How often do you replace your directional microswitches?

coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
I have a Hori Rap fightstick with a Sanwa joystick. I average 10 to 30 minutes a day using ken as my main. I have to replace the microswitch board every 6 to 8 months. Does that sound about right or are they failing too quickly? They seem to have a shorter lifespan than I was expecting.
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Comments

  • ausomecrawlausomecrawl Joined: Posts: 77
    Depends on how you play. Are mashing the whole time? Even going crazy I still think 6-8 months is very excessive. I find it hard that all the switches fail at the same time. Which direction is failing?
  • DubonDubon Joined: Posts: 488
    That would mean that in arcades where machines get played 8 hours a day, the switches would have to be replaced every 2 weeks. Seems unlikely. That said, you can do maintenace on your switches. Open them up and remove residue from the plastic moving part.
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    edited August 19
    If you have even the most base competency in [de]soldering, there is zero reason to waste money on a whole new TP-MA assembly every time a directional microswitch goes bye-bye.



    The snap action microswitch needed to be replaced is called either the Sanwa MS-O-2P or Omron V-01-3D5-A. They (like their more expensive TP-MA assembly counterparts) are available at most Japanese arcade parts retailers.
  • DAyalaDAyala Joined: Posts: 51
    Your switches should definitely be lasting much longer then that.
  • gigabytegigabyte Joined: Posts: 631
    Never. I have had my joystick for more than 3 years and I average an hour a day.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Thanks for the replies guys. I figured they should last allot longer. As far as the way I use my joystick, lots of dragons and fireballs and an occasional mash (usually when the switches start failing. I also tend to ride the gate (square) while doing dragons. After remembering something I read in a forum I decided to try something. First, blow the dust off the switch assy with compressed air as there is quit a bit of fine powder which appears to be coming from the actuator to gate contact. Then pry the covers from the microswitches and blast the powder out of the inside of the switches. Get a spray can of DeoxIT D5, it's a metal to metal electric contact cleaner/enhancer that's also safe on plastics. Spray it a couple of times into the open switches then use the compressed air to remove any excess fluid. wipe off any fluid on the outside board and switches and recap them. Activate the switches several times each then reinstall. I did this a day ago and so far, so good. Feels like brand new. The contact enhancer does wonders as I use it on all my electric and electronic devices. I'll let you guys know if and when they start failing.
    I should have known the switches had a problem. I had playstation and dreamcast fighsticks that were heavily used and still worked after all those years without any maintenance. Guess it's because they didn't have gates that shed down into the switches.

    jopamo, are there better switches than the omrons that could be soldered to the boards, ones that don't let in as much debris? Oh, btw, thanks for that vid and where do you get that solder sucking tool?
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    That video is from @Nerrage and was posted many moons ago.

    As far as solder suckers go, that one looks pretty standard. I have an Engineer SS-02 sucker that is the bee's knees. Silicone tips FTW.

    As far as readily accessible switches that would fit within the TP-MA solder points, I know of none. There are the silent gen 2 and gen 3 variants, but they are not sold loose from any retailers.
  • BolSadguyBolSadguy Toronto Stick Modder Joined: Posts: 1,587
    jopamo wrote: »
    That video is from @Nerrage and was posted many moons ago.

    As far as solder suckers go, that one looks pretty standard. I have an Engineer SS-02 sucker that is the bee's knees. Silicone tips FTW.

    As far as readily accessible switches that would fit within the TP-MA solder points, I know of none. There are the silent gen 2 and gen 3 variants, but they are not sold loose from any retailers.

    Not sure about Gen 3, but Gen 2 switches definitely wouldn't work anyway. They require a unique version of the TPMA with different placements for the solder points compared to a traditional TPMA.

    xYtoWLp.jpg
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 302
    edited August 20
    Gen 2&3 pcb have omron d2rv reed switches with SIDE COM (spst-no) PCB terminals, "case/housing side". Proof both gen2 and 3 are side com : https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0748/3745/products/silent_stickcomparison_1024x1024.jpg?v=1490758343
    This side com option is not really an option, it's the stock state, see below.

    Classic omron V switches has PCB terminals BOTTOM COM type, spst-no, also "case side" (as opposed to cover side, with pcb terminals pointing the other way).

    notice the side COM terminal on the silent omron d2rv switches is not connected to ground, it's the other terminal which is. It contrasts with the "classic" JLF pcb with omron V switches, where the bottom COM terminal is connected to ground.
    omron D2RV have different internal "contact form" compared to omron V : d2rv has only two terminals, always on the side, which mimicks the "side com" option. Lowest one serves as COM. With Omron V switches, it is impossible to have one terminal on the side to act as COM.


    why waste time with trying to make a new pcb? just use switches with .187 terminals and get a harness so you can swap switches if you feel like it.
    Post edited by Agieze on
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    Yeah, I forgot about the different pin configs on the silent switches. I posted this a while back

    https://m.imgur.com/a/943vb
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,847
    I just stop using the PCB and go for individually tabbed switches,
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Darksakul wrote: »
    I just stop using the PCB and go for individually tabbed switches,

    How do you do that on a JLF? I know that you can replace switches individually on a Hayabusa.
  • BolSadguyBolSadguy Toronto Stick Modder Joined: Posts: 1,587
    edited August 21
    You just take the microswitches you want to use, put them on the main body and pop the restrictor gate back on. The restrictor gate will hold the switches in place. This is what people did for the 1st generation silent JLFs and for Cherry D44x JLF mods

    EDIT: You can see Bryan from PAS do this here with a set of zippys

  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,847
    edited August 22
    BolSadguy wrote: »
    You just take the microswitches you want to use, put them on the main body and pop the restrictor gate back on. The restrictor gate will hold the switches in place. This is what people did for the 1st generation silent JLFs and for Cherry D44x JLF mods

    EDIT: You can see Bryan from PAS do this here with a set of zippys


    THIS

    Also works with Seimitsu Joysticks as well.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    BolSadguy wrote: »
    You just take the microswitches you want to use, put them on the main body and pop the restrictor gate back on. The restrictor gate will hold the switches in place. This is what people did for the 1st generation silent JLFs and for Cherry D44x JLF mods

    EDIT: You can see Bryan from PAS do this here with a set of zippys


    Thanks BolSadguy. I didn't think you could do that. Do the switches remain tight or do they rattle around due to the loss of circuit board thickness? Also, because the switches are closer to the shafts pivot point as well as being closer to the tapered actuators smaller circumference, the throw should be longer. We're gonna need a larger actuator. I'm using a Kowal 1mm oversize actuator on my JLF and improved my game the most. With this circuit board less mod, I would have to use a larger actuator, but I'm not to fond of using the aluminum ones in the vid with the JLF plastic gate. Seems like it would create more shedding plastic powder to screw with the switches.
  • BolSadguyBolSadguy Toronto Stick Modder Joined: Posts: 1,587
    The switches move without being bound to the circuit board but it's marginal. On some of my JLFs, the entire circuit board rattles slightly. I don't find there's a difference in throw between using the PCB and using the switches desoldered off the PCB. I imagine that if there is a difference in throw, it wouldn't be enough to warrant a bigger actuator.

    That said, PAS does have Nylon actuators. I can't remember if they're available in anything other than 1mm oversize though.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,847
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    BolSadguy wrote: »
    You just take the microswitches you want to use, put them on the main body and pop the restrictor gate back on. The restrictor gate will hold the switches in place. This is what people did for the 1st generation silent JLFs and for Cherry D44x JLF mods

    EDIT: You can see Bryan from PAS do this here with a set of zippys


    Thanks BolSadguy. I didn't think you could do that. Do the switches remain tight or do they rattle around due to the loss of circuit board thickness? Also, because the switches are closer to the shafts pivot point as well as being closer to the tapered actuators smaller circumference, the throw should be longer. We're gonna need a larger actuator. I'm using a Kowal 1mm oversize actuator on my JLF and improved my game the most. With this circuit board less mod, I would have to use a larger actuator, but I'm not to fond of using the aluminum ones in the vid with the JLF plastic gate. Seems like it would create more shedding plastic powder to screw with the switches.

    You can cut the rattle down by applying some rubber washers between the switches and the gate on the JLF. On Seimitsu joysticks its just a matter of tightening the gate down more.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Update, my flushing scenario is working just fine. How do you guys keep the gate to actuator contact dust from screwing with your inputs?
  • ausomecrawlausomecrawl Joined: Posts: 77
    Little gease on the gate and actuator might help. But I don't rude the gate hard so I've never had any issues.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Little gease on the gate and actuator might help. But I don't rude the gate hard so I've never had any issues.

    I've already greased that situation. The only time I ride the gate is the bottom half of the dragon punch ie down down towards. QCF, QCB and 2X QCFs are not ridden for obvious reasons on a square gate.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,847
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Update, my flushing scenario is working just fine. How do you guys keep the gate to actuator contact dust from screwing with your inputs?
    By not unnecessarily grinding.
    Also look into derlin actuators
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Darksakul wrote: »
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Update, my flushing scenario is working just fine. How do you guys keep the gate to actuator contact dust from screwing with your inputs?
    By not unnecessarily grinding.
    Also look into derlin actuators

    OK, I'll ignore the stupid unnecessarily grinding comment as you clearly didn't read my post directly above that was made 1 hour before yours.
    BTW, I'm using the Kowal oversize actuator. Not sure how nylon sheds with the sanwa gate plastic vs delrin. Paradise Arcade has a .5mm oversize delrin actuator that I might try.
    So far, great input guys. Greased gates and delrin actuators. Very helpful. Thank you.
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    edited September 3
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Paradise Arcade has a .5mm oversize delrin actuator that I might try.
    So far, great input guys. Greased gates and delrin actuators. Very helpful. Thank you.

    I highly highly recommend that PAS .5mm actuator. I've tried a literal handful of actuators, and that one checks all the boxes with no compromise.

    I've done fighter and shmup taste tests with stick n00b friends, and they pick the stick with that thing over stock every time. Matching it with their 1.5lb tension spring is also recommended to firm things up a bit without strain. That's the config I now have in all my JLF sticks (silent or not).
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,847
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Darksakul wrote: »
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Update, my flushing scenario is working just fine. How do you guys keep the gate to actuator contact dust from screwing with your inputs?
    By not unnecessarily grinding.
    Also look into derlin actuators

    OK, I'll ignore the stupid unnecessarily grinding comment as you clearly didn't read my post directly above that was made 1 hour before yours.
    BTW, I'm using the Kowal oversize actuator. Not sure how nylon sheds with the sanwa gate plastic vs delrin. Paradise Arcade has a .5mm oversize delrin actuator that I might try.
    So far, great input guys. Greased gates and delrin actuators. Very helpful. Thank you.

    No I read it, I read your little post. My Comment stands.
    Kowal oversize actuator are nylon, the resist breakage like ABS would but they can tear. They still can grind into dust.
    Adding grease will only help for so much, instead of getting lose dust you get grease filled with dust and that grease starts to seize everything.

    Delrin is known as a self lubricating plastic and is highly resistant to wear.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Darksakul wrote: »
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Darksakul wrote: »
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    Update, my flushing scenario is working just fine. How do you guys keep the gate to actuator contact dust from screwing with your inputs?
    By not unnecessarily grinding.
    Also look into derlin actuators

    OK, I'll ignore the stupid unnecessarily grinding comment as you clearly didn't read my post directly above that was made 1 hour before yours.
    BTW, I'm using the Kowal oversize actuator. Not sure how nylon sheds with the sanwa gate plastic vs delrin. Paradise Arcade has a .5mm oversize delrin actuator that I might try.
    So far, great input guys. Greased gates and delrin actuators. Very helpful. Thank you.

    No I read it, I read your little post. My Comment stands.
    Kowal oversize actuator are nylon, the resist breakage like ABS would but they can tear. They still can grind into dust.
    Adding grease will only help for so much, instead of getting lose dust you get grease filled with dust and that grease starts to seize everything.

    Delrin is known as a self lubricating plastic and is highly resistant to wear.

    So, you read my "little" post? Am I still grinding or should I remove the gate?
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 302
    edited September 7
    Tip for beginners : do NOT grease the actuator and gate, it's a joke. The lubricant can get in the switches, and if they happen to be uber expensive or rare models, if the switches are not sealed, they'll just stop making contact. Glad to see others noticed it too.

    Delrin is cool but doesn't "last forever" . In fact virgin delrin and basic delrin copolymers wear a tad more than the nylon grades used in joysticks , in one word it's worse than nylon in that aspect, as for sliding properties, they're practically the same, unless expensive special grades are compared, which is not the case with joystick actuators.

    Nylon deforms faster under load compared to delrin (delrin resists creep and has excellent dimensional stability plus high stiffness compared to vrigin basic polyamide grades) , there are other differences but they're really not important concerning use for actuators. One detail though for DIYers: delrin/acetal is a dream to work with even for beginners, sands and turns cleanly, only it comes with a price. There are excellent nylon grades out there too, but truth be told, with most joystick brands, the grades used are often the cheapest possible.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Agieze wrote: »
    Tip for beginners : do NOT grease the actuator and gate, it's a joke. The lubricant can get in the switches, and if they happen to be uber expensive or rare models, if the switches are not sealed, they'll just stop making contact. Glad to see others noticed it too.

    Delrin is cool but doesn't "last forever" . In fact virgin delrin and basic delrin copolymers wear a tad more than the nylon grades used in joysticks , in one word it's worse than nylon in that aspect, as for sliding properties, they're practically the same, unless expensive special grades are compared, which is not the case with joystick actuators.

    Nylon deforms faster under load compared to delrin (delrin resists creep and has excellent dimensional stability plus high stiffness compared to vrigin basic polyamide grades) , there are other differences but they're really not important concerning use for actuators. One detail though for DIYers: delrin/acetal is a dream to work with even for beginners, sands and turns cleanly, only it comes with a price. There are excellent nylon grades out there too, but truth be told, with most joystick brands, the grades used are often the cheapest possible.

    You are wrong. Greasing the actuator and the gate will coagulate the dust particles so they don't float to the far end of the interior of the micro-switch where the electric contact is made. Oil leaks, and is very mobile. Grease is very stagnant and very immobile. You need to use the same grease that the manufacturers use. Obviously greasing is a short term fix. We need good quality sealed micro-switches. You know, I never had this problem with the old happ arcade joysticks. They were more fluid and allot more durable.
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    edited September 8
    Greasing the gate and actuator on a Japanese joystick is unnecessary and dumb. Sanwa Denshi doesn't do it from the factory. Neither does Seimitsu. If you're hard up for Happ, buy an IL stick.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    jopamo wrote: »
    Greasing the gate and actuator on a Japanese joystick is unnecessary and dumb. Sanwa Denshi doesn't do it from the factory. Neither does Seimitsu. If you're hard up for Happ, buy an IL stick.

    Buy a brain. If a little grease can slow-down powder infiltration, unnecessary and dumb is your situation. I'm hard up for whatever works right.
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    edited September 11
    I don't have to buy a brain. I already have one appears to work better than yours. Here's why:

    The manufacturers (the actual designers and producers) of these products do not lubricate these parts. These products are used in high-stress environments--subject to prolonged impact and friction.

    Sanwa and Seimitsu have been producing this shit for years. I'm sure if omitting lubrication from key high-friction points would incur early failure, they'd ensure customer satisfaction by lubricating all necessary points during manufacture.

    That's logic. It's not rocket science.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    They want to make more money from you. No rocket science involved.
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    edited September 11
    No. They want ensured customer satisfaction, which in turn begets positive market reputation (and brand recognition).
    Shit that breaks too soon doesn't make money...it gives it away to competitors.
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    jopamo wrote: »
    No. They want ensured customer satisfaction, which in turn begets positive market reputation (and brand recognition).
    Shit that breaks too soon doesn't make money...it gives it away to competitors.

    So I guess I won the joystick lotto 4 times. I'm talking about reality and why I created this thread. Shills are not required.
  • jopamojopamo Stuck in Silly-con Valley Joined: Posts: 1,097
    We'll agree to disagree. Live in your ignorance.
  • jaquiojaquio Joined: Posts: 245
    In 5 years using day by day.......never.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,847
    jaquio wrote: »
    In 5 years using day by day.......never.

    ^ This, this 100%.

    Just take care of your stuff and your arcade parts will last for some 20+ years.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • CastigationCastigation S-Rank, Baby! Joined: Posts: 128
    I have quite a few sticks and some arcade machines, hosting weekly gatherings at my place for years and I've never had to ever replace a micro on a joystick, ever.
  • DAyalaDAyala Joined: Posts: 51
    This guy probably plays with his feet or something and kicks the lever around lol.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,373 mod
    coconutz50 wrote: »
    jopamo wrote: »
    Greasing the gate and actuator on a Japanese joystick is unnecessary and dumb. Sanwa Denshi doesn't do it from the factory. Neither does Seimitsu. If you're hard up for Happ, buy an IL stick.

    Buy a brain. If a little grease can slow-down powder infiltration, unnecessary and dumb is your situation. I'm hard up for whatever works right.

    Warned for being a douche.

    Don't act like an idiot when people are trying to give you sound advice.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    DAyala wrote: »
    This guy probably plays with his feet or something and kicks the lever around lol.

    No, I put the stick up my butt and wiggle around to pull off a DP. ;P
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