Spark/SparkCE Optical Joystick Sensor for JLF

Toodles

BETA TESTERS FOR NEW SPARKCE NEEDED! Details: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/t.22310/page-20#post-6538801

Sparks are in stock and shipping!

-Buy now via paypal to be shipped out: $55 each, plus shipping ($6 for priority mail shipping in the US, $12 for Canada/Mexico, $14 for everywhere else), shipping price is good for up to 6 Sparks.

As soon as stock is replenished, ordering will be possible through the Paypal checkout page here:
http://www.godlikecontrols.com/order.html

Please also be aware that I dont have a welcome sheet for these yet; these are a small bag with the Spark, and a1 meter cable for the Spark power . If you're a techno-peasant, you may want to want until guides and stuff are available to work from.

FAQs:

Q: What is it?
A: Spark is a optical sensor board for Sanwa JLF joysticks. It replaces the normal 'clicky' microswitch board, and instead uses infrared LEDs to detect the movement in the joystick.

Welcome Sheet: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/Spark_Welcome.pdf

Gasp

how difficult would the soldering be?

Toodles

all of the soldering is thru-hole; no surface mount parts at all. Easier than hacking pads.

Gasp

eh one more thing is the kit to convert someones pre-existing sanwa or is it will it come with a whole new sanwa

Toodles

The completed PCB and black housing that goes on top (so its the right height), a 5 pin connector and pins to go in it, and a 3 pin connector and a pin to go in it. The rest of the JLF is not included; just everything you'd need to remove the microswitch board and put the flash in its place; just like the flash kits used to be, but with no sticker or shaft cover.

To install it in a stick that already has an original sanwa flash: remove the power connector, remove the 5 pin connector, remove the clear restrictor plate, remove the original flash. Put in new flash, and reasmble. The power connector and the 5 pin direction connector will be the same as the original.

To install it on a stick that already has a non-flash sanwa: Take a length of wire and crimp one of the connector pins on it. Put the pin into the 3 pin connector (middle hole). Solder other end of the wire to the power line of your pcb. Remove the old microswitch board, put the flash in its place, and reconnect everything.

Gasp

okay cool well using price comparisons (ultimate<->p360) and getting prices for sanwas JLFs id say


1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$45 roughly
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$55
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
$40
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
$50
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
2 to 3 per order for personal and maybe more if i become a stick builder

how much were flash sticks when they were available?

Toodles

Dont recall specifically, but I believe around $30 (kit, no JLF). I know I bought the last one Himura had for $50.

Thanks for replying. MORE INPUT NEEDED! If you're reading this, post!

Unknown

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$40
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$45
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
$30
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
$35
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
1 almost immediately, and would likely buy one or two more sometime down the road. DC-DC version as it would save me a hell of a lot of trouble in designing an external power source.

This would be great to see, especially with the chip to regulate the voltage. The only reason I haven't modded my SFAC stick with a P360 yet is because of voltage issues.

Crunch

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$40
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$60
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
$40
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
$60
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
2

Really don't need the DC-DC converter as I'd just be using the sticks on my cabs.

Axel Kelly

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$40
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$50
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
N/A (I would only buy them if they had DC-DC)
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
N/A (see above)
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
2 with DC-DC

Toodles

Much appreciated everyone so far. Keep 'em coming.

Unknown

1. 20$ at most considering that it doesn't come with the sanwa joystick
2. 30$
3. 20$ minus whatever the DC-DC converter costs
4. 30$ minus whatever the DC-DC converter costs
5. 4

Unknown

Button_m4sh, post: 1473180 wrote:

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$45 roughly
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$55
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
$40
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
$50
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
2 to 3

What he said.

akuma001

i would only buy the the ready to use soldered piece at around 50-60.

would get 1 first to see if i liked it.

i've never used a flash before though and was wondering how different is the tension compared to the regular microswitch based jlf? i know the microswitches are a big part of the feel of the jlf due to their close click to the neutral spot of the stick giving it that light but firm spring to center and small dead zone. how does yours compare?

Toodles

remove the microswitch board from your stick and test it. That's what it feels like. No click, no resistance from the microswitches. The only resistance is the spring. Range of motion is the same because that's caused by the restrictor plate.

Sincere thanks to everyone whos posted so far. If you haven't replied, please do so. Disagree with other's posts, tell me I'm a moron, say a kit is a stupid idea; whatever, just be honest.

Mayhem

How difficult would it be to put together a do-it-yourself kit? Although soldering seems easy, I am assuming the optical components would have to be fitted with great precision to work correctly...?

I considered a MAX619 step-up converter for my DualShock project boxes but a MAX631 in the stick seems like an even better idea. I plan on putting in LEDs as well though so for me it might be better to have the converter separate from the optics PCB, or perhaps you could return regulated 5 V through one of the unused pins? (And for convenience ground on the last pin.)

Jake

Really would like a flash kit but only 1 here for me.

I'd pay $40-50 for the stuff minus the JLF. Doing a little soldering is no problem.

Taiki

the kit is an awesome idea toodles.

I might not buy one because I quite like my clickyness on my stick... But if it's cheap enough...

The price i'm willing to pay would be whatever you decide. Parts, manufacturering, your time, etc..

Toodles

Mayhem, post: 1473191 wrote:

How difficult would it be to put together a do-it-yourself kit? Although soldering seems easy, I am assuming the optical components would have to be fitted with great precision to work correctly...?

I considered a MAX619 step-up converter for my DualShock project boxes but a MAX631 in the stick seems like an even better idea. I plan on putting in LEDs as well though so for me it might be better to have the converter separate from the optics PCB, or perhaps you could return regulated 5 V through one of the unused pins? (And for convenience ground on the last pin.)

If it looks anywhere close to ok, it'll work, no precision needed at all. The through holes are lined up, and the pcb manufacturers are quite precise. The LED emits 1/2 power at about 11 degrees off of center; even if you bent the hell outta the LED or phototransister, you could bend it back, and if it 'looks' straight, it should be good enough.

Having one of the three pin connecter be GND is doable ; the original did. The other for 5v out could be done too. Ill keep it in mind.

Paik4Life

I think this is a pretty good idea. I personally wouldn't buy one because I have 2 Flashes myself and 4 or 5 ASCII optical units, but anyone who is even remotely interested in seeing what a Flash is like should jump on the offer. Good luck to you.

~Paik

shrimpnoodles

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$45 roughly
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$50
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
$40
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
$50
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
maybe 1 because I already have jap optical stick.

quick question to you toodles. how about selling the DC-DC converter by itself? it would greatly help those that want p360. I know I would get one. right now I have a p360 that I tried wiring up to agetec PCB but it still won't hit corners AT ALL because the agetec PCB direction on the pad is ~4.11 V and the blue wire is 4.81 V. now I don't know what to do. anyone able to help is greatly appreciated?

Toodles

If you need just a DC-DC converter, paypal me $15 to toodlesdc@yahoo.com and I'll send you one when the parts get here. Really, its dead simple. 3 parts. The MAX631 can be sampled from Maxim for free (http://maxim-ic.com) and the inductor and capacitor you need are hella common and cheap. Put them together on a little board and you're done. Check the datasheet for the MAX631 and look at the first schematic ('typical application') and you'll see.

If there ends up being room on the large pcb boards I can't use for flash, I'll use it up with separate DC-DC converters. I was wondering if any p360 users would want it.

Unknown

Wow, a lot of people are willing to pay $40+ for a DIY kit?

I don't have a flash but I do have some P360s and from seing what the PCB in those look like, I'm guessing the components on the flash PCBs costs around 5-10 dollars. Are you really willing to pay 4x more than what it's worth?

Toodles

Ya see, that's why I love capitalism. Wanna make some money Burning Vigor? Get off the sofa and beat me to it! Do it better. Do it cheaper. If you could make these for the 5-10 dollars you quoted, you could sell them easily for $20 and be making 100-300% profit. Hell, if you do, I'll be your first customer. PLEASE do so. Paying you for a tested design with professionaly etched/silkscreened/soldermasked PCB, and custom molded top so that it fits snugly in my JLF, and exact same 5 and 3 pin header the original used so no modding is needed to use it, would be a serious load off of my mind and save my ass a ton of work.

As soon as kits are printed and up for sale, the full schematics and layout and build of materials will be put up for anyone to use. You'll be free to use those and make your own without paying me a dime.

Matarick

I have a standard first generation RAP. Is it possible to swap the JLF-TP-8Y-SK PCB with the solution you are talking about?

If so then I will be in Flash Stick heaven.

Axel Kelly

Burning Vigor, post: 1473198 wrote:

Are you really willing to pay 4x more than what it's worth?

No.

But the labor involved in making it all work is worth at least $30 to me.

Toodles

Matarick, post: 1473200 wrote:

I have a standard first generation RAP. Is it possible to swap the JLF-TP-8Y-SK PCB with the solution you are talking about?

Toodles, post: 1473179 wrote:

To install it on a stick that already has a non-flash sanwa: Take a length of wire and crimp one of the connector pins on it. Put the pin into the 3 pin connector (middle hole). Solder other end of the wire to the power line of your pcb. Remove the old microswitch board, put the flash in its place, and reconnect everything.

filler

Unknown

umbrellastyle, post: 1473201 wrote:

No.

But the labor involved in making it all work is worth at least $30 to me.

Labor is another story, what I'm talking about is the DIY kit which is only the components and instructions.

I thought this guy was doing this because he's a fan of the sanwa flash sticks but now it seems like he's gotten greedy and wants to make big bucks and retire off of this.

Good luck with that. I'll just stick with regular sanwas.

Toodles

Burning Vigor, post: 1473203 wrote:

Good luck with that. I'll just stick with regular sanwas.

Thanks, I hope it goes well. I'll put you down as '5. How many would you expect to buy?: 0'.

thaBadGuy

cost

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
35 - 40
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
35-40
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
20
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
20
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
If it had the dc-dc id buy 2- 4 depending

E-bortion

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself? $35
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece? $40
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter? $20
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter? $20
5. How many of each would you expect to buy? 2-3.

Toodles

Anyone have any CAD experience? I need to get the plastic piece modeled and saved as an STL file for getting quotes from fab houses. The part's easy to describe and I have everything measured out, hell I even have it modelled out in eMachineShop's software ( http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8215/ouchid8.jpg ) but I need some help making an STL.

So, can anyone help me with a quick CAD project, or point me towards a software that I can easy create this in? Im not a stupid person, just ignorant of CAD stuff.

Phobos

1. How much would you pay for a kit you had to solder yourself?
$50.00
2. How much for a ready-to-use already soldered piece?
$60.00
3. How much for a kit if it did not have the DC-DC converter?
$40.00
4. How much for a ready-to-use piece without the DC-DC converter?
$30.00
5. How many of each would you expect to buy?
Two

Green

Burning Vigor, post: 1473203 wrote:

I thought this guy was doing this because he's a fan of the sanwa flash sticks but now it seems like he's gotten greedy and wants to make big bucks and retire off of this.

Do you know how much profit he'll make from this endeavor, assuming (best case) that every piece is sold? Why don't you show us your figures?

Numbski

I'm alright paying $40, so long as there are bulk discounts. :) For example, I would like 5 kits, and I'm not about $160 for $60 in parts. ;) But yeah, the time required to pull this together and make it work, your time isn't worthless.

Green, unless you've ever run your own business, be quiet. Seriously. I bill out at $125/hour typically. I don't know how much time he's put into this, but if he makes a working product, I say he deserves to reap some profit from it. If you can't afford that price point, you could always try asking nicely rather than flaming.

BTW, if you're goint to do this, I suggest you use Blinksale for it. Makes for managing this kinda stuff easier. Wouldn't mind getting a referral for it either. ;)

Green

Numbski, post: 1473210 wrote:

Green, unless you've ever run your own business, be quiet. Seriously.

If you think about what I was saying, and who I was replying to, you would probably take that back.

Toodles

Everyone be cool, I'm not worried about Burning Vigor or anyone else. If they don't think it's worth it, that's cool by me. Before I started, I wouldn't have had a clue how much work was involved; I can't fault him because he doesn't have a clue either. Don't worry about it.

The funny part is being called greedy. I hadn't stated anything about a price expect it will likely be more than the original HS-ASSY kit sold for.

Numbski, I'll look into BlinkSale, but I dont have a clue what they do or why I'd need them. Send me your referral info and I'll use it if I end up using them. Please keep in mind, this is still at LEAST two plus months out, likely more.

Still need CAD help if anyone can help.

chippermonky

toodles, don't most consoles output 5v? All you'd need then is a cap to smooth out the DC if anything at all. I think it'd be better if you just went without the DC DC converter.


edit: stupid me, I didn't finish reading your post. Okay nvm, scratch that.

But anyways, toodles, how much did that stuff cost you? The components (minus the DC-DC chip) shoudn't cost much more than a dollar if you order more than... 50 of them at once, so I'd assume the rest of the cost comes from etching the PCB and making the mount.

Well either way, toodles, could I buy the FLASH parts from you along with the schematics? (I actually went online and bought some myself but I bought the wrong type--I got photo transistors instead of diodes which have slower response and I got orange narrow beam LEDs which don't trigger the transistors [the specs said it would, but they were bad specs], but oh well, time to make a blinding orange LED flashlight) I want to make one myself (to use) and see what alternatives I can find for a plastic mount and heck even the etched pcb. I was thinking just screwing on some cheap piece of wood/acrylic on standoffs straight onto the custom flash PCB which would be a lot cheaper than having plastic custom milled/cut. As for the PCB, I wanted to try just stock perf board though I'm betting you already tried that.

Toodles

PM with Taiki for others that may have the same questions:

Taiki wrote:

Toodles wrote:

Taiki wrote:

Just curious, how are you going about this?

?? In what way? Eagle for layout, first prototype PCB prolly from BatchPCB.com, prototype plastic piece from some fab shop using rapid 3-D printer stuff. If I do a large batch, the plastic piece would likely be injection molded (hella spendy) and the pcb's made offshore, prolly olimex.com.

What optic part are you using?

i'm wondering if youc an simplify the entire kit by selling a breakout loop from the 5 pin sanwa interface, the power, and just have the optic parts mounted similar to the JLF-TM stick. It would be much cheaper to put together as a kit, and it'd be something the whole community could do as a home brew project.

Unless you meant to make money off of it. :)

The optic parts are straight out of the mouser catalog; the specific part numbers will be in the build of materials when I release the schematics and all; even if everything falls apart and I decide not to get a bunch manufactured, I'll still be releasing everything I've done so far. Schematic, the pcb layout, build of materials, plastic piece (in STL if/when I get that done, and the emachineshop part I already have done) etc. But I don't want to do that until I have at least one tested prototype done.

I DO want it be a project anyone can do; if someone wants to take the information I put together and make one without sending me a penny, they are welcome to; it would actually make me happy to see someone make another batch to sell a couple of years from now, or improve on the design. If it were easy and cheap to do individually, I wouldn't be bothering trying to get a batch made; Id make a few for me and release everything and not bother. The problem is the economics. The board measures 50.7 mm x 57mm, or what would amount to 6 square inches. The cheapest I could have a single board made for is from batchPCB.com, for 2.50 per sq. in. and about $20 for setup and shipping. $35 just for the little pcb. The complex shape if it hurts the cost a bunch, but Im hoping with a run of 1000, I can get it below $2 each, maybe $1. The plastic housing is the real kicker, and the one that has the best chance of biting me in the ass. Single piece using ABS plastic from a rapid prototype 3-D printer: $105 Using injection molding makes them cheap for a decent size run, but the initial mold creation is looking ot be AT LEAST $3000, and $5-10,000 would not surprise me. The 5 pin sanwa connector and the matching 3 pin connector? The single place in the U.S. I can find that part; required minimum of 1000 pieces. Per part number.

Believe me, I've been trying to figure out ways to make it cheaper, especially in low number. I HAVE to have some sort of housing, something to make the whole thing the right height so it wont rattle. If it does, things could line up wrong and make the controls all screwy, plus all of the weight of the board would rest on the restrictor plate by the tallest components: the optics. Bad idea. Plus, it gives me a chance to put dividers between the optics to prevent a receiver from getting the signal from the wrong transmitter. The chip on the board, the HC14, is required; phototransistors are analog, and we need the shmitt inverter to clean the signal to a clear High or Low and debounce the signal. The DC-DC converter is mostly a perk added to make it easier for installation in my HRAP, and also provide a constant, consistent voltage to help increase the life of the parts. The one chosen, the MAX631, was chosen specifically because it requires the least amount of extra components to work.

Im looking at a picture of the JLF-TM, and it looks like a normal JLF, except microswitches were put in directly, with no pcb connecting them. I dont see how optics could be used in that fashion at all. The geometry is all wrong. I need a receiver or transmitter exactly in those spaces between the microswitches.

Please, if you have specific ideas on how these things might be made cheaper, I'm all for hearing it. If you can think of ways a single one could be done well for less than $200, please say so; Ill be the guinea pig and test it out.

I gonna post this is the thread in hopes it will help others.

Toodles

chippermonky, post: 1473213 wrote:

But anyways, toodles, how much did that stuff cost you? The components (minus the DC-DC chip) shoudn't cost much more than a dollar if you order more than... 50 of them at once, so I'd assume the rest of the cost comes from etching the PCB and making the mount.

The pcb and plastic piece are going to end up being AT LEAST 80% of the cost.

As for how much it'll cost, look at my previous post. A prototype is prolly gonna set me back $200 for just one, and that's without the connectors.

Well either way, toodles, could I buy the FLASH parts from you along with the schematics?

That's been the idea all along; schematics and details would be released for free as soon as either 1) I have a working prototype and decide not get a bunch manufactured or 2) Bunch has been manufactured and ready to ship.

If you want to play with it yourself, please do; just about any IR LED and phototransister should work just fine. I'll tell everyone the ones I'm using as soon as #1 or #2 happens.

I want to make one myself (to use) and see what alternatives I can find for a plastic mount and heck even the etched pcb. I was thinking just screwing on some cheap piece of wood/acrylic on standoffs straight onto the custom flash PCB which would be a lot cheaper than having plastic custom milled/cut. As for the PCB, I wanted to try just stock perf board though I'm betting you already tried that.

Good for you. I've though about using some sort of standoff, but ran into a couple of problems. There are 'pins' in the restrictor plate that are made to go into the microswitch holes and help stabilize the whole thing. Any standoff in that area would need a matching hole drilled in it, on both sides. I thought about getting a same sized microswitch to put in, since it'd be the perfect height and had the holes (top and bottom) needed. Problem: Im low on PCB real estate,and the switch would be EXACTLY where one of the IR pair needed to be. Using a perfboard is cool, but you should measuer out where the IR pair should be; I think you'll find the holes to force the LED's to be either too close or too far by about 50 mills. :) It's a fun project though. Please do and post up how it went; some people seem to think this is easy. :)

Mayhem

Wouldn't it be pretty trivial to design the PCB such that the voltage regulator circuit could be bypassed with a simple blob of solder? That way those who don't need it wouldn't have to pay for it.

chippermonky

so toodles, you are using a photo transistor? Okay, I guess I'll try it with a photo transistor.. just need the IR LEDs now.

Anyways, about the plastic top, I honestly don't think that's a good idea. The volume that you require to make the price cheaper is ridiculous and I think the benefits aren't worth it. I'm sure you can find some place to stick standoffs and heck, you could hold the standoffs with hot glue if you can't find rooms for screws.

Anyways, I'll get back to you on how well this works out once I get my IR leds. One quick question, do you go (going in a circle): sensor sensor sensor sensor IR LED IR LED IR LED IR LED or do you go sensor IR LED sensor IR LED sensor IR LED sensor IR LED.

Toodles

Mayhem, post: 1473216 wrote:

Wouldn't it be pretty trivial to design the PCB such that the voltage regulator circuit could be bypassed with a simple blob of solder? That way those who don't need it wouldn't have to pay for it.

already designed that way. :)

Unknown

So, so far my tentative order may quite possibly set me back $600?

Toodles

I won't have any numbers of any kind until I shop around for quotes on the housing. To do that, I need to model it in an STL file. The whole point of this thread was to get an idea of expectations so once I have all of the numbers in front of me, I can make the call about getting X number made.

I'll post back what we're looking at as soon as I have all of the numbers in front of me.

Numbski

Green, post: 1473211 wrote:

If you think about what I was saying, and who I was replying to, you would probably take that back.

You're right, my bad. Sorry. :(

Numbski

Blinksale would let you take orders, and invoice out via paypal when everything is ready to go. Makes life a bit more simple keeping track, since well...you're going to have many people interested if you get this to work.

I suggest you take up a pre-order pool to cover your early parts cost. $5 donation from each interested party would at least take a chunk out of that hurt.

I am not of much help in the CAD department, however if you hunted down a local ITT school, I'm sure you could find someone that would knock it out for you dirt cheap.

Numbski

Would this do?

http://askoh.com/freecad/

Toodles

Numbski, post: 1473223 wrote:

Would this do?

http://askoh.com/freecad/

Im getting SolidWorks whipped into shape, so the STL file should be done by tomorrow, then comes some painful quoting and working with the fab to smooth, roundout, whatever modifications they need for easier molding.

He's a shot meant to show off the view so far, but has measurements if anyone wants 'em. http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6263/sdrulesly7.png

To anyone who thinks this is easy to do:

mynus

question about the dc-dc convertors you're talking about. I have 2 flash sticks in agetecs that i customized myself for ps2 and i dont use the convertor. point is my sticks have been perfection for 2 years now. What is the actual benefit of having this convertor in there? Is it related to the type of controller pcb one is using cause im using a PS1 dual shock A-series.

Let me know cause im curious about this. oh btw i would buy your kits in a heartbeat if ur successful so good luck. I remember how much i paid for my flashs' so putting down $50 for one of your kits is something i would do easily.

Toodles

mynus, post: 1473225 wrote:

question about the dc-dc convertors you're talking about. I have 2 flash sticks in agetecs that i customized myself for ps2 and i dont use the convertor. point is my sticks have been perfection for 2 years now. What is the actual benefit of having this convertor in there? Is it related to the type of controller pcb one is using cause im using a PS1 dual shock A-series.

If they work fine for you, awesome. Some people have difficulty with p360's and flashes on 3.3v, so the DC-DC converter makes sure it gets the 5v its expecting. If yours works with your setup, don't sweat it.

2 prototype pcb's ordered and should be here soon.