Use Your Friends as Weapons - Olimar Talk

Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravelJoined: Posts: 4,069 mod
I've only been playing a couple days so I'm not terribly good yet.

Love some pointers if anyone else is figuring him out. My big problem with him is getting

KO's. Seems like his down smash is the best KO move, but his up-smash is good too if you can land it. Sometimes Pikmin Chain ko's at high percentage, but I think you may have to "tipper" it.

The yellow, blue, and red pikmin all seem about equal for smashed and throwing. The purple ones are great for smashes, and good for throwing if you're also throwing some other pikming (they do knockback, which is nice in the middle of throwing other pikmin) The white ones are awesome for throwing, but icky for smashes.

Discuss!

...seriously.
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Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I don't know how much this will help you, but from fooling around and what I've read/seen, up smash is actually the best smash. It combos pretty well when at low percent, has a good range and has a better knock back than down smash. I'm not sure what the trouble is from, but from what I recall, I don't remember seeing you use it much when we played. Maybe try to juggle with up air to try to get damage and use up smash to KO.
  • JuddfroJuddfro Joined: Posts: 106
    I tend to throw a lot of the non-purple pikmin at my opponent, if you can get a lot on them the damage can climb to somewhat big levels. then smash em with purple of course. Thats the extent of my Olimar knowledge.
  • Trophy ClubTrophy Club Inspirada Club Joined: Posts: 455
    Some good things to know
    DoT = Damage over time like in any MMO

    Red Blue Yellow Pikmin all do the same DoT at 16% if left unshaken off and what not
    White Pikmin does 48% if not shaken off.
    Purple Pikmin only hits for 6% but it has a ton of knockback

    Blue and white pikmin get throw the farthest, because olimar uses his pikmin for nearly all his attacks this includes his normal throws, so your throw has much more range when using a blue or white pikmin.

    dAir is a spike, without the long windup like most characters have. It's ridiculous how fast it comes out and its way easy to hit somebody with.

    FSmash is really useful for edgeguarding, if someone is hanging on ledge just start charging from a safe distance Fsmash if they get up release it, if they stay on ledge waiting for you to attack your pikmin when it is falling down off the ledge still is active and will hit them.

    His tilts and up air are his only non pikmin requiring attacks, so using these does not change your order of pikmin.

    His down b whistle has some invincibility on it, so you can use it to blow through big moves like DK's punch if you hit it at the right time and punish him for it. Only recommended on big obvious attacks.

    His tether up+b while being extremely easy to hog him, it is also really easy to edge hog with it jump off the edge and fast fall up b and you ll be pretty much safe in anybody attempt to get back on the stage so unless they make it clean they dont stand a chance. Also if you're going to get edge hogged whistle spam while you re floating back towards stage until you get a purple or blue pikmin. Throw it at your opponent they'll either get hit off the edge or forced to go back up so you can come back safely. If you don't have blue or purple though you re screwed.

    I'll write more when I think of it. Btw throw pikmin liberally! Olimar can repick all his pikmin in an instance. The sacrafice for picking more compared to the amount of frustration your opponent gets from chasing you around while you rack up his Damage is completely in your favor.
  • UtsusemiUtsusemi S.O.N.S Joined: Posts: 200
    I've only been playing a couple days

    It's only been out a couple days lol
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    I've noticed that when opponents have a bunch of pikmin on them, they get knocked way farther by smash attacks. Am I just dreaming this up?

    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    Ok so a few things of importance.

    Up-smash is by far his best KO move.

    Interesting quirk - The pikmin grow buds, and then flowers if they're out for a while without dying. Flower pikmin do more damage and knockback than bud pikmin. Buds do more than leaves.

    Down-smash is his fastest smash, and might be his fastest grounded move. I'm not sure abour his AA. I don't use it much.

    Pikmin chain is an awesome anti-air. Great for edgeguarding people who come in high. Does lots of damage and great knockback, and incredible range when you have a lot of pikmin.

    Pikmin throw has a lot of lag on the end. Be careful of throwing when someone is moving towards you unless you've got some purples.

    Dair is an awesome spike.

    His best moves for hitting the smashball are nair, uair, and pikmin chain.

    His dash attack is deceptively good.

    His side and down tilts are only worth anything if you have no pikmin. Otherwise, just smash. (and maybe do AA if you're%
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  • Trophy ClubTrophy Club Inspirada Club Joined: Posts: 455
    I disagree with one that about his tilts being worthless unless you don't have pikmin. His up tilt because he hops in the air jumps over a lot of grounded attacks like when people are running at you, also hits deep short hoppers because it has good priority. You can usually combo another one right afterwards and if they don't DI away you get a free up smash as well. But yeah the other tilts are really unimpressive

    I noticed his up smash is stupidly fast, you can do it repeatedly and just watch him toss up pikmin rapidly. Makes it rather scary to approach olimar.

    I don't got much else for today
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    Thanks. Edited my post above. I'm gonna try using utilt tomorrow.

    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • ShadeShade FEMLE Joined: Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    quiche kicked my 'dorf's ass with Olimar. That little bastard just hurls Pikmin around, like it's nobodies business., And they cancel most projectiles out, AND close ranger specials (Falcon Kick/Wizard's Foot included).
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    Ok so a few things of importance.

    Up-smash is by far his best KO move.

    Interesting quirk - The pikmin grow buds, and then flowers if they're out for a while without dying. Flower pikmin do more damage and knockback than non-flower pikmin.

    Down-smash is his fastest smash, and might be his fastest grounded move. I'm not sure abour his AA. I don't use it much.

    Pikmin chain is an awesome anti-air. Great for edgeguarding people who come in high. Does lots of damage and great knockback, and incredible range when you have a lot of pikmin.

    Pikmin throw has a lot of lag on the end. Be careful of throwing when someone is moving towards you unless you've got some purples.

    Dair is an awesome spike.

    His best moves for hitting the smashball are nair, uair, and pikmin chain.

    His dash attack is deceptively good.

    His tilts are only worth anything if you have no pikmin. Otherwise, just smash. (and maybe do AA if you're in a tight spot)

    That's all for now. I'm no good at percentages and frame data and stuff like that, so I hope someone else takes an interest and can post that.

    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    I stole this from SmashBoards. It's really helpful.

    PIKMIN ORDER & WHISTLE

    Your pikmin will queue up in this order:
    red, yellow, blue, white, purple. We'll call this the hierarchy.
    Like colors will queue together if they can* and the first time you whistle in a match, your red pikmin will jump to the front of the line with the rest following in order of the hierarchy. If you whistle again and again the pikmin will cycle through in the order listed above (skipping missing pikmin of course).

    Once you start attacking with your pikmin, whether it's a pikmin toss or even just a smash, they will be out of order (even if they didn't get mixed up!) so that when you whistle again, the color of the second pikmin in line won't be the ones called to the front of the line, instead the color called to the front will be whichever color pikmin follows after the last one that was called to the front the last time you whistled (but if that color pikmin is currently unavailable it will skip to the color after). We'll refer to this as your whistle order. Your whistle order will start at red at the start of the match and will be constant until you whistle again (no matter what you do with you pikmin in the meantime).

    So here's a quick example:
    At the start of a match, you pluck your pikmin and let's say you come up with this queue: red, white , blue, purple, red, purple.
    Now your whistle order starts at red, so no matter how you mix up those pikmin, the first time you whistle, your queue should* look like this:
    red, red, blue, white, purple, purple.

    After this whistle your whistle order would normally go to yellow since that's next in the pikmin hierarchy, but you don't currently have any, so instead your whistle order would jump to blue and your blue pikmin would go in front:
    blue, white, purple, purple, red, red (notice how the hierarchy wraps around).

    Now, again, you can do whatever you want with these pikmin to mix them up, but the next time you whistle if you have a white pikmin (even if your old one died and you plucked a new one) your whistle order will jump to white since it comes after blue in the hierarchy.

    Why is this important?
    The best answer right off the top of my head is recovery. If you set your whistle order to white** and leave it there (by not whistling again), if there are any purple pikmin in your queue (or near enough to respond to the whistle) they will jump to the front and you will be able to use it to knock off anyone that is edge hogging you. You will then be able to use your tether to recover.

    You don't have to leave your whistle order at a certain color though. You may want to use your whistle armor, but in this case you can simply figure how many times you will need to whistle to get your whistle order back to purple. You can whistle much faster in the air, so hopefully you will have enough time to whistle the appropriate number of times to get a purple pikmin in front to toss at the edge hogger. However, the fewer whistles you have to do to get your purple pikmin up front, the safer you'll be.

    Addendum
    It's important to note that if your whistle order is at yellow, but your yellow pikmin don't jump to the front for some reason*, and blue jumps to the front of the line instead, your whistle order does not change to blue. Meaning the next time you whistle, blue pikmin will jump to the front of the line again.

    The quick and easy version:
    Just remember which color went to the front of the line the last time you whistled, and the color following that in the hierarchy will be the first in line the next time you whistle. It's that easy. :)


    * = pikmin can get hung up doing other things and occassionally won't line up properly.

    ** = It need not necessarily be white, but whatever color in the hierarchy comes before purple excluding the color of pikmin you don't have, so if you only had yellow, blue and purple pikmin in your queue, setting your whistle order to blue would ensure that you would get purple pikmin the next time you whistled (unless you pulled a white pikmin in the meantime, in which case you would have to whistle twice).


    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    Being above Olimar is a bad place to be. His Up-smash, Uair, and Up+B are all really nasty to people waiting above you. try to stay underneath your opponents.

    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    Until we get some serious players here, I'm gonna hafta keep stealing from smashboards.
    NC-Echo's Olimar guide

    Exciting News: First off, I like posting big news under big and red titles. More importantly over the next few weeks I plan to be updating the Character Match-ups section of the guide. I have asked several of the most knowledgeable brawl players currently on the forums to help me in this by writing the description sections for their respective character mains. My most recent contributer has been lord karn. lord karn is a good buddy of mine and easily one of the top players in North Carolina. If you see him at a tournament watch out because he has had a whole whole lot of practice against Olimar. If you are reading this guide to learn how to play against Olimar I would recommend contacting him because he has got it down.

    Table of Contents

    1. Pikmin type?s attributes
    a. Blue
    b. Red
    c. Yellow
    e. White
    f. Purple
    g. Explanation of pikmin evolution differences
    2. Moveset
    3. Damage table
    4. Pikmin Durability table
    5. Advanced Tech
    6. Recovering
    7. Strategies
    8. Character Match-ups
    9. Stages
    10. FAQ
    11. Misconceptions
    12. Gameplay Videos
    13.Credits



    1. Pikmin type?s attributes
    a.Red
    • Immune to fire: what this means is that if a red pikmin comes in contact with fire it will not dies while all others will.
    b.Blue
    • Immune to water: what this means is that if a blue pikmin comes in contact with water it will not die while all others will.
    • Has only slightly less durability than purple
    c.Yellow
    • Immune to electricity: what this mean is that if a yellow pikmin comes in contact with electricity it will not die while all others will.
    • When thrown it follows a higher arc.
    e.White
    • When thrown it flies faster and farther than others.
    • Has less survivability than all other pikmin.
    • Weight=light
    f.Purple
    • Less range on almost all attacks.
    • When thrown it doesn't fly as far.
    • More Knock-back on all attacks
    • More damage on most attacks.
    • Has considerably more survivability than other pikmin.
    • Weight=heavy
    g.Explanation of pikmin evolution differences
    After doing numerous tests with the help of Projectiled we found there to be no difference between the different types of pikmin (i.e. leaf, bud, flower).
    The following things we confirmed about the subject:
    • No variation in damage
    • No variation in knockback
    • No variation in average latch number
    • No variation in durability
    • No additional 'armor'
    • No healing benefits (when we first noticed the 1% armor, we questioned if perhaps the process of upgrading to the new form reset the damage)
    • No variation in range
    • No variation in return/moving/flying speed
    • No variation in attack lag or windup
    • No variation in 'elemental' attack


    2. Moveset
    Note:
    • Range and Knock-back will be rated on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the best and 1 being the worst. This scale will be based on Olimar?s attacks alone with the best move range wise receiving a 10 and the best move knock-back wise receiving a 10.
    • Whenever Olimar does a move that uses pikmin the pikmin used falls to the back of the line after the move. The only move that uses pikmin and doesnt change the order of the line is Olimar's U-B.
    • N-air
      • Description: Olimar spins in the air, completing a 1080.
      • Uses: This move can be deceiving. The graphic for this move makes it look like your doing a lot of damage but the damage for the move is only moderate (12%) and it can be hard to hit with. It?s a good move to use when your opponent is on top of you.
      • Range: 1
      • Knock-back: 3
    • F-air
      • Description: Olimar swings in front of him from slightly above and behind his head to below and behind is body the next pikmin in line.
      • Uses: This move can sometimes get you the kill and it comes out pretty quick. It?s a good move to use just don?t spam it too much.
      • Range: 3
      • Knock-back: 6
    • D-air
      • Description: Olimar swings down from above him the next pikmin in line.
      • Uses: This move is a spike (with red, yellow, and blue pikmin) and so if you are in a position to spike it?s a good move to use. Be careful though when trying to spike; Olimar?s recovery is easily gimped, so if you mess up you may lose a life.
      • Range: 3
      • Knock-back: 6
    • U-air
      • Description: Olimar throws above him the next pikmin. The pikmin flips twice.
      • Uses: This is one of Olimar?s best moves for racking up the damage. This move coupled with Olimar?s U-smash will make people wary when they are above you.
      • Range: 7
      • Knock-back: 8
    • B-air
      • Decsription: Olimar spins once and swings horizontally the next pikmin in line.
      • Uses: This move is very similar in use to the F-air.
      • Range: 3
      • Knock-back: 6
    • F-tilt
      • Description: Olimar jumps forward launching his feet first.
      • Uses: This move has good range and its decent knocking people back just enough to start a combo. It?s a good move to do to keep your play varied.
      • Range: 7
      • Knock-back: 2
    • D-tilt
      • Description: Olimar dives sliding across the ground.
      • Uses: This move can be a good combo starter at low percents. It has a little lag afterward though and as with all of Olimar?s tilts you don?t have the luxury of a disjointed hit-box like you do with most of his moves.
      • Range: 5
      • Knock-back: 4
    • U-tilt
      • Description: Olimar jumps and spins 3 times.
      • Uses: Good range but not a disjointed hit box. Personally if I am ever in a position where I can do this move I would just assume U-smash.
      • Range: 9
      • Knock-back: 6
    • F-throw
      • Description: Olimar sends the next pikmin in line forward to grab the opponent. The pikmin pulls the opponent back in then spins as it throw the opponent forward.
      • Uses: All of Olimar?s throws are good. This throw is best used at high percents when you want the person off the edge; you probably wont get a kill with it though.
      • Range: 9
      • Knock-back: 6
    • D-throw
      • Description: Olimar sends the next pikmin in line forward to grab the opponent. The pikmin pulls the opponent back, lays the opponent on the grabs and then slams itself into the opponent.
      • Uses: My personally favorite throw. This one is great for combos. Trying catching them with an U-smash after this throw at low percents.
      • Range: 9
      • Knock-back: 2
    • U-throw
      • Description: Olimar sends the next pikmin in line forward to grab the opponent. The pikmin pulls the opponent back and then leaps spinning the opponent upside down and slamming him head first into the ground.
      • Uses: Decent throw but I personally don?t use it much. It doesn?t combo well and it?s not strong enough to be a good move unless your opponent is pretty high. Best used as a kill move at high percents with purple pikmin.
      • Range: 9
      • Knock-back: 7
    • B-throw
      • Description: Olimar sends the next pikmin in line forward to grab the opponent. The pikmin pulls the opponent back in the fall backward while throwing the opponent back.
      • Uses: Good for when you want to get the opponent off the stage. It can be a kill move at high percents. Best used as a kill move with blue pikmin.
      • Range: 9
      • Knock-back: 6
    • Throw hit
      • Description: The pikmin currently grabbing slams its head into the opponent.
      • Uses: Good for racking up damage, be careful though it seems to be easier to break out of grabs than it was in melee.
      • Range: NA
      • Knock-back: NA
    • F-smash
      • Description: Olimar sends the next pikmin in line flying forward.
      • Uses: This move has amazing range and can be a good kill move. This move is great for spacing (keeping the optimal distance between you and your opponent) and can really surprise people when it comes out. It has little start up lag and little finishing lag.
      • Range: 10
      • Knock-back: 7
    • D-smash
      • Description: Olimar sends two pikmin charging head first from either side of him.
      • Uses: This smash has less range than the others but it can still be a really good kill move. It?s good to use when you are not in a position to U-smash but are close enough to hit with it.
      • Range: 5
      • Knock-back: 8
    • U-smash
      • Description: Olimar throws the next pikmin in line straight up in the air.
      • Uses: This is Olimar?s best smash. It does pretty decent damage, combos well at low percents, has amazing range (try using this through platforms), and will probably be your most reliable kill move.
      • Range: 9
      • Knock-back: 10
    • Jab 1
      • Description: Olimar swings his head forward (his antenna also has a hitbox).
      • Uses: Olimar jab is ok. I don?t like it much but it could be that I?m just not used to it. It can be good to surprise your opponent with but don?t expect to get much of a combo started from it.
      • Range: 2
      • Knock-back: NA
    • Jab 2
      • Description: Olimar swings his head back.
      • Uses: This move can only be used after first using Olimar?s Jab 1. It?s the best move to use if you first hit with Jab 1.
      • Range: 3
      • Knock-back: 3
    • Running
      • Description: Olimar does a summersault.
      • Uses: This move isn?t necessary bad it?s just that this move is Olimar attacking and therefore does not have a disjointed hit-box. It?s good for getting a combo started if you can hit with and it?s pretty fast. I look at it as a good way to keep play varied.
      • Range: NA
      • Knock-back: 5
    • F-special (Latch)
      • Description: Olimar throws a pikmin forward. When the pikmin hit the enemy they latch and swing the head into the opponent (similar to throw hit) 8 to 10 times or until knocked off. It takes Olimar about 2 sec. to throw 6 pikmin.
      • Uses: This move makes Olimar. You can rack up some really good damage with this move and it?s really good to keep your opponents busy. If you?re not doing anything else I recommend spamming this move. To probably take advantage of this move you will need to get used to the distance each pikmin flies and the arcs they follow. I find this move is best used out of a jump.
      • Range: 10
      • Knock-back: 4 (with purple)
    • N-special
      • Description: Olimar pulls pikmin out of the ground and throws them behind him. It takes Olimar little over 1 sec. to pull 6 out.
      • Uses: This move is very fast and it?s essential to playing Olimar. It?s good to use this whenever you have some time and don?t have 6 pikmin.
      • Range: NA
      • Knock-back: NA
    • D-special
      • Description: Olimar blows his whistle and a ring of colors expands around him. All pikmin on the stage return to Olimar and line up behind him; if Olimar performs this move while off the stage all pikmin close enough to him will return.
      • Uses: This moves primary function is to call your pikmin back to you; however it has a number of uses. You?ll need to use when recovering to get all your pikmin together. It switches the order of your pikmin so it?s essential for when you need a certain kind of pikmin. It also has a few frames of super armor right at the beginning of it so you can really surprise your opponent with it.
      • Range: NA
      • Knock-back: NA
    • U-special
      • Description: Olimar throws all the pikmin following him at a 45 degree angle in front of him. If close to the edge the pikmin will grab it. If someone is edgehogging the pikmin may hit the opponent but still will not grab the edge. This move does not alter the order of the pikmin.
      • Uses: This move is Olimar?s only means of recovering after to uses his 2nd jump (unless you get a footstole jump off). It can be easily gimped so be careful. It does moves you up a little bit so if you right next to edge you can use it to get you over the lip of the stage. This move can also be used as an attack though I rarely use it for that. It can be good for surprising your opponent but the knock-back is minimal. There is however little risk in using this move if you opponent is far away.
      • Range: 10 (variable)
      • Knock-back: 3
    3. Damage table
    Note:
    • On Latching pikmin seem to hit for 8-10 hits (assuming the move is not suffering from diminishing returns) if they are not knocked off when you opponent is at 0%; however as there damage damage up the pikmin stay latched for fewer and fewer hit. I will need to do more tests to see how many hits they stay latched for at different percents.
    • On Latching pikmin seem to hit for 8-10 hits (assuming the move is not suffering from diminishing returns) if they are not knocked off.
    • This damage chart is based on attacks that have not been weakened through diminishing returns.
    Red	Blue	Yellow	White	Purple	Olimar
    N-air							12
    F-air		15	13	12	5	14	
    D-air		16	14	12	8	14	
    U-air		24	22	16	9	22	
    B-air		13	13	12	5	13	
    
    F-tilt							6
    D-tilt							6-2
    U-tilt							11
    
    F-throw		6	13	7	6	7	
    D-throw		9	12	8	6	8	
    U-throw		9	12	11	6	11	
    B-throw		7	14	9	7	9	
    Throw hit	2	2	2	4	2	
    
    F-smash		15	15	13	9	18	
    F-smash H	12	11	9	6	13	
    F-smash C	21	21	18	12	25	
    F-smash CH	16	15	12	8	18	
    D-smash		13	12	11	6	15	
    D-smash H	10	9	8	4	12	
    D-smash C	18	16	11	8	21	
    D-smash CH	14	12	15	5	16	
    U-smash		15	15	14	9	16	
    U-smash H	12	11	10	5	13	
    U-smash C	21	21	19	12	22	
    U-smash CH	16	15	14	9	18	
    
    Jab 1							2-3
    Jab 2							10
    Latch		2/hit	2/hit	2/hit	6/hit	6
    U-special	7	6	6	6	8
    Running							11
    
    Table Key:
    • #-#: there are multiple parts to this attack and a person can easily hit with one or both parts depending on spacing or the size of the opponent.
    • #/hit: # per hit
    • H (e.g. F-smash H): For all of Olimar's smash attacks there seem to be to different types of hits which are based upon spacing. These hits do not seem to be chipping as there is a distance further still from the opponent where chipping occurs. The H denotes the second weaker type of hit.
    • C: Charged smash
    • CH: C and H
    4. Pikmin Durability table
    Red	Blue	Yellow	White	Purple
    Life (%)	9	14	9	4	15	
    
    
    Note: Pikmin seem to not take 1% damage attacks (we are calling this anomaly "1% armor"). However after receiving enough 1% damage attacks they will die but at a much higher total percent than what 2% or higher damage attacks total too. Myself and Projectiled are still are still working to find an explanation for this.

    5. Advanced Tech
    This section of the guide will be updated as Advance Tech is discovered.
    6. Recovering
    Recovery with Olimar is an issue a lot of players are concerned about and for good reason; with directional air-dodging gone Olimar?s only means of recovering after using his two jumps is a grapple, his U-B. The grapple length is based upon the number pikmin you currently have following you. The main problem is that if someone is edge-hogging Olimar?s grapple won?t hit the edge.
    What to do:
    Option 1:
    When Olimar uses his U-B he gets a slight boost similar to Yoshi's U-B. You can sometimes use that slight boost to get over the edge. Given how much air time characters have in Brawl and how difficult it can be to actually accomplish re-ordering and hitting someone with a purple pikmin, this is usually your best bet.

    Option 2:
    Well for one you are going to want to have as many pikmin as possible with you and your going to want to have at least one purple with you so when your getting to a high percent try to be mindful of this. When you are drifting back towards the stage you will need to use your D-B for a couple different reasons. One you want to call all your pikmin back to you and line them up, and two you need to get a purple one next in line and D-B changes the order or your pikmin. You need a purple one because the purple one is the only one that will knock an opponent of the edge if they are edge-hogging. So once you get a purple in position your goal is to hit the edge-hogger with your F-B and then U-B onto the now free edge. If you are close enough you may also be able to hit the edge-hogger off with an aerial (e.g. F-air)
    7. Strategies
    This section is difficult to write since depending on which character your playing against your strategy should change quite a bit. That being the case, these strategies are not going to work well against all characters. For more specific strategies I suggest checking out the Character Match-ups section; this section is meant to just give you some general ideas about how to utilize Olimar.
    • F-B -> grab: This can rack up some pretty good damage especially if you can latch a white pikmin. I think this goes without saying but do your best to keep them in some kind of combo to get the most out of this.
    • Whistle armor: This tactic could easily be one of Olimar's most useful and its relatively easy to time. Just D-B right as your getting hit and Olimar will suffer no knockback (he will still be damaged though). The thing that makes this move often better than air-dodging is that you recover faster than you would by air-dodging so you can punish your opponent more readily punish your opponent or get back to the edge. Another thing that makes this good is that when a person hits you there is a small slow down that happens when the move connects, making it even easier for you to get off whatever move you want. I generally only use this tactic in the air but it can be useful on the ground as well because of the hit stun. Try not to spam this too much though because people will watch for it and just wait for you to D-B, than punish you. The other thing to watch out for is that sometimes, since Olimar D-B does rearrange his pikmin, you may often try to attack and then be whiff because your pikmin haven't re-synced yet. All together this move can one of Olimar's greatest assets or most easily punishable misshapes so use it carefully.
    • U-B edgegaurd: There are a couple different ways of edgegaurding with this. The most obvious way is to just use the U-B as a ranged attack while Olimar is on the stage. The second more dangerous method is to drop below the stage and use your U-B as your opponent is about to grab the edge. If you time it right (before they grab the edge) Olimars U-B will knock the opponent out of the and then grab, sometimes stage spiking. Like I said this second option is risky and will take some serious practice but if you can pull it off it can not only be devastating but very surprising.

    8. Character Match-ups
    I am updating this section with an important caveat; that being: it is impossible to write about character match-ups until strategies and meta-game is discovered for other characters. None the less, here goes.

    The only way to know how to fight a character is to know how that character is played. Therefore this section of the guide will have two subsections for each character, Description (this section will describe the characters attributes and a basic description of strategies generally employed by that character.) and Counter (this section will describe what I believe to be the best strategy to use against this character).

    Note: The Description, Counter, and Difficulty of match section for each character will be a work in progress and I will update it as I learn more about other characters and as new strategies for other characters are discovered.

    Bowser
    :

    Captain Falcon:

    Diddy Kong:

    Donkey Kong:

    Falco:

    Fox:
    Description:

    Game & Watch:

    Ganondorf:
    • Description: Ganondorf is relatively slow has a bad recovery and is big. Ganondorfs main strength is that he is just that, strong. His F-B will grab oppponents out of their shield and he can do it in the air; he can also do it over the edge to kill you and him both. He no longer can use D-B to gain another jump though a Ganondorf player may still use it just to descend quicker. Ganondorf can turn at the start of his N-B.
    • Counter: This match is all about field control. You can toss pikmin with F-B to force Ganondorf to approach and then when he does, punish him. If he comes at you with an aerial simply shield it and grab then D-throw, U-smash, and U-air. If he comes at you with his F-B its best to just roll or point dodge (I realize there a lot of different terms thrown around for this move but I have always called it this) out of the way and then punish him; it's probably also best to use the same strategy when approached with his D-B (keep in mind though that he D-B goes pretty far so roll behind him not in front.) Ganondorf can now turn at the start of his N-B so be aware of this. All in all you should not lose this match unless the Ganondorf player is a lot better than you.
    • Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: 2

    Ice Climbers:

    Ike:

    Jigglypuff:

    King Dedede:

    Kirby:
    • Description:
    • Counter: So I had a difficult time writing this section since no one I play with plays Kirby so I had to write this based on my impression and making my friends try Kirby for as long as I could make them. I may update this afet I get some more play in vs. Kirby. Anyway here goes:

      Your best bet this match is to just out-range him as much as possible. As t!MmY said, Kirby has little options as far as approaching goes. Spam your F-B this match and make him approach then just punish him when he comes in. Kirby can get off tilt after some of his aerials before you can shield grab so a good Kirby player wont let you shield grab is he comes in from the right angle. Kirby is one of the characters that you can actually try and edge-guard if your feeling adventurous. You can easily spike him out of his U-B. Watch out for Kirby's D-B (rock) when your juggling him it comes out quicker than it has in previous games. Kirby, like most of the cast, will out-prioritize Olimar in the air so try not to trade hits with aerials. This is not to say that you shouldn't use aerials just that you need to mix it up. Watch out for Kirby's ducking cause you can often miss with an attack just because Kirby ducked. This match isn't that bad but Kirby can surprise you.
    • Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: 6


    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    Part 2:
    Link:

    Lucario:

    Lucas:

    Luigi:

    Mario:

    Marth:
    • Description: Marth has really good range, almost no lag on most of his moves (his aerials in particular), good damage, and can edge guard well. If Marth approaches with is F-air (possible other aerials as well I still need to test.) he will be able to F-smash (or any number of other things) before the opponent can grab, similar to fox?s aerials in melee and his shine. Marths F-air can cut right through Olimar F-B so most good Marths will simply knock away the pikmin with F-air and continue to approach. Marth can U-B out of shield to do great knock back. Marth?s D-B, if shielded will eat away at your shield and can often result in a shield break.
    • Counter: This match is extremely difficult, it is so far the hardest one I have come up against. You will not be able to F-B spam against a good marth since his F-air will just knock them away. Most Marth players will generally approach with aerials, the best thing to do is just shield and roll away. Often players will also approach with F-B. If you have enough shield you can try to shield grab if he finishes the combo, if not get out of the way. Really the only thing you can do against Marth is watch for what little lag he has and use said opportunity to get in what damage you can. Combos in this game are few and far between since all characters spend very little time tumbling, the trouble with Marth is that his moves come out so fast that combos against him don?t really exist (unless your opponent DI?s poorly), it also doesn?t help that his counter is better this time around. You are probably going to want to use option 1 to recovery. When the Marth player tries to edge guard keep in mind that you can air dodge multiple times. Air dodges and point dodges are crucial in this match, you?ll need to use them a lot but try not to be predictable. One thing that has helped me a lot in this match is Olimars N-air. It is a great move to use when Marth is in close. Lastly, Marth has little he can do when he is above you so use this time to get some damage in, just be aware of his counter. All in all this match can be done but you will need to go about it differently then when you play other characters.
    • Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: 8.5

    Meta Knight:

    Ness:

    Peach:

    Pikachu:

    Pikmin & Olimar:
    Description:
    Read the guide
    Counter:
    This match is probably the most annoying match I have ever played. I need to play this match a few more times but from what I can tell this match is nothing but a test of patience. The factor, who is willing to F-smash repeatedly for the longest. F-B if you get the chance but since your opponent can too you should really only use it every once in a while unless you just have a lot better aim than your opponent. Grabbing can be used in this match but only if your close because if your near the end of Olimars grab range the other Olimar can simply F-smash you out of your grab. So given that, if you get grabbed, F-smash immediately and you will usually get ouf ot the grab. As far as edge guarding Olimar, as I am sure you know, all you need to do is edge-hog. This match can be very frustrating because sometimes it feels like it has little to do with skill but there definitely is a specific method to use in this match so make sure you know it. Oh and N-air is a really good move to use if you are in close.
    Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: Annoying

    Pit:

    Pokemon Trainer:
    • Description:


    • Counter:
      Squirtle:
      Counter: Squirtle is in my opinion the hardest of the three. His speed makes it hard to out range him since he can get inside so quickly and his speed along with his size makes it near impossible to effectively F-B spam. Your grab is going to be very important in this match since it out ranges really anything that Squirtle can do on the ground. Squirtles D-air can go right through your U-air and U-smash (though sometimes it doesn't. I'll need to look into this.) so be aware of this. Squirtles is pretty light so if you can get a good smash in (D-smash will probably be your best bet) you can get some low percent kills on him. Squirtles U-tilt comes out very quickly and can combo well so be careful if your above him. If you are going to spam one move in particular vs. Squirtle let it be Olimars D-smash, it has good priority and sends the opponent at a close to horizontal angle. This match is pretty tough but if you pay attention you can win it. Keep in mind mind that your grab out ranges his, its important for this match.
      Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: 9

      Ivysaur:
      Counter: Ivysaur like Card said, is all about range, that being the case you have to go about playing Ivysaur a little differently then you would most other characters since you will be both be trying to out-range each other and depending on positioning one or the other will win out. Ivysaurs F-B can cut through pikmin but I still like to spam it if the situation allows. Ivysaur can be pretty slow so if you can get a combo going it will be hard for him to get out; he also has little he can do while above you since your U-air out ranges his D-air. Be careful when approaching Ivysaur since he has several attacks that severely out-range you F-air and B-air. Your grab will once again serve you well vs. Ivysaur but be careful Ivysaur has really good range (I know I keep harping this but its central to this match). Ivysaur, like Olimar, has a tether recovery so if you get on the edge while he is recovering you can edge hog him; however Ivysaur can knock you off with either aerials or his F-B, he wont always be able to knock you off but its something to remember. Ivysaurs N-B shoots seeds straight up in the air and if you try to come in from above you can easily get hit with it so you wont be able to approach that way, the best thing to do if you get above him is just to air dodge and get back into better positioning.
      Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: 7

      Charizard:
      Counter: Charizard is in my opinion the easiest of the three to deal with. You can easily combo him at low percents with F-throw -> U-smash -> U-air -> U-air, or any number of other combinations. Charizard is big, which means he is a great target for F-B spam; he can F-air to knock away pikmin but its not fast enough to keep away all of the thrown pikmin away. Charizard has some strong attacks so be careful not to get hit if you can help it since Olimar is light and he will, if hit with the right attack, fly far and be set up for easy edge-gaurding. Big characters in general are going to have problems vs. a well played Olimar and this match up is no exception.
      Difficulty of match, rated on a 10 point scale: 4

    R.O.B.:
    Description:

    Counter: This can be an extremely difficult match vs. a good Rob player. Rob has the ability to really keep the pressure on Olimar and Rob will almost almost out prioritize Olimar in the air. If Rob approaches with his F-air he can keep off a D-smash before you can shield grab so either usually best to just roll away. Rob has little he can do when he is above you so punish him with your U-air and keep him juggled. To make the U-air especially potent try to keep red pikmin for this because a well timed D-air from Rob can stop all other types. Rob has great range on the ground with he F-tilt and F-smash so out ranging him is possible but difficult. Rob's recovery is ridiculous and you should'nt try edge guarding him because if the player is good you will get punished every time. F-special spam is your friend this match and you will probably get most of your damage off it. Olimar's most reliable kill move this match is his U-smash and since Rob has such a good recovery you will have to get him to a much higher percent to kill with much else. Try to hit him with an U-smash or an U-air off a platform to pull out the low % kill. This match isn't a counter for Olimar but its certainly an even one and you wont be winning unless you keep your distance as often as possible.
    Difficulty of match rated on a 10 point scale: 8

    Samus:

    Sheik:

    Snake:

    Sonic:

    Toon Link:

    Wario:

    Wolf:

    Yoshi:

    Zelda:

    Zero Suit Samus:

    9. Stages
    I will update this sections once neutral and counterpick stages are decided upon.
    10. FAQ
    • After doing numerous tests with Projectiled we found that Olimar's grab will grab certain characters off the edge while they are clinging. Those characters are: Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Pikachu, Game&Watch, Luigi, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ice Climbers (if both are clinging it will pull off Popo), Ness, Olimar, Jigglypuff, and Lucas
    • I do not have the capabilities to test this down to the pixel but given the tests I was able to do, there does not seem to be any discernible difference between the range of smashes with yellow pikmin vs. the range with red, blue, or white pikmin.
    • All of Olimar's moves suffer from diminishing returns including his throw hit and F-B (latch). The effect on the F-B is that the pikmin one, do less damage and two, stay latched for a shorter number of hits.
    • I just tested this again and as I said in the guide: If someone is edgehogging you cannot grapple the edge your U-B only knocks them off (if it hits them).
    11. Misconceptions
    • The terrain effects the probability of picking different colored pikmin.
    • Now I don't wont to say that there is no difference what so ever but after picking hundreds of pikmin on different stages and tabulating the results, I found very little difference in the ratios of pikmin color. What little difference there was, I believe, is attributable to too small of a sample size. If there is any difference it is negligible.
    • OMG Charizard has fire and he?ll kill all your pikmin!
    • Yes Charizard has fire and yes only your red pikmin are immune to fire however Charizard can only attack your pikmin when they are not following you. If your pikmin are returning from attacking he can use a fire attack to kill them but if you are just standing there then he can only damage you.
    • You should try to keep your pikmin because flower pikmin are more effective (have better knockback, do more damage, live longer).
    • This is actually a very common misconception. Myself and Projectiled did a number of tests and never saw any difference at all between the different types (i.e. leaf, bud, flower) of pikmin.
    12. Gameplay Videos
    I will link videos in this section, some with my own gameplay and some with other players.


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn) 7


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Pokemon Trainer (Projectiled) 3


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Pokemon Trainer (Projectiled) 2


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn) 6


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Fox (Karn)


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn) 5


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Fox (Karn) 2


    If you are looking for videos to watch I recommend checking out the above videos first since the ones below where some of my first videos and the above show off better play quality.

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Diddy (Knorr)
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=OeRq30fnBpk

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Snake (Knorr)
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=HmM1pCYCv6A

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Luigi (Lozr)


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Marth (Lozr)
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=l47gyvqofpQ

    Olimar (NC-Echo) & Snake (Knorr) vs. Gannon (59JS) vs. Link (TLOZ)


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn) 2/15/08


    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn)2 2/15/08
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=FAL2O0p39lc

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn)3 2/15/08
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=kwSzO0M5DiA

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Robot (Karn)4 2/15/08
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=CxdFVlMFCbA

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Pokemon Trainer (Projectiled) 2/13/08
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=GNSCuhxlvKo

    Olimar (NC-Echo) vs. Meta Knight (Osiyo) 2/13/08

    13. Credits
    I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of the people listed below for their assistance in the completion of this guide. There is absolutely no way I could have gotten this all done without help and these people are a few of the key contributers.
    Projectiled:
    • Projectiled is one of my best friends and he has been a great help in writing this guide. He has helped on a number of different tests and he is one of my most consistent play partners
    • Assited in collecting data for section 4.
    • Assited in tests involving the difference between types (i.e. leaf, bud, flower) of pikmin.
    • Assited in tests involving which characters can be grabbed off the edge while clinging.
    Card:
    • Wrote the Description sections for the characters Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard
    t!MmY:
    • Wrote the Description section for the character Kirby.
    lord karn:
    • Wrote the Description section for the character Rob.


    Important Notice:
    • I will be updating this post with a more complete guide very soon. Thank you for your patience.
    • I am still working on the layout.

    Update Log
    • 2/12/08 8:30: updated the FAQ section of the guide.
    • 2/13/08 5:11: updated sections 1, 2, 5, 6
      added section 12
      improved layout
    • 2/14/08 7:36: updated section 2
    • 2/14/08 8:09: updated section 12
    • 2/14/08 3:09: updated sections 1, 2, 3, 12
    • 2/14/08 3:57: updated section 10
    • 2/14/08 7:39: added table of contents
    • 2/15/08 5:44: updated section 2, 10
    • 2/15/08 8:11: updated section 12
    • 2/15/08 4:38: added sections 4, 13
      updated sections 1, 11
    • 2/17/08 10:51: updated section 12
    • 2/18/08 5:21: updated section 12
    • 2/26/08 8:29: updated section 8
    • 2/26/08 11:31: updated section 8
    • 2/27/08 2:56: updated section 8
    • 3/01/08 1:23: updated sections 8, 13
    • 3/01/08 3:58: updated sections 1, 10, 11
      improved layout
    • 3/01/08 5:13: updated section 7
      improved layout
    • 3/02/08 11:05: updated sections 8, 13
    • 3/08/08 5:58: updated sections 7, 8, 12
    • 3/08/08 4:29: updated sections 8, 13
    • 3/14/08 7:24: updated sections 8, 12

    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Damn, so much info. Good stuff :tup:
  • Omega ViscantOmega Viscant TIMTravel>TimeTravel Joined: Posts: 4,069 mod
    I've been playing a lot more Olimar and getting a lot better. His shield grab is the stuff of legends. Hint: his throw distance is different depending on which color pikmin he grabs with. Purple has a wicked KOing up-throw, and blues have a crazy fast/far forward/back throw. Try and watch which color you grabbed with!

    Now it's someone else's turn to provide info!

    ...seriously.
    Want to know more about SRK Tiering? Check out the S.H.I.T. F.A.Q. - http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index7.html#post9897865
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    All right, I think it's time that we posted in some of Olimar's matchups. C/P'd from tier thread:
    Against Lucas: Olimar has a decent amount of counters against Lucas. PK Fire? Throw a Pikmin, especially a Red. Extended Grab? Olimar's is much longer and doesn't lag as badly on a whiff. PK Thunder edgeguard? Throw a Pikmin, again. Tether? Olimar with 6 Pikmin beats Lucas's tether. Also, Pikmin can't be PSI Magnet'd, which eliminates one of Lucas's primary forms of projectile defense, and the baseball bat has enough lag after hit to attach another Pikmin to him. Olimar's aerial game is also better than Lucas's (Uair, fair, and bair especially). 6-4 or 7-3 to Olimar I think.

    IC's 5-5 I'll agree with.

    Game and Watch: This is plain silly. Usmash on G&W kills at crazy low % (65% uncharged with a purple), Bucket can't catch Pikmin, and it's just too easy to rack up damage with Pik throws and grabs. 7-3, MAYBE 6-4.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Bad Matchups?

    Does Olimar really have any bad matchups? Cause I'm not finding any so far, but it may just be because of the level of competition in our area. His mind games can be pretty ridiculous compared to most other fighters.

    Chippy
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    MK and Wolf have Olimar as a free lunch. MK can spam all he likes, and Wolf pretty much beats all of Olimar's advantages. Also, Yoshi is pretty bad for Oli; his SideB out priorities just about everything Olimar has, and really the only advantage Olimar has over Yoshi is his grab game.
  • TheDarkPhoenixTheDarkPhoenix BEHOLD! Joined: Posts: 12,518 mod
    MK and Wolf have Olimar as a free lunch. MK can spam all he likes, and Wolf pretty much beats all of Olimar's advantages. Also, Yoshi is pretty bad for Oli; his SideB out priorities just about everything Olimar has, and really the only advantage Olimar has over Yoshi is his grab game.

    Yeah mk and wolf make are bad for olimar. toon link and diddy can be pretty bad too.
    "this game is about winning, If you had the option of a 1) Big dick or 2) a small dick, would you choose 2 because it took more skill? Thought not"
    -Bokkin
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    So, how does everyone think Olimar does against the top tier? Mostly, I'm confused about his matchup with Snake; I haven't played enough of them as Olimar to form an opinion.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Yeah mk and wolf make are bad for olimar. toon link and diddy can be pretty bad too.

    Metaknight - You have superior range against him, and your UpB ownz anything he's got in the air, ESPECIALLY if they are stupid enough to do any gliding BS. You have better range w/ your fSmash, so you can stay out of range. And you have an abusable blockThrow to slow down his aggressive efforts. If you can whistle to a purple blockThrow, you can toss the whites for free as he flies away almost at the perfect angle.
    I dunno, MK just has a hard time killing you, and you have much better knockoff than MK ever will. It's a patient match, sure, but you have answers to everything HE does, not vice versa.

    Wolf - Toss/Grab is working on a friend of mine. Toss the pikmin towards the end of your jump, as you land do a grab. He'll try to reflect the pikmin and get caught in your throw (with good timing your pikmin will still latch). I admit this matchup is harder than the others, but that trick's working a little bit the last time I played against Wolf... although I don't think it helped that half the time he didn't know I was actually grabbing him. =P

    What's so bad about Diddy? I'm asking this because there are no Diddy players around me and I haven't seen any "good" Diddy's, so I have no idea what the matchup problem is there.

    Chippy
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    he's great. one thing I like to do is throw all of the ones that aren't red or purple at the enemy. Meanwhile, the red and purple pikmin become flowers.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    he's great. one thing I like to do is throw all of the ones that aren't red or purple at the enemy. Meanwhile, the red and purple pikmin become flowers.

    Flowers don't do anything.

    I personally like "selective tossing" as well, although I like to store up blues and reds, mainly since blue is just always good and the BEST at throwing.

    Chippy
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    ? someone in this thread said flower pikmin do more damage
    Interesting quirk - The pikmin grow buds, and then flowers if they're out for a while without dying. Flower pikmin do more damage and knockback than bud pikmin. Buds do more than leaves.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • ZoogstinZoogstin Joined: Posts: 1,021
    While I haven't tested this myself one of the previous posts supposedly claims that the leaves, buds, and flowers don't do jack.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    I went and tested it myself just to make sure. they gain no extra benefit to my knowledge
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    anybody here having a hard time with any specific characters?

    right now it's just Peach and Kirby
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    I've always had problems with Wolf, although recently I've gotten to the point where I can play a Wolf close.

    MK is a tricky bugger, his attacks rape shields and make Olimars cry.

    Other than that, no, not really.
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