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Baiting Sonic Hurricane?

SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
Well, since SH has almost no startup (or maybe 0 startup at all) it only takes a flinch from the opponent to get caught right?.... I've been able to use the following "baitout" but I don't know if it would work against better comp (since I don't have the best comp):

Start with any guile trap... my example will be lp sonic boom, walk up, s.rh..... basically, I do (optional) crossup, c.lp, clp, s.mpXXsonic boom, s.RH, sonic boom, run, crossup, repeat..... now, most people try to escape by rolling, so when I finish the s.RH I'll pause and watch for a roll.... if they roll, sonic hurricane, if not then sonic boom and continue trap.....


So yeah, I was wondering if better comp would get caught by this?....

As well, I was wondering if people had any good baits for sonic hurricane....

Thanks :)

Comments

  • MegaZangiefMegaZangief Mr. Endowed Joined: Posts: 298
    Ya I got one, c.lp,c.lp, then hold back s.lk, sonic hurricane. The move where he bounces foward with his knee, many times your opponent will try to punish after seeing this, sonic hurricane will just eat them alive. If they decide to get smart and just stand there, then you are back in there face again to work on their guard meter.
    Magic the Gathering is better than Marvel
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Here's my two cents, it's not very cool, but here ya go . . .

    Every now and again, I'll bait someone w/ a big, laggy, crouching RH. I try and make sure I'm just far enough away to avoid being blocked, parried, etc. Once they see it come out, they get all excited, rush towards me, into a sonic hurricane.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Well, the sonic hurricane is safe blocked and all and has like... a 5 frame startup but with the lvl 3 super flash fucking everything that may as well be 2 or 3 frames, give or take, but I know I'm off and tired but

    Sonic Hurricane is generally meant to shut down the other guy's long range pokes isn't it?

    If you're going to do it randomly like this you can increase the odds by focusing on their guard meter so they'll desperately try to regain control of the situation or buy themselves some time so that they'll likely fuckup and eat a lvl 2 cancel or you could simply hurricane the last bits of their guardbar and make them eat a good bit of the damage.

    As far as the pausing after the s.HK and waiting for a roll, just let them have it with the d.MK since you're keeping your charge and lvl 2 cancel it, you'll have one bar left and can easily build up the next lvl 2 cancel in no time right?
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • popoblopopoblo Joined: Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    a random level 3 super is a big gamble. if you're playing guile in his best groove (C-groove), wasting a level 3 gives lots of momentum to your opponent. link it off a low forward, combo into it, use it as a whiff punisher, punish a laggy move with it.

    OR just sit on the meter, the THREAT of the sonic hurricane is good enough. or save your meter for a level 2 or AC.

    gimmicky stuff to waste a sonic hurricane with isn't worth it at all IMO.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    popoblo wrote:
    link it off a low forward, combo into it, use it as a whiff punisher, punish a laggy move with it.

    yah that's what I mean, more mistakes on the other guys part are likely with a lowered guard meter. More opportunities to land the lvl 3 the ways you just listed.

    But still though I wouldn't use the lvl 3 if it could be helped, lvl 2 cancels do just as much damage and you have enough meter to build up another quick or build back up to a lvl 3 quicker than when completely empty.
    'Course if it'll kill them lvl 3 away.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • popoblopopoblo Joined: Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Hellion wrote:
    But still though I wouldn't use the lvl 3 if it could be helped, lvl 2 cancels do just as much damage and you have enough meter to build up another quick or build back up to a lvl 3 quicker than when completely empty.
    'Course if it'll kill them lvl 3 away.

    i disagree, because there are certain instances where only a level 3 sonic hurricane will punish. after a blocked honda headbutt, after a blocked low rh into fireball from geese, after most low rh slides, after guile's MAX RANGE low forward to link a level 3, etc etc etc.

    if your opponent gives you the opportunity to take 1/2 their life away with a sonic hurricane, take it.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    na ja, of course, lol

    I'll keep that in mind.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    guile is an exception to the super usage rule I'd think, I've played a R1 C-guile who got 4 full meters in a single round before, used 3 of them on sonic hurricanes when he think he had me (close to GC or normals where I normally would try to retailate with RC), that match went the distance, but still, less than 250 ticks per level 3 is pretty damn fast, what else is gonna do with all that extra meter charging? may as well take the 1.4k chip rather than wasting the meter build

    guile doens't need supers to apply big pressure anyways, hurricane is just fuel to the fire
  • D@RUD@RU "Sonic Poo!" Joined: Posts: 265
    sometimes i use this one cLP*3, c.mkxxSonicHurricane. Of course there is a gap beetwen cLP and cMK, but most of people seem to wait for MP into SB string that they'll probably at least Block the cMK... Sometimes you can even add second cMK^^
    If it connects you know what to do ;)
    "Grab a tit, squeeze!"

    CVS2 : C-Groove Claw, Guile, Sagat²
    MVC3 : Wolverine(barrage), Trish(peekaboo), IronMan(unibeam)
    SSF4: FeiLong
    Wargods -_-' The mighty ANUBIS!!!
  • HotboiHotboi Joined: Posts: 45
    go on youtube and watch nakanishi. u'll find out how to bait SH.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Guile has got great guard crush strings, especially in the corner-use them to let them feel the speed of sound.

    Main strings include Jab Sonic Boom and his follow-up jump-ins together with some mix-ups. If you make your opponent block long enough, then you can break his guard by finishing your string with Guile's far Roundhouse, the Thrust Kick, which is great for guard-crushing. This pattern is quite useful as you can do it all over again by throwing another Sonic Boom.
  • CMXCMX Hateful Henry Joined: Posts: 1,178
    no it's not, playing in pattern is the worst thing you could ever do, smart players will just take advantage and blow you up.
    Making Designer Combos
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    no it's not, playing in pattern is the worst thing you could ever do, smart players will just take advantage and blow you up.

    You're right on that one but I hadn't meant to do it the whole round anyway as it's a mix-up tool and as the big combo opportunity offers itself only once or twice in CvS2 but that's alright if you think about how many damage a level 3 Super does.

    Patterns are important because they're safe:


    A usual pattern of a Guile player consists of him throwing a Sonic Boom

    1.right after the opponent has been knocked down
    2.before Guile is about to jump-in

    What should be dangerous about these patterns?
    Both of them add to your offense (jump-in) and prevent you from getting Dragon punched, which is actually a great tool as jump-ins are very risky in CvS2 but Guile's fast Sonic Boom recovery solves this problem with ease.

    Now I know that my guard-crush string can be parried, Alpha-countered or even thrown out off with a well-timed reversal throw but if you don't take calculated risks THEN you'll end up in sleezy patterns.

    You can only start this string if your opponent has got only half of his guard bar left. And the risk rate isn't really high because, in general, you'll know when to begin with either this or that mix-up pattern when you've played a character for long enough.
  • HotboiHotboi Joined: Posts: 45
    i can RC st kick with ken or Rc anything to prevent ur sonic boom from hitting me or ur jump in. What you must keep in mind is Guile is a baiting charater to begin with. If you can zone, you can play Guile. he's not an offensive player. Throwing a sonic boom when the person is knocked down is smart to get some guard crushing or a little bit of damage in, but don't always be jumping in afterwards. u'll get crushed by a super, roll cancel or something that gets rid of the projectile and hitting u.

    And patterns are bad. You play in a tourney and u use maybe 2-3 patterns, the last person u play will finish u off because he'll know exactly what u do. once again, he's not an offensive player.

    I would have to agree with CMX on that one because I can't play patterns with john, ricky and many other good people.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    And patterns are bad.
    I would have to agree with CMX on that one because I can't play patterns with john, ricky and many other good people.

    I would have to disagree, at least partly, that patterns are bad.
    Safe, unpunishable patterns at range have their use in that it can get you a response in which that if you were looking for it you can respond much quicker than your average dunce who doesn't know what he's looking for.
    Problem is the word unpunishable is usually quite subjective; its a matchup specific trait often times but throwing out a 3/4s to full screen sonic boom is in itself a basic offensive pattern Guile uses to force a response he counters.

    Saying that this style of play is defensive is misleading in that the very act of throwing the sonic boom is offensive in nature.

    The same applies to close in corner games but with so many numerous RC's that move forward only Guile's safer moves following booms that are "guaranteed" to connect with no reprisal due to there being no gap in the particular "pattern" should be used, going for the generic auto-pilot stuff lots of Guiles tend to do is what gets them killed.

    Being reserved with the guardcrush strings that can be punished is key; if following a sonic boom you always followup with far s.HK, you will get punished.
    If you don't followup with far s.HK you can get away with it the once or twice you do use it in a match, but at least try to make it such so that doing it is safer, in this case like you say after the knockdown.

    If anything safe offensive patterns give the opposing player something they're looking for (yet can't do anything about), so when you switch up it stuns them mentally and helps that mixup land.

    I think the word that summarizes all the crap I wrote is telegraphing.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • CMXCMX Hateful Henry Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Hellion your talking about patterns that "everyone" knows is safe to use when you land that jab/short guard string start-up. Sevenskirt gave examples of unsafe "patterns" when you know a simple rc, JD, parry, super or anything with invincibility will solve it.

    throwing projectiles during the opponents wake up is generally a 50/50 depending on the situation, cause you might end up being the one on the end of the stick and not him. jump ins after a sonic boom isn't safe until they have blocked it until then there is a chance of taking dmg.

    it's very true that Guile is a zone type char, but if you notice there is about only 2 i think that plays a Guile in their main that is considered a pro. (both C-Guile's) Guile is not a easy character to pick up because a lot of the time people play him in a pattern without knowing it that is "easy" to read even if you think your not playing in a pattern.

    Pro's have one time patterns or patterns they will only try again a few matches from when they 1st used it, that is about it. the rest is about footsies, punish, and risk factors to gamble.

    finally s.hk is subjective to fast supers.
    Making Designer Combos
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Sevenskirt gave examples of unsafe "patterns" when you know a simple rc, JD, parry, super or anything with invincibility will solve it.

    I guess I have a way of talking out of context.
    2nd Time I've noticed such since I started posting again.
    My apologies.
    throwing projectiles during the opponents wake up is generally a 50/50 depending on the situation

    As you say, it depends on the situation, the matchups, etc.
    Jumping is bad, but some grooves let you get away with this to a degree, namely A/K and sometimes P (j/k)
    it's very true that Guile is a zone type char, but if you notice there is about only 2 i think that plays a Guile in their main that is considered a pro. (both C-Guile's) Guile is not a easy character to pick up because a lot of the time people play him in a pattern without knowing it that is "easy" to read even if you think your not playing in a pattern.

    I'm was talking pro, and then only once the opponent's cornered and then only after they've sensed that the other guy, at least mentally, has fallen apart. Only then does Guile truly go apeshit.
    Only then do you see them do things like s.HK following close in normals xx boom, in spite of the fact that s.HK may be a bad idea vs fast supers it is still done.
    Pro's have one time patterns or patterns they will only try again a few matches from when they 1st used it, that is about it. the rest is about footsies, punish, and risk factors to gamble.
    True, but some patterns factor into mixups, which arguably must be random for them to work.
    ...I think we're both trying to say the same thing, just saying it differently.
    finally s.hk is subjective to fast supers.
    That is matchup specific and depends entirely on their having meter, of course, neither of those points rule out its non-use I was just elaborating because of the previous post saying patterns are bad.

    Playing on auto-pilot is bad, but as the saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    If you're doing something that the opponent seemingly can't beat, for whatever reason, why strain yourself mentally and let your newfound keycard to winning take its course on its own because they'll give you the match messing up trying to beat whatever it is you're doing.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • CMXCMX Hateful Henry Joined: Posts: 1,178
    ...I think we're both trying to say the same thing, just saying it differently.

    I believe so, and yeah s.hk is match up specific to super punish.
    Making Designer Combos
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    But why should someone use a roll-cancelled attack in a wake-up situation? That's not very safe because you can't do a reversal roll, you know what I mean? That would take too many time.

    I still disagree with Guile being a defensive character because his great recovery and his pokes really add to his offense. He might get predictable with his Sonic Booms but they give him time and put the opponent in a pressured situation.

    None of Guile's attacks are 100% safe. It depends on the situation-Hellion has said it already-but usually you can tell whether going this or that way is safe:

    If you cornered a Zangief succesfully, have kept yourself at a "safe" distance and the Zangief stayed defensive, then there would still be a chance for your opponent to get you with Zangief's anti-air super, as Guile's s.Roundhouse is considered airborne, but you wouldn't NOT do your s.Roundhouse because you'd know that your opponent would remain defensive in this pressured situation and that your opponent would wait for a safer opportunity to super-grab you.
  • CMXCMX Hateful Henry Joined: Posts: 1,178
    the only reasons you should rc wake is to punish their meaty attack/rc or push them away from you and resume pressure strings/wait and bait. an rc boom is safe, reversal rolls are not.

    If you've noticed, all charge characters are zone and defensive types. yes they can go offensive but that is when they land a kd to go on the mix up. zangief would never catch guile's s.rh as a punish, even if its considered airborne, its only the start up that is airborne, unless you play in rythme i doubt you will get punished.
    Making Designer Combos
  • D@RUD@RU "Sonic Poo!" Joined: Posts: 265
    Guile roll is kinda slow, you can get thrown easily on reaction, punished and whatever.
    RC Boom is his main poke, it's the best thing to do against a meaty or rc meaty special. In the worst case you won't hit your opponent, but he won't hit you too, so the game kinda resets.

    Guile is more offensive in my opinion. He is the "patient" style who's will slowly control the match with constant sonic boom pressure (of course watch and react according to your opponent, random booms get you killed^^), charging bar, wait for an opening/mistake then works the guard bar at close range. If you fail, you just go back zoning.
    I can spend half the round throwing sbooms just to get that lvl3 threat. Attacking becomes way easier, and punishable patterns becomes less punishable^^

    Against characters that can't crouch his backfist replace hk with this move! Throw boom and backfist at the right distance, there is no gap and it's safe.
    "Grab a tit, squeeze!"

    CVS2 : C-Groove Claw, Guile, Sagat²
    MVC3 : Wolverine(barrage), Trish(peekaboo), IronMan(unibeam)
    SSF4: FeiLong
    Wargods -_-' The mighty ANUBIS!!!
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    If you've noticed, all charge characters are zone and defensive types.

    Your quote refers to every character. These games are about zoning, controlling space, pressuring and "encouraging" your opponent to do unsafe moves-but it's an interesting thought nonetheless.

    I've recently watched some tournament videos and I've recognised that Guiles in CvS2 are pretty defensive, to my surprise. Although it's hard for me to believe it actually makes sense when observing the matches closely enough. I haven't seen a Guile player yet starting off the match with a roll, s.Forward or even a jump-in or any other offensive movement. But these players don't take even the smallest risk, that's pretty annoying... Guile has got such great moves!

    And that meter-building-thingy... they should get rid of it in the future, just to make a remark...
  • CMXCMX Hateful Henry Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Your quote refers to every character. These games are about zoning, controlling space, pressuring and "encouraging" your opponent to do unsafe moves-but it's an interesting thought nonetheless.

    I've recently watched some tournament videos and I've recognised that Guiles in CvS2 are pretty defensive, to my surprise. Although it's hard for me to believe it actually makes sense when observing the matches closely enough. I haven't seen a Guile player yet starting off the match with a roll, s.Forward or even a jump-in or any other offensive movement. But these players don't take even the smallest risk, that's pretty annoying... Guile has got such great moves!

    And that meter-building-thingy... they should get rid of it in the future, just to make a remark...

    true that all characters in the game have those attributes but charge characters main on those 2. you can't rush with a charge character where everytime you end your guard strings with a sonic boom, gotta add those extra attacks to charge up the boom and even then Guile players wouldn't do that.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=EuyKqhB0GNc here's a vid of the best C-Guile. anyhow this thread is getting off topic, so i'm going to stop here.
    Making Designer Combos
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    true that all characters in the game have those attributes but charge characters main on those 2.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=EuyKqhB0GNc here's a vid of the best C-Guile. anyhow this thread is getting off topic, so i'm going to stop here.

    Yeah, I've thought of some characters, too, especially Remy, Urien and Q. Maybe charge characters are just a little more reliant on their positioning than others.

    The video proved me wrong concerning that reversal roll cancelled into a special attack thing we've talked about before (00:12). I'm glad to have seen it-it IS possible.

    Though Nakanishi is a great player I highly doubt that this is the most advantageous way to play Guile. It's safe to keep yourself at the right distance to exploit the range of Guile's pokes but taking risks isn't as dangerous in CvS2 as it is in Super Turbo. The reward for taking calculated risks is alot higher in CvS2 than in ST.

    Ok, from this video we've learned not to throw an empty Sonic Hurricane at max range while the opponent is crouching.
  • CMXCMX Hateful Henry Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Yeah, I've thought of some characters, too, especially Remy, Urien and Q. Maybe charge characters are just a little more reliant on their positioning than others.

    The video proved me wrong concerning that reversal roll cancelled into a special attack thing we've talked about before (00:12). I'm glad to have seen it-it IS possible.

    Though Nakanishi is a great player I highly doubt that this is the most advantageous way to play Guile. It's safe to keep yourself at the right distance to exploit the range of Guile's pokes but taking risks isn't as dangerous in CvS2 as it is in Super Turbo. The reward for taking calculated risks is alot higher in CvS2 than in ST.

    Ok, from this video we've learned not to throw an empty Sonic Hurricane at max range while the opponent is crouching.

    uh, the hurricane was a gimmick to bait an attack that Iyo didn't fall for
    Making Designer Combos
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    uh, the hurricane was a gimmick to bait an attack that Iyo didn't fall for

    I know, I've also seen videos of players who successfully got the Sonic Hurricane that way but once the opponent is crouching I highly doubt that he will move just to get hit by a level 3 Super. Instead they just keep their position and trick the Guile player.

    I've thought of throwing out a Sonic Hurricane while the opponent is dashing in. Of course this won't work on most of the characters because their dash is somekind of short "hop" but it seems very practical. It requires a very good reaction of the Guile player, however, but if it's possible for Third Strike Akuma players to react and time their Shun Goku Satsu accordingly, then there's no escape for the in-dashing opponent.
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Probably nothing worth noting, but I get that trigger finger ready for the Hurricane once I push them out far enough so that the only move that will hit that's hard to react to is Guile's Fierce Boom, maybe I'll whiff a standing forward whille charging back or a quick crouching short to bait a quick response, only if I know that player is that sort of "twitchy" kind that acts first and thinks later.
    Hurricanes tend to hit a lot of those twitchy folks.
    Point being I guess getting them at that range after a few blocked normals (a blocked string if you will) and ending it with a boom (which they may try to punish if they're that foolish) leads to a potential opening, a gap that both players should be ready for.
    It's basically a setup for a possible opening that reduces the opponent's options so that your "psychic" Hurricane has a stroner chance of hitting.
    That's basically how people land psychic dragonpunches, but the Hurricane's a ranged move and hence is used slightly differently, but follows the same principle.
    Other than that, it seems to be a mostly good footsies deterrent, makes people slightly more cautious as if you were raged, and punishing them for their lack of caution otherwise.
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
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