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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    well, surviving marths final smash is much harder than simply baiting it.

    if you're standing still during the animation, you can dodge/evade it on reaction.

    same goes for link, toon link, captain falcon, mk...

    if they are close to you, you can also roll through.

    this works with zelda's fs as well.

    also with zelda, if you are way too far, you do have a few frames to try and jump + dodge. its pretty hard to do consistantly. fear effect hits you off screen most of the time, and that's really what you want to avoid. its also why simple dodging does work... because if you dodge the fear effect, the real arrows just gonna get you anyways. jump + dodge is really your only chance of getting by both. and the farther away you are the more leeway you get. basically you want to be either really close or really far when zelda has her fs.

    with pk trainer, you can jump over it, roll through... if you're close enough you can just run through the pokemon on startup.

    with ganondorf, there is only two hits... one where the fox thing stomps (does fear) and then the actual charge. both can be dodged very easily.

    samus you just want to keep the pressure on until you see her start up her fs. then just roll through during the wind up. if you can't get close enough just jump as high as you can. at least then you'd limit the damage you'd take if your jump isn't all that good.

    with kirby you can straight up evade when he rings his plate... just dodge. or grab edge. edge is always the safest route, if its there, take it.

    that advice is also for peach as well. grab edge. just when she has it play the edges.

    for olimar, dodge in place. you can limit the amount of damage you take. i can get it as low as 15%, but maybe lower. you also get a free hit on olimar after. just make sure to avoid the rocket on the way up. it spikes, it pitfalls, it locks for the crash landing.

    and mario's fs... sucks. push off fs? well, getting hit by it is pretty hard as well... the tail end of the fireballs don't hit.
    ---
    recap:

    marth:
    medium/far - dodge (reaction)
    close - roll through

    link:
    medium/far - dodge (reaction)
    close - roll through

    young link:
    medium/far - dodge (reaction)
    close - roll through

    captain falcon:
    medium/far - dodge (reaction)
    close - roll through

    mk:
    medium/far - dodge (reaction)
    close - roll through

    zelda:
    medium/far - jump + air dodge (reaction)
    close - roll through

    pokemon trainer:
    medium/far - Jump
    close - roll through/walk through

    ganondorf:
    close/medium/far - dodge when the beast stomps, dodge when the beast charges

    samus:
    medium/far - jump
    close - roll through

    kirby:
    close/medium/far - dodge just before kirby rings the pot
    near edge - grab edge (complete avoid)

    peach:
    near edge - grab edge (may still take damage)

    olimar
    close/medium/far - dodge in place (limits damage taken)

    mario:
    close/medium/far - whatever you want. hell, get hit by it and only lose like 40%.
    O_o
  • residentwaterfowlresidentwaterfowl a.k.a Duck Joined: Posts: 106
    Since I'm here, I might as well compile a Pokemon list.

    I'm going off the list on the Dojo.
    http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/mball/mball10.html

    Piplup - Slides along the ground on a water wave. It pushes its victim along with it as it runs off stage. It will kill you unless you properly DI it.

    Munchlax - Eats any item that appears in its field of vision. Mainly an annoyance. Does no damage and can't be attacked.

    Bonsly - Doesn't do anything until it's thrown. Slows you down like CRAZY when you're carrying it. OHKOs anything it hits, even if it hits on a bounce. Is blockable.

    Weavile - Dashes back and forth repeatedly. Does very little damage but stuns anyone it comes in contact with as if hit by a Deku Nut. there might be a point where it does some knockback but 'm not sure.

    Torchic - Creates a vortex of fire that acts somewhat as a mini-Smart Bomb. The last hit has knockback. Can be DIed out of. The Pokemon will move a bit around the stage during its duration.

    Gulpin - Sits around doing nothing. It'll swallow the first opponent to go near it and deal some crazy damage before spitting it out for huge knockback. You can attack a swallowed enemy for additional damage.

    Metagross - Stamps his feet for huge damage and knockback. Anyone who touches it will be driven into the ground so it's a good place to camp.

    Gardevoir - Produces a force field that reflects all projectiles thrown at it. I believe it acts independently of the person who threw it.

    Meowth - Fires coins that do continuous damage in a fairly large area of effect. Will turn around to hit opponents behind it. Can be DIed out of.

    Electrode - Explodes after a short time for serious damage and knockback. You can pick it up and throw it. Sometimes it will fail to explode, but it WILL eventually explode.

    Goldeen - Does nothing...

    Staryu - It picks an opponent, then fires stars continuously as them. Can be DIed out of. You can avoid the initial fire by moving around a lot in midair.

    Snorlax - Jump up, expands in size, then comes crashing down on the stage. It does decent knockback and damage. Fairly easy to avoid.

    Chikorita - Fires a bunch of razor leaves in front. They have limited range and the Poke won't turn around like Meowth does. Easy to avoid.

    Togepi - Does five random moves that effect all surrounding opponents. I haven't seen enough of it to tell you which effects it has, though.

    Bellossom - Puts all nearby grounded opponents to sleep. It doesn't stay on screen for very long. Pretty much a free smash on your opponent if they get caught.

    Wobbuffet - Does nothing until it gets hit. Then it wil swing back and forth, damaging anything it touches. The strength of the attack used on it affects how much it wobbles and the amount of damage and knockback. Doesn't stay on screen for very long.

    Groundon - Stands around and throttles anyone it touches. Will occasionally turn around and whack people with its tail. There's a fairly amusing glitch involving Groudon that's VERY situational. Youtube it.

    Kyogre - Chases opponents and sprays them with powerful water blasts that'll push people off the stage. Hard to avoid. Also damages anything it touches directly.

    Moltres - Deals big damage and knockback to anything it touches while on screen.

    Entei - Sucks enemies in with a huge pillar of fire and deals continuous damage. From what I can tell you CAN'T DI out of this. Leaves you open for a aerial KO.

    Suicine - Fires a quick Aurora Beam that freezes anything it hits.

    Ho-oh - Like Entei but much larger and more powerful.

    Lugia - Fires a continuous Aeroblast from the background. VERY powerful.

    Latias/Latios - They fly together, forming X shaped flight paths and blowing opponents and items with wind blasts. They also do some good damage and knockback if they come in contact with anyone. Very hard to avoid.

    Deoxys - Fires a beam from the top of the screen a la Lucario's final smash except it only travels straight down. Does great damage and knockback but it's easy to avoid.

    Manaphy - Switches the character of two players. If you played DK and your opponent was Mario, you ended up playing as Mario and your opponents ended up being DK. Damage meters don't switch. This is not a tranformaion as much as it's a body swap. An interesting strategy would be to almost kill yourself as the effect wears off. When it does, your opponent will be in a bad position to recover.

    Mew/Celebi/Jirachi - They drop collectibles (CDs, trophies and stickers respectively). Once you have all the music in the game, Mew does nothing.
    STHDR: Blanka/Honda
    CvS2: C-Blanka/Dictator/Honda R2
    SSFIV: Blanka/Chun-Li
    GGXXAC: May
    I suck at fighting games :|
  • BrahmaBrahma Get it on Joined: Posts: 519
    Diddy Bananas (same as regular bananas)
    Damage - 5%
    Blockable - Yes
    Knockback Direction - Trip
    Catchable - Yes
    Notes- Thrown banana peel does 5% and causes the opponent to trip. A dash attack/Ftilt/Fsmash/DashUsmash is usually guaranteed. A banana lying on the ground will trip anyone except the thrower. Bananas can be picked up and rethrown. Only 2 banana peels for each Diddy are allowed onscreen at once.


    Diddy's peanuts
    Damage - 5% Uncharged. Up to ?% fully charged
    Blockable - Yes
    Knockback Direction - Slightly backwards
    Catchable - Yes
    Notes- Peanut will fly until it hits a character/object/ground. You can fire a peanut and then chase and catch it. Sometimes a peanut will break open to give you 2 nuts that can heal a few % each. (Not sure of conditions.)
    Ready, steady, deadly...
  • residentwaterfowlresidentwaterfowl a.k.a Duck Joined: Posts: 106
    Pretty sure the peanuts busting open and releasing food is completely random. It can also happen during his final smash but those peanuts can't be caught.
    STHDR: Blanka/Honda
    CvS2: C-Blanka/Dictator/Honda R2
    SSFIV: Blanka/Chun-Li
    GGXXAC: May
    I suck at fighting games :|
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    It would appear that dragoon pieces are easier to knock out of someone depending on how long they hold onto each piece.
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • LordLockeLordLocke #1 Toughest Joined: Posts: 115 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Wario's bite is special when used on explosives- Wario emits a brief explosive aura that deals 13% and does STRONG knockback when he eats any explosive- Link, Samus, and Snake beware!

    (I found this on accident gobbling a random Snake grenade at point-blank range)
    Meeh...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Is there away to escape the 'fan infinite' I can't get away from that after my opponent is hitting me with it.
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    :u: You can supposedly DI out of it. Last night, I kept mashing on shield and perfect shielding fan hits until I broke out. I was playing Sonic, and my opponent was Ness.
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Thanks man, I'll try that. I heard somewhere it has something to do with characters also maybe lightweights can break out of it, but I'll try that.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Breaking out of the fan is situational (character and position on stage)

    Option 1.) DI ***THROUGH AND BEHIND*** the fan user. Vs some character, this will free you every time. Worst best if you are not huge (boswer dk dedede)

    Option 2.) DI through and behind (not free yet) and use a very quick startup move, such as Wario's up+b or some other high priority dragon punch style attack. Experiment.

    Option 3.) Use your DI to physically push your opponent. Push them to an edge, and then DI under the edge and grab it.

    Characters like Link have amazing fan swing animations that cover their back very well, making escape harder. Characters like Rob and Wario do not, and escape is easy.

    Rule of thumb, is that if your opponent has the fan, they are going to run at you and attack. Use this knowledge intelligently and find ways to space/bait/punish attempts at fannery.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Awesome, thanks.
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Keits, can you try out that perfect shield thing that I brought up too? Basically, you keep doing it and you'll get a small gap after a while, where you can roll out.

    I would do it myself too, but:
    1. I already did, kind of.
    2. I don't play enough to be considered serious for testing things.
    3. It's your thread.

    I'm just "lucky" with all the weird random shit that can happen.
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Yeah Sep, Ill give it a try when my local competition is over next. What characters were involved, in case I cannot recreate the situation with whomever we play as?
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Sonic was the blocker, and Ness was the fan man. But, of course, it would probably be good to try other characters too.
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • residentwaterfowlresidentwaterfowl a.k.a Duck Joined: Posts: 106
    Do fans still rape shields like the did before? I rarely have them on when I use items and I mainly use them as a throwing item.
    STHDR: Blanka/Honda
    CvS2: C-Blanka/Dictator/Honda R2
    SSFIV: Blanka/Chun-Li
    GGXXAC: May
    I suck at fighting games :|
  • TiberiousTiberious Oh noes! Teh FURRY! Joined: Posts: 1,064
    Just a note for 'dorf's Final Smash...

    Opponents who are extremely close during the change will get buried in the ground. This, naturally, makes them unable to avoid the 'fear' or 'fly' portions of the FS.

    This is also why following up the Choke with this works, even on characters you normally can't hit afterwards.
    I write about games. Current post about the PS3's hacking.
    http://one-step-back.blogspot.com/
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    quick update:

    to avoid being put to sleep by peach, you can simply be airborne... just don't touch the floor and you can be completely free of being put to sleep.

    so when you see the start up, you can do your triple jump and if you remain airborne until the peach frame begins to go away, you'll be fine. but if you touch the ground any time the peach frame is fully on screen, you'll be put to sleep.

    obviously, float characters have a real good answer to her fs.

    damage will still be taken depending on how close you are to her (40% up close, 20% medium) but its better than giving away free kills.

    and obviously, the best usage of the fs is when people are coming down from thier jump. so if you are hunting a peach with an fs, keep your game to strictly ground or short hops. if she tries to bait you into jumping, it'd be better if you just simply didn't pursue, unless you can float.

    in other news, i dodged all kirby fs's today by spamming dodge. 5 straight.

    stilll having trouble with snake's, though edge grabbing and mixing up rolls and regrabs seems to be the way to go against it. look for the 6th round to fuck with them as to what you're going to do (jump, roll, even immediate ledge attack depending on your character). though, i seriously have 0 answer for snake when i'm in the air. even peach's reversal doesn't work, and that goes through pikachu's fs...

    this game... the more i know, the more confident i am whenever i see a "gamebreaking item."
    O_o
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    For Snake and the Links, you can also hold onto a grenade or bomb to wake yourself up from Peach's (or Luigi's) FS. Also, it is possible to spam-dodge Samus's FS.

    As for Snake's, you just have to be tricky and stuff.
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • WolfkillerWolfkiller Equal Opportunity Destroyer Joined: Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Tips on how to avoid the double rape from Landmasters please!
    Shin-Mech-Brian: As I walk through, I look up and see Chun-Li holding my son and she says, "arrest him!" Ronald McDonald pulls up from behind me and put me in handcuffs. I ask why I'm being arrested and he says, "I'm under arrest for killing Santa Clause."
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Tips on how to avoid the double rape from Landmasters please!

    This depends a LOT on the stage and your character. On stages like FD with a slow character, all you can really do is learn to live long enough that landmaster goes away before you drop off the respawn platform to avoid being 2 stocked.

    Who do you play as? What stages are you having issue on?
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Since Wolfkiller asked for advice on FS':

    Any tips on avoiding Pit's final smash? I've been getting hit by those locust things (whatever they are.) My friend said you can fight them off, but I doubt that.

    I'm assuming just run away like subt-L was explaining.
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Roll a lot.
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    They don't come all that fast. Generally with a mix of dodging, rolling etc I can avoid all but one or two hits, and I don't have much practice at it. Avoiding all of them doesn't seem too far fetched.
  • ScampScamp Making Miracles! Joined: Posts: 1,003
    Avoiding all of them isn't hard at all. The problem is that you also have to avoid Pit.
    I don't think this will ever change.
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    if it were just the angels during pits fs, it'd be one thing to just avoid and spot dodge like you do with the mother kids. but pit can move, and that you never have any sure fire way of avoiding. pit can pursue close to fuck your dodge/roll game, and can pressure with arrows.

    you can block the angels once, maybe twice if that helps. prefect block is also posssible.

    you really need to keep in mind the order of which they come out, and the angle they are coming at you... keeping moving is good until one appears in the direction you are going and combos you with a friend of his that is only going to lead to an eventual ko.

    its pretty rough, so don't think you're awful because you can't dodge it...

    here are possible recourses:
    1. you can dodge and roll and di effectively to dodge the angels... pit is another story.
    2. If an angel is waiting or attacking, he can be hit and made a non-factor. if possible attack the first one out. the first one is where the timing is tricky.
    3. keep moving as much as possible in one direction. if you get to an edge block and try to get it to roll you off the ledge so you can edge grab. roll in, jump or regrab.
    4. attack pit if you can. as bad as the angels are, pit makes them much more dangerous. just hit him once, see if he tries to fling arrows at you or pursue.
    5. if you are off the stage, fall. it may end up getting you killed occasionaly, but more times than not you'll dodge alot of stuff vertically more than you would horizontally. when you can jump and get the ledge. and hopefully everything will be done by then.

    there's 12 angels, each do 16 damage. try your best not to get bitchowned.
    O_o
  • WolfkillerWolfkiller Equal Opportunity Destroyer Joined: Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    This depends a LOT on the stage and your character. On stages like FD with a slow character, all you can really do is learn to live long enough that landmaster goes away before you drop off the respawn platform to avoid being 2 stocked.

    Who do you play as? What stages are you having issue on?

    Usually Link or Toon Link. Flat stages give the most problem, but damm...Landmaster seems to wreck wherever I'm at. I've ran off quickly to save myself from the second rising kill, but then I'm back on the ground where the LM can beat the shit out of me.

    I successfully dodged Kirby's FS last night once! Whoo hoo!
    Shin-Mech-Brian: As I walk through, I look up and see Chun-Li holding my son and she says, "arrest him!" Ronald McDonald pulls up from behind me and put me in handcuffs. I ask why I'm being arrested and he says, "I'm under arrest for killing Santa Clause."
  • Septimus PrimeSeptimus Prime Grammar Fhrer Joined: Posts: 5,722
    You can try to run off the side of the stage and hope the landmaster goes with you. :lol:
    Beef: It's what's for dinner.
    Beer: It's what's for right fucking now.

    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice... fuck you.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The dragoon does 42% damage. I learned this because I got hit by it tonight and didn't die because I hit a couple of walls. I don't remember what stage I was playing on, though. I think it was Shadow Moses. I was playing Snake, at 0%, and I got hit.

    Anyway, the dragoon, as it turns out, is not necessarily an instant-KO.

    Next, I "plan" to somehow survive Marth's FS one day, since I'm just that "lucky," I guess.

    EDIT: Oh, and I found something new with the fan, too.

    Apparently, in Mushroomy Kingdom, certain characters (like Zamus) can stand on the right side of a pipe and swing leftward, locking down their opponent on the left side of the pipe to be scrolled off the screen. It works from the opposite side too, but you'll die. I'd like to thank Shade for "helping" me discover this and the dragoon thing. :rofl:

    EDIT 2: If Snake gets hit in mid-air while holding a grenade, he'll drop the grenade straight down, assuming his opponent doesn't touch the grenade. This is the only way for him to air drop a grenade, and he can't air dodge if he has a grenade out in mid-air.

    Also, if Snake fires a Nikita missile in mid-air, he won't be able to drop it until he touches the ground. If you hit him, he loses control of it as usual. And, if the missile has a nearly vertical trajectory, it will come down later, after 15 sec or so.

    If Snake primes a grenade while holding an item, he will drop whatever item he's holding.

    btw to drop a nikita in midair all you have to do is press shield.... haha
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    if you cook the grenade on the ground and then shield to drop it and pick it back up.... you can drop the grenade in midair by pressing z.
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    Don't have the damage settings but I can give info on Jigglypuff's Final Smash. When activated, she grows to the top of the screen which will push away players and destroy/absorb items. When she reaches max size, she will yell, causing an all direction smash effect to anyone touching her, then she'll shrink back. The impotant notes are that since she expands until she reaches screen height, the move is more effective if she is at a lower altitude on a stage because she grows bigger). The smash effect is live until she has fully reduced in size so unwary players can kill themselves if they try to horizontally recover too soon. Finally, while it doesn't do actual damage, the smash effect can kill your partner even if team attack damage is off.
    9.9.99
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Hello!

    I'll elaborate on some details I've noticed for Jiggly's final smash;

    On small stages it is positively devastating. For example, she can fly underneath Final Destination/Battlefield, activate her final smash and it becomes incredibly difficult to dodge. It is possible to dodge (especially for characters with a lot of air control), but for certain characters like Ike it can be insanely difficult.

    The invincibility from clinging onto the ledge (when your flashing) prevents her from pushing you and also makes you immune to her smash effect when she 'pops'. So skillful use of vertical recovers and the ledge can feasibly lead you to dodge it even if she's right above you.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • COUMCOUM COUM Joined: Posts: 442
    Seeing as this thread was locked, I guess this is the place to discuss it...

    I'd be interested in how the observations Wobbles made change on different stages. Is the distribution of item spawn points roughly the same on all stages, or do some have a a higher concentration of spawn points in certain areas? That could affect stage controlling strategies pretty significantly.
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66
    I know that in Melee, items would always spawn at the same spots. It was most notable on Temple.

    Brawl might follow the same pattern.
  • WobblesWobbles I beat Ken once. Joined: Posts: 28
    I would totally test that out, Sample, if I hadn't given my copy of Brawl to my brother. From my other stuff it seemed that there were no set spawn points, at least on FD. Either that, or the number of spawn points were so high that there's no point learning them.

    More important is the spawn timer... for Medium, which is the EVO set, items spawn every 8-14 seconds. Two tests of 4 minute matches showed that they NEVER took longer than 14 seconds and NEVER came faster than 8 seconds apart. I'm guessing with a bit of practice you can get a feel for when items *should* drop.
    http://eskimosister.blogspot.com

    My blog about Melee, ICs, and competition in general.
  • COUMCOUM COUM Joined: Posts: 442
    someone in that smashboards thread thinks they've discovered that items are more likely to spawn at the spawn points close to the players, but i cant understand his research at all so i'll leave it to someone else to explain it
  • The DamnedThe Damned Looking sane, feeling sane. Joined: Posts: 10,550 mod
    Not that this is an interesting tidbit compared to the above, but since Final Smashes were being talked about before this and I'm liking to forget....

    During the online tournament, I found that Snake will apparently exit the bottom of the screen instead of the top of the screen to initiate his Final Smash if he is closer to the bottom. He'll still return from the top of the screen, though (thankfully).

    Outside of that, I'm sure there's something I was going to mention last time that I've now forgotten. Hmmm....
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,304
    Any tips on avoiding snake's final smash?

    Also have you guys noticed the smash ball sometimes avoids one player and heads towards another one? I wonder if when you're losing, a smashball has a tendency to move towards you more?
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • ZoogstinZoogstin Joined: Posts: 1,021
    Honestly I doubt that.
  • The DamnedThe Damned Looking sane, feeling sane. Joined: Posts: 10,550 mod
    Any tips on avoiding snake's final smash?

    I don't play again Snake (or at least, the few times I play against Snake, the items are never on), so I'd have to say from my own experience that the best way to avoid Snake's final smash is to be reactive.

    Just wait until he fires. Seriously.

    Even if you have a really fast character, you'll likely to get hit once if you run around like a manic and get hit once allows him to juggle you with at least one more hit, which may kill you depending on how high the ceiling of the stage is.

    Spot dodging doesn't work and rolling is almost as bad. Holding on to the ledge can only save you so much as well. So either try to stay in the air the entire time (which is impossible) or just wait for him to fire and then get the hell out of dodge.

    Easier said then done, but I'm sure the people that play with items on could figure out the best ways to react with their characters.

    For instance, if I was still playing Luigi (GODDAMN TRACTION ISSUES!!! but I digress), I'd probably just react via Tornado on the ground since that has the greatest land speed.

    Stuff like that.
    Also have you guys noticed the smash ball sometimes avoids one player and heads towards another one? I wonder if when you're losing, a smashball has a tendency to move towards you more?

    I really haven't noticed that, though it wouldn't surprise me.

    Smash Ball seems erratic as hell, but there has to be some method to its madness.


    Anyway, I think the other thing that I was thinking was to not throw Bumpers if it will hit another solid item like a Freeze or a Mr. Saturn, but that seems kind of obvious....
    "Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."
    - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

    "Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby into the city's reservoir, he turns to the cupboards, only to find the vodka bottle empty."
    - P. G. Wodehouse
  • SamuraiPanda001SamuraiPanda001 Joined: Posts: 175
    Smash Ball seems erratic as hell, but there has to be some method to its madness.

    We're doing some item research on SWF, and this is what I personally found:
    Finally, the smashball is unique in its "random" hovering, which I discovered isn't random at all. The SB will spawn on random sides (as far as I can tell), but nearly immediately after spawning will hover around the loser for a bit almost every time before moving away.

    I haven't really tested it further than that, so I'm not positive that is true. Just use 2 marios on either side of FD, with one of the marios losing, and observe the results. I had bananas, starman, and the smashball on during that initial test.

    Also, a user by the name of Xiivi found this:
    I know it's true between Human and CPU players. CPU opponents will always be able to knock things out of you very quickly with even 1/2 soft hits. However, you can juggle the CPU across the stage and back and they'll hold onto it for dear life. (The scenario I'm using assumes the Human and CPU players are tied.) I've seen people on gamefaqs continually complain about this. I've also had plenty of experience with this first hard.

    So if Sakurai implemented this between CPU and Human players, I don't anything preventing him from applying the same thing to winning vs. losing players. Especially since I've slowly begun to notice the trend as of late.
    Ok, I just ran a few tests about Dragoon pieces and how they fall out. I went to Final Destination with Player 1 and Player 2 as Mario. I set the only item to Dragoon pieces on high. I had player 2 suicide right away (thus P2 is losing by the game standards). I waited for the 3 Dragoon pieces to spawn. I had P1 pick up 2 of the Dragoon pieces. P2 went over to P1 and did 1 jab. Nothing. Then I performed a second jab (just the first jab again, not the jab combo). This knocked out a Dragoon piece. A third single jab knocked out another Dragoon piece. Then I had P2 (who is still losing by a stock at this point with 0% while P1 is at sub-10%) pick up 2 Dragoon pieces. I had P1 do single jabs on P2, however this yielded NOTHING. I did this to 30%. At which point I decided to try a forward smash, still nothing. Then I did another forward smash. Still nothing. Then I did some more jabs. Nothing. Then I performed an up smash, still nothing. Needless to say, I got P2 to 150%+ and was not able to knock out the dragoon pieces.

    I then repeated this experiment 2 more times. Neither time was P1 able to knock the dragoon pieces out of P2. However, P2 was always able to knock BOTH dragoon pieces out of P1 with single jabs. In one of the trials both dragoon pieces fell out with 1 jab.
    Oh don't worry. It isn't just the dragoon pieces, it's the smash balls as well. I just ran a few tests with them, and was essentially faced with nearly identical results. The most it took in any trial for the losing player to knock the smash ball out of the winning player was 20% from jabs. I was unable to knock the smash ball from the losing player as the winning player, even when using various smash attacks after building damage while they held the smash ball for dear life.

    Items are biased. At least in the case of these 2 in particular.
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,304
    Wow good shit Panda, I've noticed that about "equipped" smashballs, dragoon pieces, and holding items. I'll get hit with something light as hell and lose my item, but they just have to touch me and mine drops. I was always like DAMN YOU SAKURAI WHAT IS THIS RANDOMNESS? But I guess it's not random then.

    Also for the smashball hovering to a losing player, I kind of expected that. Can you test and see if it avoids the winning player more then the losing one? Like last night in a match I was trying to get one that was above me, I jumped up and it moved up a proportional amount. I repeated to jump and have it do the same thing many times, and eventually ran out of jumps and had to fall back down, and then it IMMEDIATELY moved down to ground level next to the losing player right in front of him and made no attempt to dodge his attack.

    That's kind of messed up.

    The Damned: How about in lag though? You can't really react in time to avoid the shots. >_<
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I doubt they have the exact same tendencies and idiosyncracies present in human vs CPU and human vs human play. But who knows?
  • SamuraiPanda001SamuraiPanda001 Joined: Posts: 175
    I doubt they have the exact same tendencies and idiosyncracies present in human vs CPU and human vs human play. But who knows?

    If you reread the post, he actually said it was human vs human that he ran the tests on.

    And sorry Samurai, I honestly don't really care to test the stuff any more. I'm pretty much done with this whole thing. And honestly, if we somehow find out that items spawn closer to the loser or something, then we'd probably be faced with the 'theorycraft' of "Well then, you have to just be on top of the losing player." Somehow pro-item users 'theorycraft' automatically negates all anti-item users 'theorycraft' so I've given up trying to win an argument that was already lost before it began.
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,304
    And sorry Samurai, I honestly don't really care to test the stuff any more. I'm pretty much done with this whole thing. And honestly, if we somehow find out that items spawn closer to the loser or something, then we'd probably be faced with the 'theorycraft' of "Well then, you have to just be on top of the losing player." Somehow pro-item users 'theorycraft' automatically negates all anti-item users 'theorycraft' so I've given up trying to win an argument that was already lost before it began.

    Yeah I noticed that too. I don't think there's any hope in those arguments, lol.
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    eh, this really isn't the thread for "guessing" so lets not go "theorycraft" on anyone.

    this is a knowledge database. its supposed to be about facts and tactics. not about someone testing something twice and proclaiming it truth. its not about arguing if items are shitty or not, its more if what you are saying is true.

    so, no items bashing in the items knowledge data base.

    it'd be like going on wikipedia and putting in stupid shit on the page of some actor you hate.
    O_o
  • SamuraiPanda001SamuraiPanda001 Joined: Posts: 175
    Xiivi is at it again. I'm surprised ya'll haven't jumped at the opportunity and started doing tests yourselves yet. But anyways, here's Xiivi's newest stuff:
    Well, due to a request earlier, I did a bunch of tests (you should thank me for these as they are incredibly time consuming, moreso than one would think) concerning dropping items. Well, it's not just smash balls and dragoon parts that drop out of you based on who's winning. It's any item that you can drop.

    Basically, take my tests from, before 2 Marios, Final Destination, and a single type of item. I put 1 Mario in the losing position and let them both grab the item (such as a ray gun). Then have the Marios jab each other until they drop their items. Losing players can make winning players drop their items before winning players can make losing players drop their items. However, it is not as blatantly obvious as with the smash balls and dragoon. It's actually based on the power of the item.

    Let me explain, the game thinks of Dragoon parts and Smashballs as really powerful and easily game-changing. Thus, it will make it very easy for a losing player to knock it out of a winning player and make it very hard for a winning player to knock it out of a losing player in hopes of evening things out.

    However, the game doesn't really think of Fans and Fireflowers as a big of deal in that concern. So the amount of damage needed to knock the item out of the other player seems pretty equal. That is, until you make the advantage one player has over the other huge. Then it becomes obvious, the losing player simply won't drop their item when they are losing by a huge margin (a margin that will never be reached using our rules).

    So it really doesn't matter, it won't effect things much since the most advantage we'll ever see is a 2 stock lead and that isn't enough for this to come into play for all items except Dragoon parts and Smash Balls.

    However, the bias is still there. Items have been intended to favour the losing player. Which is dumb, but it's really only a big problem for Dragoon Parts and Smash Balls, I don't see it having any effect concerning the remaining items you can drop (that is unless we want to convert to 99 stock).
    A side note: A little interesting fact is that you can group character specific items (such as Peach's turnips) into the Smash Ball and Dragoon Parts category concerning how easy it is for losing players to knock them out of winning players and vice versa.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Didn't we already know that?

    I knew it.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    The mere ***posibility*** of rubberbanding built into the 'randomness' was one of the key reasons to play 2 STOCK matches in 3 out of 5 sets.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • mashermasher Chun's booty itches Joined: Posts: 348
    Xiivi is at it again. I'm surprised ya'll haven't jumped at the opportunity and started doing tests yourselves yet. But anyways, here's Xiivi's newest stuff:

    Ok the dragoon is banned,shame you guys can't read and whats the problem with the smashballs hits while winner having it?

    Who isn't going to use their special within 3 sec after getting it? The only reason would be if you have the SB and your opponent is at 100%+ and you want to get rid of that stock without using your SB but thats taking a risk. So you just proved the game takes more skill with items on! Are you sure you're not pro-items?:razz:
    Oct 17 2007 mark yo calender
    SF4 is coming!!!

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  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Ok the dragoon is banned,shame you guys can't read and whats the problem with the smashballs hits while winner having it?

    Who isn't going to use their special within 3 sec after getting it? The only reason would be if you have the SB and your opponent is at 100%+ and you want to get rid of that stock without using your SB but thats taking a risk. So you just proved the game takes more skill with items on! Are you sure you're not pro-items?:razz:
    obviously you've never played anyone like Ciernian (sp?). If you're gonna use it in "3 secs" your opponent could just count "3 secs" and then do said avoidance tactic
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
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