To critique or not to critique

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Comments

  • ProvidenceangleProvidenceangle お尻をおじさんは泣くことになる Joined: Posts: 483
    On alot of boards I've noticed(this one included) hardly anyone gives out critique and when someone asks for it, they deny any problems with their piece.

    And for the case of a member here(not going to say who) his critiques are good, but then he insults them in the process, which isn't helpful at all.
    Me? just kidding... Yeah it does seem like people are afraid to either: Hurt someone or be told they have no right to critique.
  • kurokumakurokuma Tengoku O Misete Yaru!!! Joined: Posts: 88
    OK. interesting discussion.. going on about critique..

    I agree with Bob Sagat on the critiquing... that you post to get feedback. whether positive or negative feedback.. it's at the critic's discretion. but as an artist, you have to take the both. I will add though, taking in a valid critique and one that's just a waste of time is at the artist's discretion.



    kurokuma, there are rules and theories in art. but in my opinion. you gotta learn the rules to break them.

    the rules and or theories are not important to an artists growth and are put there by people who want to make you into a carbon copy of those who came before you.

    just ask cave men painting on their cave walls or any other of historys past artist if they took any figure drawing or 3d art desighn classes before they started painting.



    point is when you make something it is art. and if it makes someone feel sumthin or if people like it, it is recognized art.

    this computer monitor im sitting in front of was created by an artist. our ipods where, my tooth brush was. if these people where following some kind of rule then i doubt we would have nearly as many useful things as we now do today. you dont have to break a rule if you didnt care about the rules in the first place.

    just ask akira noriaki, the artist of "jojo's bizzare adventure." his charachters are drawn all messed up looking with impossible body positions and a lot of times you can barely tell what the fuck is going on. but its great anyway. its different and fells like a dream like world. i cant even name another japanese manga with perfectly drawn characters that follow some hard core artistic rtules that are as populare as jojo in japan.

    most of the junk...no, damn near all of the junk art teachers teach kids in class boils down to putting your free flowing artistic ability into a box of their choice. the normal art teachers class is this: comic books are not art, this is my fav. artist!, his work is god, you will agree with me on that or you will fail, you will copy my fav. artist becouse he is right you are wrong and my art teacher and his art teacher before him where all made to copy this style, here are the tools you need to copy my fav. artists style, and your grade depends on how well you bend to these ideas regardless of whatever personal styles you may have cookin in your brain when you got here.

    this is every art teacher i have ever met in my life and when i was in college i was taking damn near 9 hours of art.

    everyone has a person they copy though so if there are any rules id say they are the ones we set ourselves based off of the art or artist we where inspiered by when we started. melodic death metal band "In Flames" was inspiered by "Iron Maiden" but their music sounds compleatly different. this is good insperation in my opinion, theres nothing wrong with that. just dont tell us that one artists rules are correct over all else and we have no choice other than to agree and carbon copy them.



    you lose a large percentage of your artistic freedom and abillity thinking that you can only make art one way. or that there are rules to it. i will never buy into that crap.

    everything we make is art and art exsisted before stuck up artistic rules came about boxin mufuckas artistic ideas in a little room.

    rules have nothing to do with art. and the rules that do exsist where made for one reason and that is so that other artist will continue to reproduce the same kinds of art only slightly different according to their individual art styles.....if all artist fall into this trap then our future artist are going to have a borring future indeed.

    anyway, im not saying you said any of this. it was just a more detailed rant about so called rules in art. just my opinion though, evewryone is different.
    The worst enemy of the street fighter community IS the Street Fighter Community.
  • Dreaded FistDreaded Fist Joined: Posts: 1,920
    Man I think you're going on and on about the rules of art and I'm not sure what rules you're referring to. I think you're missing the whole point here. Following the rules doesn't make you a carbon copy. Following the rules ensure that whatever you put on the paper will look believable and desirable. Also you're thinking about art in terms of fine art where as everyone here is speaking from an academic standpoint. Sure if you wanna draw like cavemen on walls then art rules won't matter. But if you're trying to draw something convincing, why not make it...convincing?



    "the rules and or theories are not important to an artists growth and are put there by people who want to make you into a carbon copy of those who came before you."
    Again I'm not sure what rules you're talking about but without studying what works and what doesn't, how are you going to get better? Why would you draw something wrong 100 times when you can just figure out why it doesn't work and draw it right the first time?


    All the extreme artists you see out there that exaggerates the hell out of the figures all know the rules before they "break" them. And by breaking the rules of natural anatomy and proportion they're following a different rule. That is the rule of exaggerating for effects. That's the difference between a good artist and a mediocre one, a good artist knows where and how much to push. If you ask me idolizing and studying artists with distinctive styles will just make you a carbon copy of them rather than learning the rules of art and applying them to your work.



    In the end if it doesn't make sense to you then do follow it, but find out why. But know that the rules of nature cannot be tampered with without understanding how things work. So study anatomy and perspective and I promise they will do more good than harm.
    www.phongworks.com
  • Bland_WolfBland_Wolf Are You OK? Joined: Posts: 419
    it's the truth. you gotta learn how to perform a fireball before you can start to use it in the way you want. without knowing the basics we wouldn't be able to manipulate them to surpass those limits. it's true, tho, that you don't need to learn the rules. ppl find out how to do things themselves all the time. but if we didn't pass on this knowledge everyone would be 50 years behind schedule.
    as far as art goes, imo, the most basic way i would put it is art is the representation of an idea. the boundaries are endless as to what you could call or not call art. and more so as everyone's experiences cause ppl to view things differently. but in this forum it's pretty obvious what type of art people post, or rather what they're intending to show. that skill alone is what makes everyone here --- EVERYONE --- good enough. and the more experienced folk here are just tryin to help and push others. and if the posters don't want that feedback that's cool too.
    all in all we learn the rules so we have a platform to launch from. not to chain us to the ground. and we have critiques to help each other launch from a stronger, higher platform. that's all.
    ~dizzy my future, silly my way~
  • Bob SagatBob Sagat Akuma Thurman Joined: Posts: 1,547
    the commands and or strategiess are not important to a player's growth and are put there by people who want to make you into a carbon copy of those who came before you.

    just ask people playing Street Fighter 1 if they looked up match vids or written down strategies before they started playing.

    I didn't feel like doing this to the entire post, but I think you know what the general response on this forum would be if this had been an FGD post.

    Also:
    this computer monitor im sitting in front of was created by an artist. our ipods where, my tooth brush was. if these people where following some kind of rule then i doubt we would have nearly as many useful things as we now do today. you dont have to break a rule if you didnt care about the rules in the first place.

    Technically, no. Those were invented by well, inventors, or I guess engineers. All these items you have listed are functional items, not art. They could become art in the hands of someone like, Marcel Duchamp, but that's another story.

    When cavemen were painting on walls, they were trying to paint real things; animals, each other, etc. They had no rules, sure, because they were the first to do this. They were trying to create and establish the rules we have today.
    The rules of naturalism(often mistakenly referred to as realism) aren't created by man, but by well, nature.
    Nature made things look a certain way, and anything that doesn't at least borrow some key elements from it will look strange to anyone.

    OF COURSE you don't have to follow any rules as an artist, but please, when someone throws a hissy fit when someone else tells them they can't draw 3 biceps on one arms because it looks stupid, who's really in the wrong here?

    When you draw a human, don't you draw the head in between the shoulders, or the legs at the bottom of the body? Sure, you can switch it around in the name of fantasy, or draw someone with an extra pair of arms (Goro :P), but you'll draw them in a way that it looks like your creation is alive. (Doesn't necessarily mean photo realistic, but you make it look like a living creature, not a random collage)

    I'm no advocate of pure naturalism, nor do I feel that everything that isn't drawn in a photo realistic way is bad, on the contrary. There is quite a thick line between bad art and abstracted art though.
    If you look at something and the artist's intention is clear, but it's also clear that that goal hasn't been reached, either due to poor skill, poor taste, or poor judgement, it's usually bad.
    That doesn't mean it can't be fixed though. And that's exactly what criticism is for! :woot:
    Roald Dhalsim
  • rookrook amused observer Joined: Posts: 1,633 mod
    while I'm sure there are people (usually grumpy, curmudgeonly art teachers who are stuck and unhappy) who rip ppl's art because they think they're this generation's answer to Rembrandt, I think there are tons more ppl who give constructive criticism for the sake of helping one another get better.

    I know that's how I improved. When ppl respond to my posts with comments like "hey, you need more work on your anatomy/linework/etc... his bicep really shouldn't look this way when he's in this position", I really appreciate it because ppl are taking the time to help me get better.

    As DFist mentioned -- ppl should try to know the rules before you intentionally break them. Anatomy, composition, a little bit on colour theory, etc. Yes, there are some ppl who catch these things really fast without much effort, but they are in the vast minority.

    And understanding the rules doesn't mean you should follow them all the time, but there is a difference between choosing to break the rules for intended effect, and breaking the rules because the artist didn't know any better. An artist can't deconstruct things properly without knowing why they work in the fist place.
    square peg. round hole. large hammer.
    http://rook-over-here.deviantart.com
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    It's hard to determine the divide between harsh and constructive criticism. If we think harsh is something that hurts the feelings or sensibilities of the artist, then harsh criticism can also be constructive. I've met a few people who ask what I think and when I comment on what could use more attention, they get hurt.

    I understand other forms of harsh criticism. Saying it looks like crap, being offensive or insulting. Though this is just "stupid" criticism without real thinking, foresight, or effort into why they don't like it.

    It's like the difference between being told you suck at Street Fighter, or being told "okay, this is why you lost/try this next time/etc." Personally, as long as comments can help me better understand what's working/what's not, then a great favor has been granted. Though I also assume not everyone feels the same and only get into the nitty-gritty crits if that's what they're looking for.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    this thread is on like donkey kong :D
  • akumachanakumachan The haters have arrived Joined: Posts: 435 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    OMG. I can't believe this thread is still here and that people have been using recently. :sweat:
    I love a guy with a HUGE vocabulary.
  • HanzouHanzou Genius of Fisticuffs Joined: Posts: 299
    I love criticism only because it can help with a picture. My recent Hellboy picture got some great crits from various forums, and it helped me produce a better picture overall.

    Hellboycolor.jpg

    Yay!!

    Artists shouldn't be afraid of criticism. Just stop, listen, and embrace what someone is saying about your work. Be honest to yourself, and if your work needs improvement, IMPROVE it. If you can't take criticism, then you'll never improve because you believe your work is perfect. Nothing is perfect, everything needs improving.

    Now, that's not to say that you should take everything someone says to heart, or alter your style to fit someone else's vision of YOUR style. There's some real jerks out there who's criticism is completely useless to you.
  • InafuneInafune Joined: Posts: 9
    Wow, that's awesome work man...nice :tup:
  • ScissormanScissorman Neal D. Anderson Joined: Posts: 1,170
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin

    I think the visor is pure awesomeness. Good shading skills.

    My critique would be to crop the picture where his shoulders end and add a background.
  • DarkVegetaDarkVegeta []D - [] - []\/[] - []D Joined: Posts: 30
    are u still the same achan from years ago or someone else usin the acct? never did find out what happened to u.
    ><_>< Temporarily Sober ><_><
  • momokomomoko banana Joined: Posts: 5
    maybe a grey or neutral darker color background. since there's so much dark, the white sort of strains the eyes.
  • shubaccashubacca so many long time Joined: Posts: 329
    Artists wouldn't have explored theory if they didn't want to know why something did or didn't work. When something is irking you about your work, that is proof that there are rules/theory you haven't followed.

    Believe me, your ipod, and your monitor were indeed designed following some rules.

    I see where you come from. It simply comes down to what you do with the feedback. Those who want to improve, or those who wish to share what they enjoyed creating will handle criticism differently.
  • Xenozip.Xenozip. what a nincowpoop Joined: Posts: 3,942
    -snip-
    Regarding critique: the word itself is synonymous with criticism. But in my opinion, any sort of criticism one could give could be reworded in the form of advice. Saying the exact same thing, but worded in a positive way instead of a negative way.

    Instead of saying "this is wrong it breaks the rules" one could say "try this, because..", and so on.

    It's true artists should not be afraid of crit, but, it's common courtesy to ask first before giving crit. Uninvited opinions are uninvited. Posting art to the public is not the same as posting words on a message board, because sometimes art is very a personal form of expression that is directly connected to ability/capability/thought/execution, and some people just do not enjoy having their heart and soul pissed on by uninvited guests.
    Let's play.
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    I dont critique unless they ask for opinions or give some hint they want criticism. i really hate it when someone realize the other artist made something they are jealous of and they say "HAY! But his left pinky nail is too far to the left!" You pretty much give your position away with that.
    My drawing:
    Mai cheats on Ryu - "Shin Shoryuken!"

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7115525&postcount=252
  • akuaku スピリチュアルやからね! Joined: Posts: 3,865
    I usually don't ask for critiques much, but I do honestly want to get better at coloring in photoshop(I'm still garbage despite 10 years under my belt). Just posted up my latest work, comments/criticism would be greatly appreciated.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, panty shot, possibly nsfw
    http://akuuu.deviantart.com/#/d31gmr5
  • Mr ListMr List Lord of the Scrubs Joined: Posts: 1,393
    it's beyond my level to be able to judge that picture for flaws.
    Hey hey let's go kenka suru , Taisetsu no mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so let's fighting...
    Let's fighting love!
    Let's fighting love!
  • TaitoTaito Great Thing Joined: Posts: 7,097
    The major thing that I'd change is the depth/proportion by making the thighs bigger..

    Do you use 'Flip canvas horizontally' in Photoshop? Helps a lot in spotting anything in your linework that looks 'off.'
  • TacticalNoirTacticalNoir Joined: Posts: 70
    Aku: Some, hopefully, constructive critique is coming here =) I am usually to lazy to ciritique people, but i thought the linework on that picture was so good that i would like to help with a few pointers about the colouring and possibly line work =).

    First, the lines. As I said, i think the lineart is awesome. The lines themselves though, could use some work. Sense your using photoshop i will assume your using a tablet. If not, then you can dissregard what i say here =)

    I have no idea if you made the lines in photoshop, or if their the scanned lines from your original art. For a picture like this i would recomend to either scan it in a much higher resolution, or just redraw all the lines in photoshop to make them more crisp. Reason im saying this is because right now they feel a bit pixelated, and a cleaner/crisper lineart would go better with the choice of colouring you picked.
    (If you want i could go in depth on how to ink in photoshop or illustrator). When inking in photoshop, its important to use pen pressure, so you can controll the thickness of the lines.

    And speaking of colouring, I was in the same position as you last year and wanted to get better at colouring in photoshop. What you first need to do is to decide what kind of colouring you wanna make. I mean, sometimes one can see an awesome cell shaded pic, and think i wanna do that. And the day after that you see a more paint/water colour style and think thats the way to go. So decide what kind of colouring style you wanna do. An advice is to make one picture, and colour it in several ways and see what your most comfortable with.

    The way you coloured this picture seems to be a mix of paint style and cell shading (with soft edges), and its nothing wrong with that, but i think it will be easier for you to focus on improving when you have only one style to focus on.

    Random tips:
    Avoid soft brushes and smudge tool as much as you can. A brush with opacity pressure sensitivity is much to be prefered over the other two. Soft brushes and smudge tools might seem cool at first, but you will learn alot more by not using them (they have their uses, but its better to learn how to shade without them in the beginning)


    For the style you used to colour this picture, i would use more shades of the different colours, like the way you coloured her thighs. Thighs are very well shaded, the shirt could be better of =)

    And thats it, hope i was to any help. And remember, only reason i wrote all this was because i was very impressed with the lineart =) Im also very tired, so i hope i didnt write to much nonsense.

    And btw, heres the pic i made when i myself decided on how to colour:

    Colour test by *RainyDaySunshine on deviantART

    basically i just made a lineart and coloured it in different ways and then picked the style i thought looked best with the way i do my lineart (i picked the cell shading style, yea i know, its sort of lazy of me because it doesnt require as much effort. But I myself much prefer to focus on lineart, and i think colouring is a bit dull =) )
    www.rainydaysunshine.se
  • akuaku スピリチュアルやからね! Joined: Posts: 3,865
    Taito: You're right, the proportions are pretty off on the legs. I'll try to fix those on PS.

    TacticalNoir: First off, thank you for the critique. :)

    - You're right about the linework in that I should've scanned it in at a much higher resolution. I used my school's scanner and I still need to figure out how to use it proper.
    - That's actually a good idea, in that I should decide on which coloring style I wanna focus on in one picture. I'm not necessarily new to CG coloring but I've never been good at it so all my stuff ends up looking like experimental poopy. haha
    - Ah yes, the smudge tool. I do need to stop using it..it never really does produce the results I want anyway.

    Thanks for the compliment on my linework. I'll be honest and say that I'm rubbish when it comes to coloring, be it paints, colored pencils, pastels and so on, which is why I'm trying to at least improve with CG.

    Again, thanks for the critique and advice. Much appreciated. :)
  • Zabuza22Zabuza22 Joined: Posts: 189
    good answer Dreaded Fist
  • ScootsScoots Joined: Posts: 1
    If somebody posts their work in an open forum they should at least expect criticism.
    There is a fine line between criticism and bashing somebodies art. Bashing somebodies art is never appropriate, however trying to help somebody improve is.
    Honest and helpful constructive criticism should always be welcomed.
    I know how much it can hurt for somebody to criticize your art, but if you can learn to not take the criticism personally it can really help you improve in anything you do.
    But like I said, there is a difference between bashing and criticism.
  • RagingDemonStormRagingDemonStorm The power of elevation Joined: Posts: 3,182
    So I'm thinking about getting this peice of art oil painted on a canvas. I don't have a deviantart account so I want to give the creator luckfield credit for this piece before I get it done and I'll take a pic of the finished product.
    CVS2 Akuma\Geese\whoevers top tier in that groove
  • AOS-AOS- C Joined: Posts: 3,269
    edited June 2013
    BTW, how do you put a pic on your computer on here?

    You can use a scanner or a camera if you don't have a scanner to get yourself a digital copy. Use an image uploading site like imageshack, photobucket, imgur or flickr..... or even other sites like deviantart, facebook, or even a blogging website. Once that's done, grab their image URL. The uploading sites can get you it easily, but in general you can right-click any image > Copy Image URL/Address and then paste it here on SRK or any forum.

    If you're completely new to computers, the Image URL is essentially just an address with the image file name at the end (i.e. http://www.whateverwebsiteitis.com/image-file-name.jpg). you'll know it's an image url when the last bit of it is an image file extension such as .jpg, .gif, .png, .bmp, etc..


    Anyway, since SRK used BBCode, what you need to do is create image tags which look like this: you'll have that in place, then paste your image url after it (with no spaces in between), and then close it with.

    Example:
    homer11.gif

    to instantly understand image codes or any BBcodes, quote this post and see how the tagging looks ^.
    PSN/Steam: AOS- [Gouken, Ryu]
    Wii U (SSB4): Okrapaeli [Mario, Link]
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