CStrife187, post: 2166356 wrote:
On the ledge stalling thing, I know that none of them require ledge stalling, but the fact is that ledge stalling is the best tactic to completely avoid most ATs and not get hit by your opponent. In tournaments, people do what's best to not get hit in order to avoid losing, that's why it would boil down to this and be very boring.
Edit: sorry about the starman comment, I misread the OP
lamewadd, post: 2166374 wrote:
This works on the assumption that the best method of attack is to not get hit...while in reality, the best course of action is to not get hit AND hit your opponent. If an assist trophy is out, the best course of action would be to dodge not get hit AND hit your opponent.
Granted, it's easier and safer to dodge assist trophies by running to the edge...but all that means is that when a trophy is broken, a crappy player will run away and a good one will dodge everything and slap around the other guy.
Daemonk, post: 2166375 wrote:
I really doubt anyone would risk it in a tournament setting unless it was down to the last 20-30 seconds of the game. Dodging ATs and dodging your opponent's attacks would probably be a full time job in itself. No opponent will just let the AT do the job for them. I am not saying its impossible, but practically, probably not very viable.
But anyways, I don't see anything wrong with getting that advantage. I got the AT, now you have to dodge it. Its pretty simple. Whether you like playing that way or not is just preference. If you decide to play in Evo, then you have to conform to that preference or don't play. Heck, I hate items, and I am still gonna play this way.
Zamuel, post: 2166372 wrote:
Reading the entry in the other thread, it's because of attack speed (some characters can actually run up and punch a normal hammer user), the golden hammer's floating ability (normal hammer can't do that), the above and back ranges that the golden hammer covers, and the abilty for the hammer head to fall off on the normal hammer.
Carbunkle Flux, post: 2166380 wrote:
Do you mind responding to my assertion about the Smash Ball then?
My major problem with your impressions list is that you ban the Smash Ball on account of being powerful, wildly different based on the character using it and capable of turning the match around in one fell swoop
I disagree with any of those qualities being a problem, as these sort of attacks have more or less has been a staple of the fighting genre since Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. And just because it's powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't necessarily make it broken.
Pimp Willy, post: 2166382 wrote:
Golden Hammer [BANNED] - Taking the concept of risk/reward and stretching it as thin as it can, these two items wildly fluctuate between 'balanced' and 'broken' depending on who you talk to...
My comments: Everyone with a non tether throw can perfect shield throw a golden hammer user. Golden hammer is very powerful, but there are definite counters in place for it. As such, banning this (while leaving regular hammer) is not a good idea. Besides, it spawns so slow, the smashball effect of fighting over the spawn comes into play here.
Keits, post: 2166385 wrote:
Anyone who thinks that fast characters really have the advantage in popping the smash ball first either did not give them enough testing/time, and/or never really got good at the strategy around smash ball control. It simply does not work that way.
Jack Kieser, post: 2166384 wrote:
Golden Hammer: I'm sorry, but this item is straight-up broken. Sure, you can powershield to a grab with most characters, but the smart GH user will never give you that chance. The range is enough so that if you just barely glance the opponent, even if he powershields he won't be in range to grab, in which case you're screwed. Add to that the fact that ledgestalling (the Hammer's biggest weakness) doesn't work due to the hover feature and the sheer ridiculous power behind each swing, and you have a frankly really broken item. Oh, and 1-in-8 (assuming that's right) is not a high enough chance to balance out that power. 1-in-5 or 1-in-3, maybe we'll talk. But 1-in-8 is too low a chance for backfiring for an item with that much KO potential.
KMD, post: 2166390 wrote:
Keits, you always have the tools to do those things in other fighters. In Smash, you have a random chance of getting those tools. That's the thing, Smash players don't have a problem with low-percentage kills if it's something that comes from something the character always has. What causes a problem is that someone could get the Smash equivalent of "lol ROM Infinite" by being in the right place at the right time.
This has been discussed at length man, nobody's coddling anybody. Quit with the generalizations.
omfg, post: 2166395 wrote:
k. Can anyone PROVE that which player gets the item is random? No fucking theory fighter or a show of your half-assed "logic", but VISUAL PROOF? Just about everytime I've played with items on, the other player had to ask for my fucking permission before they could get to an item.
Jack Kieser, post: 2166396 wrote:
Umm... what? No one ever said that items spawned in a players hands or anything. Items spawn randomly, meaning that the time, item spawned, and spawn point chosen by the game engine is random. Players don't receive items randomly, they receive item drops randomly. Yes, if you don't allow the opponent to pick up the item, well done, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't there before and now it is thanks to a completely random and unpredictable algorithm.
Pimp Willy, post: 2166402 wrote:
My take on it is this,
if you really feel you have to craft the game into something that's competitive, and that its not competitive at default... is it really worth playing competitively in the first place?
Keits, post: 2166407 wrote:
Post of the year, Subt-L. I'd rep you if I could. Good shit.
Edit - Hogosha, thats really interesting, because you play Peach and he plays Wario, and I know Wario can get out of a Peach fan trap in an position on the stage (easier than most characters, too).
Hogosha, post: 2166406 wrote:
Most FPS games need to be "crafted" into being true tourney-worthy games. As does Pokemon (video game). And Magic. Doesn't mean they can't be played "default", but hey. A friend of mine ("DTJB" on here, Keits knows him) and I played about an hour of All-Brawl last night and even he, someone who loves playing the game in all of its weird random-ass glory more than anything, thinks the fan is retarded. When you start admitting that certain things detract from gameplay (fan, Mario Bros stage), everything becomes up for debate. And rightfully so.
I like this thread and the idea behind it. I'd rather not see it turned into another "you don't play this game at default therefore you aren't good at the game" or "you aren't playing the real game at all" thread.
Pimp Willy, post: 2166409 wrote:
I'm actually curious as to how M:TG isn't played at default?
Even if that is the case (and I'm not sure I personally agree), the rest of the glaring flaws more than make a valid case for their exclusion from 1v1 fights. Like I said, 2v2 with Team Attack on? Maybe we have something going there. But the implementation is just too... not conductive to everything we know about competitive play so far (plus they break balance criterion left and right, which is WAY more important to the project).