Is Discord hurting the FGC?

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  • Sanada-kunSanada-kun Joined: Posts: 716
    edited June 13
    grandabx wrote: »

    It's fine to use Discord for quick questions, but the general info on a character/system mechanics should be archived. No one is going to want to keep answering the same question over and over. For instance: http://ki.infil.net/

    This makes things so much easier and people will have less of a reason to ask basic questions if all general info is put in an organized place. That site exist, but they may still use Discord for personal communication. Most of the other fighters on the market has their info scattered around on 6-7 sites/programs. A new player is not going to jump through hoops just to learn general info.

    U guys wanna b straight spoon fed don't u lol. U can do all this in discord if u know how to set up ur servers the right way. Whoever made the discord servers u join r just too stupid to know how to do it

    Even if they dont most fighting games have decent enough tutorials that u should b able to learn most of the basics of a game by just playing, if ur looking for combos then YouTube is ur friend then after that its just specific things. Getting into the FGC is never gonna b easy cause fighting games in general are not easy. The fact is yeah ur most likely gonna have to go to a few different places to find what u need it's been this way even before discord came around, but like I said if u know how to make a server properly on discord u don't need to do any of this
    Post edited by Sanada-kun on
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    the irony here is people talking about not finding stuff on wiki and it being scattered in discord etc.
    but have you done anything to change that in a meaningful way?

    for the overwhelming majority I think it's a safe bet the answer is 'no'.

    did you imagine that information was just spontaneously generated?

    let's cut the shit about Japan please. you can easily go and read a Japanese wiki's frame data.
    you don't think they also casually share tons of information locally?
    they're not better than you because of wiki. they're better than you because they play. a lot.

    and if you want more than frame data well tough shit. maybe be nice to that person in the community who can translate Japanese and support them in a project to bring some topics into another language.
    Play more.
  • manbehindthewiresmanbehindthewires Consider yourself lightly, consider the world deeply Joined: Posts: 947
    You're going to collapse at the first sentence of this article, but this thread eminded me of it:

    www.eurogamer.net/amp/2017-04-04-meet-the-street-fighter-5-coaches

    I think a lot of new gen players turned to Discord to have a space to ask "dumb" questions in - it's more fleeting in a space like that, it's not going to invoke an arguest that lives on the Internet forever, it's not going to be seen by a veteran that's going to swat it out of the sky. It's another consequence of having a reputation for being clique-ish and feral.I think there's an once of people just wanting to be told the things they want to hear, rather than some of the harder truths about fighting games (I have to practice!?) In there too, but by and large they're going there because it's easier or less scary than diving into the fgc with both feet.

    I disagree with a lot of the things in that article, regarding how the established fgc can and can't pass on its legacy, but you can't duck the fact that people are feeling that way and accepting the stereptypes so readily.

    Don't know the answer, but fighting the idea that it's hostile and finding a way to be a good source for newbies is in there somewhere.
    SFV: Chun Li [CFN: thewires / manbehindthewires]
    Third Strike: Alex/Ibuki [Fightcade: MBTW]
    Here to learn.
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,498
    edited June 12
    There is a lot of useful stuff outside of frame data on japanese wikis.

    Also I helped with the SF4 srk wiki project, the usf4 bug testing thread, and the unlisted changes thread to help add context to the wiki.

    The dustloop and mizuumi wikis are great resources that have a lot more than just frame data, and those players seem to be more informed about nuances.

    People should be interested in expanding them and making wikis have more information, and I've helped a bit personally.

    Arcade culture obviously builds information in a way that is hard to replicate in any other way, but the solution isn't to not try. I'm not saying it's why JP players tend to be stronger, but it definitely can't hurt.
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    edited June 12
    I think some good players aren't that concerned about the permanence of information because very few people ever really put it into use. like is someone gonna write all their thoughts on a matchup down when...

    lots of people won't read it
    lots of people will read it but not understand it/never reach the level where it's useful to them
    the people who it would be useful for are already your friends and you can just message them privately about it
  • TKRTKR Inventor of Toe Socks Joined: Posts: 212
    I use Discord when I am in an online tournament. The mods will have a channel about the tournament and all tech talk and contact shit goes on in there. I don't use it for anything else.

    There are reason like its chaotic and you have to sift through all the crap to find something you might be after. Asking for help is the same as asking on a forum, yes its quicker, but it just speeds up the shitty responses you get from the trolls.

    But the one reason I personally don't use Discord. It takes people away from the forums and sites. Which means it takes add views away from forums. Which ultimately takes income away from the people we rely on it for top level events and the like. If people stop making money the whole FGC will collapse. It wouldn't have grown as big and fast as it did with the Oh Nine'rs if people weren't making money off of it.

    Passion isn't what keeps people in this community doing things for the community. Passion is just the reason they enter the community.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,709
    Veserius wrote: »
    There is a lot of useful stuff outside of frame data on japanese wikis.

    Also I helped with the SF4 srk wiki project, the usf4 bug testing thread, and the unlisted changes thread to help add context to the wiki.

    The dustloop and mizuumi wikis are great resources that have a lot more than just frame data, and those players seem to be more informed about nuances.

    People should be interested in expanding them and making wikis have more information, and I've helped a bit personally.

    Arcade culture obviously builds information in a way that is hard to replicate in any other way, but the solution isn't to not try. I'm not saying it's why JP players tend to be stronger, but it definitely can't hurt.

    if you're referring to what i said, i covered all that and i think you really misunderstood me.
    wikis are great. people who complain that there isn't a wiki for what they personally want, or they can't find some specific information on available wikis are scum.

    all of it relies on people deliberately sharing information.

    i am criticizing people who seem to think they deserve this information without doing any work themselves.

    to follow what bob said, there's a huge disconnect.
    it's most often a complete waste of time.
    so people share openly with those they know want to receive the information. everyone outside that is unknown and it's not worth the extra effort 9/10 times.

    several people now over the years have said they were going to do some kind of wiki project for 3S. either clean one up or do a new things, etc. whatever.
    i've always responded that i could help and give them all my collected data.
    none of them have ever followed through.

    this includes myself. i realized there was no point because the people who play, play already and i could just tell them stuff. the people who don't, don't.
    and if a messy wiki is an obstacle to them just playing the game, then they were never very interested in it to begin with.
    Play more.
  • PreppyPreppy act like you're used to it Joined: Posts: 14,295 admin
    edited June 12
    I think so. Facebook and reddit and Discord are less useful imho than forum software. They each definitely have their own advantages, but I think each move has resulted in lower quality of community as we fracture slightly across platforms. But the IRC generally has remained popping for over a decade now, so ... it seems like there's a community for most everything.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I dunno if they still own it but Cannons def don't run this site anymore. It's been like that for yeeeeeeeeeeeears.
    They still own it. I believe they still value the community-building that SRK forums help with.
    I see discord more of replacement of mIRC than anything else, I logged in the srk discord a few days ago for the first I didn't find anything worth reading and a few times i couldn't tell wtf people were talking about. it's too chaotic

    i believe many people including top players ran away from the hostile environment that was rampant around this site years ago. I could be wrong on this maybe it was something else.

    I can't remember the last time I saw a post of Mr Wizard
    I believe he's on pretty often, but just is doing his own thing. In theory there's no reason for posts by mods (or admins) as mods or admins most of the time - most of the time we should just be part of the crowd enjoying some great and/or flawed and/or excellent games.

    http://zachd.com/mvc2 : My giant archive of fighting game videos, centered around MvC2.
    "If you don't feel like killing yourself every time you lose you will never be good. Apologyman is going to be a monster someday as long as he keeps staying miserable." --Brightside6382
    "I'm sure you're very wicked people - but how dull it would be if everyone was good."

  • Sanada-kunSanada-kun Joined: Posts: 716
    Shari wrote: »
    This is easily solved with character discords and better stickies.

    It's no different from a really long thread here with a bad first post that's not maintained.

    Go to the GG discord.
    I want to learn Bedman.

    Resources channel has links to every main character discord, FAQS, Framedata and links for obvious things for all characters.

    The character discords that are well maintained have a good sticky/faq channel that teaches you the basics of the character with links to further information.
    Then they breakdown into sections like Matchups, Critique, Neutral, Oki, Generic Tech, General Media and so on and on.
    Along with the feature of pinning things to each subchannel saving really important posts from getting lost.

    I'm really not seeing the problem here. The only barrier to permanence on discord is people being too lazy to archive or sort through and maintain the channels.
    Just like it would be on any other medium like the old subforums here where there is tons of informations compiled over the years but tons of reading and searching to do to find it.

    Is the problem isolated to SF5 discords?
    Because i really haven't come across this issue in any game i've played so far.

    If anything Discord with the ease of instant communication to a large group has improved the availability of information and made it more accessible.


    Thank you. Someone gets its
  • KaoriManabeKaoriManabe norcal Joined: Posts: 1,044
    I use IRC to talk about fighting games

    I fail to see why any specific platform should take blame for people's insincerity
    swag bitch take a picture real hood nigga swagged up to the maximum 10 on my dick with that bitch on my dick
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,868
    Shari wrote: »
    This is easily solved with character discords and better stickies.

    It's no different from a really long thread here with a bad first post that's not maintained.

    Go to the GG discord.
    I want to learn Bedman.

    Resources channel has links to every main character discord, FAQS, Framedata and links for obvious things for all characters.

    The character discords that are well maintained have a good sticky/faq channel that teaches you the basics of the character with links to further information.
    Then they breakdown into sections like Matchups, Critique, Neutral, Oki, Generic Tech, General Media and so on and on.
    Along with the feature of pinning things to each subchannel saving really important posts from getting lost.

    I'm really not seeing the problem here. The only barrier to permanence on discord is people being too lazy to archive or sort through and maintain the channels.
    Just like it would be on any other medium like the old subforums here where there is tons of informations compiled over the years but tons of reading and searching to do to find it.

    Is the problem isolated to SF5 discords?
    Because i really haven't come across this issue in any game i've played so far.

    If anything Discord with the ease of instant communication to a large group has improved the availability of information and made it more accessible.


    So very agreed. The Raven discord has really helped me level up my game and has served as an easy way to assist newbies.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,148
    Guess I'm dating myself... What's discord. No, I'm not Googling shit...
  • grandabxgrandabx Flameater Joined: Posts: 675 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Tebbo wrote: »
    the irony here is people talking about not finding stuff on wiki and it being scattered in discord etc.
    but have you done anything to change that in a meaningful way?

    for the overwhelming majority I think it's a safe bet the answer is 'no'.

    did you imagine that information was just spontaneously generated?

    let's cut the shit about Japan please. you can easily go and read a Japanese wiki's frame data.
    you don't think they also casually share tons of information locally?
    they're not better than you because of wiki. they're better than you because they play. a lot.

    and if you want more than frame data well tough shit. maybe be nice to that person in the community who can translate Japanese and support them in a project to bring some topics into another language.

    I created the entire Susanoo section for BBCF on Dustloop LAST year.
    I remember when people thought Bison doing the psycho crusher back and forth across the screen in SF:CE was cheap.
    GGXX: As long as I apply myself, I can win with anyone.
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,622
    I only figured out today what the pin means ... lol
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  • manbehindthewiresmanbehindthewires Consider yourself lightly, consider the world deeply Joined: Posts: 947
    Been using Discord this weekend outside of simply checking in to online tournaments and I kinda get it.
    Having immediate feedback to your questions is a pretty big sell, compared with the response times on a forum - again the permanence of an answer on a forum means you typically are only answering something if you're 100% sure. You can answer with absolute garbage on discord and it's forgotten after a day, so the quality (and the moderation) I'd say is lower, but the response time sometimes makes up for it. Especially when trying to diagnose a graphics or a lag issue and you can't afford to wait. It's also been good for running 1on sets on SFV (as has PSN), due to the ability to give immediate feedback to the person you're practicing with. Literally between rounds you and the opponent can improve if youve got it on your phone next to you.
    Plus youve already got a discord account for other things, most likely, so the sign-up barrier has gone for many.

    You see a lot of dine-and-dash members on here, particularly in the saikyo dojo and I imagine Discord is better for those people.
    SFV: Chun Li [CFN: thewires / manbehindthewires]
    Third Strike: Alex/Ibuki [Fightcade: MBTW]
    Here to learn.
  • ShadowfuryShadowfury Joined: Posts: 27
    edited June 26
    A well done Discord channel is a good source of info. If you carefully manage the channels and permissions, you'll get the instant response along with some archiving. One channel I'm in, it's for a pen and paper game translated from Japanese, so we need the info handy, has a couple of read-only pages with links to all the relevant info and downloads. I'm in a World of Warships clan, there's a general channel, a news channel, and a channel that only higher-ups can post in where they post links to guides and stuff (there's also a NSFW channel). It works great, whenever someone finds a great guide or tidbit, it gets put in the info/tips channel. Aside from that, it's useful to get quick feedback from other people. When you don't have an especially active community forum (or the official one is terrible), getting that sort of discussion going is great.

    However, I don't particularly like the fleeting nature of it compared to forum posts. The interface doesn't make it easy to share huge, organized amounts of information, for instance, having a channel for each character and/or different aspects would make your group incredibly hard to find the information you want. It's way easier to just go to a wiki or search forums. I think Discord is better served as a communication tool than a place to hold information. And because in fighting games we don't necessarily have to get like 3-7 people together to play, you don't need it to communicate with each other as far as planning sessions or seeing if anyone is around.

    With all these different places to discuss, there's bound to be a lack of overlap, and the community is large enough nowadays that it will, as someone else said, section itself off into different groups. That's probably going to be okay, as I think the FGC came together from many, many different groups, seeing as how things started off before everyone had the internet and the only way you met other fighting game players was at the arcade. We get together for our big tournaments, and then we head back to our home groups. Just that these groups aren't necessarily geographical anymore.

    Almost all of my Discord use is for the voice chat, though. It's about as good as Ventrilo was and way better than using Skype.
  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,734 mod
    I don't understand how an app that brings more people together hurts the community, if anything it solidifies groups of people. I talk casually to people more via Discord and use SRK for resources and the Lounge. Character specific servers are 10x better for Q&A but terrible for gathering tech.
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  • grandabxgrandabx Flameater Joined: Posts: 675 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited June 27
    Froztey wrote: »
    I don't understand how an app that brings more people together hurts the community, if anything it solidifies groups of people. I talk casually to people more via Discord and use SRK for resources and the Lounge. Character specific servers are 10x better for Q&A but terrible for gathering tech.

    Once again, it has separated the info and the people sharing the info. There are many new players who would like to have a foundation/hub where they can read and not have to go travelling around the web to find simple things: https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/204459-guilty-gear-xrd-rev-2/75501817
    I remember when people thought Bison doing the psycho crusher back and forth across the screen in SF:CE was cheap.
    GGXX: As long as I apply myself, I can win with anyone.
  • StockyJamStockyJam My nigga Networkingyuppy Joined: Posts: 5,750
    it just hurts forumss like dustloop neogaf and srk. especially gd board.
  • aztec soldieraztec soldier Westside! = turds Joined: Posts: 30
    edited June 28
    discord is not hurting fighting games. The games being made is what is hurting the genre. Nothing new, more rehashes of the same fighters we had over the past decades are getting the spotlight. Somehow the fgc think casuals are not aware of that.

    i farted
  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,984
    discord is not hurting fighting games. The games being made is what is hurting the genre. Nothing new, more rehashes of the same fighters we had over the past decades are getting the spotlight. Somehow the fgc think casuals are not aware of that.

    I call bull on this.

    On the matter of rehash, i think their other genres who are worst offenders (fps, sports, rpg)

    But also a counterpoint.
    "If it aint broke, don't fix."
    Seikuken Disciple
    "That Phantom Breaker Guy"
  • aztec soldieraztec soldier Westside! = turds Joined: Posts: 30
    edited June 30
    keo-bas wrote: »
    discord is not hurting fighting games. The games being made is what is hurting the genre. Nothing new, more rehashes of the same fighters we had over the past decades are getting the spotlight. Somehow the fgc think casuals are not aware of that.

    I call bull on this.

    On the matter of rehash, i think their other genres who are worst offenders (fps, sports, rpg)

    But also a counterpoint.
    "If it aint broke, don't fix."

    Sure, tell that to the common casual. Fighting games are not on the levels of fps, sports, etc... As far as popularity.

    Anyways, I forgot to add, the majority dont play multiple games, like back in the day, people only play Capcom or NR or Namco or Anime or Smash.


    i farted
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,894
    Casuals don't help fighters so that's not much of a point.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • SaitsuSaitsu When a Kid, Becomes a Legend Joined: Posts: 35,116
    Indeed. Casuals wouldn't bother to go on message boards, or to go on the Discords to begin with.
    PSN: Saitsuofleaves SF5 Tag: Saitsu  Baby Steps to Giant Strides
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