MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

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  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,692
    @YawDan

    I'll still hit you. :)
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,889
    edited August 11
    Soul stone, healing would be obvious. Resurrection with stipulations is likely.
    Should allow for umvc3 assist calls with 3rd npc character of choice.

    Useful? Nah.... lol
  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,781
    I'm figuring space surge will work where using it at the right time on reaction or anticipation will allow you to pull in and armor absorb attacks and then punish.

    I don't know if there will be very many unable to get in characters anymore. If Haggar is in power storm fighting a 2 character zoning/8 way air dash team, then maybe. Otherwise with how strong basic movement is in this game he's likely to get in at least once even with power stone. Which with no pushblock and the removal of early chicken blocking all it'll take is one get in with power storm and it's over. A Haggar that stops pushblock basically has to drop the controller for you to not get hit.


    I see power surge being better for "if people get in on you". Meaning you're playing a zoning character where you just have it there ready as people approach. An extra defensive option that characters with otherwise slower/tougher to set up defensive options like Strange could really use. Hawkeye is going to love anything that throws the opponent back full screen if they get hasty up close.

    Would lariat>tag>space surge works on reaction to a long projectile though?
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 874
    I'm figuring space surge will work where using it at the right time on reaction or anticipation will allow you to pull in and armor absorb attacks and then punish.

    I don't know if there will be very many unable to get in characters anymore. If Haggar is in power storm fighting a 2 character zoning/8 way air dash team, then maybe. Otherwise with how strong basic movement is in this game he's likely to get in at least once even with power stone. Which with no pushblock and the removal of early chicken blocking all it'll take is one get in with power storm and it's over. A Haggar that stops pushblock basically has to drop the controller for you to not get hit.


    I see power surge being better for "if people get in on you". Meaning you're playing a zoning character where you just have it there ready as people approach. An extra defensive option that characters with otherwise slower/tougher to set up defensive options like Strange could really use. Hawkeye is going to love anything that throws the opponent back full screen if they get hasty up close.
    Haggar for example might be able to play the zoning game with barrels putting them in blockstun in the air, and then Space Suege on landing pulling them in for the grab before they have a chance to press a button or jump out.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    willseless wrote: »
    I'm figuring space surge will work where using it at the right time on reaction or anticipation will allow you to pull in and armor absorb attacks and then punish.

    I don't know if there will be very many unable to get in characters anymore. If Haggar is in power storm fighting a 2 character zoning/8 way air dash team, then maybe. Otherwise with how strong basic movement is in this game he's likely to get in at least once even with power stone. Which with no pushblock and the removal of early chicken blocking all it'll take is one get in with power storm and it's over. A Haggar that stops pushblock basically has to drop the controller for you to not get hit.


    I see power surge being better for "if people get in on you". Meaning you're playing a zoning character where you just have it there ready as people approach. An extra defensive option that characters with otherwise slower/tougher to set up defensive options like Strange could really use. Hawkeye is going to love anything that throws the opponent back full screen if they get hasty up close.

    Would lariat>tag>space surge works on reaction to a long projectile though?

    Interesting to think about. Something that could work in theory, but just a matter of seeing it in practice. I'm interested to know what the frames and invincibility or vulnerability are on a tag in general.





    flicky wrote: »
    I'm figuring space surge will work where using it at the right time on reaction or anticipation will allow you to pull in and armor absorb attacks and then punish.

    I don't know if there will be very many unable to get in characters anymore. If Haggar is in power storm fighting a 2 character zoning/8 way air dash team, then maybe. Otherwise with how strong basic movement is in this game he's likely to get in at least once even with power stone. Which with no pushblock and the removal of early chicken blocking all it'll take is one get in with power storm and it's over. A Haggar that stops pushblock basically has to drop the controller for you to not get hit.


    I see power surge being better for "if people get in on you". Meaning you're playing a zoning character where you just have it there ready as people approach. An extra defensive option that characters with otherwise slower/tougher to set up defensive options like Strange could really use. Hawkeye is going to love anything that throws the opponent back full screen if they get hasty up close.
    Haggar for example might be able to play the zoning game with barrels putting them in blockstun in the air, and then Space Suege on landing pulling them in for the grab before they have a chance to press a button or jump out.

    Depends on how long the block stun lasts on the barrels. Might be easier if they pushblock since that increases block stun. Providing the space stone can pull them quickly enough after the push back

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    @YawDan

    I'll still hit you. :)

    I meant that I've got to take your b.s now, when I could just chicken guard it in 3.

    Then again... I don't like this game, and I live across the street- I really don't
    "This was not srk. It should not be lower than gfaqs in terms of fighting game talk, but it is. That's all because of the outbreak of girly men, which is really the fault of atheism." Cisco, UMVC3 tierlist discussion, pg 333.
  • Doctrine DarkDoctrine Dark Yum Yum Joined: Posts: 7,440
    edited August 12
    ATmZEuo.gif

    Million Dollars looks so...basic when you see stuff like this.

    With the amount of stuff he has, I could see Dante being on a lot of teams early on.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
    PSN: SP_Wesker215/XBL: SP Wesker215
    Super Street Fighter Plot Guide II
    Street Fighter V: Cammy, Learning Menat Marvel: Captain Marvelous/Bucky DBFZ: Gohan/Freeza/Trunks
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    edited August 12
    Moves with short block stun like that will most likely be pretty good for mix up since long multi hitting moves just turn on auto block as long as it has the opponent in block stun. You likely won't be able to actually mix someone up during million dollars until the gap before the last shot.

    Also makes me wonder if the game works like Marvel 3 where any attack coming from an off screen or assist character negates pushblock. That's definitely part of what made the game very assist reliant as most strings could just be braindead pushed away without an assist. Which is why characters with multi hit normals on point were stronger by themselves during pressure since multi hit block strings lessened the pushback a lot.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,124 mod
    edited August 12
    It'll take time to see which stone is the strongest tier wise. If it's like Alpha 3 Ism there will be one stone that's clearly better than the rest. If it's like CVS2 there will be 2 or 3 stones that are top tier over the others, but the other will still have characters that are arguably the strongest in one of the others. Like how Cammy was arguably best in P groove even though she'd have to be in a groove that's not 100 percent optimal for other top tiers to get that power. N groove Morrigan was pretty similar. I assume it'll be most like the Arcanas in Arcana Heart where it will likely be a variety of ones are best for a character, but some that are clearly top.

    Isn't N the current best groove now in Japan? That just goes to show that time and extended play can shift what gems are considered best. It's another layer to the meta we'll have to keep our eye on. It might be a case of where a stone may be the 2nd or 3rd best for a character, but happens to be so for a specific set of characters that whrn teamed up become really good.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    edited August 12
    d3v wrote: »
    It'll take time to see which stone is the strongest tier wise. If it's like Alpha 3 Ism there will be one stone that's clearly better than the rest. If it's like CVS2 there will be 2 or 3 stones that are top tier over the others, but the other will still have characters that are arguably the strongest in one of the others. Like how Cammy was arguably best in P groove even though she'd have to be in a groove that's not 100 percent optimal for other top tiers to get that power. N groove Morrigan was pretty similar. I assume it'll be most like the Arcanas in Arcana Heart where it will likely be a variety of ones are best for a character, but some that are clearly top.

    Isn't N the current best groove now in Japan? That just goes to show that time and extended play can shift what gems are considered best. It's another layer to the meta we'll have to keep our eye on. It might be a case of where a stone may be the 2nd or 3rd best for a character, but happens to be so for a specific set of characters that whrn teamed up become really good.

    Might be. I haven't followed competitive CVS2 since SFIV came out. It's funny cuz a lot of the recent acho vids I've watched of the game, N groove still didn't seem to be played that often.

    Wouldn't surprise me though as people have probably optimized offense with that groove. US was always complacent with just kinda playing defensively with the tried and true grooves while the Ohnuki rushdown was solid, but not considered as powerful. Wonder what other reasons are for that placement.



    Yeah it's like how Doom rocks makes Strider near top tier or missiles make Morrigan top tier, but you can't just give Cable rocks to make him as gdlk as he is with an AA assist or give Wolverine missiles as an optimal assist.

    It gets more complicated with Marvel as since anything can be an assist it's likely that there will be characters that are only at their toppest tier when paired with a certain other character's tag options. Which would force the meta where the player would have to play that character and use that special tag to get the assist necessary to make them be optimal. Which would be very tough to balance as you can't just like Marvel 2/3 pick 2 characters and then use that other guy as an assist. If that one character provides an assist on tag that's gdlk for that character, you're going to pretty much have to play that character with that character and every other pairing will be unable to access that tool.

    Especially since absolutely everything is open to assist via the tag option, it's likely things that aren't normally selected as assists suddenly become gdlk options or there may be a specific 3 or 4 special moves that a character has that just really assist another character in a way that no other character can. Your 2 characters essentially give you access to what could literally be dozens and dozens of "assists". If any of those combinations start getting too OP over what the other combinations can do, then you get a huge meta shift that will be tough to surpass or counter.

    It's going to get really really complicated and then combine that with the stones and we'll get taken for a ride for sure.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • killthevibekillthevibe i'm a marvel/dbz player now Joined: Posts: 661
    ATmZEuo.gif

    Million Dollars looks so...basic when you see stuff like this.

    With the amount of stuff he has, I could see Dante being on a lot of teams early on.

    idk i feel like all this type of shit is going to be auto blocked. everything ive heard so far makes it sound like the auto block is really expansive in this game
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,692
    YawDan wrote: »
    @YawDan

    I'll still hit you. :)

    I meant that I've got to take your b.s now, when I could just chicken guard it in 3.

    Then again... I don't like this game, and I live across the street- I really don't

    It's gonna be a fun time buddy.

    And remember my number one rule:

    Kill Cap and I win. Simples. :)
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,124 mod
    edited August 12
    YawDan wrote: »
    @YawDan

    I'll still hit you. :)

    I meant that I've got to take your b.s now, when I could just chicken guard it in 3.

    Then again... I don't like this game, and I live across the street- I really don't
    You really just have to take what @Dime says about these kinds of games to heart - "blocking is death".
    d3v wrote: »
    It'll take time to see which stone is the strongest tier wise. If it's like Alpha 3 Ism there will be one stone that's clearly better than the rest. If it's like CVS2 there will be 2 or 3 stones that are top tier over the others, but the other will still have characters that are arguably the strongest in one of the others. Like how Cammy was arguably best in P groove even though she'd have to be in a groove that's not 100 percent optimal for other top tiers to get that power. N groove Morrigan was pretty similar. I assume it'll be most like the Arcanas in Arcana Heart where it will likely be a variety of ones are best for a character, but some that are clearly top.

    Isn't N the current best groove now in Japan? That just goes to show that time and extended play can shift what gems are considered best. It's another layer to the meta we'll have to keep our eye on. It might be a case of where a stone may be the 2nd or 3rd best for a character, but happens to be so for a specific set of characters that whrn teamed up become really good.

    Might be. I haven't followed competitive CVS2 since SFIV came out. It's funny cuz a lot of the recent acho vids I've watched of the game, N groove still didn't seem to be played that often.

    Wouldn't surprise me though as people have probably optimized offense with that groove. US was always complacent with just kinda playing defensively with the tried and true grooves while the Ohnuki rushdown was solid, but not considered as powerful. Wonder what other reasons are for that placement.



    Yeah it's like how Doom rocks makes Strider near top tier or missiles make Morrigan top tier, but you can't just give Cable rocks to make him as gdlk as he is with an AA assist or give Wolverine missiles as an optimal assist.

    It gets more complicated with Marvel as since anything can be an assist it's likely that there will be characters that are only at their toppest tier when paired with a certain other character's tag options. Which would force the meta where the player would have to play that character and use that special tag to get the assist necessary to make them be optimal. Which would be very tough to balance as you can't just like Marvel 2/3 pick 2 characters and then use that other guy as an assist. If that one character provides an assist on tag that's gdlk for that character, you're going to pretty much have to play that character with that character and every other pairing will be unable to access that tool.

    Especially since absolutely everything is open to assist via the tag option, it's likely things that aren't normally selected as assists suddenly become gdlk options or there may be a specific 3 or 4 special moves that a character has that just really assist another character in a way that no other character can. Your 2 characters essentially give you access to what could literally be dozens and dozens of "assists". If any of those combinations start getting too OP over what the other combinations can do, then you get a huge meta shift that will be tough to surpass or counter.

    It's going to get really really complicated and then combine that with the stones and we'll get taken for a ride for sure.

    StriderDoom is the poster team for theory best in the game (aside from Dhalsim and his theory infinites that would make him top tier if people could actually hit them). Same boat as N Blanka/Chun-Li/Sagat was for awhile in CvS2 before the Japanese started pushing that groove. Makes me excited for how MvC:I develops with how everyone is looking viable. Maybe this time, we'll actually be able to see the theory teams developed. I believe UMvC3 almost had it with people figuring stuff out, just a bit too late in its life (also, some of the theory in that game is scary, e.g. theory Morrigan looking even more busted than current Morrigan).
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 874
    edited August 12
    ATmZEuo.gif

    Million Dollars looks so...basic when you see stuff like this.

    With the amount of stuff he has, I could see Dante being on a lot of teams early on.

    idk i feel like all this type of shit is going to be auto blocked. everything ive heard so far makes it sound like the auto block is really expansive in this game

    Hmm that got me thinking, what happens if you pushblock the point character at the same time they switch?

    Remember though we don't have chicken guard anymore.
  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,781
    - Long lockdown moves not that good for everyone because of autoblock
    - Zoning less effective because of less chip

    It will be interesting. It appears you'll have to tag before your move comes out to really have hard to blockables, but since you won't have something to cover your stuff (it appears tagging when they're blocking thakes a really long time for the tag to cooldown, so covering your assist so he can do something to cover you will be hard), if they call it, you can get happy birthday'd.
    I'm really interested to see some different builds doing work, and I really hope the "creativity" isn't just a meme.
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 874
    willseless wrote: »
    - Long lockdown moves not that good for everyone because of autoblock
    - Zoning less effective because of less chip

    It will be interesting. It appears you'll have to tag before your move comes out to really have hard to blockables, but since you won't have something to cover your stuff (it appears tagging when they're blocking thakes a really long time for the tag to cooldown, so covering your assist so he can do something to cover you will be hard), if they call it, you can get happy birthday'd.
    I'm really interested to see some different builds doing work, and I really hope the "creativity" isn't just a meme.

    Not to go all teacher mode on you, but just to point something out for those that don't know. There's a difference between zoning and keepaway, zoning will still be effective because the purpose of zoning is to narrow down your opponents options and encourage them into an unfavourable position, so block damage doesn't really matter where zoning is concerned as that's more about screen control and positioning. Keepaway is aimed at specifically keeping your opponent away from you and this is where chip damage is effective, as you have no goal other than to keep them away from you for as long as possible. The two do go hand in hand and you can move from one strategy to the other, but there is a big difference between the two, and the lack of chip damage will definitely discourage keepaway tactics.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    flicky wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    - Long lockdown moves not that good for everyone because of autoblock
    - Zoning less effective because of less chip

    It will be interesting. It appears you'll have to tag before your move comes out to really have hard to blockables, but since you won't have something to cover your stuff (it appears tagging when they're blocking thakes a really long time for the tag to cooldown, so covering your assist so he can do something to cover you will be hard), if they call it, you can get happy birthday'd.
    I'm really interested to see some different builds doing work, and I really hope the "creativity" isn't just a meme.

    Not to go all teacher mode on you.

    There's actually a difference between zoning, keepaway and runaway. Most already know this. But I would be remiss not to mention it:


    Zoning = trying to keep the opponent in an unfavorable screen position relative to yours. Usually done from midrange aka footsie range.

    Keepaway = standing your ground and keeping the opponent from advancing in on you. This is actually very hard to accomplish outside of broken games, but the distinction needs to be made so that the difference between keepaway and runaway can be explained.

    Runaway = using your movement, primarily backwards movement and crossup/crossunder movement, to maintain distance from the opponent.

    Most "keepaway" in the new school takes the form of runaway.

    Keepaway tends to be higher damage, big on chip, and has lots of moves dedicated to shutting down approach options in a very strong linear fashion.

    Runaway tends to be lower damage because of the inability to attack while running away.
    There are of course characters that get around that issue... it's usually characters that can jump backwards and throw out some form of air coverage like morrigan soul fists or akuma air fireball etc etc.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • killthevibekillthevibe i'm a marvel/dbz player now Joined: Posts: 661
    willseless wrote: »
    - Long lockdown moves not that good for everyone because of autoblock
    - Zoning less effective because of less chip

    It will be interesting. It appears you'll have to tag before your move comes out to really have hard to blockables, but since you won't have something to cover your stuff (it appears tagging when they're blocking thakes a really long time for the tag to cooldown, so covering your assist so he can do something to cover you will be hard), if they call it, you can get happy birthday'd.
    I'm really interested to see some different builds doing work, and I really hope the "creativity" isn't just a meme.

    yes this is my worry that the autoblock makes all the theoretical mixups useless
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    I don't know how the autoblock works in mvci, but it seems to have some component of what skullgirls has. SG also has autoblock, but you have to get it via a pushblock into blocking switch. Still though, it invalidated a lot of my earlier skullgirls mixup that were based around lockdown assist into high low mixup.

    So the game came to be played more along the lines of baiting pushblocks and using throws, and using invincible assists to hit your opponent into a confirm. It seems like throws and assists have been nerfed so... it will be interesting to see how the mixups work. It may well be that the tag crossup actually becomes the main line linear mixup, like tick throwing is in oldschool streetfighter games.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,889
    I'm curious at to what trapping strategies will be implemented, but considering chip is a bit wierd will it be even viable?
  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,781
    "- Unblockable Protection/Auto blocking. The game wants to allow you to do cheap things, but it doesn't want to give you quite the room to just faceroll into mix ups like in Marvel 3. You can no longer chain an overhead attack and a low assist on the same frame and get a true unblockable. That now triggers a block stun and stops the unblockable. Can still create a small gap to create a hard to blockable. Can no longer create nearly unblockable mix ups with super/THC style lockdowns. Supers and multi hitting attacks force an auto block until the block stun ends. Luckily since there is no early frame chicken blocking you basically get a free mix up once the block stun ends."

    I thought that already happened when you're in blockstun, that's why I thought Million Dollars>tag wouldn't be THAT strong outside of giving enough time to your other character to set up his own shit.
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 874
    Dime wrote: »
    flicky wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    - Long lockdown moves not that good for everyone because of autoblock
    - Zoning less effective because of less chip

    It will be interesting. It appears you'll have to tag before your move comes out to really have hard to blockables, but since you won't have something to cover your stuff (it appears tagging when they're blocking thakes a really long time for the tag to cooldown, so covering your assist so he can do something to cover you will be hard), if they call it, you can get happy birthday'd.
    I'm really interested to see some different builds doing work, and I really hope the "creativity" isn't just a meme.

    Not to go all teacher mode on you.

    There's actually a difference between zoning, keepaway and runaway. Most already know this. But I would be remiss not to mention it:


    Zoning = trying to keep the opponent in an unfavorable screen position relative to yours. Usually done from midrange aka footsie range.

    Keepaway = standing your ground and keeping the opponent from advancing in on you. This is actually very hard to accomplish outside of broken games, but the distinction needs to be made so that the difference between keepaway and runaway can be explained.

    Runaway = using your movement, primarily backwards movement and crossup/crossunder movement, to maintain distance from the opponent.

    Most "keepaway" in the new school takes the form of runaway.

    Keepaway tends to be higher damage, big on chip, and has lots of moves dedicated to shutting down approach options in a very strong linear fashion.

    Runaway tends to be lower damage because of the inability to attack while running away.
    There are of course characters that get around that issue... it's usually characters that can jump backwards and throw out some form of air coverage like morrigan soul fists or akuma air fireball etc etc.

    For sure runaway plays a part in it too, but the reason I omitted it is because it doesn't have such a defined tactic in MvC3 as zoning for example. One can play runaway and keepaway at the same time, using their mobility but also their space control to stay out of reach. But Storm runaway in MvC2 was drastically different, which was literally to super jump air dash up to the very top of the screen, float, land and repeat. Unlike keepaway runaway consisted mostly of no contact with the opponent at all besides blocking, and was used primarily as a means of gaining meter by Ha!Ha!'ing up and down the screen with hp air dash cancelling to gain not only meter but more y momentum. Lockdown is the fourth corner of this strategic relationship.

    Coming from MvC2 I just consider runaway to be less of a factor in MvC3 and something used intermediate to everything else, for example Wesker plink dashing across the screen, a better example would be Chun-Li triple jumping, using up kick and lighting legs to stay high up in the screen for long periods of time, just without the benefit of whiffed meter gain.

    How this will pan out in Infinite I have yet to think about.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,124 mod
    I think it's pretty obvious that pure runaway is something devs in general don't want to happen for the most part.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    Spiderman was pretty good at runaway with his movement. He was definitely the closest to A2 Rolento in Marvel 3. MODOKs ability to fly to the top of the screen for an enormously long amount of time to burn out supers and XFs was a decent form of runaway also.


    In general games just have too many mechanics that work against runaway and keep away. Negative penalties, light chip and no meter for whiffing really hurt

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    I'm curious at to what trapping strategies will be implemented, but considering chip is a bit wierd will it be even viable?

    Chip isn't the only threat of a trap (or lockdown) there is also the fact that the opponent is gaining meter while locking you down, and the fact that if you are simply blocking, you can't do any damage... so you need to break out somewhere and when you try to break out is were you take damage.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,124 mod
    edited August 13
    Half the point of a trap is to make them try to stop blocking and do something else, wherein they eat all the damage. This is how it's been since SFII Ryu's corner trap where you made your opponent try to jump out of the fireball pattern to get hit with a DP.

    MvC2 in general just has the extreme versions of things. Extreme runaway with Storm, and extreme trapping with tons of chip using teams like Spiral/Sent, Blackheart/Doom, etc.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    edited August 13
    Yeah, people are getting trap and lockdown and chip strats confused. Strider doom was a lockdown with chip... but it didn't need chip to function, it just made it better, much better.

    Traps tend to be lockdowns with forced gaps, but the gaps can be put in different places so that the breakout point is more easily disguised and the opponent flails into the trap and gets punished.


    In the NFL there is a play known as a trap. It's generally where an offensive lineman backs off and covers a different part of the field other than play against the defensive player he is usually assigned to. This creates a gap that the defensive lineman can run through and get perfect access to the quarterback. The defensive lineman sees this opportunity and then runs straight through the gap... only to be trapped by a different offensive lineman coming from another direction and plowing the hapless defensive lineman through and creating a gap for the running back to easily get through.

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,889
    Maybe so, but the chip of MvC2 traps made the trap so much better. Speaking from a pure to form Spiral/Sent player.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    edited August 13
    Something I just saw with Morrigan in the new Tyrant video that's really interesting.

    If you're using another character and hit someone with a multi hit super, you can just tag in Morrigan during the super and land a free harmonious spear on them. Basically meaning if Morrigan is on your team the opponent pretty much has to take a debuff everytime they get comboed into super. With Chun Li's super you have enough time to hit them with the spear and then fireball them for some meter.

    Shit I'll be able to set up in time storm with this will be nasty. You land one super with the other character in the storm, tag them with one spear and then try to land as many fireballs as you can before they pop out.


    EDIT: After looking at the combo again it seems that there is some sort of scaling on the meter gain if you do it during a combo. Normally you get 25 percent of a bar per harmonious fireball, but it looks scaled below. You can tell the status is in effect because Morrigan flashes green whenever she lands a harmonious buffed fireball.


    I also noticed that it seemed as soon as Dante hit Morrigan the debuff went away. Which is weird because I figured in the video they suggested you had to tag to get rid of it. Balance wise it makes sense though if that's how it actually works. Otherwise if an opponent is down to one character they would be screwed with zero way to remove the buff.

    lOzQwV.gif
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • GhostTearGhostTear Vanessa for MVCI! Joined: Posts: 2,752
    Do we know how many frames of invincibility stones have when used? I feel this is going to be so strong.
    THE SOUL STILL FUCKING BURRRRRRNNNSSSSSS!!!!
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,124 mod
    GhostTear wrote: »
    Do we know how many frames of invincibility stones have when used? I feel this is going to be so strong.

    Storm or surge. For the latter, we've seen a raw tag beat out the Power Stone's surge.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    edited August 13
    He's most likely talking about Infinity Storm activations.

    This is the latest info Olaf has on the storms


    Infinity Stones
    Full Clarity:
    Tag + Stone button activates your Infinity Storm, based on the Stone Gauge. Must be half-full or more to activate (like Ultras in SF4)

    Startup of Storm is very slow, but very invulnerable.

    By pressing the activation again (tag + Stone) while in the storm, your storm will be canceled, the entire gauge is consumed, and you will perform your level 3 super. With no super meter consumption.

    Some characters, especially characters with Throw level 3s, can activate versus opponents approach, use invul to avoid damage, then immediately pop it for level3 using that invul, and punish anything too mash happy or too slow to deal.

    Infinity Surge is treated as a special move; normals can cancel into surge
    Infinity Storm Is treated as a Super Move; you can cancel from a special into Storm.
    Storm can (apparently) be done as a guard cancel.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • GhostTearGhostTear Vanessa for MVCI! Joined: Posts: 2,752
    Whoops my bad I'm talking about surge. But after reading deviljins post i guess i'm referring to storm. I have seen videos of characters having attacks pass by them when they use it. It looks like a ghetto dodge that you can punish right after. i really like this a lot. i could test if surge does this with the demo i guess
    THE SOUL STILL FUCKING BURRRRRRNNNSSSSSS!!!!
  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,349
    Oh damn, you can cancel specials into storm activation? I have to main Haggar now.
    tfw Zero's about to do some anime shit but you Lariat him out of it into a full combo
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab

    DRzQRq.gif



    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    True, but you gotta remember, this is a command grab on non command grab characters. People are going to be trying to block that fuzzy guard overhead crossup... and bam, get grabbed.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,894 mod
    edited August 14
    Dime wrote: »
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    True, but you gotta remember, this is a command grab on non command grab characters. People are going to be trying to block that fuzzy guard overhead crossup... and bam, get grabbed.

    Right, it's just the command grab has a very clear indicator that it's about to start. Something I feel top level players will just easily react and jump out of regardless of what fuzzy mess is around them. If the gameplan is to look for fuzzy stuff then jump if see Dante doing a pose with a yellow gem in his hand, that's not going to be very hard to do in the long run.

    I think it'd be better off with less range and an unreactable start up than where it is right now. It reminds me of Omen's 99 percent damage grab super in KI where yeah 99 percent white life it scary, but it's like 26 frame start up or something crazy and he does a very obvious pose. Meaning no matter what he's setting you up with, you simply button or jump out on reaction to the pose.

    If there's no invincibility or armor on the grab then you'll likely see people just jabbing it out also.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,067
    Dime wrote: »
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    True, but you gotta remember, this is a command grab on non command grab characters. People are going to be trying to block that fuzzy guard overhead crossup... and bam, get grabbed.

    Right, it's just the command grab has a very clear indicator that it's about to start. Something I feel top level players will just easily react and jump out of regardless of what fuzzy mess is around them. If the gameplan is to look for fuzzy stuff then jump if see Dante doing a pose with a yellow gem in his hand, that's not going to be very hard to do in the long run.

    I think it'd be better off with less range and an unreactable start up than where it is right now. It reminds me of Omen's 99 percent damage grab super in KI where yeah 99 percent white life it scary, but it's like 26 frame start up or something crazy and he does a very obvious pose. Meaning no matter what he's setting you up with, you simply button or jump out on reaction to the pose.

    If there's no invincibility or armor on the grab then you'll likely see people just jabbing it out also.

    Yeah it depends. In faster games things that are slow still work very well. Like in skullgirls parasouls overhead is 21 frames but even sonicfox and co don't block that shit on reaction... to much white noise... and parasol is a character that is one of the least marvelish of the cast... but she has really good multihitting lowas as well... so idk if people will be reacting that easily. In streetfighter there's a big ding ding ding hey a mixup is coming whenever someone sees something not happening... in marvel that tell is less easy to distinguish because of the nature of the game... but only time will tell.
    Gettin' my derp on.
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