"Official" 'Item Standard Play' Thread UPDATE 8/21

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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,849 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    but with that being said, the golden hammer has about a 3 second startup before it can even be picked up. it is susceptible to the same offenses outside of grounded offenses where clashing with the hammer is a bad idea. it also has the chance of being the squeaky hammer, which is just as frequent as the head of the black hammer falling off. and the swing of the gold hammer seems to be identical to the black hammer in all my tests...

    all it is is a higher powered offensive hammer, but it doesn't make it bannable.

    edit: and from what i remember, only a few characters can hit edge grabbing opponents with either hammer. but if that's a big issue for you, keep in mind that if you ledge grab and ledge attack at a hammer user trying to use this, your invincibility will go right through the hammer, so not being able to ledge stall and hammer user should be moot. the hammer user has to play a very specific range to hurt someone ledge attacking, and that range is past the range of your ledge attack. which means if they are looking to punish you for ledge attacking, they arne't trying to hit you on the ledge.
    O_o
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    On the ledge stalling thing, I know that none of them require ledge stalling, but the fact is that ledge stalling is the best tactic to completely avoid most ATs and not get hit by your opponent. In tournaments, people do what's best to not get hit in order to avoid losing, that's why it would boil down to this and be very boring.

    Edit: sorry about the starman comment, I misread the OP

    This works on the assumption that the best method of attack is to not get hit...while in reality, the best course of action is to not get hit AND hit your opponent. If an assist trophy is out, the best course of action would be to dodge not get hit AND hit your opponent.

    Granted, it's easier and safer to dodge assist trophies by running to the edge...but all that means is that when a trophy is broken, a crappy player will run away and a good one will dodge everything and slap around the other guy.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    This works on the assumption that the best method of attack is to not get hit...while in reality, the best course of action is to not get hit AND hit your opponent. If an assist trophy is out, the best course of action would be to dodge not get hit AND hit your opponent.

    Granted, it's easier and safer to dodge assist trophies by running to the edge...but all that means is that when a trophy is broken, a crappy player will run away and a good one will dodge everything and slap around the other guy.

    I really doubt anyone would risk it in a tournament setting unless it was down to the last 20-30 seconds of the game. Dodging ATs and dodging your opponent's attacks would probably be a full time job in itself. No opponent will just let the AT do the job for them. I am not saying its impossible, but practically, probably not very viable.

    But anyways, I don't see anything wrong with getting that advantage. I got the AT, now you have to dodge it. Its pretty simple. Whether you like playing that way or not is just preference. If you decide to play in Evo, then you have to conform to that preference or don't play. Heck, I hate items, and I am still gonna play this way.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I really doubt anyone would risk it in a tournament setting unless it was down to the last 20-30 seconds of the game. Dodging ATs and dodging your opponent's attacks would probably be a full time job in itself. No opponent will just let the AT do the job for them. I am not saying its impossible, but practically, probably not very viable.

    But anyways, I don't see anything wrong with getting that advantage. I got the AT, now you have to dodge it. Its pretty simple. Whether you like playing that way or not is just preference. If you decide to play in Evo, then you have to conform to that preference or don't play. Heck, I hate items, and I am still gonna play this way.

    It's not like the assist trophies do anything unpredictable, original, or even difficult to avoid (in most cases). I don't see why you'd immediately run to the edge outside of just that; stalling. I'd take my chances staying on the field while most assist trophies are in play.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Reading the entry in the other thread, it's because of attack speed (some characters can actually run up and punch a normal hammer user), the golden hammer's floating ability (normal hammer can't do that), the above and back ranges that the golden hammer covers, and the abilty for the hammer head to fall off on the normal hammer.
    ty

    (filler)
    see ya buddy

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  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    What I find funny (and ironic a bit) is that every other forum you'd post this on, you'd be slammed for being too extreme.

    Here, you'll get slammed for being too conservative : P

    e$ports
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    So, yeah. With going out of town, work, and hosting the 5/24 tournament (plus the aftermath), I got really sidetracked when it came to updating this thread. ^_^' I finally finished the v2.0 of our item impressions write-up; I'd re-post it here, but it's like 13 pages (printed) of data, so I'll just link to it. Beware: the thread I'm linking to is a SWF thread, and I know you guys are all on bad terms right now. I apologize for that, but that's where the project started, and unless I really get the feeling that we'll get a lot of support or a lot of constructive input, I don't see myself needing to post something like that anywhere else for the time being; one massive-ass thread is good enough.

    You can find our detailed impressions here.

    Since I've gotten really off track, feel free to ask away, and I'll do my best to facilitate the discussion as I can.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Do you mind responding to my assertion about the Smash Ball then?

    My major problem with your impressions list is that you ban the Smash Ball on account of being powerful, wildly different based on the character using it and capable of turning the match around in one fell swoop

    I disagree with any of those qualities being a problem, as these sort of attacks have more or less has been a staple of the fighting genre since Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. And just because it's powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't necessarily make it broken.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Do you mind responding to my assertion about the Smash Ball then?

    My major problem with your impressions list is that you ban the Smash Ball on account of being powerful, wildly different based on the character using it and capable of turning the match around in one fell swoop

    I disagree with any of those qualities being a problem, as these sort of attacks have more or less has been a staple of the fighting genre since Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. And just because it's powerful and hard to deal with, doesn't necessarily make it broken.
    QFT.

    And the vulnerability on whiff is brutal.
  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Heres the major problems I see:

    Cracker Launcher [BANNED] - Easily the most brutishly powerful of the projectile items, the Cracker Launcher only has one real strategy: land a shot and continue to try to juggle the opponent ...

    My comments: The cracker launcher is very easy to dodge, and picking it up basically tells your opponent "Hey, rush in on me and hit me for free." There is no reason to ban this item at all.

    Smart Bomb [BANNED] - An item built off of the concept of chaos...

    My Comments: A good player can get out of the blast radius easily. You should never, EVER be ko'd with this thing (might be based on character size). The very worst is you take a small amount of damage and then DI away. Shouldn't be banned at all.

    Unira [BANNED] - On the surface, the Unira seems like an average throwing item...

    My comments: One of the most mundane items in the game. Seriously. Banning this just seems silly, I have NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER seen a unira single handedly unbalance a match. Ever,

    Golden Hammer [BANNED] - Taking the concept of risk/reward and stretching it as thin as it can, these two items wildly fluctuate between 'balanced' and 'broken' depending on who you talk to...

    My comments: Everyone with a non tether throw can perfect shield throw a golden hammer user. Golden hammer is very powerful, but there are definite counters in place for it. As such, banning this (while leaving regular hammer) is not a good idea. Besides, it spawns so slow, the smashball effect of fighting over the spawn comes into play here.

    Smash Ball [BANNED] ...

    My comments: Banning a smash ball because it doesn't provide equally useful moves to all characters is silly. This is not a symmetrical game, and as such, factors such a "final smash" effectiveness comes into play at the character select screen, as well as the stage selection screen. On top of this, fighting over the smash ball brings another level of gameplay to the fight. Definitely shouldn't be banned.

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Golden Hammer [BANNED] - Taking the concept of risk/reward and stretching it as thin as it can, these two items wildly fluctuate between 'balanced' and 'broken' depending on who you talk to...

    My comments: Everyone with a non tether throw can perfect shield throw a golden hammer user. Golden hammer is very powerful, but there are definite counters in place for it. As such, banning this (while leaving regular hammer) is not a good idea. Besides, it spawns so slow, the smashball effect of fighting over the spawn comes into play here.

    Also, you can't forget the...what is it? One in eight shot that you're going to die by picking it up? I played some matches yesterday and I was on my last life and wouldn't pick up the gold hammer for that exact reason.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Before I respond to each individual point, let me say this: the majority of the complaints (valid though they may be) I've read so far have been on a singular point of contention for any given item (you'll see what I'm talking about in a second). Remember that those of us in the project who made this impressions list have three (3) criterion for balance. Yes, some of the comments I will respond to are very valid and true... but most only deal with one of the three criterion, and some of those criterion (like Risk v. Reward) have sub-criterion that have to be taken into consideration, too!

    Now, Pimp Willy, I'll start with you (because your post is within reach of the 'quick reply' box ^_^):

    Cracker Launcher: Yes, we took into account the fact that aiming with the C. Launcher is a royal pain in the ass, and that if you miss, you'll probably be punished for it, but there are other flaws that unbalance it more than you think. First of all, it's power as a throwing item proportional to the difficulty in dodging it. If you miss a shot, why not just ditch the thing (if you know you'll be punished)? You can pick it back up, plus the approaching opponent now has to deal with a slow-moving and rather large projectile being thrown. Believe it or not, it is harder to dodge the C. Launcher than any other projectile item because of the combination of its slow speed AND its large size, which means that it may still be intersecting your character even when your dodge animation is over with. Second, the shots don't effect the user AT ALL. What's stopping someone from simply firing at their feet when they pick up the Launcher? The blast radius of C. Launcher shots are roughly the size of most medium-build characters (like Mario), which means a constant stream (or even just a well-timed stream) of shots aimed at the feet can nullify any approach attempt with little to no skill involved, so if you miss a shot, jump back, aim down, and you'll most likely be ok (if you aren't Dedede).

    Smart Bomb: First of all, the Smart Bomb isn't designed to KO, and we say as much in the impressions; the % necessary for the Smart Bomb to KO is really, really high. That's not the issue. The issues with the Smart Bomb stem more from the damage it does (spoiler: a lot) and from its effect-on-spawn properties. Smash DI does work in negating the majority of the knockback and a portion of the damage caused by the bomb, but you'll still be hurting a LOT if you get caught anywhere near this thing. It can also detonate upon spawn, which usually isn't that big of a deal (see: Gooey Bomb; it has the highest KO% and lowest damage % of all the bomb-type items), but those two properties working in concert can seriously sway the tide of battle, which defeats the purpose of... well, competitive Smash as it stands now.

    Unira: This is actually the one item I kind of agree with you on. Personally, I don't see anything too broken about it. The only real problem is that it is just crazy powerful when thrown (we're talking low % KOs here), but you can always just air/spot dodge it. Of course, the vacuum effect really messes with things, but its range isn't good at all, and the item itself even accounts for this (you can only get harmed by a ground-based Unira once every second or so, I forget the exact amount).

    Golden Hammer: I'm sorry, but this item is straight-up broken. Sure, you can powershield to a grab with most characters, but the smart GH user will never give you that chance. The range is enough so that if you just barely glance the opponent, even if he powershields he won't be in range to grab, in which case you're screwed. Add to that the fact that ledgestalling (the Hammer's biggest weakness) doesn't work due to the hover feature and the sheer ridiculous power behind each swing, and you have a frankly really broken item. Oh, and 1-in-8 (assuming that's right) is not a high enough chance to balance out that power. 1-in-5 or 1-in-3, maybe we'll talk. But 1-in-8 is too low a chance for backfiring for an item with that much KO potential.

    Smash Ball: *sigh* The biggest point of contention, believe it or not. Maybe there are a few bigger fights over the Dragoon, but Smash Balls are usually always a hot-button topic. Look, I like Smash Balls. I main Link, and his FS is great. They are fun, new, and exciting. But they just aren't implemented well. Balance aside (which ultimately isn't as important because, as you say, having a good FS factors into character balance the same way having good Smash attacks does, that is to say its just another move to be used), they just aren't conductive to the current competitive metagame. The battle for the Smash Ball can be entirely one sided and favors faster characters over slower ones (and no, slower, more powerful characters don't have moves aside from Smash attacks and things like the Warlock Punch that can reliably break the ball in one hit), characters that already have better FS's anyway. The amount of damage it takes to break the Smash Ball fluctuates randomly between spawns. You gain instant invincibility upon activating your Final Smash which lasts the duration of the move. You can't be knocked out of a FS, unlike supers in most other fighting games. Very few Final smashes can be punished upon whiffing in the manner you describe (moves like the Zero Laser, Mario Finale... well, honestly, not many because the invincibility usually lasts until you regain control of your character, meaning most whiffed FS's can't be reliably punished in any meaningful way). I would have LOVED to have Smash Balls in 1v1... but there's just no way I can ignore ALL the glaring flaws in their design in favor of adding one super-powered move to each character's arsenal. Now, 2v2? Different story. I might, possibly, MAYBE be able to work Smash Balls into 2v2 play. Maybe. But don't hold your breath.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Anyone who thinks that fast characters really have the advantage in popping the smash ball first either did not give them enough testing/time, and/or never really got good at the strategy around smash ball control. It simply does not work that way.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Anyone who thinks that fast characters really have the advantage in popping the smash ball first either did not give them enough testing/time, and/or never really got good at the strategy around smash ball control. It simply does not work that way.
    Even if that is the case (and I'm not sure I personally agree), the rest of the glaring flaws more than make a valid case for their exclusion from 1v1 fights. Like I said, 2v2 with Team Attack on? Maybe we have something going there. But the implementation is just too... not conductive to everything we know about competitive play so far (plus they break balance criterion left and right, which is WAY more important to the project).
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,849 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Golden Hammer: I'm sorry, but this item is straight-up broken. Sure, you can powershield to a grab with most characters, but the smart GH user will never give you that chance. The range is enough so that if you just barely glance the opponent, even if he powershields he won't be in range to grab, in which case you're screwed. Add to that the fact that ledgestalling (the Hammer's biggest weakness) doesn't work due to the hover feature and the sheer ridiculous power behind each swing, and you have a frankly really broken item. Oh, and 1-in-8 (assuming that's right) is not a high enough chance to balance out that power. 1-in-5 or 1-in-3, maybe we'll talk. But 1-in-8 is too low a chance for backfiring for an item with that much KO potential.
    please read my last post.

    what you are talking about is a very onesided mind game, and the golden hammer is not.

    its large start up for pick up makes sure you know its there.

    you can attack through the hammer with the right air moves. some straight through, some trading to get through.

    counters also own the hammer no matter what. you can projectile spam against it. right there gives many of the characters in the game offense against it.

    and how is the hover feautre "broken"? its really good, but it is something you can simply shield and roll away from on reaction. hovering doesn't kill edge stalling, as you can roll through and clean escape someone hovering or you can ledge attack through the hammer when they get too close.

    and in all these situations we're talking about where you can't counter properly is a range where the hammer player isn't really attacking you... more like playing ranges. fine. i don't see what the problem is.

    you have a powerful item on the field. you have a very likely chance that it will be a rubber hammer. if you don't get it, you have time to prepare a counter. if you do get it, you have to range it right to be completely effective. and even if you do, your opponent can still defend it, block it and play mind games, and they still have to be at a considerable % (60-80%ish depending) to get k.o.ed. and if they do implement a proper defensive scheme and hit you, you're looking at taking a shit load of damage.

    i don't see what the problem is outside of cats not knowing how to really beat a hammer user straight out.
    O_o
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The main problem is, again, risk/reward. The Golden Hammer is incredibly powerful, and scoring a low % kill because of a single mistake is a big problem as far as R/R is concerned. Remember as well that one of our criterion for item balance was universal counters to item strategies, so we can't simply say that certain characters can projectile spam or certain characters can counter because those aren't universal strategic counters; sure, that fact figures into the equation, but much less than, for instance, powershield->shield grab does. Add to that the fact that we ALSO have a much less broken Hammer that works just as well (if not better) at enriching item play and there really isn't that much of a reason to spend more time and energy justifying including the GH.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    But its not a problem in any other game. Why is smash SOOO special that using something powerful or getting a low percentage kill needs to be removed? I could lose 1 of my characters in 1 hit in any given game of MvC2. I could make one mistake in ST and lose 60-70%, often leading to a dizzy and ending the round.

    In order to truly make smash a competitive game, we **need** to stop coddling players who are afraid of making "one mistake" leading to a "ko". High level players know they need to avoid making mistakes. Thats how you win tournaments.
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  • KMDKMD Lurkers Anonymous Joined: Posts: 699
    Keits, you always have the tools to do those things in other fighters. In Smash, you have a random chance of getting those tools. That's the thing, Smash players don't have a problem with low-percentage kills if it's something that comes from something the character always has. What causes a problem is that someone could get the Smash equivalent of "lol ROM Infinite" by being in the right place at the right time.

    This has been discussed at length man, nobody's coddling anybody. Quit with the generalizations.
    I'm here to have Eddie turn his upper body into a giant cow skull and make stupid cackling noises while sodomizing people with gigantic black drills. In HELL. Now THAT'S villainy.
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  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    that's if you buy the argument that it's a random chance. the chance of getting an item is less "random" than you think, especially with a golden hammer. You can't even pick up a golden hammer until the animation finishes

    note: I'm not arguing for or against golden hammer.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,849 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    but golden hammer does have risk around it.

    anyone with a falling air attack (bowser butt stomp, kirby down+b, g&w downair) go through clean. rapid air attack (peach downair) will go through clean. sex kicks can go through it when applied properly.

    and then there's ledge stalling and ledge attacking which is ultimately universal.

    which characters are you afraid can't deal with the golden hammer? tell me, and i'll do my damnedest to find a counter to it.
    O_o
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Keits, you always have the tools to do those things in other fighters. In Smash, you have a random chance of getting those tools. That's the thing, Smash players don't have a problem with low-percentage kills if it's something that comes from something the character always has. What causes a problem is that someone could get the Smash equivalent of "lol ROM Infinite" by being in the right place at the right time.

    This has been discussed at length man, nobody's coddling anybody. Quit with the generalizations.

    They are coddling. How you obtain the means to do something powerful is irrelevant. Trying to use this as a case-in-point only shows how desperate this group is to turn Smash into something it is not (a traditional fighter). Why are there so few of us trying to embrace the game for what it is?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm going to have to agree with KMD on this one. Competitive gaming has always been about the better player winning, and even a remedial knowledge of competitive gaming history shows this. Adding random chance already messes with the premise enough, and getting anyone who has played competitive Melee in the last 5 years to play with any random chance variables activated is a challenge in and of itself. (As an aside, I can see how random chance can actually enhance the search for the better player, but that's just me). It's not a question of '[embracing] the game for what it is', its a question of 'how does the Smash design fit into competitive gaming', and the fact of the matter is that, unlike almost any other fighter I know of, Smash has a LOT of excess variables that must be taken into account during competition. No other fighter has to go through as many hoops to be competitively viable (at least competitively viable as far as competitive gaming as defined by history is concerned) as Smash does, which is why we don't allow 'broken' (as determined by our project's balance criterion) items. The item list we have is almost 50/50 in terms of bans/allows, so it's not like we're totally gimping the game. We're just trimming away the excess, trying to find what works and what doesn't as far as competitive gaming is concerned.

    Don't forget, there are precedents that must be respected; if you want to break those precedents, feel free to try, but there will be a TON of resistance (which is why this project is attempting to find the middle ground).
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    k. Can anyone PROVE that which player gets the item is random? No fucking theory fighter or a show of your half-assed "logic", but VISUAL PROOF? Just about everytime I've played with items on, the other player had to ask for my fucking permission before they could get to an item.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    k. Can anyone PROVE that which player gets the item is random? No fucking theory fighter or a show of your half-assed "logic", but VISUAL PROOF? Just about everytime I've played with items on, the other player had to ask for my fucking permission before they could get to an item.

    Umm... what? No one ever said that items spawned in a players hands or anything. Items spawn randomly, meaning that the time, item spawned, and spawn point chosen by the game engine is random. Players don't receive items randomly, they receive item drops randomly. Yes, if you don't allow the opponent to pick up the item, well done, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't there before and now it is thanks to a completely random and unpredictable algorithm.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Jack - Wrong. Competitive gaming is about who can win at the game being played. We are not adding random chance to the game. People are trying to remove as much of it as possible. You are simply not playing the same game anymore when you do this, and while it is "people being competitive over items of brawl", it is not seeing who the best brawl players potentially are.

    choosing to remove something becuase you cannot master the skills needed to deal with it is not competitive. Competitors do not sidestep the problem, they fight it.

    And again, good job showing how little you actually tested the items. They do spawn on a regular timed interval. Every 10-14 seconds on medium. Its very easy to get a rhythm going of when the next one will be spawning.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    10-14 seconds is still random. It's just random within a 4 second interval. If it was every 14 seconds without fail, you would be right. The fact remains that it is impossible to accurately and reliably predict item spawns, which is what the whole debate is about right now. Random chance, AGAIN, has its place, but competitive Smash (which happens to be the game we're playing, btw) has, for the majority of its lifespan, been about reducing random variables as much as possible. I don't agree with that, and neither does anyone who has applied themselves to this project, so we try to reduce random chance to a manageable level without eliminating it entirely.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Umm... what? No one ever said that items spawned in a players hands or anything. Items spawn randomly, meaning that the time, item spawned, and spawn point chosen by the game engine is random. Players don't receive items randomly, they receive item drops randomly. Yes, if you don't allow the opponent to pick up the item, well done, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't there before and now it is thanks to a completely random and unpredictable algorithm.
    I don't see anything wrong with this. items are powerful, either player has access to them. the player that picks up the item (which means that the player couldn't be stopped from grabbing the item, the opponent lost the battle for the item, or opponent lets them grab it) gains access to the item. Even if the item is picked up, you can still defend yourself

    the first route to go with dealing with randomness is what can YOU, the player, do about it. if the randomness is too powerful an aspect (ex. the entire game revolves around that ONE aspect), THEN it needs to be dealt with.
    see ya buddy

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You see, you just explained yourself why bans and intelligent item lists have to be made. "if the randomness is too powerful an aspect (ex. the entire game revolves around that ONE aspect), THEN it needs to be dealt with." If you don't have a fair, balanced, and intelligent item list, people will simply farm items, compounding the already problematic campy nature of Brawl's current metagame. Part of the allure to many people who used to be completely against item play is that, if done correctly, items can stifle campy gameplay without becoming the most dominant aspect of a fight. The fact remains that Brawl (and Smash) is a party game first. We have to craft it into a competitively viable (and fair) fighter, regardless of what 'purist' mentalities we may hold. It's a nice thought that we can play Brawl in a very unaltered state and not have competition degenerate, but as of RIGHT NOW, that isn't the case. We have to make some concessions to make things work right as a competitively viable game, and that's what we're trying to do: make items-on Brawl competitively viable with as few concessions as possible, or at least with intelligent concessions.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    when I said "revolves around that one aspect", I mean it absolutely destroys the game. The point where the game becomes less of "who is more skilled" and more of "who can horde the best items and use them well". items in Metal Warriors, for instance, absolutely destroys the game (for those who play it and disagree, I'm not saying having an item negates skill). items in SSBB.. I don't think that's been proven at all
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    My take on it is this,

    if you really feel you have to craft the game into something that's competitive, and that its not competitive at default... is it really worth playing competitively in the first place?

    e$ports
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You are certainly right that it hasn't been proven that ALL items degenerate the game... but certain ones do, as far as this project can tell, and we have logical reasons (both theoretical and derived from real-world testing) as to why we think that way. Suffice it to say, I'm sure you've already read those. Haha.

    @above: ...well, Melee had to be crafted into a competitive game, and that worked out pretty well, wouldn't you say?
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    I didn't think that golden hammer made the game worse. But then again I didn't know it had more range, covered more, the chance is 1/8th, etc.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
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  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,849 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    eh, from what i've seen the ranges are damn near similiar. the hammer head falling off and squeak hammer happen comparitively at the same interval, the only real difference is floating and attack speed.

    the attack speed keeps people from clashing attacks that would usually be beneficial to grounded characters (ganondorf can hide behind his jab to clash with the hammer, and then once it clashed, you could ftilt and get free shit, but its a no go on the golden hammer because of attack speed.)

    the floating really is there to avoid getting gimped off the side if someone gets a throw on you. its air mobility is slow, and doesn't cover much range, and if you block it, you can usually roll away on reaction. if its used to keep people from ledge stalling, there's many ways to combat it or straight avoid it.

    and if we are talking about damage, which i will concede is a bit more powerful than the regular hammer, we are then talking about a long strain of failed attempts to avoid it... long activation time, simple hammer mobility, still susceptible to being attacked and fucked over... you either failed to succeed or took none of these actions and paid for it.

    there is risk-reward in this item, and sometime it will fuck you over... and i'm not simply talking about the random risky of it being squeaky. if people actually tried shit, they could easily get a free 50-60% on a hammer user if he fucks up and falls for your gameplan, and the only thing they can do once stuck in it is mash triggers and hope they drop the hammer. no air tech, no ground tech...

    it isn't so much about that they game is okay without the weapon, its more like i don't see the reasoning behind it. the list is supposed to be an objective look, yet in practice, i don't think i've ever been out matched by a golden hammer. i might have lost, but it wasn't because the hammer user was lucky... it was that i didn't enact the right plan, and i lost because of it.

    the problem with the item agenda is that people don't think that way. they see an item, and think that the item beat them, not the other user, and it damn sure wasn't thier fault. no one is willing to accept the blame of losing to an item because they lacked the ability to counter it... its like the people who bitch that a certain character's rushdown is too good, but in reality they just don't know the counter to it.

    does it make that person who's taking advantage of a person's lack of knowledge a great player? no. the player getting owned by it is the one to blame.

    as it pertains to this game, very few weapons should spawn in and completely catch you by suprise. there is fair enough warning, and the ones that don't give any warning or do ruin gameplay to the point of brokenness should be banned. but shit like bumper, unira, and golden hammer being banned? doing that would be like taking away someone's rush down because people were too lazy to find ways to combat it.
    O_o
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    My take on it is this,

    if you really feel you have to craft the game into something that's competitive, and that its not competitive at default... is it really worth playing competitively in the first place?

    Most FPS games need to be "crafted" into being true tourney-worthy games. As does Pokemon (video game). And Magic. Doesn't mean they can't be played "default", but hey. A friend of mine ("DTJB" on here, Keits knows him) and I played about an hour of All-Brawl last night and even he, someone who loves playing the game in all of its weird random-ass glory more than anything, thinks the fan is retarded. When you start admitting that certain things detract from gameplay (fan, Mario Bros stage), everything becomes up for debate. And rightfully so.

    I like this thread and the idea behind it. I'd rather not see it turned into another "you don't play this game at default therefore you aren't good at the game" or "you aren't playing the real game at all" thread.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Post of the year, Subt-L. I'd rep you if I could. Good shit.

    Edit - Hogosha, thats really interesting, because you play Peach and he plays Wario, and I know Wario can get out of a Peach fan trap in an position on the stage (easier than most characters, too).
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  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    Post of the year, Subt-L. I'd rep you if I could. Good shit.

    Edit - Hogosha, thats really interesting, because you play Peach and he plays Wario, and I know Wario can get out of a Peach fan trap in an position on the stage (easier than most characters, too).

    We were actually playing mostly random. I remember getting him in one while he was Pit. Don't remember who I was, but he was having a hell of a time getting out, even with me telling him what to do. He got me in one and it was damn near impossible for me to get out and I tried DI-ing every which way I could...can't remember the characters for that one either. Didn't always happen that we couldn't get out (DI-ing up or behind a few times, or washed away on Distant Planet or whatever the Pikmin stage is called), but even then there was a lot of % being dealt.

    I think the worst fan fiascos last night were a party ball spawning three fans (that point got guarded a lot) and a fan spawning right behind me while he wasn't right on top of me.

    *shrugs* That's really neither here nor there, though. Point is, the idea of this thread is awesome to me. The "default or nothing" mentality annoys me because it blatently DOESN'T apply to everything and anyone saying it does simply needs to open their eyes and take a good look around them. Posts like subt-L's are great. Posts like Pimp Willy's need to take a hike. Contrary to popular belief, I LIKE playing with items. But when a random spawn controls a match because that item spawn (a fan behind you) was 100x better than every other item spawn in the match (two smoke balls, a sticker, and a piece of cake), then you need to do one of three things.
    -- Not play the game (which some won't...and I respect that, as long as they SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT)
    -- Ban all items (some do that, and I actually prefer that style over others, but I will agree it's a COMPLETELY different game than with items on)
    -- Or turn off certain items. This middle ground is something that's been done for years with other games. I'd LOVE to see this applied as a standard type of Smash tourney. Not the ONLY type (no item Brawl needs to stay), but it's definitely something that should be given a fair share of attention. Hell, when there IS a standard list, I'll run a tourney with it.
  • Pimp WillyPimp Willy "I guarantee we got a rat in the house!" Joined: Posts: 10,766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Most FPS games need to be "crafted" into being true tourney-worthy games. As does Pokemon (video game). And Magic. Doesn't mean they can't be played "default", but hey. A friend of mine ("DTJB" on here, Keits knows him) and I played about an hour of All-Brawl last night and even he, someone who loves playing the game in all of its weird random-ass glory more than anything, thinks the fan is retarded. When you start admitting that certain things detract from gameplay (fan, Mario Bros stage), everything becomes up for debate. And rightfully so.

    I like this thread and the idea behind it. I'd rather not see it turned into another "you don't play this game at default therefore you aren't good at the game" or "you aren't playing the real game at all" thread.

    I'm actually curious as to how M:TG isn't played at default? I mean, outside of the really broken Type 1 Banned cards?

    I'm not saying that Brawl is better as All Brawl, or some brawl, or diet brawl, I'm just making a point that I disagree with this statement. I definitely do NOT feel it is up to the player to change the game.

    If you do have a game where you need to change it so extremely from what it starts with (like brawl... stripping out all items/most items, stripping out majority of stages) in order to have what is deemed "tournament viable," that mostly means it's not worth being tournament viable in the first place. Everything is most definitely up for debate, but at some point of banning things, you just have to realize it's not worth it, and find a different, more worthy game to compete in.

    As far as melee goes... no, I do not find that it worked out very well at all. I will readily admit that I never played it competitively ever, it's not my cup of tea. Inside of the small sect of people who play melee "tournament rules" (NO ITEMS! FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!) it has been pretty popular. It has the BIGGEST install base (and potential competitors) pretty much of any fighting game on the market at the time (as brawl does now), and yet it works so hard to alienate the majority of the people who play the game by stripping it down. The smash community is big, but it has the potential to be so much bigger if it just reached out and was able to connect with the people who play this game, as is, out of the box instead of creating their own magical "tournament" version of it.

    Just a little anecdote that I always think of when looking at the Smash community. When I was in 4th grade, I used to play kickball everyday, that was my recess sport. One day after school, me and a friend got together and played some tetherball, and had fun. The next week, I decided I wanted to try to play tetherball, so I went over to the courts and waited in line. When it was finally my turn, I stepped up, grabbed the ball, and hit it. My opponent grabbed the ball, and she yelled "What are you doing? You have to go 3 times left, then 2 times right first." I just stared at her, confused. I tried to figure out what she was talking about, but I couldn't for the life of me understand what the hell was going on. Her and everyone else who constantly played tetherball everyday apparently had some arbitrary set of rules that must be adhered to at the start of the match. Seeing as I just wanted to play tetherball, I hung my head, gave up in frustration after having no idea what they were talking about, and walked off the courts back to play Kickball. Since then, I have never tried to play tetherball again.

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ok, first of all... No items may be right, but the FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION part is not. I've been playing competitive Smash for about 2.5 years now, and I can assure you that what you describe is a VERY small sub-set of Smashdom. The majority of us actually take offense when people stereotype us like that, so... try not to.

    Secondly, just because you didn't like competitive Smash didin't mean it wasn't a 'smashing' success (if you'll pardon the pun). Sure, most people are a little confused when they hear the tournament rules (I, for one, had a big 'What the f**k?!' moment at the term 'Advanced Slob Picks'), but once you learn them, amazingly enough, they work. I don't play that way casually, but when I'm going balls-to-the-wall, I sometimes get tired of items mucking up my combos. And this is coming from the guy heading up SWF's largest item project since... well, since I've been there (not a long time, admittedly).

    As for reaching out... that's EXACTLY why I started this project, and why it has such a following. People want to play Brawl as a more complete version for various reasons (some people like it more, it reduces camping, it fixes a few metagame problems, etc.), people want to understand and be a part of the tournament scene that Melee started, and people want to come together a a community. As I said before, the future of Smash lies in consensus and compromise. Saying 'every item is banned' or 'all items should be on' will literally get us nowhere. A middle-ground approach is the ONLY way to reliably, respectfully, and intelligently approach Brawl item play. Not everyone will agree on every decision, which is why the counterpick system is in place (and being tweaked). But that's to be expected, and that's what concession is all about: saying, 'Alright, we can ban this (even if I don't agree with it) to allow this (even if you don't agree with it).'
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    I'm actually curious as to how M:TG isn't played at default?


    Type 2, Type 1, Block, Booster Draft, Sealed Deck, Banned list, Restricted list, Peasant Magic, the terms go on and on and I REALLY shouldn't have to even bring them up if you know what Type 1 is. You CAN play it as "default" but if you do the better player will be the one with some disgusting 1st or 2nd turn kill Type 0 deck and every scrub playing a 100-card Angel deck or some shit will hate the game if they play against someone even halfway good. Nearly any competitive CCG has something like this.


    Not everything can be played on a tournament level right out of the box.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Even if that is the case (and I'm not sure I personally agree), the rest of the glaring flaws more than make a valid case for their exclusion from 1v1 fights. Like I said, 2v2 with Team Attack on? Maybe we have something going there. But the implementation is just too... not conductive to everything we know about competitive play so far (plus they break balance criterion left and right, which is WAY more important to the project).

    How are they not conducive to any form of competitive play? The ball spawns, you earn the attack and it's up to you to utilize it so that the opponent cannot dodge it, which is not always possible. It can be used to play to win, there's plenty of mindgames associated with it and getting it has the most skill required of any item you're allowing.

    But the balance criterion issue, which I don't care for but will respect anyway because this is your project and not mine, is why my original plea was to not judge them like they were items. They're clearly very different beasts that work under completely different rules than any other item in the game. If they're judged like the other items, then of course they'll break your balance criterion-- that's just because the criterion applies to normal items and they're obviously not a normal item.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
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