Harness Your Quan! Zeku General Discussion Thread

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  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,751
    edited October 2017
    Anyone has Zeku framedata, aside from that capcom site?
    DBFZ: A18/Trunks/Yamcha
    GGXrdR2:
     Jam, Baiken
    T7:  Jin
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun, Cody, Guy





  • Midnight_IguanaMidnight_Iguana I play 3d fighters & mkxl. Joined: Posts: 209
    It seems this season has finally ended. Now to lab up.
    Doa/MKXL/Tekken Player.


  • forest31forest31 No throw break! Joined: Posts: 833
    Old Zeku is a heavy hitter, especially his DP! Typical DPs, when they anti air opponents at the DP's peak, do less damage. Not Zeku's DP though! VS opponents' peak jump it still does a huge chunk!

    Same as his odd projectile. Slow, but the damage is about 2.5 times that of a Ryu or Ken fireball! Zeku might be also able to use the QCB+K projectile to anti air opponents who jump from long distances. I think his zoning potential in old form is there!

    VS Zeku, his QCF+P demonflip type move can always be defended against with holding a crouching guard, unfortunately. But there's still a left or right mixup when it crosses up. Young Zeku's run has a (safe?) overhead.

    Overall I'm a bit underwhelmed and the fact that he has 2 stances and therefore a massive movelist is a turnoff. But I never touched Guy in SF4 so I was never a Bushin-ryu fanboy.
    youtube.com/user/ForestTekkenVideos
  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 725
    edited October 2017
    I’m enjoying him but with Guy being my... em... guy in 4 I’m finding young Zeku strange to adjust to. It’s a weird feeling of being very familiar yet completely different. Like HP hozanto under a fireball happens on autopilot, but then I always manage to mess up in the corner by attempting to tatsu which isn’t a thing ha ha

    I find it weird that mp-hp target combo isn’t special cancelable on block, that his stmp is sooooo stubby, jump arc so different and no elbow drop. I’m fighting muscle memory so much it’s crazy. Old Zeku is fiiiine, not having any of those issues. Old Zeku my biggest concern at the moment is that st.mk to st.mp isn’t a true block string, need to stop relying on that pronto.


    Buuuuut if someone has any ideas how to anti air with young Zeku outside of instant air grab enlighten me. That’s the only thing that’s really getting me killed, he seems to have no answer to a huge amount of jump ins. Would it have been so terrible to give him the tatsu or at least a solid button? Are people run stopping under jump ins? dashing? lp Hozanto? I miss Juris stHp so much, even the almighty SFV jab gets stuffed. When I play young Zeku I feel I get jumped in on for free. Maybe that’s the point and I need to be swapping him in and out again asap. I was hoping his v-skill would be the same old and young and be like a v-skill antiair but it’s not :(

    Need to lab up for more garanteed swaps into young actually like combos into v-skill with old Zeku, plenty of ways back to old but not enough back to young.

    Enjoying him for sure, every now and then it all lines up and feels bad ass ha ha :smiley:


    Edit: I talk some nonsense and grammar type poor so fix I did.
    Post edited by Danonino on
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • HBninjaHBninja Joined: Posts: 20
    My Zeku account is sitting at Ultra Silver right now sadly but I've had some luck with L Hozanto > M Palm Strike for AA

    Standing Medium Kick also works well but for less damage

    Standing Hard Kick works too

    Plus there's always jab + dash under
  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 725
    Might start trying lp hozonto for sure. Into v-skill will leave me back at Old Zeku too. st.HK I’ve been avoiding but might lab that later :)
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    St.lp after walk under it's good against crossups, st.hk against jumps from far distance,st.mk is a good option against some front jumpins especially when the opponent has even the dive kick option too. I need to work myself on LP Hozanto,seems good,but I still ended up right behind the opponent without AAing him,definitely I need to adjust. I'm Gucci with TK air grab instead, I can grab the opponent at any height. When you established the ground game the jumps becomes predictable. @Danonino I think switching continuously isn't necessary for AA but even in general. Outside the fun of it I think the less the better, just do it when you wanna change your gameplan.
  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 725
    Will lab it up but being honest the more I’m playing Zeku the more I’m starting to feel like even bushinryu can’t make me like street fighter 5 ha ha
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • Laggu1926Laggu1926 Joined: Posts: 59
    edited November 2017
    So old Zeku Lk Dp is the only Dp-like move in the game that can not only be made safe on block but plus on block as well. Corner upscythe into downscythe knockdown, Lk upscythe>whiff stlp>lk dp hits meaty and is +2 on Block on no quickrise.

    Meaty Lk upscythe in the corner to cover both quickrise and backroll isnt legit. Normally upscythe doesnt hit crouching but there is a frame in every characters wakeup where he is considered standing and thats why it works BUT if you wakeup with a crouching button you bypass that forced standing frame and zeku gets counterhit/upscythe will whiff.

    Old Zeku has a similar OS to the akuma ex demonflip one with the ex flip thing. Not as good as the akuma one though because zekus flip doesnt hit on the way up meaning you are probably getting dped by someone with good reactions. Btw old zeku stmp>stmp OS ex flip can blow some vreversals up(alex,birdie).

    Young zeku seems to me like he can pressure better than old,especially in the corner but is really bad on defence,only saving grace is his 3f crjab. The 5f slower backroll than the rest of the cast might seem good for now because it will blow up auto pilot setups but when people start labbing young zeku specific setups shits gonna be bad midscreen and reeeeally bad in the corner especially with no dp. I mean Gief will probably get legit oki vs young zeku after lariat knockdown cause of the different backroll,good luck with that lol.

    Oh and young zeku sweep is pretty good for low profiling jumpins
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    Laggu1926 wrote: »

    Young zeku seems to me like he can pressure better than old,especially in the corner but is really bad on defence,only saving grace is his 3f crjab. The 5f slower backroll than the rest of the cast might seem good for now because it will blow up auto pilot setups but when people start labbing young zeku specific setups shits gonna be bad midscreen and reeeeally bad in the corner especially with no dp. I mean Gief will probably get legit oki vs young zeku after lariat knockdown cause of the different backroll,good luck with that lol.

    But that's the point about Young Zeku, offense. Defense isn't a real problem if you're referring to the lack of a dp, what he has is enough considering how good his pressure is. Atm I don't spend too much time on setups, we don't know if AE rebalance gonna touch him with buffs/nerfs when the rest of the cast will receive that. Dunno if the +recovery on whiff on some of Zeku moves will be extended to the rest of the cast, it's still all unknown. Actually I'm focused on getting used to his Old form, I need to slow down a bit with him. YZ is pretty easy on the offensive side, the defense will improve alongside with the muscle memory. The character feels different from the rest of the cast,probably Zeku is more a S3 character than the last of S2. We'll see where Zeku gonna be after the rebalance, it's too early now.
  • Laggu1926Laggu1926 Joined: Posts: 59
    edited November 2017
    Oh its on purpose to balance him out,i agree there. Im not saying dont switch to young zeku cause of his bad wakeup or that he needs a dp,that would be dumb,but the problem is with how scramble heavy the game is,if you get knocked down as young zeku youre gonna have to hold that. For example akuma can do meaty crlk os jab OR throw to cover both wakeup timings after hk tatsu in the corner versus young zeku whereas he only gets jab os (chained) crjab versus anyone else (no throw).
    I think youre right,S3 everyone prolly gets the +5 frames on backroll and the extra 5 frames on whiff recovery and capcom is testing stuff with zeku in general just like with S2 chars dps,thats why hes not in line with the rest of the cast.
    All in all as you said its way too early

    Edit:Nevermind about the +5f on backroll,just saw that capcom intends to revert it to normal in the next update
  • yuyinw3sk3ryuyinw3sk3r Joined: Posts: 51
    Danonino wrote: »
    I’m enjoying him but with Guy being my... em... guy in 4 I’m finding young Zeku strange to adjust to. It’s a weird feeling of being very familiar yet completely different. Like HP hozanto under a fireball happens on autopilot, but then I always manage to mess up in the corner by attempting to tatsu which isn’t a thing ha ha

    I find it weird that mp-hp target combo isn’t special cancelable on block, that his stmp is sooooo stubby, jump arc so different and no elbow drop. I’m fighting muscle memory so much it’s crazy. Old Zeku is fiiiine, not having any of those issues. Old Zeku my biggest concern at the moment is that st.mk to st.mp isn’t a true block string, need to stop relying on that pronto.


    Buuuuut if someone has any ideas how to anti air with young Zeku outside of instant air grab enlighten me. That’s the only thing that’s really getting me killed, he seems to have no answer to a huge amount of jump ins. Would it have been so terrible to give him the tatsu or at least a solid button? Are people run stopping under jump ins? dashing? lp Hozanto? I miss Juris stHp so much, even the almighty SFV jab gets stuffed. When I play young Zeku I feel I get jumped in on for free. Maybe that’s the point and I need to be swapping him in and out again asap. I was hoping his v-skill would be the same old and young and be like a v-skill antiair but it’s not :(

    Need to lab up for more garanteed swaps into young actually like combos into v-skill with old Zeku, plenty of ways back to old but not enough back to young.

    Enjoying him for sure, every now and then it all lines up and feels bad ass ha ha :smiley:


    Edit: I talk some nonsense and grammar type poor so fix I did.

    Lp hozanto has upper body invul from frame 1, so it should beat any jump ins aside from deep hitting divekicks and such, st.lp in YZ has a hurtbox over the hitbox so you can't anti air with that, l hozanto does whiff a lot on close jump ins tho, i just jump back lk or somrthing like that for that, and st.lp after a crossunder on a crossup doesnt really work, loses consistently to vega's j.lk crossup, and you get punished by a lights xx special combo
  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 725
    The nostalgia costume would be way nicer if old zeku had the scarf pulled down off his face like his original costume, wonder if there are any button combinations to change any of his outfits. Might test later.
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • HBninjaHBninja Joined: Posts: 20
    Hey what do you guys do against Abigail? His nitro charge is a pain to deal with.
  • cris25cris25 Joined: Posts: 278
    Wasn´t his EX DP supposed to be fully invincible on startup?
    Why the hell am I getting meatied (my EX bar depletes clearly showing Ithe move was going to come out)..

    Also, why do his DPs differ from all others? Capcom standardized all light DPs to be throw invincible, mediums to be invincible to air attacks, and hard to do more damage or to be invincible to attacks from frame 3 or so. For EVERYBODY but him. WHYYYY?
  • SillenderSillender run stop short Joined: Posts: 290
    it is full invul, only thing i could think of is checking your inputs during replays to see if you're doing qcf kk instead accidentally
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    HBninja wrote: »
    Hey what do you guys do against Abigail? His nitro charge is a pain to deal with.

    Didn't played against Abi being Zeku, but what about flip grab special? I need to test it. Dunno in young form.
  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 725

    Against Abigail is the only matchup where I’m using ex back scythe in neutral. It seems to mess him up a lot.
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    So.... on paper, zeku appears to be one of the best characters in the game:

    Sooo many things:

    Good tick throw
    Gap closing specials
    Longest range fast poke in the game besides sim
    AA does great damage
    Frame traps galore
    Ridiculous damage in both stances from medium confirms
    Has a reversal in his ranged stance
    Has a command grab from his gap closer
    His gap closer/repressure tool in old stance can crossup and while the opponent is looking for the crossup he can use the command grab instead



    The only negative I know of for him is that he has slowish walkspeed... but nowhere near compared to nash bison and sim.

    So what are his negative points?
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • SanjoSanjo Joined: Posts: 83
    edited November 2017
    Dime wrote: »
    So.... on paper, zeku appears to be one of the best characters in the game:

    Sooo many things:

    Good tick throw
    Gap closing specials
    Longest range fast poke in the game besides sim
    AA does great damage
    Frame traps galore
    Ridiculous damage in both stances from medium confirms
    Has a reversal in his ranged stance
    Has a command grab from his gap closer
    His gap closer/repressure tool in old stance can crossup and while the opponent is looking for the crossup he can use the command grab instead



    The only negative I know of for him is that he has slowish walkspeed... but nowhere near compared to nash bison and sim.

    So what are his negative points?

    The fact that he is 2 different characters.
    "Good tick throw" - young zeku only. Old zeku has more push back on his normals and slower walk speed.
    "Gap closing specials" both the flip for old Z, and run for young Z, are too slow and easily reactable to be used in neutral.
    "Longest range fast poke in the game" I assume you mean koku hk. It starts in 26f (projectile) and has 30f of recovery. If that is fast....
    "AA does great damage"- old zeku - you mean off of a CC cr.hp, because back gram is too slow to be used as an AA (15f). - young zeku - lp hozanto ? In both stances, it's range specific and doesn't work from mid-close range, and both are slow (10f and 12f)
    "Frame trap galore" old zeku's frame traps sucks, really. Young zeku's has very strong frame traps BUT stubby normals and too much push back which means you only have one chance to frame trap the opponent.
    "Ridiculous damage in both stance from medium confirms" - it's true he can deal 240 from a medium IF he is close enough (point blank) or it WILL whiff (a lot) due to the lack of range of his normals.
    "Has a reversal in his ranged stance" yes, old zeku has a reversal with his ex dp and it does 0 stun (odd), and if it's blocked, he is dead.
    "Has a command grab from his gap closer" - you play Laura and you call that a command grab ? Just aa the flip (super easy) or duck. None of his following moves hit overhead.

    My main problem with zeku is his stubby normals. He really lacks range. It damages his frame trap game, his shimmy game, his footsie game and his pressure.
    I also feel like his AA are not that great especially against cross-ups. Old zeku has his dp but it is 7f and is range dependant. If you whiff or it's blocked, you are dead. His cr.hp is 10f and is good, but won't work for close jumps. He also has his st.mp but it trades a lot and loses to jumps that are over his head. Young zeku's AA is st.mk. It's quite good but loses to strong jump-in attacks.
    And finally, and I really don't get this, how come his jumping normals are so bad ?? I mean, first of all, the angles are weird (hitting upward most of the time). Secondly, his only real jumping attacks in both stances are j.mk and j.hk, which only have 4 freackin active frames ! Not mentioning the small hit box his cross-ups have. Is this also some tests for AE ? Like the +5f recovery young zeku has on his powerful buttons (st.hp, cr.hp, st.hk) and lp hozanto ?
    It really feels like Zeku is a test character for the season to come.

    But yeah, suuure, "on paper, zeku appears to be one of the best characters in the game".

    PS : I REAAALLY do believe that Laura IS one of the best characters in the game and I'm ready to discuss that with any of you.
    Post edited by Sanjo on
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    Sanjo wrote: »
    Dime wrote: »
    So.... on paper, zeku appears to be one of the best characters in the game:

    Sooo many things:

    Good tick throw
    Gap closing specials
    Longest range fast poke in the game besides sim
    AA does great damage
    Frame traps galore
    Ridiculous damage in both stances from medium confirms
    Has a reversal in his ranged stance
    Has a command grab from his gap closer
    His gap closer/repressure tool in old stance can crossup and while the opponent is looking for the crossup he can use the command grab instead



    The only negative I know of for him is that he has slowish walkspeed... but nowhere near compared to nash bison and sim.

    So what are his negative points?

    The fact that he is 2 different characters.
    "Good tick throw" - young zeku only. Old zeku has more push back on his normals and slower walk speed.
    "Gap closing specials" both the flip for old Z, and run for young Z, are too slow and easily reactable to be used in neutral.
    "Longest range fast poke in the game" I assume you mean koku hk. It starts in 26f (projectile) and has 30f of recovery. If that is fast....
    "AA does great damage"- old zeku - you mean off of a CC cr.hp, because back gram is too slow to be used as an AA (15f). - young zeku - lp hozanto ? In both stances, it's range specific and doesn't work from mid-close range, and both are slow (10f and 12f)
    "Frame trap galore" old zeku's frame traps sucks, really. Young zeku's has very strong frame traps BUT stubby normals and too much push back which means you only have one chance to frame trap the opponent.
    "Ridiculous damage in both stance from medium confirms" - it's true he can deal 240 from a medium IF he is close enough (point blank) or it WILL whiff (a lot) due to the lack of range of his normals.
    "Has a reversal in his ranged stance" yes, old zeku has a reversal with his ex dp and it does 0 stun (odd), and if it's blocked, he is dead.
    "Has a command grab from his gap closer" - you play Laura and you call that a command grab ? Just aa the flip (super easy) or duck. None of his following moves hit overhead.

    My main problem with zeku is his stubby normals. He really lacks range. It damages his frame trap game, his shimmy game, his footsie game and his pressure.
    I also feel like his AA are not that great especially against cross-ups. Old zeku has his dp but it is 7f and is range dependant. If you whiff or it's blocked, you are dead. His cr.hp is 10f and is good, but won't work for close jumps. He also has his st.mp but it trades a lot and loses to jumps that are over his head. Young zeku's AA is st.mk. It's quite good but loses to strong jump-in attacks.
    And finally, and I really don't get this, how come his jumping normals are so bad ?? I mean, first of all, the angles are weird (hitting upward most of the time). Secondly, his only real jumping attacks in both stances are j.mk and j.hk, which only have 4 freackin active frames ! Not mentioning the small hit box his cross-ups have. Is this also some tests for AE ? Like the +5f recovery young zeku has on his powerful buttons (st.hp, cr.hp, st.hk) and lp hozanto ?
    It really feels like Zeku is a test character for the season to come.

    But yeah, suuure, "on paper, zeku appears to be one of the best characters in the game".

    PS : I REAAALLY do believe that Laura IS one of the best characters in the game and I'm ready to discuss that with any of you.

    Ok first of all, thank you for conversing with me :) I really wanted to see what others were seeing about him to know how they felt, and now that you post this, I know. So on to your points, because you seem to be kinda misinformed for the most part (nothing against you at all it happens to the best of us)

    As a former gen main, his 2 stances are a boon for me personally because I like having lots of moves and tools at my disposal, I can however see it being a disadvantage for some people. That really sucks for them.

    Old zeku has a tick throw that is just as good as young. Cr.lp>throw doesn't require him to walk forward in old stance and it frame traps against 3 frame jabs.

    His flip special in neutral is a great way to get in overfireballs and moves of that nature. And personally I don't think it's that easy to react to if the opponent is also looking for Koku and dashins and stance changes threatening yolo slides overheads and run stops... all of which get you in. (Though admittedly I don't use the flip to get in randomly... don't need to, koku is that good)

    I also think his moveset is great upclose, you can't just use his moves on autopilot but he has lots of ways to make his opponent second guess any defense they want to use.

    26 frame startup for a move with that kind of range is pretty damn fast. It's an excellent wiff punisher as well in the mk version and it makes people not want to press buttons and makes them like to jump towards him into his excellent AA, because it's such a great wiff punisher it makes people not want to press pre emptive buttons as much and allows him easier dash in offense both during blockstrings and in neutral. I get more dash up throws and dash up st.mk CH with him than I have with any other character.


    His AA is amongst the best in the game:

    Chun AA = st.lk and it does 40 damage, her BHK does like 80-90
    Most characters have normal AA's and those do 80-100 damage and startup slow.
    Old zeku has HK dp and that does 120 damage... but it doesn't stop there. Combo it into super for crazy damage that not a whole lot of characters can do as AA.

    Young has LP hozanto and L air grab and ex air grab, ex air grab starts up in 4 frames, does 160 damage and gives oki afterwards if you have v trigger.

    Old zekus frame traps are bonkers good:

    Cr.lp>throw, hits 3 frame button mashers.
    St.mk>st.lp and st.mp>st.lp hits 3 framers and confirms into qcf lp... but no conversion from the CH st.lp unless you want to guess the conversion, still though, st.mk is most used in other places that I will point out in a sec.
    St.mp>st.mp good CH conversion. St.mp into st.lp or st.lk is good for confirms into dp or fireball respectively.
    Cr.lp>cr.hp is a GREAT CH fish against players that like to delay tech because it's 10 frames of startup will hit the last frames of delay tech and give the opponent plenty of time to hit a button.

    Why would the opponent do a delay tech there? Because your cr.lp>throw beats their jab and cr.lp,st.mp beats moves timed a bit slower. You as old zeku have a ton of confirm options.

    What about his shimmy game? Ridiculous man:

    Cr.hp or st.hp xx ex Teki xx koku does 292 damage for a shimmy and only goes up from there. If you don't want to be -2 on block just don't cancel or cancel into ex koku for +1 or -1 but either way he's safe and at distance.

    Also, cr.lp, CH cr.lp,st.mp xx ex teki xx hk koku does 277

    Cr.lp>microwalk CH cr.lp,st.mp,st.lk xx DP works and your microwalk doesn't have to be much at all... this is REALLY good.

    His reversal... same as any other reversal...you get blocked you get owned. This isnt something bad about zeku, at all.

    If all you do is duck against his flip, then all you are doing is giving him more chances at offense. Ducking is NOT a solution.

    AAing is the solution, but with everything I've said here.. if you are AAing the flip any kind of well it means I'm being to predictable or you're concentrating on shutting it down and allowing me to do all my other gross shit (which is a win for me) Yeah, it's not something you just whore out willy nilly like a 10 inch dong... but I digress.

    Anywho, like I said, thanks for giving me your reasons for why people think he's not great. Allows me to move forward with him now. I was wondering if they were seeing something I wasn't. Turns out that doesn't seem to be the case.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    The air grab after the EX Palm grab is crazy, very good job @Slaynman :smile:

    I need to study more pros playing Zeku, especially to learn the perfect rhythm and build my own gameplan with him. After 4 hours offline matches with some friends I've learned I don't need to play too defensively in Old form, isn't easy to contain rushdown characters like Cammy and Necalli, at least for me. With the latter we need to have our frame traps ready to kill his 3f buttons, in Young form the Palm is tremendously effective. I'm gonna labbing more today, Zeku seems a character who need a continuous work to unleash all his potential.
  • LosLos Joined: Posts: 943
    I was reading FAT and it says that young form's cr hp has a hitbox to hurtbox ratio similar to bison's cr lp. That could be good for anti airing, even though it starts in 10 frames
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    Los wrote: »
    I was reading FAT and it says that young form's cr hp has a hitbox to hurtbox ratio similar to bison's cr lp. That could be good for anti airing, even though it starts in 10 frames

    Didn't test it, but LP Hozanto seems to cover that spot, so I'm good with it. Question, what's your favorite combo starter with Yung Z? I'm trying to use st.lk more because that +3 on block is too sweet to be left behind, but st.mp feels more consistent.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    NCK_Feroce wrote: »
    Los wrote: »
    I was reading FAT and it says that young form's cr hp has a hitbox to hurtbox ratio similar to bison's cr lp. That could be good for anti airing, even though it starts in 10 frames

    Didn't test it, but LP Hozanto seems to cover that spot, so I'm good with it. Question, what's your favorite combo starter with Yung Z? .
    Easily cr.mp:

    Less pushback than st.mp
    Can be canceled from
    Links into st.mp target combo
    Links into st.lp target combo
    Can frame trap against 3 framers with cr.mp,CH cr.lp,cr.mp xx slide

    So basically if they start trying to call out your 4 frame gap between cr.mp and st.mp then you can just start to call them out with a cr.lp CH combo.

    But tbh with zeku it’s all about mixing up your blockstrings and confirms. He’s got so many that you probably shouldn’t be spamming any one string to much, just keep making them guess your strings and staggers and confirms...easier said than done, but it’s probably how the game is meant to be played or at the very least zeku.

    He’s got lots of stuff to keep the opponent guessing about when to press buttons against him since he has so many moves that are plus and confirms, in both stances.



    Imho YZ is all about ex run mixups and frame traps.


    Old Zeku is all about koku neutral, bushin flip pressure and frame traps.

    Both stances are about mixing it up.

    Old has easy on block ways to get to young up close, young doesn’t need any easy way to get to old since all he has to do is jump backwards.

    Old is a mix between doing his own thing upclose and transitioning into young with St.HP xx transform which is plus one on block.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • LosLos Joined: Posts: 943
    Dime wrote: »
    NCK_Feroce wrote: »
    Los wrote: »
    I was reading FAT and it says that young form's cr hp has a hitbox to hurtbox ratio similar to bison's cr lp. That could be good for anti airing, even though it starts in 10 frames

    Didn't test it, but LP Hozanto seems to cover that spot, so I'm good with it. Question, what's your favorite combo starter with Yung Z? .
    .

    This.
    Cr lp is also good because it lets you tick throw, shimmy, confirm into st lp TC, and cr mp on ch
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    Using cr.mp as a combo/blockstring starter feels natural and I do already, what isn't still is using cr.lp right after it to beat 3f spam. I've noticed I can do cr.mp again after cr.lp CH,but there's nothing more outside EX Hozanto. Maybe I need to lab more around that.
  • HBninjaHBninja Joined: Posts: 20
    cr mp seems to cover a lot of oki situations as well. that corner pressure too cancelling cr mp into M or H Bushin Sho (palm strike).
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    NCK_Feroce wrote: »
    Using cr.mp as a combo/blockstring starter feels natural and I do already, what isn't still is using cr.lp right after it to beat 3f spam. I've noticed I can do cr.mp again after cr.lp CH,but there's nothing more outside EX Hozanto. Maybe I need to lab more around that.

    You can combo cr.mp into slide easily.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    HBninja wrote: »
    cr mp seems to cover a lot of oki situations as well. that corner pressure too cancelling cr mp into M or H Bushin Sho (palm strike).

    I was in training testing these yesterday and his Palm is amazing, better than I thought. Even midscreen we could create very ambiguous traps depending on the normal cancelled into Palm. The backward movement of it catches a lot of people right during their whiffed buttons, it's very interesting. Max range st.HPxx EX Sho could beat 3f buttons and give us room for comboing after. Maybe even MP Sho could iirc.
  • SPECTERLIGHTSPECTERLIGHT METRO CITY NINJUTSU Joined: Posts: 769
    What, if any, frame gaps are you all using?
    I'm wondering if 2 frame gaps in frame trapping are worthwhile.
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    edited November 2017
    What, if any, frame gaps are you all using?
    I'm wondering if 2 frame gaps in frame trapping are worthwhile.

    Me personally, I’ve never found 2 and 3 frame gaps very worthwhile from lights to mediums. It’s rare to have someone mashing that hard to where they get CH consistently in those kinds of small gaps.

    I was actually thinking of writing a theory primer/tutorial on frame traps and stagger pressure. My last post in the chun forum was basically a treatise in that subject... and got no likes at all so, yeah, probably won’t be doing that, especially when my stagger pressure isn’t the best (or the worst)

    For me, the gaps that I try to use are varied and usually aren’t frame specific because I’m always trying to turn nothing into something... but as an example:

    Cr.lp,st.mp is my most used frame trap. Good all around frame trap with regards to safety and confirming if the cr.lp was a CH... plus the cr.lp sets up for tick throws and microwalk (stagger pressure)

    My next frame trap is cr.lp,st.mk... bigger gap and more risky, but bigger rewards on hit... but it doesn’t usually hit, but the gap is big and if it gets blocked it tells me a lot about my opponents current habits... means I can probably get a tick throw in or a microwalk something in.

    My frame trap after that, that I don’t use that much because it’s pretty risky to abuse, is cr.lp,cr.hp which is the biggest gap I use outside of microwalks.

    These are all great frame traps that I use to keep my opponent on their toes about what kind of gap I’m using.

    My microwalk pressure usually consists of cr.lp, microwalk cr.lp,st.mp

    Or cr.lp, microwalk st.mp

    Or st.mp microwalk st.mp.

    My frame traps after mediums are

    St.mp,st.lp
    And st.mk, st.lp

    I tend to confirm the st.mk into st.lp on block or st.mp on hit, or at least I try.

    Once players get really conditioned to just block is when I start to tick throw them.

    If they start to get conditioned to jab at weird timings I do like a push out via a jab and a medium then I microwalk back or stay in place and do st.hk looking for the CC.

    My pressure leaves a lot to be desired but my epiphany if there was one to be had was to use stagger pressure normals at ranges where my normals can’t confirm, but can just do damage... you get predictable with pressure if you are always trying to stagger into confirm range, and hitting with a naked cr.mk or cr.mp might not do much, but it adds up and sets up for your bigger more risky microwalks. If the opponent is content with getting hit by the small damage is when I start to bring out the CC normals because even on block a knowledgeable opponent identifies the risk of pressing buttons there in the future and that sets up for better pressure via bigger microwalks, plus zekus st.hk is a premier CC normal at only -2 on block.

    I also don’t go in for using slide into v trigger. My v trigger activations are all Old Zeku cr.mk and cr.mp xx activate. These normals are good for hitting low and wiff punishing respectively.

    All the above is for Old Zeku. I’m not really using the young man just yet. Want to get my Old Zeku nice for a month or so before I start to really get into YZ.


    -edit

    A pushout blockstring I’m working on is cr.lp,st.mp,st.lk,st.hk. Done from point blank the st.hk will make contact with the opponent. I say I’m working on it because I’m working on the different parts of CH optimisation the string gives, as well as finding places in the string to get in microwalks and figure out what has the highest potential for pressure and CH confirmation... like after the st.lk I can walk forward a tad and st.hk. The reason for this is because the opponent is more likely to try to reactively press a button from that range seeing a forward walk.... bla bla bla.
    Post edited by Dime on
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • LosLos Joined: Posts: 943


    Based jibbo dishing out tech
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    What, if any, frame gaps are you all using?
    I'm wondering if 2 frame gaps in frame trapping are worthwhile.

    All depends. I've noticed how some characters like Necalli loves to mash 3f lp's after Yung Zeku cr.mp. So now doing cr.lp after our medium it's a good option. I prefer to focus on punish mashers with fierce buttons or palm atm, but winning with cr.mp,CH.cr.lp xx lp Hozanto,lp Sho xx CA is so sweet.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    Dime wrote: »
    What, if any, frame gaps are you all using?
    I'm wondering if 2 frame gaps in frame trapping are worthwhile.

    Me personally, I’ve never found 2 and 3 frame gaps very worthwhile from lights to mediums. It’s rare to have someone mashing that hard to where they get CH consistently in those kinds of small gaps.

    As luck and egg on my face would have it, once my stagger pressure got really good with zeku, people started to mash the 3 frame normals so I’ve had to incorporate small gaps in my gameplay.

    My confirmation sucks though so I’m not able to convert consistently and zekus amount of bnbs you need to know makes confirmation that much harder.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce Makoto, Capcom plz Joined: Posts: 4,044
    Yeah,learning practically 2 characters at once has even disadvantages, hitconfirms is one of them. Go for 3f kill traps vs every character with 3f buttons, there's no doubt they will use it.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    NCK_Feroce wrote: »
    Yeah,learning practically 2 characters at once has even disadvantages, hitconfirms is one of them. Go for 3f kill traps vs every character with 3f buttons, there's no doubt they will use it.

    Not necessarily. No one actually used them against me previously. People that played against me pretty much only did delayed tech and walk backwards and no tech.

    I have to teach people to press buttons against me by doing staggers and sometimes shimmies otherwise there’s no reason for a good opponent to ever do anything but delayed tech.

    The thing about delayed tech is that microwalk pressure “beats” it by allowing you more pressure in the huge gap they are delay teching in. So I usually start out with tick throws against my opponents till they start to delay tech then I start to use microwalks to pressure their delay tech, then after that they usually either start to walk backwards or start mashing jab so that’s when I usually start with the cr.lp,cr.mk string just to hit them low, and the cr.lp,st.lp string to hit their jab. Problem is the CH tends to push me to far out for confirmation... which fucking sucks.

    I’ve also started to incorporate st.hk as a CC fish after like 3 blocked pokes in a pokestring or so.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,586
    LOL... don’t know why I never noticed this but zeku has one of the easiest bnbs in the game as far as confirmation:

    Cr.lp x2, st.lp xx lk koku... works against standing and crouching ken... don’t know if it works against the entire cast but this gives zeku some really good confirmation just do cr.lpx2 and if it hits do st.lp xx lk koku. If it’s blocked you have more than enough time to see it and go into stagger or pushout blockstrings.

    Best thing ever about this string is that it sets up perfect spacing for zeku to do “safe” on block koku as it will be spaced very far out. And zeku has a very nice “mixup” after 2 blocked cr.lp:

    1. Microwalk st.mp (confirm it) st.lk xx dp

    2. Or walk forward a tad to show the throw and shimmy the opponent (works pretty well because of the pronounced walk before the throw)

    3. Delay st.lp xx koku... this will catch people mashing buttons and knock them down making them respect your gaps.

    4. Walk backwards a tad and st.lk xx koku gives a bigger yet safer gap and combos on CH.

    This can literally be your entire gameplan while throwing in small things here and there. This knockdown also puts zeku outside of throw range on wakeup so just dashing up and blocking against 3 frame characters is much safer than normal, allowing zeku to keep close to the opponent if he wants and putting way out of jab range if the opponent backroll which means zeku is safe to the opponents mashed moves.

    This is the shit, for real.

    Just tested against karins and cammys small hurt box and it works against them as well, so it probably works against most characters. This is the first light x 3 jab confirm in the game that works even on block (most characters that can do this, and they are few, have their last light wiff on standing or crouching opponents, or simply dong have good specials to confirm into. Zekus special has the range, it has the autopilot, and it knocks down. This is perfect and shades of sf4.

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • HBninjaHBninja Joined: Posts: 20
    interesting... just to add, not sure if it helps, but CH cr.lp, st.mp xx M koku is a pretty nice little counter hit combo and it oki's into the same combo when you dash up against a normal quickrise 3f.

    might add another dimension to your cr.lp x2, st.lp xx L koku strat
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