Project Magenta 2017

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  • butterojbutteroj You Are Luminous Joined: Posts: 1,595
    Tensho wrote: »
    What's the wear and tear going to be on these? It can fit standard JLF/LS-32 etc springs, what type of actuators does it use? I read that it doesn't use standard optical sensors but something else, it's good for many years of use I'm guessing?
    Also it comes standard with a square gate?
    Jlf springs
    Custom actuator/shaft
    It uses hall effect sensors/magnets:
    "A Hall effect sensor is a transducer that varies its output voltage in response to a magnetic field. Hall effect sensors are used for proximity switching, positioning, speed detection, and current sensing applications."

     

  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,883
    Interesting, I'm guessing hall effect sensors last as long as optical sensors but can't find anything on it's rated life with my short search
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Quickly becoming the Sailor Moon S guy. Joined: Posts: 13,874
    Tensho wrote: »
    What's the wear and tear going to be on these? It can fit standard JLF/LS-32 etc springs, what type of actuators does it use? I read that it doesn't use standard optical sensors but something else, it's good for many years of use I'm guessing?
    Also it comes standard with a square gate?

    It's a modified JLF with a modified shaft. If you use it with the switches attached so you can hear the clicks, it'll likely take a standard JLF actuator. It's not IR sensors, but hall effect, which is basically magnets registering its location. The wear and tear will be minimum, and likely will last longer than your standard switch, so long as you remember to use some grease over the years for the shaft pivot and keep an eye on your spring.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV/FORpowerfulGame | CFN: MissingPerson/YddeDdeDe GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,279
    Tensho wrote: »
    What's the wear and tear going to be on these? It can fit standard JLF/LS-32 etc springs, what type of actuators does it use? I read that it doesn't use standard optical sensors but something else, it's good for many years of use I'm guessing?
    Also it comes standard with a square gate?

    Hal effect senors.
    It works off magnetism (think magnetic actuator) and sensors on the PCB to read the magnetic fields.

    The Sega made Dreamcast Controllers uses the same concept.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • sunny84sunny84 Joined: Posts: 18
    Will the assembly of the body/shaft be lower than an actual jlf if you decide to go without microswitches? Just wondering if this will be useful for modding smaller sticks. Either way I'll be getting mine..this thing sounds awesome.
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Quickly becoming the Sailor Moon S guy. Joined: Posts: 13,874
    IIRC it's deeper than a JLF--I doubt this will fit in a Namco.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV/FORpowerfulGame | CFN: MissingPerson/YddeDdeDe GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,883
    You can go with or without micro switches? with micro switches is it just for the click feel or do they actually work along with the hal sensor?
  • butterojbutteroj You Are Luminous Joined: Posts: 1,595
    Tensho wrote: »
    You can go with or without micro switches? with micro switches is it just for the click feel or do they actually work along with the hal sensor?

    With tpma is only for the clicky sensation.

    @sunny84 it is deeper than a standard jlf by ~1/8"

     

  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,883
    Sounds interesting, going to be neat when people start posting their settings of sticks already on the market for people that want to have all their old sticks in one.
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 316
    edited November 30
    Something's weird. Bryan clearly said some time ago on this same thread the design was inductive
    Our stick is not optical, it is inductive. The advantage of the design is that we will have the ability to customize the sensitivity and action to whatever you can think of.
    , plus the various iterations of the PCB seemed to show an inductive loop in the middle, unless the circles were/are decorative prints destined to evoke visually the actuation range and finetuning to the customer.

    He did also say later that the final board underwent a redesign phase. To what extent only he and the co designers know, the website says the actual sensing design is hall based, but I'm weary of said descriptions on the shop site as it's not always Bryan who writes them afaik.
  • butterojbutteroj You Are Luminous Joined: Posts: 1,595
    Agieze wrote: »
    Something's weird. Bryan clearly said some time ago on this same thread the design was inductive
    Our stick is not optical, it is inductive. The advantage of the design is that we will have the ability to customize the sensitivity and action to whatever you can think of.
    , plus the various iterations of the PCB seemed to show an inductive loop in the middle, unless the circles were/are decorative prints destined to evoke visually the actuation range and finetuning to the customer.

    He did also say later that the final board underwent a redesign phase. To what extent only he and the co designers know, the website says the actual sensing design is hall based, but I'm weary of said descriptions on the shop site as it's not always Bryan who writes them afaik.
    I have the stick and have had it for months now, its hall effect.

     

  • rbuniaorbuniao Joined: Posts: 184
    I might end up getting this but I want to know where I can get a 5v source on my UFB since I have one installed on my VLX
  • sasquachsasquach Joined: Posts: 371
    edited November 30
    rbuniao wrote: »
    I might end up getting this but I want to know where I can get a 5v source on my UFB since I have one installed on my VLX

    The easiest one is the VCC screw terminal, you can also piggy bank off of the USB V through hole pin as well and the other VCC pins as well.
    "I'm just nice" -Harry Potter
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 316
    butteroj wrote: »
    Agieze wrote: »
    Something's weird. Bryan clearly said some time ago on this same thread the design was inductive
    Our stick is not optical, it is inductive. The advantage of the design is that we will have the ability to customize the sensitivity and action to whatever you can think of.
    , plus the various iterations of the PCB seemed to show an inductive loop in the middle, unless the circles were/are decorative prints destined to evoke visually the actuation range and finetuning to the customer.

    He did also say later that the final board underwent a redesign phase. To what extent only he and the co designers know, the website says the actual sensing design is hall based, but I'm weary of said descriptions on the shop site as it's not always Bryan who writes them afaik.
    I have the stick and have had it for months now, its hall effect.

    The quote I took was from 4+ years ago, it would be interesting to have Bryan's insight on switching from inductive protos to hall effect for final release. Both have their pros and cons anyways.
    If I'm not mistaken, he did obtain a nos Suzo inductive at the time , perhaps then it motivated him to go inductive for his own project. I was just curious to know what made him change his mind.
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,883
    Agieze wrote: »
    butteroj wrote: »
    Agieze wrote: »
    Something's weird. Bryan clearly said some time ago on this same thread the design was inductive
    Our stick is not optical, it is inductive. The advantage of the design is that we will have the ability to customize the sensitivity and action to whatever you can think of.
    , plus the various iterations of the PCB seemed to show an inductive loop in the middle, unless the circles were/are decorative prints destined to evoke visually the actuation range and finetuning to the customer.

    He did also say later that the final board underwent a redesign phase. To what extent only he and the co designers know, the website says the actual sensing design is hall based, but I'm weary of said descriptions on the shop site as it's not always Bryan who writes them afaik.
    I have the stick and have had it for months now, its hall effect.

    The quote I took was from 4+ years ago, it would be interesting to have Bryan's insight on switching from inductive protos to hall effect for final release. Both have their pros and cons anyways.
    If I'm not mistaken, he did obtain a nos Suzo inductive at the time , perhaps then it motivated him to go inductive for his own project. I was just curious to know what made him change his mind.
    What would the cons be of an inductive stick and hall effect stick?
  • sunny84sunny84 Joined: Posts: 18
    butteroj wrote: »
    Tensho wrote: »
    You can go with or without micro switches? with micro switches is it just for the click feel or do they actually work along with the hal sensor?

    With tpma is only for the clicky sensation.

    @sunny84 it is deeper than a standard jlf by ~1/8"

    ahhk good to know thanks.
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 316
    edited December 1
    @Tensho
    I'll give you a brief overview via PM.
    Both technologies are used in high grade industrial joystick designs and even other contactless techs are emerging .
    Depends on a lot of factors, generally for leisure applications the major consideration is cost, compatibility with existing accessories/standards and ease of use.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,279
    edited December 1
    Agieze wrote: »
    butteroj wrote: »
    Agieze wrote: »
    Something's weird. Bryan clearly said some time ago on this same thread the design was inductive
    Our stick is not optical, it is inductive. The advantage of the design is that we will have the ability to customize the sensitivity and action to whatever you can think of.
    , plus the various iterations of the PCB seemed to show an inductive loop in the middle, unless the circles were/are decorative prints destined to evoke visually the actuation range and finetuning to the customer.

    He did also say later that the final board underwent a redesign phase. To what extent only he and the co designers know, the website says the actual sensing design is hall based, but I'm weary of said descriptions on the shop site as it's not always Bryan who writes them afaik.
    I have the stick and have had it for months now, its hall effect.

    The quote I took was from 4+ years ago, it would be interesting to have Bryan's insight on switching from inductive protos to hall effect for final release. Both have their pros and cons anyways.
    If I'm not mistaken, he did obtain a nos Suzo inductive at the time , perhaps then it motivated him to go inductive for his own project. I was just curious to know what made him change his mind.

    Inductive vs Hall effect

    Very similar principals involved, both are dealing with and detecting magnetic fields

    But here is the difference
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/inductive-hall-effect-rpm-sensors-explained-kiril-mucevski/
    Unlike inductive sensors, the output signal from a Hall effect sensor is not effected by the rate of change of the magnetic field. ... Figure 2 shows a typical build of a Hall Effect sensor. The final output voltage signal usually is in digital waveform pulses (square form)
    AAEAAQAAAAAAAAKwAAAAJDViOGUwYmM0LTg4OTgtNDYyNy05ODA1LTI3ZWJjODIwMDJjNg.jpg

    Inductive sensors produce (some) voltage and outputs an analog AC (alternating current) waveform signal
    Hall effect sensors require voltage to be supplied and typically outputs a Square wave (Digital).

    Obviously Project Magenta is inspired by Inductive Joysticks of the past like the Suzo Inductive.
    Changing from induction to Hall Effect was just a natural part the development cycle. The Joystick still uses magnetic fields to detect input the way an optical joystick uses some waveform of light.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 316
    edited December 2
    @Darksakul

    I know pretty well the difference thank you ;)

    Everyone seems to speak on Bryan's behalf, with very vague or basic information...
    It would be nice to have some insight on the development stage directly from the source, if he's willing of course.

    By the way, you are mistaken about hall sensors, they do not ouput digital per se as you claim (you claim hall= digital and inductive = analog....) .
    The sheet you posted is about RPM hall sensors, which is an application that diverges strongly from sensing the actuator end piece fastened to a joystick shaft in a modded sanwa JLF.
    Hall sensors are analog due to their nature, some special chips have a hall sensor+AD converter integrated for the sake of miniaturization and only these special "all in one" hall effect chips will output a digital signal. some hall chips integrate even other functions than just converting to digital .
    If there's no miniature converter within the chip, it's the circuit built -around- the hall sensor(s) that will convert (if there is the need) the hall effect analog signal to digital.

    You should have read the official announcement concerning the magenta "an analog to digital" device.
    Post edited by Agieze on
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,883
    @armi0024 Do you plan to release more info and hopefully a video showing the design of the stick, shaft and base measurements and what accessories work with it(JLF shaft covers etc) close or at its release? I don't see much about the product except for what's on the PAS site, tiny photos, a 3 year old video and someones written review on a prototype unit.
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Quickly becoming the Sailor Moon S guy. Joined: Posts: 13,874
    Tensho wrote: »
    @armi0024 Do you plan to release more info and hopefully a video showing the design of the stick, shaft and base measurements and what accessories work with it(JLF shaft covers etc) close or at its release? I don't see much about the product except for what's on the PAS site, tiny photos, a 3 year old video and someones written review on a prototype unit.

    JLF shaft covers work. Link right now doesn't, but I heard buzz that Phreak may be making one that fits the Magenta?
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV/FORpowerfulGame | CFN: MissingPerson/YddeDdeDe GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • ykdykd Joined: Posts: 83
    Dubon wrote: »
    Hmm want to pre order but theres an issue with paypal, apperantly i need to specify a state, but theres no such field in the pas adress form. Furthermore im in Belgium, we dont have states!
    Is that adress line 2? I could put my province there...

    There's issues with Paypal outside of the US for some reason lately. Had the same thing ordering from Canada at a shop in the US earlier, kept saying I had an invalid address and the form DID have a place for my province.

    If you CAN, you may just need to pay via credit card.

    Same here, ordering from Canada on PAS I always get an error on PayPal. Always figured it was something on my end.. anyways, ordered one very excited to have this chance.
  • KnyghtFallKnyghtFall Kenji for MvCi Joined: Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Is their a video explaining the software?
    A review? Butteroj, your thoughts and experiences? This is PAS so quality isn’t a concern. I would however like to know a lot more about it.

    The Evo vid with the background music drowning everything is difficult to understand.
    VS game player for life. Copier of DNA. Fond of using anchors to smash stupid robots with Xs in their names.
  • butterojbutteroj You Are Luminous Joined: Posts: 1,595
    KnyghtFall wrote: »
    Is their a video explaining the software?
    A review? Butteroj, your thoughts and experiences? This is PAS so quality isn’t a concern. I would however like to know a lot more about it.

    The Evo vid with the background music drowning everything is difficult to understand.

    I'll be making a video soon and will write up my take tonight when I have free time but it is without a doubt the best stick Ive used in 25 years. Damn I feel old.

     

  • DubonDubon Joined: Posts: 503
    0rdered!
  • N7KhanN7Khan Joined: Posts: 13
    My question regarding the lever is did they replace the board on the TE2+ they used to demo the unit at Evo or was it stock? I'm slightly worried I may need to replace my board to install the thing if it doesn't have a 5V output.

    Secondly is the position of the micro-switches if a user leaves them inside to simulate clicking. Wouldn't that interfere if said user also increases the throw range, since I'm assuming you cannot change their position.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,279
    N7Khan wrote: »
    My question regarding the lever is did they replace the board on the TE2+ they used to demo the unit at Evo or was it stock? I'm slightly worried I may need to replace my board to install the thing if it doesn't have a 5V output.

    Secondly is the position of the micro-switches if a user leaves them inside to simulate clicking. Wouldn't that interfere if said user also increases the throw range, since I'm assuming you cannot change their position.

    You can get the +5 volts off the USB cable.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
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