MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,364 mod
    Frame data for Marvel is very tough because it's always changed by the nature of the tag system and multiple characters being on screen.


    Time surge looks like it'll have a lot of recovery as even just messing around in story mode if I do a teleport and mash on the buttons in takes a really long time after they reappear from the teleport to be able to perform any actions. Most likely meaning you're not able to block during the phasing in as well. Without frame data you can already know the recovery is pretty bad.


    Which is why tagging afterwards if you're near the opponent will likely be the better option at a higher level. You can just dead body the teleported character and ambiguously come in from one or the other side with the other character. What I would like to know is if there's any invincibility or recovery before you can start actions or block after a tag.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,364 mod
    edited August 18
    Pretty much. Frame data is good to know in the few situations where you get guaranteed punishes or just know who will likely win in close quarter scenarios where the fastest jab is going to be important.

    More important to know what hit boxes look like so you can know that Dr.Doom can dive on you with his neck and his butt.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • GhostTearGhostTear Vanessa for MVCI! Joined: Posts: 2,633
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,364 mod
    GhostTear wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.

    By that he generally means throwing out an attack on block and then tag switching in. In most fighting games you have to deal with your frames other than some type of meter cancel. In this game you can throw out something that's minus 13 on block, but then tag before the minus 13 even becomes a factor into another character and make it safe.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    edited August 18
    GhostTear wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.

    Tag freeze and invul frames.

    When you hit tag, there are 25 frames where the only character moving on the screen is the tagged character. Both characters who were on screen before that are locked and cannot move. In addition to this, the tagged in character has full invulnerability. It doesn't matter if you have a button out even before the tag, the tagged in character will just go through it and hit you.

    I did a frame-by-frame analysis of this on reddit.

    As you can see from the image below, the tagged in character seems to go through the active frames of any attack that's already out during tag.
    5j7pdCd.jpg

    You can see the thing in motion here.
    https://gfycat.com/cornyskeletalazurevase
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,364 mod
    That's what I'm wondering about the tag system. If it's basically a way to freeze the game and make you come in invincible, that's going to cause the same shenanigans that happen with invincible assists where people are always going to have to stop pressing buttons for a bit to watch for an invincible tag. Wonder if there's any ways to get around it or if it's just a free way to come in with invincibility.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • quicksquicks Joined: Posts: 3,287
    Fame data is still important for things like rush down, knowing when you have the advantage is really important, knowing what specials and normals are safe on block is super important too, regardless of switch, you might not want to switch into a bad matchup, your other character could be low life, and regardless of invincible frames, people have been getting both characters lit up ALOT
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,908
    d3v wrote: »
    GhostTear wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.

    Tag freeze and invul frames.

    When you hit tag, there are 25 frames where the only character moving on the screen is the tagged character. Both characters who were on screen before that are locked and cannot move. In addition to this, the tagged in character has full invulnerability. It doesn't matter if you have a button out even before the tag, the tagged in character will just go through it and hit you.

    I did a frame-by-frame analysis of this on reddit.

    As you can see from the image below, the tagged in character seems to go through the active frames of any attack that's already out during tag.
    5j7pdCd.jpg

    You can see the thing in motion here.
    https://gfycat.com/cornyskeletalazurevase

    This is amazing! Invincible normals go go go!
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    edited August 18
    Dime wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    GhostTear wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.

    Tag freeze and invul frames.

    When you hit tag, there are 25 frames where the only character moving on the screen is the tagged character. Both characters who were on screen before that are locked and cannot move. In addition to this, the tagged in character has full invulnerability. It doesn't matter if you have a button out even before the tag, the tagged in character will just go through it and hit you.

    I did a frame-by-frame analysis of this on reddit.

    As you can see from the image below, the tagged in character seems to go through the active frames of any attack that's already out during tag.
    5j7pdCd.jpg

    You can see the thing in motion here.
    https://gfycat.com/cornyskeletalazurevase

    This is amazing! Invincible normals go go go!

    There's still a ton we don't know about tag ins though. For example, how safe are they on block (I counted 6 recovery frames on whiff, so it's a matter of how much block stun they do), if they retain full invul even on recovery, and how tag freeze in general works when you cancel the tag in to so stuff.

    That said, with what we do know, I'm beginning to think that reversal tag might actually be a thing, provided you don't mash it out and get saving tag instead (maybe gold pushblock into reversal tag?).
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,055
    Time surge may have long recovery, but how much of that time is punishable? Seems pretty invinc
    d3v wrote: »
    GhostTear wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.

    Tag freeze and invul frames.

    When you hit tag, there are 25 frames where the only character moving on the screen is the tagged character. Both characters who were on screen before that are locked and cannot move. In addition to this, the tagged in character has full invulnerability. It doesn't matter if you have a button out even before the tag, the tagged in character will just go through it and hit you.

    I did a frame-by-frame analysis of this on reddit.

    As you can see from the image below, the tagged in character seems to go through the active frames of any attack that's already out during tag.
    5j7pdCd.jpg

    You can see the thing in motion here.
    https://gfycat.com/cornyskeletalazurevase

    It's equally possible the active frames to power surge are just short.
    My Characters/Teams:
    UMvC3 - Spider-Man/Magneto/Dante, Zero/Dante/Strider, Doom/Dormammu/Dante
    SSF4 - Juri, Yun, El Fuerte
    Injustice - Flash, Zod, Lex Luthor
    Skullgirls - Cerebella/Squigly, Parasoul/Double
    GGXXAC+R - Slayer, Baiken

    3DS FC: 5043-2719-7330
  • quicksquicks Joined: Posts: 3,287
    The tagged out character stays out for ages
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,795
    This tag invincibility will be a pain in the ass but could be pretty sexy for big bodies in the back. Get in for free cards.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    Time surge may have long recovery, but how much of that time is punishable? Seems pretty invinc
    d3v wrote: »
    GhostTear wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Frame data almost doesn't matter here now since tag makes everything safe.

    This is the exact opposite of SFV. Whereas that game required commitment, this game almost has no commitment whatsoever since you can tag to make anything safe.

    whoa whoa whoa. how does tag make everything safe? i'm pretty sure if you fuk up and tag in you can still get caught by something if the opponent reacts fast enough.

    Tag freeze and invul frames.

    When you hit tag, there are 25 frames where the only character moving on the screen is the tagged character. Both characters who were on screen before that are locked and cannot move. In addition to this, the tagged in character has full invulnerability. It doesn't matter if you have a button out even before the tag, the tagged in character will just go through it and hit you.

    I did a frame-by-frame analysis of this on reddit.

    As you can see from the image below, the tagged in character seems to go through the active frames of any attack that's already out during tag.
    5j7pdCd.jpg

    You can see the thing in motion here.
    https://gfycat.com/cornyskeletalazurevase

    It's equally possible the active frames to power surge are just short.

    Maybe, but there's way too many frames where it looks like the hitbox should still be active.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,364 mod
    quicks wrote: »
    Fame data is still important for things like rush down, knowing when you have the advantage is really important, knowing what specials and normals are safe on block is super important too, regardless of switch, you might not want to switch into a bad matchup, your other character could be low life, and regardless of invincible frames, people have been getting both characters lit up ALOT

    True. It's just in Marvel there's a lot of ways to cancel your attacks that are negative.


    Although one way you can tell people don't know frame data is when they pushblock stuff that is negative on block that wasn't canceled into anything. Like people that pushblock She Hulks c.H.



    Oh and this lightning corridor during reality is starting to look really strong. Looks like it tracks the opponent to some extent.

    y80nL6.gif

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • GhostTearGhostTear Vanessa for MVCI! Joined: Posts: 2,633
    that looks so legit lol
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 848
    This game is gonna be fucking insane!
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 4,795
    quicks wrote: »
    Fame data is still important for things like rush down, knowing when you have the advantage is really important, knowing what specials and normals are safe on block is super important too, regardless of switch, you might not want to switch into a bad matchup, your other character could be low life, and regardless of invincible frames, people have been getting both characters lit up ALOT

    True. It's just in Marvel there's a lot of ways to cancel your attacks that are negative.


    Although one way you can tell people don't know frame data is when they pushblock stuff that is negative on block that wasn't canceled into anything. Like people that pushblock She Hulks c.H.



    Oh and this lightning corridor during reality is starting to look really strong. Looks like it tracks the opponent to some extent.

    y80nL6.gif

    I was wondering why people were sleeping on that stone. I'm a fan.
  • flickyflicky Super Nintendo Chalmers Joined: Posts: 848
    edited August 18
    quicks wrote: »
    Fame data is still important for things like rush down, knowing when you have the advantage is really important, knowing what specials and normals are safe on block is super important too, regardless of switch, you might not want to switch into a bad matchup, your other character could be low life, and regardless of invincible frames, people have been getting both characters lit up ALOT

    True. It's just in Marvel there's a lot of ways to cancel your attacks that are negative.


    Although one way you can tell people don't know frame data is when they pushblock stuff that is negative on block that wasn't canceled into anything. Like people that pushblock She Hulks c.H.



    Oh and this lightning corridor during reality is starting to look really strong. Looks like it tracks the opponent to some extent.

    y80nL6.gif

    I was wondering why people were sleeping on that stone. I'm a fan.

    I wonder if Gimlett will go through it as you have to be at least whiffing a move to do it.
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,055
    There also must be some kind of use for the little wind bullets as well. I'm liking that stone for teleporters because it adds that extra layer of dirt to a left/right mixup. It also gives them space to set up stuff, such as Strange's glyphs, Thanos' shields, Strider's bombs/animals and whatever Dormammu will end up having.
    My Characters/Teams:
    UMvC3 - Spider-Man/Magneto/Dante, Zero/Dante/Strider, Doom/Dormammu/Dante
    SSF4 - Juri, Yun, El Fuerte
    Injustice - Flash, Zod, Lex Luthor
    Skullgirls - Cerebella/Squigly, Parasoul/Double
    GGXXAC+R - Slayer, Baiken

    3DS FC: 5043-2719-7330
  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,717
    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    There also must be some kind of use for the little wind bullets as well. I'm liking that stone for teleporters because it adds that extra layer of dirt to a left/right mixup. It also gives them space to set up stuff, such as Strange's glyphs, Thanos' shields, Strider's bombs/animals and whatever Dormammu will end up having.

    I'm thinking about wind bullets+ouroboros
  • ES_CurseES_Curse ALL HAIL THE HOLY PHARAOH Joined: Posts: 8,189
    So did anyone ever show if the Reality Storm effects are triggered on press (Dark Phoenix) or release (negative edge/Zero Busters)? Also, can more than 1 effect be out at once?
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,364 mod
    I think the wind bullets can be used with the other big elements. Fire, ice and electricity can only be used one at a time individually afaik


    Not sure about button/negative edge thing

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,717
    I think the wind bullets can be used with the other big elements. Fire, ice and electricity can only be used one at a time individually afaik


    Not sure about button/negative edge thing

    Combofiend said on that video with Yipes that you can summon one element, tag, and summon another, just like with the surge IIRC.
  • Nino_AllahNino_Allah Joined: Posts: 6
    edited August 20
    I actually see the meta being your point is the assist char and your tag in as the "closer" / dmg dealer.

    For example Im looking at cap as my point who can be all around basic man and has a ton of things he can set up for ultron to come in behind amd do work with. Boomerang shield tag sets up the box jumps and lock down or zone drone drone game to reset neutral safely.

    End combos into safe tags to bring cap back in and set up shop w more shields again, shield 2k dash throughs tag etc.. Parry for cap eats beams as well shown in recent vids so he can try and get tagged out of the hard zoning he may have an issue with.

    Strong points is what ill call supports in this game w a dmg dealer comin in after. Zero, dante, gamora, strange, x can all set the field up and lock someone into block stun to allow the secondary mixup type char to get free attempts at opening them up.

    Course you will need to tag more frequently but ideally your point is someone like x that seemingly has tons of mixup lockdown tag type tools like the buster / overhead lockdowns for pressure on block or full combos on hit w the tag.

    Ps play ultron w me so we can be robo bros again @DevilJin 01 lol
    Post edited by Nino_Allah on
  • Nino_AllahNino_Allah Joined: Posts: 6
    One other note on the stones, as of now power and time seem to be the clear strong out the box stones from all the cons Ive played at.

    Power allowing chars w air dash shenanigans doing a wallbounce on hit crossup/front auto correct or safe on block is super strong. Not being able to pushblock powerstone in the surge and doing more dmg/ hit stun allowing bigger combo possibility is also super good.

    Time the tp is actually a special so you can cancel stones to supers for cheap shit left rights. The benefits in storm are pretty obvious w the easy custom combos or flooding the screen w projectiles.

    The soul stone gonna make everyone flip their shit though
  • Nino_AllahNino_Allah Joined: Posts: 6
    edited August 20
    I havent seen this brought up, in the builds i played plinking with tag on animated supers cancelled the animation and allowed you to bring your second char in. Never saw if this removed the no tag feature of opponent by doing this seemingly glitched tag.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    Nino_Allah wrote: »
    I actually see the meta being your point is the assist char and your tag in as the "closer" / dmg dealer.

    For example Im looking at cap as my point who can be all around basic man and has a ton of things he can set up for ultron to come in behind amd do work with. Boomerang shield tag sets up the box jumps and lock down or zone drone drone game to reset neutral safely.
    Replace box jumps with DUD short hops which makes everyone able to do a 4 way mixup on tag.
  • ES_CurseES_Curse ALL HAIL THE HOLY PHARAOH Joined: Posts: 8,189
    While most people will go to the tag-assist/closer team format early on, there are characters in the roster that could allow for unconventional game plans.
    - Morrigan is potentially the best battery in the game if she can start hitting projectiles after a spear attack
    - I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but Haggar being able to cancel Lariat into tags, hypers, or an Infinity Storm (because it has the priority of a hyper) is huge. You have to fight him differently than other characters because he has one of the strongest reversal tools in a VS game ever.
    - If Dormammu's spells work like they did in 3, you could honestly just build the team around setting him up. Once he's ready, you have someone with multiple very good support tools for your other character, not the least of which is Stalking Flare.
    - If Firebrand's unblockable works like it did in 3, he's going to be in a tier of his own, or at least tied with Zero.
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
  • KorbidonKorbidon Who can stand against such abominations? Joined: Posts: 4,605
    Even without his unblockable firebrand is nutso if he has his old toolset. What held him back in 3 was just damage.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    CalculatingAptHarlequinbug.gif
    Seems to confirm that, contrary to my earlier speculation, tag ins aren't fully invincible. Which also means that power surge has a really short active period, or some really bad hitboxes.
  • quicksquicks Joined: Posts: 3,287
    d3v wrote: »
    CalculatingAptHarlequinbug.gif
    Seems to confirm that, contrary to my earlier speculation, tag ins aren't fully invincible. Which also means that power surge has a really short active period, or some really bad hitboxes.

    I dare you to box jump at me and tag
  • killthevibekillthevibe i'm a marvel/dbz player now Joined: Posts: 661
    edited August 21
    Hawkeye looks so awkward in this game. Gameplay wise. His zoning doesn't seem effective at all

    predicting bottom 3 character

    also it's very good that tags aren't completely invincible. i was worried about dumb tag shenanigans if you couldn't punish people at all for tagging
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    edited August 21
    quicks wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    CalculatingAptHarlequinbug.gif
    Seems to confirm that, contrary to my earlier speculation, tag ins aren't fully invincible. Which also means that power surge has a really short active period, or some really bad hitboxes.

    I dare you to box jump at me and tag

    Why box jump when you can DUD hop?
  • willselesswillseless Joined: Posts: 2,717
    d3v wrote: »

    Seems to confirm that, contrary to my earlier speculation, tag ins aren't fully invincible. Which also means that power surge has a really short active period, or some really bad hitboxes.

    Maybe Morrigan canceled the tag and walked back?
  • killthevibekillthevibe i'm a marvel/dbz player now Joined: Posts: 661
    here's a breakdown
    1:
    vYkKjhB.jpg

    2:
    M3ytAhr.jpg

    3:
    zTSXsZM.jpg

    4:
    C0o1Uhq.jpg

    5:
    HnJ5MSE.jpg


    Either morrigan was hitting a button or getting hit out of your tag-in puts you in a counter hit state
  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,055
    d3v wrote: »
    quicks wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    CalculatingAptHarlequinbug.gif
    Seems to confirm that, contrary to my earlier speculation, tag ins aren't fully invincible. Which also means that power surge has a really short active period, or some really bad hitboxes.

    I dare you to box jump at me and tag

    Why box jump when you can DUD hop?

    DUD won't be the one true solution due to the floatiness. It's very versatile, but when you need to keep pressure up with something fast box jumps will still be better.
    My Characters/Teams:
    UMvC3 - Spider-Man/Magneto/Dante, Zero/Dante/Strider, Doom/Dormammu/Dante
    SSF4 - Juri, Yun, El Fuerte
    Injustice - Flash, Zod, Lex Luthor
    Skullgirls - Cerebella/Squigly, Parasoul/Double
    GGXXAC+R - Slayer, Baiken

    3DS FC: 5043-2719-7330
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,002 mod
    KiyaaKing wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    quicks wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    CalculatingAptHarlequinbug.gif
    Seems to confirm that, contrary to my earlier speculation, tag ins aren't fully invincible. Which also means that power surge has a really short active period, or some really bad hitboxes.

    I dare you to box jump at me and tag

    Why box jump when you can DUD hop?

    DUD won't be the one true solution due to the floatiness. It's very versatile, but when you need to keep pressure up with something fast box jumps will still be better.
    DUD looks to be great in standing reset situations though, cancel a grounded normal into DUD, and then layer in a tag when you think they've read the cross up.
  • quicksquicks Joined: Posts: 3,287
    Also I'm beginning to think gamora isn't going to be as good as I thought.

    She seems to really struggle with other characters mobility and her projectiles only BN go down forward

    Idk
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