Icons: Combat Arena (wavedash games)

truendymiontruendymion Beer Me!Joined: Posts: 2,210
edited July 18 in Fighting Game Discussion
UPDATE:
First gameplay trailer:

Open Beta signup: https://icons.gg/

They just raised an additional 6 million in their latest funding round...
Their vision's won over a hearty list of venture capital firms: March Capital, Lowercase Capital, Advancit Capital, CourtsideVC, Machine Shop Ventures, Luma Labs, and Cherrytree VC. The $6 million, according to Rice, will get them to a launch window for the game in the second fiscal quarter of 2018.
JESUS!
“In talking with players we felt there was an opportunity to do for the platform fighter genre what League Of Legends has done for MOBA,”
So what I'm getting from this is you need to invoke melee and MOBA if you want the big bucks...


https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/02/wavedash-raises-6-million-for-its-platform-fighting-game/?utm_content=buffer40675&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
https://pvplive.net/c/wavedash-games-raises-a-6-million-bid-into-the-pla
Post edited by truendymion on

Comments

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited May 3
    So I guess they're not really indie anymore...

    They're now directly competing with Smash. Even Rivals had to make do with a relatively small amount and knew there was no way they could eclipse Smash.
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  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,053
    Of course it's competing with Smash, but not because of the budget. They said that they want to do with platform fighters what LoL has done for MOBAs. That's extremely ambitious.

    But I'm sure Nintendo had much more than $6 million behind Smash 4's development and marketing. Saying that $6 million somehow puts them in the same development league as Smash seems like a leap. Nintendo probably spent more than that on just the marketing budget.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited May 4
    I didn't say anything about their budget, I meant that they're trying directly to compete with Smash by attempting to make their game the League of Legends of Smash clones. Supposing that they're successful, they'll be directly competing with Smash with the LoL-style business model.

    And that probably means I'll want no part of it. I am not at all interested in League.
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  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,053
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    And that probably means I'll want no part of it. I am not at all interested in League.

    I'm not against F2P if the game is good enough. I probably spent over $200 in Planetside 2, but that was over the course of years and thousands of hours.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    If its anything like the KI model than I won't have a problem with it.
  • mpo9mpo9 Joined: Posts: 8
    I mean in order for this to work they'll have to first and foremost appeal to the competitive community of smash. They already have the support of people due to Project Melee. Now hopefully they'll know to not just have the game be "Melee HD", because they're probably not be able to overtake the melee scene.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about their budget, I meant that they're trying directly to compete with Smash by attempting to make their game the League of Legends of Smash clones. Supposing that they're successful, they'll be directly competing with Smash with the LoL-style business model.

    And that probably means I'll want no part of it. I am not at all interested in League.

    Well we don't know what really this means. I think they mean how Leauge was the first DOTA clone to really take off, as most other clones are small. Wavedash is aiming to be the first *big* competitive platform fighter that isn't Smash.
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,698
    How did they raise the money with nothing to show?
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    I'm assuming they have a prototype...
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,329
    I'm pretty sure they had a 1 character build like a couple years ago. I'm assuming at this point they're probably up to 4-6 characters.
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  • mpo9mpo9 Joined: Posts: 8
    tataki wrote: »
    How did they raise the money with nothing to show?

    Project M has a lot of credit behind it to start with, and people have known for a long time now that another official "Melee" isn't going to happen, even if Sakurai is gone or not. Project M was meant for the competive community and it still has a big following, even when it stopped due to a threat of Nintendo and the sudden closure of shop due to fear.
  • appomoappomo uupps Joined: Posts: 4,107
    tataki wrote: »
    How did they raise the money with nothing to show?

    good question, beside of some fancy drawings i havent seen anything gameplay related or even how its might look like ingame.
    wouldnt surprise me when nothing worthy comes out of it.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited June 4
    @appomo They're going to show gameplay soon. If they raised 6 million they definitely have something.
  • appomoappomo uupps Joined: Posts: 4,107
    @appomo They're going to show gameplay soon. If they raised 6 million they definitely have something.

    usually it works the other way arround... :P
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,476 mod
    appomo wrote: »
    @appomo They're going to show gameplay soon. If they raised 6 million they definitely have something.

    usually it works the other way arround... :P

    If they raised 6 million, then it means that they likely have a prototype that they were able to shop around to investors.
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  • appomoappomo uupps Joined: Posts: 4,107
    d3v wrote: »
    appomo wrote: »
    @appomo They're going to show gameplay soon. If they raised 6 million they definitely have something.

    usually it works the other way arround... :P

    If they raised 6 million, then it means that they likely have a prototype that they were able to shop around to investors.

    maybe...at this point we can just guess.
    looking forward to see what came or will come out of it.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited July 17
    Hrm... Looks rough around the edges but the gameplay looks pretty solid.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=86&v=2HVdoDlsN-A
    Open Beta signup: https://icons.gg/
    The response is pretty savage so far lol. I hope the devs can take it in stride.
    Post edited by truendymion on
  • appomoappomo uupps Joined: Posts: 4,107
    edited July 17
    see. looks like trash.
    people wouldnt put in 6mil when they had shown this demo/build earlier.
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,128
    Models don't look that bad, but the animation is very very very rough and the stages are dull and lifeless. Looks like a bootleg Smash but I don't know Smash well enough to tell differences apart.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited July 17
    I was gonna give this a chance, but not anymore. This looks dreadful. All the characters are literally just modelswaps of existing Smash Bros. characters, reusing the exact same animations, with nothing new about their playstyles or designs.

    It's the damndest thing. Why do all these fucking people think they can just get away with blatantly stealing animations and designs? This is beyond stupid. First Skullgirls, then Fantasy Strike, and now this. What is wrong with these people's brains? What is the awful, entitled mentality that makes them think it's okay to do this?



    And I know it's a subject I keep coming back to, but that fucking title... Icons. It sucks so much.

    It's completely ironic, because there's nothing memorable or iconic about that name. Or the game itself, for that matter.
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  • LordxMugenLordxMugen FIGHTAN GAHMS!!! Joined: Posts: 549
    I just dont understand them making a melee clone seeing as the melee players only want to play a nintendo made melee and NOTHING ELSE. All of the other Smash players are playing Sm4sh or Rivals of Aether or nothing at all. You are literally making this game for a dead market. Like it would be one thing if it was like Aether where it took the Smash formula and did its own thing, but making model swaps of existing characters is kinda of silly and dumb. I just want to know this is for.
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    Looks like Rivals is still the undisputed king of Smash clones.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited July 17
    Yeah, the animations are pretty disappointing. There are limitless possibilities with body language and movement and they just end up copying smash almost verbatim. Animations should express a characters unique personality.
    I see the Falcon clone has some acrobatic flourishes, they should expand on that. The Goat boy looks like he should have more animalist movements, horn and hoof type attacks. The Marth clone should have a total overhaul, base her movements on Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon style sword fighting.

    @PsychoJosh Comparing the creative homages found in Skullgirls to the wholesale ripoffs of Fantasy Strike is a stretch.
  • .Guy..Guy. STUPID SEXY ROCKET RACCOON! Joined: Posts: 2,017
    edited July 17
    You guys expected something else? One look at the characters before reveal should've been a good enough hint imo. I don't agree with just copying shit either but I expected something like this.

    Rivals literally did the same thing this game is doing but in 2D. Zetterburn Forsburn Absa all have shit straight from the chars they're based on. I love Rivals, but don't kid yourself.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited July 17
    Nah Rivals definitely puts their own unique twist on things. Their take on 'Spacey', Zetterburn has a flame carpet and a 'fire amp' damage gimmick.
  • PurplePonyArcadePurplePonyArcade Pretentious Android Joined: Posts: 253
    .Guy. wrote: »
    You guys expected something else? One look at the characters before reveal should've been a good enough hint imo. I don't agree with just copying shit either but I expected something like this.

    Rivals literally did the same thing this game is doing but in 2D. Zetterburn Forsburn Absa all have shit straight from the chars they're based on. I love Rivals, but don't kid yourself.

    That's kind of how I feel. Good game and good looking. Just not largely different from Melee/PM in any way to me.
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  • PurplePonyArcadePurplePonyArcade Pretentious Android Joined: Posts: 253
    This game finally got a name. Looks alright. Not great but it works I guess. Looks like Paladins and just and almost as boring looking.
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  • PurplePonyArcadePurplePonyArcade Pretentious Android Joined: Posts: 253
    Yeah, the animations are pretty disappointing. There are limitless possibilities with body language and movement and they just end up copying smash almost verbatim. Animations should express a characters unique personality.
    I see the Falcon clone has some acrobatic flourishes, they should expand on that. The Goat boy looks like he should have more animalist movements, horn and hoof type attacks. The Marth clone should have a total overhaul, base her movements on Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon style sword fighting.

    @PsychoJosh Comparing the creative homages found in Skullgirls to the wholesale ripoffs of Fantasy Strike is a stretch.

    PsychoJosh has a reputation as forum arsehole.

    I am(sadly) no developer like you but damn you sure talk like one. Not everyone remembers that a character's moveset and animations do often reflect much about themselves and that is part of each character's appeal or lack of.
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  • Kalyx triaDKalyx triaD Serious Business Joined: Posts: 2,811
    I just wanna give my three cents on the 'copy-pasta moves' thing going on with these indy titles. I really wanted to post this on the Fantasy Strike thread but I rather not deal with the Church of Sirlin. As a writer, aspiring game dev (with some stuff on paper), and somebody generally versed with the creative process both technical and philosophical - I wanna explain the pitfalls of Author Appeal.

    Anybody remember Superman Returns? It's a well directed superhero film that, imo, should have been the launchpad for a DC Film Universe. Bryan Singer is a good director, he had good actors (still disagree with Kate Bosworth as Lois, should have been Parker Posey). But my biggest problem with the movie, one not discussed too often though I believe people 'felt' it; Bryan Singer was too close to the project. He was an admitting fanboy of the Richard Donner films and very openly expressed his desire to spiritually make a direct sequel to Superman 1 and 2. This adherence to the past included using John Williams score, rehashing 30yo gags, and using direct references to events literally only adults would understand. He made the movie not for general fans, but for himself and a very small sect of fans who believe the Donner films are end all superhero cinema.

    Just a few years ago JJ Abrams did a Star Wars film and again, we have a director who is an admitting fanboy of the original film. Now set aside what your feelings are on the Prequel trilogy, I'm sure your vision of Star Wars whatever it may be did not involve literally retelling the story of A New Hope down to very specific plot beats. He retained vehicle design from the original trilogy, even if the prequel trilogy establishes that given a 30yr time gap tech would indeed move forward. Imagine still seeing boxy designs for cars today. That would be technically and aesthetically absurd... unless the guy running car designs was some kind of fanboy of that era. This is why we still have Tie Fighters, X-Wings, and planetoid super weapons with embarrassingly obvious weak spots. Abrams isn't a Star Wars fan, he's A New Hope fan.

    So why this little cinema critique when talking about fighting games with blatant uses of either mechanics or presentation? Sirlin really like Street Fighter. He really likes fighting games. He has interesting ideas, but he's more 'engineer' than character designer if that makes since. His objective is to fashion a very specific combat system with a specific goal. To him a character literally having Metsu-Shoryu or Shinryuken, or SPD is besides the point. Aesthetically he will default to SF because he's a SF fanboy. This is why while some of us find it baffling these guys don't even see it has an issue. But let's say at least FS plays way different from SF anyway.

    Icons is very clearly based on a specific iteration of an already specific fighting franchise. Somebody already hit the nail on the head that Melee by itself is already something of a fringe community in the grand scheme of things, but let's say that's fine, right? Taking the concept of 'functions' into account, it was very possible that the Icons team could easily have fashioned characters with the functions of Melee characters, without actually needing them to execute maneuvers like those characters. Just as Abrams could have made a film in the spirit of A New Hope without biting the whole plot. And Singer could have made an original Superman film in the spirit of the Donner films without it needing to be an awkward sequel. The main argument here is you can have your inspirations, but you're not gonna convince people that animations down to the frame is actually a requirement to meet the function or spirit of a character.

    The sad part is what's going to happen is people will compare you to those hilarious Chinese knock-offs. Or worse, 'lil brother' games like Paladins is to Overwatch. You can hype up the card system all you want; Paladins wants to be Overwatch, Overwatch doesn't need to be Paladins. Optics are still an important part of all this, and breaching past homage to copy-pasta will have you looking like a knock-off or a lil brother. And that's not even mentioning the strange demographic of 'people who wanna play X but for some reason will play Y instead of X because Y is inspired by X'. lol Call me exclusionary but only so much time for games and if I see a game trying very hard to be a game I already own I personally don't see a reason to switch over. These are the road bumps you get when you adhere too close to what your main inspiration is.
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited July 17
    @PsychoJosh Comparing the creative homages found in Skullgirls to the wholesale ripoffs of Fantasy Strike is a stretch.

    Claiming that you're doing "homages" is how it starts. The line starts to blur when your game contains substantially more "homages" than it has original content. This mentality is what leads to wholesale ripoffs.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    edited July 17
    @PSYCH0J0SH Your intense and unrelenting hate for Skullgirls is delicious.

    Anyways, I signed up for the beta. Curious to see how the gameplay feels.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,836
    I just wanna give my three cents on the 'copy-pasta moves' thing going on with these indy titles. I really wanted to post this on the Fantasy Strike thread but I rather not deal with the Church of Sirlin. As a writer, aspiring game dev (with some stuff on paper), and somebody generally versed with the creative process both technical and philosophical - I wanna explain the pitfalls of Author Appeal.

    Anybody remember Superman Returns? It's a well directed superhero film that, imo, should have been the launchpad for a DC Film Universe. Bryan Singer is a good director, he had good actors (still disagree with Kate Bosworth as Lois, should have been Parker Posey). But my biggest problem with the movie, one not discussed too often though I believe people 'felt' it; Bryan Singer was too close to the project. He was an admitting fanboy of the Richard Donner films and very openly expressed his desire to spiritually make a direct sequel to Superman 1 and 2. This adherence to the past included using John Williams score, rehashing 30yo gags, and using direct references to events literally only adults would understand. He made the movie not for general fans, but for himself and a very small sect of fans who believe the Donner films are end all superhero cinema.

    Just a few years ago JJ Abrams did a Star Wars film and again, we have a director who is an admitting fanboy of the original film. Now set aside what your feelings are on the Prequel trilogy, I'm sure your vision of Star Wars whatever it may be did not involve literally retelling the story of A New Hope down to very specific plot beats. He retained vehicle design from the original trilogy, even if the prequel trilogy establishes that given a 30yr time gap tech would indeed move forward. Imagine still seeing boxy designs for cars today. That would be technically and aesthetically absurd... unless the guy running car designs was some kind of fanboy of that era. This is why we still have Tie Fighters, X-Wings, and planetoid super weapons with embarrassingly obvious weak spots. Abrams isn't a Star Wars fan, he's A New Hope fan.

    So why this little cinema critique when talking about fighting games with blatant uses of either mechanics or presentation? Sirlin really like Street Fighter. He really likes fighting games. He has interesting ideas, but he's more 'engineer' than character designer if that makes since. His objective is to fashion a very specific combat system with a specific goal. To him a character literally having Metsu-Shoryu or Shinryuken, or SPD is besides the point. Aesthetically he will default to SF because he's a SF fanboy. This is why while some of us find it baffling these guys don't even see it has an issue. But let's say at least FS plays way different from SF anyway.

    Icons is very clearly based on a specific iteration of an already specific fighting franchise. Somebody already hit the nail on the head that Melee by itself is already something of a fringe community in the grand scheme of things, but let's say that's fine, right? Taking the concept of 'functions' into account, it was very possible that the Icons team could easily have fashioned characters with the functions of Melee characters, without actually needing them to execute maneuvers like those characters. Just as Abrams could have made a film in the spirit of A New Hope without biting the whole plot. And Singer could have made an original Superman film in the spirit of the Donner films without it needing to be an awkward sequel. The main argument here is you can have your inspirations, but you're not gonna convince people that animations down to the frame is actually a requirement to meet the function or spirit of a character.

    The sad part is what's going to happen is people will compare you to those hilarious Chinese knock-offs. Or worse, 'lil brother' games like Paladins is to Overwatch. You can hype up the card system all you want; Paladins wants to be Overwatch, Overwatch doesn't need to be Paladins. Optics are still an important part of all this, and breaching past homage to copy-pasta will have you looking like a knock-off or a lil brother. And that's not even mentioning the strange demographic of 'people who wanna play X but for some reason will play Y instead of X because Y is inspired by X'. lol Call me exclusionary but only so much time for games and if I see a game trying very hard to be a game I already own I personally don't see a reason to switch over. These are the road bumps you get when you adhere too close to what your main inspiration is.

    To add onto this, the game didn't at all sell why people should play it. Why go to a new IP when Smash is right there? There was nothing in the pitch over than "it's smash without the characters you like."
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,210
    What I'm gathering from the AMA with the devs is that they did actually create some unique animations/gameplay but for some reason they thought it would be a good idea to only show the recycled stuff in the trailer. Very odd choice. According to devs Ashani is more than a Falcon clone:
    Let's look at some of Ashani's specials:

    Side Special - Ashani steps forward and throws a hook with an electric hitbox in front of it. If done twice in quick succession, she will take a second, longer step and throw the opposite hook.

    Down Special Ground - Ashani punches the ground and sends electric arcs a short distance along the ground on both side of her.

    Down Special Air - Ashani throws a punch beneath her that projects a small electric cone beneath her.

    These moves are designed to give Ashani interesting options in neutral, on defense, or during a tech read. This significantly differentiates her gameplay from Falcon, even if she has some similar animations in other places. That's even expressed in her EMPunch and how it differs from Falcon Punch. Ashani has a charge mechanic that builds meter as she does damage. Once its full, her EMPunch comes out twice as fast, allowing good players to set up really exciting KO opportunities that aren't possible with Falcon.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6nvjg8/icons_combat_arena_ama_with_the_wavedash_team/dkcqba6/
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    What I'm gathering from the AMA with the devs is that they did actually create some unique animations/gameplay but for some reason they thought it would be a good idea to only show the recycled stuff in the trailer. Very odd choice.

    That was a very poor decision indeed. Especially since they already have an audience of people on the fence about this.
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  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,329
    Can't wait for this generic ass League of Legends/Overwatch/Every Chinese MMO ever art style to die. Shit looks terrible and makes your characters look even less interesting than they already do. Doesn't help that everything they've shown looks unoriginal on top of the uninteresting reskin.
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