MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

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  • AsuraXgunnerAsuraXgunner Joined: Posts: 3
    flicky wrote: »
    Something I'm really struggling with is something we haven't talked a whole lot about and that's team dynamics/structure/format. Past Marvel games have been very clear, for instance MvC2 was mainly structured as battery/main/assist each with certain purposes, MvC3 was a little bit different and could possibly be described as shell1/shell2/anchor, but with Infinite I'm honestly not sure how to describe team dynamics in this way, or whether we've even reached the stage where we understand enough to be able to do so.

    I get some of the concepts in this game, but I struggle to understand the overall goal. For instance, it seems for a lot of players matchups don't really matter, or perhaps matchups just can't be defined in a traditional sense. Players favour one particular move, lariat for example, and they base their gameplan around that (spam lariat, switch and win), people don't seem to be thinking about whether Dante is a better matchup against Ultron, or some shit like that, it's as if classic matchups aren't being considered or aren't needed, and that's where I'm lost.

    For example, Sentinel/Storm/Commando is a counter pick to Storm/Sentinel/Commando, you know? There was a clear advantage to playing Sentinel on point sometimes. But in Infinite, I don't see that. I play Winter Soldier mostly, so my mind set is, play the keepaway game, build a bit of Infinity, land my hit confirm and then switch and go in for damage; where as another mind set might be just to walk forward and do qcb+p and switch just for the fuck of it because qcb+p has sick ass properties and is safe with a switch. So I'm kind of lost as to how to approach my team dynamics; what is the purpose of my point character? What is the purpose of my second character? What words do I use to specifically define their purpose? How to I put that into a format?

    That's where I'm blank, I look at the character select and can't make sense of my gameplan because there's so many strategies I can't fit character to character and say "yeah this is a good idea!" I play WinterSoldier/Venom, Winter Soldier has sick hit confirms, Venom has a full screen switch dash, boom easy damage. But that's a classical way of thinking, not an infinite way of thinking, sometimes I just qcb+p in their face on GO and people are like wtf while his armour eats all their button presses, and I think, well what the hell was the purpose of that? How do I format that? It might as well be called team Charlie, Scrub/Dante/Winning.

    I really don't get it...
    Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but if your asking about the termalogy of formatting teams. Would it be Point/Support, Support/Support, Support/Point, or Point/Point? Supporting Characters would help in mix-ups/Damage. Point characters are characters that are focused on neutral. Then we can dive deeper with the stones with the different play styles.
  • flickyflicky Why do people run from me? Joined: Posts: 979
    flicky wrote: »
    Something I'm really struggling with is something we haven't talked a whole lot about and that's team dynamics/structure/format. Past Marvel games have been very clear, for instance MvC2 was mainly structured as battery/main/assist each with certain purposes, MvC3 was a little bit different and could possibly be described as shell1/shell2/anchor, but with Infinite I'm honestly not sure how to describe team dynamics in this way, or whether we've even reached the stage where we understand enough to be able to do so.

    I get some of the concepts in this game, but I struggle to understand the overall goal. For instance, it seems for a lot of players matchups don't really matter, or perhaps matchups just can't be defined in a traditional sense. Players favour one particular move, lariat for example, and they base their gameplan around that (spam lariat, switch and win), people don't seem to be thinking about whether Dante is a better matchup against Ultron, or some shit like that, it's as if classic matchups aren't being considered or aren't needed, and that's where I'm lost.

    For example, Sentinel/Storm/Commando is a counter pick to Storm/Sentinel/Commando, you know? There was a clear advantage to playing Sentinel on point sometimes. But in Infinite, I don't see that. I play Winter Soldier mostly, so my mind set is, play the keepaway game, build a bit of Infinity, land my hit confirm and then switch and go in for damage; where as another mind set might be just to walk forward and do qcb+p and switch just for the fuck of it because qcb+p has sick ass properties and is safe with a switch. So I'm kind of lost as to how to approach my team dynamics; what is the purpose of my point character? What is the purpose of my second character? What words do I use to specifically define their purpose? How to I put that into a format?

    That's where I'm blank, I look at the character select and can't make sense of my gameplan because there's so many strategies I can't fit character to character and say "yeah this is a good idea!" I play WinterSoldier/Venom, Winter Soldier has sick hit confirms, Venom has a full screen switch dash, boom easy damage. But that's a classical way of thinking, not an infinite way of thinking, sometimes I just qcb+p in their face on GO and people are like wtf while his armour eats all their button presses, and I think, well what the hell was the purpose of that? How do I format that? It might as well be called team Charlie, Scrub/Dante/Winning.

    I really don't get it...
    Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but if your asking about the termalogy of formatting teams. Would it be Point/Support, Support/Support, Support/Point, or Point/Point? Supporting Characters would help in mix-ups/Damage. Point characters are characters that are focused on neutral. Then we can dive deeper with the stones with the different play styles.

    What I mean is...

    In Marvel 2 team format was very well defined, battery/main/assist or main/main/assist was almost a universal way of constructing a successful team, within reason. For instance, Santhrax (Storm/Sentinel/Commando), Storm was the battery until she had built enough bars to DHC into Sentinel and do the HSF loop to kill a character. MSP (Magneto/Storm/Psylocke), Magneto would build meter for Storm where she'd use her mobility and Hail Storm to annoy and oppress characters. Matrix (Storm/Sentinel/Cyclops), or Team Scrub (Cable/Sentinel/Commando), you get the picture.

    In Marvel 3 things were a little different, teams formed in very powerul shells, for example Morrigan/Doom, Wolverine/Akuma, etc. The point character's roll wasn't necessarily to build meter or stall any more, the point character became the main and the second character became the assist that formed an almost indestructible shell. Also now because of X-Factor the third character was rarely used as an assist because their Lv3 XF was just too damn good to risk killing the character for, so in Marvel 3 that ability to format a team still existed but it had changed somewhat to fit with it's own mechanics.

    Now with Marvel infinite, I don't know how that translates, or even if it translates across at all and we have to come up with new ways of describing a team. I'm going to come back to it again, Winter Soldier, if I want I can play him like Cable and just keep my distance, or if I want I can play him like Psyblade and just throw out his arm at the start of a match because of how good and safe it is with switch. I can choose how I want to start the match, do I want to play neutral? Or do I want to Hail Mary? I have that choice and I don't have to suffer any consequences for it, unlike Marvel 2 where if I throw out Psyblade I might get double snapped and lose Psylocke completely.

    You see how it's changed now? There's no punishment for starting a match like a scrub, in fact now it's good to be a scrub, you can play the game without any matchup knowledge at all and still win as long as you use switch to keep everything unsafe safe. So what now defines the matchup?

    I've said this before but hypothetically I don't think this game is a 2v2 fighter, it's more like a 1.5v1.5 fighter. The reason being is because essentially your two characters form one, in a symbiotic relationship, to be dramatic. But once you lose a character all of that benefit the symbiotic relationship gave you has gone and your remaining character is reduced to half of what it once was (excluding Soul).

    So what is the purpose of your point character? What is the purpose of your second character? How do you bring it back when everything you do is punishable but everything the opponent does is safe? By losing a character you lose more than just their utility, you lose the ability to Hail Mary and have to resort to pure skill based classical methods of approaching the match, instead of just playing like a scrub.

    That's why I'm mind fucked, maybe people just don't understand, but I'm thinking ahead here. Soul Storm is going to be super important, probably the top most tier gem in the game, also I think Power Surge is as well, because if people choose not to roll with Soul Storm they're going to need something to survive the 2v1 matchup, something like a huge hit box with a wall bounce to scare the opponent into rushing in and pressing buttons like a scrub, because the comeback is going to be tough at end game.

    Anyway I'm ranting...
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 5,027
    flicky wrote: »
    flicky wrote: »
    Something I'm really struggling with is something we haven't talked a whole lot about and that's team dynamics/structure/format. Past Marvel games have been very clear, for instance MvC2 was mainly structured as battery/main/assist each with certain purposes, MvC3 was a little bit different and could possibly be described as shell1/shell2/anchor, but with Infinite I'm honestly not sure how to describe team dynamics in this way, or whether we've even reached the stage where we understand enough to be able to do so.

    I get some of the concepts in this game, but I struggle to understand the overall goal. For instance, it seems for a lot of players matchups don't really matter, or perhaps matchups just can't be defined in a traditional sense. Players favour one particular move, lariat for example, and they base their gameplan around that (spam lariat, switch and win), people don't seem to be thinking about whether Dante is a better matchup against Ultron, or some shit like that, it's as if classic matchups aren't being considered or aren't needed, and that's where I'm lost.

    For example, Sentinel/Storm/Commando is a counter pick to Storm/Sentinel/Commando, you know? There was a clear advantage to playing Sentinel on point sometimes. But in Infinite, I don't see that. I play Winter Soldier mostly, so my mind set is, play the keepaway game, build a bit of Infinity, land my hit confirm and then switch and go in for damage; where as another mind set might be just to walk forward and do qcb+p and switch just for the fuck of it because qcb+p has sick ass properties and is safe with a switch. So I'm kind of lost as to how to approach my team dynamics; what is the purpose of my point character? What is the purpose of my second character? What words do I use to specifically define their purpose? How to I put that into a format?

    That's where I'm blank, I look at the character select and can't make sense of my gameplan because there's so many strategies I can't fit character to character and say "yeah this is a good idea!" I play WinterSoldier/Venom, Winter Soldier has sick hit confirms, Venom has a full screen switch dash, boom easy damage. But that's a classical way of thinking, not an infinite way of thinking, sometimes I just qcb+p in their face on GO and people are like wtf while his armour eats all their button presses, and I think, well what the hell was the purpose of that? How do I format that? It might as well be called team Charlie, Scrub/Dante/Winning.

    I really don't get it...
    Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but if your asking about the termalogy of formatting teams. Would it be Point/Support, Support/Support, Support/Point, or Point/Point? Supporting Characters would help in mix-ups/Damage. Point characters are characters that are focused on neutral. Then we can dive deeper with the stones with the different play styles.

    What I mean is...

    In Marvel 2 team format was very well defined, battery/main/assist or main/main/assist was almost a universal way of constructing a successful team, within reason. For instance, Santhrax (Storm/Sentinel/Commando), Storm was the battery until she had built enough bars to DHC into Sentinel and do the HSF loop to kill a character. MSP (Magneto/Storm/Psylocke), Magneto would build meter for Storm where she'd use her mobility and Hail Storm to annoy and oppress characters. Matrix (Storm/Sentinel/Cyclops), or Team Scrub (Cable/Sentinel/Commando), you get the picture.

    In Marvel 3 things were a little different, teams formed in very powerul shells, for example Morrigan/Doom, Wolverine/Akuma, etc. The point character's roll wasn't necessarily to build meter or stall any more, the point character became the main and the second character became the assist that formed an almost indestructible shell. Also now because of X-Factor the third character was rarely used as an assist because their Lv3 XF was just too damn good to risk killing the character for, so in Marvel 3 that ability to format a team still existed but it had changed somewhat to fit with it's own mechanics.

    Now with Marvel infinite, I don't know how that translates, or even if it translates across at all and we have to come up with new ways of describing a team. I'm going to come back to it again, Winter Soldier, if I want I can play him like Cable and just keep my distance, or if I want I can play him like Psyblade and just throw out his arm at the start of a match because of how good and safe it is with switch. I can choose how I want to start the match, do I want to play neutral? Or do I want to Hail Mary? I have that choice and I don't have to suffer any consequences for it, unlike Marvel 2 where if I throw out Psyblade I might get double snapped and lose Psylocke completely.

    You see how it's changed now? There's no punishment for starting a match like a scrub, in fact now it's good to be a scrub, you can play the game without any matchup knowledge at all and still win as long as you use switch to keep everything unsafe safe. So what now defines the matchup?

    I've said this before but hypothetically I don't think this game is a 2v2 fighter, it's more like a 1.5v1.5 fighter. The reason being is because essentially your two characters form one, in a symbiotic relationship, to be dramatic. But once you lose a character all of that benefit the symbiotic relationship gave you has gone and your remaining character is reduced to half of what it once was (excluding Soul).

    So what is the purpose of your point character? What is the purpose of your second character? How do you bring it back when everything you do is punishable but everything the opponent does is safe? By losing a character you lose more than just their utility, you lose the ability to Hail Mary and have to resort to pure skill based classical methods of approaching the match, instead of just playing like a scrub.

    That's why I'm mind fucked, maybe people just don't understand, but I'm thinking ahead here. Soul Storm is going to be super important, probably the top most tier gem in the game, also I think Power Surge is as well, because if people choose not to roll with Soul Storm they're going to need something to survive the 2v1 matchup, something like a huge hit box with a wall bounce to scare the opponent into rushing in and pressing buttons like a scrub, because the comeback is going to be tough at end game.

    Anyway I'm ranting...


    Power Stone is a decent comeback stone but all it really does is slow things down. I still think Space is a better comeback Storm, why might you ask?
    If you have space and have a character with good neutral that benefits from space you can navigate the two vs 1 onslaught if you've managed to do some
    damage to their team beforehand. The ability to stop them from switching plus the free level 3 is way too good imo. My Rocket has been a one man team
    on a number of occassions with Space Stone.

    Honestly Soul Stone is theoretically the better Stone. Imo it's not necessarily because of what the Storm does, but because of who it can bring back.
    In a game where the damage is pretty homogenized the "can do everything" characters don't really care if they have 10% healthy or 60% health. Bring back
    Venom? Eh. Bring back Zero? Fuck that shit! I tend to be extra careful to whittle both characters health to shit when I know Zeros in play before killing them.
  • ShishiohShishioh Starbreaker Joined: Posts: 2,924
    edited January 5
    Is there somewhere, that Capcom takes seriously enough, that we can post actual gameplay change suggestions? Not so much nerfs, but buffs to shit that would make the game a bit more fun(and hype).

    For example, make Space surge manipulate the opponents movement in 4 directions instead of one, and allow you to manipulate during hitstun. We already have tons of HSD fucking up combos and supers, so I doubt infinites are going to be a real issue. I'd probably say that it shouldn't work on incoming, due to how difficult it is to come back with one character now, but it would be a great addition to a mechanic that seems pretty limited. Magnus isn't in the game, so it makes a bit of sense to flesh it out a bit.
    "Hitboxes have nothing at all to do with the way a fighting game plays. they are just a means to an end."-Random Discus user
    Written exactly like that.
  • flickyflicky Why do people run from me? Joined: Posts: 979
    flicky wrote: »
    flicky wrote: »
    Something I'm really struggling with is something we haven't talked a whole lot about and that's team dynamics/structure/format. Past Marvel games have been very clear, for instance MvC2 was mainly structured as battery/main/assist each with certain purposes, MvC3 was a little bit different and could possibly be described as shell1/shell2/anchor, but with Infinite I'm honestly not sure how to describe team dynamics in this way, or whether we've even reached the stage where we understand enough to be able to do so.

    I get some of the concepts in this game, but I struggle to understand the overall goal. For instance, it seems for a lot of players matchups don't really matter, or perhaps matchups just can't be defined in a traditional sense. Players favour one particular move, lariat for example, and they base their gameplan around that (spam lariat, switch and win), people don't seem to be thinking about whether Dante is a better matchup against Ultron, or some shit like that, it's as if classic matchups aren't being considered or aren't needed, and that's where I'm lost.

    For example, Sentinel/Storm/Commando is a counter pick to Storm/Sentinel/Commando, you know? There was a clear advantage to playing Sentinel on point sometimes. But in Infinite, I don't see that. I play Winter Soldier mostly, so my mind set is, play the keepaway game, build a bit of Infinity, land my hit confirm and then switch and go in for damage; where as another mind set might be just to walk forward and do qcb+p and switch just for the fuck of it because qcb+p has sick ass properties and is safe with a switch. So I'm kind of lost as to how to approach my team dynamics; what is the purpose of my point character? What is the purpose of my second character? What words do I use to specifically define their purpose? How to I put that into a format?

    That's where I'm blank, I look at the character select and can't make sense of my gameplan because there's so many strategies I can't fit character to character and say "yeah this is a good idea!" I play WinterSoldier/Venom, Winter Soldier has sick hit confirms, Venom has a full screen switch dash, boom easy damage. But that's a classical way of thinking, not an infinite way of thinking, sometimes I just qcb+p in their face on GO and people are like wtf while his armour eats all their button presses, and I think, well what the hell was the purpose of that? How do I format that? It might as well be called team Charlie, Scrub/Dante/Winning.

    I really don't get it...
    Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but if your asking about the termalogy of formatting teams. Would it be Point/Support, Support/Support, Support/Point, or Point/Point? Supporting Characters would help in mix-ups/Damage. Point characters are characters that are focused on neutral. Then we can dive deeper with the stones with the different play styles.

    What I mean is...

    In Marvel 2 team format was very well defined, battery/main/assist or main/main/assist was almost a universal way of constructing a successful team, within reason. For instance, Santhrax (Storm/Sentinel/Commando), Storm was the battery until she had built enough bars to DHC into Sentinel and do the HSF loop to kill a character. MSP (Magneto/Storm/Psylocke), Magneto would build meter for Storm where she'd use her mobility and Hail Storm to annoy and oppress characters. Matrix (Storm/Sentinel/Cyclops), or Team Scrub (Cable/Sentinel/Commando), you get the picture.

    In Marvel 3 things were a little different, teams formed in very powerul shells, for example Morrigan/Doom, Wolverine/Akuma, etc. The point character's roll wasn't necessarily to build meter or stall any more, the point character became the main and the second character became the assist that formed an almost indestructible shell. Also now because of X-Factor the third character was rarely used as an assist because their Lv3 XF was just too damn good to risk killing the character for, so in Marvel 3 that ability to format a team still existed but it had changed somewhat to fit with it's own mechanics.

    Now with Marvel infinite, I don't know how that translates, or even if it translates across at all and we have to come up with new ways of describing a team. I'm going to come back to it again, Winter Soldier, if I want I can play him like Cable and just keep my distance, or if I want I can play him like Psyblade and just throw out his arm at the start of a match because of how good and safe it is with switch. I can choose how I want to start the match, do I want to play neutral? Or do I want to Hail Mary? I have that choice and I don't have to suffer any consequences for it, unlike Marvel 2 where if I throw out Psyblade I might get double snapped and lose Psylocke completely.

    You see how it's changed now? There's no punishment for starting a match like a scrub, in fact now it's good to be a scrub, you can play the game without any matchup knowledge at all and still win as long as you use switch to keep everything unsafe safe. So what now defines the matchup?

    I've said this before but hypothetically I don't think this game is a 2v2 fighter, it's more like a 1.5v1.5 fighter. The reason being is because essentially your two characters form one, in a symbiotic relationship, to be dramatic. But once you lose a character all of that benefit the symbiotic relationship gave you has gone and your remaining character is reduced to half of what it once was (excluding Soul).

    So what is the purpose of your point character? What is the purpose of your second character? How do you bring it back when everything you do is punishable but everything the opponent does is safe? By losing a character you lose more than just their utility, you lose the ability to Hail Mary and have to resort to pure skill based classical methods of approaching the match, instead of just playing like a scrub.

    That's why I'm mind fucked, maybe people just don't understand, but I'm thinking ahead here. Soul Storm is going to be super important, probably the top most tier gem in the game, also I think Power Surge is as well, because if people choose not to roll with Soul Storm they're going to need something to survive the 2v1 matchup, something like a huge hit box with a wall bounce to scare the opponent into rushing in and pressing buttons like a scrub, because the comeback is going to be tough at end game.

    Anyway I'm ranting...


    Power Stone is a decent comeback stone but all it really does is slow things down. I still think Space is a better comeback Storm, why might you ask?
    If you have space and have a character with good neutral that benefits from space you can navigate the two vs 1 onslaught if you've managed to do some
    damage to their team beforehand. The ability to stop them from switching plus the free level 3 is way too good imo. My Rocket has been a one man team
    on a number of occassions with Space Stone.

    Honestly Soul Stone is theoretically the better Stone. Imo it's not necessarily because of what the Storm does, but because of who it can bring back.
    In a game where the damage is pretty homogenized the "can do everything" characters don't really care if they have 10% healthy or 60% health. Bring back
    Venom? Eh. Bring back Zero? Fuck that shit! I tend to be extra careful to whittle both characters health to shit when I know Zeros in play before killing them.

    Yeah Space Storm is gonna be super important, but only especially with characters like Rocket or Zero who can stall them and mix them up in the box, for other characters not so much. Champ was using Power Surge with some decent success within the box because it's hit box is so big, he got baited a few times but the premise seemed solid, if people are gonna come at you and press buttons, they need to be prepared for a slap in the face. I'm considering running Power for a while, personally I need an all-time-use tool I can run with in the neutral with a downed character, rather than a one time only opportunity with the box, for my team I think it would better my chances at the comeback.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 5,027
    I can see that but space works great for:
    Zero, Rocket, Jedah, Dorm, Dante, Firebrand,
    Ultron, Thanos, basically anyone that can put a
    projectile on the screen then move in. If you miss
    ONE powestone technically you should be eating
    a pretty damaging combo.

    People just like to Yolo...especially me LOL
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited January 6
    power storm + install supers. thats how you mount a come back.

    i'm thinking of picking up captain marvel/strider. this team has derp potential.
    Post edited by Ouroborus on
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • AsuraXgunnerAsuraXgunner Joined: Posts: 3
    Is Morrigan better in the first slot or the second slot? I am running Morrigan/Dormammu w/ Mind. I am going back and forth between 10th and 9th Rank and I would like to know if I am basically making more work for my self having Morrigan on my team.


  • flighflighflugitflighflighflugit Joined: Posts: 1,760
    Morrigans probably better at the start of the match than dorm, but I would suggest using a different stone
  • AlMoStLeGeNdArYAlMoStLeGeNdArY Optimize or Die Joined: Posts: 2,370
    flicky wrote: »
    flicky wrote: »
    Something I'm really struggling with is something we haven't talked a whole lot about and that's team dynamics/structure/format. Past Marvel games have been very clear, for instance MvC2 was mainly structured as battery/main/assist each with certain purposes, MvC3 was a little bit different and could possibly be described as shell1/shell2/anchor, but with Infinite I'm honestly not sure how to describe team dynamics in this way, or whether we've even reached the stage where we understand enough to be able to do so.

    I get some of the concepts in this game, but I struggle to understand the overall goal. For instance, it seems for a lot of players matchups don't really matter, or perhaps matchups just can't be defined in a traditional sense. Players favour one particular move, lariat for example, and they base their gameplan around that (spam lariat, switch and win), people don't seem to be thinking about whether Dante is a better matchup against Ultron, or some shit like that, it's as if classic matchups aren't being considered or aren't needed, and that's where I'm lost.

    For example, Sentinel/Storm/Commando is a counter pick to Storm/Sentinel/Commando, you know? There was a clear advantage to playing Sentinel on point sometimes. But in Infinite, I don't see that. I play Winter Soldier mostly, so my mind set is, play the keepaway game, build a bit of Infinity, land my hit confirm and then switch and go in for damage; where as another mind set might be just to walk forward and do qcb+p and switch just for the fuck of it because qcb+p has sick ass properties and is safe with a switch. So I'm kind of lost as to how to approach my team dynamics; what is the purpose of my point character? What is the purpose of my second character? What words do I use to specifically define their purpose? How to I put that into a format?

    That's where I'm blank, I look at the character select and can't make sense of my gameplan because there's so many strategies I can't fit character to character and say "yeah this is a good idea!" I play WinterSoldier/Venom, Winter Soldier has sick hit confirms, Venom has a full screen switch dash, boom easy damage. But that's a classical way of thinking, not an infinite way of thinking, sometimes I just qcb+p in their face on GO and people are like wtf while his armour eats all their button presses, and I think, well what the hell was the purpose of that? How do I format that? It might as well be called team Charlie, Scrub/Dante/Winning.

    I really don't get it...
    Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but if your asking about the termalogy of formatting teams. Would it be Point/Support, Support/Support, Support/Point, or Point/Point? Supporting Characters would help in mix-ups/Damage. Point characters are characters that are focused on neutral. Then we can dive deeper with the stones with the different play styles.

    What I mean is...

    In Marvel 2 team format was very well defined, battery/main/assist or main/main/assist was almost a universal way of constructing a successful team, within reason. For instance, Santhrax (Storm/Sentinel/Commando), Storm was the battery until she had built enough bars to DHC into Sentinel and do the HSF loop to kill a character. MSP (Magneto/Storm/Psylocke), Magneto would build meter for Storm where she'd use her mobility and Hail Storm to annoy and oppress characters. Matrix (Storm/Sentinel/Cyclops), or Team Scrub (Cable/Sentinel/Commando), you get the picture.

    In Marvel 3 things were a little different, teams formed in very powerul shells, for example Morrigan/Doom, Wolverine/Akuma, etc. The point character's roll wasn't necessarily to build meter or stall any more, the point character became the main and the second character became the assist that formed an almost indestructible shell. Also now because of X-Factor the third character was rarely used as an assist because their Lv3 XF was just too damn good to risk killing the character for, so in Marvel 3 that ability to format a team still existed but it had changed somewhat to fit with it's own mechanics.

    Now with Marvel infinite, I don't know how that translates, or even if it translates across at all and we have to come up with new ways of describing a team. I'm going to come back to it again, Winter Soldier, if I want I can play him like Cable and just keep my distance, or if I want I can play him like Psyblade and just throw out his arm at the start of a match because of how good and safe it is with switch. I can choose how I want to start the match, do I want to play neutral? Or do I want to Hail Mary? I have that choice and I don't have to suffer any consequences for it, unlike Marvel 2 where if I throw out Psyblade I might get double snapped and lose Psylocke completely.

    You see how it's changed now? There's no punishment for starting a match like a scrub, in fact now it's good to be a scrub, you can play the game without any matchup knowledge at all and still win as long as you use switch to keep everything unsafe safe. So what now defines the matchup?

    I've said this before but hypothetically I don't think this game is a 2v2 fighter, it's more like a 1.5v1.5 fighter. The reason being is because essentially your two characters form one, in a symbiotic relationship, to be dramatic. But once you lose a character all of that benefit the symbiotic relationship gave you has gone and your remaining character is reduced to half of what it once was (excluding Soul).

    So what is the purpose of your point character? What is the purpose of your second character? How do you bring it back when everything you do is punishable but everything the opponent does is safe? By losing a character you lose more than just their utility, you lose the ability to Hail Mary and have to resort to pure skill based classical methods of approaching the match, instead of just playing like a scrub.

    That's why I'm mind fucked, maybe people just don't understand, but I'm thinking ahead here. Soul Storm is going to be super important, probably the top most tier gem in the game, also I think Power Surge is as well, because if people choose not to roll with Soul Storm they're going to need something to survive the 2v1 matchup, something like a huge hit box with a wall bounce to scare the opponent into rushing in and pressing buttons like a scrub, because the comeback is going to be tough at end game.

    Anyway I'm ranting...

    Often times you're not going to bring it back unless you significantly out play your opponent with your second character. While the team dynamic is different there's still a semblance of those concepts there. It's up to you to decide what you want. I don't believe that there's too much of a difference in meter build between combos (could be wrong). However the game is still about getting the first hit and putting your opponent in a bad situation. You shouldn't try to fit standard marvel definitions into this game. While it's still marvel you need to be able to adjust your thinking.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 58,764 mod
    edited January 7
    Dorm's buttons are too slow to start the round with. I wouldn't bother with it because Dorm without spells and meter will just get sat on all day by other rushdown characters. Like Spiderman is one of the only characters with 4 frame jabs and if you have him on you at the start of the round, you literally won't be able to start the round.



    Just go ahead and start the round with Morrigan.



    Also a cool technique I learned from Chris G to start the round vs unga ass characters like Cap Merica, Hulk and Haggar is to walk up right next to someone at the start of the round and then just before the round starts hit tag.

    What this does is it immediately switches your point character out and tags in your partner far behind them. Meaning they're forced to just tap on your assist character at best while you can freely move far away from them. Good way to not get forced into unga if you know you're fighting someone that can snowball the round quickly if you don't get space

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • SepticFir8SepticFir8 Joined: Posts: 12
    Morrigan seems really good for a point character. I have to admit, Ive had a hard time dealing with Morrigans who go nuts with her DP.
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 5,027
    In air DP's are amazing in this game. Shit if you have a good DP conversion character DP's in general really are good.

  • AsuraXgunnerAsuraXgunner Joined: Posts: 3
    Thanks for the advice guys, idk about changing my stone but I will try it out in lab tomorrow. I need to try that switch out tactic in some casuals to see it in action. I usually just start round with walking up to them and dp most people don’t block in the beginning of the round against me in my rank, but when they do switch to Dormammu and either go for a flame carpet or Mind stone mixup. I wish Mind surge had armor on it like space surge.
    Lately I have been running into a lot of players using power surges online and I do not understand why so many people are running it. Not having a hard time against it, but it seems odd that so many teams are trying to use it instead of space and soul.
  • MythicMndMythicMnd Joined: Posts: 7
    flicky wrote: »
    flicky wrote: »
    Something I'm really struggling with is something we haven't talked a whole lot about and that's team dynamics/structure/format. Past Marvel games have been very clear, for instance MvC2 was mainly structured as battery/main/assist each with certain purposes, MvC3 was a little bit different and could possibly be described as shell1/shell2/anchor, but with Infinite I'm honestly not sure how to describe team dynamics in this way, or whether we've even reached the stage where we understand enough to be able to do so.

    I get some of the concepts in this game, but I struggle to understand the overall goal. For instance, it seems for a lot of players matchups don't really matter, or perhaps matchups just can't be defined in a traditional sense. Players favour one particular move, lariat for example, and they base their gameplan around that (spam lariat, switch and win), people don't seem to be thinking about whether Dante is a better matchup against Ultron, or some shit like that, it's as if classic matchups aren't being considered or aren't needed, and that's where I'm lost.

    For example, Sentinel/Storm/Commando is a counter pick to Storm/Sentinel/Commando, you know? There was a clear advantage to playing Sentinel on point sometimes. But in Infinite, I don't see that. I play Winter Soldier mostly, so my mind set is, play the keepaway game, build a bit of Infinity, land my hit confirm and then switch and go in for damage; where as another mind set might be just to walk forward and do qcb+p and switch just for the fuck of it because qcb+p has sick ass properties and is safe with a switch. So I'm kind of lost as to how to approach my team dynamics; what is the purpose of my point character? What is the purpose of my second character? What words do I use to specifically define their purpose? How to I put that into a format?

    That's where I'm blank, I look at the character select and can't make sense of my gameplan because there's so many strategies I can't fit character to character and say "yeah this is a good idea!" I play WinterSoldier/Venom, Winter Soldier has sick hit confirms, Venom has a full screen switch dash, boom easy damage. But that's a classical way of thinking, not an infinite way of thinking, sometimes I just qcb+p in their face on GO and people are like wtf while his armour eats all their button presses, and I think, well what the hell was the purpose of that? How do I format that? It might as well be called team Charlie, Scrub/Dante/Winning.

    I really don't get it...
    Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but if your asking about the termalogy of formatting teams. Would it be Point/Support, Support/Support, Support/Point, or Point/Point? Supporting Characters would help in mix-ups/Damage. Point characters are characters that are focused on neutral. Then we can dive deeper with the stones with the different play styles.

    What I mean is...

    In Marvel 2 team format was very well defined, battery/main/assist or main/main/assist was almost a universal way of constructing a successful team, within reason. For instance, Santhrax (Storm/Sentinel/Commando), Storm was the battery until she had built enough bars to DHC into Sentinel and do the HSF loop to kill a character. MSP (Magneto/Storm/Psylocke), Magneto would build meter for Storm where she'd use her mobility and Hail Storm to annoy and oppress characters. Matrix (Storm/Sentinel/Cyclops), or Team Scrub (Cable/Sentinel/Commando), you get the picture.

    In Marvel 3 things were a little different, teams formed in very powerul shells, for example Morrigan/Doom, Wolverine/Akuma, etc. The point character's roll wasn't necessarily to build meter or stall any more, the point character became the main and the second character became the assist that formed an almost indestructible shell. Also now because of X-Factor the third character was rarely used as an assist because their Lv3 XF was just too damn good to risk killing the character for, so in Marvel 3 that ability to format a team still existed but it had changed somewhat to fit with it's own mechanics.

    Now with Marvel infinite, I don't know how that translates, or even if it translates across at all and we have to come up with new ways of describing a team. I'm going to come back to it again, Winter Soldier, if I want I can play him like Cable and just keep my distance, or if I want I can play him like Psyblade and just throw out his arm at the start of a match because of how good and safe it is with switch. I can choose how I want to start the match, do I want to play neutral? Or do I want to Hail Mary? I have that choice and I don't have to suffer any consequences for it, unlike Marvel 2 where if I throw out Psyblade I might get double snapped and lose Psylocke completely.

    You see how it's changed now? There's no punishment for starting a match like a scrub, in fact now it's good to be a scrub, you can play the game without any matchup knowledge at all and still win as long as you use switch to keep everything unsafe safe. So what now defines the matchup?

    I've said this before but hypothetically I don't think this game is a 2v2 fighter, it's more like a 1.5v1.5 fighter. The reason being is because essentially your two characters form one, in a symbiotic relationship, to be dramatic. But once you lose a character all of that benefit the symbiotic relationship gave you has gone and your remaining character is reduced to half of what it once was (excluding Soul).

    So what is the purpose of your point character? What is the purpose of your second character? How do you bring it back when everything you do is punishable but everything the opponent does is safe? By losing a character you lose more than just their utility, you lose the ability to Hail Mary and have to resort to pure skill based classical methods of approaching the match, instead of just playing like a scrub.

    That's why I'm mind fucked, maybe people just don't understand, but I'm thinking ahead here. Soul Storm is going to be super important, probably the top most tier gem in the game, also I think Power Surge is as well, because if people choose not to roll with Soul Storm they're going to need something to survive the 2v1 matchup, something like a huge hit box with a wall bounce to scare the opponent into rushing in and pressing buttons like a scrub, because the comeback is going to be tough at end game.

    Anyway I'm ranting...

    I think that the game was designed with the intention of disrupting those traditional team patterns. Because most characters are pretty self-sufficient when it comes to performing combos, the structure of your team will depend heavily on your play style. This game is more demanding in that there is a wide variety of characters that are playable(and in different ways to boot) so you will have to know what options your opponent is likely to take at each stage of the game. Tag can some what cover for mistakes, but it is not a crutch. People are using it that way now, but that's only because the game is new. I imagine they will weaken the tag mechanic a bit (especially its offensive potential), but even as it stands now, its not as safe as it seems now.

    Character conservation is important, because as you've said, team synergy is what is most important. One character comebacks are quite difficult. That being said, some characters have a much easier time mounting a comeback than others, Zero and Dante for instance, these characters can have a strong game with extra meter and stone storm. That being said, one should not be losing a character too early in the game because of how punishing this game is. Mistakes can be pretty costly in this game, which is why the designers made it easy to cover them, but a player can only hide mistakes in their game play for so long.

    This is not the kind of game were players can have their shell do the work for them while they get very proficient with one or two characters. In UMVC3, players where often known for mastering one, maybe two characters. For instance, despite the fact that Fchamp one many games off the back of Phoenix, he wasn't really know for his Phoenix play, he was mainly known for his Magneto and Dormmamu. This is because, as an Xfactor lvl3 character,Dark Phoenix was so oppressive that there was not much need to master her the way he mastered other characters. This is not to say that champ was a mediocre Phoenix by any means, just that the system mechanics gave her a kind of inevitability that does not exist in MVCI.

    Also, while there are not clear roles assigned to particular characters as established by players in MVC2 and engineered by designers in MVC3, there are certain game plans which lend themselves to archetypes. The archetypes and your character proficiency will determine how you structure your team,when you tag and what stones you use. I'm sure there are more I haven't thought of, but here are some:

    Zoning: Teams that attempt to control space and capitalize on mistakes in neutral with burst of damage, which they create ample opportunities for. They use space control tools that are not easily reflected. Emphasize evasive neutral. Teams would include combinations of characters such as Dormammu, Hawkeye,Doctor Strange,Iron man Rocket Raccoon, Zero, Sigma, Ultron, Black Widow, Gamora

    Lockdown: These teams aim to pin the opponent in the corner and apply layer after layer of mixups to whittle down the opponents guard. Teams would include combinations of characters such as Rocket Raccoon, Jedah, Black Widow, Zero,Ultron, Strider, Gamora

    Rushdown: These teams aim to apply intense pressure at any point in the mach. They aim to attack the opponent quickly from multiple angles with defensive tools being used mainly to continue offensive pressure. Teams would include characters such as Nova,Ultron,Gamora,Strider,Zero,Dante,Chun Li, Spencer, Ryu, Jedah, Spider Man( A ton of characters fit this archetype)




    There are obviously archetypes I am missing, as well as combinations of the above three, but you see what I am getting at. You can play characters however you want, but some characters facilitate certain gameplans better than others. Furthermore, according to your gameplan it is better to start some characters over others.
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 See you next fight... Joined: Posts: 4,313
    One last tier list for the road
    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/mvci/index.html?tc=ya0-trf1gqg07hci9riheceu9thdgodk56do7hdr2vjlc2ic57beee7zc2bc2xie7hkp7hg4eecigohac2cmc3ji9q917ig42wfz56ie2wdpef7y9rlwc1bc7ib855abc1a89rf1izlv9rexc3h59s-bk5

    Rough order within rows, but aside from the top row there is a LOT of flexibility to move around.

    Anyone in the third row could possibly be considered for top 10.

    Anyone in the fourth row is still a legitimate threat.

    Everyone is a viable, but the bottom two rows take significant effort to actually make them work.
    NNID/XboxLive/Steam: UnSaxon51

    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • wakalakawakalaka Joined: Posts: 186
    Pretty solid, I think Spencer should be bumped up at least two rows though.
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 See you next fight... Joined: Posts: 4,313
    I could easily see him moved up one row, but I just don't think he's better than anyone I put in row 4.
    Granted, I have anti-Spencer bias, so *shrug*
    NNID/XboxLive/Steam: UnSaxon51

    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 5,027
    It's so weird to finally be playing characters most people consider to be in the top 10. Why?
    I've been exposed! Nah, real talk, I wish I had more time to play this game. Shit it seems like a lot of
    people put out full combo videos before I have had the time to learn one half assed combo. I notice a
    player starts playing a new character and two days later that character is fully optimized.

    Damn adulthood, at least my real life execution is on point.
  • CiscoCisco better than you Joined: Posts: 3,381 GOAT
    Holy Shit there is a lot of blogging going on here.

    You all remember the time in where UMVC3 was like 4 months old and then I came in here and suggest Morrigan as a possible top tier due to her having some interesting fly tactics that Sentinel had and then all of you were like "NO NO... DO YOU EVEN OWN THIS GAME, THAT IS DUMB!!"... months later you guys were going off about Top 5's and had viper on them then i returned the Morrigan debate again, this time saying that she has some great chemistry with Doom's missiles? I then ranked her over your Wesker and Viper for top 5 and also inserted Vergil, in where i was attacked and put down again because "if played this game i would know of that Viper has options and Morrigan doesn't".



    The Greatest Poster of Shoryuken - Undefeated in Religion threads
  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 See you next fight... Joined: Posts: 4,313
    edited January 10
    NNID/XboxLive/Steam: UnSaxon51

    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • CiscoCisco better than you Joined: Posts: 3,381 GOAT
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »

    Go further after that. Watch it get renewed.
    The Greatest Poster of Shoryuken - Undefeated in Religion threads
  • Legend IILegend II Living Legend sequel. Joined: Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited January 10
    UnSaxon51 wrote: »

    Decent list.

    Some observations.

    Dormammu is too high. He belongs in the Gamora row. Switch him with Jedah.

    Morrigan is too high. She is Mid. Switch her spot with Monster Hunter.

    Megaman X, Sigma, Thanos, Venom and Capt. Marvel are too low.

    Capt. America is too low. He is Mid and a good one.

    And agreed with the bottom 4.

    The only character in this game that plain sucks is Black Panther.

    Hulk, Ryu and Frank West have some uses.

    Black Panther is just ass.

    Good list even with the discrepancies.
    Never lose your dignity for anyone.
    MvCI: Gamora/Thanos, Gamora/Sigma
    KOF 14: Clark, Kula, Mai and Yuri, Ryuji, Terry
    Street Fighter 5: Laura, Abigail, Kolin
  • coinjamcoinjam Joined: Posts: 5
    Been gone a bit. Here's a gif of what I was talking about earlier in regard to Time VS Space.
    https://imgur.com/gallery/zAkIn

    Also, as a side note, why aren't we seeing more stone whiffs to build meter? I've been messing around with Ultron/Dorm/Mind and its kinda funny. As Ultron one rep of sj, ADU, stone, 214LK, stone, flight, stone, stone, 214LK, AD wherever builds like 10% storm. Drones cover your feet a bit or you can just AD~LP for a quick getaway. As Dorm you can do a similar sequence by replacing drones with a spell charge with the added benefit of teleports to the ground as a safety net. His ADU after sj also puts him ridiculously high past the normal screen barrier. Works with pretty much any stone really, time is great for staying slippery and power is great for covering yourself if they get too antsy with teleports or whatever. Using mind just means I can throw out a ball for the chance to build more storm if I want to without worrying about wasting bar.

    I dunno I feel like runaway in general still needs a lot more exploration.

    Anyways here's my newest video for Jedah storm setups. So far my top 3 characters in time storm are Chun, Nova, and Jedah (in that order.)


  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 58,764 mod
    Yeah I'll look at some of this when I start playing Jedah/BW. They obviously will do great in space and BW especially has some good shit in time so that will be my first team that I can use with multiple stones. I'm sure especially if they're both alive you can do a lot of shenanigans with them with the faster tag recovery in time story.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


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