"Official" 'Item Standard Play' Thread UPDATE 8/21

SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
Welcome to the official project thread for 'Item Standard play'!

[NOTE: This thread concerns offical rulesets and playstyle discussion for the creation of a unified approved item listing for item-based tournament play. This thread is NOT for:

*flaming
*discussion of whether items (in general) are tournament viable
*discussion concerning the 'randomness' of items
*trying to replace any form or facet of current, established tournament play
*etc.

All of the above will not be tolerated. If you are looking to discuss whether items should be allowed in tournaments, you have come to the wrong place.]

Mission Statement:

This mission of the 'Item Standard Play' project is :

A ) To experiment to find a unified list of items that are 'approved' for item-based tournament play, as well as 'approved' playstyles and rulesets for the creation of item-based tournaments. As in any tournament format, final discretion is always in the hands of the tournament organizer.

B ) To create a scene that can/will act as a stepping stone for the introduction of casual players into the traditional tournament scene without forcing them to 'abandon' all of the conventions of casual play.

C ) To create a scene that current tournament players can go to, if they so choose, that has an alternate style of plan than what they are used to.

D ) To create a unified place that tournament organizers can come to discuss, create, and advertise item-based tournament events.


Plans:

This thread's purpose is to give members of the ISP project a place to where they can discuss item-based tournament play, but first a standard for item-based play must be created. Thus, ISP's first goal is the creation and implementation of a standard for item-based tournaments.

In order to be as open-minded and thorough as possible, all items must be tested in a range of various circumstances (1v1, 2v2, and FFA; all of which Online and Offline). Prior knowledge from Melee must, for the sake of accuracy and true balance, must be discarded, especially in light of the inclusion of a new physics engine (Havok). To accomplish this, we ask that those who would like to contribute to the project post in this thread details pertaining to item experimentation; the results of numerous experiments will ultimately determine the final item list.

[NOTE: Simply stating that Item A is broken is not enough; sufficient testing must occur.]

We ask that your post include:

*Number of rounds (the more rounds played, the more accuracy; note that each round must be identical, i.e., the same players, the same items, the same stage, the same characters, etc.)
*Stage played on
*Rules of match (Time/amount, stock/amount, special rules, etc.)
*Characters played
*Number of wins for each player/character
*Number of kills for each player/character
*Any other information you deem important

Also, if possible, note the relative skill of all players; for instance, if P1 is much more skilled than P2 and P3, make note.
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Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    NEWS (As of 8/21/08 at 3:49 PM CST):

    Ladies and gentlemen? we have a standard. Thanks to the testing, balancing, research, and discussion of many, many people, we finally have a draft for a balanced and fair item listing, as well as a ruleset for use in tournaments. Speaking for everyone a part of the ?ISP? project, we can?t thank everyone enough for their help and support; this would have never happened if the community around SWF hadn?t put (at least some) of their support behind it. Special thanks go out to those who don?t even agree with competitive item play, but still discussed and debated with us to work towards a consensus.
    Here is the result of nearly two months of extensive testing, balancing, and discussion:

    [NOTE: We have since added a 'counterpick' list to our standard; the impressions thread has been updated with relevant information concerning this change.]

    ITEMS APPROVED THUS FAR:

    (Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Bunny Hood) (Beam Sword) (Lip?s Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

    COUNTERPICK ITEMS THUS FAR:

    (Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Dragoon) (Metal Box) (Home-Run Bat) (Hammer) (Ray Gun) (Cracker Launcher) (Gooey Bomb) (Hothead) (Spring) (Unira)

    BANNED ITEMS THUS FAR:

    (Smash Ball) (Containers) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Super Mushroom) (Poison Mushroom) (Starman) (Superspicy Curry) (Lightning) (Fan) (Golden Hammer) (Bob-Omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Bumper) (Soccer Ball)

    CHANGES FOR 2v2 PLAY:

    Item Spawn Rate ? Changed to ?Medium?
    (Team Healer) - Neutral
    (Smash Ball) ? Moved to Counterpick
    (Superspicy Curry) ? Moved to Counterpick
    (Cracker Launcher) ? Moved to Neutral


    BRACKET PROCEEDINGS:

    Double-Elimination

    Best of Three (3) Sets, with a Best of Five (5) Finals

    Matches Consisting of 3-Stock with an Eight (8) Minute Time Limit

    In the event of dispute, controller ports may be decided by Rock-Paper-Scissors

    No player may choose a stage they have already won on in that set unless agreed upon by both players.

    Ties will be broken by lives, followed by percentages; if percentages are tied, then a One (1) Stock Sudden Death match will be played (no time limit)

    Each player may declare One (1) stage and/or One (1) item to be stricken from the entirety of the set

    BRACKET CHANGES FOR 2v2:

    Controller ports will be determined in a 1221 fashion; whoever wins the RPS will choose first, then the opposing team will get their ports, and then the teammate of the RPS winner will get the last port.

    Team Attack will be set to ON

    Life Stealing will be allowed

    Each team may declare Two (2) stages and/or Two (2) items to be stricken from the entirety of the set.

    Color Blind rule: Should a player have a color-based disability, he or she may request in a teams match to have a specific color for their team. This is so characters such as Lucario or Sonic can be granted the blue team so that there is not unnecessary confusion.

    MISC. BRACKET RULES:

    Metaknight's Infinite Cape glitch is banned.

    If a game ends with Bowser doing his suicide klaw and it ends in sudden death, the sudden death will be ignored and that game will count as a win for Bowser.

    Any action that can prevent the game from continuing (i.e., freezing, disappearing characters, game reset, etc.) will result in a forfeit of that match for the player that initiated the action. You are responsible for knowing your own character, and must be wary about accidentally triggering one of these effects.

    Stalling is banned. Stalling is the act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

    Port slob picks: On a player's counterpick, that player may opt to redo the port selection process with that player or team picking their port first.

    The Mages DQ rule: After a match has been called, if a player is two minutes late he will receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, he will be given a loss for the first game of the set. After six minutes, he will be given a loss of the entire set.


    MATCH PROCEEDINGS:

    1st Match ?

    Double-blind character selection (may be waived with agreement of both players)
    Each player may declare stage/item strikes
    Opponents start the stage striking procedure
    High seed deactivates One (1) item
    Lower seed deactivates One (1) item
    Match begins on stage chosen during strike


    Subsequent Matches ?

    Loser switches the status of One (1) item
    Winner switches the status of One (1) item
    Loser switches the status of One (1) item
    Loser picks stage
    Winner picks character
    Loser picks character

    MATCH PROCEEDINGS FOR 2v2:

    1st Match ?

    Controller port selection
    Double-blind character selection (may be waived with agreement of all players)
    Each team may declare stage/item strikes
    Opponents start the stage striking procedure (1221 order as determined by RPS)
    Higher seeded team deactivates One (1) item
    Lower seeded team deactivates Two (2) items
    Higher seeded team deactivates One (1) item
    Match begins on stage chosen during strike


    Subsequent Matches ?

    Losing team switches the status of One (1) item
    Winning team switches the status of Two (2) items
    Losing team switches the status of One (1) item
    Losing team picks stage
    Winning team picks characters
    Losing team picks characters
    Match begins

    Taken from SBR Recommended Brawl Stage Lists:

    TOs must move stages from the starter/counterpick into either the starter or counterpick categories and must move stages from counterpick/banned into either the counterpick or banned categories.

    Stages in the Starter/Counter and Counter/Banned list did not receive 2/3 majority, and therefore you are given the option to put those stages in either category, as we did not come to a consensus on it.

    The SBR Recommended rule list uses the stage striking system. In this system, players take turns striking stages from the starter list until only one remains; these stages are not banned and can be counterpicked later in the set. There must be an odd number of starter stages.

    Starter
    Battlefield
    Final Destination
    Smashville
    Yoshi's Island

    Starter/Counter
    Castle Siege
    Delfino
    Halberd
    Lylat Cruise
    Pokmon Stadium 1

    Counter
    Brinstar
    Corneria
    Distant Planet
    Frigate Orpheon
    Green Hill Zone
    Jungle Japes
    Luigi's Mansion
    Norfair
    Pictochat
    Pirate Ship
    Pokmon Stadium 2
    Rainbow Cruise
    Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

    Counter/Banned
    Green Greens
    Mario Circuit
    Onett
    Port Town Aero Dive
    Skyworld

    Banned
    75m
    Big Blue
    Bridge of Eldin
    Flat Zone 2
    Hanenbow
    Hyrule Temple
    Mario Bros.
    Mushroomy Kingdom I
    Mushroomy Kingdom II
    New Pork City
    Rumble Falls
    Shadow Moses
    Spear Pillar
    The Summit
    Wario Ware

    Any rule-list that closely follows this guideline may include a note in its opening post (suggested beneath the tournaments title in smaller font) that reads "ISP Certified".


    If you would like to read the detailed impressions of all of the items, you may find them here. If you are a tournament organizer and you would like to hold a tournament using this standard, we ask that you keep records (of some kind) of the proceedings and post in this thread any helpful information you gather during the course of the tournament.


    TESTERS:

    Jack Kieser (Phaze): 3566-1264-7112
    Sephi_hatu (Sephi): 0087-1978-8381
    Metallic_Igloo: 3523-1714-9284
    nesdude: 2492-3777-7739
    Rich: 0860-3024-9262
    Trexxen (Trexn): 0774-3925-3469

    POSTS WITH TEST DATA / WRITE-UPS:

    Jack Kieser Item Test 1
    nesdude Test 1
    nesdude Tests 2 & 3
    Jack Kieser 2v2 Test 1
    Jack Kieser 1v1 Test 2
    Jack Kieser Human 1v1 Test #1
    'Item Standard Play' Online Tournament (4/19/08)
    'Item Standard Play' 5/24 1v1 Tournament

    VIDEO EXPERIMENTS:

    Bombs / Pokeballs:
    nesdude Test 1 (feat. Dragoon):
    nesdude Test 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=J1yRjgtnwv4
    nesdude Test 3 (feat. multiple Smash Balls): http://youtube.com/watch?v=k5WvDF6eXyI

    Past News
    *Good news for people who want to help test, but have no idea where to start! I finally got on my computer and made a template in Wordpad to help give people direction when they are testing. The template has slots for your input and places to put data pertaining to the test setup AND results! Unfortuantely, it's not post compatible (meaning you can't copy/paste the results into a post for SWF), but I'll work on that.

    The 1v1 version can be found here, while the 2v2 version can be found here. One note: make sure your margins are .5" all around, or else the formatting goes all the hell.
  • nasirnasir Whup dat ass. Joined: Posts: 511 mod
    I'm going to be let this go on for now, but will be keeping my eye very closely on this thread. Do not let it get out of hand.
    Thanks to Quiche for the whupass avatar
    Tatsu: i trapped myself today http://tinyurl.com/mnprjp
    Tatsu: i was like wtf. who is that girl in the bottom left?? and i was like oh fuck
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm going to be let this go on for now, but will be keeping my eye very closely on this thread. Do not let it get out of hand.
    Well, we certainly want to encourage intelligent and open discussion here. So far, we haven't had any problems on the two other forums we have branches in (SWF and Crush Siblings); people have actually been surprisingly civil and open-minded. Hopefully, people will heed the warnings I set out in the OP; I'd really like to bring the item discussion we've been having for well over a month now to the SRK forums, as I think the people here could add a lot of good input.
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,304
    So what was the reason Unira was banned from 1v1?

    I've always felt the homerun bat was ridiculously good as far as a throwing weapon. I might have to play some matches with just the HR bat on to see what you can do with it.
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    So what was the reason Unira was banned from 1v1?

    I've always felt the homerun bat was ridiculously good as far as a throwing weapon. I might have to play some matches with just the HR bat on to see what you can do with it.
    There should be a link in the OP to the full item impressions list. It's going to be evolving for a while, most likely (I'm not naive enough to think we know everything there is to know about Brawl/items right now), but the basic reasons that it was banned are layed out in that (rather lengthy, 13 page) post.
  • residentwaterfowlresidentwaterfowl a.k.a Duck Joined: Posts: 106
    I like the whole risk vs. reward system you used in determining what items should be legal. It makes a lot of sense. I actually read that whole post and found it to be an interesting read.

    As for the home run bat, it does seem a bit too good as a throwing weapon, but it is easy to dodge. If the Green Shell is legal, so should the bat

    EDIT: One thng I thought should be brought up in that post ut wasn't was the use of the Star Rod as a throwing weapon. It semi-spikes but is still dodgeable. Was tis considered in your testing? It probably was but it wasn't mentioned. Just wondering.
    STHDR: Blanka/Honda
    CvS2: C-Blanka/Dictator/Honda R2
    SSFIV: Blanka/Chun-Li
    GGXXAC: May
    I suck at fighting games :|
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I disagree with your stance on Smash Balls.

    Smash Balls are fundamentally different from the other items and I don't feel they should be judged the same way. Yes, they do have wildly different effects for each char. Yes, they can easily turn the match around. Yes, not all of them are equally viable. But the same statements go for all super moves in any fighting game that has super moves in it.

    I don't think that they should be turned off just because they're powerful. Even then, I don't think they are as powerful as they seem. Here is my reasoning:

    All Final Smashes have a de-facto cap of one stock, barring certain freak scenarios like Sonic or a Landmaster killing you right on spawn. Any other case, you can wait out the entire final smash using your spawn invincibility with no risk whatsoever. By contrast, a fan or baseball bat can take out anywhere from 1 stock to their entire cache if the opponent manages to hold on to them for that long.

    All of the Final Smashes can be dodged with varying degrees of ease. Super Sonic and Landmaster are the only ones still completely up in the air for me. But even then, Sonic has a hard time killing normally anyway and the Landmaster still takes some precision to kill with.

    They're not guarunteed to anyone. Some characters have an easier time getting to them than others, but absolutely nothing is a guaruntee with a Smash Ball.

    Misusing a Final Smash can often have very negative results. Being careless with certain Final Smashes (Landmaster, Zero Beam, Suit Regenerate, Barrel Rockets) can kill you, for example.

    I think that the balance is there and that they add far more depth to any match being there than is added by them not being there.

    I hope none of this came off badly. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, nor am I trying to start an argument about it. Just that this is how I feel about them.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    unira being banned? retarded. its an item you can hit to null it completely and return it to pick up mode. even on edge guarding, you can hit it and still recover. it doesn't do enough damage, doesn't k.o., and its not even decent as a throwing weapon.

    bumper being banned is also retarded. every keeps saying how broken it is because it k.o.s at such a low percentage, but its also fucking blockable. there's rarely ever a chance it can be setup PERFECTLY to keep people from stage recovering either... the ledge sweep spot is MUCH larger than the bumper, and you can use ledge inviniciblity to roll through, and even attack through the bumper... and you can still repeatedly ledge grab until it despawns if you don't want to commit any action. it sucks to get bounced by it after you've killed your second jump, but then you are really just talking about someone using the weapon well, and you not defending it properly.

    golden hammer is also a non-ban item. almost every character has a basic counter to it. if they don't have a reversal, falling attacks, spam attacks, and rapid air attacks eat through the hammer. not to mention that if you perfect block it, you STILL get a free throw on them, assuming you don't have a tether character... and since most tether characters can projectile spam... uhm.... that's another good way of hurting hammer users.

    as for the home run bat, imo, it is the best throwing item in the game... probably on of the best just in terms of how flexible it is outside of going for the home run (which should never hit). but where it excels is how well it bounces... one trick i enjoy is throwing the bat straight down wards as someone tries to rush me. i use it alot after killing someone and they try to get at me immediately. travel to the ledge throw the bat down and jump off... they try to attack and it either clashes with the bat or it hits them... then i come back in on the offensive without any approach needed. you can do similar things with throwing straight up, but really... the bat is solid... not broken, but solid.
    O_o
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    I'm curious about.. why the ban on golden hammer but hammer is fine
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    The truth is that only four items should be considered for banning. Heart/Tomato/Star/Curry. Everything else shouldn't even be a discussion anymore (in regard to item on play, anyway.)
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    The truth is that only four items should be considered for banning. Heart/Tomato/Star/Curry. Everything else shouldn't even be a discussion anymore (in regard to item on play, anyway.)
    .
    lol
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Even though I wouldn't participate in such tournies (feel free to ignore), I think the best way to determine which items should be on should be determined by 1. Do they have strategic value? If so, yes. Getting a star and using it requires no strat what so ever for the item user 2. Is the risk/reward values out of wack? 1 is obviously easier to do than 2 as 2 would have to be proven with results and stuff (well some of them don't need testing >_>). I would also suggest a third one that says that said item can't be random in itself IE pokeballs. This is not necessary, but no amount of "stage control" could be used to get a good pokemon or to get a bad one (plus very little strategy throw stuff but I think I read pokemon are banned already).

    The one item have to ask about is timer. I can't think of a good reason why it should be on. There is like a 50% chance that if anyone gets the timer, you get slowed down. The rewards for this are enormous for only having to pick the thing up (and it choosing you to not be slowed down). Some might say that people have to access whether to get the clock or not because of the risk or whatever. However, the timer only helps the losing player because one of two things happen with that a. the loser gets the advantage and takes off that stock b. he gets the disadvantage and loses like he would anyways. It is not realistic to keep your opponent from getting the item while not getting the item yourself unless you are willing to claim that what is basically a smash ball that doesn't need to be hit is easy to keep away from your opponent.

    I also have a problem with hot head but at least it doesn't support the loser and is not random like the freaken timer. It seems broken, but maybe not.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    risk/reward value depends on the situation though. Getting a star right after you KO someone sucks because your opponent can just sit the invicinbility out. Getting a star when you have 200 damage would give far better rewards.

    I don't think its possible to find some kind of medium risk/reward value for each item. It might be better to make a list of common occurances that happens in game and then give a point system based on that list. An item that would give good reward in most of the situations on the list would be considered for ban.

    All the items should be turned on imo if items are on in the first place. If items are on medium, one item can be a counter to another item. A star can be counter to curry; laser can be counter to a sword...etc.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    risk/reward value depends on the situation though. Getting a star right after you KO someone sucks because your opponent can just sit the invicinbility out. Getting a star when you have 200 damage would give far better rewards.

    I don't think its possible to find some kind of medium risk/reward value for each item. It might be better to make a list of common occurances that happens in game and then give a point system based on that list. An item that would give good reward in most of the situations on the list would be considered for ban.

    All the items should be turned on imo if items are on in the first place. If items are on medium, one item can be a counter to another item. A star can be counter to curry; laser can be counter to a sword...etc.
    That would only work if we were able to control item spawns; that is obviously not the case.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Fan [BANNED] - On the opposite side of the coin, the fan is a low-risk, high-reward nightmare. Not only does cut through shields like a hot knife through Kirby, but it also traps the opponent in a near-infinite of repeated jabs that is so difficult to DI out of, you might as well call it impossible. It is beyond easy to get someone over 200% with this item, and as such has been banned from play.

    I'm not sure your testing was totally complete or accurate. Thats why I'm finding it hard to accept the mandate of this type of committee.

    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm not sure your testing was totally complete or accurate. Thats why I'm finding it hard to accept the mandate of this type of committee.

    Well, first of all it's not a mandate. The purpose of the project was to create a starting point for experiments with item play. Real experimentation with items in Smash hadn't been done since 2003 or so, and it was a necessary first step into looking for alternate playstyles for Brawl. We have always said that this is simply a template to be used by tournament organizers and that they ALWAYS have the final call.

    The reason we (the many people who tested and debated for the project) took a more conservative stance on our decisions was expressly because we knew that if a TO wanted a more liberal (or even more conservative) list in his/her event, he/she could always just... change things. And naturally we aren't done yet; how long has Brawl been out? We know that there are things we are bound to miss and that with the evolution of Brawl's metagame things will undoubtedly change.

    So, yeah. TOTALLY not a mandate. Don't know why you thought it would be, but that certainly isn't the case. If it was, this would be a circuit or league, not a 'project'.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Understood.

    I'd again like to offer that the only things that make sense on your ban list are Heart/Tomato/Curry/Star, and I'll be working with all of it show reasons why. :)
    Assist Trophy/Pokeball [BANNED] - I wanted to keep these items separate in this assessment, but I just couldn't; they work the same, have the same faults, and affect the match in the same way. Assists and Pokeballs break all three of the criterion for a balanced item: there is no risk to using them (as all you have to do is pick them up and you gain their effects), the Assist/Pokemon summoned is invincible and in many cases can chase you down, and a single Assist/Pokemon can net even low % kills (especially in the case of the Legends and Isaac). No way can they be allowed in a 1v1 fight.

    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Understood.

    You should probably add this vid and your fan vid to your first post on the Item Knowledge Database for quick reference.

    Also, since you can attack Lakitu and knock him out, have there been any other Assist Trophies/Pokemon that you've seen that you can attack to remove them from play?
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    Unira [BANNED] - On the surface, the Unira seems like an average throwing item, but beneath the surface lies a lot of properties that give the user a stark advantage. The Unira is an item that 'sets' itself by ejecting spikes when thrown or hit by an attack (strike one, seeing as it can effect play on spawn without a player wanting to activate it), and is capable of (when thrown) killing a player at ~85-95%, a decent level indeed. When set, however, the Unira gains significant properties. After it has been set, the user is immune to damage by the Unira, meaning that he/she could conceivably stand on top of the Unira indefinitely without too much danger from retaliation outside of ranged or projectile attacks. A set Unira also possesses a 'vacuum effect', meaning that if a opposing player is simply standing near an Unira (but not close enough to take damage), the Unira will move the player into damage range itself. In addition to this, the Unira can be de-activated and thrown again, but only by the original user (although it can be deactivated by projectile attacks from opponents). All in all, the Unira is a very powerful item that gives the user a significant advantage with very few (if any) meaningful ways to counter its use. Due to these factors, we will deem the Unira too broken for tournament play, and thus it is banned.

    Incorrect. While difficult to do due to the vacuum effect, any opponent can deactivate the Unira with a punch. I'm capable of doing it with Jigglypuff who is known for her stubby limbs. For that reason, I argue in favor of removing the ban from Unira.
    9.9.99
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Keits, in response to your AT vid, even though all the assist trophies are avoidable using similar strategies, why would you want to turn the game into nothing but ledge stalling and keepaway for 30 seconds every time someone picks up an AT? That sounds boring, not to mention that under the risk/reward system the only risk with picking up an AT is picking it up right next to your opponent and getting punished for it, while the rewards can be a pretty significant % for no work on the user's part.

    Also, human opponents will be way better at predicting when you're going to spotdodge, airdodge, or roll and will punish you far more easily than a computer.

    Edit:

    And on the topic of the item ban list in general, including items like starman while banning items like the fan make it somewhat difficult to take this list seriously. The starman provides a significant reward for no risk and the best case scenario when it's activated is that the opponent can successfully stall the match long enough to avoid damage. This is not to mention that the starman is active upon spawn and activates as soon as it touches an opponent thus preventing any reasonable way of planning or reacting to its presence unless it happens to spawn equidistant from both players.

    I also fail to see the strategic implementation of the gooey bomb as all it requires either player to do is fight normally and dodge when the bomb is going to explode. I see this taking away more from matches than it adds. When that is considered alongside its ability to explode on impact I think it warrants removal.

    On a separate note, the test videos show matches of CPU vs CPU. This kind of testing, while seemingly empirical, has no bearing on what happens in matches vs humans. CPUs do not predict or learn, and they are completely unaware of tactics like ledge stalling.
  • residentwaterfowlresidentwaterfowl a.k.a Duck Joined: Posts: 106
    And on the topic of the item ban list in general, including items like starman while banning items like the fan make it somewhat difficult to take this list seriously.

    Starman is banned, dude.
    STHDR: Blanka/Honda
    CvS2: C-Blanka/Dictator/Honda R2
    SSFIV: Blanka/Chun-Li
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    snip

    This post makes me laugh.

    Absolutely no stage should be banned. Plain-and-simple, there's no reason to ban a single one. You can make the case for the "neutral" stage at the start, but there's absolutely no excuse for banning a stage. You can say "ewww, random" all day, but it's not random in favor of the guy who picked the level, and if you, for some reason, decide to bring somebody to Warioware, then it's on you. You know that there's a chance that your opponent is gonna turn big and get a star and whatever else. And to remove the scrolling levels or the levels where you can walk off, is equally moronic. I'm good at levels where you have to jump around a lot. I was good in Melee when it came to Pokefloats, Big Blue and Rainbow Cruise. Now, I'm good in Big Blue, Rainbow Cruise and 75m. And to say "ooooh, there's no competitive value in that stage!" is moronic.

    Really, banning stages pisses me off more than banning items. There is no randomness at all in any level. And if there is, you know it's there, and it's not going to skew in favor of the person who chooses it for the simple fact that they chose it.

    The "debate" over which items should be banned shouldn't even exist, as Keits said.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Keits, in response to your AT vid, even though all the assist trophies are avoidable using similar strategies, why would you want to turn the game into nothing but ledge stalling and keepaway for 30 seconds

    Stopped reading right here. Stop trolling.

    Not only can you bait and fight back during an assist, but most of them last less than 10. You are also vunerable to ranged punishement for picking up an AT from quite a few characters and other items.

    Lets not over simplify things. This is a game where people complain its too campy and there is not enough offense. ATs add huge ammounts of flavor to the game, and can really help get offense moving. On top of that, evading most of these only requires a little ledge stalling on FINAL DESTINATION. If you'd read the notes in the video, or even actually played with ATs on, you would know that.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I apologize for my hyperbole. I will avoid that method of presenting my point from now on.
    If you'd read the notes in the video, or even actually played with ATs on, you would know that.

    Actually the list of items I keep on for regular play includes pokeballs and ATs, I just don't think they add as much as you say they do. I wasn't trolling, I was adding my opinion.

    On the ledge stalling thing, I know that none of them require ledge stalling, but the fact is that ledge stalling is the best tactic to completely avoid most ATs and not get hit by your opponent. In tournaments, people do what's best to not get hit in order to avoid losing, that's why it would boil down to this and be very boring.

    Edit: sorry about the starman comment, I misread the OP
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I think the items-on people are not looking to supplement the core game with items. They think items should be part of the core game. So the argument that items just adds 10-15 seconds of stalling and ruins the core game don't hold water. It is just part of the core game. Whether its fun or not is subjective.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    The debate should be about specific items- the viability of items in tourneys in general is one of the things the OP didn't want to veer the topic into.

    For the sake of the topic not being locked, since I think the discussion of the viability of SPECIFIC items is necessary, I think we shouldn't tread down that path.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I didn't mean to tread down that path, I think that a lot of items are great and fun and strategic and deep, I just don't think that AT's fall into that category.
  • PozerWolfPozerWolf Gummies, yum! ;o Joined: Posts: 8,363
    Ah, well this is a very interesting topic.

    Also, gotta give props to Keits on those videos.
    Very interesting...
    All I do is draw naked birds all day.
    Twitter; PozerWolf
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You should probably add this vid and your fan vid to your first post on the Item Knowledge Database for quick reference.

    Also, since you can attack Lakitu and knock him out, have there been any other Assist Trophies/Pokemon that you've seen that you can attack to remove them from play?
    Yar, Keits' vids are great, but he shouldn't have to make one for every single item and why it is in no way broken, or even necessarily potent. I mean, we don't want him to dedicate his life to proving everything we already know. Smashboarders may as well demand other things must be proven before accepted, like proving that the sky is 1) Blue, 2) has clouds, 3) etc.

    Anyway, bat is overrated. It's a throwing item. And you can catch throwing items. The bat serves one critical purpose though. It's a guaranteed KO if somebody whiffs a final smash.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    sorry for not being on topic but

    Lamewadd, I'd like to get some games with u online some time. AIM me at Out aw shokker or send a PM. Whatever rules you want is fine with me :)

    learned alot from those vids too.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    sorry for not being on topic but

    Lamewadd, I'd like to get some games with u online some time. AIM me at Out aw shokker or send a PM. Whatever rules you want is fine with me :)

    learned alot from those vids too.

    Or you could get on the IRC.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    lol Lamewadd. Same stuff could be said about SRK like proof is needed to show that randomly spawning items add randomness to the game. <_< I think both communities are bull headed like any fighting game community (no arguements of Smash bros not being a fighting game please XD).

    Also, if you think all stages should have been on in Melee, you probably didn't play Melee competitively........or you were a Fox main.
  • PozerWolfPozerWolf Gummies, yum! ;o Joined: Posts: 8,363
    *snip*
    Please, no.
    Don't have that discussion here.
    All I do is draw naked birds all day.
    Twitter; PozerWolf
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    lol Lamewadd. Same stuff could be said about SRK like proof is needed to show that randomly spawning items add randomness to the game. <_< I think both communities are bull headed like any fighting game community (no arguements of Smash bros not being a fighting game please XD).

    Also, if you think all stages should have been on in Melee, you probably didn't play Melee competitively........or you were a Fox main.

    ::sigh::

    Smashboarders...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ok, guys, let's keep it on topic. No bickering will be allowed in here; we're already apparently toeing the line of getting the thread closed for just being an item play thread.

    Keep the talking restricted to items and item play, if you could.
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    That said, what is your response to my comment about the Unira.
    9.9.99
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Nes n00b, I agree that this is not the place for that kind of discussion.

    I also would like to know a little it more about the banning of Unira, I think it's a perfectly acceptable item.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    can someone please explain why golden hammer is banned and the regular hammer isn't?
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    can someone please explain why golden hammer is banned and the regular hammer isn't?

    That is a good question maybe it has something to do with the fact you can't ledge stall a golden hammer?
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    can someone please explain why golden hammer is banned and the regular hammer isn't?

    Reading the entry in the other thread, it's because of attack speed (some characters can actually run up and punch a normal hammer user), the golden hammer's floating ability (normal hammer can't do that), the above and back ranges that the golden hammer covers, and the abilty for the hammer head to fall off on the normal hammer.
    9.9.99
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    but with that being said, the golden hammer has about a 3 second startup before it can even be picked up. it is susceptible to the same offenses outside of grounded offenses where clashing with the hammer is a bad idea. it also has the chance of being the squeaky hammer, which is just as frequent as the head of the black hammer falling off. and the swing of the gold hammer seems to be identical to the black hammer in all my tests...

    all it is is a higher powered offensive hammer, but it doesn't make it bannable.

    edit: and from what i remember, only a few characters can hit edge grabbing opponents with either hammer. but if that's a big issue for you, keep in mind that if you ledge grab and ledge attack at a hammer user trying to use this, your invincibility will go right through the hammer, so not being able to ledge stall and hammer user should be moot. the hammer user has to play a very specific range to hurt someone ledge attacking, and that range is past the range of your ledge attack. which means if they are looking to punish you for ledge attacking, they arne't trying to hit you on the ledge.
    O_o
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    On the ledge stalling thing, I know that none of them require ledge stalling, but the fact is that ledge stalling is the best tactic to completely avoid most ATs and not get hit by your opponent. In tournaments, people do what's best to not get hit in order to avoid losing, that's why it would boil down to this and be very boring.

    Edit: sorry about the starman comment, I misread the OP

    This works on the assumption that the best method of attack is to not get hit...while in reality, the best course of action is to not get hit AND hit your opponent. If an assist trophy is out, the best course of action would be to dodge not get hit AND hit your opponent.

    Granted, it's easier and safer to dodge assist trophies by running to the edge...but all that means is that when a trophy is broken, a crappy player will run away and a good one will dodge everything and slap around the other guy.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    This works on the assumption that the best method of attack is to not get hit...while in reality, the best course of action is to not get hit AND hit your opponent. If an assist trophy is out, the best course of action would be to dodge not get hit AND hit your opponent.

    Granted, it's easier and safer to dodge assist trophies by running to the edge...but all that means is that when a trophy is broken, a crappy player will run away and a good one will dodge everything and slap around the other guy.

    I really doubt anyone would risk it in a tournament setting unless it was down to the last 20-30 seconds of the game. Dodging ATs and dodging your opponent's attacks would probably be a full time job in itself. No opponent will just let the AT do the job for them. I am not saying its impossible, but practically, probably not very viable.

    But anyways, I don't see anything wrong with getting that advantage. I got the AT, now you have to dodge it. Its pretty simple. Whether you like playing that way or not is just preference. If you decide to play in Evo, then you have to conform to that preference or don't play. Heck, I hate items, and I am still gonna play this way.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I really doubt anyone would risk it in a tournament setting unless it was down to the last 20-30 seconds of the game. Dodging ATs and dodging your opponent's attacks would probably be a full time job in itself. No opponent will just let the AT do the job for them. I am not saying its impossible, but practically, probably not very viable.

    But anyways, I don't see anything wrong with getting that advantage. I got the AT, now you have to dodge it. Its pretty simple. Whether you like playing that way or not is just preference. If you decide to play in Evo, then you have to conform to that preference or don't play. Heck, I hate items, and I am still gonna play this way.

    It's not like the assist trophies do anything unpredictable, original, or even difficult to avoid (in most cases). I don't see why you'd immediately run to the edge outside of just that; stalling. I'd take my chances staying on the field while most assist trophies are in play.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Reading the entry in the other thread, it's because of attack speed (some characters can actually run up and punch a normal hammer user), the golden hammer's floating ability (normal hammer can't do that), the above and back ranges that the golden hammer covers, and the abilty for the hammer head to fall off on the normal hammer.
    ty

    (filler)
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,719 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    What I find funny (and ironic a bit) is that every other forum you'd post this on, you'd be slammed for being too extreme.

    Here, you'll get slammed for being too conservative : P

    e$ports
    FC: 0018-4935-1331
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    So, yeah. With going out of town, work, and hosting the 5/24 tournament (plus the aftermath), I got really sidetracked when it came to updating this thread. ^_^' I finally finished the v2.0 of our item impressions write-up; I'd re-post it here, but it's like 13 pages (printed) of data, so I'll just link to it. Beware: the thread I'm linking to is a SWF thread, and I know you guys are all on bad terms right now. I apologize for that, but that's where the project started, and unless I really get the feeling that we'll get a lot of support or a lot of constructive input, I don't see myself needing to post something like that anywhere else for the time being; one massive-ass thread is good enough.

    You can find our detailed impressions here.

    Since I've gotten really off track, feel free to ask away, and I'll do my best to facilitate the discussion as I can.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Do you mind responding to my assertion about the Smash Ball then?

    My major problem with your impressions list is that you ban the Smash Ball on account of being powerful, wildly different based on the character using it and capable of turning the match around in one fell swoop

    I disagree with any of those qualities being a problem, as these sort of attacks have more or less has been a staple of the fighting genre since Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. And just because it's powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't necessarily make it broken.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Do you mind responding to my assertion about the Smash Ball then?

    My major problem with your impressions list is that you ban the Smash Ball on account of being powerful, wildly different based on the character using it and capable of turning the match around in one fell swoop

    I disagree with any of those qualities being a problem, as these sort of attacks have more or less has been a staple of the fighting genre since Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. And just because it's powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't necessarily make it broken.
    QFT.

    And the vulnerability on whiff is brutal.
  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,719 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Heres the major problems I see:

    Cracker Launcher [BANNED] - Easily the most brutishly powerful of the projectile items, the Cracker Launcher only has one real strategy: land a shot and continue to try to juggle the opponent ...

    My comments: The cracker launcher is very easy to dodge, and picking it up basically tells your opponent "Hey, rush in on me and hit me for free." There is no reason to ban this item at all.

    Smart Bomb [BANNED] - An item built off of the concept of chaos...

    My Comments: A good player can get out of the blast radius easily. You should never, EVER be ko'd with this thing (might be based on character size). The very worst is you take a small amount of damage and then DI away. Shouldn't be banned at all.

    Unira [BANNED] - On the surface, the Unira seems like an average throwing item...

    My comments: One of the most mundane items in the game. Seriously. Banning this just seems silly, I have NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER seen a unira single handedly unbalance a match. Ever,

    Golden Hammer [BANNED] - Taking the concept of risk/reward and stretching it as thin as it can, these two items wildly fluctuate between 'balanced' and 'broken' depending on who you talk to...

    My comments: Everyone with a non tether throw can perfect shield throw a golden hammer user. Golden hammer is very powerful, but there are definite counters in place for it. As such, banning this (while leaving regular hammer) is not a good idea. Besides, it spawns so slow, the smashball effect of fighting over the spawn comes into play here.

    Smash Ball [BANNED] ...

    My comments: Banning a smash ball because it doesn't provide equally useful moves to all characters is silly. This is not a symmetrical game, and as such, factors such a "final smash" effectiveness comes into play at the character select screen, as well as the stage selection screen. On top of this, fighting over the smash ball brings another level of gameplay to the fight. Definitely shouldn't be banned.

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