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Is there a Dragon Ball Z thread? If not...

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Comments

  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Factual Joined: Posts: 9,915
    It doesn't help that none of Jiren's attacks are memorable. Goku Black was shittacular but he at least did cool things like the scythe and his hand blade fighting style. Plus I was a fan of his overall design and presentation, even if he did ruin that whenever he opened his mouth.

    Jiren does boring ass generic moves with a pasted on backstory while wearing the same outfit as 9 other dudes and looking like if you slapped Freeza 'ears' on a swole Grey
    NNID: a2handedmonk
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    It doesn't help that none of Jiren's attacks are memorable. Goku Black was shittacular but he at least did cool things like the scythe and his hand blade fighting style. Plus I was a fan of his overall design and presentation, even if he did ruin that whenever he opened his mouth.

    Jiren does boring ass generic moves with a pasted on backstory while wearing the same outfit as 9 other dudes and looking like if you slapped Freeza 'ears' on a swole Grey

    Broly > Jiren
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Beyond Anger... Ultra Rage Joined: Posts: 26,976
    Broly's backstory and motivation completely ruins everything cool about him.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    edited February 12
    ad006e98532768b10f1ccb9301865eaea9d3727c_hq.gif
    latest?cb=20111228235328
    ae707c7f6392b693b1ee79e2ce83e2c08ba67c95_hq.gif
    96c585337121d8913ead293cb8c27401d8e1eb1d_hq.gif
    dzsU9O.gif

    I don't care why he did any of this. It doesn't matter. Hell, everybody was stroking Jiren without him saying anything, let alone having a backstory. His motivations are sooooooo generic that even Broly's are more understandable. If he showed up as a villain wanting the SDBs for the reason he does, he'd warrant the same criticisms as Broly. The only reason Jiren gets a pass is because everything regarding the tournament is set up in such a way that he doesn't need motivation.

    If you actually pay attention, you even notice that Jiren's dumb ass went down the wrong path. No, he didn't end up evil, but he learned the wrong lesson. He's pretty much Sasuke.

    Edit: He has the same Emo motivations and thirst for power as Jin Kazama and Virgil as well lol
    Post edited by Phantom Angel on
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Leon63Leon63 Joined: Posts: 10,030
    That crack on the rock on the third gif tho.
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Beyond Anger... Ultra Rage Joined: Posts: 26,976
    So doing cool looking shit just for the lols is all it takes to impress you?

    Then you should be a Vegeta fan pre Super also.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Darc RequiemDarc Requiem The King of Wakanda Joined: Posts: 10,062
    It doesn't help that none of Jiren's attacks are memorable. Goku Black was shittacular but he at least did cool things like the scythe and his hand blade fighting style. Plus I was a fan of his overall design and presentation, even if he did ruin that whenever he opened his mouth.

    Jiren does boring ass generic moves with a pasted on backstory while wearing the same outfit as 9 other dudes and looking like if you slapped Freeza 'ears' on a swole Grey

    Broly > Jiren

    Broly being triggered by a crying baby ruins the character.
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  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    edited February 12
    po pimpus wrote: »
    So doing cool looking shit just for the lols is all it takes to impress you?

    Then you should be a Vegeta fan pre Super also.

    That's all it took to impress all of you with Jiren, soooo.....
    It doesn't help that none of Jiren's attacks are memorable. Goku Black was shittacular but he at least did cool things like the scythe and his hand blade fighting style. Plus I was a fan of his overall design and presentation, even if he did ruin that whenever he opened his mouth.

    Jiren does boring ass generic moves with a pasted on backstory while wearing the same outfit as 9 other dudes and looking like if you slapped Freeza 'ears' on a swole Grey

    Broly > Jiren

    Broly being triggered by a crying baby ruins the character.

    It's funny how y'all pick and choose when plot and story matters in Dragon Ball. You criticize some dumb shit that happens, and it's all "lol it's Dragon Ball don't take it seriously they just punch shit hard and move fast". But when you take a non-canon movie character who epitomizes that and makes the Z-Fighters look like bitches, it's "omg he's not a deep enough character what's his motivation why he clothesline Vegeta like that why he punt Goku I need answers".

    Kiss my ass.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Beyond Anger... Ultra Rage Joined: Posts: 26,976
    edited February 12
    That too. Broly wore out his welcome in the first film.

    The fact he's so popular is the shame of the fanbase.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    Lol I'm genuinely confused.... Jiren is immensely popular and he's the same shit.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    edited February 12
    po pimpus wrote: »
    So doing cool looking shit just for the lols is all it takes to impress you?

    Then you should be a Vegeta fan pre Super also.

    That's all it took to impress all of you with Jiren, soooo.....
    It doesn't help that none of Jiren's attacks are memorable. Goku Black was shittacular but he at least did cool things like the scythe and his hand blade fighting style. Plus I was a fan of his overall design and presentation, even if he did ruin that whenever he opened his mouth.

    Jiren does boring ass generic moves with a pasted on backstory while wearing the same outfit as 9 other dudes and looking like if you slapped Freeza 'ears' on a swole Grey

    Broly > Jiren

    Broly being triggered by a crying baby ruins the character.

    It's funny how y'all pick and choose when plot and story matters in Dragon Ball. You criticize some dumb shit that happens, and it's all "lol it's Dragon Ball don't take it seriously they just punch shit hard and move fast". But when you take a non-canon movie character who epitomizes that and makes the Z-Fighters look like bitches, it's "omg he's not a deep enough character what's his motivation why he clothesline Vegeta like that why he punt Goku I need answers".

    Kiss my ass.

    Dragon Ball doesn't have to be Shakepeare but they missed fast break lay up with Broly. Vegeta's father tried to murder him and father. He finds out Vegeta is still alive. Vegeta looks just like his father. Surely Broly is going to want vengeance against Vegeta. Nope, he's mad because while he was in a nursery, the baby next to him was crying. That's not even a good Toriyama gag. That's just fucking lame.

    Bro, who cares? Everything you want you got from Paragus. He provided the plot and the set up. As far as the infant with the 10,000 PL was concerned, the shrieking next to him was a lot more annoying than getting stabbed in the gut. He was just there to fuck shit up.

    Like I said, you're just moving goal posts. If you're going to demand a certain level of quality from the story, be consistent with it. Don't just bring it up when it's time to find an excuse for why you dislike a character.

    Edit: Btw.... If you look at the track record, nonsensical, petty triggers seem to be a common trait of LSSJs. Kale goes off whenever she feels like someone is taking Caulifla away from her.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • locoghoullocoghoul Fuck Chun Joined: Posts: 4,298 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    good fuckin lord. Is like every 4 months I have to lecture ignorant dumbos on that movie again and again.

    the crying thing refers to the fact that goku despite being the lowest piece of shit ever born "beat" broly who was a prodigy in terms of power level. They were both born the same day, so taking into account that they did have that legend about the super saiyan it is assumed that broly is the legendary saiyan except we know from hindsight that Goku kinda is instead. So that's what the other picked up when Broly cried because of Goku. And that's what triggers him, is like an antagonist by destiny. He is "ashamed" Goku made him his bitch back when they were little despite him being forecast as the legendary super saiyan and hates his guts. Vegeta's dad vendetta was Paragus' motto.

    I also like the fact that ppl do nitpick plot stuff and then just go "oh is dbz" at other things/characters. Like the legendary super saiyan, as told by Vegeta himself, is someone who lusts for blood and has almost 0 logic. Just goes apeshit in the most literal sense of the word. This was said before Broly even existed. Broly unlocks LSSJ and does exactly that clotheslining niggas left and right and you picky mofos go "oh he doesn't have a Game of Thrones scheme, he just punches stuff lulz, so lame"...
    You want to enjoy your shit game? Go ahead. Just know that I will ALWAYS be here - po pimpus 2006-2017 RIP
  • AzureAzure Inciteful. Joined: Posts: 10,395 ✭✭✭ Former OG
    Jiren is immensely popular

    What universe is this nigga living in?

    Johnny Come Lately Land.
    "Orgasm is a simile for the emotional epiphany a woman has when the shame of penetration is eclipsed by the inherent virtue of servicing a man." ~ Kromo.

    eSports is fucking retarded.
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    edited February 12
    Jiren is immensely popular

    What universe is this nigga living in?

    This thread been sucking his dick for months.

    Not even two weeks ago:
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Jiren is unique because he doesn't have a personality. He stands out amongst his more quirky peers by being all business.

    Being a mostly silent wrecking ball who crushes everyone is his thing.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who actually pays attention to the things Jiren has said and how much he's actually said.

    Every time I see or hear someone say "finally he talks" or "what's his personality?" I want to go through the effort of compiling all of his scenes...

    Maybe it's the fact that the episodes are weekly and this arc is long so people forget or just don't pay attention dialogue that isn't a five minute long monologue or cheesy exposition.
    Jiren personality: Has 0 patience for any of the shenanigans going on around him. Kinda arrogant but in a justified 'it's just a fact' kind of way. Meditation and his questions to Goku seem to indicate he seeks strength as a means to and end, enlightenment perhaps.

    Everything else is told rather than demonstrated

    I'm sure if I go back further I'll find even more people either drooling over him or defending against his criticisms. I peeped the bullshit a loooong time ago but I didn't wanna start that argument. But now y'all wanna act brand new since his story has finally been revealed.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • PterodactylPterodactyl drenched in sauce Joined: Posts: 7,282
    edited February 12
    The couple of people in here that like him are a rare exception.

    Most people are ragging on his lack of expression and constant no-selling and minimal backstory, pretty much everywhere else(and still also in here).
    spread'em
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    edited February 12
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.
    The couple of people in here that like him are a rare exception.

    Most people are ragging on his lack of expression and constant no-selling and minimal backstory, pretty much everywhere else(and still also in here).

    I'd go grab more posts, but I feel like I've already made my point. Jiren serves the same purpose as Broly did: An impossible obstacle for Goku to overcome.

    Do you notice how Jiren has no reason to consider Goku relevant nor does Goku have a reason to be on Jiren's dick, but they set shit up in a way where they end up clashing anyway? Think about it... Broly hates Goku, for all intents and purposes, just so they have a reason to fight. Toppo tells Goku about Jiren for no reason other than to get him excited. Jiren has no interest in Goku beyond him being the "reason" the universes are in jeopardy and Goku's interest comes from word of mouth.

    This is how they set fights up that have no reason to happen.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Factual Joined: Posts: 9,915
    edited February 12
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.

    He recognized Goku on sight. Not the sound of Goku crying (which it should be just some random ass baby crying if he was triggered by that), but visual identification. How would a newborn even recognize another baby that was in an adjacent crib. Baby Broly could look at Goku for 5 days straight and still not know who he was 35 years or so later.
    NNID: a2handedmonk
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.

    He recognized Goku on sight. Not the sound of Goku crying (which it should be just some random ass baby crying if he was triggered by that), but visual identification. How would a newborn even recognize another baby that was in an adjacent crib. Baby Broly could look at Goku for 5 days straight and still not know who he was 35 years or so later.

    The latter happens in the second movie and ends up being the reason why he attacks Goku and Trunks. Read my above post... They just force shit to give Goku someone to fight.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Factual Joined: Posts: 9,915
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.

    He recognized Goku on sight. Not the sound of Goku crying (which it should be just some random ass baby crying if he was triggered by that), but visual identification. How would a newborn even recognize another baby that was in an adjacent crib. Baby Broly could look at Goku for 5 days straight and still not know who he was 35 years or so later.

    The latter happens in the second movie and ends up being the reason why he attacks Goten and Trunks. Read my above post... They just force shit to give Goku someone to fight.

    Which basically means that Broly's entire reason to exist as an antagonist is moot. They're forcing Broly to be his opponent. He has no real goals other than 'Kill Kakarot' (again, how does he even know his goddam name?), and the incredibly simple concept of 'Kill Kakarot' is somehow riddled with plotholes. The framework was already set in motion in the first movie to have him be mind controlled into a mindless brute, why not just run with that? When Paragus dies the device rips his mind asunder and he has to be killed. No need to add the backstory to involve Goku at all, especially since Goku was already there to fight him because he was following the dude's trail. Now he's this crazy monster that shows up in the second movie, barely functioning in the mind, sees Goten, makes the mistake, and the movie happens as normal.

    Also, if you're gonna pick 3 posts of people 'dick ridding' Jiren, I would't pick those three. They're analytical and neutral at best (maybe not Pterodactyl). You can do sooooo much better examples.
    NNID: a2handedmonk
  • WastedWasted Verbal Diarrhetic Joined: Posts: 6,592
    I thought TFS already settled the Broly debate.
    SFV: Ken, with THAT ORANGE COSTUME

    I have nobody to play with, so I typically talk out of my ass.
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    edited February 12
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.

    He recognized Goku on sight. Not the sound of Goku crying (which it should be just some random ass baby crying if he was triggered by that), but visual identification. How would a newborn even recognize another baby that was in an adjacent crib. Baby Broly could look at Goku for 5 days straight and still not know who he was 35 years or so later.

    The latter happens in the second movie and ends up being the reason why he attacks Goten and Trunks. Read my above post... They just force shit to give Goku someone to fight.

    Which basically means that Broly's entire reason to exist as an antagonist is moot. They're forcing Broly to be his opponent. He has no real goals other than 'Kill Kakarot' (again, how does he even know his goddam name?), and the incredibly simple concept of 'Kill Kakarot' is somehow riddled with plotholes. The framework was already set in motion in the first movie to have him be mind controlled into a mindless brute, why not just run with that? When Paragus dies the device rips his mind asunder and he has to be killed. No need to add the backstory to involve Goku at all, especially since Goku was already there to fight him because he was following the dude's trail. Now he's this crazy monster that shows up in the second movie, barely functioning in the mind, sees Goten, makes the mistake, and the movie happens as normal.

    Also, if you're gonna pick 3 posts of people 'dick ridding' Jiren, I would't pick those three. They're analytical and neutral at best (maybe not Pterodactyl). You can do sooooo much better examples.

    All of that is true. My issue is that Jiren parallels Broly in that aspect but is treated like a better character and praised for reasons Broly is hated for.

    Those just happen to be the first posts I came across after I jumped back a few pages. They still serve the purpose of proving his statement false. I don't think I need to go find the posts with the fangirling, especially considering you just acknowledged the fact that they exist. That's all that matters to me, as that statement was only a small, passing criticism of my argument.
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • dab00gdab00g Joined: Posts: 21,694
    Can we also agree that him HAVING a grudge from when he's an infant is fucking stupid?

    Dude doesn't even have object permanence, yet is capable of forming an all consuming vendetta that lasts through adulthood?

    Dude only had 3 minutes of exposition

    What you are saying is we need more snakeway style filler
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Factual Joined: Posts: 9,915
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.

    He recognized Goku on sight. Not the sound of Goku crying (which it should be just some random ass baby crying if he was triggered by that), but visual identification. How would a newborn even recognize another baby that was in an adjacent crib. Baby Broly could look at Goku for 5 days straight and still not know who he was 35 years or so later.

    The latter happens in the second movie and ends up being the reason why he attacks Goten and Trunks. Read my above post... They just force shit to give Goku someone to fight.

    Which basically means that Broly's entire reason to exist as an antagonist is moot. They're forcing Broly to be his opponent. He has no real goals other than 'Kill Kakarot' (again, how does he even know his goddam name?), and the incredibly simple concept of 'Kill Kakarot' is somehow riddled with plotholes. The framework was already set in motion in the first movie to have him be mind controlled into a mindless brute, why not just run with that? When Paragus dies the device rips his mind asunder and he has to be killed. No need to add the backstory to involve Goku at all, especially since Goku was already there to fight him because he was following the dude's trail. Now he's this crazy monster that shows up in the second movie, barely functioning in the mind, sees Goten, makes the mistake, and the movie happens as normal.

    Also, if you're gonna pick 3 posts of people 'dick ridding' Jiren, I would't pick those three. They're analytical and neutral at best (maybe not Pterodactyl). You can do sooooo much better examples.

    All of that is true. My issue is that Jiren parallels Broly in that aspect but is treated like a better character and praised for reasons Broly is hated for.

    Those just happen to be the first posts I came across after I jumped back a few pages. They still serve the purpose of proving his statement false. I don't think I need to go find the posts with the fangirling, especially considering you just acknowledged the fact that they exist. That's all that matters to me, as that statement was only a small, passing criticism of my argument.

    You shouldn't put much stock into the current dickriding. Jiren is still an 'unknown' to be developed. It took exactly 1 episode for Toppo to go from kinda liked to 'HOLYSHITTHISGUYISAMAZING' and then only 1 more episode to 'Dude that Toppo is a fucking jobber who sucks'. Part of the allure of these character is that they are new and unknown; they can become anything, say anything, do anything while they're still around. Retrospection will decide how the character will be remembered as and that only starts when the character's arc is done.
    NNID: a2handedmonk
  • Hatred EdgeHatred Edge No Ningens Allowed Joined: Posts: 16,612
    Hate on Broly all you want but the man has some of the sexiest hairstyle in DB. :coffee:
    Has anyone thanked you today for not setting the whole world on fire?

    They should. I won't. I advocate setting the world on fire. But morons who actually like it, benefit from society, would do well to thank you and men like you for not visiting hell upon them.

    "You don't know what it's like to hate. To have your entire life become nothing more than an expression of hate. Nothing else matters. Nothing else can compare. Or taste as sweet."
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    Been a while since I watched the movie, but is it even confirmed that Broly knows why he hates Goku? He was just subconsciously triggered from the looks of it. The guy's not sane.

    He recognized Goku on sight. Not the sound of Goku crying (which it should be just some random ass baby crying if he was triggered by that), but visual identification. How would a newborn even recognize another baby that was in an adjacent crib. Baby Broly could look at Goku for 5 days straight and still not know who he was 35 years or so later.

    The latter happens in the second movie and ends up being the reason why he attacks Goten and Trunks. Read my above post... They just force shit to give Goku someone to fight.

    Which basically means that Broly's entire reason to exist as an antagonist is moot. They're forcing Broly to be his opponent. He has no real goals other than 'Kill Kakarot' (again, how does he even know his goddam name?), and the incredibly simple concept of 'Kill Kakarot' is somehow riddled with plotholes. The framework was already set in motion in the first movie to have him be mind controlled into a mindless brute, why not just run with that? When Paragus dies the device rips his mind asunder and he has to be killed. No need to add the backstory to involve Goku at all, especially since Goku was already there to fight him because he was following the dude's trail. Now he's this crazy monster that shows up in the second movie, barely functioning in the mind, sees Goten, makes the mistake, and the movie happens as normal.

    Also, if you're gonna pick 3 posts of people 'dick ridding' Jiren, I would't pick those three. They're analytical and neutral at best (maybe not Pterodactyl). You can do sooooo much better examples.

    All of that is true. My issue is that Jiren parallels Broly in that aspect but is treated like a better character and praised for reasons Broly is hated for.

    Those just happen to be the first posts I came across after I jumped back a few pages. They still serve the purpose of proving his statement false. I don't think I need to go find the posts with the fangirling, especially considering you just acknowledged the fact that they exist. That's all that matters to me, as that statement was only a small, passing criticism of my argument.

    You shouldn't put much stock into the current dickriding. Jiren is still an 'unknown' to be developed. It took exactly 1 episode for Toppo to go from kinda liked to 'HOLYSHITTHISGUYISAMAZING' and then only 1 more episode to 'Dude that Toppo is a fucking jobber who sucks'. Part of the allure of these character is that they are new and unknown; they can become anything, say anything, do anything while they're still around. Retrospection will decide how the character will be remembered as and that only starts when the character's arc is done.

    I hope people's eyes open soon, because there's no reason for Jiren to be as strong as he is. His "backstory" didn't even explain it. At the very least, Broly's power was explained and foreshadowed. Everything about Jiren amounts to "just because".
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • WilWil Joined: Posts: 6,362
    Hate on Broly all you want but the man has some of the sexiest hairstyle in DB. :coffee:

    Change your av now. :coffee:

    SFV: Cammy, Ibuki, Kolin
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Factual Joined: Posts: 9,915
    If Toppo had KO'd anyone, or even lasted one more episode, everyone woulda had a different opinion on the dude
    NNID: a2handedmonk
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,524
    mowr wrote: »
    I'm really curious as to why they feel like they need to keep reminding us that Frieza is still around. This has to be working up to something, surely?

    Like Michael Cole commentary
  • FlameAngelZFlameAngelZ I'm gonna fuck you up! Joined: Posts: 1,071
    I think Pride Trooper is a pretty cool guy. Eh kills Andorid 71 and doesnt afraid of anything.
    Exclusive Zappa Player!

    FlameAngelX got banned... for excessive use of the word "Smasher".
  • Phantom AngelPhantom Angel The Divine One™ Joined: Posts: 27,944
    He's afraid of whoever killed his parents and master...
    "Old enough to know better, Young enough to not give a fuck"

    R.I.P. YusukeUrameshi aka Yusuke_The_Detective
  • dab00gdab00g Joined: Posts: 21,694
    I just wonder who that evil guy was that drove him to this

    Jiren going to overcome odds

    Otherwise asspull of the damn series

    It was 17 who drew first blood and none of them are as strategic

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