MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    edited August 10
    willseless wrote: »
    What character do you guys think will replace Magneto as the character that is as good as the player? The honest top tier? Ultron or Carol?
    Carol. Olaf is already calling her "Stormneto". Though she might veer into MvC2 Magneto/Storm territory with all the tools she has (auto-fly, command throw, armor install, etc.)
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 870
    edited August 10
    This is just my theory, but I think damage scales the more times you use a single move in a combo. For example Zero Lightning loops does almost zero damage at max scaling, or Time Storm doing H x n scales hella hard, compared to a combo that perhaps has a wider variation of attacks in it, as a loop and infinite prevention system.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    flicky wrote: »
    This is just my theory, but I think damage scales the more times you use a single move in a combo. For example Zero Lightning loops does almost zero damage at max scaling, or Time Storm doing H x n scales hella hard, compared to a combo that perhaps has a wider variation of attacks in it, as a loop and infinite prevention system.

    Lightning Loop as we know it in this game is a bad example though since the only known setup uses Million Dollars, which already burns through most of the scaling.

    Meanwhile, Morrigan's j.HP airdash loop doesn't seem to scale that hard.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,057
    Even if the game is reset heavy or prone to resets... it's unlikely it will be as crazy as skullgirls because skullgirls has no tech flip in midair at all. That means the opponent is basically at your mercy pretty much all the time. Marvel having flip outs makes making resets much harder since you have to deal with varying midair techs that are invincible on startup and can go in 3 directions.

    Maybe it will be more about ground combos into crossups/non crossup tag ins... maybe. Time will tell.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    Dime wrote: »
    Even if the game is reset heavy or prone to resets... it's unlikely it will be as crazy as skullgirls because skullgirls has no tech flip in midair at all. That means the opponent is basically at your mercy pretty much all the time. Marvel having flip outs makes making resets much harder since you have to deal with varying midair techs that are invincible on startup and can go in 3 directions.

    Maybe it will be more about ground combos into crossups/non crossup tag ins... maybe. Time will tell.

    Oh hey, we can talk about Skullgirls again without getting into a fight because what's his face has been banned.

    But yes, I see us doing a lot more stuff on the ground here, because of that, and because tag ins come in from the ground. It's going to put a bigger premium on air to ground combos, and when combined with other mechanics, define how we extend and optimize our combos, not just in training mode, but in the middle of a match.

    I mean, if some form of tag into DUD jump (or DUD jump into tag, into DUD jump even) is the most basic form of grounded reset, then that's going to affect how you tag mid combo, since you the more you do it, the longer the cooldown becomes. That's on top of other considerations such as grounded undizzy, HSD, and combo limits (1 OTG, 1 wallbounce). I think it'll lend the game a certain more "freeform" quality similar to Skullgirls (and MvC2) that I felt was somewhat diminished in 3 with guaranteed TODs (and not being able to TOD could be fixed by a TAC).
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 10
    Ultron is a character I consider top tier already. He has full screen beans, tridashes, (flight?), durable short range projectile similar to dark hole, his own command grab, his own assists... seems capable as a point and support character.

    Captain Marvel and Nova are definitely upper tier. Ulton has more tools than them so it's hard to say they are as good as him. But are still likely top tier minus the full screen beams (Captain Marvel may have one but Phuck Dat Bich- haven't messed with her since Civil War 2).

    Iron Man is definitely better than in 3- if he has better dashes than he did in that game than he is high if not top tier. Hawkeye has also improved too and is definitely a high tier unless other characters have similar tools**

    Though removing assists has placed the onus on the point characters capability on point, I still rate characters that can dominate the neutral from all ranges (footsies to full screen to the air) and can take advantage of the tag mechanics from all situations (from mix ups to given tags off fullscreen beams).

    The gems can also make a character better.

    I think characters like Chun Li, Ryu and Frank West are good once they're in (or leveled up). But without assists, don't really have a way of getting in unless their opponent picks characters that don't possess the tools to keep them out i.e have no beams or can't put hitboxes around the screen- basically, characters like them.

    **-It seems like the tiers will be more condensed. Removing assists means a characters support capability isn't as big a factor in how good they are. Characters have also been given new moves and tools to help them in neutral. And as they all have access to gems, so it seems the game may be more balanced in terms of characters capability.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    quicks wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    What character do you guys think will replace Magneto as the character that is as good as the player? The honest top tier? Ultron or Carol?

    Iron man and nova have a good shout, morrigan too

    Nah Morrigan's done for the night. She can't flight cancel he soul fists. She doesn't have the mobility and full screen capabilities of Ultron or Ironman; mobility isn't as good as a Marvel or Nova.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    edited August 10
    I was under the impression that Captain MarvelStormneto had more tools than Ultron, at least based on Olaf's notes. Beams, flight, really good command normals with auto fly, command grabs, Lightning Attack that you can loop out of, armor install that gives her more usable armor than Nemesis, etc.
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 10
    She might do. But I hate her from the comics so iIwouldn't say she was the best even if she was. I'm not making no concerted efforts to look into her. Will find out about her when people post about her, pick her in matches or body me with her when my dismissal of her leaves me clueless about her play.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    Basic impression seems to be that she's the one who the whole functions thing applies to. Take functions from Storm and Magneto and put them in one character.
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,060
    CM looks like more of a pseudo big body in addition to her Storm-esque design. She's got temporary light armor and command grabs, something the standard rushdown character doesn't have. As far as the whole "stormneto" thing goes, seems like everyone with flight has staircase combos and the like. It leads me to believe that Mags/Storm level movement wasn't dumped onto one character so much as it was attributed to flight in general. Hell, even Thor has a crisp flight mode.
    My Characters/Teams:
    UMvC3 - Spider-Man/Magneto/Dante, Zero/Dante/Strider, Doom/Dormammu/Dante
    SSF4 - Juri, Yun, El Fuerte
    Injustice - Flash, Zod, Lex Luthor
    Skullgirls - Cerebella/Squigly, Parasoul/Double
    GGXXAC+R - Slayer, Baiken

    3DS FC: 5043-2719-7330
  • quicksquicks Joined: Posts: 3,297
    edited August 10
    YawDan wrote: »
    quicks wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    What character do you guys think will replace Magneto as the character that is as good as the player? The honest top tier? Ultron or Carol?

    Iron man and nova have a good shout, morrigan too

    Nah Morrigan's done for the night. She can't flight cancel he soul fists. She doesn't have the mobility and full screen capabilities of Ultron or Ironman; mobility isn't as good as a Marvel or Nova.

    She's still got great mobility, good normals good mixups unlike nova ultron and co she has a legit reversal that can be made safe

    I just think she's done as a zoning character though
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 10
    Her mobility isn't on bpar with other flight and tri-dash characters. She's got good normals. But can't get in to use them. Least not in the way characters with better flight and mobility can. She also needs to be in to use her mix-ups- she will be reliant on tag mechanics or just being better than the character she's against, to dominate and enforce these, than other actual top tiers are. She can be runaway from or kept out now.

    Reversals aren't crucial to neutral, particularly when it comes to projectiles or fighting at range.

    They nerfed her as a zoning character. But didn't enhance her other capabilities to nowhere near a compensatory extent.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    edited August 10
    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    CM looks like more of a pseudo big body in addition to her Storm-esque design. She's got temporary light armor and command grabs, something the standard rushdown character doesn't have. As far as the whole "stormneto" thing goes, seems like everyone with flight has staircase combos and the like. It leads me to believe that Mags/Storm level movement wasn't dumped onto one character so much as it was attributed to flight in general. Hell, even Thor has a crisp flight mode.

    "Stormneto" is what Olaf was calling her and he says it's the reason you see a lot of players (e.g. Justin) picking her up. Probably reminds them more of those two than any other character.

    She seems to be an easy to use character with a high ceiling and the tools to dominate certain areas. That and it seems she's got tools that seem like they're open to further development down the line.
    quicks wrote: »
    YawDan wrote: »
    quicks wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    What character do you guys think will replace Magneto as the character that is as good as the player? The honest top tier? Ultron or Carol?

    Iron man and nova have a good shout, morrigan too

    Nah Morrigan's done for the night. She can't flight cancel he soul fists. She doesn't have the mobility and full screen capabilities of Ultron or Ironman; mobility isn't as good as a Marvel or Nova.

    She's still got great mobility, good normals good mixups unlike nova ultron and co she has a legit reversal that can be made safe

    I just think she's done as a zoning character though

    Dash cancelable normals add a lot to her damage. A lot of folks who've played the latest builds feel that she's still strong.

    Bullet hell was just one part of what Morrigan was capable of in 3 - it's just that that's what people latched on to. She had a lot of potential in other areas and it seems they want to draw it out here.

    That said, Astral Vision isn't really affected by Gold Pushblock since the clone doesn't necessarily stay at the same distance from the opponent - Soul Fists don't hit at the same time.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 10
    quicks wrote: »
    YawDan wrote: »
    quicks wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    What character do you guys think will replace Magneto as the character that is as good as the player? The honest top tier? Ultron or Carol?

    Iron man and nova have a good shout, morrigan too

    Nah Morrigan's done for the night. She can't flight cancel he soul fists. She doesn't have the mobility and full screen capabilities of Ultron or Ironman; mobility isn't as good as a Marvel or Nova.

    She's still got great mobility, good normals good mixups unlike nova ultron and co she has a legit reversal that can be made safe

    I just think she's done as a zoning character though

    Done as a zoning character when they've buffed astral vision's timer to twice as long as it was in UMVC3? I dunno.

    lOZ0NJ.gif

    She officially gets a tool that allows zoning to some degree the instant she activates astral vision. It still has the OP capability of firing a fireball behind the opponent so they can only move backwards in a specific direction automatically keeping them to a zone. Add time storm to that and it basically becomes lockdown on top of zoning. If she shoots in the air like that with time storm soul fists she can basically cover most of the air with a shit ton of soul fists connected flying into the air. Time storm brings the recovery of all of your specials to near zero, so she can cancel soul fists without flight, faster than she could in UMVC3.

    With the new mechanics and the fact that astral vision still builds meter on hit, she will likely be in astral vision most of the time she's in play. High level I don't think you'll ever see Morrigan without astral vision on very often. The activation is back to being the main part of her gameplan. With the game not being as DHC reliant and tag supers basically acting as one meter THC's and she'll always have meter for Astral.


    Combine that with harmonious spear which makes the soul fists build more meter on hit and then throw time, space or mind storm in there and I already see her being one of the best characters. Mind Storm specifically makes things even more nuts as you can just spam other supers and tag supers, then reactivate astral vision towards the end and still have 4 full bars to use with an activation super that builds meter on contact.

    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • killthevibekillthevibe i'm a marvel/dbz player now Joined: Posts: 661
    eLdqeHW.jpg


    Not sure how useful this mind stone command grab is going to be. Range looks pretty damn small
  • killthevibekillthevibe i'm a marvel/dbz player now Joined: Posts: 661
    wasn't ground dashing significantly nerfed? i'd bet money Ryu is going to be bottom 3 in this game.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 10
    wasn't ground dashing significantly nerfed? i'd bet money Ryu is going to be bottom 3 in this game.

    Not really. Walk speeds per character are generally faster than in Marvel 3 (not that you need to walk in this game any way). The walk speeds generally look closer to older Marvel games. As opposed to Marvel 3 where Wolverine, Akuma and Morrigan were the only characters that could walk fast.

    On top of that Ryu doesn't have a down down DP or down down super so you can wave dash with him more reliably. Even with a character like Captain America that has a down down DP I was still moving pretty well with him using well timed wave dashes. Plus DUD movement gives everyone KOF style hop to get around. Even Arthur is mobile now because of that (and having a dash)

    I honestly don't think there's a character in the game with really bad mobility anymore because of the way it works.

    r0OB82.gif



    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,777
    I'm excited to see optimized setups with tags and stones, like million dollars on hit, tag into Morrigan, activate time storm, do harmonious spear and spam soul fist, or even some combos with reality storm elemental bullshit.
    But at the same time, I'm scared it will get boring if everyone end up using Dante because million dollars is the best lockdown super.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 10
    eL


    Not sure how useful this mind stone command grab is going to be. Range looks pretty damn small

    The mind stone command grab I believe is designed to give everyone a Command Grab Lite if they get in bear hug close. Otherwise it would be redundant for command grab characters if they get another command grab with the same range and would be a bit too stupid if zoning characters can just run up to you and threaten an unblockable grab.

    Plus Zero with a command grab is dishonest by principle
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 11
    Guess there will be a tier list for the gems? I personally think the power stone is the worse as it doesn't really help improve any characters neutral. The fact there are no TODs in this game means the main benefit of its storm, more damage, isn't that significant. Unless it enables characters to TOD then it's awesome.

    I think the reality stone has the best applications in neutral of all the gems released so far. I'm not sure about the durability of its surge. Then again, I'm expecting everyone trying to play seriously to pick at least one chatacter that already has a projectile or beam that covers the screen anyway. Not sure if the elements during its storm are random. But the gem does a good job of disrupting the opponents game overall, while assisting the users.

    Space gem probably has the best storm. Its surge will only be effective situational e.g during combos or when opponent is already in disadvantageous position. Should be able to just use it raw against a competent player.

    Time gem is useful in neutral. Aids characters with poor mobility or those that struggle to get in. But you would already need a hit confirm to take advantage of its storm, or the player could render that (gems storm) useless by running away.

    Not trying to mess with a Zero with the mind gem and a good partner. Refillable meter during its storm is ridiculous for characters with great meter abilities eg sougenmu. A person should really be getting hit by a command raw in neutral, and would especially not want to when they are also stunned afterwards. But with assists gone, and the game shifting towards footsies, its surge is likely to come into play more often.

    I think the reality gem is the best of the 5 released so far as it is useful for the whole cast. Mind next as it's surge is somewhat practical in neutral, and meter can also be used for counter switching if you are getting dominated in neutral. Space gem has the best storm. But doesn't really help outside of it and you'd have to be getting dominate to build the gauge, which would mean the gem couldn't protecting you during play. Time is next. But feel its surge is generally more useful in neutral than it's storm.
    Post edited by YawDan on
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 11
    Captain America: Has potential in the new game. Now that everyone can OTG he definitely doesn't have to worry about that problem. He always had some basic good stuff like a fast 4 frame low with range and a DP special that now can be done with down down motion to simplify use in tight situations. DPs weren't hugely relevant in Marvel 3 because they were tough to convert off of in a game where ToD's off stuff you could convert off of ran the game. With the tag system that could change as now DPs could possibly be safe ways to get people off of you and tag into new pressure or potentially a combo. Most likely will still have all of his projectile invincible stuff, but the problem with his projectile invul stuff is that it doesn't cover stuff coming from the air too well.

    Also gets a new counter, but counters typically aren't great in fighting games and especially not in Marvel type games. Just a ton of ways to bait stuff like that or put shit on the screen that could screw up his punish. Looks solid, but Captain America has always been solid and that's where he ends minus Marvel Super Heroes. Don't expect much different here especially considering none of his supers seem to be particularly great for tag pressure. I could see him being strong in Mind Storm with attack and projectile invincible supers and tagging into another character (if they retain the same properties from UMVC3).

    Cap could otg in Ultimate. His charging stars had full projectile invincibility when active. So it worked the same against air projectiles as it did against ground projectiles.

    His counters also activate off projectiles. He can use it on activation to safely tag in a partner. And if used sparingly, can catch an opponent out.

    Still, think he's biggest problem has always been keeping people away from him than off him. He's good in the mid range. But his poor recovery means most of his attacks can be punished if used incorrectly. And they could be moved around. Even his 4 frame light, if still the same was -2 on block I believe- still was definitely not a true frame trap.

    But his new trick shelds and the counter, give him tools deal with various situations.

    I think he may benefit from the reality gem more in neutral, or at the very least disrupt his opponents attack patterns. The time gem can help him maneuver about the screen more, especially in the air.

    Wary about him with the mind gem as he won't be able to force situations where he can use its surge against characters with good mobility. And his hypers are hail Marys, especially if he is solo where he will be free to a punish if he uses it wrong. Plus the damage reduction means its got a more unfavarouble risk/reward now.

    Was hoping Iron Man would maneuver better though.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,057
    Unless one of the stones is overpowered, the gems strength will be in teams.

    Particularly one of the biggest obvious team aspects of the game will be putting 2 characters together that can make a gem broken or near that. You don't want one strong space gem user with a mediocre space gem user as an example.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 870
    Mind Storm is pretty damn powerful though, it gives you hard knockdown and instant dizzy, if it's range was any bigger it would be broken to hell. Only thing I wonder is what the scaling is like on using it.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,116 mod
    Power seems to be the least flashy of all the stones.

    How good it becomes depends on how much damage versus meter build you get out of the storm. If you can get decent damage out of it without giving your opponent meter for counter switch, then maybe it can be useful.
  • KorbidonKorbidon Who can stand against such abominations? Joined: Posts: 4,622
    flicky wrote: »
    Mind Storm is pretty damn powerful though, it gives you hard knockdown and instant dizzy, if it's range was any bigger it would be broken to hell. Only thing I wonder is what the scaling is like on using it.

    scaling looks prett brutal in beta footage
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,060
    I think power stone has one of the better surges, which balances out how situational the storm is. Having an instant "get off me" move in neutral that can anti air and start combos is a godsend for characters without a traditional dp. I imagine characters like Spidey and Frank would love power for this reason (Frank never had a dp, and Spidey's was always more of a combo extender/offensive tool than a traditional dp).

    Are we ready for the inevitable discovery of the character/stone combo that breaks the game? Which combo are everyone's bets on? Mine is looking like Haggar/Space so far. The surge and the storm essentially guarantee free command grabs, and since the storm gives a free lvl3 he gets enough free damage to kill both characters. The only thing that can leave the box is projectiles, which his barrels can block....just too much safety and free damage on that combo.
    My Characters/Teams:
    UMvC3 - Spider-Man/Magneto/Dante, Zero/Dante/Strider, Doom/Dormammu/Dante
    SSF4 - Juri, Yun, El Fuerte
    Injustice - Flash, Zod, Lex Luthor
    Skullgirls - Cerebella/Squigly, Parasoul/Double
    GGXXAC+R - Slayer, Baiken

    3DS FC: 5043-2719-7330
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 11
    YawDan wrote: »
    Guess there will be a tier list for the gems? I personally think the power stone is the worse as it doesn't really help improve any characters neutral. The fact there are no TODs in this game means the main benefit of its storm, more damage, isn't that significant. Unless it enables characters to TOD then it's awesome.

    I think the reality stone has the best applications in neutral of all the gems released so far. I'm not sure about the durability of its surge. Then again, I'm expecting everyone trying to play seriously to pick at least one chatacter that already has a projectile or beam that covers the screen anyway. Not sure if the elements during its storm are random. But the gem does a good job of disrupting the opponents game overall, while assisting the users.

    Space gem probably has the best storm. Its surge will only be effective situational e.g during combos or when opponent is already in disadvantageous position. Should be able to just use it raw against a competent player.

    Time gem is useful in neutral. Aids characters with poor mobility or those that struggle to get in. But you would already need a hit confirm to take advantage of its storm, or the player could render that (gems storm) useless by running away.

    Not trying to mess with a Zero with the mind gem and a good partner. Refillable meter during its storm is ridiculous for characters with great meter abilities eg sougenmu. A person should really be getting hit by a command raw in neutral, and would especially not want to when they are also stunned afterwards. But with assists gone, and the game shifting towards footsies, its surge is likely to come into play more often.

    I think the reality gem is the best of the 5 released so far as it is useful for the whole cast. Mind next as it's surge is somewhat practical in neutral, and meter can also be used for counter switching if you are getting dominated in neutral. Space gem has the best storm. But doesn't really help outside of it and you'd have to be getting dominate to build the gauge, which would mean the gem couldn't protecting you during play. Time is next. But feel its surge is generally more useful in neutral than it's storm.



    It'll take time to see which stone is the strongest tier wise. If it's like Alpha 3 Ism there will be one stone that's clearly better than the rest. If it's like CVS2 there will be 2 or 3 stones that are top tier over the others, but the other will still have characters that are arguably the strongest in one of the others. Like how Cammy was arguably best in P groove even though she'd have to be in a groove that's not 100 percent optimal for other top tiers to get that power. N groove Morrigan was pretty similar. I assume it'll be most like the Arcanas in Arcana Heart where it will likely be a variety of ones are best for a character, but some that are clearly top.


    Power stone definitely improves neutral just on the surge alone. The surge creates a big hit box with decent start up and recovery from it seems that wall bounces the opponent for combos. For defensive characters like Hawkeye this is really good as he can use this to either move in for combos to extend damage or use it to do full screen combos or shot setups that keep the opponent away. Would also help Chris as it covers that angle of the screen that he is vulnerable from otherwise. It sounds like tridashers will have to be pretty careful with their offense vs that stone. One bad attempt could send them flying. Power storms best attribute is that it negates pushblock so once you let someone get in with power storm, you are basically getting hit somehow, someway. Which means if you kill one character with it, the next incoming character is getting wrecked as there's no pushblock to save them. Using it with characters that already have great offense and mobility like a Captain America or Spiderman should prove to be pretty dangerous.


    Reality stone seems pretty good just because everyone gets essentially an H shot fireball to occupy space on the screen and it's the only gem that allows you to double the power of its surge by tagging into another person using it to get 2 on the screen. From what I've heard the game doesn't use Marvel 3 durability system anymore, so a lot of projectiles just generically clash now. Not sure how beams vs projectiles interact but it's probably more similar to what it was in Marvel 2 or older games. The storm like written in the OP says that the elemental attacks are activated by simply pressing one of the attack buttons. Each one performs a different element. The elements work like Dormammu's spells/summons where once you press them they will release and stay active regardless of if you get hit or not. Meaning they also essentially act as combo breakers if you input one right before you get hit.

    Time gem surge/teleport is obviously good. Most likely will have some interesting shenanigans with tag, although using it raw has enough recovery where it seems like you can't abuse it too much. It also throws you nearly the whole screen across so it doesn't help if you need to be in a specific spot vs a very mobile character. It looks to be the most situational of the surges, but a good use basically gets you in. Plus the surges generically build your stone gauge a bit when activated. The storm gives you crazy attack strings that most likely will have ways to stop pushblock and takes the recovery of all of your specials to near zero from what's been said. Which means there are likely plenty of characters that can chase you down or lock you down with projectiles once they activate. Characters like Morrigan will most likely be able to create astral vision patterns that lock off the screen and stop a lot of push block tactics. Captain Marvel being able to just ram herself forward with teleport surges and lightning attack punches until she gets you sounds scary as well.

    If they don't change the properties of Time Storm too much by launch, I can see some of the cheesiest stuff in the game happening with clone activations + Time Storm. Morrigan, Zero and Gamora will all be busted in that storm.


    Mind stone will likely be a top tier storm because getting lots of meter in a game where meter has traditionally been the deciding factor of top tiers is going to be really good. It's just there are definitely other gems that look like they can build super meter pretty fast for you and there are characters with activation supers that let them build meter and have options that build further meter for them. Like Zero with lots of meter for sogenmu is good, but Time Storm Zero with 3 meters of time storm sogenmu with zero recovery specials is likely going to be cheaper. Sogenmu just by numbers and frame data will be cheaper in the storm that makes the data on it cheaper. Morrigan with always refilling meter for astral vision is good, but Time Storm astral is where it's at because astral vision still builds meter on hit any ways, harmonious spear adds a big meter buff to connected soul fists and zero recovery soul fists will allow her fireball and attack patterns that are more busted than her flight cancels in Ultimate. Which is great because these are all things that make them powerful enough to comeback by themselves with the surge and are just more busted if they have a tag partner available.


    The mind stone surge sounds strong just on the fact that it gives characters with no business having something unblockable, something unblockable. Likely will have weak frame/box data, but if you catch someone slipping it's there.
    YawDan wrote: »
    Captain America: Has potential in the new game. Now that everyone can OTG he definitely doesn't have to worry about that problem. He always had some basic good stuff like a fast 4 frame low with range and a DP special that now can be done with down down motion to simplify use in tight situations. DPs weren't hugely relevant in Marvel 3 because they were tough to convert off of in a game where ToD's off stuff you could convert off of ran the game. With the tag system that could change as now DPs could possibly be safe ways to get people off of you and tag into new pressure or potentially a combo. Most likely will still have all of his projectile invincible stuff, but the problem with his projectile invul stuff is that it doesn't cover stuff coming from the air too well.

    Also gets a new counter, but counters typically aren't great in fighting games and especially not in Marvel type games. Just a ton of ways to bait stuff like that or put shit on the screen that could screw up his punish. Looks solid, but Captain America has always been solid and that's where he ends minus Marvel Super Heroes. Don't expect much different here especially considering none of his supers seem to be particularly great for tag pressure. I could see him being strong in Mind Storm with attack and projectile invincible supers and tagging into another character (if they retain the same properties from UMVC3).

    Cap could otg in Ultimate. His charging stars had full projectile invincibility when active. So it worked the same against air projectiles as it did against ground projectiles.

    His counters also activate off projectiles. He can use it on activation to safely tag in a partner. And if used sparingly, can catch an opponent out.

    Still, think he's biggest problem has always been keeping people away from him than off him. He's good in the mid range. But his poor recovery means most of his attacks can be punished if used incorrectly. And they could be moved around. Even his 4 frame light, if still the same was -2 on block I believe- still was definitely not a true frame trap.

    But his new trick shelds and the counter, give him tools deal with various situations.

    I think he may benefit from the reality gem more in neutral, or at the very least disrupt his opponents attack patterns. The time gem can help him maneuver about the screen more, especially in the air.

    Wary about him with the mind gem as he won't be able to force situations where he can use its surge against characters with good mobility. And his hypers are hail Marys, especially if he is solo where he will be free to a punish if he uses it wrong. Plus the damage reduction means its got a more unfavarouble risk/reward now.

    Was hoping Iron Man would maneuver better though.

    I was just saying moreso that Captain America's problem dealing with fireballs is that he has a lot of tools that can stop ground based zoning, but diagonal/aerial based zoning he can't do much about. Charging star just doesn't hit those spots of the screen where Phoenix, Trish and Morrigan dominated with their zoning.

    Yeah Cap could OTG, it's just he started out in a Vanilla game where he couldn't and it's nice that he's now in a game like Ryu is here now where you just don't have to give a shit about OTG rules anymore.

    Counter just seems like it'll have too many ways to be baited with the tag system. Too many ways to activate it via a projectile then tag into a character that is moving around the hit box for the counter. Which the hit box for the counter activation just seems like a generic launcher attack. It's not like he charging stars across the screen or anything. Just seems like a generic hit box with a certain range that can be baited. Anyone with a command grab is going to make it really risky as well.


    I think he'll be pretty scary in Mind Storm as your hailmary supers suddenly turn into relatively safe FADC style supers where you can just bash out an invincible or projectile invincible super and if it works great. If it doesn't work you tag into someone safe who most likely gets free pressure. He'll be able to bully the neutral a lot with the tag system and refilling meter. That's with 2 characters though. If you're down to one then he isn't anything special in Mind Storm.

    We'll see about Iron Man come launch. Just in my playtesting it didn't seem like plink dashing or anything did much to improve his mobility. Like it barely worked with him so people are going to have to come up with other tech or something to get him to move.
    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    I think power stone has one of the better surges, which balances out how situational the storm is. Having an instant "get off me" move in neutral that can anti air and start combos is a godsend for characters without a traditional dp. I imagine characters like Spidey and Frank would love power for this reason (Frank never had a dp, and Spidey's was always more of a combo extender/offensive tool than a traditional dp).

    Are we ready for the inevitable discovery of the character/stone combo that breaks the game? Which combo are everyone's bets on? Mine is looking like Haggar/Space so far. The surge and the storm essentially guarantee free command grabs, and since the storm gives a free lvl3 he gets enough free damage to kill both characters. The only thing that can leave the box is projectiles, which his barrels can block....just too much safety and free damage on that combo.

    Space Haggar sounds really really really scary. Both with the surge (which I hear can do things like force people's air dashes to fly out of the way of the opponent) and storm.

    This is likely going to be Haggar's best game. The gems essentially give him powers that he shouldn't be having and that's the sign of potential for a character to be busted. As cheap as XF and UMVC3 generally was, he wasn't allowed to do the things he can do with the tag system and these gems.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,057
    And people say I write walls of text... sheesh.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 11
    Dime wrote: »
    And people say I write walls of text... sheesh.

    We talking about a lot of things here. 5 out of 6 different gems and lots of characters.


    I never figured out how you write walls about one character or one tool of one character in SFV lol. If you can do all of that for a simple, barebones fighter what's going to happen in MAHVEL?

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 11
    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    I think power stone has one of the better surges, which balances out how situational the storm is. Having an instant "get off me" move in neutral that can anti air and start combos is a godsend for characters without a traditional dp. I imagine characters like Spidey and Frank would love power for this reason (Frank never had a dp, and Spidey's was always more of a combo extender/offensive tool than a traditional dp).

    All dps anti-air, from stars and stripes to Wolverine's to Hulk's to Spiderman's. It was their properties that were different e.g pushback, cancellable, multi-hitting etc.
    Are we ready for the inevitable discovery of the character/stone combo that breaks the game? Which combo are everyone's bets on? Mine is looking like Haggar/Space so far. The surge and the storm essentially guarantee free command grabs, and since the storm gives a free lvl3 he gets enough free damage to kill both characters. The only thing that can leave the box is projectiles, which his barrels can block....just too much safety and free damage on that combo.

    I would need to know more about the newer characters to say lol. Will also need to know what the soul gem does. Still, no one should be getting hit by space surge into command grab. Being inactive is one of the worse things you can do in a Marvel game besides blocking.

    General comment... power surge is decent- within range. Virtually useless outside of it. When I say neutral I consider all parts of the screen; a character unable to get in has no use for the power gems surge nor storm.

    That said, the better characters can make better use of the gems. Whereas some gems may npt make a character any better.
    Dime wrote: »
    And people say I write walls of text... sheesh.

    We talking about a lot of things here. 5 out of 6 different gems and lots of characters.


    I never figured out how you write walls about one character or one tool of one character in SFV lol. If you can do all of that for a simple, barebones fighter what's going to happen in MAHVEL?

    I'll be using spoilers again more frequently.
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 11
    I'm figuring space surge will work where using it at the right time on reaction or anticipation will allow you to pull in and armor absorb attacks and then punish.

    I don't know if there will be very many unable to get in characters anymore. If Haggar is in power storm fighting a 2 character zoning/8 way air dash team, then maybe. Otherwise with how strong basic movement is in this game he's likely to get in at least once even with power stone. Which with no pushblock and the removal of early chicken blocking all it'll take is one get in with power storm and it's over. A Haggar that stops pushblock basically has to drop the controller for you to not get hit.


    I see power surge being better for "if people get in on you". Meaning you're playing a zoning character where you just have it there ready as people approach. An extra defensive option that characters with otherwise slower/tougher to set up defensive options like Strange could really use. Hawkeye is going to love anything that throws the opponent back full screen if they get hasty up close.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited August 11
    How does power's storm work? I saw Ryu getting multiple wallbounces and hard knock downs on the initial trailers. Does the storm continously reset hard knock downs, ground bounces and wallbounces?

    But yo- they took nerfed chicken blocking? Kind of balances taking out frame perfect high-low unblockables. But ok. They're making players have to deal with these hard-to-blockables now... @Intuitive2011, screw you
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,060
    The risks of using Cap's counter are not really that high with tags. You can counter and immediately tag out so that if you guessed wrong your incoming character can react. Cap seems to be designed around a lot of ways to turn defense into offense for your partner. I imagine he will be a good partner to zoners with combo potential. Zoners can build the life lead that forces the enemy to play more aggressive, then Cap can take advantage of that to counter/dp/charge through their approach and tag back for a full combo.
    My Characters/Teams:
    UMvC3 - Spider-Man/Magneto/Dante, Zero/Dante/Strider, Doom/Dormammu/Dante
    SSF4 - Juri, Yun, El Fuerte
    Injustice - Flash, Zod, Lex Luthor
    Skullgirls - Cerebella/Squigly, Parasoul/Double
    GGXXAC+R - Slayer, Baiken

    3DS FC: 5043-2719-7330
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,057
    Dime wrote: »
    And people say I write walls of text... sheesh.


    I never figured out how you write walls about one character or one tool of one character in SFV lol. If you can do all of that for a simple, barebones fighter what's going to happen in MAHVEL?


    Oh, there will be walls, and they will have text the likes of which you have never seen.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 11
    YawDan wrote: »
    How does power's storm work? I saw Ryu getting multiple wallbounces and hard knock downs on the initial trailers. Does the storm continously reset hard knock downs, ground bounces and wallbounces?

    But yo- they took nerfed chicken blocking? Kind of balances taking out frame perfect high-low unblockables. But ok. They're making players have to deal with these hard-to-blockables now... @Intuitive2011, screw you


    Not sure on the specifics of that, though what you said is likely.

    Read this as it basically details an outline of some of the smaller properties of each stone. Says more hitstun is added and slam property is added. Plus opponent can't pushblock



    https://docs.google.com/document/d/16KLreX4v30LAESkprWXYy7OYMC0ZxeoDomPBvHxOfnw/mobilebasic


    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    The risks of using Cap's counter are not really that high with tags. You can counter and immediately tag out so that if you guessed wrong your incoming character can react. Cap seems to be designed around a lot of ways to turn defense into offense for your partner. I imagine he will be a good partner to zoners with combo potential. Zoners can build the life lead that forces the enemy to play more aggressive, then Cap can take advantage of that to counter/dp/charge through their approach and tag back for a full combo.

    Right, it's just also with tags the rate of success with the counters will be pretty low. Likely just be a lot of stalemate situations where he tries to catch an attack and then he tags, but then the opponent tags to and he's not able to actually hit anything. Counters are generally pretty bad in Marvel or require way too much reading of what the opponent is doing and accounting for whatever they called as an assist. Better off just doing a DP that won't lose to grabs or baited air dash/teleport movements.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,339
    Thoughts on the stones:
    • Power: The surge seems easy enough to appreciate (especially for characters who lack a wall bounce move of , but I think the storm is significantly less useful for zoning characters. As an example, consider Hulk, Hawkeye, and Rocket Raccoon. The lack of pushblock is ridiculous on Hulk, and the extra hitstun gives characters like Rocket Raccoon new combo routes. Unless there's something I'm missing, Hawkeye would be at a disadvantage among Power Stone users because his main role as a space control character isn't enhanced. You might get some cool combos, but you don't pick a character like that for combos.
    • Time: While I think Time+Clone supers will be pretty busted, I'm not sold yet on it being across-the-board strong. The teleport is pretty weak compared to most of the MvC3 teleports. In addition, not every character will have the kind of moves that lend themselves well to a Custom Combo system. I think Time will be really strong when built around, but you won't be able to just tack it onto a team like some others.
    • Space: While people were really excited about the box, I'm more interested in seeing how the suction attack will work on characters like Haggar or Hulk. Being able to directly move your opponent is really good for characters that don't have the best movement themselves. The shame cube prevents runaway and tag outs, but a trapped opponent can still pushblock and force you to keep moving forward. Another thing I want to try out is using the space stone with mine/trap type projectiles, which could make for some really trippy zoning patterns.
    • Reality: If there's any stone that should be good on its own without worrying too much about team composition, I think it will be the Reality stone. Being able to add another projectile onto the screen is strong for any character, and any team can abuse the double projectile trick with tags. Reality storm also has a lot of potential for pixies, zoners, rushdown, and big bodies alike.
    • Mind: People are sleeping on this stone hard, imo. While your combo from the command grab might be scaled to shit, the stun gives you an insane amount of time to set up something to circumvent it. Also, there are uses for this meter from the Mind Storm that aren't making waves yet. Doesn't Dante's level 3 OTG now, on top of causing a hard knockdown? I'm thinking about ending a combo with the level 3, activate Mind Storm, end the follow up with a free level 3 from the Infinity Storm, then tack on ANOTHER level 3 using all the meter you built from the storm. You're looking at a combo with potentially 3 level 3 hypers, which if memory serves will still hurt like hell even at max scaling.

    I really want to see the Soul Stone, as the rumored "resurrection" mechanic might not work the way people think it will. I say this because all the Infinity Storms so far have had some sort of "duration" to them. The storm might be a temporary boost to both characters that enables you to use dead partners again.
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • quicksquicks Joined: Posts: 3,297
    Time stone is definitely my first toy
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,861 mod
    edited August 11
    Power stone I think can work for Hawkeye just because a zoning character that can get improved offense is always good. A Hawkeye that can suddenly move in and rush you down with no pushblock available is pretty scary and his full screen combos if/when they hit will definitely do more damage and have new combo routes due to the hit stun changes. Pretty much every character gets good rushdown if you can't pushblock them. Even really shitty strings becomes difficult to deal with without pushblock.

    No pushblock also means you can't use the typical pushblock patterns against zoning characters to space yourself out of zoning strings and get away. Power stone could be low key strong for zoners if you account for all of that. Arthur is going to love forcing goddess braclet super down people's throats with tagged into more BS that they have to sit and hold.

    I guess according to what was said it still negates chip if you pushblock though. Sounds like you can still technically pushblock, you just lose the pushback effect. So I guess the opponent can still negate chip.




    The Soul stone will be interesting to see. It's likely that it could be the one, no duration super. I really can't imagine how they would make a temporary resurrection work. It just seems weird to come up with in concept. I think it would be complicated for someone new to have to account for a character that temporarily comes back to them after death.

    Soul stone is definitely going to be the most interesting one as far as properties especially considering the surge is rumored to "passively" build health back. Definitely a wait and see thing with that stone.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


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