MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

13

Comments

  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,313
    "- Unblockable Protection/Auto blocking. The game wants to allow you to do cheap things, but it doesn't want to give you quite the room to just faceroll into mix ups like in Marvel 3. You can no longer chain an overhead attack and a low assist on the same frame and get a true unblockable. That now triggers a block stun and stops the unblockable. Can still create a small gap to create a hard to blockable. Can no longer create nearly unblockable mix ups with super/THC style lockdowns. Supers and multi hitting attacks force an auto block until the block stun ends. Luckily since there is no early frame chicken blocking you basically get a free mix up once the block stun ends."

    I thought that already happened when you're in blockstun, that's why I thought Million Dollars>tag wouldn't be THAT strong outside of giving enough time to your other character to set up his own shit.
  • flickyflicky Joined: Posts: 478
    Dime wrote: »
    flicky wrote: »
    willseless wrote: »
    - Long lockdown moves not that good for everyone because of autoblock
    - Zoning less effective because of less chip

    It will be interesting. It appears you'll have to tag before your move comes out to really have hard to blockables, but since you won't have something to cover your stuff (it appears tagging when they're blocking thakes a really long time for the tag to cooldown, so covering your assist so he can do something to cover you will be hard), if they call it, you can get happy birthday'd.
    I'm really interested to see some different builds doing work, and I really hope the "creativity" isn't just a meme.

    Not to go all teacher mode on you.

    There's actually a difference between zoning, keepaway and runaway. Most already know this. But I would be remiss not to mention it:


    Zoning = trying to keep the opponent in an unfavorable screen position relative to yours. Usually done from midrange aka footsie range.

    Keepaway = standing your ground and keeping the opponent from advancing in on you. This is actually very hard to accomplish outside of broken games, but the distinction needs to be made so that the difference between keepaway and runaway can be explained.

    Runaway = using your movement, primarily backwards movement and crossup/crossunder movement, to maintain distance from the opponent.

    Most "keepaway" in the new school takes the form of runaway.

    Keepaway tends to be higher damage, big on chip, and has lots of moves dedicated to shutting down approach options in a very strong linear fashion.

    Runaway tends to be lower damage because of the inability to attack while running away.
    There are of course characters that get around that issue... it's usually characters that can jump backwards and throw out some form of air coverage like morrigan soul fists or akuma air fireball etc etc.

    For sure runaway plays a part in it too, but the reason I omitted it is because it doesn't have such a defined tactic in MvC3 as zoning for example. One can play runaway and keepaway at the same time, using their mobility but also their space control to stay out of reach. But Storm runaway in MvC2 was drastically different, which was literally to super jump air dash up to the very top of the screen, float, land and repeat. Unlike keepaway runaway consisted mostly of no contact with the opponent at all besides blocking, and was used primarily as a means of gaining meter by Ha!Ha!'ing up and down the screen with hp air dash cancelling to gain not only meter but more y momentum. Lockdown is the fourth corner of this strategic relationship.

    Coming from MvC2 I just consider runaway to be less of a factor in MvC3 and something used intermediate to everything else, for example Wesker plink dashing across the screen, a better example would be Chun-Li triple jumping, using up kick and lighting legs to stay high up in the screen for long periods of time, just without the benefit of whiffed meter gain.

    How this will pan out in Infinite I have yet to think about.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,050 mod
    I think it's pretty obvious that pure runaway is something devs in general don't want to happen for the most part.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Spiderman was pretty good at runaway with his movement. He was definitely the closest to A2 Rolento in Marvel 3. MODOKs ability to fly to the top of the screen for an enormously long amount of time to burn out supers and XFs was a decent form of runaway also.


    In general games just have too many mechanics that work against runaway and keep away. Negative penalties, light chip and no meter for whiffing really hurt

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    I'm curious at to what trapping strategies will be implemented, but considering chip is a bit wierd will it be even viable?

    Chip isn't the only threat of a trap (or lockdown) there is also the fact that the opponent is gaining meter while locking you down, and the fact that if you are simply blocking, you can't do any damage... so you need to break out somewhere and when you try to break out is were you take damage.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,050 mod
    edited August 13
    Half the point of a trap is to make them try to stop blocking and do something else, wherein they eat all the damage. This is how it's been since SFII Ryu's corner trap where you made your opponent try to jump out of the fireball pattern to get hit with a DP.

    MvC2 in general just has the extreme versions of things. Extreme runaway with Storm, and extreme trapping with tons of chip using teams like Spiral/Sent, Blackheart/Doom, etc.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    edited August 13
    Yeah, people are getting trap and lockdown and chip strats confused. Strider doom was a lockdown with chip... but it didn't need chip to function, it just made it better, much better.

    Traps tend to be lockdowns with forced gaps, but the gaps can be put in different places so that the breakout point is more easily disguised and the opponent flails into the trap and gets punished.


    In the NFL there is a play known as a trap. It's generally where an offensive lineman backs off and covers a different part of the field other than play against the defensive player he is usually assigned to. This creates a gap that the defensive lineman can run through and get perfect access to the quarterback. The defensive lineman sees this opportunity and then runs straight through the gap... only to be trapped by a different offensive lineman coming from another direction and plowing the hapless defensive lineman through and creating a gap for the running back to easily get through.

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,159
    Maybe so, but the chip of MvC2 traps made the trap so much better. Speaking from a pure to form Spiral/Sent player.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 13
    Something I just saw with Morrigan in the new Tyrant video that's really interesting.

    If you're using another character and hit someone with a multi hit super, you can just tag in Morrigan during the super and land a free harmonious spear on them. Basically meaning if Morrigan is on your team the opponent pretty much has to take a debuff everytime they get comboed into super. With Chun Li's super you have enough time to hit them with the spear and then fireball them for some meter.

    Shit I'll be able to set up in time storm with this will be nasty. You land one super with the other character in the storm, tag them with one spear and then try to land as many fireballs as you can before they pop out.


    EDIT: After looking at the combo again it seems that there is some sort of scaling on the meter gain if you do it during a combo. Normally you get 25 percent of a bar per harmonious fireball, but it looks scaled below. You can tell the status is in effect because Morrigan flashes green whenever she lands a harmonious buffed fireball.


    I also noticed that it seemed as soon as Dante hit Morrigan the debuff went away. Which is weird because I figured in the video they suggested you had to tag to get rid of it. Balance wise it makes sense though if that's how it actually works. Otherwise if an opponent is down to one character they would be screwed with zero way to remove the buff.

    lOzQwV.gif
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • GhostTearGhostTear Abyss Walker Joined: Posts: 2,026
    Do we know how many frames of invincibility stones have when used? I feel this is going to be so strong.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,050 mod
    GhostTear wrote: »
    Do we know how many frames of invincibility stones have when used? I feel this is going to be so strong.

    Storm or surge. For the latter, we've seen a raw tag beat out the Power Stone's surge.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 13
    He's most likely talking about Infinity Storm activations.

    This is the latest info Olaf has on the storms


    Infinity Stones
    Full Clarity:
    Tag + Stone button activates your Infinity Storm, based on the Stone Gauge. Must be half-full or more to activate (like Ultras in SF4)

    Startup of Storm is very slow, but very invulnerable.

    By pressing the activation again (tag + Stone) while in the storm, your storm will be canceled, the entire gauge is consumed, and you will perform your level 3 super. With no super meter consumption.

    Some characters, especially characters with Throw level 3s, can activate versus opponents approach, use invul to avoid damage, then immediately pop it for level3 using that invul, and punish anything too mash happy or too slow to deal.

    Infinity Surge is treated as a special move; normals can cancel into surge
    Infinity Storm Is treated as a Super Move; you can cancel from a special into Storm.
    Storm can (apparently) be done as a guard cancel.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • GhostTearGhostTear Abyss Walker Joined: Posts: 2,026
    Whoops my bad I'm talking about surge. But after reading deviljins post i guess i'm referring to storm. I have seen videos of characters having attacks pass by them when they use it. It looks like a ghetto dodge that you can punish right after. i really like this a lot. i could test if surge does this with the demo i guess
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Remember me now, Yipes? Joined: Posts: 7,471
    Oh damn, you can cancel specials into storm activation? I have to main Haggar now.
    tfw Zero's about to do some anime shit but you Lariat him out of it into a full combo
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab

    DRzQRq.gif



    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    True, but you gotta remember, this is a command grab on non command grab characters. People are going to be trying to block that fuzzy guard overhead crossup... and bam, get grabbed.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 14
    Dime wrote: »
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    True, but you gotta remember, this is a command grab on non command grab characters. People are going to be trying to block that fuzzy guard overhead crossup... and bam, get grabbed.

    Right, it's just the command grab has a very clear indicator that it's about to start. Something I feel top level players will just easily react and jump out of regardless of what fuzzy mess is around them. If the gameplan is to look for fuzzy stuff then jump if see Dante doing a pose with a yellow gem in his hand, that's not going to be very hard to do in the long run.

    I think it'd be better off with less range and an unreactable start up than where it is right now. It reminds me of Omen's 99 percent damage grab super in KI where yeah 99 percent white life it scary, but it's like 26 frame start up or something crazy and he does a very obvious pose. Meaning no matter what he's setting you up with, you simply button or jump out on reaction to the pose.

    If there's no invincibility or armor on the grab then you'll likely see people just jabbing it out also.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    Dime wrote: »
    Dime wrote: »
    Another frame of reference for the range of the mind stone command grab




    The range doesn't seem too bad, bigger issue seems to be the terribly slow start up. They do a pose pre activation that seems to be almost visible to react and jump out of. Meaning the opponent has to really condition you to get hit by this. Then the scaling is so bad at (especially at low health) that a raw level 3 still didn't kill

    It's obviously a setup for a reset. It dizzies and gives you a day to setup whatever you want.

    That's what I figure top level use of it will be for. I assume waiting until the dizzy state is just about to leave so you can beat the scaling. The long start up is going to require a lot of conditioning to land though. In a game where people are going to be gunning to react to so many things as it is.

    True, but you gotta remember, this is a command grab on non command grab characters. People are going to be trying to block that fuzzy guard overhead crossup... and bam, get grabbed.

    Right, it's just the command grab has a very clear indicator that it's about to start. Something I feel top level players will just easily react and jump out of regardless of what fuzzy mess is around them. If the gameplan is to look for fuzzy stuff then jump if see Dante doing a pose with a yellow gem in his hand, that's not going to be very hard to do in the long run.

    I think it'd be better off with less range and an unreactable start up than where it is right now. It reminds me of Omen's 99 percent damage grab super in KI where yeah 99 percent white life it scary, but it's like 26 frame start up or something crazy and he does a very obvious pose. Meaning no matter what he's setting you up with, you simply button or jump out on reaction to the pose.

    If there's no invincibility or armor on the grab then you'll likely see people just jabbing it out also.

    Yeah it depends. In faster games things that are slow still work very well. Like in skullgirls parasouls overhead is 21 frames but even sonicfox and co don't block that shit on reaction... to much white noise... and parasol is a character that is one of the least marvelish of the cast... but she has really good multihitting lowas as well... so idk if people will be reacting that easily. In streetfighter there's a big ding ding ding hey a mixup is coming whenever someone sees something not happening... in marvel that tell is less easy to distinguish because of the nature of the game... but only time will tell.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 14
    In Marvel there's more of a push to react to things that are possible to react to because you're not just put in a bad situation, you can be put in VERY bad situations or be dead. This looks easier to react to than even say Laura's EX grab in SFV. With that grab you pretty much have to be focusing on nothing but the grab as if you see the EX flash she's probably already grabbed you.


    I slowed the video down and with how much movement Thanos was able to do before he got grabbed (walked a bit, crouched and started to stand back up) before the grab actually started, looks like you're going to have to have something really nasty to get actually get it going. Ideally you'll want something like a tag scenario where you throw out something that can trap them like a 2 hitting fireball that's spaced out so there's a gap, but if they try to hit a button they get hit. I can't imagine too much basic pressure type things setting up this grab well. This looks like something where you can see the yellow gem and still jump or jab out.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    In Marvel there's more of a push to react to things that are possible to react to because you're not just put in a bad situation, you can be put in VERY bad situations or be dead. This looks easier to react to than even say Laura's EX grab in SFV. With that grab you pretty much have to be focusing on nothing but the grab as if you see the EX flash she's probably already grabbed you.


    I slowed the video down and with how much movement Thanos was able to do before he got grabbed (walked a bit, crouched and started to stand back up) before the grab actually started, looks like you're going to have to have something really nasty to get actually get it going. Ideally you'll want something like a tag scenario where you throw out something that can trap them like a 2 hitting fireball that's spaced out so there's a gap, but if they try to hit a button they get hit. I can't imagine too much basic pressure type things setting up this grab well.


    We don't really know how the game will pan out just yet, coming from sg I can already think of ways to set it up... like doing a move with big hitstun on the ground or a jump attack... then doing the command grab and tagging into your homie... you jump out of the command grab you get hit by the tagging homies normals as you are going up... or you do the command grab and then the tagging homie comes in and airthrows you as you jump... or frame traps your jumpout etc etc

    You can probably just run up and do the command grab and immediately tag and bam you've got a scenario where your chicken block is fucked etc etc

    If the command grab is cancelable into then that's going to be even more rigged. You'll be able to do a normal and then cancel into command grab, the command grab has big startup so it will hit as you come out of hitstun... so you have to jump and can't interrupt with a jab... but the tagged in homie gets to wreck you.

    There's also the good ol unblockable ground command grab into air command grab... always fun... Mike z had to nerf this in skullgirls..
    Let's see how it pans out in mvci.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 14
    Yeah it's going to require things that put you in bad situations if you jump the grab since being able to jump or jab out the grab seems very likely if done raw. The threat of the grab will likely create more bad things than the grab itself. If that ends up how it works. Mind stone players are going to have to do a lot of conditioning to keep people on the ground as everyone will just treat you like you're a Zangief player as soon as they see you choose the yellow stone.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    The threat of the grab will likely create more bad things than the grab itself.

    Naturally. Grabs have never been top tier. It's the shit they set you up for that's the problem.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 14
    Dime wrote: »
    The threat of the grab will likely create more bad things than the grab itself.

    Naturally. Grabs have never been top tier. It's the shit they set you up for that's the problem.

    True. It's just even if you theoretically say that the issues you get into trying to escape the grab are scary, the grab itself seems to require a lot of work make optimal. You have to


    1. Hope the opponent sits long and doesn't jab out your grab to grab them.
    2. Wait for a long stun to pass by as they get up giving them days to think about what you might do
    3. Land that set up right at the point that they come out of dizzy so you can get something that land without scaling.


    I don't think any of the other stone surges are going to require that much work to make effective or get a real basic use out of. Especially considering the stone surges build you extra stone gauge on activation. Which puts an onus on using them often like V Skills so you can get bar for playing well and not just getting beat up. Just as a step up from V Skills you also get bar for whiffing them. Which makes surges the only thing in a fighting game in a while that gives you bar for whiffing it that isn't strictly a projectile.

    The other surges generally seem more practical for application. Power surge gives you a nice defensive hit box if people get near you which you can even whiff in neutral to get gauge. Time gives you a generically far traveling movement tool that's most likely stronger with tag setups that will also give you gauge on every use. Space surge just sounds good on paper with the armor and the ability to pull your opponent into the armor. Reality surge seems to have really good utility plus also builds gauge for whiffing and you can switch to your partner to whiff a second one. Not sure if it builds any faster or slower than the other surges, but for something that controls space that's really strong. The slow traveling fireball basically guarantees you have some type of "assist" even if you're down to one character.

    Mind surge in comparison sounds like a lot more work to reap benefits for. Luckily like what was said by @Zachara in the lounge, Mind will likely be a stone where you activate the storm on half bar/minimum activation so you can just get to 4 bars as quickly as possible.
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,507
    Meaty grab on incoming? Also, do we know if it grabs players already blocking?
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • flickyflicky Joined: Posts: 478
    edited August 14
    There's nothing stopping people creating Mind Surge setups, we'll have to see how many pre jump frames there is, but it could be as simple as putting them into a reset and they just fall into the command grab. To be honest it's being fair making Mind Surge so telegraphed as it's a ridiculously powerful concept, imagine it being SPD type strong, it would be broken as fuck, Nova trujumps on your face, SPD into dizzy, let your imagination go wild. I think there will end up situations where people either have to choose between staying on the ground to block or attempting to upback away from a command grab, there's already potential for a 50/50 right there with the removal of chicken guard. It might be more the fear factor of being on the ground that forces players to attempt to spend more time in the air, which eventually will get them punished one way or another.
  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,313
    What about mind surge>tag>jump forward air command grab/Nemesis AA command grab? Or even mind surge>tag>jump forward>mind surge to have a reality surge situation.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Might as well do a potential list for the Stone surges and storms as well.

    This just factors overall potential and doesn't really account for individual characters with a stone. There's like a team that could be OD with power stone even if it's not the strongest overall stone.


    Power Stone

    Surge: Looks like it'll have a lot of good applications. Like all the surges it builds stone meter on whiff and being able to build meter with a seemingly high priority (though somewhat lengthy recovery) hit box doesn't seem too bad. Adds wall bounce to your combos and generally seems useful for most of the cast. Definitely will be one of the best surges for building meter for your storm.

    Storm: Power's storm will likely take some time to maximize in gameplay, but I believe it's secretly more threatening than people realize. Especially with it negating pushback from pushblock. Rushdown and grappler characters are going to be able to stay in once they get in with that stone. Other than finding some gap and flying away you are screwed just by how Marvel's offense just becomes extremely one sided if you don't have pushblock pushing the strings out. At that point it's like Guilty Gear with no FDC or insta blocking. The storm has a lot of utility within combos and will most likely create some of the most damaging combos in the game. Plus zoning characters will likely be able to create stronger zoning patterns or ones that set up rushdown well with tag ins as there's no pushback on the pushblock. Plus stronger long range projectile combos for characters like Arthur and Hawkeye.


    Time Stone

    Time Surge: Generically builds meter on whiff which is good. Will most likely requite attack/tag coverage to make safe as although it travels ridiculously fast, it only shoots you forward in one direction and seems to have lengthy recovery after whiffing. If people find ways to make this relatively safe or create setups then it'll likely be good for neutral and building stone gauge. I'm sure teleportxxtag will cause a lot of day 1 shenanigans. Plus characters like Hulk and Hawkeye suddenly being able to get in on you could be potentially scary. Hawkeye going nuts with zoning then suddenly he teleports in your face for pressure.




    Storm: Definitely seems to be one of the strongest storms on paper. Zero recovery on attacks and specials basically makes it work like an Alpha custom combo mode in Marvel. Which is really cheap as a lot of fireballs will become extremely dangerous in the storm. Morrigan will likely go back to UMVC3 levels of spam or worse now that she will have fireballs that recover so fast that she can likely block or immediately go into flight very quickly after a fireball. Plus will potentially allow her to just spam tons of fireballs on screen. Zero with time storm sogenmu will likely be one of the strongest lockdowns in the game.


    Space Stone

    Surge: Definitely one of the potentially more dangerous surges. May not be great for just pure random use which may negate its meter build abilities a bit, but used well sounds very dangerous. Pulls opponent towards you with armor protecting you during the pull. Likely will create a lot of situations where the opponent can only do a couple things to escape damage.


    Storm: Likely will be the best day one storm along with mind. It's just one of those storms that even a novice player will be able to take advantage of really easily and then a top player reaps even more benefits. If you're bad at the game, oh well press 2 buttons and now you've placed your opponent in a situation where they lose access to tools on a level that probably hasn't been seen in fighting games before. So many setups to create that will probably be near inescapable because the opponent can barely move forwards, backwards or even jump. You basically shrink their movement space to about a 1/3 of the screen at most. Plus what makes this potentially the most dangerous storm in the game is that it locks out their ability to use any of the tag mechanics unless they use a cinematic super which removes the box temporarily. Space Storm is by far the potentially most dangerous storm as it clearly limits the opponent the most before you even account for characters.



    Reality Stone

    Surge: Most likely the best surge in the game so far. Only issue with this stone is that you can't spam it 3 times in the air before landing which has a specific benefit for building meter. With that said you can still tag in a partner and shoot another one which may have solid meter building capabilities on its own. This is essenetially the closest any surge is to giving you an assist even if you're down to one character so this will be particularly strong for mix up characters and especially zoning characters. Characters like Chris that have trouble covering things coming at them or running away from them diagonally and up can now have a surge that always covers that area. Doing basic stuff like jumping over an opponent, doing a reality surge and then tagging in another character will likely create situations where the opponent is forced into a left right mix up that they are forced to pushblock reflect to escape. Which you can just bait that and throw/command throw them.


    Storm: May not be the cheapest storm, but still one of the most beneficial. Basically gives you a bunch of full horizontal or vertical screened attacks that act as summons. Which means activating any of them right before you get hit will break you out of a combo. Making this very powerful for zoning characters as they can pretty much always get a combo breaker as long as they hit one of the elements before they get hit. It's probably going to be a lot more specific who gets the best what out of this storm, but the nice thing is that it does a lot of things overall. Combo breaking, electrical wall setting up mix ups most likely, fire dragon keeping the opponent from jumping/running away and ice can catch people pressing buttons and freeze them into more damage/mix up.


    Mind Stone


    Surge: Hmmm...kinda iffy about this surge. Range doesn't seem great (just ok) and the start up looks pretty bad. Like very visually easy to react and jump or mash out of. Which means you will have to come up with dangerous setups that are more threatening than the actual command grab. Which those setups would likely still be threatening without that surge. Then if you do all of that work to land it you have to go through another process of waiting for them or creating something that resets them out of the dizzy to get any real actual damage. Continuing to combo them after the dizzy creates heavy scaling that makes even level 3s do insignificant damage. If you can whiff it 3 times in the air before landing that might be one immediately strong point. That and giving everyone an air command grab if it can be done in the air (that will still be very slow start up and nearly impossible to set up on airborne opponent). The fact that the stone may only be effective on grounded opponents is another issue.


    Stone: To make up for the meh sounding surge, it seems to be one of the strongest storms and likely the strongest storm day one along with space storm. Too many activation type characters in this game that will be OD with lots of meter. Plus characters with invincible hypers like Captain America that can fish for button presses and try to connect with hyper. If you block just tag into partner and go more nuts. Will likely be one of the storms that is best to activate at half full as getting 4 bars will easily be done before a half charged storm ends and 4 bars is plenty enough to do a lot of work with and guarantees you 2 hit stun and block stun counter swtiches.




    Overall:
    I think the game will come to a point where certain stones will have really strong surges with good storms and other stones will have ok at best surges, but very powerful storms.

    Overall best surge = Reality surge. Despite not being able to spam it as much as some of the other surges, the fact that its a homing fireball that acts as an assist makes it the best pretty much on its own. Plenty of hard to escape tag shenanigans will be made from this with about half the work of the mind surge. Plus always puts a hit box in front of you that has to be shot at with another projectile or reflected with gold pushblock to escape. Which there will be ways to bait those as well. A projectile hit box that builds stone gauge on whiff is also good. and will be particularly good for zoning characters as it gives them a way to build closer to the surge while doing their general gameplan. Covering that diagonal upwards spot of the screen that some of them normally have trouble dealing with .


    Overall best storm = Space Storm. Mind storm got close, but even at only half gauge trapping people into a box where they can't use tag options is going to be especially scary. No storm removes more movement and options from the character than this storm.


    Surge strength potential (strongest to weakest) = Reality, Power, Time, Space, Mind.

    Reality is for obvious reasons listed. Power is just good as it sends out a strong hit box that you can whiff in air to build meter. Time is another thing that will likely be easy to punish raw, but with air runaway and tag shenanigans will likely be difficult to deal with and build meter well. Space may be stronger for some characters than others and not as easy to just use randomly, but has potential. Mind just seems to require way too much work to do stuff that the other surges can do with less work. Plus likely the least useful surge in the air other than whiffing for meter build (if it can be used in the air).

    Storm strength potential (strongest to weakest) = Space, Mind, Time, Reality, Power

    Space Storm is obvious. Puts you in very limited area of movement where running away and even rushing down becomes extremely difficult and removes all of your tag options. Mind is strong just because Marvel has traditionally been balanced around who can do the dumbest shit with meter (particularly activation and tag supers). Time is up there because about the dumbest shit you'll be able to do in the game most likely consists of activation super + time storm adding little to no recovery to activation super projectiles. Reality while nothing seemingly insanely cheap in it, still gives you natural combo breakers and generally limits space for the opponent to move while setting offense and zoning for your character. Power storm may likely be the hardest storm to make scary from a range, but once someone gets in with this storm I don't see how you're going to escape not getting hit. Plus some of the most damaging combos likely to come from the storm.

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  • KorbidonKorbidon Who can stand against such abominations? Joined: Posts: 4,405
    Reacting to shit also includes how much input delay is in the game. I'm guessing the same as sf5 which means to get ready to get hit by stuff you felt you blocked.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    Korbidon wrote: »
    Reacting to shit also includes how much input delay is in the game. I'm guessing the same as sf5 which means to get ready to get hit by stuff you felt you blocked.

    Likely. Though there will still be a premium on really hard to react to mix ups over ones that are just kinda hard to react to.

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,050 mod
    Korbidon wrote: »
    Reacting to shit also includes how much input delay is in the game. I'm guessing the same as sf5 which means to get ready to get hit by stuff you felt you blocked.

    6 frames. If you can react to stuff in KoFXIV, you can react to stuff here.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 15
    d3v wrote: »
    Korbidon wrote: »
    Reacting to shit also includes how much input delay is in the game. I'm guessing the same as sf5 which means to get ready to get hit by stuff you felt you blocked.

    6 frames. If you can react to stuff in KoFXIV, you can react to stuff here.

    Plus if we're coming from Marvels like Marvel 3 there were enough mix ups in that game that were just frame 50/50's. Meaning there was no time to see if the mix up was coming one way or the other like a safe jump or gapped mix up. No lag can save you there because you're either already blocking the right way or you're not and get rekt with almost no visual tell.

    Lag or no lag Marvel has some of the most oppressive mix ups that pretty much require reads or guess work to escape any way. The lag is going to be more about how well people can execute movement and combos. Once people put the bullshit on you, offline or online it's going to be bullshit.


    All the game can really do at this point is minimize how quickly you die from everything which gives you more times to read patterns in their play and mix up. Which is what things like the combo scaling/undizzies and counter switches are for. You can't kill entire characters or win entire matches on being the first one to land your scum. Zero/Firebrand/Dark Vergil style "win if you get started" tactics should basically be gone in this game.

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,050 mod
    So, long story short, don't get caught blocking.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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  • GhostTearGhostTear Abyss Walker Joined: Posts: 2,026
    I like this thread. Good read. I thought reality stone was meh but you opened up my mind where it is strong.
  • flickyflicky Joined: Posts: 478
    From the GD thread:



    Hmm, so tech throw throws you all away to the other side of the screen now, meaning no more throw tech shenanigans.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 15
    Yeah I figured that's what happened during throw techs. No way they were going to let throw tech loops happen 2 games in a row

    Throws remove all your red health now so they're definitely too dangerous to leave up to mashing techs.

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  • flickyflicky Joined: Posts: 478
    edited August 15
    On a whim I just thought of an application for Space Surge and that's during counter switch. If you're being combo'd and then counter switch, all you'd have to do would be to use Space Surge to pull the enemy towards the point character saving added damage to your partner an potential punish.
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Remember me now, Yipes? Joined: Posts: 7,471
    Some thoughts on the Space Surge's application:
    - Could you force someone to stay close by canceling the surge into the storm, preventing any late backwards movement?
    - How about tagging on a surge followed by another surge? You could probably displace someone pretty far with that.

    Really want to see some crazy combos with Power/Reality storms so I can get a better idea of how their damage output relates to what you can do with the Time/Mind storms.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    I'm sure space will have a lot of shenanigans we're not accounting for. Didn't even think about space surge, tag, surge again.

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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    edited August 16
    So was reading what all the v skills were (LOL) space v skill might be pretty busted depending on what it's parameters are.

    I basically see it like being used as to tag out of and use the armor to eat your opponents active frames, giving the tagged in character time to launch off of a successful absorb.

    Depending on how the frames work and stuff this could be really good.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 16
    Another interesting thing about the surges is that they build meter on whiff, which is rare for fighting games these days. It's just to go with that they only build the exact same meter on attack/hit/block or whiff. I guess this is done because there are some surges like time surges that do not touch the opponent and are just a movement.

    Characters that can fly around and whiff their surges often or find ways to use them in neutral or pressure often will inevitably get to their storms faster. Like SFV, finding ways to optimize your V Skill and Crush counters will fill your bar up with higher health than if you aren't optimized and just get beat up. Plus with the way the game seems to be working it seems like the person who is just getting beat up won't have as strong of a storm as the one that is really going in with the surges and building for playing well.

    This especially comes into play as if you lose a character you will definitely be at a deficit even with a full storm as 1 character with a storm just isn't going to be as strong as 2 characters with a storm. A good amount of your resources are attached to your second character and are lost as soon as they die. Which will make how the Soul stone works more interesting.

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  • Doctrine DarkDoctrine Dark Giving your waifu the pipeu Joined: Posts: 6,777
    edited August 16
    How does everyone feel about the lvl3 scaling this time around?

    I have a strong feeling we won't see them as much unless someone's decides to style. It just doesn't seem worth using. A lot of lvl1 supers doesn't even seem that effective when it comes to finishing a combo.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 16
    How does everyone feel about the lvl3 scaling this time around?

    I have a strong feeling we won't see them as much unless someone's decides to style. It just doesn't seem worth using.

    Not sure yet. I think they'll still be good for sealing a character kill as there looks like there will be points where people's health bars get low with the guts that comboing into a level 3 is the only way you'll kill them guaranteed. Plus level 3s are generally cinematics which means you can use them to lock people out of counter switching.


    Which means cinematic level 1s will also be important as those can also can also lock people out of counter switching. Generally anybody who has a cinematic super will have a leg up in killing off characters before someone can switch out. Especially if you tag them right before they gain 2 bars to switch.

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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,198
    How does everyone feel about the lvl3 scaling this time around?

    I have a strong feeling we won't see them as much unless someone's decides to style. It just doesn't seem worth using. A lot of lvl1 supers doesn't even seem that effective when it comes to finishing a combo.

    Right now I'm looking at the game as more reset based. Lots of things are pointing to reset based gameplay. In SG level 3 are good for 3 reasons, they have lower minimum scaling, and because dhc into them costs one meter less than if they were used raw, and level 3 biggest use is to end killing combos that came just after a reset where the scaling is much lower but a characters guts kicks in (I don't think SG has guts though... can't remember)
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 965
    How does everyone feel about the lvl3 scaling this time around?

    I have a strong feeling we won't see them as much unless someone's decides to style. It just doesn't seem worth using.

    Not sure yet. I think they'll still be good for sealing a character kill as there looks like there will be points where people's health bars get low with the guts that comboing into a level 3 is the only way you'll kill them guaranteed. Plus level 3s are generally cinematics which means you can use them to lock people out of counter switching.


    Which means cinematic level 1s will also be important as those can also can also lock people out of counter switching. Generally anybody who has a cinematic super will have a leg up in killing off characters before someone can switch out. Especially if you tag them right before they gain 2 bars to switch.

    Are there any cinematic lvl1s so far? Doesn't seem that way. Every lvl1 hyper I've seen can be tagged out of, to include stuff like Ultimate Web Throw. I wouldn't be surprised if lvl3s were the only truely cinematic hypers, and in that case characters without cinematic lvl3s like Zero and Arthur might actually be at a disadvantage.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,289 mod
    edited August 16
    Spiderman still has maximum spider


    With that said certain level 3s like Arthurs if it still has 300 million frames of invincibility and hits the whole screen may be good vs counter switches. The opponent can't really counter switch that without getting the switched out character bodied and won't be able to do anything because they'll either get hit or stuck in the block stun by the super.
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,050 mod
    I'm guessing we'll see a lot more of the command grab level 3s simply based on the fact that they seem to have zero start up frames.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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  • KorbidonKorbidon Who can stand against such abominations? Joined: Posts: 4,405
    Considering the terrible damage supers do after scaling, expect characters with installs to use it purely to burn meter to stay in form. Sogenmu forever...forever...
  • flickyflicky Joined: Posts: 478
    I think the power stone is going to be a sleeper. Much like time stone it's great for storm meter building, plus it has a decent sized hit box, I'm not sure on it's recovery though so it might be punishable, but it still builds meter on whiff. But with all the issues surrounding damage scaling I think this will be the answer to that particular problem, and is probably why the power stone exists so things like Lv3's do full damage, just like the mind stone specifically targets meter. You could spam power surge and do mixups all day on the first character and then when you have enough for the storm and land a hit, bam activate and your opponent is dead KO. Some characters won't need bonus properties, some will be able to carry them selves and the extra damage from the power stone might be all they need to seal the deal.
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