MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

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  • flighflighflugitflighflighflugit Joined: Posts: 1,464
    Yea just a push block. Not gonna lie most players I play against are much better at reflecting than i am.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    I've been perfecting my wall cling firebrand balls, not that they're as effective as MVC3 but dude was reflecting them back at me online like he was throwing fireballs. Might have been hax, but it only lasted for a second. The mechanics have me beside myself still. I'm starting to see the neutral switch opportunities though and my fingers are responding. Soon I'll journey to NLBC and embarrass myself.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,735
    edited October 5
    Airdash pressure (aka derpdash from now on) is starting to really piss me off. That and teleports.

    I don't remember having this much trouble with derpdash or teleports in any other game. The game feels way to rushdown heavy, like I'm pushblocking derpdashes and I'm still being put into blockstun from said derpdashes. Feels lucky to get out of the derpdash especially when cornered. The only good thing is that I'm pretty decent at blocking the high/low, but it doesn't matter because I eventually get opened up when I miss a pushblock or press a button that gets hit.

    The offense in this game feels like anathema.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • dizzynecrodizzynecro Shenanigans! Joined: Posts: 895
    Push block reflect is pretty easy. Just make sure you actually block the hit before you press anything.
  • flighflighflugitflighflighflugit Joined: Posts: 1,464
    Dime wrote: »
    Airdash pressure (aka derpdash from now on) is starting to really piss me off. That and teleports.

    I don't remember having this much trouble with derpdash or teleports in any other game. The game feels way to rushdown heavy, like I'm pushblocking derpdashes and I'm still being put into blockstun from said derpdashes. Feels lucky to get out of the derpdash especially when cornered. The only good thing is that I'm pretty decent at blocking the high/low, but it doesn't matter because I eventually get opened up when I miss a pushblock or press a button that gets hit.

    The offense in this game feels like anathema.

    Who do you play?
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,833 mod
    Hero_Panda wrote: »
    Coon is the problem. Jedahcoon just won NLBC tonight without dropping a match.

    Was it SonicFox that won? I'm sure Fox can place high with alot of teams, because he's that skilled.
    I mean, Juri is not on anyone's high tier list, despite having won a tournament that had 3 Rashids in top 8.

    It was somewhat sarcastic obviously, but Coon is starting to create the assist support I realized for this game. Basically certain characters even if they aren't top tier on point are going to have assists that are top tier for another character. The tag system lets yout abuse any characters entire moves list in neutral.

    Juri proves that she's better than Fang at least. She's had overall better results than him and has a good toolset. She's just not as cheap as some of the higher tiers and only one player actually optimizes her play style (who doesn't go to tournaments)

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,735
    Dime wrote: »
    Airdash pressure (aka derpdash from now on) is starting to really piss me off. That and teleports.

    I don't remember having this much trouble with derpdash or teleports in any other game. The game feels way to rushdown heavy, like I'm pushblocking derpdashes and I'm still being put into blockstun from said derpdashes. Feels lucky to get out of the derpdash especially when cornered. The only good thing is that I'm pretty decent at blocking the high/low, but it doesn't matter because I eventually get opened up when I miss a pushblock or press a button that gets hit.

    The offense in this game feels like anathema.

    Who do you play?

    Right now ironman/Arthur
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • flighflighflugitflighflighflugit Joined: Posts: 1,464
    edited October 5
    You'd probably have to run reality stone with that team to stop the all out airdashing. Without repulsor blast, you don't have a strong hitbox above your head
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    dizzynecro wrote: »
    Push block reflect is pretty easy. Just make sure you actually block the hit before you press anything.

    oh serious? so you block then push it back? HA! Here I am hitting it with my face. Okay got it.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    edited October 5
    Hero_Panda wrote: »
    Coon is the problem. Jedahcoon just won NLBC tonight without dropping a match.

    Was it SonicFox that won? I'm sure Fox can place high with alot of teams, because he's that skilled.
    I mean, Juri is not on anyone's high tier list, despite having won a tournament that had 3 Rashids in top 8.

    It was somewhat sarcastic obviously, but Coon is starting to create the assist support I realized for this game. Basically certain characters even if they aren't top tier on point are going to have assists that are top tier for another character. The tag system lets yout abuse any characters entire moves list in neutral.

    Juri proves that she's better than Fang at least. She's had overall better results than him and has a good toolset. She's just not as cheap as some of the higher tiers and only one player actually optimizes her play style (who doesn't go to tournaments)

    Whose that Gentleman thief? Very VF of him.

    Dime wrote: »
    Airdash pressure (aka derpdash from now on) is starting to really piss me off. That and teleports.

    I don't remember having this much trouble with derpdash or teleports in any other game. The game feels way to rushdown heavy, like I'm pushblocking derpdashes and I'm still being put into blockstun from said derpdashes. Feels lucky to get out of the derpdash especially when cornered. The only good thing is that I'm pretty decent at blocking the high/low, but it doesn't matter because I eventually get opened up when I miss a pushblock or press a button that gets hit.

    The offense in this game feels like anathema.

    Yeah offense in this game is OD almost makes me think that it had a producer from the RSD generation that played Spencer.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,735
    You'd probably have to run reality stone with that team to stop the all out airdashing. Without repulsor blast, you don't have a strong hitbox above your head

    Yeah I've been running reality stone with this team for that reason. Just need to get better at using it I guess.

    I find it pretty shitty that the only real defensive option in the game outside storm activation is a 9 frame startup non invincible move that forces you to switch synergies if you want to use it well.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • ClutchComboClutchCombo ClutchEXE Joined: Posts: 89
    There are still a couple chars I haven't fought against Frank, Spencer and Chris. I have no Idea what to expect. Frank looks pretty good at lvl 5 but chris and spencer I don't even have an opinion about
    SF V(Meh), MvCI and BB. Excited to try out DBFZ

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  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,644
    Time stone keepaway is a real thing. Cancelling whiffed normals into it is so OD to abuse and so effective if you condition your opponent. Still trying to figure out guard cancel punishes with it but I think this might work in THEORY:

    Counter switch, see your opponent commit, activate storm into 100 percent.

    Playing Jedah X Ultron I’m really enjoying their general movement plus time stone. It makes them even harder to pin down. And when you get their zoning patterns correct IE, covering the right angles, they’re such a strong pairing. Jedah HP Fireball plus Ultron drones and beam is so very annoying to deal with. And their box dash normals are kinda OD.
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • AlMoStLeGeNdArYAlMoStLeGeNdArY Optimize or Die Joined: Posts: 2,255
    Dime wrote: »
    Airdash pressure (aka derpdash from now on) is starting to really piss me off. That and teleports.

    I don't remember having this much trouble with derpdash or teleports in any other game. The game feels way to rushdown heavy, like I'm pushblocking derpdashes and I'm still being put into blockstun from said derpdashes. Feels lucky to get out of the derpdash especially when cornered. The only good thing is that I'm pretty decent at blocking the high/low, but it doesn't matter because I eventually get opened up when I miss a pushblock or press a button that gets hit.

    The offense in this game feels like anathema.

    They definitely toned down the defensive stuff in this game. Without assist it makes it pretty difficult to deal with the rush down. I suggest power stone. You'll slap a lot of people out of their offense.
  • charlie88charlie88 Ya'll niggas gay. The Keving Gates kinda gay. Joined: Posts: 4,975
    I'm just mad I can't play this game until November when I get my ps4. Yoi guys have like a 2 month time frame to learn play and enjoy. All I can do is watch and deal with poverty until then (sigh) smh


    One more question. Do installs stay when you tag out like they did in 3? I have only seen Dante go DT and switch out. Haven't seen that with anyone else yet.
    FC:1864 9258 8415
    PSN: Death_Loner_Kage
    Umvc3: Learning Viper...plays tron strange dante strider

    I am willing to play trade and embrace the suck
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HA-LU-KEN Joined: Posts: 4,161
    charlie88 wrote: »
    Do installs stay when you tag out like they did in 3? I have only seen Dante go DT and switch out. Haven't seen that with anyone else yet.

    It depends.
    - "Power up" installs stay active, though tagging might reduce their timers slightly. (Devil Trigger, Luminous Body, Armor of Light, Golden Armor)
    - "Double up" installs immediately end after tagging. (Sougenmu, Shadow Combination, Astral Vision)
    - Ouroboros also ends immediately after tagging.
    - I am not sure about Captain Marvel's Binary Ignition, but I would guess it falls under the "Power up" category
    NNID/XboxLive: UnSaxon51

    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    edited October 5
    It's funny how even though Coon is putting in work on tournies, online I've played against 1 Coon, 0 firebrands, and a million Jedahs, Dantes, Thanos, Ultron's with a sprinkle of spiderman, arthur, Chun Liand a few oddball Strange players, even big bodies are rare. Guess part is due to newness, Captain Marvel gets no love though, good. I don't know how to fight her yet.

  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,833 mod
    Coon looking like he has some good counter options for space storm. If you put him in the box he can just lay traps around himself and then good luck doing anything to him

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,735
    Something random I learned from watching sonic fox was how good angled projectile into tag is. Fox was abusing the hell out of this in their first set using coons st.hk gun tag into jedah dash. Was working beautifully.


    Arthur has same kind of setup with one of his projectiles on the ground.


    Sonicfox is definitely using a bit of skullgirls strategy here as well. When he has both characters it's basically ALWAYS a move tagged into the next character.

    Jedah pinwheel into tag and coon hk into tag.


    Something that will need to start happening more as well is I think people start doing special + tag. You get a lot more frame advantage this way since the special basically starts up after you tag in if its slow, or starts up as you tag in if it's fast. Makes certain specials much better like iron mans H unibeam is much better this way because if it gets blocked then you have crazy advantage to move in.


    After watching peach cola at NWM I've been thinking about gamora/Arthur since Hawkeye/gamora worked so well.

    Watching fox play it's pretty obvious one character is there for the assist and the other is there for the mixups... good if both characters can do both, but yeah.

    I need to switch more.

    Been getting my bnbs and tag bnbs down so I can compete better. Should do better now, but it's still a bitch not having any gtfo. Gonna put some more time into time stone so I can run for longer periods.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • JohnPauliukJohnPauliuk Joined: Posts: 400
    Yesterday I enjoyed being a dick with Ryu plus Time Storm because on hit or block you can cancel out of Shoryuken into a full combo. It was so funny spamming my invincible DP into combos even though they were far from optimal. I need to lab out a real combo so I can spam more online.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    Yeah, that was a big part of how I was playing Fire/Coon. I'd get out firebrands fireball explosions from the ground or the air and bring coon in. The thing is it didn't take up enough vertical space on the screen and honestly it's pretty slow. I started using firebrands torpedo move instead because it was faster but it didn't really give me enough lockdown although the mixup potential was greater. Since my movement is just okay I need more lockdown to get going so I'm thinking Dorm/Strange/Jedah will give me more meat and I'll start Coon. Leaning towards Coon/Dorm because of Dorms more classic flight.

    Firebrand while I love how they styled his flight he doesn't cover horizontal space in the air very well and he's always diving on approach. Too bad his c.jab doesn't hit low or he'd be super complete. As is he doesn't really have a true mixup after dive as his low hitting attacks are slow. After playing BP I think a lot of these issues will be solved and I can run Team Black/Coon similar in a very stifling way. Only thing that would be missing is a projectile lockdown to help Coon get in.
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HA-LU-KEN Joined: Posts: 4,161
    Firebrand while I love how they styled his flight he doesn't cover horizontal space in the air very well and he's always diving on approach. Too bad his c.jab doesn't hit low or he'd be super complete. As is he doesn't really have a true mixup after dive as his low hitting attacks are slow.

    I don't necessarily agree with the horizontal control part, but I've noticed FB's mixup being much weaker as well.

    However, isn't the crouching jab thing true for most characters? Like, don't most c.LP attacks hit high (for some reason) and only c.LK/c.HK hit low?
    NNID/XboxLive: UnSaxon51

    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • wakalakawakalaka Joined: Posts: 102
    Yeah, even Dante's c.lp where he's literally slashing at your feet is considered a high move lol
    CFN: PunishedEdwin
    MVCI: Erdwern
  • GhostTearGhostTear Vanessa for MVCI! Joined: Posts: 2,435
    edited October 6
    Coon looking like he has some good counter options for space storm. If you put him in the box he can just lay traps around himself and then good luck doing anything to him

    does the traps go away if you hit him? if not then ironman totally got screwed over
    Post edited by GhostTear on
  • ReticentlyReticently Joined: Posts: 3,972
    GhostTear wrote: »
    Coon looking like he has some good counter options for space storm. If you put him in the box he can just lay traps around himself and then good luck doing anything to him

    does the traps go away if you him? if not then ironman totally got screwed over

    They do actually, except for his Hyper Combo trap. You can also destroy them directly with certain attacks, or use things like Time Surge to trigger them safely.
  • GhostTearGhostTear Vanessa for MVCI! Joined: Posts: 2,435
    Reticently wrote: »
    GhostTear wrote: »
    Coon looking like he has some good counter options for space storm. If you put him in the box he can just lay traps around himself and then good luck doing anything to him

    does the traps go away if you him? if not then ironman totally got screwed over

    They do actually, except for his Hyper Combo trap. You can also destroy them directly with certain attacks, or use things like Time Surge to trigger them safely.

    ah okay. thanks for the info. =)
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    edited October 6
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »
    Firebrand while I love how they styled his flight he doesn't cover horizontal space in the air very well and he's always diving on approach. Too bad his c.jab doesn't hit low or he'd be super complete. As is he doesn't really have a true mixup after dive as his low hitting attacks are slow.

    I don't necessarily agree with the horizontal control part, but I've noticed FB's mixup being much weaker as well.

    However, isn't the crouching jab thing true for most characters? Like, don't most c.LP attacks hit high (for some reason) and only c.LK/c.HK hit low?

    True, I'm spoiled. If I recall Coons hits low and hits 4 frames, he has some of the fastest jabs actually. Granted it's mad short, those with slower jabs makeup for it in range though. Firebrands jabs are okay I suppose. I'm just finding it hard to really put pressure on people outside of multiple albeit slower overheads.

    I'm really liking mixup potential with BP. Thing is from what I can tell with BP I'll end up having to give up a lockdown for Rocket, Rocket plus Firebrands tornado is pretty glorious, almost on Jedah levels. Thing is Jedah doesn't have to be on the ground to control space with a pinwheel.
    Post edited by WorstPlayer on
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,566
    Yo, BlackCoon is a problem. Someone with better hands than me is going to abuse that shit. 17th I'm going to be getting Wakandan on that ass.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,754 mod
    Time stone keepaway is a real thing. Cancelling whiffed normals into it is so OD to abuse and so effective if you condition your opponent. Still trying to figure out guard cancel punishes with it but I think this might work in THEORY:

    Counter switch, see your opponent commit, activate storm into 100 percent.

    Playing Jedah X Ultron I’m really enjoying their general movement plus time stone. It makes them even harder to pin down. And when you get their zoning patterns correct IE, covering the right angles, they’re such a strong pairing. Jedah HP Fireball plus Ultron drones and beam is so very annoying to deal with. And their box dash normals are kinda OD.

    Yo, hit me up with the JedUltron + Time tech.
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,644
    Post kill:

    Ultron meaty QCB HP xx switch xx time surge 50/50.
    I think you could short hop cancel time surge to create IOH but I haven’t practiced it myself.

    Jedah meaty Fireball XX switch, time storm (Ultron). Choices are these:

    Kara cancel QCB Hp Fireball into command grab. LP drones or IOH pressure.
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,644
    d3v wrote: »
    Time stone keepaway is a real thing. Cancelling whiffed normals into it is so OD to abuse and so effective if you condition your opponent. Still trying to figure out guard cancel punishes with it but I think this might work in THEORY:

    Counter switch, see your opponent commit, activate storm into 100 percent.

    Playing Jedah X Ultron I’m really enjoying their general movement plus time stone. It makes them even harder to pin down. And when you get their zoning patterns correct IE, covering the right angles, they’re such a strong pairing. Jedah HP Fireball plus Ultron drones and beam is so very annoying to deal with. And their box dash normals are kinda OD.

    Yo, hit me up with the JedUltron + Time tech.

    There’s more to come in just too tired to list them all.
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,754 mod
    d3v wrote: »
    Time stone keepaway is a real thing. Cancelling whiffed normals into it is so OD to abuse and so effective if you condition your opponent. Still trying to figure out guard cancel punishes with it but I think this might work in THEORY:

    Counter switch, see your opponent commit, activate storm into 100 percent.

    Playing Jedah X Ultron I’m really enjoying their general movement plus time stone. It makes them even harder to pin down. And when you get their zoning patterns correct IE, covering the right angles, they’re such a strong pairing. Jedah HP Fireball plus Ultron drones and beam is so very annoying to deal with. And their box dash normals are kinda OD.

    Yo, hit me up with the JedUltron + Time tech.

    There’s more to come in just too tired to list them all.

    What's the zoning pattern with Time?
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,735
    d3v wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Time stone keepaway is a real thing. Cancelling whiffed normals into it is so OD to abuse and so effective if you condition your opponent. Still trying to figure out guard cancel punishes with it but I think this might work in THEORY:

    Counter switch, see your opponent commit, activate storm into 100 percent.

    Playing Jedah X Ultron I’m really enjoying their general movement plus time stone. It makes them even harder to pin down. And when you get their zoning patterns correct IE, covering the right angles, they’re such a strong pairing. Jedah HP Fireball plus Ultron drones and beam is so very annoying to deal with. And their box dash normals are kinda OD.

    Yo, hit me up with the JedUltron + Time tech.

    There’s more to come in just too tired to list them all.

    What's the zoning pattern with Time?

    Don't know about that, but here's some ironman Arthur synergy:

    Arthur point:

    Jump airdaggers x3, land daggers x3 tag on the third dagger, ironman gets in with frame advantage from just dash hold forward (he runs after the dash) extremely easy way to get in probably for most characters and barely needs setting up, but ironman uses it very well because of his dash going more than full screen.

    Ironman point:

    L unibeam xx tag, Arthur comes in and does airdaggers x3

    Basically covers the entire screen with crap and allows Arthur to setup his zoning.



    All in all:

    I think true keepaway is a bit to hard versus some characters with no AA assists available, so Arthur simply becomes a support character for getting characters in easily.

    And holy crap does he seem super good for doing that.

    His FHP thing that seems basically useless is actually decent when tagged from because it covers his tags head and then becomes a projectile that the tagged character can use.

    But honestly the wall strat that he used to use is super legit now because he can basically gain initiative from full screen for his tag partner.

    Teleporters get this also so it's kinda a moot point, but teleporters only have one way really of doing it. Arthur has multiple projectile patterns to tag into to get his homie in for free.

    Time stone makes this easier as well because when they rush you down you just port through em.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • dizzynecrodizzynecro Shenanigans! Joined: Posts: 895
    So what types of character work well with time Arthur. I'm digging him a lot but I don't wanna play iron man lol. Was thinking maybe Thanos?
  • AlMoStLeGeNdArYAlMoStLeGeNdArY Optimize or Die Joined: Posts: 2,255
    dizzynecro wrote: »
    So what types of character work well with time Arthur. I'm digging him a lot but I don't wanna play iron man lol. Was thinking maybe Thanos?

    I think Arthur can work with a lot of characters. Pair him with whoever you like and go ham tbh. Dorm/Arthur with time good be pretty cool.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,735
    edited October 7
    dizzynecro wrote: »
    So what types of character work well with time Arthur. I'm digging him a lot but I don't wanna play iron man lol. Was thinking maybe Thanos?

    I REALLY liked the strider/Arthur synergy of my first team, but strider is way to hard for me to play and learn.

    I also liked thanos for a few reasons:

    Thanos L fireball has a billion durability, or seems like it at least, this makes for a good wall for Arthur. Thanos is also pretty slow but I used him and Arthur with time stone where thanos can do weirdo mixups like L fireball, teleport>time stone>tag for like a double crossup, or thanos can simply do a quick time stone crossup into tag. Thanos is a decent user of time stone because like Arthur, he can just spam heavies to do like half life, then get a mixup when the hitstun decay really ramps up, I forget which hit will uncombo, but you stop at that hit and command grab or cr.lk.

    But basically any character can make use of a wall of swords coming at their opponent.

    Me personally my theory team was gamora/Arthur or chun/Arthur, the only problem would be stone synergy.

    I also think rocket/Arthur would be crazy because rocket can set out traps and Arthur can just camp on em and zone... but 2 supports... idk. Also not sure how Arthur to coon synergy would be.

    Arthur and dorm work well of course...Coles team has been putting in work. And you can throw Dante or ultron in there as well, hard for them to be on a bad team.

    Imho Arthur can work, with some adjustments, with any point character, more or less.

    So I'd stay away from like strange/Arthur and coon/Arthur because while the keepaway synergy might be through the roof, it only takes like one teleport to put you in the blender.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,644
    edited October 7
    Fireball zoning with Jedah:

    HP Fireball (uncharged) XX Air LK QCB XX switch xx (Ultron) drones XX LP/HP QCF. Depending on where your opponent is.

    (Charged) LP Fireball is good to set up 50/50 switch, is very useful against reality stone users also. My pattern with Ultron from there is to see what they’re plotting, call the non beam drone as it hits crouchers and go from there.

    Ultron:

    My flowchart looks something like this. Air drone, QCF LP/HP fireball depending on the angle they're at and always tag back to Jedah.
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • JohnPauliukJohnPauliuk Joined: Posts: 400
    I also use Thanos plus Time Stone to get in with Ryu. Sometimes I'll do Thanos projectile then tag Ryu Shimmy plus Time Stone so I can pick if I want to stay in front or go behind.

    Now Thanos Nullify is real, I won a whole match against a zoning team with it. That shit goes through supers. Start up is the only lack lustre thing about it.
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