4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

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  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 14
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Please respond in a respectful manner :tup:

    Yet you start your post off condescending? I get more than enough exercise, my job requires me to be on my feet all day. I don't have a cushy sit down job.
    NG1313 wrote: »
    The problem was that they had the option to stick that dragon-punch in there in the first place. No one here is stupid enough to say that it's a good thing to have something blocked and getting punished - why would you think that??????

    You mean like every other street fighter other than SF3? How is it a problem that characters have DP as an option? It wasn't a problem in those games. Why is it a problem now?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    you don't seem to know why blocking a dp is bad.

    As for the latter, the dude literally wrote blocking DP is a bad thing ^ right there above. I want to know why, as that dictates in order to do the action of blocking a DP you must actually block a DP, which leaves Ryu -24 for light DP and that's his best case scenario. I'm probably being a little stubborn here since I'm sure he means attempting to bait a DP and failing, in which case I'd still disagree that baiting a DP is riskier than the defending actually doing the DP.

    I'm open to ideas and changing my opinion but there hasn't been a single convincing argument yet as to why invincible DP is a problem in this game, not when the offense is as stong as it is and the punishment of whiffed/blocked DP is as severe as it is. I'd be with you if they were safe on block or had unpunishable recovery or were just straight up OP.

    Then you probably get more physical exercise than me! I've started to walk to work so I'm gettin' up there too though... It's almost 2 kilometers each way ;)

    I regard it as a change of rules, and I would definitely claim that it has indeed been a problem because there have always been top-tier and bottom-tier characters in SF including when it comes to wake-up - personally I think this is a good direction to take, and besides that I think it's bullshit that at any time the "shoryuken-character" can knock you on your feet while you were pressing your advantage - it's just total bullshit in my opinion... Rather than working oneself out of a bad situation these characters could simply say "Hey! Shoooooryuken.....?? No? (blocked)"... It was just bullshit in my opinion. I did use those shoryus and so did my opponents but now in this new landscape of rules I think it's a much more civilized game. The most important thing is that it has to have a cost to make a call-out like a shoryuken so you can't just freely do call-outs the entire time, sort of like poker.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    I dunno, I don't see it as a problem maybe because I'm so used to it. I think it's a good design decision because it's meant to keep characters off who otherwise get up in that ass and stay there. Forever. Even since the SF2 days. No one wants to be a shoto in the corner against ST DeeJay. It's painful and DP is the only answer and even that doesn't work out so well in your favor because it's easy to lose the rock paper scissors game. That's pretty much how I see SF5 now, unless you're willing to spend the meter to risk getting CC on whiff or block, which is pretty expensive to get a combo busted out on you.

    I also suppose a lot of this comes from playing a character with no reversal options in the last 8 or so years. In 4, it was infuriating that I had to almost always respect everyone's wake up game (especially when they had meter) but no one had to respect mine. Sure, you could argue that the playing field is now balanced, and I definitely agree to an extent, however I feel having a good defense to balance out offense is important, otherwise, it's all offense. I find it more uncivil, actually, that now you don't have to respect someone on wake up or during frame traps unlike before, when I had to respect my opponent's defense and think more rather than get in a groove during advantage and stay there. Had I a reversal back in 4, people would've had to respect my wake up a little bit more than they did before. Even if it was just a little bit, it would have gone a long way, because at some point they might have backed off a little bit from just the threat that Vega might reversal and give me enough room to put the counter offense on.

    I really wouldn't care about meterless reversal if v.reversal actually did something.

    OTOH, walking to work is good for you, I've had to do it quite a few times and it definitely pays off. :)
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,432
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)

    They didn't "haphazardly remove invul", they remove invul from frame 1 on medium DPs and separated DPs in strike invul and throw invul ones. Have you read the patch notes?
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,340
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)

    They didn't "haphazardly remove invul", they remove invul from frame 1 on medium DPs and separated DPs in strike invul and throw invul ones. Have you read the patch notes?

    And how is that not haphazardly removing invul exactly?
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 14
    Yeah walking to work is a slow progress but I'm appreciative of it still =)

    I have to agree that say between Cammy and Ryu where Cammy has a lot of offense, it would make sense for Ryu to have a good defense. I think that along with "that defense" there came just the undesired option to throw out these "wildcard reversals" at any point in time. I agree that it's not exactly an easy issue to balance the rules of the game around but I'm enjoying it a lot now that when I knock-down Akuma or Cammy they will have to spend their meter in order to prevent me from pressing my advantage after my successful knockdown.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    edited March 14
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    1. How do you attempt to balance the dp with respect to the fact that vortex is nearly gone as a way to punish dp heavily (in sf4 and older school streetfighters you could lose the round easily if you get your dp punished into big damage and a vortex option) the "vortex option" is mostly gone now outside the corner, so that makes reversals stronger.

    How are reversals stronger? In SF5 you can still lose the round easily if you get your DP punished into big damage. CC for 40% on whiff DP isn't a thing?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    2. How do you balance the fact that confirming into CA/big damage move aka rog v trigger/cammy v trigger is much stronger with max damage being a better option nowadays than simply doing setups, and that meterless invincibles give certain characters free CA almost every round, while still having good defense.

    I don't understand what you mean by this? The former example of Rog, he isn't doing any of that off a reversal, he does that off stomp punishes. From what I recall, he doesn't even have a reversal?

    If it's really a problem, then remove super cancel from reversal moves. Ryu would still be able to super cancel off a fireball from a well placed c.MK xx HDK during footsies and get great damage. Cammy from c.MK xx SA xx CA.

    On the other hand, there is the benefit of the meta changing when characters like Ryu can super cancel off DP. It means you need to think about the match and how you approach it more once they have a full stock and you can't mindlessly meaty on wakeup without taking an enormous risk. That's kind of the point to an evolving meta game. Been that way since ST. If Ryu has super, then don't throw a fireball since that's an easy reaction for Ryu. The player who took that risk made a mistake and paid for it.

    It's the same for Alpha 3, if they have v-ism, then you need to think about what you do because activation gives them invincibility and a lot of damage for a risky poke, fireball, meaty, or jump in.

    Same for CvS2, any number of grooves have a tool that once you have meter for, changes the meta and you need to adapt.

    The point is, you need to adapt, and if they have meter and you know they can do that, then you need to think about the risk vs reward.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    3. How do you balance the fact that it's much harder to safely bait a dp because of the fact that you almost always have to block the dp thanks to quick getup giving the attacker very few plus frames, if any.

    What the hell do you mean? Ryu's best DP on block scenario is -24. If that's not enough positive frames for you, then you should quit fighting games. That's a free CC for 40% right there.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    4. How do you balance the DP when almost all knockdowns give you 3 wakeup timings and 2 spacings to play against... while also having to deal with dp?

    ???? What does invincible DP have to do with wake up timings? If anything, that's a nerf to DP since you can quick rise and the defender is at less advantage than older games when DP rewarded hard knock downs.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    5. How do you balance non standard knockdown moves being much harder to meaty because of fewer active frames to meaty with on the whole, as well as much easier to time reversals.

    Add more active frames to normals. IMO, this has nothing to do with DP, simply the fact that 2 active frames is garbage in general and makes for a shitty fighting game. There should be more active frames on normals across the board. Regardless of how many active frames you have, invincible DP will still win, it just means the attacker is less likely to whiff and a dropped reversal attempt forces the defender into block state instead of free punish state from whiffed meaty.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Most of these become balanced when you apply "requires meter" to the example. But in this case you are arguing "doesn't require meter" so how do you balance that within the context of the things I've just stated above?

    I have answers to most of them but no one would like most of them and no one has been willing to even talk about the subject so I've just kept my thoughts to myself.

    Nope. The only one that changes is 2, since spending a meter stocks means you can't super cancel, which means the meta revolving around the threat of the defender is completely gone and the attacker has full advantage, especially when at a meter advantage and especially since that means they get to build meter as well while the defender doesn't as they defend.

    Talking doesn't seem to be getting through to you so maybe video will. In this video i am playing Chun versus various baddies at v94 in california at arcade vanilla streetfighter 4.

    Notice in the first match that every time I knock down my opponent I stay just out of range of their wakeup dp and wakeup throw and I still have the option of walkup throw or, make them block a fireball, or make them block a normal such as sweep or cr.mk. I'm able to keep pressure on my opponent without even doing anything a lot of the time.

    The ambiguous spacing that I'm able to occupy over and over again on my opponents wakeup in the first match is not available for the most part in sf5.

    In those games you can clearly see that were my opponent to try to dp me, he would wiff, at least half the time. He almost never has the ability to just throw me on his wakeup. I'm almost never in a position where I have to block a dp instead of making it wiff. My position here is much stronger in general on knockdown. It's like how it was in oldschool streetfighter.

    In sf5 however that same situation forces me to be point blank in order to be any kind of scary. I can't be scary from outside point blank range.

    No one is saying that blocking a dp isn't a good situation to be in. I said that having to be in a position where I have to block the dp instead of being able to make it wiff... is the bad position. The position in sf5 is very binary and has no nuance to it at all. That makes it better for reversals because it's harder to "safely" get in their heads about what they should and shouldn't do.

    Anyways, the video:

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,432
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)

    They didn't "haphazardly remove invul", they remove invul from frame 1 on medium DPs and separated DPs in strike invul and throw invul ones. Have you read the patch notes?

    And how is that not haphazardly removing invul exactly?

    Because it's not random and makes sense?
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Dime_x wrote: »
    In sf5 however that same situation forces me to be point blank in order to be any kind of scary. I can't be scary from outside point blank range.

    No one is saying that blocking a dp isn't a good situation to be in. I said that having to be in a position where I have to block the dp instead of being able to make it wiff... is the bad position. The position in sf5 is very binary and has no nuance to it at all. That makes it better for reversals because it's harder to "safely" get in their heads about what they should and shouldn't do.

    I haven't seen people in my local scene being forced to play point blank. When they do, they're usually abusing a character who has a poor wake up game and no reversal. I also don't see why you can't be scary from outside point blank range, since last I checked Chun had decent range on her crouching kicks and can hit confirm off them. I don't play Chun though so I'm not all that familiar with her, I might be wrong on her range. I don't see why you'd ever be forced into blocking a DP, that should and would be a choice you make as the attacker since you're the one at the advantage there.

    Birdie can (or used to be able to) be outside of that position and use s.MK to harass with. A jump attempt will get hit by a number of AA options. A reversal attempt will be CC or punished regardless. Vega can harass with light pokes, trying to jump out means air throw or AA. Karin can harass with s.LK and s.MK and AA if they try to jump out. I see a lot of tools that can be used out of those ranges, and mixing it up with doing nothing to bait a DP is possible. IMO, it's not as likely because again, DP is risky so I don't see a lot of people use it, even in S1 when characters like Ryu actually had one.

    I'll just throw it out there, that Daigo was thrown five times in a row in the corner in a tournament and that was S1 Ryu with an actual meterless DP. It must be pretty strong for him to never use it once during those 5 successful throw attempts by his opponent?

    Anyway, I'm not going to convince you anytime soon, but at least we can have a discussion on our opinions, so let's be more civil about it ok?
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,340
    edited March 15
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)

    They didn't "haphazardly remove invul", they remove invul from frame 1 on medium DPs and separated DPs in strike invul and throw invul ones. Have you read the patch notes?

    And how is that not haphazardly removing invul exactly?

    Because it's not random and makes sense?

    It doesn't make sense though; the solutions that I mentioned are much better since they give both sides some of what they want: DPs retain full invul, but attackers have many options to deal. The way they did it is just kinda silly tbh
    Post edited by drunkards_walk on
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    Alkipot wrote: »
    "You shouldn't be able to pressure me, only I should be able to pressure you! Having to block like everyone else is unfair! Fake news!"

    - Shotos

    wanna play a ft5?
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,432
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)

    They didn't "haphazardly remove invul", they remove invul from frame 1 on medium DPs and separated DPs in strike invul and throw invul ones. Have you read the patch notes?

    And how is that not haphazardly removing invul exactly?

    Because it's not random and makes sense?

    It doesn't make sense though; the solutions that I mentioned are much better since they give both sides some of what they want: DPs retain full invul, but attackers have many options to deal. The way they did it is just kinda silly tbh

    DPs right now can blow up both throw attempts and frame traps with a 3f+ gap, they just have to choose which version to use.
    The true question is, should the defender have tools that let him escape any sort of guess? Should he be able to escape perfect meaties on wake-up at any time? Capcom decided they shouldn't and therefore shifted invul to frame 3. This is not laziness, it's a design choice, whether you approve it or not.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    edited March 15
    Dime x further demonstrating his lack of understanding and his non-existent shimmy game
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    edited March 15
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Dime x further demonstrating his lack of understanding and his non-existent shimmy game

    I know how to delay button. People have been doing this since sf4 wakeup ultras were owning everyone in the first 3 weeks the game came out.
    Go1 using it at final round ALOT, with Chun.

    It's good but it doesn't make what I said invalid. It allows for the defender to easily jump out of wakeup pressure and it allows the defender to easily jab and steal a turn on wakeup, it also invites backdash on wakeup which is already a decent choice because of a throw threat option on wakeup.


    I'm just surprised it took someone this long to try and use delay buttons as a counterpoint. I'm not going to argue your guys point for you but I saw this argument coming months ago.

    And it's still a bad argument months later because of all the options it invites into a scenario that should be very numerically advantaged for the attacker.
    Anywho, moving on, a frame analysis of how delay button works in sf5:

    Ryu ex dp hits on 3rd frame. Delay button will therefore need to be done on frame 4. That means that delay button hits at its fastest, in ryus sixth wakeup frame. Jump startup is 4 frames so jump beats it. Throw startup is 5 frames so your delay button gets thrown since you can't CR.lk with throw tech.
    Backdash will be in its 6th frame of startup by the time 3 frame attack comes out.
    Delay button doesn't win against people that know their options. It becomes one of many options and that dwindles down the attackers chances of doing samage since the roulette wheel gets more and more options added to it.

    Shimmy is largely unavailable in most quickrise knockdown circumstances where the attacker has to dash up to get close enough because of the lack of plus frames available against quick rise for most of the cast.

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Dime_x wrote: »
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Dime x further demonstrating his lack of understanding and his non-existent shimmy game

    Ryu ex dp hits on 3rd frame. Delay button will therefore need to be done on frame 4. That means that delay button hits at its fastest, in ryus sixth wakeup frame. Jump startup is 4 frames so jump beats it. Throw startup is 5 frames so your delay button gets thrown since you can't CR.lk with throw tech.
    Backdash will be in its 6th frame of startup by the time 3 frame attack comes out.
    Delay button doesn't win against people that know their options. It becomes one of many options and that dwindles down the attackers chances of doing samage since the roulette wheel gets more and more options added to it.

    But I don't think these are all win or lose situations. At least with Ryu I believe it's possible to delay with st.LK and still parry if they jumped over you.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,813
    edited March 15
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Alkipot wrote: »
    "You shouldn't be able to pressure me, only I should be able to pressure you! Having to block like everyone else is unfair! Fake news!"

    - Shotos

    wanna play a ft5?

    Damn I wish I was good enough to challenge for FT5 everyone I think is saying shit.

    I would end up getting bodied and get pissed.



    On the DP talk I am not even going to talk about it because I straight up don't understand how they can be such a problem for people.
    [SFV] Ken
    [USFIV] Ken
    [GG-XRD] Sol
    [Tekken 7] Dragunov Training mode
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    edited March 15
    Valoon wrote: »
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Alkipot wrote: »
    "You shouldn't be able to pressure me, only I should be able to pressure you! Having to block like everyone else is unfair! Fake news!"

    - Shotos

    wanna play a ft5?

    Damn I wish I was good enough to challenge for FT5 everyone I think is saying shit.

    I would end up getting bodied and get pissed.



    On the DP talk I am not even going to talk about it because I straight up don't understand how they can be such a problem for people.

    "Cuz when i just want to meaty it's a free option to escape from pressure"

    That's the mentality you would be arguing against, you've already shown that you're smarter than me by deciding not to waste your time

    I feel shame
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited March 15
    I laughed, but:
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    "Cuz when i just want to meaty it's a free option to escape from pressure"

    is kinda a strawman since
    1. just having a meterless DP shuts down many reactable meaty setups (including most safe jumps since IIRC S1's meterless DPs were all 3f startup)
    2. DPs are a lot better vs (fake) blockstrings than they are vs meaties anways, since it requires a ton of mental presence to constantly stagger your blockstrings in an unpredictable manner without autopiloting. it's comparatively easier to avoid autopiloting oki since you have much more time to consider your next option.
    3. even if you hardly ever use your DP it automatically creates opportunities for you to try to escape or steal your turn (unless your opponent isn't staggering their pressure at all in which case you just blow them up)

    granted, all of that just means DPs are GOOD, it doesn't prove that they're broken or impossible to balance around. the reasons I don't think they're broken:
    1. staggering pressure is necessary anyways, as you've said yourself many times
    2. CC punishes are so massive as to almost single-handedly ensure a loss in many circumstances (this one is a no-brainer)
    3. characters without meterless DPs are often (though not always) given enough other tools to compensate

    Post edited by Quark on
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    edited March 15
    Quark wrote: »
    I laughed, but:
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    "Cuz when i just want to meaty it's a free option to escape from pressure"

    is kinda a strawman since
    1. just having a meterless DP shuts down many reactable meaty setups (including most safe jumps since IIRC S1's meterless DPs were all 3f startup)
    2. DPs are a lot better vs (fake) blockstrings than they are vs meaties anways, since it requires a ton of mental presence to constantly stagger your blockstrings in an unpredictable manner without autopiloting. it's comparatively easier to avoid autopiloting oki since you have much more time to consider your next option.
    3. even if you hardly ever use your DP it automatically creates opportunities for you to try to escape or steal your turn (unless your opponent isn't staggering their pressure at all in which case you just blow them up)

    granted, all of that just proves means DPs are GOOD, it doesn't prove that they're broken or impossible to balance around. the reasons I don't think they're broken:
    1. staggering pressure is necessary anyways, as you've said yourself many times
    2. CC punishes are so massive as to almost single-handedly ensure a loss in many circumstances (this one is a no-brainer)
    3. characters without meterless DPs are often (though not always) given enough other tools to compensate

    Can you please Bold and Italicize the point covering how it's already necessary to stagger pressure?
    Post edited by MochaLatte on
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited March 15
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Can you please Bold and Italicize the point covering how it's already necessary to stagger pressure?

    how's this

    3FehNmzqkmzr.png

    :)
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,486 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Shoto tears still delicious.


    Meanwhile Cammy got an air throw and frame one upper body invincibility. Non fireball shoto does it better

    900 health for Akuma is cool. At least shotos can late dp after fireballs now which is what I figured would happen

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

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  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Shoto tears still delicious.


    Meanwhile Cammy got an air throw and frame one upper body invincibility. Non fireball shoto does it better

    900 health for Akuma is cool. At least shotos can late dp after fireballs now which is what I figured would happen

    Ryu got some buttons back so my tears are tears of joy.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • AlkipotAlkipot Purse first, ass last Joined: Posts: 1,759
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Alkipot wrote: »
    "You shouldn't be able to pressure me, only I should be able to pressure you! Having to block like everyone else is unfair! Fake news!"

    - Shotos

    wanna play a ft5?

    Haha, holy shit, my tongue-in-cheek comment actually got one of those salty "has-nothing-to-do-with-the-topic-fight-me-bro!" comments. Dem hurt feewings! XD

    source.gif

    On topic, now would you look at that! Anti-air DPs got a buff (which is fine)! Meaties still beat meterless wake-ups and blockstring mashed DPs still get rekt, as they should. Good DP changes.
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, Birdie)
    Watch my terrible SFV/For Honor/UFC2 play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    edited March 15
    I'm totally fine and happy with the DP changes and buffs in the new patch,

    Now shotos can stop whining about the "AA problem" and we can see their true colors. Will they continue to complain about the DP? They've now been pigeonholed and panted into a corner. AA DP won't get stuffed anymore at all as an AA (never should have, but it was always a meh point anyways) but they still need that EX to stop strike/throw mixups.

    They can use L srk as a call out against throws, but that will lose to meaties hard so there's still a mixup.

    These changes are literally PERFECT.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    edited March 15
    Shoto tears still delicious.


    Tears of joy, I got my anti air back
    Alkipot wrote: »


    Haha, holy shit, my tongue-in-cheek comment actually got one of those salty "has-nothing-to-do-with-the-topic-fight-me-bro!" comments. Dem hurt feewings! XD

    It wasn't just a tongue and cheek comment, it was your manifested butthurt over getting hit by dps
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    Season 2.5 patch confirmed godlike. Everyone comes away happy.

    Balance is restored :)

    Only had to get called scrub 2.5 billion times to get it though :rofl:

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    the fact that capcom agrees with you doesn't mean you're right, dime
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    Quark wrote: »
    the fact that capcom agrees with you doesn't mean you're right, dime

    As your posting logic and rebuttals tend to go quark:

    It also doesn't mean I'm wrong.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 99
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »
    the fact that capcom agrees with you doesn't mean you're right, dime

    As your posting logic and rebuttals tend to go quark:

    It also doesn't mean I'm wrong.

    Enough with the online verbal violence guys. You need to get a match.;)
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »
    the fact that capcom agrees with you doesn't mean you're right, dime

    As your posting logic and rebuttals tend to go quark:

    It also doesn't mean I'm wrong.

    Enough with the online verbal violence guys. You need to get a match.;)

    Quarkipoo and I get along pretty well, we just don't see eye to eye on this topic, it's probably strained things a bit or a lot... idk. But dimes gotta be dime and dime will always be dime and dime does as dime has always done and always will do: express my opinion and not give one rats ass if people agree or not.

    You can either be the type of person that likes this unbridled honesty, or the type of person that doesn't. Most people don't. But I knew that decades ago and made my choice back then about who I would be as a person.


    Never been regretful because I don't see the logic in towing other people's lines if it doesn't get me anywhwere.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited March 15
    no verbal violence here, just some harmless jabs. it was an apt comeback since I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

    I'd be happy to play @Dime_x some time in the future but I'm on a break from FGs currently
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    I'm always down to play anyone. Though I'd rather play people at a game I love like skullgirls rather than one I tolerate like sf5.

    The Australian connection owns most attempts to play any opponents outside Australia/South Asia region. But I'm totally willing to try and watch some molasses for a game or 2
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    I think the changes are good. Heavy DP is fully invincible and will have a lot of risk to beat a meaty or frame trap if the attacker does nothing since it has huge recovery. Medium retains AA and anyone trying light should be punished for being retarded. This is a really good balance and gives defending characters with a reversal a chance to defend. Now, if only my character actually had one, lol!
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,772
    Unless I'm reading the change notes wrong, heavy dp isn't fully invincible... not on frame 1 at least. It says frame 3-6
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • javertjavert 'sup Joined: Posts: 1,148
    MP DP being invulnerable to airborne strikes was pretty much what the doctor ordered. The HP strike invulnerability was a little overkill but having throws to beat it means it is still viable to pressure them, especially by grapplers.

    AFAIK the wakeup throw invincible frames can't cover all the startup, so it is still viable to throw them on their wakeup without HP DP covering all options, is this right? Is that throw attempt beaten by jab?
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    H Shoryuken attacks – added attack and projectile invincibility

    I only saw that. Didn't notice that they added little notes per character for when they're invincible. I'm not sure what the intended use is, since that means they're still not going to work for wake up or frame traps tighter than 2 frames. I guess they'll work for mistimed meaty fireballs.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 99
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I'm always down to play anyone. Though I'd rather play people at a game I love like skullgirls rather than one I tolerate like sf5.

    The Australian connection owns most attempts to play any opponents outside Australia/South Asia region. But I'm totally willing to try and watch some molasses for a game or 2

    If you only "tolerate" sf5, why do you bother posting here? Now we have to "tolerate" you.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I'm totally fine and happy with the DP changes and buffs in the new patch,

    Now shotos can stop whining about the "AA problem" and we can see their true colors. Will they continue to complain about the DP? They've now been pigeonholed and panted into a corner. AA DP won't get stuffed anymore at all as an AA (never should have, but it was always a meh point anyways) but they still need that EX to stop strike/throw mixups.

    They can use L srk as a call out against throws, but that will lose to meaties hard so there's still a mixup.

    These changes are literally PERFECT.

    Why so hostile?
    CFN ScootMagee
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    I think they found a really nice solution for shoryukens but why does Cammy and Juri get one too? :) Especially Cammy who is already super-strong in offense and neutral and now equally strong as Ryu in defense too? :s
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,626
    Because Cammy is a walking anti-air cannon since Beta 1 and needs to have anti-air propertys on all her moves.
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Lili, Eliza
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 16
    Cammy having shoryus in the exact same league as the shotos is way overkill in my opinion. She's stronger than Ryu in offense and neutral, and they're tied for defense. 100 less health-power does not make up for it.

    She used to be an assassin in the story, didn't she? So when an assassin's cover is blown, it should pose some problems for them. But Cammy at least since SF4 has been able to stalk her prey, and reversal shoryu and carry on even when "her cover is blown" i.e. she didn't successfully make her way in - she can still bust the shoryu and insist on making her way in until she's out of life... That's just a really terrible design to me...
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,626
    Cammy has been able to stalk and hunt her prey down since every game after ST.
    Her DP was better than Shoto DP's in a number of games. Including CVS and SFxT.

    Meanwhile, we have 3S Ryu in SFV and people ask why his fireball sucks.
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Lili, Eliza
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Cammy gets it because that's her reversal. Always has been since ST.

    @Cipher, even in ST Cammy can stalk and hunt her prey pretty well. Her DP is arguably better in that game because you can space it and make it safe on block which can be impossible for the shotos to do because the lack of range on them in comparison. Only thing it doesn't handle well is fireball traps, in comparison the shoto's DP does work in fireball trap situations. Unfortunately she doesn't have enough tools to get around the fireball game but in the footsies game she does well. That's practically the entire reason she's low tier in that game, there are too many characters with good fireball tools that skew the matches against her.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,340
    SF5, the game where a meaty will beat a DP
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,486 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    SF5, the game where a meaty will beat a DP

    Happened to certain shotos and Dudley in 3S also

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • javertjavert 'sup Joined: Posts: 1,148
    SF5, the game where a meaty will beat a DP

    ...and finally, all is right in the world.
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