"Official" 'Item Standard Play' Thread UPDATE 8/21

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Golden Hammer [BANNED] - Taking the concept of risk/reward and stretching it as thin as it can, these two items wildly fluctuate between 'balanced' and 'broken' depending on who you talk to...

    My comments: Everyone with a non tether throw can perfect shield throw a golden hammer user. Golden hammer is very powerful, but there are definite counters in place for it. As such, banning this (while leaving regular hammer) is not a good idea. Besides, it spawns so slow, the smashball effect of fighting over the spawn comes into play here.

    Also, you can't forget the...what is it? One in eight shot that you're going to die by picking it up? I played some matches yesterday and I was on my last life and wouldn't pick up the gold hammer for that exact reason.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Before I respond to each individual point, let me say this: the majority of the complaints (valid though they may be) I've read so far have been on a singular point of contention for any given item (you'll see what I'm talking about in a second). Remember that those of us in the project who made this impressions list have three (3) criterion for balance. Yes, some of the comments I will respond to are very valid and true... but most only deal with one of the three criterion, and some of those criterion (like Risk v. Reward) have sub-criterion that have to be taken into consideration, too!

    Now, Pimp Willy, I'll start with you (because your post is within reach of the 'quick reply' box ^_^):

    Cracker Launcher: Yes, we took into account the fact that aiming with the C. Launcher is a royal pain in the ass, and that if you miss, you'll probably be punished for it, but there are other flaws that unbalance it more than you think. First of all, it's power as a throwing item proportional to the difficulty in dodging it. If you miss a shot, why not just ditch the thing (if you know you'll be punished)? You can pick it back up, plus the approaching opponent now has to deal with a slow-moving and rather large projectile being thrown. Believe it or not, it is harder to dodge the C. Launcher than any other projectile item because of the combination of its slow speed AND its large size, which means that it may still be intersecting your character even when your dodge animation is over with. Second, the shots don't effect the user AT ALL. What's stopping someone from simply firing at their feet when they pick up the Launcher? The blast radius of C. Launcher shots are roughly the size of most medium-build characters (like Mario), which means a constant stream (or even just a well-timed stream) of shots aimed at the feet can nullify any approach attempt with little to no skill involved, so if you miss a shot, jump back, aim down, and you'll most likely be ok (if you aren't Dedede).

    Smart Bomb: First of all, the Smart Bomb isn't designed to KO, and we say as much in the impressions; the % necessary for the Smart Bomb to KO is really, really high. That's not the issue. The issues with the Smart Bomb stem more from the damage it does (spoiler: a lot) and from its effect-on-spawn properties. Smash DI does work in negating the majority of the knockback and a portion of the damage caused by the bomb, but you'll still be hurting a LOT if you get caught anywhere near this thing. It can also detonate upon spawn, which usually isn't that big of a deal (see: Gooey Bomb; it has the highest KO% and lowest damage % of all the bomb-type items), but those two properties working in concert can seriously sway the tide of battle, which defeats the purpose of... well, competitive Smash as it stands now.

    Unira: This is actually the one item I kind of agree with you on. Personally, I don't see anything too broken about it. The only real problem is that it is just crazy powerful when thrown (we're talking low % KOs here), but you can always just air/spot dodge it. Of course, the vacuum effect really messes with things, but its range isn't good at all, and the item itself even accounts for this (you can only get harmed by a ground-based Unira once every second or so, I forget the exact amount).

    Golden Hammer: I'm sorry, but this item is straight-up broken. Sure, you can powershield to a grab with most characters, but the smart GH user will never give you that chance. The range is enough so that if you just barely glance the opponent, even if he powershields he won't be in range to grab, in which case you're screwed. Add to that the fact that ledgestalling (the Hammer's biggest weakness) doesn't work due to the hover feature and the sheer ridiculous power behind each swing, and you have a frankly really broken item. Oh, and 1-in-8 (assuming that's right) is not a high enough chance to balance out that power. 1-in-5 or 1-in-3, maybe we'll talk. But 1-in-8 is too low a chance for backfiring for an item with that much KO potential.

    Smash Ball: *sigh* The biggest point of contention, believe it or not. Maybe there are a few bigger fights over the Dragoon, but Smash Balls are usually always a hot-button topic. Look, I like Smash Balls. I main Link, and his FS is great. They are fun, new, and exciting. But they just aren't implemented well. Balance aside (which ultimately isn't as important because, as you say, having a good FS factors into character balance the same way having good Smash attacks does, that is to say its just another move to be used), they just aren't conductive to the current competitive metagame. The battle for the Smash Ball can be entirely one sided and favors faster characters over slower ones (and no, slower, more powerful characters don't have moves aside from Smash attacks and things like the Warlock Punch that can reliably break the ball in one hit), characters that already have better FS's anyway. The amount of damage it takes to break the Smash Ball fluctuates randomly between spawns. You gain instant invincibility upon activating your Final Smash which lasts the duration of the move. You can't be knocked out of a FS, unlike supers in most other fighting games. Very few Final smashes can be punished upon whiffing in the manner you describe (moves like the Zero Laser, Mario Finale... well, honestly, not many because the invincibility usually lasts until you regain control of your character, meaning most whiffed FS's can't be reliably punished in any meaningful way). I would have LOVED to have Smash Balls in 1v1... but there's just no way I can ignore ALL the glaring flaws in their design in favor of adding one super-powered move to each character's arsenal. Now, 2v2? Different story. I might, possibly, MAYBE be able to work Smash Balls into 2v2 play. Maybe. But don't hold your breath.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Anyone who thinks that fast characters really have the advantage in popping the smash ball first either did not give them enough testing/time, and/or never really got good at the strategy around smash ball control. It simply does not work that way.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Anyone who thinks that fast characters really have the advantage in popping the smash ball first either did not give them enough testing/time, and/or never really got good at the strategy around smash ball control. It simply does not work that way.
    Even if that is the case (and I'm not sure I personally agree), the rest of the glaring flaws more than make a valid case for their exclusion from 1v1 fights. Like I said, 2v2 with Team Attack on? Maybe we have something going there. But the implementation is just too... not conductive to everything we know about competitive play so far (plus they break balance criterion left and right, which is WAY more important to the project).
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Golden Hammer: I'm sorry, but this item is straight-up broken. Sure, you can powershield to a grab with most characters, but the smart GH user will never give you that chance. The range is enough so that if you just barely glance the opponent, even if he powershields he won't be in range to grab, in which case you're screwed. Add to that the fact that ledgestalling (the Hammer's biggest weakness) doesn't work due to the hover feature and the sheer ridiculous power behind each swing, and you have a frankly really broken item. Oh, and 1-in-8 (assuming that's right) is not a high enough chance to balance out that power. 1-in-5 or 1-in-3, maybe we'll talk. But 1-in-8 is too low a chance for backfiring for an item with that much KO potential.
    please read my last post.

    what you are talking about is a very onesided mind game, and the golden hammer is not.

    its large start up for pick up makes sure you know its there.

    you can attack through the hammer with the right air moves. some straight through, some trading to get through.

    counters also own the hammer no matter what. you can projectile spam against it. right there gives many of the characters in the game offense against it.

    and how is the hover feautre "broken"? its really good, but it is something you can simply shield and roll away from on reaction. hovering doesn't kill edge stalling, as you can roll through and clean escape someone hovering or you can ledge attack through the hammer when they get too close.

    and in all these situations we're talking about where you can't counter properly is a range where the hammer player isn't really attacking you... more like playing ranges. fine. i don't see what the problem is.

    you have a powerful item on the field. you have a very likely chance that it will be a rubber hammer. if you don't get it, you have time to prepare a counter. if you do get it, you have to range it right to be completely effective. and even if you do, your opponent can still defend it, block it and play mind games, and they still have to be at a considerable % (60-80%ish depending) to get k.o.ed. and if they do implement a proper defensive scheme and hit you, you're looking at taking a shit load of damage.

    i don't see what the problem is outside of cats not knowing how to really beat a hammer user straight out.
    O_o
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The main problem is, again, risk/reward. The Golden Hammer is incredibly powerful, and scoring a low % kill because of a single mistake is a big problem as far as R/R is concerned. Remember as well that one of our criterion for item balance was universal counters to item strategies, so we can't simply say that certain characters can projectile spam or certain characters can counter because those aren't universal strategic counters; sure, that fact figures into the equation, but much less than, for instance, powershield->shield grab does. Add to that the fact that we ALSO have a much less broken Hammer that works just as well (if not better) at enriching item play and there really isn't that much of a reason to spend more time and energy justifying including the GH.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    But its not a problem in any other game. Why is smash SOOO special that using something powerful or getting a low percentage kill needs to be removed? I could lose 1 of my characters in 1 hit in any given game of MvC2. I could make one mistake in ST and lose 60-70%, often leading to a dizzy and ending the round.

    In order to truly make smash a competitive game, we **need** to stop coddling players who are afraid of making "one mistake" leading to a "ko". High level players know they need to avoid making mistakes. Thats how you win tournaments.
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  • KMDKMD Lurkers Anonymous Joined: Posts: 699
    Keits, you always have the tools to do those things in other fighters. In Smash, you have a random chance of getting those tools. That's the thing, Smash players don't have a problem with low-percentage kills if it's something that comes from something the character always has. What causes a problem is that someone could get the Smash equivalent of "lol ROM Infinite" by being in the right place at the right time.

    This has been discussed at length man, nobody's coddling anybody. Quit with the generalizations.
    I'm here to have Eddie turn his upper body into a giant cow skull and make stupid cackling noises while sodomizing people with gigantic black drills. In HELL. Now THAT'S villainy.
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  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    that's if you buy the argument that it's a random chance. the chance of getting an item is less "random" than you think, especially with a golden hammer. You can't even pick up a golden hammer until the animation finishes

    note: I'm not arguing for or against golden hammer.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    but golden hammer does have risk around it.

    anyone with a falling air attack (bowser butt stomp, kirby down+b, g&w downair) go through clean. rapid air attack (peach downair) will go through clean. sex kicks can go through it when applied properly.

    and then there's ledge stalling and ledge attacking which is ultimately universal.

    which characters are you afraid can't deal with the golden hammer? tell me, and i'll do my damnedest to find a counter to it.
    O_o
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Keits, you always have the tools to do those things in other fighters. In Smash, you have a random chance of getting those tools. That's the thing, Smash players don't have a problem with low-percentage kills if it's something that comes from something the character always has. What causes a problem is that someone could get the Smash equivalent of "lol ROM Infinite" by being in the right place at the right time.

    This has been discussed at length man, nobody's coddling anybody. Quit with the generalizations.

    They are coddling. How you obtain the means to do something powerful is irrelevant. Trying to use this as a case-in-point only shows how desperate this group is to turn Smash into something it is not (a traditional fighter). Why are there so few of us trying to embrace the game for what it is?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm going to have to agree with KMD on this one. Competitive gaming has always been about the better player winning, and even a remedial knowledge of competitive gaming history shows this. Adding random chance already messes with the premise enough, and getting anyone who has played competitive Melee in the last 5 years to play with any random chance variables activated is a challenge in and of itself. (As an aside, I can see how random chance can actually enhance the search for the better player, but that's just me). It's not a question of '[embracing] the game for what it is', its a question of 'how does the Smash design fit into competitive gaming', and the fact of the matter is that, unlike almost any other fighter I know of, Smash has a LOT of excess variables that must be taken into account during competition. No other fighter has to go through as many hoops to be competitively viable (at least competitively viable as far as competitive gaming as defined by history is concerned) as Smash does, which is why we don't allow 'broken' (as determined by our project's balance criterion) items. The item list we have is almost 50/50 in terms of bans/allows, so it's not like we're totally gimping the game. We're just trimming away the excess, trying to find what works and what doesn't as far as competitive gaming is concerned.

    Don't forget, there are precedents that must be respected; if you want to break those precedents, feel free to try, but there will be a TON of resistance (which is why this project is attempting to find the middle ground).
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    k. Can anyone PROVE that which player gets the item is random? No fucking theory fighter or a show of your half-assed "logic", but VISUAL PROOF? Just about everytime I've played with items on, the other player had to ask for my fucking permission before they could get to an item.
    see ya buddy

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    k. Can anyone PROVE that which player gets the item is random? No fucking theory fighter or a show of your half-assed "logic", but VISUAL PROOF? Just about everytime I've played with items on, the other player had to ask for my fucking permission before they could get to an item.

    Umm... what? No one ever said that items spawned in a players hands or anything. Items spawn randomly, meaning that the time, item spawned, and spawn point chosen by the game engine is random. Players don't receive items randomly, they receive item drops randomly. Yes, if you don't allow the opponent to pick up the item, well done, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't there before and now it is thanks to a completely random and unpredictable algorithm.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Jack - Wrong. Competitive gaming is about who can win at the game being played. We are not adding random chance to the game. People are trying to remove as much of it as possible. You are simply not playing the same game anymore when you do this, and while it is "people being competitive over items of brawl", it is not seeing who the best brawl players potentially are.

    choosing to remove something becuase you cannot master the skills needed to deal with it is not competitive. Competitors do not sidestep the problem, they fight it.

    And again, good job showing how little you actually tested the items. They do spawn on a regular timed interval. Every 10-14 seconds on medium. Its very easy to get a rhythm going of when the next one will be spawning.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    10-14 seconds is still random. It's just random within a 4 second interval. If it was every 14 seconds without fail, you would be right. The fact remains that it is impossible to accurately and reliably predict item spawns, which is what the whole debate is about right now. Random chance, AGAIN, has its place, but competitive Smash (which happens to be the game we're playing, btw) has, for the majority of its lifespan, been about reducing random variables as much as possible. I don't agree with that, and neither does anyone who has applied themselves to this project, so we try to reduce random chance to a manageable level without eliminating it entirely.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Umm... what? No one ever said that items spawned in a players hands or anything. Items spawn randomly, meaning that the time, item spawned, and spawn point chosen by the game engine is random. Players don't receive items randomly, they receive item drops randomly. Yes, if you don't allow the opponent to pick up the item, well done, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't there before and now it is thanks to a completely random and unpredictable algorithm.
    I don't see anything wrong with this. items are powerful, either player has access to them. the player that picks up the item (which means that the player couldn't be stopped from grabbing the item, the opponent lost the battle for the item, or opponent lets them grab it) gains access to the item. Even if the item is picked up, you can still defend yourself

    the first route to go with dealing with randomness is what can YOU, the player, do about it. if the randomness is too powerful an aspect (ex. the entire game revolves around that ONE aspect), THEN it needs to be dealt with.
    see ya buddy

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You see, you just explained yourself why bans and intelligent item lists have to be made. "if the randomness is too powerful an aspect (ex. the entire game revolves around that ONE aspect), THEN it needs to be dealt with." If you don't have a fair, balanced, and intelligent item list, people will simply farm items, compounding the already problematic campy nature of Brawl's current metagame. Part of the allure to many people who used to be completely against item play is that, if done correctly, items can stifle campy gameplay without becoming the most dominant aspect of a fight. The fact remains that Brawl (and Smash) is a party game first. We have to craft it into a competitively viable (and fair) fighter, regardless of what 'purist' mentalities we may hold. It's a nice thought that we can play Brawl in a very unaltered state and not have competition degenerate, but as of RIGHT NOW, that isn't the case. We have to make some concessions to make things work right as a competitively viable game, and that's what we're trying to do: make items-on Brawl competitively viable with as few concessions as possible, or at least with intelligent concessions.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    when I said "revolves around that one aspect", I mean it absolutely destroys the game. The point where the game becomes less of "who is more skilled" and more of "who can horde the best items and use them well". items in Metal Warriors, for instance, absolutely destroys the game (for those who play it and disagree, I'm not saying having an item negates skill). items in SSBB.. I don't think that's been proven at all
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,753 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    My take on it is this,

    if you really feel you have to craft the game into something that's competitive, and that its not competitive at default... is it really worth playing competitively in the first place?

    e$ports
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You are certainly right that it hasn't been proven that ALL items degenerate the game... but certain ones do, as far as this project can tell, and we have logical reasons (both theoretical and derived from real-world testing) as to why we think that way. Suffice it to say, I'm sure you've already read those. Haha.

    @above: ...well, Melee had to be crafted into a competitive game, and that worked out pretty well, wouldn't you say?
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    I didn't think that golden hammer made the game worse. But then again I didn't know it had more range, covered more, the chance is 1/8th, etc.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    eh, from what i've seen the ranges are damn near similiar. the hammer head falling off and squeak hammer happen comparitively at the same interval, the only real difference is floating and attack speed.

    the attack speed keeps people from clashing attacks that would usually be beneficial to grounded characters (ganondorf can hide behind his jab to clash with the hammer, and then once it clashed, you could ftilt and get free shit, but its a no go on the golden hammer because of attack speed.)

    the floating really is there to avoid getting gimped off the side if someone gets a throw on you. its air mobility is slow, and doesn't cover much range, and if you block it, you can usually roll away on reaction. if its used to keep people from ledge stalling, there's many ways to combat it or straight avoid it.

    and if we are talking about damage, which i will concede is a bit more powerful than the regular hammer, we are then talking about a long strain of failed attempts to avoid it... long activation time, simple hammer mobility, still susceptible to being attacked and fucked over... you either failed to succeed or took none of these actions and paid for it.

    there is risk-reward in this item, and sometime it will fuck you over... and i'm not simply talking about the random risky of it being squeaky. if people actually tried shit, they could easily get a free 50-60% on a hammer user if he fucks up and falls for your gameplan, and the only thing they can do once stuck in it is mash triggers and hope they drop the hammer. no air tech, no ground tech...

    it isn't so much about that they game is okay without the weapon, its more like i don't see the reasoning behind it. the list is supposed to be an objective look, yet in practice, i don't think i've ever been out matched by a golden hammer. i might have lost, but it wasn't because the hammer user was lucky... it was that i didn't enact the right plan, and i lost because of it.

    the problem with the item agenda is that people don't think that way. they see an item, and think that the item beat them, not the other user, and it damn sure wasn't thier fault. no one is willing to accept the blame of losing to an item because they lacked the ability to counter it... its like the people who bitch that a certain character's rushdown is too good, but in reality they just don't know the counter to it.

    does it make that person who's taking advantage of a person's lack of knowledge a great player? no. the player getting owned by it is the one to blame.

    as it pertains to this game, very few weapons should spawn in and completely catch you by suprise. there is fair enough warning, and the ones that don't give any warning or do ruin gameplay to the point of brokenness should be banned. but shit like bumper, unira, and golden hammer being banned? doing that would be like taking away someone's rush down because people were too lazy to find ways to combat it.
    O_o
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    My take on it is this,

    if you really feel you have to craft the game into something that's competitive, and that its not competitive at default... is it really worth playing competitively in the first place?

    Most FPS games need to be "crafted" into being true tourney-worthy games. As does Pokemon (video game). And Magic. Doesn't mean they can't be played "default", but hey. A friend of mine ("DTJB" on here, Keits knows him) and I played about an hour of All-Brawl last night and even he, someone who loves playing the game in all of its weird random-ass glory more than anything, thinks the fan is retarded. When you start admitting that certain things detract from gameplay (fan, Mario Bros stage), everything becomes up for debate. And rightfully so.

    I like this thread and the idea behind it. I'd rather not see it turned into another "you don't play this game at default therefore you aren't good at the game" or "you aren't playing the real game at all" thread.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Post of the year, Subt-L. I'd rep you if I could. Good shit.

    Edit - Hogosha, thats really interesting, because you play Peach and he plays Wario, and I know Wario can get out of a Peach fan trap in an position on the stage (easier than most characters, too).
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  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    Post of the year, Subt-L. I'd rep you if I could. Good shit.

    Edit - Hogosha, thats really interesting, because you play Peach and he plays Wario, and I know Wario can get out of a Peach fan trap in an position on the stage (easier than most characters, too).

    We were actually playing mostly random. I remember getting him in one while he was Pit. Don't remember who I was, but he was having a hell of a time getting out, even with me telling him what to do. He got me in one and it was damn near impossible for me to get out and I tried DI-ing every which way I could...can't remember the characters for that one either. Didn't always happen that we couldn't get out (DI-ing up or behind a few times, or washed away on Distant Planet or whatever the Pikmin stage is called), but even then there was a lot of % being dealt.

    I think the worst fan fiascos last night were a party ball spawning three fans (that point got guarded a lot) and a fan spawning right behind me while he wasn't right on top of me.

    *shrugs* That's really neither here nor there, though. Point is, the idea of this thread is awesome to me. The "default or nothing" mentality annoys me because it blatently DOESN'T apply to everything and anyone saying it does simply needs to open their eyes and take a good look around them. Posts like subt-L's are great. Posts like Pimp Willy's need to take a hike. Contrary to popular belief, I LIKE playing with items. But when a random spawn controls a match because that item spawn (a fan behind you) was 100x better than every other item spawn in the match (two smoke balls, a sticker, and a piece of cake), then you need to do one of three things.
    -- Not play the game (which some won't...and I respect that, as long as they SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT)
    -- Ban all items (some do that, and I actually prefer that style over others, but I will agree it's a COMPLETELY different game than with items on)
    -- Or turn off certain items. This middle ground is something that's been done for years with other games. I'd LOVE to see this applied as a standard type of Smash tourney. Not the ONLY type (no item Brawl needs to stay), but it's definitely something that should be given a fair share of attention. Hell, when there IS a standard list, I'll run a tourney with it.
  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,753 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Most FPS games need to be "crafted" into being true tourney-worthy games. As does Pokemon (video game). And Magic. Doesn't mean they can't be played "default", but hey. A friend of mine ("DTJB" on here, Keits knows him) and I played about an hour of All-Brawl last night and even he, someone who loves playing the game in all of its weird random-ass glory more than anything, thinks the fan is retarded. When you start admitting that certain things detract from gameplay (fan, Mario Bros stage), everything becomes up for debate. And rightfully so.

    I like this thread and the idea behind it. I'd rather not see it turned into another "you don't play this game at default therefore you aren't good at the game" or "you aren't playing the real game at all" thread.

    I'm actually curious as to how M:TG isn't played at default? I mean, outside of the really broken Type 1 Banned cards?

    I'm not saying that Brawl is better as All Brawl, or some brawl, or diet brawl, I'm just making a point that I disagree with this statement. I definitely do NOT feel it is up to the player to change the game.

    If you do have a game where you need to change it so extremely from what it starts with (like brawl... stripping out all items/most items, stripping out majority of stages) in order to have what is deemed "tournament viable," that mostly means it's not worth being tournament viable in the first place. Everything is most definitely up for debate, but at some point of banning things, you just have to realize it's not worth it, and find a different, more worthy game to compete in.

    As far as melee goes... no, I do not find that it worked out very well at all. I will readily admit that I never played it competitively ever, it's not my cup of tea. Inside of the small sect of people who play melee "tournament rules" (NO ITEMS! FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!) it has been pretty popular. It has the BIGGEST install base (and potential competitors) pretty much of any fighting game on the market at the time (as brawl does now), and yet it works so hard to alienate the majority of the people who play the game by stripping it down. The smash community is big, but it has the potential to be so much bigger if it just reached out and was able to connect with the people who play this game, as is, out of the box instead of creating their own magical "tournament" version of it.

    Just a little anecdote that I always think of when looking at the Smash community. When I was in 4th grade, I used to play kickball everyday, that was my recess sport. One day after school, me and a friend got together and played some tetherball, and had fun. The next week, I decided I wanted to try to play tetherball, so I went over to the courts and waited in line. When it was finally my turn, I stepped up, grabbed the ball, and hit it. My opponent grabbed the ball, and she yelled "What are you doing? You have to go 3 times left, then 2 times right first." I just stared at her, confused. I tried to figure out what she was talking about, but I couldn't for the life of me understand what the hell was going on. Her and everyone else who constantly played tetherball everyday apparently had some arbitrary set of rules that must be adhered to at the start of the match. Seeing as I just wanted to play tetherball, I hung my head, gave up in frustration after having no idea what they were talking about, and walked off the courts back to play Kickball. Since then, I have never tried to play tetherball again.

    e$ports
    FC: 0018-4935-1331
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ok, first of all... No items may be right, but the FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION part is not. I've been playing competitive Smash for about 2.5 years now, and I can assure you that what you describe is a VERY small sub-set of Smashdom. The majority of us actually take offense when people stereotype us like that, so... try not to.

    Secondly, just because you didn't like competitive Smash didin't mean it wasn't a 'smashing' success (if you'll pardon the pun). Sure, most people are a little confused when they hear the tournament rules (I, for one, had a big 'What the f**k?!' moment at the term 'Advanced Slob Picks'), but once you learn them, amazingly enough, they work. I don't play that way casually, but when I'm going balls-to-the-wall, I sometimes get tired of items mucking up my combos. And this is coming from the guy heading up SWF's largest item project since... well, since I've been there (not a long time, admittedly).

    As for reaching out... that's EXACTLY why I started this project, and why it has such a following. People want to play Brawl as a more complete version for various reasons (some people like it more, it reduces camping, it fixes a few metagame problems, etc.), people want to understand and be a part of the tournament scene that Melee started, and people want to come together a a community. As I said before, the future of Smash lies in consensus and compromise. Saying 'every item is banned' or 'all items should be on' will literally get us nowhere. A middle-ground approach is the ONLY way to reliably, respectfully, and intelligently approach Brawl item play. Not everyone will agree on every decision, which is why the counterpick system is in place (and being tweaked). But that's to be expected, and that's what concession is all about: saying, 'Alright, we can ban this (even if I don't agree with it) to allow this (even if you don't agree with it).'
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    I'm actually curious as to how M:TG isn't played at default?


    Type 2, Type 1, Block, Booster Draft, Sealed Deck, Banned list, Restricted list, Peasant Magic, the terms go on and on and I REALLY shouldn't have to even bring them up if you know what Type 1 is. You CAN play it as "default" but if you do the better player will be the one with some disgusting 1st or 2nd turn kill Type 0 deck and every scrub playing a 100-card Angel deck or some shit will hate the game if they play against someone even halfway good. Nearly any competitive CCG has something like this.


    Not everything can be played on a tournament level right out of the box.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Even if that is the case (and I'm not sure I personally agree), the rest of the glaring flaws more than make a valid case for their exclusion from 1v1 fights. Like I said, 2v2 with Team Attack on? Maybe we have something going there. But the implementation is just too... not conductive to everything we know about competitive play so far (plus they break balance criterion left and right, which is WAY more important to the project).

    How are they not conducive to any form of competitive play? The ball spawns, you earn the attack and it's up to you to utilize it so that the opponent cannot dodge it, which is not always possible. It can be used to play to win, there's plenty of mindgames associated with it and getting it has the most skill required of any item you're allowing.

    But the balance criterion issue, which I don't care for but will respect anyway because this is your project and not mine, is why my original plea was to not judge them like they were items. They're clearly very different beasts that work under completely different rules than any other item in the game. If they're judged like the other items, then of course they'll break your balance criterion-- that's just because the criterion applies to normal items and they're obviously not a normal item.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Well, I can tell you why I personally don't believe they are conductive to competitive play. First of all, Final Smashes are, for all intents and purposes, Smash Bros.' version of the super move. Problem is that there is no way to counter them. Supers in MvC2, for instance, can be blocked although you still receive a bit of damage. You can't block Final Smashes; they have ultimate priority and go through shields. Most fighting games give supers a few frames of invincibility, but few have invincibility throughout the entirety of the attack, meaning that a well placed projectile, or even just a well timed punch in some cases, can interrupt and stop the attack; not so in Smash. This further complicates punishment because if I whiff a FS, I retain invincibility until the attack finishes, which means I can just hold shield until I'm done and my shield will come out at the first available frame (as long as I'm on the ground). Add to that how some FS can net multiple KO's (SS, Landmasters, even Wario Man, if used correctly) and you already have enough strikes for an out. I know you don't agree with me, but the fight for the Smash Ball is a TERRIBLE way to implement any attack that can OHKO (and many FS' can), which is where I draw the line. Any time I can snipe a super with Link simply because I spam my arrows and bombs I know that battling for the Smash Ball is a bad idea. Any time I see Lucas TEAR THROUGH Smash Balls with PK Thunder, I know that they didn't even properly playtest the damn things.

    ...but that's just my personal opinion. It just so happens that the majority of the people with a vested interest in this project agree.
  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,753 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Type 2, Type 1, Block, Booster Draft, Sealed Deck, Banned list, Restricted list, Peasant Magic, the terms go on and on and I REALLY shouldn't have to even bring them up if you know what Type 1 is. You CAN play it as "default" but if you do the better player will be the one with some disgusting 1st or 2nd turn kill Type 0 deck and every scrub playing a 100-card Angel deck or some shit will hate the game if they play against someone even halfway good. Nearly any competitive CCG has something like this.


    Not everything can be played on a tournament level right out of the box.

    But in M:TG, the game doesn't have to change to be competitive, only the deck. The rules are still the same as when you first opened a starter deck and played from the first time, to playing in the championship round of a $100,000 event. The choices made as a player, as to what include in their deck (as well as the company itself BANNING any akuma level broken cards), is the only things that change.

    But anyway, this really shouldn't be a topic to debate "competitiveness of games" theory. So I had an on topic question:

    What's the stance on Stages and counterpick choices?

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Man, stage discussion goes back and forth almost as much as item discussion. I haven't seen any stage discussion worth its salt so far (granted, I haven't looked very hard because I've been preoccupied). The only thing we know for certain is that the Neutral Stages are FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Lylat Cruise, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium (Melee). As for counterpicks, we don't have anything set in stone yet; right now, we're leaving it up to individual tournament organizers to pick their stage lists. Personally, I'd rather continue working on releasing our 2v2 impressions than get a stage list out.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Well, I can tell you why I personally don't believe they are conductive to competitive play. First of all, Final Smashes are, for all intents and purposes, Smash Bros.' version of the super move. Problem is that there is no way to counter them. Supers in MvC2, for instance, can be blocked although you still receive a bit of damage. You can't block Final Smashes; they have ultimate priority and go through shields. Most fighting games give supers a few frames of invincibility, but few have invincibility throughout the entirety of the attack, meaning that a well placed projectile, or even just a well timed punch in some cases, can interrupt and stop the attack; not so in Smash. This further complicates punishment because if I whiff a FS, I retain invincibility until the attack finishes, which means I can just hold shield until I'm done and my shield will come out at the first available frame (as long as I'm on the ground). Add to that how some FS can net multiple KO's (SS, Landmasters, even Wario Man, if used correctly) and you already have enough strikes for an out.

    There are many reasons Final Smashes are the way they are.

    A- You only get one shot at a certain timeframe to use it. Unlike in most other fighting games, notably MvC2, where you can stock them and use them when the circumstances are absolutely ideal.

    B- Smash has the ability to fully negate damage through a dodging mechanic. MvC2, SSF2 do not.

    C- You are not handed a Final Smash through virtue of normal combat. In SSF2, MvC2, et al- supers are an INEVITABILITY. If they were unblockable with full invincibility throughout in those cases, it'd be pretty much 'whoever gets their super first wins'.

    D- There is no de facto damage cap on supers in other fighting games. You can say 'Landmasters, Wario, et al can take more than one stock!' all you want, but those scenarios are not guarunteed and very freak scenarios. In order for that to happen, a Landmaster or Wario Man or whatever have to absolutely KO within seconds of activation.

    And THEN, they have to try and KO again. In order to do this, the opponent either has to be pretty bad (and when should we award excuses for that?), make a mistake or be backed into a corner. None of which are guarunteed and the user of the final smash may even KO themselves trying!

    Final Smashes multi-stocking are a freak event. 90% of the time there is a complete de facto damage cap of a single stock on them.

    E- If they were blockable and did not have full invincibility, most of them would be useless. In a fighting game like MvC2 you can still chip someone to death. In Smash, a % isn't necessarily any sort of indicator as to how close to death a character is. Someone can remain in the game for a long time at 300+% if they're good about it. The point is, a Final Smash can't just do a lot of % and expect to be a viable option. It has to KO or put the user in some advantageous position TO KO.

    F- Zoning. Zoning Zoning Zoning. You're in a constrained space in most other fighting games. In Smash you are not. You don't have the space to dodge everything, therefore supers must be blockable. Not the case in Smash.

    There is no reason they cannot be competitively viable. I simply disagree with your reasoning 100%.
    I know you don't agree with me, but the fight for the Smash Ball is a TERRIBLE way to implement any attack that can OHKO (and many FS' can), which is where I draw the line. Any time I can snipe a super with Link simply because I spam my arrows and bombs I know that battling for the Smash Ball is a bad idea. Any time I see Lucas TEAR THROUGH Smash Balls with PK Thunder, I know that they didn't even properly playtest the damn things.

    And while Lucas is 'tearing through' that Smash Ball with PK Thunder you pretty much have a free shot at him. A good opponent will use the situation to their advantage and not let you have the Smash Ball. It's a lot more balanced than you think.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Not only that, but with smash ball play, you'll find dozens of situations where you do NOT want to activate your final smash, and you want to try and save it for the next stock on your opponent or some other such situation. You can have the smash ball knocked out of you while taking this risk, and thats depth, my friend.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Not only that, but with smash ball play, you'll find dozens of situations where you do NOT want to activate your final smash, and you want to try and save it for the next stock on your opponent or some other such situation. You can have the smash ball knocked out of you while taking this risk, and thats depth, my friend.
    Oh, it is in every way depth. I fully agree with you there. I don't know how many times saving my Final Smash saved my ass (I sometimes use Link's as a recovery move, and it is glorious). But that one instance of depth, again, does not counteract the other multiple (and more serious) transgressions. I'll reply to Carbunkle's post to illustrate.

    A. There is no timeframe to use a Final Smash. If I break the Smash Ball, I can use my Final Smash in a second or in twenty minutes; I retain that aura until either I use the move, I die, or the ball is knocked out of me.

    B. Blocking a super in any other traditional fighting game negates a majority of damage, but as you said, not all. Those games allow you an option of escape (in a manner of speaking) even if you can't get out of the way. Final Smashes are un-blockable and un-dodgeable (I'm speaking, of course, of Air/Spot Dodges); there are exceptions as far as Air/Spot Dodge go, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

    C. We aren't talking about what would make other game's supers broken, we're talking about why Smash's supers are broken. Along those lines, however, Smash Balls are also an inevitability. Even if all items are on (to dilute the spawn pool) and turned to low, 1-2 Smash Balls are guaranteed to spawn; that's the way the game is programmed to handle them.

    D. In all technicality, all supers in any game have a de facto damage cap; if you don't block a super, it will do the same amount of damage every time, just like any other move. If anything, Final Smashes are the ones without a damage cap (well, transformational ones, at any rate; Zelda's/Link's/Ike's and the like can only get one stock if it hits because that's the way the move works) because a smart, high-level tournament player will wait until he can kill within a few seconds of activating the attack, then wait for the spawn for a second kill. This, however, is not as big of a deal because only a few of the roster have Final Smashes that are even capable of multiple KO's, and bans should only happen for universal reasons.

    E. Of course they wouldn't be useless; people can use supers in any other fighting game for applying pressure to a foe, and there's no reason that Final Smashes couldn't have done the same while still having a counter of some sort other than 'don't get hit.' And you're right in saying that % isn't a 1:1 measure of how long until death... but it's pretty damn close. High-level Smash tournaments have been won and lost (on a pretty frequent basis, actually) thanks to chip damage (look at Fox's blaster). Besides, look at Olimar's FS. It does tons of damage, but doesn't guarantee a KO; it's still balls-awesome, and that's because of the amount of damage it does.

    F. That extra dodging space also work to the advantage of many Final Smashes, too. Zero Laser can be aimed (to some degree) and can be activated for any distance to score a hit; unless you are a multijumper, you will eventually fall into a well aimed shot. Again, Link's Final Smash has crazy range on it. The transformation Final Smashes couldn't care less about range; they can chase you down.

    And, while you attempt to punish that Lucas, he will open the ball, get knocked away from you, and as soon as Brawl's abysmally short hit stun wears off he will hit 'B' and murder you.
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66

    D. In all technicality, all supers in any game have a de facto damage cap; if you don't block a super, it will do the same amount of damage every time, just like any other move. If anything, Final Smashes are the ones without a damage cap (well, transformational ones, at any rate; Zelda's/Link's/Ike's and the like can only get one stock if it hits because that's the way the move works) because a smart, high-level tournament player will wait until he can kill within a few seconds of activating the attack, then wait for the spawn for a second kill. This, however, is not as big of a deal because only a few of the roster have Final Smashes that are even capable of multiple KO's, and bans should only happen for universal reasons.

    This is wrong, I can easily name a dozen supers from other games that have varied damage. And there's also the combo deterioration to take into account, a system that is present in many games.

    Just think of Yun's Genei-jin for instance. Or try the 17 hit version of Chun-li's super in SF3 and compare it to the 20 hit version.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    This is wrong, I can easily name a dozen supers from other games that have varied damage. And there's also the combo deterioration to take into account, a system that is present in many games.

    Just think of Yun's Genei-jin for instance. Or try the 17 hit version of Chun-li's super in SF3 and compare it to the 20 hit version.
    What I meant was that every move has a max amount of damage that it can do in an optimal setting. Hitting every blow of Chun-li's 20-hit super without deterioration and such will always yield a maximum amount of damage; if you do 35% of a damage bar in an optimal situation with any move (super or not), and do it again in another optimal situation, you won't magically do 45% this time.
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66
    What I meant was that every move has a max amount of damage that it can do in an optimal setting. Hitting every blow of Chun-li's 20-hit super without deterioration and such will always yield a maximum amount of damage; if you do 35% of a damage bar in an optimal situation with any move (super or not), and do it again in another optimal situation, you won't magically do 45% this time.

    There's a chance of it in ST. Many moves have random damage in ST.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Well, I can tell you why I personally don't believe they are conductive to competitive play. First of all, Final Smashes are, for all intents and purposes, Smash Bros.' version of the super move. Problem is that there is no way to counter them.
    stopped reading there. Marth's FS can be dodged on reflex, Dedede's can be overcome just by not being a total retard, Pokemon Trainer's can be avoided by ledge hogging or simply being behind the pokemon, Pikachu's can be avoided simply by rolling repeatedly, etc. I could go on and on. also, that's IF they get the smashball

    I don't think Smashballs should be on simply cause they're kinda powerful, but it's not as if there's no way to deal with them
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    stopped reading there. Marth's FS can be dodged on reflex, Dedede's can be overcome just by not being a total retard, Pokemon Trainer's can be avoided by ledge hogging or simply being behind the pokemon, Pikachu's can be avoided simply by rolling repeatedly, etc. I could go on and on. also, that's IF they get the smashball

    I don't think Smashballs should be on simply cause they're kinda powerful, but it's not as if there's no way to deal with them
    You misunderstand. There is a difference between 'having a counter' and 'don't get hit'. Dodging and countering are not equal. Marth's FS can be comboed into by (IIRC, I'm not a Marth main) like 7 of his moves, in which case you can't dodge. You can't shield Dedede's or P. Trainer's, and Pikachu... well, I have to give you that one, because it's balls-easy to avoid. Spot dodges rape Pika and Sonic's FS.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Jack, please name for me ONE super in ANY game (other than naruto gamecube) that can be dodge, evaded, or blocked after the combo leading into it starts.

    Game. Set. Match. This train of thought you are on is derailed as hell. The solution is ALWAYS dont get hit.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66
    You misunderstand. There is a difference between 'having a counter' and 'don't get hit'. Dodging and countering are not equal. Marth's FS can be comboed into by (IIRC, I'm not a Marth main) like 7 of his moves, in which case you can't dodge. You can't shield Dedede's or P. Trainer's, and Pikachu... well, I have to give you that one, because it's balls-easy to avoid. Spot dodges rape Pika and Sonic's FS.

    you just lost all credibility right there... I'm just gonna assume you've never seen a good Yun or a good Magneto. Hell, Magneto can OCV without any supers.

    You dont ban something because people can combo into it.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    A. There is no timeframe to use a Final Smash. If I break the Smash Ball, I can use my Final Smash in a second or in twenty minutes; I retain that aura until either I use the move, I die, or the ball is knocked out of me.

    Yes, there is a specific timeframe. The time between when you get the ball and when you lose it. It's not like other fighting games where you can stock supers and hold them until juuust the right time with absolutely no risk. The longer you withhold the final smash, the greater the risk of you losing it because the opponent isn't just going to stop attacking you.
    B. Blocking a super in any other traditional fighting game negates a majority of damage, but as you said, not all. Those games allow you an option of escape (in a manner of speaking) even if you can't get out of the way. Final Smashes are un-blockable and un-dodgeable (I'm speaking, of course, of Air/Spot Dodges); there are exceptions as far as Air/Spot Dodge go, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

    All Final Smashes are dodgable. That shouldn't even have to be said since it's been proven numerous times.

    Of course, there's situations where it is incredibly hard to dodge a FS (or even impossible) but that is because the player used it right.
    C. We aren't talking about what would make other game's supers broken, we're talking about why Smash's supers are broken. Along those lines, however, Smash Balls are also an inevitability. Even if all items are on (to dilute the spawn pool) and turned to low, 1-2 Smash Balls are guaranteed to spawn; that's the way the game is programmed to handle them.

    Not true. It's an inevitability that A Smash Ball will spawn. It's not an inevitability that either you or your opponent will get it. In fact, if the Smash Ball is out for a certain timeframe, it will actually leave.

    Final Smashes are not inevitable. Only the spawn of the Smash Ball is.
    D. In all technicality, all supers in any game have a de facto damage cap; if you don't block a super, it will do the same amount of damage every time, just like any other move. If anything, Final Smashes are the ones without a damage cap (well, transformational ones, at any rate; Zelda's/Link's/Ike's and the like can only get one stock if it hits because that's the way the move works) because a smart, high-level tournament player will wait until he can kill within a few seconds of activating the attack, then wait for the spawn for a second kill. This, however, is not as big of a deal because only a few of the roster have Final Smashes that are even capable of multiple KO's, and bans should only happen for universal reasons.

    Not true, due to many many factors- randomized damage, combo damage dilution, enemy defense. Supers in 90% of fighting games have randomized damage and may do more or less to different targets in different situations.

    And it doesn't matter what happens before or after the FS. When the FS is active, it can only take one stock at the very most barring a few freak scenarios.

    And the smart player waiting for that kill stands a higher and higher risk of losing the Smash Ball. See A.
    E. Of course they wouldn't be useless; people can use supers in any other fighting game for applying pressure to a foe, and there's no reason that Final Smashes couldn't have done the same while still having a counter of some sort other than 'don't get hit.' And you're right in saying that % isn't a 1:1 measure of how long until death... but it's pretty damn close. High-level Smash tournaments have been won and lost (on a pretty frequent basis, actually) thanks to chip damage (look at Fox's blaster). Besides, look at Olimar's FS. It does tons of damage, but doesn't guarantee a KO; it's still balls-awesome, and that's because of the amount of damage it does.

    But Olimar's final smash is unavoidable (to an extent) damage. That's why it's useful. Imagine if all Pit's Final Smash did was %. Absolutely minimal knockback. Sure, Pit could zone with it, but it's so pathetically easy to dodge that the only reason Pit needs to use it at all is so the opponent doesn't get it :P.

    Don't get hit is fine in the context of Smash. Given that you have a large area to dodge, a hit isn't necessarily a guarunteed KO even at high percents and the ability to literally negate damage at any time through dodging.
    F. That extra dodging space also work to the advantage of many Final Smashes, too. Zero Laser can be aimed (to some degree) and can be activated for any distance to score a hit; unless you are a multijumper, you will eventually fall into a well aimed shot. Again, Link's Final Smash has crazy range on it. The transformation Final Smashes couldn't care less about range; they can chase you down.

    Yet Samus' final smash is subject to gravity (which means if she tries anything fancy in the air with it and no platform is below her, she is basically dead) and leaves her completely open to attack afterward. And without invincibility, too!

    Yet, Link's Final Smash doesn't work unless he is even with you vertically. This can only happen on flat stages. Otherwise, he has to actually worry about jumping to tag you.

    Transformation FS' are fun, because they can chase you down and yet- you're totally free to run and use ledge invincibility to dodge them too.
    And, while you attempt to punish that Lucas, he will open the ball, get knocked away from you, and as soon as Brawl's abysmally short hit stun wears off he will hit 'B' and murder you.

    He's immobile during PK Thunder and loses control of it as soon as you hit him :P. If you try to punish him he is only doing one thing: flying away in a direction of your choice.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    you just lost all credibility right there... I'm just gonna assume you've never seen a good Yun or a good Magneto. Hell, Magneto can OCV without any supers.

    You dont ban something because people can combo into it.
    *sigh* I never said you did... now we're just getting off topic. This is not a MvC2 discussion thread, so I don't care what Magneto can/can't do. It's irrelevant. The point is that, as things stand right now, for the ease of use, simplicity, unbalance, and all the other stuff we've already said in here, we aren't calling Smash Balls balanced enough for 1v1 play. Next topic, please. [/exasperation]
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66
    *sigh* I never said you did... now we're just getting off topic. This is not a MvC2 discussion thread, so I don't care what Magneto can/can't do. It's irrelevant. The point is that, as things stand right now, for the ease of use, simplicity, unbalance, and all the other stuff we've already said in here, we aren't calling Smash Balls balanced enough for 1v1 play. Next topic, please. [/exasperation]

    Define Balance then, because nowhere in your mission statement do you even mention the word.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    If you would like to read the detailed impressions of all of the items, you may find them here.

    That is a detailed list of all our impressions, some admittedly more detailed than others. The introductory paragraph has the three main criterion we used for balance.
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66
    bad link
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    You opened this up for discussion, Jack. We are telling you that we disagree a bit with some of your 'findings', and are calling you out as being dead wrong or way off on a few others. On the topic of the smashball, you are way way off.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I just clicked on the link; it works. At least, it works for my computer.

    EDIT: I know; if I didn't value people's opinions, there'd be no reason to make a thread like this. But, such a vast majority are against (just as a for instance) Smash Balls in 1v1, and such a minority (vocal as you may be) are for them that it will take a truly large amount of evidence to prove that they are competitively viable in 1v1 without turning the game into a Smash-Ball-campfest or a Landmaster-a-thon. Theory fighter, to be frank, won't do that, which to be honest is why I hope that EVO allows Smash Balls; at least we'll have a (semi-)large scale tournament to base our judgments on.
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