Spark/SparkCE Optical Joystick Sensor for JLF

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  • shrimpnoodlesshrimpnoodles duh Joined: Posts: 428
    hey toodles, I'm probably going to take you up on that offer of the dc dc converter. I'll let you know what I need/want happen on my 360 once the time comes.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Just a note to let y'all know where I'm at, and keep things ordered in my head.

    The two proto pcb's should be here sometime this week. I have all of the parts here to assemble, but the only thing to use for the housing is from my original flash. It'll have to do, but that means I should know if the measurements for the pcb shape are accurate enough to go into a JLF as planned, and that the measurements for the placing of the receivers and transmitters is accurate enough for use.

    The Max631 I had originally planned on using on the flash board itself hasn't done too well on the tests I've put it through, so I'm going to go back to the max731 or max751. It requires a couple more components, but worked reliably last time I used it. Because of the extra components, I dont think I can get it on the flash pcb. I'll try, but the DC-DC converter may have to be a separate part. I should be able to fit the DC-DC converter layout in the big ass hole in the middle of the flash so cutting out the hole gives me a DC-DC board ready to go, and at no cast than the flash by itself would be.

    Getting the housing molded is pretty much out of the question. All of the fabrication houses I contacted quotes $7,000 for the machining of the initial mold, and $1.50-$3.50 per piece molded. Unless someone wants to order 1,000 pieces, it ain't gonna happen. So instead I bought a CNC mill, and will try my hand at milling them out. The mill should arrive in about one month, and will take a little bit of time to figure out how to use properly. The upside is that I no longer have to worry about having a pcb fab shop mill out the odd shape; I can do that myself. The downside is I am now out am additional $1,000. But oh the fun I will have with that machine :nunchuck:

    Adjustments to the pcb are planned, such as having both 2.54mm and 2.5mm spacing holes for the connectors, in case people want to use connectors other than the JST ones, or want an easy way to solder wires to the board.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Thanks for making the sacrifice Toodles on getting dat machine. Us as in we, can't wait!!!!!!!!!!
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  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150 ✭✭✭
    Toodles
    You got PM buddy.
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  • JakeJake Summers Family RH Joined: Posts: 421
    Really hope this works out cause I just borrowed a flash and it is simply a million times better than a switch based JLF. Flash on an octagonal gate registers properly unlike (for me at least) an octagonal gate on a switch PCB. The octagonal gate then gives the natural circular movement which makes the stick feel 100x better than square to me.

    I can do things like half circle x 2 supers off of stand shorts in cvs2 and do 10+ pretzel raging storms in a row without screwing up, that's all I ask for really, a stick that as long as I did the motion right and fast enough, registers properly. Absolutely no way I can do the same on my old switch based square gate jlf.

    Make it work! Cause I can't hold on to this flash forever :(.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Will do my best. I need those prototype PCB's before I can go any further, and those are taking longer than I expected. I may not have those until the end of the month. *sigh*

    At least it gives me time to work on the universal pcb :)
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  • NumbskiNumbski I show off my balls. Joined: Posts: 910
    If there's anything I can contribute, let me know. Electrical engineering isn't my strong suit (I did go to the trouble of downloading "Rocky Boot" and was thinking of giving that a go. :)).

    Heck, at this point I'd almost be happy to just have some sort of multiplexing switch to where I could press a button and switch input sets. I have 4 players on my control panel, each with 8 fire buttons, start button, and coin switch. That's 14 inputs plus ground (should it need to be isolated...). I'm thinking there's got to be a way I can multiplex that so that I could easily set up a pushbutton switch to go between inputs, but the logic escapes me.

    I got to the point in my brain that perhaps I should ditch using my IPac4, use hacked psx pads across the board, and then I could just multiplex 5 conductors per player, perhaps using a hacked svideo switch, but that gets ugly (and expensive!) in a hurry. :\
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  • Dj_MatrixDj_Matrix Joined: Posts: 554
    Really hope this works out cause I just borrowed a flash and it is simply a million times better than a switch based JLF. Flash on an octagonal gate registers properly unlike (for me at least) an octagonal gate on a switch PCB. The octagonal gate then gives the natural circular movement which makes the stick feel 100x better than square to me.

    I can do things like half circle x 2 supers off of stand shorts in cvs2 and do 10+ pretzel raging storms in a row without screwing up, that's all I ask for really, a stick that as long as I did the motion right and fast enough, registers properly. Absolutely no way I can do the same on my old switch based square gate jlf.

    Make it work! Cause I can't hold on to this flash forever :(.

    man i told you flash is the best... with octagon too. man and yeah you can hold my shit forever... but i dont need it so for a good while. :)
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    The support is much appreciated guys.

    Numbski, make a thread detailing what you have and what you're trying to do and I'll see if theres anything I can do to help.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    I just got these in and couldn't wait to put up pictures. I'll be assembling it and testing it over the next coupla days, but this is just too pretty to not post. BatchPCB did a kickass job of cutting to spec, and it fits in the JLF like a dream, even the four holes the little stubbys poke through.

    http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6703/flashpcbxv2.jpg

    Since its looking like the DC-DC converter wont be on the flash itself, the final model will be even simpler by far. Im still trying to fit it in, though.
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  • TaikiTaiki Fezzes are cool. Joined: Posts: 942
    niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

    As far as a DC-DC converter, you can use a 4004 or similar IC.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    The only datasheet I can find for a '4004' chip dealing with DC is a PWR-4004. If that's what you mean, then I can't use it. The chip is over 1" x 1", and has a minimum input voltage of 4.5v. If this isnt the one you're thinking of, link me a datasheet and I'll definitely check it out.
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  • TaikiTaiki Fezzes are cool. Joined: Posts: 942
  • laurie47laurie47 UK stickman Joined: Posts: 340
    Count me in for a few of these.
    Looking superb!
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777

    Input voltage: 5v < x < 15v. Doesnt do what we need it to do. We need to kick up low PSX voltage of 3.x up to 5v.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Woot!

    Well, let's start with the bad news. Somewhere along the way, I got my directions mixed up. Up is down, left is right, and visa versa for both. Not a big problem for now, since putting it in 180 degrees makes it perfectly usable, but something I need to tweak on the pcb.

    The good news: It works. I'll be a sonuvabitch, it works. The measurements are slick and pristine and it slides into the JLF like Sanwa made it themselves.

    The minor bad news: I get one to two directions that 'stick'. Im not certain yet, and will test some more tomorrow, but I think it is being caused by the pcb flexing from the pressure it is under, especially the 5 pin connector. I dont have a 90 degree connector like normal JLF or flash pcb's use, so the one I have goes straight up and bumps into the clear restrictor. Getting a 90 degree connector, either by removing one from one of my JLF pcbs, or waiting for the one MKL is supposed to send me, may fix this, in which case we are VERY VERY happy. Which leads us to...

    The awesome news: The JLF is an amazingly well engineered piece of machinery, snugly accepting and holding pcb's in a range of thicknesses. This range happens to include PCB + IC socket + IC thickness. I know I've said recently that just having something thick wouldn't be clean or reliable enough. Testing it in my hand proved me wrong, and also that Sanwa engineers are some smart MFers. I'm feeling very confident that 2 IC's plus sockets on opposite corners will make the whole thing perfectly solid when installed, and leave the LED's and detectors safe from harm. The 45 degree display of the LED's and the 15(?) degree acceptance range of the phototransistors means that I should not need any kind of partition between parts.....ln english, there is a good chance I can do this without a plastic housing. That would drop the price of the kits dramatically.

    Edit: Dramatically over the cost of a flash+DC-DC converter piece, and about the same as a flash+housing would have cost. Since the second PCB will likely be the DC-DC converter, pretty much all of them would have to have one.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Dang, once you fingure out all the kinks man, I'll definitely order some.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    If you can get this figured out before Evo, I will love you forever(no homo).
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  • laurie47laurie47 UK stickman Joined: Posts: 340
    I would love you too (with homo if need be)
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  • DH020DH020 R.A.D Joined: Posts: 568
    lol....Laurie we would should make deal & get shiz load these!! lol
    UK Custom Stick-Maker

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  • albert_calbert_c KS2 Joined: Posts: 2,011
    Great Work!
    KEYSTONE II
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  • MikeiMikei Q scrub? Joined: Posts: 269
    Honestly when do you think you'll get these up and ready for sale? Because you've hit the goldmine, I'll take 3 outright once you start selling them.
    Godzilla is defender of the rising sun.

    www.REV0.net
    "Bringing Joy to the MAS-less"
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Honestly when do you think you'll get these up and ready for sale? Because you've hit the goldmine, I'll take 3 outright once you start selling them.
    The biggest delays so far have been with shipping, especially the pcb's. Those two from BatchPCB took fucking forever to show up, and within a day of getting them, I've got them tested and revisions ready to go for another prototype. Im prolly gonna be kicking in the extra bucks for faster delivery, and get the next protos from the pcb house I will probably get the large run made from, so I can get a feel for the pcb's they make, and their ability to cut the pcb to the right shape.

    If I can go without the plastic housing, then this could be done soon. My only worry is that it wont feel 'professional' or worth their money without the housing. At this point, if I'm right about the IC + socket being solid enough, then the housing would be purely cosmetic. Look at this side-by-side:
    http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3141/flashcomparejo5.jpg
    Which one in your gut feels more valuable? My gut says the left, even though my brain knows the one on the right has a DC-DC converter on it, and is functionaly identical in every other way.

    When do I honestly think they'll be ready?
    IF I decide to go without a housing,
    IF there are no mistakes in the next proto pcb,
    IF there are no delays in getting the parts,
    (those are some big if's)
    About two months/end of May.
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  • RagingKeelaRagingKeela Joined: Posts: 214
    No doubt man! HYPE! I'll definetly order at least 2 - and other players around me will most likely follow suit which could lead to around 10 or so. I hope this works out for you and everybody can support you to keep it up! What a great thing....
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  • TaikiTaiki Fezzes are cool. Joined: Posts: 942
    Input voltage: 5v < x < 15v. Doesnt do what we need it to do. We need to kick up low PSX voltage of 3.x up to 5v.


    Why not drop the voltage going to the rumble motors?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    One thing, will I be able to use the HRAP PCB?
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  • laurie47laurie47 UK stickman Joined: Posts: 340
    has a price been confirmed or suggested?
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  • DH020DH020 R.A.D Joined: Posts: 568
    cant wait for this....woot woot
    UK Custom Stick-Maker

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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Why not drop the voltage going to the rumble motors?
    Too unreliable; the voltage from the center pin is the only one I can count on being there, since the rumble voltage has its own set of fuses, and may not be given power by a converter. The center pin HAS to be there.
    Anyone that wants to wire it up from the other voltage pin can certainly do so, and would require nothing more than a few diodes in series to drop the voltage. I want a single pin on the flash that can properly handle either 5v or 3.x volts. No worries, the max chips Im testing (731/751) seem to do the trick nicely.
    has a price been confirmed or suggested?
    Lots of suggestions from people in the beginning of the thread, but nothing from me on a price yet. I wouldnt be going through all of this unless I was pretty damn sure I could beat the suggestions given in the beginning, but other than that I can't confirm a price yet; too much still uncertain.
    One thing, will I be able to use the HRAP PCB?
    Sure. I'll be putting one in my HRAP2 as soon as I can, and will post up a tutorial on exactly that.
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  • MikeiMikei Q scrub? Joined: Posts: 269

    If I can go without the plastic housing, then this could be done soon. My only worry is that it wont feel 'professional' or worth their money without the housing. At this point, if I'm right about the IC + socket being solid enough, then the housing would be purely cosmetic. Look at this side-by-side:
    http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3141/flashcomparejo5.jpg
    Which one in your gut feels more valuable? My gut says the left, even though my brain knows the one on the right has a DC-DC converter on it, and is functionaly identical in every other way.

    Have you ever thought of vaccuforming a housing separately and just assembling it to the PCB with epoxy or gorrilla glue? You could emulate the PCB design quite well and gorrilla glue with most likely never come off. Just a suggestion to help out your cosmetic situation. Hit me up on PM or AIM, I have alot of vaccuforming/sculpting experience and can give you detailed instructions on how about doing that.
    Godzilla is defender of the rising sun.

    www.REV0.net
    "Bringing Joy to the MAS-less"
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  • TaikiTaiki Fezzes are cool. Joined: Posts: 942
    Too unreliable; the voltage from the center pin is the only one I can count on being there, since the rumble voltage has its own set of fuses, and may not be given power by a converter. The center pin HAS to be there.
    Anyone that wants to wire it up from the other voltage pin can certainly do so, and would require nothing more than a few diodes in series to drop the voltage. I want a single pin on the flash that can properly handle either 5v or 3.x volts. No worries, the max chips Im testing (731/751) seem to do the trick nicely.

    Right right.

    Forgot about converters and the like. I was just thinking about what would happen if you blew the main power line coming from the PS, but now i realize that might not be possible.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Well, I've assembled the MAX731 and the MAX751 on the breadboard and tested, and it looks like the clear winner is the 731. Whether it was fed 5v from my power supply, or just under 3v from a pair of AA batteries, it output a clean voltage somewhere between 5.02v and 5.08v. The schematic in the datasheet recommends a 100uF capacitor between the output line and ground, but it appears to work fine as low as 8uF (four 33uf capacitors in series actually). Im going to the GF's so tomorrow I'll test to make sure it behaves when under load, and work on getting it into the pcb.

    For the curious, I wanted a lower capacity capacitor because the specs for USB devices say that there shouldn't be more than about 10uf capacitor on the board to prevent a massive current draw when first plugged in. Since it is very likely these will end up used on USB devices by a bunch of folks, Im trying to make sure they're covered.
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  • GreenGreen jay's dad Joined: Posts: 2,267
    How about an inductor to prevent current rush?
    pride is beautiful
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Any updates?
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    The second order for PCB protos was put in last weekend. It includes all of the parts for putting a MAX731 directly on the board. The PCB house I'm getting these protos from is where I will likely have the big run made at, and probably assembled at. These protos should be here in 1-2 weeks.

    I'm still waiting on a quote from another place for molding the housing, but even if they fall through or are too expensive, I still have the CNC machine to make the housing with; that should be here soon.
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  • RamonRamon Robot sent back in time to stop Crossups. Joined: Posts: 666
    -bump-

    ~Goodbye
    If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    Yes, Mone, Ill make sure you know when some are available :)

    But if ya want a status update, I got an email from the pcb manufacturer with a fedex tracking number. Supposed to arrive tomorrow, but I think they're sending to a PO Box, so they may not be here until the 12th or 13th. Expect pictures of the new pcb in thenext couple of days.

    CNC table should be shipped by Monday, to arrive late next week or early the week after.
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    http://flickr.com/photos/toodlesdc/455535853/

    The place I ordered the second batch from had a square inch special; set price, and as many as they could it in 155 sq in. I figured I'd end up with like 10.

    I ended up with 36.
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  • TaikiTaiki Fezzes are cool. Joined: Posts: 942
    Niiiiiiiice.

    Any word on the horizontal 4 pin connectors?
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
    I got an order of 5 pins and 3 pins hopefully coming soon from Per. Im still trying to hunt down a distributor that can tackle all of the JST parts I need for a 1k run at once, but so far no-go. If the parts from Per look good, Ill just get the whole shebang through him.
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  • Chozen1Chozen1 Joined: Posts: 716
    I got an order of 5 pins and 3 pins hopefully coming soon from Per. Im still trying to hunt down a distributor that can tackle all of the JST parts I need for a 1k run at once, but so far no-go. If the parts from Per look good, Ill just get the whole shebang through him.

    Right on, I highly doubt per would stiff you on this especially since you're trying to replicate one of the most sought-after joysticks everyone would like to own. I think we all appreciate the hard work of busting your cajones on this one bro :looney:
    "The event is the journey, not the destination. because we all know what that is"
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Good lord. As soon as you get done you will be one rich mofokr. Count me in on the completed product. I'll be buying those like crazy for my stick building business. Keep up the good R&D.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    i'll buy surely 2 of them

    keep it going!!
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  • ShortboiShortboi head shots for all Joined: Posts: 166
    def. in for atleast one when they are done...
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  • Festival6667Festival6667 iTowerBridge Joined: Posts: 509
    def. in for atleast one when they are done...
    Same here: at least one, probably two
    Don't ever come to me via PM after making a retarded thread crying about how people flamed you. --SK
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  • RamonRamon Robot sent back in time to stop Crossups. Joined: Posts: 666
    Hadou-bump

    ~Goodbye
    If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
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  • magsmags PHASER FADER Joined: Posts: 208
    I'm buying one! As long as it's electronics retard friendly.:sweat:
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  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150 ✭✭✭
    Toodles
    Package is on it`s way to you now :) (from customs).
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,777
  • RamonRamon Robot sent back in time to stop Crossups. Joined: Posts: 666
    The bumps.

    Whats the update on it?

    ~Goodbye
    If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
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