RE:Should Coaching Be Banned in the FGC?

gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
My response to : Should Coaching Be Banned in the FGC?


Be it during a match or in between sets, coaching *is* cheating because a 2df game in its essence is a *mind game*, and will never be a physical challenge[1].
You definitely have things like execution and muscle memory as physical obstacles to overcome, but that's for novice players only. You should already be past those issues to even consider yourself a mediocre/casual player. So What's left is purely a technical, psychological battle in which *mind games* decide the outcome.

Patience, guessing, reading, conditioning, baiting, concealing, holding on your ace, adapting, memory, reflexes[2], taking risks, awareness, resources monitoring, stress management, framedata/hitboxes/bugs knowledge, knowing your character, knowing your opponent's character, playing ignorance, playing the victim, playing low, keeping background tabs on your opponents, studying tapes of yourself, approaching with the right mindset, maintaining that mindset, getting over bad habits, thick skin, luck, modesty, grace, faith...etc, none of that stuff is physical now is it?

I see that it's clear as day that two people combining their minds' power against one person is unfair in many levels. That same person is now feeling an additional pressure when they realize that they have to beat two and a half persons[3].

And then there is the question, who is coaching the coach?


[1] Of course unless you have an illness or a disability preventing you from playing normally.
[2] One could argue that this is physical and can be trained as, say, execution. But since it happens mostly in the mind and is extremely hard to obtain when your mind is weak, I'll keep it in the psychological list.
[3] Because the coach has far less strain on him that he can evaluate stuff better than an engaged person.
NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
@ggaclassics
"A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
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Comments

  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 826
    edited January 27
    gaagaa wrote: »
    I see that it's clear as day that two people combining their minds' power against one person is unfair in many levels. That same person is now feeling an additional pressure when they realize that they have to beat two and a half persons.

    What the fuck are you talking about?

  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    Greenwood wrote: »
    What the fuck are you talking about?

    Asking specific questions makes your life easier. I can't answer you because I don't know "what the fuck are you talking about?"

    The presence of a coach, alone, creates more room for metagames and can have an effect on the other guy even if the coach doesn't interfere. Just the fact that there's a possibility for a certain someone to help your opponent makes you think about other stuff and can distract you from the game or push you to commit mistakes.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    Do you compete?
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    Well they aren't coaching in the middle of a match, so I don't see the harm in it. The coach is probably not going to have much to say unless his man is losing anyway, and I see no problem with giving some advice to a player in a stressful situation who might need it.

    The only thing I'm against is using coaching to disrupt the flow of the match or break the other player's concentration. But if both players are sitting away from each other like they did at Capcup, then it's not a big deal.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    edited January 29
    Do you compete?
    Back in the day, I did.
    Well they aren't coaching in the middle of a match, so I don't see the harm in it.
    My point is coaching=cheating since fighting games are closer to a chess match than they are to boxing.

    Someone commented this on that vid :
    "A few years ago, I overheard a commentator saying that I needed to stop jumping. So I stopped jumping and immediately did better. I lost the set but took a match and almost took the second against who I feel was a far better opponent. Not really coaching per se, but that little piece of inadvertent advice was sooooooooo helpful."
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,139
    Is only one person still holding the stick/pad? If your answer is yes. Then you're only fighting one person. It's knowledge and skill vs knowledge and skill. If you can be that damn good as a player you would hang whether it's against one person with a coach or one person on their own.
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Do you compete?
    Back in the day, I did.
    Well they aren't coaching in the middle of a match, so I don't see the harm in it.
    My point is coaching=cheating since fighting games are closer to a chess match than they are to boxing.

    Someone commented this on that vid :
    "A few years ago, I overheard a commentator saying that I needed to stop jumping. So I stopped jumping and immediately did better. I lost the set but took a match and almost took the second against who I feel was a far better opponent. Not really coaching per se, but that little piece of inadvertent advice was sooooooooo helpful."

    Was helpful advice and was something the player could have figured out on their own had they thought about it. Ultimately didn't mean shit because the other player was still better anyways which just proves my point.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,029
    Theoretically it is cheating but in practice it's probably a big "who cares"
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    edited January 30
    Fighting games are nothing like chess, stop it.
    Post edited by crotchpuncha on
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • RichterRichter ~~~00~~~ Joined: Posts: 1,870
    "Pick your shit!"
    -Fighting game coaching 101
    coffee.gifapplaud.gifkarate.gifthumbsup.gifwtf.gifpray.gifsmokin.gifparty.gifcool2.gifchinasmile.gifnunchuck.gifsad.gifeek.pngmad.pngcybot.gif
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    Is only one person still holding the stick/pad? If your answer is yes. Then you're only fighting one person. It's knowledge and skill vs knowledge and skill.
    Not true everytime. I'll use an extreme example to elaborate.
    2 Newbies playing each other with one of them incorrectly abusing the sweep. If you interfere and tell him "ditch the sweep", no matter what happens next, it's a completely different outcome.
    Now use the laws of proportionality and apply the above example on high level play.
    Was helpful advice and was something the player could have figured out on their own had they thought about it. Ultimately didn't mean shit because the other player was still better anyways which just proves my point.

    Well he did not figure that on his own. Had it not been for that extra bit of outside info, the challenge would've remained the same for the other guy. But it didn't, and that's crucial. Heck the outcome was clearly different; instead of an insulting free 0-2, it's a 1-2 loss with the last game being close. I can't help but imagine the high chances of it ending differently in a ft3, or yet, a ft10 set.

    People seem to project everything on Street Fighter and high level play.
    What about other games? What about the average Joe?
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,279
    You can coach all you want. It still is a 1v1 game. Last I checked, you can't give another player your controller in order for them to beat you. In other words, coaching doesn't affect anything. I'll even let your coach coach you during a game against me. You'll still lose...
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    Lol People on denial here, not even trying to formulate an argument. More or less just opinions.

    At least I got real cases from real tournaments : Julio Vs PR Balrog.

    PR Balrog came from losers. He won all 6 rounds straight to reset the bracket. While he was feeling himself and enjoying his performance, Julio looked like he was going to piss in his pants. He was that shattered! Julio then made a 10sec phone call, and the rest is history. He easily won 5 constitutive rounds before losing one round, which btw was close, and wining the 6th and last one closing the tournament. the match had flipped 180° to Julio's favor even though PR had all the momentum after the reset.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Lol People on denial here, not even trying to formulate an argument. More or less just opinions.

    At least I got real cases from real tournaments : Julio Vs PR Balrog.

    PR Balrog came from losers. He won all 6 rounds straight to reset the bracket. While he was feeling himself and enjoying his performance, Julio looked like he was going to piss in his pants. He was that shattered! Julio then made a 10sec phone call, and the rest is history. He easily won 5 constitutive rounds before losing one round, which btw was close, and wining the 6th and last one closing the tournament. the match had flipped 180° to Julio's favor even though PR had all the momentum after the reset.
    I'm not saying coaching can't change the outcome of a match, I'm saying I'm okay with that. So you can keep giving examples where coaching changed the outcome all day and it won't make a difference.

    I mean, to me this is really an issue for the highest level players to decide upon. They are the ones with a lot of money on the line.
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,139
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Is only one person still holding the stick/pad? If your answer is yes. Then you're only fighting one person. It's knowledge and skill vs knowledge and skill.
    Not true everytime. I'll use an extreme example to elaborate.
    2 Newbies playing each other with one of them incorrectly abusing the sweep. If you interfere and tell him "ditch the sweep", no matter what happens next, it's a completely different outcome.
    Now use the laws of proportionality and apply the above example on high level play.
    Was helpful advice and was something the player could have figured out on their own had they thought about it. Ultimately didn't mean shit because the other player was still better anyways which just proves my point.

    Well he did not figure that on his own. Had it not been for that extra bit of outside info, the challenge would've remained the same for the other guy. But it didn't, and that's crucial. Heck the outcome was clearly different; instead of an insulting free 0-2, it's a 1-2 loss with the last game being close. I can't help but imagine the high chances of it ending differently in a ft3, or yet, a ft10 set.

    People seem to project everything on Street Fighter and high level play.
    What about other games? What about the average Joe?

    First example:
    Good. The newbies are learning how to get better. Your example is very extreme to he point that it's irrelevant. Either way it's not unfair. Telling someone to stop sweeping or jumping is just pointing out the obvious. If those kinds of people are in a tournament and yet still need to be told those things then they probably have zero chance of making it far anyways. So of not in a tournament then they're playing casually where it's a learning environment.


    Second example:
    So? The better player still won,right? You don't know how a longer set would turn out. But it would be safe to assume the better player would win every time. Is it still cheating if someone gets sent to losers only to face the same person again later on in grand finals, but between those matches they studied the match up and player online as well as getting coached by other people and then they go on to beat that same person that beat them before and win the tournament? No it's not cheating. And there's no difference between it being between matches and between sets. As far as I'm concerned, the victor earns the win no matter what. The better player wins. The ability to adapt is what matters.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    you can keep giving examples where coaching changed the outcome all day and it won't make a difference.
    You can deny examples where coaching changed the outcome all day and it won't make a difference. !!!
    I'm not saying coaching can't change the outcome of a match, I'm saying I'm okay with that.
    Sounds like you're starting to acknowledge it's a cheat. I don't have a problem if you're okay with the idea knowing its implications. But to claim that it's not in any way, shape, or form a cheat, then we have a problem.
    Your example is very extreme to he point that it's irrelevant...Telling someone to stop sweeping or jumping is just pointing out the obvious. If those kinds of people are in a tournament...
    It's extreme, but not irrelevant. How is it irrelevant? is it because it's a counter example to what you've said? or is it just because?
    What you called "obvious" is really really subjective. What's clear to someone might not be to someone else.
    Also, that example didn't mention anything about a being in a tournament or being under any kind of pressure. You just like to assume that. Just two people playing each other. What could happen between those two could still happen to any pro players but in a much lesser degree that it might not be noticeable.

    32243083760_71d9a19f72_o_d.png

    The better player still won,right? You don't know how a longer set would turn out. But it would be safe to assume the better player would win every time.
    You also don't know how that would turn out. Sure it's safe to assume, but no one really knows. And that doesn't change the fact that it went from an insulting, free 0-2 loss to a satisfying 1-2 performance thanks to an overheard tip.
    Is it still cheating if someone gets sent to losers only to face the same person again later on in grand finals, but between those matches they studied the match up and player online as well as getting coached by other people and then they go on to beat that same person that beat them before and win the tournament?
    Again you assume tournament settings, you assume it's double elimination (ever heard of single elimination? or Round Robin, where you play someone just once?), you assume there's internet connection available, you assume players have all the time they need to do research between their calls (if you lose your winners finals, you have 30sec or something. Barely time to take a deep breath).
    Anyway, if they do it before/after their matches/sets, i.e. the whole period when they're not engaged with the opponent in an official match, then okay by me, take advantage of whatever. But during an official match, they've got to do it alone, adapting and everything.


    Still waiting for that solid argument.

    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    gaagaa wrote: »
    You can deny examples where coaching changed the outcome all day and it won't make a difference. !!!
    I haven't denied any examples of that. I even said that I'm not denying that.
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Sounds like you're starting to acknowledge it's a cheat. I don't have a problem if you're okay with the idea knowing its implications. But to claim that it's not in any way, shape, or form a cheat, then we have a problem.
    I don't believe it is a cheat, just like I don't think reviewing notes on a player or a matchup is a cheat, or popping off and breaking the other player's focus is a cheat.

    If the community has reached some sort of agreement and allowed it in tournaments, then it can't be a cheating. A cheat is something that is against the rules.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    It's not cheating because its not against the rules. Hardly the only games with coaching in them.

    Until you can convince someone it should be against the rules it's not cheating.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • ottomaticottomatic a totally real person who really exists, really Joined: Posts: 244
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Anyway, if they do it before/after their matches/sets, i.e. the whole period when they're not engaged with the opponent in an official match, then okay by me, take advantage of whatever. But during an official match, they've got to do it alone, adapting and everything.
    I had a long argument but then I realized something ... Are you talking about mid play coaching? Not between matches? While the timer is running down and life bars aren't fully depleted? That's what you have a problem with? Good luck getting rid of that. In all the chaos with all the cheering and chanting, some idiot in the back yells "RTSD!" and the player starts playing more offensively is that considered coaching? Because you are effectively saying to get rid of that shit too.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    ottomatic wrote: »
    Um no. Guess I have to clarify a couple of things.

    Let me start with explaining the opposite. You're not "engaged" (that's the term I used above) is when you are not called to play. There are others playing their own sets, all the while you're waiting for your turn to come. In this period of not being "engaged", do whatever! I don't have a problem.
    Now you get called, some timer somewhere starts ticking, you plug-in your controller, you shake hands, and the Character Select screen pops up. Now the problems start.

    Of course if you shout advise to your guy during match, the opposition will hear it too. That for me is not as bad as having a 1 to 1 talk where the coach can literally pass a detailed report of what happened, what could have been done, and/or what to do in the next match.

    I should point out that I haven't said we should ban coaching, nor did I use a title to imply that (RE: a reply to). I'm just stating that it's a cheat. What actions to take after acknowledging that? I don't care really.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28

    You've said that already. I was going to reply to that but I held myself back due... oh! guess I'll have to do it.

    It's not breaking the rules... maybe... because there are no rules for it to begin with.
    Everything starts in a mess, slowly making its way into being more and more organized. We're not there yet, that's why we're having this discussion.

    I'll use an analogy.
    Cheating is breaking the rules. Coaching isn't against the rules, thus it's not cheating.
    Crime is breaking the rules. Spitting isn't against the rules, thus it's not crime. Pretty much what you have said.

    Spitting on streets, walk lanes, walkways, or whatever is not a crime in many cities. In fact, there are no rules specifying when or how or where you should and shouldn't spit. Nobody cares about this and think it's okay until they, themselves, get affected; someone spits in front of their house or just in front of their sight.
    Is it classless? yes. Is it disgusting? yes. Is it wrong? yes.
    Should spitting be criminalized? I don't think you can stop something so simple yet so prevalent.

    Spitting on public when it's a necessity/emergency/health issue knowing that it's morally wrong is not the same as spitting on public and being proud of it. The former case is being knowledgeable and considerate, the latter is being savage.
    gaagaa wrote: »
    I should point out that I haven't said we should ban coaching, nor did I use a title to imply that (RE: a reply to). I'm just stating that it's a cheat. What actions to take after acknowledging that? I don't care really.
    I never said we should start taking people to jail if they spit on the streets. I also didn't say we shouldn't. All I said is that it's wrong. In the end, I really don't care. I never thought about it before to be honest.

    The only difference in this analogy is that spitting is sometimes unavoidable, while FG coaching during a set does not reach such a point. How can it be unavoidable?

    So I hope you're not finding it odd anymore when I say coaching is cheating (read above) and when I state my disinterest in banning/unbanning/allowing coaching.
    Clearly I'm not back peddling as you have called it. If anything I'm backing it up.
    And please stop trying to bash my inelegance if you've got nothing constructive to spout.


    Repeat after me, insult tactics have never been and will never ever be arguments...




    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    edited February 2
    You can call coaching morally wrong if you'd like, but it's still not cheating. And tournaments do have rules, so I don't know what you mean by "there are no rules to begin with."

    Also, I've been places where spitting in public isn't allowed and is punishable via citation.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    edited February 2
    gaagaa wrote: »

    You've said that already. I was going to reply to that but I held myself back due... oh! guess I'll have to do it.

    It's not breaking the rules... maybe... because there are no rules for it to begin with.
    Everything starts in a mess, slowly making its way into being more and more organized. We're not there yet, that's why we're having this discussion.

    I'll use an analogy.
    Cheating is breaking the rules. Coaching isn't against the rules, thus it's not cheating.
    Crime is breaking the rules. Spitting isn't against the rules, thus it's not crime. Pretty much what you have said.

    Spitting on streets, walk lanes, walkways, or whatever is not a crime in many cities. In fact, there are no rules specifying when or how or where you should and shouldn't spit. Nobody cares about this and think it's okay until they, themselves, get affected; someone spits in front of their house or just in front of their sight.
    Is it classless? yes. Is it disgusting? yes. Is it wrong? yes.
    Should spitting be criminalized? I don't think you can stop something so simple yet so prevalent.

    Spitting on public when it's a necessity/emergency/health issue knowing that it's morally wrong is not the same as spitting on public and being proud of it. The former case is being knowledgeable and considerate, the latter is being savage.
    This so so dumb. Spitting is against the law in a lot of places, you can be fined because it's against the rules. Even still points completely irrelevant because there is nothing morally objectionable about coaching. It's not a moral issue, it's an integrity of th game issue and you haven't successfully made that argument, in fact you've done the opposite, coaching makes the event better, it raises the quality of the match and the quality of the competition.

    Besides you backed up my point, in places where spitting isn't illegal you can't be fined because it's not against the rules, thus no law was broken. There's no s against coaching thus it's not cheating. There's no maybe about it, this is a black and white issue. It's only cheating if it's against the rules. Is coaching against the rules? No? Then it's not cheating.

    What you need to do is a form a better argument as to how coaching is detrimental to the game. You've failed to do this.

    And still by calling it cheating your intentions are clear, words matter, there's no one who thinks cheating at a game is ok, thus the outcome of labeling something cheating is extreamly obvious, so yes you are back peddaling. It's very obvious you don't think it should be allowed.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    You can call coaching morally wrong if you'd like, but it's still not cheating. And tournaments do have rules, so I don't know what you mean by "there are no rules to begin with."
    I don't know of any specific coaching rules when it's allowed. Perhaps you can tell us more about it?
    Also, I've been places where spitting in public isn't allowed and is punishable via citation.
    This so so dumb. Spitting is against the law in a lot of places, you can be fined because it's against the rules.
    You think I don't know that?
    If there exists one city where spitting is not a crime, then the same implications apply, the same scenarios occur, and the same questions still stand. Should you spit there?
    And I know for a fact that there are way more places where spitting is not criminalized than places where it's punishable by law. So it takes absolutely nothing from my analogy.
    You've failed to realize that I'm not making a direct connection between the capability of spitting and coaching, but rather a correlation between the wrongness of the two.
    Spitting is overlooked, coaching is unregulated. See a pattern?
    Besides you backed up my point, in places where spitting isn't illegal you can't be fined because it's not against the rules, thus no law was broken. There's no s against coaching thus it's not cheating.
    I'm glad you made that parallel. Let me finish your thought for you.
    "in places where spitting isn't illegal you can't be fined because it's not against the rules, thus no law was broken, but it's definitely not right. There's no rules against coaching, thus it's not cheating, but just like spitting, it's not right either."
    It's only cheating if it's against the rules. Is coaching against the rules? No? Then it's not cheating.
    Yes it's against the rules. EVO 2016 banned coaching after pools.
    02_nocoaching01.jpg
    Redbull Kumite bans coaching. EVO 2017 as well.
    I don't think it banned for no reason.
    What you need to do is a form a better argument as to how coaching is detrimental to the game. You've failed to do this.
    Reread my first, second, fourth, and my sixth post. Pretty much anything I wrote shows an attempt to construct arguments and an effort to stay away from insults (unlike someone). I even included real examples (forgot to mention J.Wong vs Tokido were Wong had lost the upper hand of 0-2 match point after Mago's interference. Mago ran on stage, whispered something, and boom... Tokido vs Infiltration in grand finals. https://goo.gl/6qwdOP notice how the commentators at first mock and doubt Mago for trying to help).
    Maybe if I quote well known articles 1 2 3 that more or less agree with my views then you'd consider listening?!
    A coach doesn’t have to waste any focus while observing; they are free to look for as many key points as possible during the match. When a player looks to them, the coach can offer hard information like frame data, point out tendencies that are reoccurring throughout the match, or just reassure the player in what decisions need to be made. Small changes based on previously unknown game data or unnoticed interactions are large enough to swing an entire game from one player back to the other.
    Then there's the argument that the only reason you're making it is because you have top level players as your coach and not due to your own merit. It becomes "who you know" rather than "what you know".

    Feel free to dodge my arguments all you want but know that you haven't made one argument to assist your points. You're basically saying "no, it's not." type of phrases every time I point out something.
    coaching makes the event better, it raises the quality of the match and the quality of the competition.
    You call this an argument? IT' IS AN OPINION.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    edited February 3
    It's your opinion that spitting isn't right, just like coaching isn't right. What harm does spitting actually do besides make people wrinkle their noses? Spitting is harmless. Your analogy is fucking stupid.

    So if Evo bans coaching then it's against therules there in which case coaching would be cheating and isn't allowed. So why is this a conversation?

    You can quote all the articles you want to, I really don't care, I don't have the power to change this shit, if it's that important to you go whine to event organizers, they make the rules.

    My opinion is that being able to exacute is just as important and knowledge, if whispering something in someone's ear was all it took for them to take the crown the fighting games would be garbage, but you it's not, you actually have to perform as well. It's a combination who and what you know, and the ability to execute what you know. Fighting games have always been a big part of who you know because the quality of your competition is important. Just having a bunch of knowledge isn't going to get you to the winners circle. You didn't get there based on what and who you know but by your ability to perform.

    Ivee made lots of arguments you just don't seem to actually get what my position is.

    Oh and by the way this whole fucking thread is opinions dude.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    So you are saying it's okay to have a research team of 10 people (20, 100, or even 1 guy it's all the same) sitting behind you doing all kinds of analysis for you while you play and it will have little to no effect on your performance?
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Yes it's against the rules. EVO 2016 banned coaching after pools.
    02_nocoaching01.jpg
    Redbull Kumite bans coaching. EVO 2017 as well.
    I don't think it banned for no reason.
    It's not against the rules everywhere. And if it is against the rules, then coaching would be cheating. If it's not against the rules, then it would not be cheating.

    It would be interesting to hear how the top players at EVO feel about the no coaching rule, and also how they feel about the inconsistencies in the legality of coaching from tourney to tourney.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    edited February 3
    gaagaa wrote: »
    So you are saying it's okay to have a research team of 10 people (20, 100, or even 1 guy it's all the same) sitting behind you doing all kinds of analysis for you while you play and it will have little to no effect on your performance?
    Sure it will, but you still have to be able to execute, that's well over half the game. You have to be able to perform. Knowing is one thing, pulling it off is something else, not to mention your opponent can change tactics, or even character depending on the rule set. He could also have people coaching him, it's not like only one player in the match gets to have some advice tossed his way if that's the way things are going to be playing out. I know a lot about fighting games and how to play well, doesn't mean I do (cuz I don't).
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • IdunoIduno ...what to put here Joined: Posts: 4,747
    How should I put it, coaching sucks balls, if someone is getting gimmicked out he either needs to figure that shit out himself or look that shit up between loosers bracket matches.

    That said it'd be a complete pain in the arse to enforce any ban and with noisey crowds yelling shit (the way it should be) it would be easy to just shout coaching from the crowd so it might as well stay because sod having more things that can go wrong in a tournament.
    “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so ****ing what."
    -Stephen Fry

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  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,139
    This whole topic has become pointless.
    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • WTF-AKUMA-HAXWTF-AKUMA-HAX C.JACKOBE > David Sirloin Joined: Posts: 17,408
    Did this nigga really just create a graph?

    bqh8rvG.png

    I heard someone laugh out loud once (not even Nelson Muntz, HAHA, just 'HAH') from the other side of the room to the teach asking if we tried to make a graph for our test question when he went over the answers to the test. Making graphs correctly was half the class curriculum!

    who's laughing now!

    well maybe everybody because how does high level play go under, well beyond 0% into the negatives. casual play much closer inset to 100% on the scale with a defined 0% there.
    1999 = "A Game with Parries isn't Street Fighter"
    2016 = "Releasing a Complete Game isn't Street Fighter"
    You wouldn't even understand if I told you.
    People will forget what you said.
    People will forget what you did.
    But, people will never forget how you made them feel.

  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    gaagaa wrote: »
    So you are saying it's okay to have a research team of 10 people (20, 100, or even 1 guy it's all the same) sitting behind you doing all kinds of analysis for you while you play and it will have little to no effect on your performance?
    Sure it will, but you still have to be able to execute, that's well over half the game.
    There you go bro. By saying it will, you are confirming (conforming to) my idea that coaching will have an impact on both players. It's very possible for that impact to be unobvious, small, and so minuscule to various other factors, but still mean the difference between a loss or a win in high level play.
    If you want FG competitions to be "camp vs camp" (not just the traditional "team vs team", but also where one individual steps forward to represent his "camp")? okay then... no problems.
    well maybe everybody because how does high level play go under, well beyond 0% into the negatives. casual play much closer inset to 100% on the scale with a defined 0% there.
    Maybe you're right. Should've added 0%'s to the right and left of bottom scale because my scrambling was not obvious. Guess you should dumb things down to everyone always (i.e. being explicit at all times) huh?! Do you do this in your everyday life communication though?

    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
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    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    gaagaa wrote: »
    gaagaa wrote: »
    So you are saying it's okay to have a research team of 10 people (20, 100, or even 1 guy it's all the same) sitting behind you doing all kinds of analysis for you while you play and it will have little to no effect on your performance?
    Sure it will, but you still have to be able to execute, that's well over half the game.
    There you go bro. By saying it will, you are confirming (conforming to) my idea that coaching will have an impact on both players. It's very possible for that impact to be unobvious, small, and so minuscule to various other factors, but still mean the difference between a loss or a win in high level play.
    If you want FG competitions to be "camp vs camp" (not just the traditional "team vs team", but also where one individual steps forward to represent his "camp")? okay then... no problems.
    I never said it wouldn't have an effect, it's obvious it does, the question is if the effect is a negative or not. I don't think it is and you have failed to convince me otherwise.

    My contention was with calling it cheating when most of the time it's not because it's not against the rules most of the time and then you trying to say you don't care if it's banned or not while insisting on calling it cheating making your position very clear.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can cheat like this and win all that there is for all I care. But It's hard to understand how can one not think of this outside intervention, that would affect a 1vs1 situation, as a cheat.

    Scrub A has J.Wong and F.Champ at his side while scrub B has nobody. Sounds fair.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,957
    edited February 5
    Why assume scrub B has no one? I've seen coaching on both sides. Why are we even assuming these people are scrubs? Plenty of very good players have had coaching.

    It's really hard to have an even handed conversation about this when you keep coming from such a negative direction. Makes me feel trying to converse with you about this is a waste of my time because your mind is already made up. Waste of time at that point.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,542
    From a logistical standpoint, banning coaching is just not feasible. How are you going to prevent some dude in pools from telling another dude that his opponent likes to press buttons on wake-up? The issue at this point is more or less having four or five guys rush the stage at grand finals and delaying the game because they all have to whisper strategies to the player rather than any question of whether it's fair or promotes higher level of play or whatever.

    Previously, I felt like coaching might give an edge to established players with ready access to top level tournament players to coach them, but then I realized that while that's probably true, it doesn't really matter in the end. Smug trains with Valle. EG had some of the top names in America training with each other constantly. The Trinity are only a thing because they pool their resources. Top level guys get advantages others don't because they have sponsors, they know other top level guys and therefore get better training partners, they get to compete against a wider variety of players more often, and they get to have fighting games as their day jobs in some cases. Hell, just where you live can give you a huge advantage. Good luck playing Tekken 7 competitively against someone who's had well over a year's practice on the arcade version before you even touched it.

    The guy who has Justin Wong and F Champ in his corner will probably have a significant advantage over the dude without anyone whether they coach him or not, because he gets to practice with top players and benefit from their insight. Their coaching didn't just start at the tournament. The question I think is far more important than if it gives an unfair advantage to a player who already has an unfair advantage is how to make tournaments proceed in a timely and orderly manner. Because unless you're on the grand stage at EVO, even with coaching banned you're probably going to end up having "coaches" sitting on the front row and yelling out advice to their guy. The coaches will be telling their guy strategies against other players before the match even begins (there's the Floe SC2 EVO story, for example) and scouting out possible rivals. Coaching is going to be a thing and there's not much you can do, the most important thing is to make sure it disrupts tournaments as little as possible.
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Sometimes It Snows In April... Joined: Posts: 3,248
    I see it kind of like a trainer giving a fighter advice between rounds of a boxing match. Sure he can give instructions, but the fighter still has to carry them out and there's no guarantee that the opponent won't be able to download and break through whatever the new strategy is.

    With that said, if it's against the rules it's against the rules. But maybe if players were each allowed to choose a "coach" to be in their corner in the grand finals or something, it might add a little more oomph to the match.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • chopperbyrnechopperbyrne Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Coaching should be encouraged, not stopped.

    Get people playing better, more often.

    Don't see how anyone could be against it.
    celticthrowdown.com
    PSN - Leto_II_of_Dune
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    edited February 5
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Scrub A has J.Wong and F.Champ at his side while scrub B has nobody. Sounds fair.
    Learn what a scrub is.

    The opponent should have planned ahead. Sounds like he's playing at a pretty high level if his opponent has Justin and FChamp on his side. He likely has the connections to get a coach.

    gaagaa wrote: »
    But It's hard to understand how can one not think of this outside intervention, that would affect a 1vs1 situation, as a cheat.

    That's because you're apparently too dense to understand the definition of cheating. You've been told over and over that it's not cheating unless it's against the rules but you still don't get it. Just throw in the towel because you're not capable of coming out on top in this debate if you can't even understand a simple definition.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    edited February 6
    It's really hard to have an even handed conversation about this when you keep coming from such a negative direction. Makes me feel trying to converse with you about this is a waste of my time because your mind is already made up. Waste of time at that point.
    I was about to tell you the same exact thing.
    Why assume scrub B has no one? I've seen coaching on both sides. Why are we even assuming these people are scrubs? Plenty of very good players have had coaching.
    What's the point of your statement? I've also seen plenty of good and bad players go with no coaching.
    I don't assume anything. That scrubA vs scrubB is just one example of a scenario that could happen between two players regardless of their level. What's important for me is that this has happened before and will continue to happen if coaching is not regulated. Until regulations happens, it will remain unfair. Most of the matches that I've watched over the course of 7~8 years where coaching occurred have been like this : coach+player vs player.

    And being a realistic person, I know for sure that FG coaching won't be easy to regulate or have rules limiting it's abuse. It's helpless to stop people from shouting. You think I don't know that?
    So stop telling me that my aim is banning coaching. That's not my aim and has never been.

    I keep saying that I don't care what tournament organizers do to coaching. No one can dictate what they should or shouldn't do. After all, it's their money and image that's on the line. But my words keep getting... what? blown out of proportions.

    On the other hand, the community can regulate itself. Take for example Sumo.
    There's this technique that a Sumo wrestler can pull at the beginning of a fight, where instead of charging towards the opponent with a head butt or a tackle, the wrestler can take one step to the side then slap the back of his opponent making them slip/lose balance, thus having a superior position improving wining chances.
    While this is a valid, old tactic with an actual name and doesn't break any rules, it's hugely regarded as bad sportsmanship and is avoidable by anyone who's looking to build a name for themselves.
    You'd be called out for it if you do it twice in a year or something.

    Remember the GGPO lag that people intentional introduced to gameplay by dragging the window hoping that their opponent will drop their combos. That stuff started to disappear when people became more and more aware of it they could call out others on it.

    This is the way I want coaching to be treated in FGC.
    1- Acknowledge that it's a cheat way to having an edge, especially on someone who might already be in a disadvantage of not having top players to train/coach/interact with (thanks Kecka).
    2- "This time, there's no Mago to help you" call anyone out when they cheat and bring them down to where they should be until they prove otherwise.

    I don't think I'm dense Evolution169, if anything, we're all dense. At least I don't try to bash my way out of arguments. So why don't you stop repeating yourself and tell us something we don't know?
    Your argument that the masses are saying this and that doesn't mean anything to me. I'm not convinced it's not a cheat. I've stated my arguments above.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
    @ggaclassics
    "A moment of weakness, months of pain!"
  • chopperbyrnechopperbyrne Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Your viewpoint is idiotic.

    Being coached before, during, or after a match happens in every sport/esport there is.

    You say it's cheating, and then try to compare being given advice to intentionally introducing lag to a game.

    You are either stupid, or a huge troll.
    celticthrowdown.com
    PSN - Leto_II_of_Dune
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    gaagaa wrote: »
    I'm not convinced it's not a cheat. I've stated my arguments above.
    I don't care whether or not you're convinced. It's a fact that coaching is not cheating when there are no rules banning it. Your opinion on that is irrelevant.
  • FoolinfectionFoolinfection Big fish in a little pond 4 LIFE Joined: Posts: 2,139
    This whole topic has become pointless.

    Welcome to the internet. God help you if you have an opinion.

    I should start keeping written letters in sealed envelopes when I go to tournaments. If i get bodied, I give them one, and when they open it up it says "fuk u"

  • ottomaticottomatic a totally real person who really exists, really Joined: Posts: 244
    The real problem currently is that you are so adamant in labeling coaching as equivalent to cheating. If coaching is unfair due to it boosting the performance of the coached player, are headphones also an unfair advantage? They are also able to boost the players performance by allowing them to drown out superfluous noise. How about energy drinks? I've seen players performance rise after taking a drink. Are those also unfair?

    Lastly, we are a sport without any divisions. There are major and minor tournaments but they are mostly open registration (there are a few invitational but those are very few and far between). With open registrations you can expect some pros, minor leaguers, and some amateurs to show up each with different amounts of preparations. The onus, however has long been on the player to be prepped with such standards as bring your own controller/stick, and I see no reason why the same shouldn't be said of coaches. If a player has one, they should use them as long as the rules will allow. If they don't, perhaps they should have been less anti-social.

    TLDR: BYOC, bring your own coach.
  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,542
    I still think it's kind of superfluous to argue about whether it's fair or not. Because regardless of which conclusion you arrive at, the reality of it is that you can't make coaching disappear. You might be able to reduce it, but in the end people will find a way.

    Just like listening to button presses, hitting empty buttons, looking at an opponent's stick and whatnot are probably not intended ways to be playing fighting games, but it's something that's going to happen unless you put the guys in different rooms, which is just not feasible. So you just have to live with it.

    EVO's ban on coaching was for ESPN, because they didn't want fifteen guys running on stage between every set on the grand stage with cameras rolling. Which admittedly made it look less bush league, particularly after Mr Thuggery challenged Chris G to a money match. That's a practical solution. Limiting it to one guy with a two minute time limit would also work. I think it's more important to make sure the tournament proceeds smoothly and the stream doesn't look like ass.
    SFV: Gief, Bison
    Xrd: Fucking nobody and everybody, but I like Elphelt, Sin, Raven and Ramlethal a little more than others
    Garou: Grant, Butt
    KI: Riptor, Aganos
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 28
    Your viewpoint is idiotic.

    Being coached before, during, or after a match happens in every sport/esport there is.

    You say it's cheating, and then try to compare being given advice to intentionally introducing lag to a game.
    WOW! someone that can't read even if his life depended on it.
    That's not me comparing advise to lag?! That's me expanding on the Sumo example where I shed light on the fact that knowing you're being tricked could on itself stop whoever is tricking you from tricking you.
    Now, are you making a comparison between esports (e.g. street fighter) and physical sports like boxing, gymnastics...etc, where the outcome has already been decided beforehand, even before competition day arrives? between sports where no amount of couching (mainly reminders) on the same day would have a drastic impact (marginal at best) on the performance of the athletes?
    I suggest that you read more books instead of writing them. Nice Bruce Lee picture btw.

    To the parrots that keep spamming the same two phrases over and over. You know who you are... I'll pay you cookies for every valid argument that goes in favor of FG coaching. Let's see, maybe this will stimulate some intelligence.
    I'm not shook by anyone. Not by your insults. Not by your opinions. Some people here don't want to grind. Instead, relying on someone else's efforts is easier for them. Come at me bro.
    d3v wrote: »
    I'm a tournament organizer who's resume includes a CPT event, and when possible, I allow coaching in my tournaments.
    And? Your personal references are not objective reasons to take into consideration. Besides, I've already stated that EVO and other big tourneys ban coaching.
    Kecka wrote: »
    I understand where you're coming from. Time constraints may be one reason to ban or limit coaching. Media standards might be another reason. Either way, just more reasons that coaching is not something we need.

    What about the Sumo thing??? 変化 legitimate technique that's looked down upon. All the above ignored my point about it. Hmmm?
    "It can be construed as not wanting to properly meet your opponent either because of cowardice or wanting a cheap, quick win for various reasons." fits FG coaching very well.
    NOOB, YOU ARE NEXT TO BE PETRIFIED! Show me some LOVE!
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,646 mod
    Honestly, I believe the solution here is simply to regulate it. Make it so that players can only designate one person as a coach per match and no one else can join them up on stage.
    gaagaa wrote: »
    And? Your personal references are not objective reasons to take into consideration. Besides, I've already stated that EVO and other big tourneys ban coaching.
    For every big tournament that bans it, there's one that's okay with it. For example, SEAM 2016 was one of the biggest tournaments in the tour, especially for Asia, and coaching was allowed on Sony's stage. Heck, Infiltration was coaching every single Korean player that entered.
    gaagaa wrote: »
    What about the Sumo thing??? 変化 legitimate technique that's looked down upon. All the above ignored my point about it. Hmmm?
    "It can be construed as not wanting to properly meet your opponent either because of cowardice or wanting a cheap, quick win for various reasons." fits FG coaching very well.
    Except that's never been an FGC thing. Our thing for any legitimate technique has been to use and abuse it. Cheap, quick wins are kind of our thing and we even have a derogatory term for people who complain about stuff being "cheap" - we call them "scrubs.

    Also, this goes beyond coaching, right down to seemingly more questionable things such as taunting, intimidation and trash talk.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

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