[How]Jumps and Anti Airs.

noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
Ok first of all, today was my sixth day using an arcade stick and I tried to play a few casual matches online.

So one thing I noticed was the Jump speed. Unless you have been playing fighting games for over 1 or 2 years, the jumps feel to fast for what they can do.

Lets say I am using Urien or Balrog. The opponent gets a Hard knock down. I block Low and he neutral jumps and catches me. For an Over Head move that can lead to 500+ damage isn't neutral jump way too fast. I have seen people like ChrisG use this and actually catch people.
Are jumps too fast or am I too slow ?
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Comments

  • FishyashFishyash Joined: Posts: 29
    It is a lot easier to react to a jump that is anticipated. To use an RL scenario, if someone throws a ball at you without you expecting it, it's very unlikely you will catch it even when thrown softly. However if you are anticipating it and have your hands ready to catch it, you can catch it easily even if they throw it as hard as they can.

    I haven't played SFV in a while, but I'm pretty sure neutral jumps are slower or are the same speed as overheads, they're catching you because you're not expecting them.
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    edited January 30
    Nope, I am expecting them and well online Lag+ execution barrier (7th or 8th day since I started using an arcade stick). I tested it in Training. Flask kick to CA works absolutely fine , its just that I cant do it in a real match :)

    Worst part is I have won nearly 70% of my casual matches ... seems my auto pilot is better than most auto pilots.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    Once you gain more experience reacting to a jumping normal will become totally natural, it's really slow compared to other things you have to react to. That's when people will start doing stuff like empty jump lows to take advantage of your good reactions.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    Once you gain more experience reacting to a jumping normal will become totally natural, it's really slow compared to other things you have to react to. That's when people will start doing stuff like empty jump lows to take advantage of your good reactions.

    I doubt it. Not just cause of the super lag but because I don't think SFV does what it intended to do. It was marketed as a game that would be about basics and players will rely heavily on fundamentals.

    Unfortunately, I see stuff in this game that is akin to pushing offlane hard in first 5 mins, without WARDS. And people do that and they still manage to win. In a MOBA you just cant do that. No matter what ones skill level, they will get destroyed if they tried to do something like that. It will be a ADC+Tank + Jungler vs offlaner.

    The basics/fundamentals are easy to learn and any violation of the said fundamentals will result in ones team losing a match without fail.

    If capcom wanted people like me to learn something that is at the heart of fighting games i.e. footsies, and understand the beauty of fighting games they should have at least tried. At least make the air game as punishable as not warding or leaving a lane unprotected. This way everyone will stick to the ground and people will learn how to play footsies. This sadly isn't happening at the level at which I play.

    PS

    I was/am a gold(agora)/Plat(Fury) in paragon and i did nothing but follow basics. In SFV I dont think i can reach super bronze LOL.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    edited January 30
    No, really... blocking while standing instead of crouching when someone jumps is really easy. As easy as moving the stick from down-back to just back. Literally everyone from Silver on can do that.
    If you're having such issues either you don't know how to use an arcade stick properly (in which case you might want to switch to pad) or you might have true motor disabilities, sorry.

    Also yes, fighting games are much more demanding in execution than MOBAs. If you have issues with 40 frames jumps how will you react to the 18 frames overheads in GG?
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    And when I block , am I actually "punishing" the opponent for doing something so risky. He is showing aggression and I am supposed to block ? As I said no one pushes offlane. No matter how good you are, you are not pushing that lane.

    Ok now lets say if they were to reduce jump speed for most characters by 20 to 30% and make all Medium normal Anti-airs do crush counters. What will happen ?

    No one is going to jump unless there is 1 or 2 really special situations. (Like a lane being completely empty, then you can push , yeah). The game will be grounded and people start learning. This is why I feel SFV should be last SF.

    Capcom needs to make a NEW fighting game that is just pure fundamentals that is it. You play by the book.If the FGC is to grow it needs to convince people that there is actually strategy that can be accessed easily.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    There's an issue with anti-airing in this game due to the big input lag but holy shit you're making it way bigger than it is. Using your AA button or special of choice still isn't hard at all if you train for it. The truth is you probably aren't even looking for those AAs and therefore you get owned by them.

    Also in the situation you described in the first post you won't be able to do anything but block. You know why? Because after a hard knockdown they have all the time they want to set up a meaty jumping normal that you can only beat with DPs, and sometimes not even with them because you can set up safe jumps. Hard knockdowns are very rare in this game anyway and if you get hit by one it's only your fault for mashing against their sweeps.

    The fact now you start talking about normal AAs honestly just means you're making excuses. Hit training mode and in no time you'll learn to block or AA properly.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,584
    League of Legends is a game for babies, welcome to the real world.
    Add me for some Tekken 7 if you're from Europe.
    I'm not playing anything else these days:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/NaughtySenpai/
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,081
    noorsfv wrote: »
    I block Low and he neutral jumps and catches me.
    You're definitely too slow in that scenario. That is all you. Don't believe me? Try neutral jumping on wakeup more often and you'll see people anti-air you.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    It isn't about Just anti-airing. Didn't I say I realized how guile can easily stop people from doing that.

    What I am trying to describe is a general problem with SFV. This is not the game it should have been which is evident from the fact that it failed to attract new gamers. The direction of the game is wrong. The speed , the amount of damage, stun guage ... what were they thinking.

    I am not going pro so I don't want invest that kind of time.Even teenagers know that at the end of the day it would be a complete waste of time. In the real world no one cares if you are a Diamond level player or whatever. Go start preparing for your SATs or LMAT. If you already have a job try something like FRM. Most of these professional exams require the same kind of dedication that fighting games "require".

    Why would anyone spend so much time "training" in a video game when they can do something meaningful for themselves and their family ? Fighting games have to change drastically. The only person I know who is going in the right direction is David Sirlin.

    That is why I said slow down Jumps. Here are some other suggestions remove stun guage , reduce damage , remove AA jabs, reduce walk and dash speed.
    How about someone makes a fighting games and does these things, instead of changing Street Fighter to appease the casuals who want instant gratification? SF is doing fine.
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    How about someone makes a fighting games and does these things, instead of changing Street Fighter to appease the casuals who want instant gratification? SF is doing fine.

    Completely agree. And that is why I hope street fighter V is the last street fighter I see for at least another 15 years. Capcom needs to develop a new fighting game. A game that can actually attract and retain beginners. A game where you don't have to spend loads of time in the training room. Video games are a form of entertainment. Want to work hard? Do that in school/college or your work-place.


  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,081
    noorsfv wrote: »
    Video games are a form of entertainment. Want to work hard? Do that in school/college or your work-place.
    Some video games are both entertainment and hard work. There is no rule that says they can't be both. If you're after instant gratification video games, there are plenty out there. It's easier to just play one of them then try to change an established series or a whole genre to fit your needs.
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    I am not asking to change the genre I am just saying Capcom needs to stop making "Street Fighters". Make a simple basic game with strong fundamentals. SFV is like a MOBA in which everyone is an ADC.

    You expect the same kind of effort a person needs to get an amazing job or scholarship. Seriously if LTG had spent this much time studying he would have done way way better for himself.
    IIRC there was a16 year old league player who said don't get into it if you are not going pro. It would be a waste of time. The only difference is in MOBAs you learn the fundamentals really quickly and you can enjoy the game at that level without training 2 or 3 hours daily. That is why MOBAs are popular.

  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    noorsfv wrote: »
    I am not going pro so I don't want invest that kind of time.Even teenagers know that at the end of the day it would be a complete waste of time. In the real world no one cares if you are a Diamond level player or whatever. Go start preparing for your SATs or LMAT. If you already have a job try something like FRM. Most of these professional exams require the same kind of dedication that fighting games "require".

    Why would anyone spend so much time "training" in a video game when they can do something meaningful for themselves and their family ? Fighting games have to change drastically. The only person I know who is going in the right direction is David Sirlin.

    That is why I said slow down Jumps. Here are some other suggestions remove stun guage , reduce damage , remove AA jabs, reduce walk and dash speed.

    This game is legit the easiest and one of the slowest paced fighting games in the market nowadays. Dumbing it down even more would make it brainless. What the hell would happen if you got your hand on GG or VF?
    Also stop comparing SFV to MOBAs, they are game for casual babies that anyone can play. People enjoy fighting games precisely for their complexity and the depth of the strategies one can develop with a better execution. They require work but the reward is fantastic once you get into it. And there are no teammates to blame if you screw up, it's only you and your own skills.
    If you can't put a few hours into training mode per week then don't waste your time with fighting games in general.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45

    This game is legit the easiest and one of the slowest paced fighting games in the market nowadays. Dumbing it down even more would make it brainless. What the hell would happen if you got your hand on GG or VF?
    Also stop comparing SFV to MOBAs, they are game for casual babies that anyone can play. People enjoy fighting games precisely for their complexity and the depth of the strategies one can develop with a better execution. They require work but the reward is fantastic once you get into it. And there are no teammates to blame if you screw up, it's only you and your own skills....

    1) GG ? Please tell exactly me how many people play that game ? playerbase ? Not just GG but all arcsys games combined.

    2) No, I am not saying "Dumb Down SFV" .... I am saying CAPCOM should stop making Street Fighters. It is time they make a new fighting game that can actually compete with other e-sport games.

    3)
    "MOBAs, they are game for casual babies that anyone can play"

    Lol OK!!!
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,081
    noorsfv wrote: »
    You expect the same kind of effort a person needs to get an amazing job or scholarship. Seriously if LTG had spent this much time studying he would have done way way better for himself.
    People don't play fighting games for the same reasons they go to school. Yes, both fighters and school are hard work. The difference is one is done for entertainment, and the other is not. I have lots of hobbies that I have devoted thousands of hours to for no purpose beyond personal gratification. I didn't need to learn to play various musical instruments, but I did it anyway. I didn't need to learn how to make instruments and furniture, but I did that too. Hell I payed money and went to school to learn that hobby.

    Maybe your hangup is that you don't feel the end result is worth the effort, but I do. And lots of other people do as well. Fighters might be a niche market, but they are far from dead. Right now we are getting loads of new fighters, so it seems ridiculous to insist that they change something that works.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    IIRC there was a16 year old league player who said don't get into it if you are not going pro. It would be a waste of time. The only difference is in MOBAs you learn the fundamentals really quickly and you can enjoy the game at that level without training 2 or 3 hours daily. That is why MOBAs are popular.
    Like I said before, SFV is doing fine. If someone wants to make an easier fighter, they are welcome to do that, but saying Capcom should abandon SF and chase the casual market doesn't do anything for the people who want new SF games. I personally don't think you can make an easier fighter by dumbing it down. New players would have the same problems. I'd rather see them come up with a better way to teach new players how fighters work.

    And it might interest you to know that Riot games acquired the Rising Thunder dev team and is rumored to be making a fighting game. I don't know if that rumor has been verified or debunked at this point, but you might keep an eye out for that.

  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,996 mod
    Neutral jump on wake up is a legit too to deal with someone who you notice prefers to block low.

    Also, a lot of things in Street Fighter, or any fighting game for that matter are about prediction, not reaction. The genre is heavy on identifying your opponents patterns and habits and making reads based on that. If you're eating a lot of neutral jump normals, then it's likely because your opponents have identified that you like to crouch block on wake up. If you're getting crush countered a lot (which I can infer based on the fact that you seem to get caught in hard knockdown situations based on your post), it's likely because your opponents know that you like to press buttons.

    Reading your opponents is the most fundamental required in any fighting game.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    noorsfv wrote: »
    1) GG ? Please tell exactly me how many people play that game ? playerbase ? Not just GG but all arcsys games combined.

    So what? People who play them are happy because of the reason I explained above. Making them too easy would take out much of the enjoyment you have in playing them.
    Whether you like it or not, there's a considerable demand in the world for "hard" games - Dark Souls series being the greatest example of that. FGs have a steeper learning curve than your average shooter or MOBA and this won't change soon.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    2) No, I am not saying "Dumb Down SFV" .... I am saying CAPCOM should stop making Street Fighters. It is time they make a new fighting game that can actually compete with other e-sport games.

    There's no way ANY fighting game will reach the audience of a CS:GO or LoL, simply because they're not team games and they are meant to have a basic degree of complexity the other games don't have. A FG like the one you describe wouldn't be fun to play nor to watch because it would require zero skill.

    Again, it's very clear you don't have the mindset required to play or enjoy fighting games, so I suggest you to just keep playing LoL with the other babies and leave FGs to those who enjoy the kind of intricacy they offer.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • FishyashFishyash Joined: Posts: 29
    Lol I come back to this post about a day later and it turns out you didn't want advice on how to improve (which is why you used some lame excuse to discount my valid advice) but you just wanted to vent about your issues with street fighter.

    Okay, whatever floats your boat, not everyone likes street fighter. But it's a pretty shitty thing to reach out to people willing to help you, only to argue back at their advice with poor excuses and rants about how you don't like the game.
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 825
    edited February 1
    Holy shit what the hell is this cancer I'm reading. SF5 is the easiest and simplest SF ever made, going so far as to be to its own detriment in the eyes of many. If you can't even press a button given a prompt and half a second to react, than you just have no business playing fighting games, or any really fast-paced action game for that matter.
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    edited February 1
    People don't play fighting games for the same reasons they go to school. Yes, both fighters and school are hard work. The difference is one is done for entertainment, and the other is not. I have lots of hobbies that I have devoted thousands of hours to for no purpose beyond personal gratification. I didn't need to learn to play various musical instruments, but I did it anyway. I didn't need to learn how to make instruments and furniture, but I did that too. Hell I payed money and went to school to learn that hobby.

    Hobbies and competitive games/sports are two different things. Playing a guitar or learning how to make furniture is like going to the gym. You aren't competing with anyone (Unless one is competing in a Mr.Universe competition) . Playing competitive sports is totally different.

    Take the example of Squash, it is a simple sport. After a month a person will learn the basics/fundamentals , now you can play the sport at a level where you can have proper rallies and mind games. It won't take more than 30-40 days to learn that. That isn't possible in a fighting game. The real game is hidden behind loads of execution barriers and the worst part is it is a video game. You don't even stay fit if you play for long hours.

    As for working hard school/college/job, that is your life.
    Like I said before, SFV is doing fine. If someone wants to make an easier fighter, they are welcome to do that, but saying Capcom should abandon SF and chase the casual market doesn't do anything for the people who want new SF games

    SF players have SFV and they can play this game for the next 15 years. But capcom has to seriously stop trying to attract new customers while trying retain old SF loyalists, that isn't going to happen.
    SF fans will play Street fighter no matter what, they aren't going anywhere. So then why bother making a new SF game ? Make a new game that is going to attract "casual babies".



  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45

    There's no way ANY fighting game will reach the audience of a CS:GO or LoL, simply because they're not team games and they are meant to have a basic degree of complexity the other games don't have. A FG like the one you describe wouldn't be fun to play nor to watch because it would require zero skill.

    Again, it's very clear you don't have the mindset required to play or enjoy fighting games, so I suggest you to just keep playing LoL with the other babies and leave FGs to those who enjoy the kind of intricacy they offer.

    See here is the problem.

    1 ) You say it will be too simple and basic and therefore no one will watch it
    2) You say MOBAs are too simple and babies play that game.

    But

    3) More people play and watch MOBAs, just because the entry level gameplay is quite simple. SFV might not be competing with LOL/Paragon/DOTA etc but Capcom is competing with Riot/Epic etc for potential customers and Capcom is losing.

  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    edited February 1
    AirLancer wrote: »
    Holy shit what the hell is this....

    THIS IS SPARTA.

    On a serious note. Capcom is a corporation, its sole motive is to maximize profit. If it can earn 10 times what it is earning now at the cost of all the Street fighter fans it will do it without giving it a second thought. That is why I keep saying leave SF as it is. Eventually, financial needs will eclipse everything else at that moment capcom will have to completely change SFV. So why not make a new game. SF for the old fans and a New simpler game for profit maximization ?



  • oh_BABEoh_BABE Joined: Posts: 6
    i agree. jumps are not reactable in this game, not even god himself has the skills to block such a lightning fast approach.

    here is my idea to fix the issue: capcom should remove jumps altogether, along with dashes. instead lets have three lanes to approach you opponent. on your way to the other side of the screen you face some really tough mobs who attack you with just one option that has 240 frames startup und deals 5 damage. if you can overcome this challenge you can fight against your opponent with some easy to execute (but really amazing) footsies, i will describe later (maybe).

    god that would be fun.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    noorsfv wrote: »

    There's no way ANY fighting game will reach the audience of a CS:GO or LoL, simply because they're not team games and they are meant to have a basic degree of complexity the other games don't have. A FG like the one you describe wouldn't be fun to play nor to watch because it would require zero skill.

    Again, it's very clear you don't have the mindset required to play or enjoy fighting games, so I suggest you to just keep playing LoL with the other babies and leave FGs to those who enjoy the kind of intricacy they offer.

    See here is the problem.

    1 ) You say it will be too simple and basic and therefore no one will watch it
    2) You say MOBAs are too simple and babies play that game.

    But

    3) More people play and watch MOBAs, just because the entry level gameplay is quite simple. SFV might not be competing with LOL/Paragon/DOTA etc but Capcom is competing with Riot/Epic etc for potential customers and Capcom is losing.

    You know what "please your audience" means? Fighting games are enjoyed for what they are. If they weren't what they are they would either have no audience or cease to be fighting games.

    Capcom isn't competing with Riot at all. Learn what a niche market is. Fighting games will always have their fans no matter how Minecraft or LoL are popular because they offer something that other genres don't offer.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    On a serious note. Capcom is a corporation, its sole motive is to maximize profit. If it can earn 10 times what it is earning now at the cost of all the Street fighter fans it will do it without giving it a second thought. That is why I keep saying leave SF as it is. Eventually, financial needs will eclipse everything else at that moment capcom will have to completely change SFV. So why not make a new game. SF for the old fans and a New simpler game for profit maximization ?

    LMAO, stop disguising yourself as a businessman when you're really just asking for a simpler game because you can't hold back instead of down back when an opponent neutral jumps on your wake-up.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    Capcom isn't competing with Riot at all. Learn what a niche market is. Fighting games will always have their fans no matter how Minecraft or LoL are popular because they offer something that other genres don't offer.

    Capcom is without doubt trying to compete with Riot for potential customers. That is why Capcom is pushing SFV so hard as an E-Sport. That is why Riot decided to Radiant entertainment. They both know they are competing and don't want to lose potential viewers/customers/revenue sources.
    LMAO, stop disguising yourself as a businessman when you're really just asking for a simpler game because you can't hold back instead of down back when an opponent neutral jumps on your wake-up.

    LOL I am just stating a fact. Capcom is a corporation , it wants to maximize profit. A simpler game would only benefit Capcom and the FGC in general. The so called hardcore/loyal players can't keep these games afloat.

    How many color/costumes/stages etc are they going to buy ? SFV's whole economy is based on the idea that new players will spend real money instead of farming FM (the way its done in MOBAs ... founders pack and stuff) That isn't happening. Eventually releasing new content will become way more expensive and Capcom will stop supporting SFV. New content development means constant flow of revenue. That revenue is no where to be found.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-10-28-street-fighter-5-sales-grind-to-a-halt-as-community-calls-for-revamp

    This means fewer than 100,000 copies were shipped from May to 30th September.

  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 888
    edited February 1
    noorsfv wrote: »
    LOL I am just stating a fact. Capcom is a corporation , it wants to maximize profit. A simpler game would only benefit Capcom and the FGC in general. The so called hardcore/loyal players can't keep these games afloat.

    No, you have no idea what you're talking about. Nobody would buy a simpler game. If it ever did sell, it would be stale and boring within a week. What you want is something as easy as Divekick. The concept was okay, but that game was interesting for about 60 seconds.

    Furthermore, you say the Capcom's goal is to maximize profits, but you don't want them to make another SF for 15 years. Sure....makes sense.
    Fishyash wrote: »
    Lol I come back to this post about a day later and it turns out you didn't want advice on how to improve (which is why you used some lame excuse to discount my valid advice) but you just wanted to vent about your issues with street fighter.

    Okay, whatever floats your boat, not everyone likes street fighter. But it's a pretty shitty thing to reach out to people willing to help you, only to argue back at their advice with poor excuses and rants about how you don't like the game.

    This. Close thread.
    Injustice 2 - Wonder Woman, Joker
    Boring, stale, predictable FGs - Cammy, Kuma, whatever yawn zzzzz
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,584
    noorsfv wrote: »
    How about someone makes a fighting games and does these things, instead of changing Street Fighter to appease the casuals who want instant gratification? SF is doing fine.

    Completely agree. And that is why I hope street fighter V is the last street fighter I see for at least another 15 years. Capcom needs to develop a new fighting game. A game that can actually attract and retain beginners. A game where you don't have to spend loads of time in the training room. Video games are a form of entertainment. Want to work hard? Do that in school/college or your work-place.


    Do you go to the court to play a game of pickup basketball, and ask the guys to hang the rim half a meter lower because you play for the first time?
    Do you realize what kind of a bitch you've become playing League and thus expecting games to change for you instead of you having to change to learn the game?

    If you don't like it, piss the fuck off.
    If you like the game, this community is actually pretty good at reaching out to players looking for help and is very welcoming offline as well.
    Add me for some Tekken 7 if you're from Europe.
    I'm not playing anything else these days:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/NaughtySenpai/
  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 888
    Do you realize what kind of a bitch you've become playing League and thus expecting games to change for you instead of you having to change to learn the game?

    I can't do it and I don't want to try or learn > I don't like it.
    If the game doesn't hold my hand and spoon feed me peas and carrots > I don't like it.

    We live in a sad era of instant gratification. Why use effort or test yourself when there are plenty of games that reward you just for logging on?

    Injustice 2 - Wonder Woman, Joker
    Boring, stale, predictable FGs - Cammy, Kuma, whatever yawn zzzzz
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Furthermore, you say the Capcom's goal is to maximize profits, but you don't want them to make another SF for 15 years. Sure....makes sense.

    I said no More SF and the reason is given below. Do SF fans really need another SF ? Capcom has to do something new.

    Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, DOS)
    Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (PlayStation - part of Street Fighter Collection Vol. 2(US), Capcom Generation Vol. 5: Fighters(Japan))
    Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition
    Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (TurboGrafx-16 - Japanese release)
    Street Fighter II' - Champion Edition (PlayStation 2 - part of Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 1)
    Street Fighter II' (Sega Master System - Brazil-only release)
    Street Fighter II′ Turbo: Hyper Fighting, Street Fighter II' Turbo, Street Fighter II': Hyper Fighting
    Street Fighter II' - Special Champion Edition, Street Fighter II' Plus (Mega Drive, Genesis)
    Street Fighter II' Turbo, Street Fighter II' - Hyper Fighting (PlayStation 2 - part of Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 1)Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers
    Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Super Street Fighter II X: Grand Master Challenge
    Super Street Fighter II Turbo Revival, Super Street Fighter II X: Revival (Game Boy Advance)
    Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix (Xbox 360 - downloadable through Xbox Live Arcade, PlayStation 3 - downloadable through PlayStation Network.)
    Hyper Street Fighter II: The Anniversary Edition
    Street Fighter Alpha: Warriors' Dreams, Street Fighter Zero
    Street Fighter Alpha 2, Street Fighter Zero 2
    Street Fighter Alpha 3, Street Fighter Zero
    Street Fighter III: New Generation
    Street Fighter III: 2nd Impact - Giant Attack
    Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike - Fight for the Future
    Street Fighter IV (Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 and PC)
    Super Street Fighter IV (Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3)
    Ultra Street Fighter IV (Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, PC, PlayStation 4)
    Street Fighter V


  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    noorsfv wrote: »
    Capcom isn't competing with Riot at all. Learn what a niche market is. Fighting games will always have their fans no matter how Minecraft or LoL are popular because they offer something that other genres don't offer.

    Capcom is without doubt trying to compete with Riot for potential customers. That is why Capcom is pushing SFV so hard as an E-Sport. That is why Riot decided to Radiant entertainment. They both know they are competing and don't want to lose potential viewers/customers/revenue sources.

    Lolwut? Fighting games have been esports before esports even existed. They don't need to push it hard because the community is already behind it and keeps growing year after year. Just look at how massive EVO has become in spite of the fact SFV didn't sell as well as the previous series.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    LOL I am just stating a fact. Capcom is a corporation , it wants to maximize profit. A simpler game would only benefit Capcom and the FGC in general. The so called hardcore/loyal players can't keep these games afloat.

    How many color/costumes/stages etc are they going to buy ? SFV's whole economy is based on the idea that new players will spend real money instead of farming FM (the way its done in MOBAs ... founders pack and stuff) That isn't happening. Eventually releasing new content will become way more expensive and Capcom will stop supporting SFV. New content development means constant flow of revenue. That revenue is no where to be found.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-10-28-street-fighter-5-sales-grind-to-a-halt-as-community-calls-for-revamp

    This means fewer than 100,000 copies were shipped from May to 30th September.

    Despite what you're saying, the sales for DLC are pretty okay for Capcom and they already confirmed that the game will be supported until 2020. If anything, making it even simpler will make the competitive scene even more stale, which means that there will be less hype for the game in general. Would you still be interested in competitive chess if all pieces were the same and you could win the game in one move?
    Casuals don't need a "simpler game" to buy SF. All they want are single player modes because they will never try to compete against people online to begin with. The other players want more depth and complexity of gameplay, which is rather the opposite of what you're asking for.

    You know, I played Rocket League for a while and got decent at it. But at some point I started facing people who were amazing at controlling the RC cars in the air, which is pretty technical to do consistently. Did I say "remove aerials from Rocket League because casuals can't do it"? No, I went into training mode and did my best to try to control the air movement. And when I saw that I couldn't do it as much as I would I thought "this game is not for me". This is what adults do, they try to adapt, improve and get better and are able to recognize when to give up.
    You on the other hand want the game to adapt to your lack of skills before even developing them, like a child that asks to his mom to learn to speak in his place. This is what MOBAs do to people and this is why I hope competitive games will stop trying to copy them.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,584
    Dunno they're making these games called football and basketball like every year, with mostly minor changes to the rule set and they work out pretty well for about a hundred years now.

    Dunno if SF has to do something drastically new, except maybe having a bit of content, good menus and stable online play.
    Add me for some Tekken 7 if you're from Europe.
    I'm not playing anything else these days:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/NaughtySenpai/
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45

    Lolwut? Fighting games have been esports before esports even existed. They don't need to push it hard because the community is already behind it and keeps growing year after year. Just look at how massive EVO has become in spite of the fact SFV didn't sell as well as the previous series.

    Do you seriously want to compare the playerbase of an established MOBA such as LOL or DOTA 2 with Street Fighter ? Or the number of active streamers , viewers etc ?
    Despite what you're saying, the sales for DLC are pretty okay for Capcom and they already confirmed that the game will be supported until 2020.

    The only thing I can confirm is this. SFV did not meet its sales target, Barely 2500 concurrent users on Steam play SFV and CAPCOMs profits decreased. You can google all three.
    If anything, making it even simpler will make the competitive scene even more stale, which means that there will be less hype for the game in general. Would you still be interested in competitive chess if all pieces were the same and you could win the game in one move?
    Casuals don't need a "simpler game" to buy SF.

    Making what SIMPLER ??? How many times do I have to say this I want capcom to make a new game. Let SFV be as it is. It can't be changed radically enough to attract new players. plus the Botched release has ensured that no one buys the game.
    I am asking for a new game that IS NOT Street Fighter.
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45

    Lolwut? Fighting games have been esports before esports even existed. They don't need to push it hard because the community is already behind it and keeps growing year after year. Just look at how massive EVO has become in spite of the fact SFV didn't sell as well as the previous series.

    Do you seriously want to compare the playerbase of an established MOBA such as LOL or DOTA 2 with Street Fighter ? Or the number of active streamers , viewers etc ?
    Despite what you're saying, the sales for DLC are pretty okay for Capcom and they already confirmed that the game will be supported until 2020.

    The only thing I can confirm is this. SFV did not meet its sales target, Barely 2500 concurrent users on Steam play SFV and CAPCOMs profits decreased. You can google all three.
    If anything, making it even simpler will make the competitive scene even more stale, which means that there will be less hype for the game in general. Would you still be interested in competitive chess if all pieces were the same and you could win the game in one move?
    Casuals don't need a "simpler game" to buy SF.

    Making what SIMPLER ??? How many times do I have to say this I want capcom to make a new game. Let SFV be as it is. It can't be changed radically enough to attract new players. plus the Botched release has ensured that no one buys the game.
    I am asking for a new game that IS NOT Street Fighter.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    edited February 1
    noorsfv wrote: »
    Do you seriously want to compare the playerbase of an established MOBA such as LOL or DOTA 2 with Street Fighter ? Or the number of active streamers , viewers etc ?

    No, in the same way you don't compare the viewership of handball and football (aka soccer). That doesn't mean they should allow people to kick the ball in handball in order to make the sport more popular.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    The only thing I can confirm is this. SFV did not meet its sales target, Barely 2500 concurrent users on Steam play SFV and CAPCOMs profits decreased. You can google all three.

    "Barely" 2500? Have you seen the numbers for the OTHER fighting games???
    Capcom's profit decreased mainly because of the flop of Umbrella Corps. You can google that too.
    Jesus Christ, you really can't even read or think by yourself.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    Making what SIMPLER ??? How many times do I have to say this I want capcom to make a new game. Let SFV be as it is. It can't be changed radically enough to attract new players. plus the Botched release has ensured that no one buys the game.
    I am asking for a new game that IS NOT Street Fighter.

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    And if you want older titles:

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    latest?cb=20131017171928&path-prefix=sengokubasara

    latest?cb=20140209171757

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    You don't know shit about Capcom's fighting games, don't you?
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,732
    Training Mode grinding is part of every goddamn fighting game ever for a reason. Even games like Rising Thunder, which has no execution whatsoever has (or rather, would've had) that issue because the hardest part of a fighting game are the fundamentals. Sure, there are things like one frame links and ridiculously execution-heavy combos/set-ups but when you get right down to it, what wins you games is solid fundamentals. Spacing, pokes, shimmies, zoning, all that stuff is generally easy to do from a sheer execution standpoint, but hard as fuck to actually understand and use effectively at a competitive level. And if you don't have solid fundamentals, you're not going to be good at the game no matter how good your execution is.

    I think you misunderstand what the purpose of making fighting games easier to get into is. The idea isn't that you should be able to skip grinding it out in training mode. Quite the opposite. The idea is that without the excuse of execution being too hard, there's no reason for you to not be able to practice what fighting games are actually about. Because even if he didn't use a single combo or special move, odds are Justin Wong would beat you 99 times out of a 100 by just poking you to death.

    I hate the chess analogy, but it's pretty apt for this particular purpose. Much like how knowing how all the pieces move isn't the hardest part of chess, being able to hit all the combos isn't the hardest part of fighting games. It's knowing what to do, when to do it, risk assessment and reading your opponent.
    I suck dicks at fighting games.

    I also suck dicks. I don't think these two facts are related.
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45

    No, in the same way you don't compare the viewership of handball and football (aka soccer). That doesn't mean they should allow people to kick the ball in handball in order to make the sport more popular.

    Oh god. Here we go again.... I am not saying to change SFV, I am saying make a new game that will do exactly what they want it to do i.e. take it to a level where LOL is.

    eSports is booming at the moment and we want to make sure that Street Fighter is at the forefront of that. Right now – in terms of fighting games – we’re not at the level of League of Legends, but that’s where we want to be. We want to be the headline name in fighting eSports games

    http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/capcom-wants-street-fighter-v-to-be-no-1-in-esports/0153980
    "Barely" 2500? Have you seen the numbers for the OTHER fighting games???

    1) yes, and SFV will most probably have the same fate cause it is just like all those games. What different are they doing ? Isn't it another Street fighter , which has always had a bad retention rate.
    2) If they had a Units Sold target for SFV it means that the target must have some financial reasons. And since they missed the Units sold target I am assuming they must have missed the revenue target as well. Unless, people who were already angry at the half-baked release decided to spend loads of money on DLC content , which I doubt.
    And if you want older titles:

    You don't know shit about Capcom's fighting games, don't you?

    Neither I nor Capcom care about old titles. Exactly how many people play these games ? 1000 max ?
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,081
    edited February 1
    noorsfv wrote: »
    Hobbies and competitive games/sports are two different things. Playing a guitar or learning how to make furniture is like going to the gym. You aren't competing with anyone (Unless one is competing in a Mr.Universe competition) . Playing competitive sports is totally different.

    They are all hobbies. If you play basketball for fun but you also play against really good people who force you to work hard at it to beat them, you're still doing a hobby. My whole point was that some hobbies take hard work to reach a certain goal. The competitive aspect is irrelevant because the work is still required. It's not like learning to play an instrument is necessarily easier or more fun than learning to play fighters just because you aren't competing. That's subjective.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    SF players have SFV and they can play this game for the next 15 years. But capcom has to seriously stop trying to attract new customers while trying retain old SF loyalists, that isn't going to happen.
    SF fans will play Street fighter no matter what, they aren't going anywhere. So then why bother making a new SF game ? Make a new game that is going to attract "casual babies".

    SF fans do get tired of games after a while and want a new one with new characters and concepts. 15 years is a long stretch to play one game for anyone. Capcom would be losing money by not giving those people what they want. Plus the SF name carries weight and a new SF game will be bought by casuals who will only play it for a short while to get what they want out of it and move on. You're talking about not cashing in on that and taking a gamble for the sake of chasing the LoL dollars.

    Capcom did this not too long ago with Umbrella Corps and it did not work out for them because they are just not good at that. Look at the big names in esports. The biggest ones are Western releases made by Western devs and publishers. Capcom shouldn't be encouraged to take that on, especially since the company is pretty incompetent these days.

    I'm not sure why you're pushing for Capcom to do this if you don't want them to involve SF. Literally any decent sized publishers could do what Capcom does. It's the IPs that make Capcom valuable.

    edit: I notice you brought up SFV not meeting it's sales expectations. Do you know why that happened? It wasn't because the game is too hard for casuals. The game launched with almost nothing for casuals to do. No arcade mode. Survival mode and story modes suck. Online play isn't everyone's cup of tea, and even that was broken for like a week. The game was slammed by every major reviewer who touched it. Even to this day Capcom is too incompetent to see that the biggest complaint the casuals have about the game is the lack of an arcade mode. This is a mode they could probably throw together in a week and patch into the game, yet they won't do it. Capcom is very incompetent and you want them to take on the esports giants with a new IP? Yeah right.

    Like I said, all Capcom has to offer is their IPs. They aren't the fighting game masters they used to be. I mean, half the time they can't even be bothered to release translated announcements. You have to use google translate to figure out when the new content is arriving. They are incompetent.
    Post edited by Evolution169 on
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,908
    noorsfv wrote: »

    No, in the same way you don't compare the viewership of handball and football (aka soccer). That doesn't mean they should allow people to kick the ball in handball in order to make the sport more popular.

    Oh god. Here we go again.... I am not saying to change SFV, I am saying make a new game that will do exactly what they want it to do i.e. take it to a level where LOL is.

    You will soon have your Riot fighting game. One button specials because command motions are too hard, CD on each special because spamming is lame, there will be a popup asking you "do you want to anti-air? Y/N" for those who have slow reactions.
    Actually just watch Rising Thunder footage, that game would suit your interest. Though it would probably have been too hard for you still.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    "Barely" 2500? Have you seen the numbers for the OTHER fighting games???

    1) yes, and SFV will most probably have the same fate cause it is just like all those games.

    F'cking lol. SF had those numbers for years and it has always been the most popular fighting game. It's not going anywhere.
    noorsfv wrote: »
    And if you want older titles:

    You don't know shit about Capcom's fighting games, don't you?

    Neither I nor Capcom care about old titles.

    Well we don't care about your shit either. In all the time you spent here complaining about how hard this game is for special children* you could've probably learned to block air normals and even anti-air them.

    * and I say these but there are people who are able to play this game WITH THEIR FACE ALONE:

    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Cap Marvel/Thanos (Time)
  • noorsfvnoorsfv Joined: Posts: 45

    They are all hobbies. If you play basketball for fun but you also play against really good people who force you to work hard at it to beat them, you're still doing a hobby. My whole point was that some hobbies take hard work to reach a certain goal. The competitive aspect is irrelevant because the work is still required. It's not like learning to play an instrument is necessarily easier or more fun than learning to play fighters just because you aren't competing. That's subjective.

    What is that goal ?

    For example I play squash because I want to stay in shape. That is it. I am not going to beat my coach , he knows that , I know that. I give it an Hour because I know my goal i.e. Staying Healthy. When people spend loads and loads of hours playing one video game what is their goal. 99% of all the players will never go pro. They won't stream nor will they become active part of the community then why would anyone want to spend that kind of time ?
    Does the FGC never ask itself question , why do fighting games have such a bad retention rate ?
    SF fans do get tired of games after a while and want a new one with new characters and concepts. 15 years is a long stretch to play one game for anyone. Capcom would be losing money by not giving those people what they want. Plus the SF name carries weight and a new SF game will be bought by casuals who will only play it for a short while to get what they want out of it and move on. You're talking about not cashing in on that and taking a gamble for the sake of chasing the LoL dollars.

    Well this is also a problem. There is no standardization. MOBAs tend to have 1 or 2 maps and the gameplay barely changes, if at all. SF on the other can't decide. The fighting community has to decide which SF they consider to be the best in every possible way and then set it as a benchmark. Capcom can keep updating SFV till 2025 , keep adding content.
    As for casual moving on. Is this what the FGC wants or thinks is preferable ? A new game is just made so casual can spend money on it and then move on ? This doesn't help anyone neither pros nor casuals.
    Fighting games are notorious for ripping of people. Releasing new versions doesn't help, plus you guys need to get standardized. SFIII , IV and V are three completely different game.
    edit: I notice you brought up SFV not meeting it's sales expectations. Do you know why that happened? It wasn't because the game is too hard for casuals. The game launched with almost nothing for casuals to do. No arcade mode. Survival mode and story modes suck. Online play isn't everyone's cup of tea, and even that was broken for like a week. .... This is a mode they could probably throw together in a week and patch into the game, yet they won't do it. Capcom is very incompetent and you want them to take on the esports giants with a new IP? Yeah right.

    Everyone knows that. They were pushing in both directions at the same time i.e. the esports and the casuals direction. I think I have already shared a link where they said they would like to be like LOL. Yes, they want that kind of money. But SFV won't be that game.
    They have to do what Sirlin and Seth Killian are doing.

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