RE:Should Coaching Be Banned in the FGC?

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  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,556
    edited February 7
    gaagaa wrote: »
    What about the Sumo thing??? 変化 legitimate technique that's looked down upon. All the above ignored my point about it. Hmmm?
    "It can be construed as not wanting to properly meet your opponent either because of cowardice or wanting a cheap, quick win for various reasons." fits FG coaching very well.

    Sumo is a very special case. It's a highly ritualistic sport that has its roots in samurai culture. And no, that's not me drawing broad strokes about Japanese honor culture. Originally, the entire point of organized sumo wrestling was that the best wrestlers would get to compete in front of the emperor at his court to show their clan's understanding and devotion to the art. Thus it was an incredibly important diplomatic tool, and more akin to other rituals like tea ceremonies than purely competitive sports. Since the sport has its roots in both Shinto rituals (hence the whole purifying the ring aspect and praising the ancestors and kami) and feudal Japanese warrior culture (as the original practicioners were from the samurai caste and part of sumo was showing your devotion to the way of the warrior) it isn't really just a sport. For example, no matter how good you are, you can never become yokozuna without being considered to fulfill certain moral and spiritual conditions, unlike being heavyweight champion in most other combat sports where it's just a matter of skill. Hence the very feudal Japanese notion of "getting advice is demonstrating lack of belief in your skill". Do note that it's not technically illegal, it's just looked down on, much like a lot of stuff people just don't do in sumo, like specific types of throws. Sumo is also corrupt as fuck precisely because it's a really weird ritualized pseudo-sport, but that's beside the point.

    If you want to look down on people who receive coaching, I don't think anyone will stop you. But there's a world of difference between that and outright calling it cheating. Most sports actually allowed coaching more as a consequence of completely unrelated rules that made coaching hard to prevent. In hockey, soccer, football and baseball, you have substitutes which forces the coach to be in contact with his team, making it extremely difficult to prevent him from giving them advice. In combat sports, you needed a corner man to make sure the fighter was in the shape to continue, and he needed to talk with the fighter to do his job. I think the FGC falls into this category of being in a situation where it's incredibly impractical to prevent coaching and even harder to draw the line of what coaching actually constitutes, so it's better to just allow it under controlled forms instead.
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  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    Those "Uh... no"s clicks are more like "Uh... no, I don't know anything to say. Let me pretend I made a point". Hilarious!
    d3v wrote: »
    For every big tournament that bans it, there's one that's okay with it.
    Look at it like this : the growth rate of a function is described with it's most dominant factor; one with the largest exponent. If the most important and prestigious (e.g. EVO) tournaments ban it, then what other tournaments do about it fades in comparison.
    “Evo knows their role and they know whatever rules they make, it will be picked up by other events also” - F.Champ.

    Having Infiltration coaching all those amateurs is straight up shameless if you ask me. I would imagine they couldn't be so rude to ask him to stay quite. I'd be so annoyed at myself to let someone bug me the whole set and then take credit for my achievement just because they wanted to help or some wannabe promoters said so.

    Your "solution" won't take us anywhere. How can you ensure that the coaches do not interact with others via text messaging or some other means? You plan on monitoring the coaches? like they say, people will always find ways around it. And the fact that people still haven't figured what to do about this issue is proof that there's no practical solution of restricting the abuse.
    d3v wrote: »
    Except that's never been an FGC thing. Our thing for any legitimate technique has been to use and abuse it. Cheap, quick wins are kind of our thing and we even have a derogatory term for people who complain about stuff being "cheap" - we call them "scrubs.
    It's cheating and not spamming projectiles. Way way more worse than just cheap.
    Looks like you're calling K.Brad, F.champ, and other FG pros scrubs too.

    “Luffy told me what I coached him with at Evo was most effective against Bonchan.. It made a big difference because I played the character his opponent was using, so I was able to offer him a window into the mind of a Sagat player going up against a Rose player.” - Ryan Hart about Luffy's EVO 2014 win against Bonchan in grand finals. He said that the gap isn't that big between great players, so coaching someone mid-set could certainly influence the outcome. I'm sure Luffy has no objections to this.
    “It’s slightly unfair one person is having to constantly deal with the minds of two opponents,” he said. “It becomes a handicap match, especially during a lengthy set. The longer a set goes on, the more input a coach can have, creating more opportunities to disrupt the flow of concentration and performance of the one player who is alone" According to him it's not really fair.

    “No coaching at Evo means everyone has to think for themselves” - K.Brad said one time on a tweet.

    “I don’t agree on having a coach.. Fighting games are unique. If I lose and someone coached me, I’d go home thinking I should have done what was in my heart. If I win, it takes away from my own accomplishment. I want to be the better player, making my own optimal decisions.” - Filipino Champ.
  • RichterRichter ~~~00~~~ Joined: Posts: 1,873
    Coaching is allowed so it's not cheating no matter which way you look at it. That being said, I think you're merely asking for coaching to be banned in singles tournaments which would be a TO nightmare if scrubs left and right started complaining after every match (especially at majors). From a perspective of practicality, coaching is here to say.

    I don't even think we can accurately define coaching to begin with. A group of 6 people in the crowd yelling, "Hold Down Back!" Automatic disqualification? Your buddy mentioning, "Fuck up this Wakeup DP scrub." Forfeit the match for cheating. The term coaching is so broad we would have to narrow it down in some way that would comply with how our community is run without disrupting the flow of the event.
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  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    I always liked the Blizzard RTS model where both players are in separate soundproof booths by themselves. No coaching, no interfering with the other player, no outside noise like the crowd distracting anyone.

    That would be my dream as a player for fighting games. Probably doesn't sound great to others though lol.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    edited February 10
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Those "Uh... no"s clicks are more like "Uh... no, I don't know anything to say. Let me pretend I made a point". Hilarious!
    d3v wrote: »
    For every big tournament that bans it, there's one that's okay with it.
    Look at it like this : the growth rate of a function is described with it's most dominant factor; one with the largest exponent. If the most important and prestigious (e.g. EVO) tournaments ban it, then what other tournaments do about it fades in comparison.
    “Evo knows their role and they know whatever rules they make, it will be picked up by other events also” - F.Champ.

    Having Infiltration coaching all those amateurs is straight up shameless if you ask me. I would imagine they couldn't be so rude to ask him to stay quite. I'd be so annoyed at myself to let someone bug me the whole set and then take credit for my achievement just because they wanted to help or some wannabe promoters said so.

    Your "solution" won't take us anywhere. How can you ensure that the coaches do not interact with others via text messaging or some other means? You plan on monitoring the coaches? like they say, people will always find ways around it. And the fact that people still haven't figured what to do about this issue is proof that there's no practical solution of restricting the abuse.
    d3v wrote: »
    Except that's never been an FGC thing. Our thing for any legitimate technique has been to use and abuse it. Cheap, quick wins are kind of our thing and we even have a derogatory term for people who complain about stuff being "cheap" - we call them "scrubs.
    It's cheating and not spamming projectiles. Way way more worse than just cheap.
    Looks like you're calling K.Brad, F.champ, and other FG pros scrubs too.

    “Luffy told me what I coached him with at Evo was most effective against Bonchan.. It made a big difference because I played the character his opponent was using, so I was able to offer him a window into the mind of a Sagat player going up against a Rose player.” - Ryan Hart about Luffy's EVO 2014 win against Bonchan in grand finals. He said that the gap isn't that big between great players, so coaching someone mid-set could certainly influence the outcome. I'm sure Luffy has no objections to this.
    “It’s slightly unfair one person is having to constantly deal with the minds of two opponents,” he said. “It becomes a handicap match, especially during a lengthy set. The longer a set goes on, the more input a coach can have, creating more opportunities to disrupt the flow of concentration and performance of the one player who is alone" According to him it's not really fair.

    “No coaching at Evo means everyone has to think for themselves” - K.Brad said one time on a tweet.

    “I don’t agree on having a coach.. Fighting games are unique. If I lose and someone coached me, I’d go home thinking I should have done what was in my heart. If I win, it takes away from my own accomplishment. I want to be the better player, making my own optimal decisions.” - Filipino Champ.

    Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not. K-Brad has been doing it a lot lately with all his whining about Smug.

    FChamp isn't making an argument against coaching being allowed, he's making an argument for why he doesn't want to use a coach.

    Their opinions on the matter are valid since they are affected, but that's just two people, and we don't even know if they still feel that way.

    And if you don't like the post rating system, you can go find a forum without one.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,091
    IglooBob wrote: »
    I always liked the Blizzard RTS model where both players are in separate soundproof booths by themselves. No coaching, no interfering with the other player, no outside noise like the crowd distracting anyone.

    That would be my dream as a player for fighting games. Probably doesn't sound great to others though lol.
    That sounds fucking awful :rofl:
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Those "Uh... no"s clicks are more like "Uh... no, I don't know anything to say. Let me pretend I made a point". Hilarious!
    d3v wrote: »
    For every big tournament that bans it, there's one that's okay with it.
    Look at it like this : the growth rate of a function is described with it's most dominant factor; one with the largest exponent. If the most important and prestigious (e.g. EVO) tournaments ban it, then what other tournaments do about it fades in comparison.
    “Evo knows their role and they know whatever rules they make, it will be picked up by other events also” - F.Champ.

    Having Infiltration coaching all those amateurs is straight up shameless if you ask me. I would imagine they couldn't be so rude to ask him to stay quite. I'd be so annoyed at myself to let someone bug me the whole set and then take credit for my achievement just because they wanted to help or some wannabe promoters said so.

    Your "solution" won't take us anywhere. How can you ensure that the coaches do not interact with others via text messaging or some other means? You plan on monitoring the coaches? like they say, people will always find ways around it. And the fact that people still haven't figured what to do about this issue is proof that there's no practical solution of restricting the abuse.
    d3v wrote: »
    Except that's never been an FGC thing. Our thing for any legitimate technique has been to use and abuse it. Cheap, quick wins are kind of our thing and we even have a derogatory term for people who complain about stuff being "cheap" - we call them "scrubs.
    It's cheating and not spamming projectiles. Way way more worse than just cheap.
    Looks like you're calling K.Brad, F.champ, and other FG pros scrubs too.

    “Luffy told me what I coached him with at Evo was most effective against Bonchan.. It made a big difference because I played the character his opponent was using, so I was able to offer him a window into the mind of a Sagat player going up against a Rose player.” - Ryan Hart about Luffy's EVO 2014 win against Bonchan in grand finals. He said that the gap isn't that big between great players, so coaching someone mid-set could certainly influence the outcome. I'm sure Luffy has no objections to this.
    “It’s slightly unfair one person is having to constantly deal with the minds of two opponents,” he said. “It becomes a handicap match, especially during a lengthy set. The longer a set goes on, the more input a coach can have, creating more opportunities to disrupt the flow of concentration and performance of the one player who is alone" According to him it's not really fair.

    “No coaching at Evo means everyone has to think for themselves” - K.Brad said one time on a tweet.

    “I don’t agree on having a coach.. Fighting games are unique. If I lose and someone coached me, I’d go home thinking I should have done what was in my heart. If I win, it takes away from my own accomplishment. I want to be the better player, making my own optimal decisions.” - Filipino Champ.

    Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not. K-Brad has been doing it a lot lately with all his whining about Smug.

    FChamp isn't making an argument against coaching being allowed, he's making an argument for why he doesn't want to use a coach.

    Their opinions on the matter are valid since they are affected, but that's just two people, and we don't even know if they still feel that way.

    And if you don't like the post rating system, you can go find a forum without one.
    "Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not" this might apply to you but surely not everyone.
    According to your logic, anything that Daigo says should not be taken seriously since he hasn't been doing very well lately in SFV. Daigo is a scrub. Daigo is a fraud. Daigo should go find a real job... Haaa bro get out of here. What about Ryan Hart? Let me guess... He's a scrub too!!

    Since I mentioned Daigo, I have just realized that I’ve never seen him being coached by anyone. So it makes sense to assume he does not want coaching to be around and available for his opponents.

    Since day 1, SFV has been arguably a messy game. Dismissing someone based on their performance in said game when they clearly have a long history of success is foolish.
    K.Brad and F.Champ are well known, well established, seasoned players. You can't take away from what they say no matter what, because unlike you, they have weight in the FGC.
    They're not just two people. First of all, read well. I quoted three and mentioned Luffy who's a close friend of Ryan. Second, of course there are many others, I just quoted some of them. There's no way I can search tweets of everyone. Stop being lame and quote some known players yourself (other than the Trinity).

    And FYI, I'm not going anywhere. I don't have any problems with the rating system. Just wanted to put people in their place.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    gaagaa wrote: »
    "Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not" this might apply to you but surely not everyone.
    According to your logic, anything that Daigo says should not be taken seriously since he hasn't been doing very well lately in SFV. Daigo is a scrub. Daigo is a fraud. Daigo should go find a real job... Haaa bro get out of here. What about Ryan Hart? Let me guess... He's a scrub too!!
    So you're saying no pro can say something scrubby when they get salty? Get real. I already said K-Brad has been doing that lately with regard to Smug.
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Since I mentioned Daigo, I have just realized that I’ve never seen him being coached by anyone. So it makes sense to assume he does not want coaching to be around and available for his opponents.
    That would be a very self-serving assumption to make, wouldn't it? How about we assume that Daigo is okay with coaching because he coached Bonchan in EVO 2014 and has said he'd like to be a coach like Valle?

    You seem to be getting super titled over this. Maybe consider taking a break and coming back when you have a real argument, instead of "these 3 pros right here agree with me." And "putting people in their place" makes you looks pretty salty, just FYI.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,064 mod
    gaagaa wrote: »
    "Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not" this might apply to you but surely not everyone.
    According to your logic, anything that Daigo says should not be taken seriously since he hasn't been doing very well lately in SFV. Daigo is a scrub. Daigo is a fraud. Daigo should go find a real job... Haaa bro get out of here. What about Ryan Hart? Let me guess... He's a scrub too!!

    Since I mentioned Daigo, I have just realized that I’ve never seen him being coached by anyone. So it makes sense to assume he does not want coaching to be around and available for his opponents.
    He's calling KBrad comments "scrubby" not because KBrad isn't doing well, but rather because they come of as complaints about Smug's character being cheap - which is the academic definition of scrubby.

    Making the arbitrary call that something is "cheap" or "unfair" is the textbook definition of scrubby.
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  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    K.Brad & Smug trash talking each other has absolutely nothing to do with coaching. As far as I understand it, K.Brad let Smug stay in his hotel room once, then Smug bit him back on stream. That's their personal drama to settle. Even if K.Brad got emotional, it happened way after his tweets on coaching.

    K.Brad is just one of a bunch of people who agree with me. Who agrees with you? wwwww
    That would be a very self-serving assumption to make, wouldn't it? How about we assume that Daigo is okay with coaching because he coached Bonchan in EVO 2014 and has said he'd like to be a coach like Valle?
    Until we see him step back from competing and moving more into the role of mentor and coach others consistently not just off competition but also between mid-sets and tournament matches, It's more safe to assume that he does not want any rule to hinder his chances in SFV. And Daigo coaching Bonchan at EVO2014 was nothing more than national pride.

    I don't understand how can I be salty when I wasn't the one initiating any insults over something that doesn't really affect me? I'm not salty. If anything, you're looking more saltier than before. After all, I'm not the one bringing up these derogatory terms.


  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    "except" is the key word.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,091
    edited February 10
    No its really not. You just want it to be because otherwise it undermines your attempt at an appeal to a higher authority. If Daigo was as against coaching as you claim he never would have done it to begin with.
    Post edited by crotchpuncha on
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  • mutantmagnetmutantmagnet Joined: Posts: 83
    I always like this topic in gaming. Live coaching should always be banned. It changes the dynamic a lot when a person is free to only observe a game and give advice instead of also being concerned with executing actions. A coach in an RTS or Magic style card game is devastating if they can coach in real time. In a fighting game it could get almost as bad because if it wasn't banned coaches would have mic and headphone set ups with their players so they can whisper advice unless the other person is dumb enough to play without headphones or a coach themselves.

    Coaches between matches is acceptable.
  • spudmastaflashspudmastaflash www.punchplanet.com Joined: Posts: 324
    This guy still hasn't answered what exactly he considers "coaching". Sure someone sitting next to the player giving advice is coaching, but what about someone standing behind just saying random advice? Would we need to install a "no talking while matches are being played"? How do you even prove that the person followed said advice? "That dude said to block my wakeup DPs, and then he did it, he should be DQed and I should get the win now!" The more you think about this "problem", the more you should think about how impractical it would be to enforce, to the point where it's not worth the effort at all.

    Someone mentioned using sound proof booths like they do at Dota/LoL esports events, but this simply would not work for the FGC. There are two types of events for fighting games:
    * Open tournaments with thousands of players, where it is simply impractical to have a sound proof booth for every single match. I'd also argue that this goes against a lot of things that make FGC tournaments so awesome (crowd pressure)/
    * Private long-set matches like these ESL events. Booths wouldn't help here because these events are not going to draw big crowds (no one is going to travel to go see a FT10, so the crowd is not an issue), and as far as I can see there isn't any coaching either.

    Just seems like a non-issue that you're trying to make a big deal out of, that you wouldn't have any chance of enforcing at a real tournament (where thousands of matches are happening and people are literally standing at the player's shoulders)
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    I think for the sake of argument, the assumption should the be that coaching is telling one player something that the other player can't hear.
  • ShinjiGohanShinjiGohan Joined: Posts: 5,091 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I don't think it should be allowed. If you didn't do your homework on the match up, or your opponent and are losing, you deserve to lose. Having someone as a "lifeline" defeats the purpose of a tournament.

    Then it boils down to who has better coach when two equal players are against each other. What if the other player doesn't have a coach? How would that be fair in a tournament that is supposed to be 1 on 1? Maybe team battles like 3 on 3 I can see if it is your teammates coaching you as they have a vested interest in winning as well.

    Shit like this is part of the reason why I left the tournament scene (me sucking and disliking all the tournament games are a huge part too though haha).
  • Ryujin_OsaiRyujin_Osai leggo Joined: Posts: 303
    Eh boxers and cage fighters get pep talks in between rounds.At the end of the day regardless of the advice he/she is given they still have to go out there and execute which is what its all about
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  • ShinjiGohanShinjiGohan Joined: Posts: 5,091 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    boxers and cage fighters also work specifically with a coach throughout their career. They can't get a match without a coach. Should we now disallow anyone from entering a tournament without a coach?
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    Should we now disallow anyone from entering a tournament without a coach?
    well....
    Shit like this is part of the reason why I left the tournament scene (me sucking and disliking all the tournament games are a huge part too though haha).

    I don't see why you should have a say in it at all if you're not part of the tournament scene. You're over here talking about what "we" should and should not allow, as though you should have any say in the matter.
  • ShinjiGohanShinjiGohan Joined: Posts: 5,091 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    By that mentality, why should we listen to someone that has only been involved for 4 years?
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    edited February 27
    By that mentality, why should we listen to someone that has only been involved for 4 years?
    You shouldn't. This is why I've said it should be left up to the players who have money on the line. Not me, someone who doesn't compete at a high level. Not you, someone who isn't even part of the tournament scene. And not the OP, someone who can't even grasp something as simple as the definition of cheating.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    Well then I've already quoted numerous pro players who have opinions against coaching.
    If you happen to know of any pros (other than the biased Trinity) that are in favor of coaching, be my guest.

    Meanwhile, we are not concerned about how low you think of your own opinions. If you see it's worthless, that's your problem and not ours.
    Anything bringing wisdom or truth to the table will be held in high regard. Be it from a kid, an ill person, an old hag, a tree, or whatever. You can't belittle our opinions just because their different from yours.

    Imma ask it again on his behalf
    Should we now disallow anyone from entering a tournament without a coach?

  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Meanwhile, we are not concerned about how low you think of your own opinions. If you see it's worthless, that's your problem and not ours.
    Except I see yours as worthless too. Even more worthless than mine, considering what I know about you from this thread.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    ༼ つ ͠° ͟ ͟ʖ ͡° ༽つ I've already told you nobody cares how low you think of yourself or others. The question still stands.
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,397
    The question stands if by the grace of god @gaagaa goes to Evo and manages to be anything other than a pot monster will anyone go up on the stage to coach him?
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    It's easy to bash someone when there's nothing to say. It was never about me to begin with.



    The question still stands.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,091
    It's been answered for you multiple times, you not liking the answer is your problem and no one else's.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • gaagaagaagaa Joined: Posts: 50
    Umm sorry but are you referring to @ShinjiGohan's question?

    I don't think there was an answer to anything. Otherwise nobody would consider this an issue.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,042
    gaagaa wrote: »
    Umm sorry but are you referring to @ShinjiGohan's question?

    I don't think there was an answer to anything. Otherwise nobody would consider this an issue.

    He was asking @Ryujn_Osai that question in response to what he said about boxing and MMA. Go ask Ryujn_Osai why he didn't asnwer.
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