Real whiff punish in SFV

IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
edited March 14 in Newbie Saikyo Dojo
....I mean, so many guide/ tutorials talk about a neutral game situation where both of players can move back and forth: player one walk forward, then walk back , opponent normal whiffed, punish.
Ok , but this never happens in real matches in street fighter V.
99,9% of the whiff punish are someway induced at the end of a frame trap or after a single normal blocked, either in advantage/disadvantage on block situations : for example, Ryu clp Shp on block from max distance, than crouch back for an istant, if ken tries cr mk than whiffs and Ryu punish with sweep.
Or Ryu clp cmp on block , microstep back, after the adv on block of cmp, Ken whiffs cr mk, than punish.
In the neutral game where both of players can change distances any time is almost impossibile because whiff punish is knowledge of what button at what distance the opponent will land, but if the opponent can vary distances any time we can only try placed moves/prediction moves in the hope of stuffing an opponent button .

Only after a situation where we know exactly for a bunch of frames that the opponent will not move his pg ( again , after a block situation , rarely in corner ) we can setup a whiff punish . Imho

What do you think guys
Post edited by IlGattone on

Comments

  • ronniethekingronnietheking Joined: Posts: 36
    yeah pretty much u do a block string that has pushback on it
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    I think you should see more high level matches and work on your footsies.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • nozarexnozarex . Joined: Posts: 114
    edited March 14
    dude check out yamadataros chun, his whole gameplan is playing footsies and whiffpunishing

    image
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 14
    I think you should see more high level matches and work on your footsies.

    I don't think so, can you give me your point of view about neutral game whiff punishes so I can change my opinion?
    Post edited by IlGattone on
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 14
    nozarex wrote: »
    dude check out yamadataros chun, his whole gameplan is playing footsies and whiffpunishing

    image

    thanks but that proves my opinion . Almost the whiff punishes are induced by an action , string, or normal on block.

    0:13 = after a tech throw yamadataro knows that any normal of necalli whiffs so he waits that sweep and then punish
    0:16 = chun sweep on block , necalli whiffs again , punish with c mk
    0:33 = chun make whiff necalli sweep because he's in the corner, he can't go back, so yamadataro knows exactly the range where to land that Shp.
    .....and so on

    any other attempt from neutral ( both of players can move back and forth ) comes with a placed normal in the hope of stuff something, there's no whiff punish in these situations imho.
  • AirLancerAirLancer Just a touch of Honey Joined: Posts: 743
    IlGattone wrote: »
    ....I mean, so many guide/ tutorials talk about a neutral game situation where both of players can move back and forth: player one walk forward, then walk back , opponent normal whiffed, punish.
    Ok , but this never happens in real matches in street fighter V.
    99,9% of the whiff punish are someway induced at the end of a frame trap or after a single normal blocked, either in advantage/disadvantage on block situations : for example, Ryu clp Shp on block from max distance, than crouch back for an istant, if ken tries cr mk than whiffs and Ryu punish with sweep.
    Or Ryu clp cmp on block , microstep back, after the adv on block of cmp, Ken whiffs cr mk, than punish.
    In the neutral game where both of players can change distances any time is almost impossibile because whiff punish is knowledge of what button at what distance the opponent will land, but if the opponent can vary distances any time we can only try placed moves/prediction moves in the hope of stuffing an opponent button .
    What do you think guys

    Well, the fact that walk speeds suck in SF5 contribute to what you're saying. Older games with faster walk speeds were more conducive to this kind of play, but in SF it's much harder to do this kind of thing because walk speeds are so slow.

    KOF XIV: Andy/K'/Robert
    PSN: AirLancer
    Hit me up (when the patch drops).
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    IlGattone wrote: »
    I think you should see more high level matches and work on your footsies.

    I'm a Ryu player ...I don't think so, can you give me your point of view about neutral game whiff punishes so I can change my opinion?

    They are harder than in previous games but totally possible. Cammys punish with st. HP all day long, same as Mikas with st. MP and same for many other characters. With Laura I find myself whiff punishing with st./cr. HP in many situations.
    Ryu has a harder time punishing simply because his normals are stubby and he gets nothing off his longest range pokes.

    Also the examples you give show that you don't understand very well whiff punishing in general. 0:33 is a perfect example of whiff punishing in neutral, as he had to put himself in the right position to bait the sweep, make it whiff and punish it with st. HP. He also whiff punishes the sweep with cr. MK (0:17), b+MK with st. HK (1:35), st. MP with st. HP (8:17). The video is a bad example however because the youtuber picked mainly matches where she was always on top of her opponent and there was almost no neutral at all.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 14
    IlGattone wrote: »
    I think you should see more high level matches and work on your footsies.

    I'm a Ryu player ...I don't think so, can you give me your point of view about neutral game whiff punishes so I can change my opinion?

    They are harder than in previous games but totally possible. Cammys punish with st. HP all day long, same as Mikas with st. MP and same for many other characters. With Laura I find myself whiff punishing with st./cr. HP in many situations.
    Ryu has a harder time punishing simply because his normals are stubby and he gets nothing off his longest range pokes.

    Also the examples you give show that you don't understand very well whiff punishing in general. 0:33 is a perfect example of whiff punishing in neutral, as he had to put himself in the right position to bait the sweep, make it whiff and punish it with st. HP. He also whiff punishes the sweep with cr. MK (0:17), b+MK with st. HK (1:35), st. MP with st. HP (8:17). The video is a bad example however because the youtuber picked mainly matches where she was always on top of her opponent and there was almost no neutral at all.

    0:33 and 0:17 like I said, are "setup" whiff punish , the opponent doesn't move (first example after throw pushback, second in corner ) so chun can stand at the right distance to make whiff that normal because he knows the opponent position and probably the most common normal he can land from that distance ,so there's a pure reaction .
    8:17 is the only whiff punish in true neutral situation in ten minutes of video , but is really character dependent ( chun li st hp is godlike for this purpose ) , most of the cast can't punish a normal that way.

    I think that 90% of whiff punish in sfv are someway induced by a block situation because you know opponent position and probably the best poke he can land from that position , you made a situation where the opponent can throw only 1/2 normal , with the help of a fixed position that YOU spaced with normals pushback or a corner situation.
    10% in true neutral game (no corner no block situation ) but is really character dependent ( chun li st hp and a few others ) .
    Other whiff punish situations from true neutral game come from a read, not a reaction , because the variable of position (opponent can move anytime back and forth) can't give you the opportunity to react in time or expect a precise normal, so most of the time you go back and forth and press buttons ( st hp os spiral arrow for example ) but is a casual whiff punish , you don't react , you think that he could press that normal.

    Sorry for my english guys
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    You think but you're wrong. All whiff punishes implies such setups. You just don't get the fundamentals of it.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 14
    You think but you're wrong. All whiff punishes implies such setups. You just don't get the fundamentals of it.

    Ok I'm open to dialogue with a more experienced player I suppose. I explained my point of view and I analyzed a casual video . Even chun li that is more footsies oriented 90% of time whiffpunished in that video the way I explained.
    Can you explain better where I'm wrong? Thanks
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,350
    edited March 14
    What He's trying to say is that SFV plays like MKX minus the overly long juggle and stupid vortex elements it is. Theres a lot less fluidity, because everything is being played off of commitment options that either worked or didn't.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    IlGattone wrote: »
    You think but you're wrong. All whiff punishes implies such setups. You just don't get the fundamentals of it.

    Ok I'm open to dialogue with a more experienced player I suppose. I explained my point of view and I analyzed a casual video . Even chun li that is more footsies oriented 90% of time whiffpunished in that video the way I explained.
    Can you explain better where I'm wrong? Thanks

    What can I explain more? I already told you that EVERY whiff punish is in reality a setup and you keep saying that she isn't whiff punishing because she's setting things up... Whiff punishing is not just "he pressed button A, I press button B", it implies to 1. choose a button you want to whiff punish with 2. wait for the opponent to do something at a specific range 3. position yourself so to make him press buttons that you can punish on whiff. Denying that the punished sweep is a whiff punish because the enemy is in a corner position is just being oblivious of the entire work of positioning that lies behind whiff punishing.
    S00perCam wrote: »
    What He's trying to say is that SFV plays like MKX minus the overly long juggle and stupid vortex elements it is. Theres a lot less fluidity, because everything is being played off of commitment options that either worked or didn't.
    I get it, but it is just wrong. Whiff punish exists in this game, it is just harder than in other games. Every person saying this game has no whiff punishing just likes talking through hyperboles.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 893
    edited March 15
    IlGattone wrote: »
    You think but you're wrong. All whiff punishes implies such setups. You just don't get the fundamentals of it.

    Ok I'm open to dialogue with a more experienced player I suppose. I explained my point of view and I analyzed a casual video . Even chun li that is more footsies oriented 90% of time whiffpunished in that video the way I explained.
    Can you explain better where I'm wrong? Thanks

    You don't just whiff punish, you have to proactively nudge your opponent into whiffing a normal at a time and space when you're ready to react. Whiff punishing random normals won't happen unless you're lucky with an empty buffer, the reaction window is too slim to catch unpredictable stray pokes. When you can use your movement and pick up on tendencies, then it's a good time to go for a whiff punish. So in a way, the situations in neutral are almost exactly like the example you mentioned, but without having to use blockstrings to coax out a whiff. It can be nothing but movement, walking forward and poking to nudge your opponent to attempt an interrupt, whiffing a jab ect. Replace "blockstring" with any of those examples and it will be successful depending on player tendency.

    image

    This video is important for correctly framing your understanding of whiff punishment too
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,705 mod
    Whiff punishing is always about making your opponent press the wrong button at the wrong time so you can punish it. This is either through some movement or a button press in neutral (e.g. slight step forward or hitting light buttons to bait a poke in neutral), or leaving gaps in your blockstrings (aka frame trapping).
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 15
    @OceanMachine , @MochaLatte , @d3v , I agree with all of you ( I saw juicebox video and others ) my English don't help myself .

    I'm saying , like all of you , that all examples I mentioned are whiff punish , real whiff punish.

    I'm just talking about how often we see a type of whiff punish .

    I'm saying that " make your opponent press the wrong button and punish " when he's in block stun , after a tech throw, or in the corner, is MORE COMMON in sfv and we see often these type of whiff punish, because your opponent has less options or is stuck in a precise position for a few frames and so you're more sure he will press that button.

    This is an example of what I'm saying , the most common whiff punish situations
    image


    More rarely ( in sfv ) we see other examples ( when both of players have all the options and can move back and forth ) like " ryu bait a jab in the neutral, ken whiffs s hk , ryu punish with s lk os tatsu " because in these situations there are more variables, both players have all the options.

    Can we agree with that?


  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,705 mod
    Because that's simply how the game is designed with its stubbier hit boxes.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 893
    edited March 15
    Yup, there's more variables in neutral. Anything can happen, neutral is really hard, and whiff punishment is hard. There are a ton of things to take into consideration, and at the end of the day the best you can do is make an educated guess sometimes. The many variables can be simplified with situational awareness and muscle memory, but even then it will never be as simple as your example in neutral.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    What can I explain more? I already told you that EVERY whiff punish is in reality a setup
    This is either completely wrong, or you are misusing the word "setup".

    Whiff-punishing is traditionally part of the Rock, Paper, Scissors game of Footsies. Offensive Poking beats Whiff Punish strat, Defensive Poking beats Offensive Poking, Whiff Punish strat beats Defensive Poking. There is no setup here. There is just spacing, movement and reactions. This is what I think OP is talking about. No spacing on block situations.
    Post edited by ilitirit on
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 15
    @ilitirit Yes but I'm trying to explain , in sfv , in neutral game when both player have all the options, you cannot count only on spacing and reaction and try whiff punish, I mean is still possible but is very rare and character dependent , it's more common and guaranteed ( in sfv ! ) set your space ( you decide that space ) after a block situation , in the corner when opponent can't go back, etc , and try to whiff punish , like the video I posted above

  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    IlGattone wrote: »
    @ilitirit Yes but I'm trying to explain , in sfv , in neutral game when both player have all the options, you cannot count only on spacing and reaction and try whiff punish, I mean is still possible but is very rare and character dependent , it's more common and guaranteed ( in sfv ! ) set your space ( you decide that space ) after a block situation , in the corner when opponent can't go back, etc , and try to whiff punish , like the video I posted above

    I agree 100%. I think this is something that was known about the game from the start if you looked at it in relation to how it worked in older games.

    It was acknowledged at the start that there were only a handful of characters equipped to play footsies in the traditional way: Cammy, Chun Li, Vega and Karin. But even then characters like Karin had the limitation that the space where they were strongest in footsies was where they were weak at anti-airing. So even though "footsie" characters do exist, it doesn't mean that they will be allowed to play this way. Why bother to play footsies when you can just jump at them? Also, why for example would Bison even try to play footsies? He simply isn't equipped to do so. Instead, he is more likely to look for opportunities to get in your face and start a frame-trap/throw game. And his opponent, even if they could play the RPS style of footsies would rather be trying to play in a way to counter his strategy.

    This is why you don't see it often in SFV. Characters are not equipped to play in that way, and even those who are are unlikely to use these techniques when the opponent is playing in a way that requires a different approach.
    Post edited by ilitirit on
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    ilitirit wrote: »
    What can I explain more? I already told you that EVERY whiff punish is in reality a setup
    This is either completely wrong, or you are misusing the word "setup".

    Whiff-punishing is traditionally part of the Rock, Paper, Scissors game of Footsies. Offensive Poking beats Whiff Punish strat, Defensive Poking beats Offensive Poking, Whiff Punish strat beats Defensive Poking. There is no setup here. There is just spacing and reactions. This is what I think OP is talking about. No spacing on block situations.

    I'm using setup in the larger sense of setting up for a situation as opposed to a pure guts reaction. MochaLatte and d3v said the same thing, whiff punishing is a game of observing, baiting and creating the favorable situation where the opponent will press a button that you can punish with a specific button.
    Meanwhile OP keeps insisting that moving towards an opponent in a corner to bait a low, then moving back and punishing it on whiff is not the same thing as doing it midscreen.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    I'm using setup in the larger sense of setting up for a situation as opposed to a pure guts reaction. MochaLatte and d3v said the same thing, whiff punishing is a game of observing, baiting and creating the favorable situation where the opponent will press a button that you can punish with a specific button.

    It doesn't really work like that. Whiff punish is part of the RPS dynamic. When you play a game of RPS, you can't just say "I'll wait for my opportunity to play scissors". There are two other ground options (not to mention jumping, retreating, specials etc). Opponents try to size each other up by doing "the dance" and the one with the better spacing, movement and reactions usually wins. If you think he is going to try to stop you from advancing, you might wait for that defensive poke. If you read is wrong, you'll either end up getting walked to the corner, or you'll get tagged by him walking forward and going low (this is why backwards walk speeds is usually slower than forward walkspeeds).

    This video demo's the basics. It's in Japanese but you can see what is meant from the action. Skip to 2m25s
    image

    Footsies is a dynamic game. There are no "setups" because your opponent has the same options as you.
    Post edited by ilitirit on
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    ilitirit wrote: »
    IlGattone wrote: »
    @ilitirit Yes but I'm trying to explain , in sfv , in neutral game when both player have all the options, you cannot count only on spacing and reaction and try whiff punish, I mean is still possible but is very rare and character dependent , it's more common and guaranteed ( in sfv ! ) set your space ( you decide that space ) after a block situation , in the corner when opponent can't go back, etc , and try to whiff punish , like the video I posted above

    I agree 100%. I think this is something that was known about the game from the start if you looked at it in relation to how it worked in older games.

    It was acknowledged at the start that there were only a handful of characters equipped to play footsies in the traditional way: Cammy, Chun Li, Vega and Karin. But even then characters like Karin had the limitation that the space where they were strongest in footsies was where they were weak at anti-airing. So even though "footsie" characters do exist, it doesn't mean that they will be allowed to play this way. Why bother to play footsies when you can just jump at them? Also, why for example would Bison even try to play footsies? He simply isn't equipped to do so. Instead, he is more likely to look for opportunities to get in your face and start a frame-trap/throw game. And his opponent, even if they could play the RPS style of footsies would rather be trying to play in a way to counter his strategy.

    This is why you don't see it often in SFV. Characters are not equipped to play in that way, and even those who are unlikely to use these techniques when the opponent is playing in a way that requires a different approach.

    I agree 100%
  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    ilitirit wrote: »
    What can I explain more? I already told you that EVERY whiff punish is in reality a setup
    This is either completely wrong, or you are misusing the word "setup".

    Whiff-punishing is traditionally part of the Rock, Paper, Scissors game of Footsies. Offensive Poking beats Whiff Punish strat, Defensive Poking beats Offensive Poking, Whiff Punish strat beats Defensive Poking. There is no setup here. There is just spacing and reactions. This is what I think OP is talking about. No spacing on block situations.

    I'm using setup in the larger sense of setting up for a situation as opposed to a pure guts reaction. MochaLatte and d3v said the same thing, whiff punishing is a game of observing, baiting and creating the favorable situation where the opponent will press a button that you can punish with a specific button.
    Meanwhile OP keeps insisting that moving towards an opponent in a corner to bait a low, then moving back and punishing it on whiff is not the same thing as doing it midscreen.

    I'm not saying that, @ilitirit explained my point of view, sorry if my english creates problems
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 893
    ilitirit wrote: »
    I'm using setup in the larger sense of setting up for a situation as opposed to a pure guts reaction. MochaLatte and d3v said the same thing, whiff punishing is a game of observing, baiting and creating the favorable situation where the opponent will press a button that you can punish with a specific button.

    It doesn't really work like that. Whiff punish is part of the RPS dynamic. When you play a game of RPS, you can't just say "I'll wait for my opportunity to play scissors". There are two other ground options (not to mention jumping, retreating, specials etc). Opponents try to size each other up by doing "the dance" and the one with the better spacing, movement and reactions usually wins. If you think he is going to try to stop you from advancing, you might wait for that defensive poke. If you read is wrong, you'll either end up getting walked to the corner, or you'll get tagged by him walking forward and going low (this is why backwards walk speeds is usually slower than forward walkspeeds).

    This video demo's the basics. It's in Japanese but you can see what is meant from the action. Skip to 2m25s
    image

    Footsies is a dynamic game. There are no "setups" because your opponent has the same options as you.

    Goddamn, seems like it was easier to whiff punish in that game

    Setups, "not setups" doesn't matter, I think you're still saying the same thing but focusing on the semantics.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Setups, "not setups" doesn't matter, I think you're still saying the same thing but focusing on the semantics.
    I'm not. I'm saying that the RPS footsie game associated with previous titles is much weaker in SFV, to the point where it's noticeable that certain aspects of it are rarely seen. Like whiff-punishing. This is of course one of the things talk about most often, but offensive poking is also weaker. Defensive pokes are still there, but more often than not you'll just find that players both whiffing moves out of range (ie. they are both playing "Paper"), and one wins by virtue of hitboxes and/or the priority system.

    What you guys seem to be saying all this is intact in SFV, and the only reason you don't see it is because it's hard to do in general.

  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    Everyone agrees that whiff punishing is weaker in SFV, but that is completely off the point. OP was saying that whiff punishing mostly if not only happens in SFV if people press buttons after you pushed them too far away, which is character dependent at best. People whiff punish you if you try to continue a blockstring out of range and some characters with good normals and walk speed like Cammy will whiff punish you with st. HP pretty much anywhere.

    I had to say that whiff punishing is a "setup" to stress the fact that it requires a plan to put you and your opponent in a situation where his normal will whiff and yours will hit the extended limb. Saying it's a game of reads and conditioning like you did amounts to the same thing.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    I had to say that whiff punishing is a "setup" to stress the fact that it requires a plan to put you and your opponent in a situation where his normal will whiff and yours will hit the extended limb. Saying it's a game of reads and conditioning like you did amounts to the same thing.
    There is no "setup". There is only situation. The reason Zangief can't whiff punish Guile as he is being zoned out isn't because Gief doesn't have a setup for it.

    But let's say that I accept your definition of "setup". Then you also have to consider firstly the ability to create that situation, and secondly the concept of being able to capitalize on it.

    As an extreme example, imagine someone asking why you don't see people use SFIV Ryu's close st.lk often. Well, it's only usable up close. Let's suppose I can "set up" a situation against the opponent where I can finally use it. The first question of course is why would anyone possibly want to do that? Why would I exert so much energy and risk so much for a move that is so weak? He has much better options at that range and others. Similarly, why would most characters attempt to play a traditional footsie game in SFV? Often it's safer (and more rewarding) to either find a way to bypass this phase completely, or fish with Crush Counters or buffered specials. Now of course these have their place in mid-range ground game, but it's clear that this isn't what OP is talking about.

    My point is that even if one were to accept your definition of "set up", it doesn't mean that the reason OP isn't seeing it is because he is bad at footsies or not watching enough high level matches. SFV is not a game that lends itself to this style of play. That's all there is to it.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    Do you intend keeping on arguing about semantics for much longer instead of being in topic?
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    Do you intend keeping on arguing about semantics for much longer instead of being in topic?

    I'm referring to this:
    IlGattone wrote: »
    .What do you think guys
    I think you should see more high level matches and work on your footsies.

    You also disagreed with his post. There's no semantics there. It is obvious what your implication was, but the truth is much simpler. SFV is not a game that lends itself to traditional footsie play. I'm not sure why you have a problem with this statement.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    You still didn't even care to read his exact question, but whatever bro.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    I did and I answered, in detail. I mean, he even said he agrees 100% with my response?

    If there's something about his question and/or my explanation you don't understand, go ahead and ask.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    Nah sorry, I respect autistic people but I'm not equipped to deal with them.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    Nah sorry, I respect autistic people but I'm not equipped to deal with them.

    Perhaps you should be spending more time questions here instead of attempting to answer them.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    edited March 15
    It's fine ilitirit. You're not the only guru of the FGC. You don't have to feel compelled to give lessons to prove that nobody else understands things.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    You didn't have to edit your response. I'm not gonna flag you or screen cap it. Just remember this is the Saikyo Dojo. Try to be more helpful.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,347
    The guy didn't really ask questions but exposed his theory about how whiff punishes work in SFV and insisted he was right even when people pointed out he was misinterpreting the very nature of whiff punishing. He never asked if whiff punishing is hard in this game and said that "99,9% of the time" it only happens if the opponent whiffs a button after that your blockstring pushed him too far. You never attempted to reply to this very statement but instead went on with your lesson about how "traditional footsies" don't exist in SFV.

    The fact he approved what you're saying doesn't prove anything since he barely understands the concept of whiff punishing. He probably just did that because you said you agreed with him.
    [SF5] Laura, Vega
    [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie
    [Xrd] Leo
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 15
    The guy didn't really ask questions but exposed his theory about how whiff punishes work in SFV and insisted he was right even when people pointed out he was misinterpreting the very nature of whiff punishing. He never asked if whiff punishing is hard in this game and said that "99,9% of the time" it only happens if the opponent whiffs a button after that your blockstring pushed him too far. You never attempted to reply to this very statement but instead went on with your lesson about how "traditional footsies" don't exist in SFV.

    The fact he approved what you're saying doesn't prove anything since he barely understands the concept of whiff punishing. He probably just did that because you said you agreed with him.

    I did in fact respond 100% to his question.
    You see where he says this?
    e can only try placed moves/prediction moves in the hope of stuffing an opponent button .

    You don't need to fully comprehend his broken english to understand his question.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/185451/ground-game-breakdown

    "Placed" move = Defensive Poke. If you know this, then it should be very clear what he is asking.

    Then I went on to explain why it doesn't happen that often in SFV, and I didn't just stop at Whiff Punishing. I went on to explain why Defensive Pokes are the most commonly seen ground game technique in another post.

    Do you disagree with anything that I said?

  • IlGattoneIlGattone Joined: Posts: 25
    edited March 16
    Whiff punishing when your opponent options are limited is more simple and guaranteed, that's what I'm saying.
    After a blocked Ryu S mk proprerly spaced , or a fb, you can bait a response from your opponent because it's his turn. You're ready because you created a precise space and your focus is ready for punish that normal. We most commonly see these examples even in high level matches; a guy 15 reply ago posted a casual video about chun high level play and I proved that mostly whiff punish is baited, in sfv, from these situations.
    I never said classic whiff punish in neutral situations doesn't exist in sfv, but is character dependent ( chun , cammy , karin etc ) and generally more difficult because there are more variables in play.
    In neutral mostly we land a placed move , searching a cc, stuffing a dash, a walk, a normal , but these are preemptive moves .
    Neutral 90% placed moves , 10% classic whiff punish.

    I'd like to share and discuss about my point of view but @oceanmachine replies like " you don't understand " ..., well I don't think it's a proper reply for newbie saiko dojo. Prove your point of view or your replies doesn't help people trying to understand whiff punish in sfv.
    I offered my point of view, you only negated it.
  • JasonWalravenJasonWalraven Joined: Posts: 529
    I think also you don't quite get the term "Wiff" a wiffed move is one that does not connect. If you stick out a move and it is blocked and you punish it, it is not a wiff punish. a wiff punish is when you punish the opponents poking attempt
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,003
    edited March 21
    I think also you don't quite get the term "Wiff" a wiffed move is one that does not connect. If you stick out a move and it is blocked and you punish it, it is not a wiff punish. a wiff punish is when you punish the opponents poking attempt

    He's talking about doing a setup that baits the opponent into using a certain poke, but it whiffs because the setup puts him just out of range.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,230
    edited March 27
    If you guys want to see a clinic of someone using exactly that in sf5 (a pokestring designed to bait wiffs and then the guy who did the pokestring, wiff punishing the opponent) just watch punk versus flash metroids laura and ryu at this esl tournament.

    Punk does various variations of st.lk,st.lp,cr.mk pokestring, then flash would block it and try to move in with either a dash or a forward walking poke and punk would pre emptively wiff punish him via wiff buffer or some such:

    Punk is definitely using a setup here, but he's not truly wiff punishing reactively. He's throwing out wiff buffers to catch shit.. he's just got a setup pokestring for it.

    Watch 1:17:40 to see a perfectly executed version (st.lk,st.lp,cr.mk walk back st.mp xx mk scythe wiff buffer) then watch the rest of the set to see how punk continues to use it in various ways.

    image
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 51,534
    edited March 27
    TBH even in other SF style games, reactive whiff punishes (and whiff punishes in general) don't really happen that often. I can pull up plenty of SFIV matches or Alpha 2 matches where people are just whiffing buttons near each other as well. Lot of variables have to come into place to realistically get a reactive whiff punish in any game. The easiest one is to sweep a sweep, but anything past that requires a lot of work that's hard to do on just pure reaction.

    In SFIV Adon is one of those characters that really simplifies footsies down (he was the same in A2). He can throw s.HK at a range where there's not much you can really do to whiff punish it and it's a 2 hit which beats focus armor as well. It takes Momochi plenty of matches to even come up with a s.LP tatsu as some type of whiff punish. Even then the odds are still genearlly in Gamerbee's favor to keep using it in neutral as it just requires way more work to whiff punish than it does to space it in footsies.

    image


    Even in A2 with this Rose vs Ken match, you get the Rose player getting a couple close ranged sweep whiff punishes on Ken's c.MK early into the first round and then that's about all you really get. Wasn't any real long ranged whiff punishes going on. Ken is not really going to whiff punish anything she is doing because she has a sweep that is way longer than any of his buttons (especially the ones he could whiff punish with). Otherwise in the mid range there's a lot of button whiffing or placement of buttons.

    image

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,230
    edited March 28
    @DevilJin 01

    It's because, as I said years and years ago.. lots of "wiff punishing" isn't actually wiff punishing. It's wiff "pressuring" as an easy example, me versus Valle in A3 his ryu versus my gen. when playing he would make me wiff my st.mk then he would walk in on me and pressure me with his blocked cr.mk xx fireball as I was recovering. He did this over and over again to the point of extreme obviousness. So I adjusted and started to do st.mk (wiff) st.mk. Which hit him the first time. After that, he didn't wiff pressure my st.mk anymore nearly as obviously. He probably only wiff pressured me 1 out of 4 or 5 times after that. But his adjustment was immediate so he knew the situation he was creating before I even made my adjustment.

    In sf5 though because of the binary interactions of ground game normals plus the slow walkspeed and lack of being able to really cancel moves into safe specials... wiff pressuring becomes less of a thing. And wiff punishing becomes less of a thing because most wiff punish buttons are super unsafe.

    Wiff pressuring should probably come back, but a lot more people are aware of the wiff x2 OS now that I described up above, so wiff pressuring is much less safe and that makes it all about wiff punishing... which is also harder so the game basically has both strategies take a back seat.

    That A2 vid just seemed like a matchup where neither player was really concerned with playing footsies.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 51,534
    The A2 match definitely had footsies in it. Kinda have to be concerned with footsies to whiff punish twice that early into the round.


    If you look at John Choi vs Justin in A2, it's more of the same just slower. Lots of placed stuff, but nary an actual whiff punish. Maybe some whiff pressure or whatever other cute stuff, but you're not reactively getting whiff hits often in any SF really.
    image

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,230
    Those were both guess punishes in the A2 match, you can tell because of the spacing and timing of both punishes.

    But yeah I agree that reactive wiff punishing wasn't a huge thing back in the day. It was a thing definitely, and was ever present in some matchups, but in most it wasn't huge reactively speaking.

    I mean if we are talking about pre emotive wiff punishes I do tha shit all day long in sf5 with Chuns fmp and her st.hp. But those wiff punishes are weak because they don't do much damage nor do they give good pressure on success.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    edited March 28
    I think you guys are missing an important point. One of the reasons it wasn't a "big" thing was because people knew the option existed. This opened up the neutral game to other options, which in turn is of course what makes SF fun. This is why you didn't often find characters repeatedly whiffing pokes in neutral (in punish range), and it's one of the reasons 3S Chun is considered strong. Her cr.mk is quite hard to whiff-punish, and this makes Chun vs Chun matchups play out the way they do. Guile's cr.mk was also notoriously hard to punish in SFII. But even then it wasn't unbeatable. Here's a well-known anecdote from Daigo:
    In super street fighter II X (ST), guile?s crouching MK is a big threat to Daigo?s Ryu.

    I was told that if guile?s c. mk whiffed, ryu can punish it with c. hk, but I can?t do that on reaction at the beginning.

    So what I did is that I use FC?s SSFT2X as a training tool and set the speed to turbo x10.

    Once I got comfortable at that speed, my eye and hand can react to it after a long period of training.

    Now when I face guile in a real match, the c. mk is like a slow motion to me and I have 100% confidence that I can punish it if it whiffs.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/4076298/#Comment_4076298
    (translation is wrong. FC = Super Famicom = SNES. SSFT2X = HF)

    There's a better interview elsewhere where he says that he thought it was impossible till he saw a Gief player whiff-punish it on reaction every time, and that's what made him go home and practice with a friend. During the hours of training on speed 10, he never managed to truly punish it even once, but going back to the arcade the move was in "slow motion" to him.

    But yeah, whiff-punishing everything on reaction every time is impossible. Just like Anti-Airing every time on reaction. Even top players block jumps when they have time to AA, and jumps are much slower than whiffed moves.

    The point is that whiff punishing in neutral is most definitely a "thing", and some of the reasons you don't see it that often in older games are (barring the fact that it is considered a skill):
    1. Because of how the metagame works (ie. good players will play neutral in a way so that you are focused on something else)
    2. Because good players won't often whiff punishable moves against other players (in the same way they won't jump repeatedly).

    These are things you don't generally consider because it applies to everything in the game, not just whiff-punishing.

    One thing that players *should* consider is that if they really find stuff like whiff-punishing on reaction in the course of a match beyond their reach, maybe they are just playing on a laggy setup.
    Post edited by ilitirit on
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,230
    It's funny but using gief in ST, the only way I could beat guile was to hit guiles cr.mk with giefs sweep. That gave a knockdown into jumpin Spd. But it was super hard to do and I couldn't do it on reaction. The entire matchup was me trying to trade a boom with a sweep or trying to hit guiles cr.mk with my sweep.

    That shits still like a 7-3 matchup.. pure torture.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,413
    unless the recovery is high then you arent really whiff punishing on reaction that much
    thats just the way most 2d fighters work
    most moves are actually faster
    but yeah it mostly depends on recovery frames
    im sure if you were constantly buffering the motion for a fast special move and you saw some body whiff something then you could do it on reaction. but in terms of normals punishing thats few and far between rather its anticipation most of the time
    besides you dont want to be looking too long or else you'll get tunnel vision trying to punish the whiff anyways
Sign In or Register to comment.