"Official" 'Item Standard Play' Thread UPDATE 8/21

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    But Jack, you must have never considered the fact that you have to pick it up first!

    :rofl:

    10lolercoasters
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I will be frank and I am not trying to be rude. Your balance criteria are double standards. Such is why I disagree with them.

    'Don't get hit' is the only way to deal with a Dedede or Marth chain throw. 'Don't get hit' is the only way to deal with a Falco edge infinite against Dedede. 'Don't get hit' is the only way to deal with the IC's chain throw.

    So why is 'don't get hit' now a problem where Pokeballs, Final Smashes and Assist Trophies are concerned? Because they spawn randomly? That's just not enough. Items spawning randomly is a rule of the game much like Dedede, Marth, Popo/Nana and Falco being able to grab you is. It is up to the players to determine how the items will affect the match. They don't turn the match around without the user or the target screwing up somehow.

    Smash isn't a standard fighting game- dodging is pretty much the only way to deal with a LOT of things. And it's perfectly fine that way, because you get the room and the dodging ability.

    For that matter, Pokeballs do have counters and are not universally advantageous to the user and disadvantageous to the target. For one, anyone with a reflector can bounce a thrown Pokeball off and turn themselves into the owner. For another, ANYONE can catch it in mid-air and just throw it down. For a third, Goldeen and Munchlax spawn fairly commonly and their benefits are minimal or non-existent. Finally, Electrode damages ANYONE that gets caught in its blast, not just the target.

    Not to mention their usefulness is 100% variable to the stage they're on. Weavile on FInal Destination vs. Weavile on Rumble Falls is a completely different story in terms of zoning effectiveness and use.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Don't worry; I am a pretty frank person myself, so I welcome it when other people are, too.

    'Don't get his' is certainly not the problem with Pokeballs (or any other item, for that matter). There is a problem, however, with how that imbalance is acquired.

    Keits noted earlier that he thought how a powerful move (at the time, Smash Balls) is acquired is irrelevant, but that seems (in my experience, at least; lord knows I don't spend an abundance of time on SRK) to be an opinion held by a minority (vocal as they may be), because many people hold the belief that arbitrarily awarded advantages are counter-competitive. I, personally, am kind of on the fence, so my opinion doesn't matter too much here, but the majority of the people I've dealt with voice the concern about the difference between awarded advantage and natural advantage. Allow me to elaborate.

    I held an 'ISP' tourney May 24th, and the Loser's Bracket Finals came to Jumpman (Wolf) versus Mr. 3000 (Dedede). Both players were exemplary. Both players knew their characters well. Dedede, however, is a natural counter to Wolf, as Wolf is one of the few characters Dedede can chain throw at any %. Jumpman chose not to change characters for the entirity of the set, and so I view his loss as his own fault. He chose not to change to a better matchup, so Dedede's chain grab was Dedede's right to use, as a natural advantage over Wolf. These kind of advantages can be accounted for, planned against, and strategized both before AND during a match, which is why chain grabs are universally allowed (in most cases).

    Now, lets come to a few items for perspective. Warp Stars are, for all intents and purposes, one of the most balanced items in the game. They are VERY powerful, but also VERY hard to hit with (against a knowledgeable and competent opponent), making their risk/reward ratio very equal; there is little risk to using it (just pick it up, you can't be knocked out of it or interrupted), but also little reward (few stars result in hits). There is a universal counter to them (running away like a little girl or Air Dodging with style). There is even a little risk to using them, as you are vulnerable for a few frames after you land (easily capitalized on if the air dodge was timed correctly) and you can suicide with them (also a rarity, though) The fact that they randomly spawn is actually pretty meaningless, because the chances of you successfully landing a hit are minimal, at best.

    Pokeballs, however, give only rewards to the user. Reflections will never happen in a competitive match because there is NO reason not to throw the ball at your feet to instantly get a Pokemon out. Once a Pokemon is out, it attacks only the opponent, so whereas the opponent has to worry about dodging the Pokemon, the user does not and can freely attack with impunity. Latias and Latios are among the most common Pokemon, incredibly hard to dodge and able to kill at low %. Such a powerful advantage to be awarded arbitrarily to either player is ludicrous, as far as current competitive Smash is concerned (and ultimately, we HAVE to confine ourselves to most of the conventions of competitive Smash because if we don't, item play WILL fail; no competitive Smasher will ever play it. I mean, just look at how many non-SRK Smashers are boycotting EVO; a surprising amount of non-SWF Smashers are doing so, as well). Because of all of these reasons, Pokeballs are banned. We apply the same logic to EVERY decision we have made so far, banned or not.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Jack - there are hundreds of reasons not to throw the pokeball at your feet just to get it out. 95% of the pokemon do not move, or barely move, so positioning the poke-spawn carefully can make your pokemon deadly. Throwing it at your feet the moment you get it probably wont.

    There is simply nothing broken about the pokeball. Even the ONE pokemon that was still being thrown in my face as a 'free instant kill' (the water shooting whale blue one) I avoided last night while fighting a player much superior to me, and I was so thrilled that I killed myself two times after on purpose to make sure the match ended in under three minutes so I could save the replay. It will be on youtube for Zoolander soon.

    Also - I just cant stand the idea of the containers being banned. Those are full of totally interesting situations and strategies and i fucking love them. all of them.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • subt-Lsubt-L Cold Blooded Joined: Posts: 4,847 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    eh, containers i think are fine... if it wasn't for the chances of them dropping a bunch of good shit at one time...

    there's been a few times i popped a capsule and got a pkball, assist trophy, and a hammer at the same time.

    does it happen often? not that much. but lets face it... dealing with a pokemon, and AT, and me running at you with a hammer which all stemmed from a single item... it probably doesn't sit to well with many other people the few times it does happen.

    it goes from the worthless containers (stickers and single items) to potentially uber rewarding to the point where one is expected to be superhuman to offset the advantage.

    and i'm someone who is for dealing with pokeballs and assist trophies.
    O_o
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Keits noted earlier that he thought how a powerful move (at the time, Smash Balls) is acquired is irrelevant, but that seems (in my experience, at least; lord knows I don't spend an abundance of time on SRK) to be an opinion held by a minority (vocal as they may be), because many people hold the belief that arbitrarily awarded advantages are counter-competitive. I, personally, am kind of on the fence, so my opinion doesn't matter too much here, but the majority of the people I've dealt with voice the concern about the difference between awarded advantage and natural advantage. Allow me to elaborate.

    I held an 'ISP' tourney May 24th, and the Loser's Bracket Finals came to Jumpman (Wolf) versus Mr. 3000 (Dedede). Both players were exemplary. Both players knew their characters well. Dedede, however, is a natural counter to Wolf, as Wolf is one of the few characters Dedede can chain throw at any %. Jumpman chose not to change characters for the entirity of the set, and so I view his loss as his own fault. He chose not to change to a better matchup, so Dedede's chain grab was Dedede's right to use, as a natural advantage over Wolf. These kind of advantages can be accounted for, planned against, and strategized both before AND during a match, which is why chain grabs are universally allowed (in most cases).

    What I don't understand is why items don't fall under these natural advantages? They're everywhere without exception, their existence is always known as long as you're paying attention and they can even be strategized against. The difference between Dedede's chain grab and a Pokeball in that sense is that everyone can use the Pokeball.

    Items require impromptu planning and changes in strategy because of their random spawning nature. They can be planned around, but only when you know they're in play. You see someone grab a Pokeball, you know anything could be coming from a Goldeen to a Weavile. You hear the Franklin Badge noise, you know that projectiles will be useless for a while and plan accordingly.

    In the end, it is still something that can be accounted for. It's just different from the kind of strategizing your example brought out.
    Pokeballs, however, give only rewards to the user. Reflections will never happen in a competitive match because there is NO reason not to throw the ball at your feet to instantly get a Pokemon out. Once a Pokemon is out, it attacks only the opponent, so whereas the opponent has to worry about dodging the Pokemon, the user does not and can freely attack with impunity. Latias and Latios are among the most common Pokemon, incredibly hard to dodge and able to kill at low %. Such a powerful advantage to be awarded arbitrarily to either player is ludicrous, as far as current competitive Smash is concerned (and ultimately, we HAVE to confine ourselves to most of the conventions of competitive Smash because if we don't, item play WILL fail; no competitive Smasher will ever play it. I mean, just look at how many non-SRK Smashers are boycotting EVO; a surprising amount of non-SWF Smashers are doing so, as well). Because of all of these reasons, Pokeballs are banned. We apply the same logic to EVERY decision we have made so far, banned or not.

    Latios and Latias are hardly guarunteed KOs at any %. They KO the least of most of the Pokemon I see come out.

    But that is besides the point. Ultimately, it doesn't matter where the advantage came from. IMO, what should be the question is, is this advantage so enormous that it detracts from competitive play? Say my opponent spawns a Kyogre at the last moment of the match. I dodge it, but my opponent uses the zoning advantage to KO me. Circumstances towards getting that Kyogre are completely irrelevant. Has the match been made less valid by the appearance of this Kyogre?
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    Concerning Assist Trophies, has Devil and Nintendogs been taken into account as far as the decision to ban? Both are notorious for drastically altering the match for both players in a way comparable to Spear Pillar.

    And I'm still arguing for the ban to be lifted from the Unira...
    9.9.99
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Exactly! Carbunkle, you nailed the dilemma right on the head. The problem is that, according to current Smash philosophy, that match would have been invalidated by the Kyogre because it allowed your opponent to get a kill he wouldn't have otherwise gotten (this is the part I'm still on the fence about) not because he earned it, but because of a Pokeball that randomly spawned, an item that takes no skill to use. Had, for instance, a Lip's Stick spawned, it would have been ok, because it takes some skill to use that; you have to actively hit your opponent with the Lip's Stick or get a well-aimed throw (without your opponent catching or air dodging it).

    I guess that's what ultimately kills items like the Pokeball; they are 'throw and forget' items which don't require any skill to use effectively. Keits was right in saying that placement can be very important for certain Pokemon, but in the thick of battle, most people would rather just get the thing out there and camp behind it than try to get the perfect placement for a Pokemon that may or may not appear.

    EDIT @ Zamuel: We tried to take all of the Assists (as well as the Pokemon) into account when we discussed their verdict; there are a few assists (like there are a few Pokemon) that do not drastically alter the match, but there are also plenty of Assists/Pokemon that do, and because we cannot control what comes out of an AT/Pokeball, we decided the best course of action would be to minimize the risk and just ban the item; can't complain about low % Issac/Groudon/whatever kills if they never get the chance to spawn.

    And, yeah, I'm pretty sure we're going to overturn the Unira ban; I just need to get off my lazy ass and update the list (we also had to re-ban the Timer because of a REALLY good exploit with it; I'll link to the videos when I update that one, too).

    Oh yeah, as a general update to those in here who aren't following the discussion thread on SWF, someone suggested having item counterpick lists, like stages. A set of neutral items, a set of counterpick items that can be turned on but aren't defaulted to on, and banned items that cannot be in play. I think its worth exploring, but that means I have to do more writing so I wanted to poll people to make sure it was a good idea before I sink a bunch of time and effort into something the members of the project didn't want.
  • SampleSample STAIRSTAIRSTAIRS Joined: Posts: 66
    This is getting ridiculous.

    'we want items but we don't want them to affect the match in any way possible !'
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    Oh yeah, as a general update to those in here who aren't following the discussion thread on SWF, someone suggested having item counterpick lists, like stages. A set of neutral items, a set of counterpick items that can be turned on but aren't defaulted to on, and banned items that cannot be in play. I think its worth exploring, but that means I have to do more writing so I wanted to poll people to make sure it was a good idea before I sink a bunch of time and effort into something the members of the project didn't want.

    I think it would be better to simply have the current allowed/banned setup + counterpick system that is currently in place now. While having an added list seems good in theory, it may overcomplicate things. With a single counterpick item for your choice, you have to weight the risk of your opponent getting the item or it even showing up due to the randomizer--especially with containers off.
    9.9.99
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Exactly! Carbunkle, you nailed the dilemma right on the head. The problem is that, according to current Smash philosophy, that match would have been invalidated by the Kyogre because it allowed your opponent to get a kill he wouldn't have otherwise gotten (this is the part I'm still on the fence about) not because he earned it, but because of a Pokeball that randomly spawned, an item that takes no skill to use. Had, for instance, a Lip's Stick spawned, it would have been ok, because it takes some skill to use that; you have to actively hit your opponent with the Lip's Stick or get a well-aimed throw (without your opponent catching or air dodging it).

    For the purpose of this question, where the advantage came from is irrelevant. Indeed, if the Kyogre hadn't spawned, I wouldn't have screwed up and let the opponent KO me while trying to dodge it.

    But was the very act of the Kyogre spawning enough to determine the game, to the point where you could feasibly say 'If a Kyogre spawns, then the game is basically set.' That's what I mean by harming competitive play. Where an advantage is simply so massive that there is little room for competition against it.

    Such advantages are why the Pokemon had to be split into tiers that are more equal in power with eachother. Otherwise, everyone would pretty much just pick ubers and that's all the game would center around.

    Personally, though I don't think a Pokeball falls under this category. That it'll spawn a Kyogre is an inconsistent event to get to happen (It will maybe affect 1 out of 20 matches at most) and it's not a guarunteed win just by spawning.
    Oh yeah, as a general update to those in here who aren't following the discussion thread on SWF, someone suggested having item counterpick lists, like stages. A set of neutral items, a set of counterpick items that can be turned on but aren't defaulted to on, and banned items that cannot be in play. I think its worth exploring, but that means I have to do more writing so I wanted to poll people to make sure it was a good idea before I sink a bunch of time and effort into something the members of the project didn't want.

    I would like this better than a flat ban/allow. It would encourage more experimentation with the items to this end, too.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    My personal opinion is that the debatable things that people want allowed (Pokeballs/Assists/etc) should be banned from a standard BUT still tested. They did the same thing with Wobbofet and Deoxy-S (I think it was S) for Pokemon recently. Both were banned but testing still happened and, eventually, they were unbanned.

    I'd like a standard list to happen. Even if it's somewhat barebones in comparison to All Brawl or even what like three of you want (which is All-But-Three-Item Brawl), it'd be a start AND possibly something that could get some heads turned. Better chance with that than with calling every SWF member a scrub. ;P
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Neither Deoxys (any form) nor Wobbuffet were ever banned. As it is, there is no Pokemon that was ever banned. Both Pokemon in question were just ubers tier and only used in ubers.

    Tiers in Pokemon are simply to group Pokemon of similar stats to and against eachother for matchups, because stat differences in Pokemon would make so many not competitively viable at all otherwise. You bring a Farfetch'd to ubers? You can try to catch people by surprise with it, but the end result will be that it is OHKO'd. Absolutely no question- no amount of skill or setup can stop it.

    Of course, nothing is stopping you from bringing Corsola into ubers. If you want to waste a slot on your ubers team then that is your prerogative, but it's bad form (and often outlawed) to bring Mewtwo into a UU tournament.

    Now, with that aside- a flat ban pretty much discourages experimentation at any length with the item. Nobody is going to play with, learn and prepare for something they don't have to worry about. I think a counterpick list will allow everyone to be satisfied here. More testing can occur, they may actually get used in some matches and new conclusions can be reached.
    I'd like a standard list to happen. Even if it's somewhat barebones in comparison to All Brawl or even what like three of you want (which is All-But-Three-Item Brawl), it'd be a start AND possibly something that could get some heads turned.

    A standard list was already compiled from input from SWF. A different community calls for different opinions and a different outlook. Otherwise, there would have been no point in Jack ever bringing it here.

    I'll make this absolutely clear, even though the debate seems like it's heated at times. I like what Jack is trying to accomplish. And I feel this debate is necessary. If nothing is called into question, then nothing stands a chance of changing. At the very least, the absolute worst that could possibly happen is that it was talked about. And I'm glad Jack is being considerate enough to allow it.
    Better chance with that than with calling every SWF member a scrub. ;P

    Who has been doing that?
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Now, with that aside- a flat ban pretty much discourages experimentation at any length with the item. Nobody is going to play with, learn and prepare for something they don't have to worry about. I think a counterpick list will allow everyone to be satisfied here. More testing can occur, they may actually get used in some matches and new conclusions can be reached.

    A standard list was already compiled from input from SWF. A different community calls for different opinions and a different outlook. Otherwise, there would have been no point in Jack ever bringing it here.

    I'll make this absolutely clear, even though the debate seems like it's heated at times. I like what Jack is trying to accomplish. And I feel this debate is necessary. If nothing is called into question, then nothing stands a chance of changing. At the very least, the absolute worst that could possibly happen is that it was talked about. And I'm glad Jack is being considerate enough to allow it.

    *Raises glass* Here, here! I'm glad I was allowed to come here and get all of your opinions; only good can come from it, right?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    My personal opinion is that the debatable things that people want allowed (Pokeballs/Assists/etc) should be banned from a standard BUT still tested. They did the same thing with Wobbofet and Deoxy-S (I think it was S) for Pokemon recently. Both were banned but testing still happened and, eventually, they were unbanned.

    I'd like a standard list to happen. Even if it's somewhat barebones in comparison to All Brawl or even what like three of you want (which is All-But-Three-Item Brawl), it'd be a start AND possibly something that could get some heads turned. Better chance with that than with calling every SWF member a scrub. ;P

    So...you want people to know as much as possible about something you don't think should be allowed in tournaments? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

    You're still working on the backwards system that there needs to be proof that it shouldn't be banned, while the burden of proof lies on the accuser.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    *Raises glass* Here, here! I'm glad I was allowed to come here and get all of your opinions; only good can come from it, right?

    Indeed. Even if nothing changes, at least it was all talked about ^_^.

    I don't think this has been clarified yet- but how would the item counterpicking work? Would it be like stages where P1 wins R1, then picks Mario for R2 so P2 turns on Smash Balls or is it more like P1 declares he wants Cracker Launchers on, so P2 decides to counter with Franklin Badges?

    Or something.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Oh, I thought I explained that. My bad... ^_^'

    So, item counterpicks run basically just like Advanced Slob picks. Say we have a Best of 3 set. Double-blind character selection, random stage selection (neutral stages), only approved items activated. Player 1 wins the first match, so player two gets to switch the setting of one item on the list (off->on or on->off), then player one switches the setting of an item, then player two gets to switch the setting of a second item. After that, player two picks the next stage, player one picks his character, and player two picks his character. Next match begins.

    And so on for every subsequent match.

    I am, however, making a pretty important change to the workings. So far, we've had an approved and a banned list of items; especially due to how we run item CP's, I think it'd be more beneficial to have a neural, counterpick, and banned list of items (much like how stages are run). I'm working on modifying our impressions list now (instead of doing the actual work I'm paid to do, haha), but if anyone has anything they want to add, I'm all ears. I figure the less ban-happy people would have good reasons why any item should be moved from banned to CP, but I'm also looking for reasons why items should be moved from Approved to CP, so let me know if you have anything.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I can see a lot of strategy going into that sort of thing. I dig it ^_^.

    I think that for now, all currently banned items should be CP. This way, the people who want 'cleaner' matches can use the base set of items and ignore CP entirely. And the people who want to experiment and play with the CP items have a reason to do so. I still think far more testing needs to be done with them in real matches (this is absolutely not to say that yours and other's testing is insufficient, but the more data across a longer time the better I say) and surely, more people will if they realize they have to eventually deal with that item in a match.

    IMO, the only items I'd even consider banning right off are the ones Keits and lamewadd mentioned: Maxim Tomato, Heart, Starman and Curry.

    But that is just me. I definitely like where this is going all the same.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Curry is situational. Its best on small stages, and if your opponent has a reflector you might not even want it. It is very powerful in many situations, but its not unbeatable.

    Starman is a 10 second delay of game. Runaway for 10 seconds, even on the smallest stages with the slowest character is just too easy because of how all your defensive options work. Starman MAY save you from something that would have been certain death on occasion.

    Heart and Tomato are the only two that I think NEED to go. If you had to spend some time eating them or something, maybe, but them being instant and uncounterable leaves them as the only two items with this much of an impact without nearly any input from either player.

    Its just 'safer' to run with everything on except these four.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Oh, Keits, what is the link to that video you did of how to dodge AT's? And did you have one for Pokemon, too?

    EDIT: Oh, and I updated the impressions thread just now; it's rough, but I have what I could come up with as a first draft for a N/CP/B list.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Just type "Brawl how to evade assists" into youtube and it should pop up. Otherwise, vising the youtube link in my Signature, and its in my videos.

    I don't plan on doing one on Pokemon, as they have little to no AI and all but maybe two of them are braindead easy to avoid even in the worst possible situations. Plus, having a cpu throw pokeballs in random spots will be even worse of an example than having the lv9 pop assists and chase me down.

    I still do plan, however, to do a video about Hammer counters.

    Soccer Ball and Round Barrel are tooooo fucking fun in this game.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Awesome; thanks. I'll be adding your Assist trophy video into the impressions thread; I'm using it as basis for putting Assists in the CP list (and because Pokemon are easier to dodge than Assists, I figured I'd put them in there, too).

    We'll see how it works out. Haha.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Curry is situational. Its best on small stages, and if your opponent has a reflector you might not even want it. It is very powerful in many situations, but its not unbeatable.

    Well, yeah, you have a point. My main way to get around curry is to use ledge invincibility. Like with a lot of things. Get up on the platform when the opponent closes in and use your invincible wake-up to either push them behind you or pop past them. In worst case scenarios I can just avoid them by going under the platform repeatedly, but not every char can do that.
    Starman is a 10 second delay of game. Runaway for 10 seconds, even on the smallest stages with the slowest character is just too easy because of how all your defensive options work. Starman MAY save you from something that would have been certain death on occasion.

    The delay thing is mainly the only reason I consider Starman. It's little more than 10 seconds where the match goes nowhere in a lot of my experience using it. It's also got that 'spawn on top of people and fuck the match up' effect that's about the only part of the no-items argument I agree with (mainly when it comes to explosive containers; but I think they're hardly the same monster they were in melee, much like everything else in Brawl).
    Heart and Tomato are the only two that I think NEED to go. If you had to spend some time eating them or something, maybe, but them being instant and uncounterable leaves them as the only two items with this much of an impact without nearly any input from either player.

    I agree.
    Its just 'safer' to run with everything on except these four.

    Exactly.

    I'm surprised at some of the choices in your impressions list, Jack. I hardly think the Home Run Bat and Hammer are worthy of being counterpick. There is absolutely nothing about them that ruins any sort of balance with the match.

    For Smash Balls, I guess we'll have to wait to see what happens in Evo. But I still urge you to reconsider putting them on at least counterpick. Of all the items that need their testing in 1v1, Smash Balls are pretty much the number 1 due to what can be done with them.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    To be honest, EVO is exactly what I'm waiting for. We need irrefutable empirical evidence in order to allow Smash Balls in 1v1 in any capacity, because as it stands there is so much theory against them it isn't funny. If EVO works as well as everyone here says it will, then empirical evidence there shall be.

    As for the HRB and Hammer, yeah, they aren't patently broken, but they have a lot of power behind them and can overly punish for a single mistake at low % (maybe not a kill, but still not too shabby in terms of damage/knockback). The whole point of this new format is to have a neutral first match (or as neutral as possible), and so I went ahead and kept them in play but made them CP to make the first match of a set a little more even. Not to mention that the test tournament I held to test the counterpick system had almost everyone turning off either the Timer, Hammer, Bat, or the Ray Gun. Timer is now banned, and the Ray Gun is CP anyway thanks to Ray Gun cheese kills, so I went with the politics for now; we can always change it when the metagame evolves around the use of the items.

    I'm also thinking about changing the counterpick method to 'change two item's statuses' instead of one to accommodate with having more items to CP now.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    Thats all it is... theory. In practice, Smash Balls work brilliantly in 1v1. They CAN also solve a lot of the game's camping and speed issues.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    I think it wouldn't hurt to put Smash Balls on he counterpick list so they can get tested more. They actually seem more viable in 1v1 than 2v2. Messing around, I've seen that alot of Final Smashes aren't coded well for 2v2 and will hurt your team mate--even with Friendly Fire off. There numerous times when I've killed my partner as Jigglypuff since there's some stages where her Final Smash is near impossible to dodge for larger, slower characters (actually for alot of characters if positioned right).
    9.9.99
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Whew, it's been a while (almost a month)... Sorry for the crazy downtime, but things have been really hectic IRL, so I haven't had much time for Smash. To make up for it, I posted the impressions list for 2v2 play! Yay. It's in the thread linked to in the OP. Check it out and give us input if you'd like.

    Oh, and I'm going to be hosting a 2v2 tournament to test out the list August 9th; I'll post more info on it when it comes (that is to say, when I update the main tourney page on All Is Brawl :P). It'll be in Mesquite, TX, so to anyone in the area: feel free to come check it out.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    So, sorry for the multiple posts, but it's been a while since we've seen progress in ISP... well, until now, that is. Thanks to the hard work of a lot of people (including people here on SRK), we now have a certified ruleset. After a very insightful search on Google, I found out that early versions of ISP rule configurations have reached all the way to Denmark, and I'm confident that this new-and-improved version of the rules will fix MANY of the problems of our old formats.

    Especially with the success of EVO, I'm confident that item play, when done correctly, can be a very valid style for Brawl, and with community help item play can be accepted and respected just as much as no-item play. Again, I thank everyone who contributed to this thread and I hope that people keep contributing as needed. This will probably keep evolving over time, and I hope that SRK can be part of that evolution.
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Oh nice I'll have to check up on this regularly, time to go read the list.

    [edit] After reading the list I can kind of agree to it. Kind of sad the smash balls are gone but I see that they are in team play so that's ok. Though why are they set to counter pick only in team play?
    Avatar by str[e]ak
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    As it stands now, Smash Balls are CP in 2v2 because of the nature of a 'neutral 1st match'. Smash Balls take a lot of skill to use/dodge/account for, but they can still change a match pretty drastically (as it stands now, with few people possessing knowledge and skill otherwise). Pretty much, the decision can be boiled down to a compromise; we know that this list will evolve, just like tier lists do, so when enough time has gone by for people to have the necessary experience for Smash Balls to be less influential then they are now, then they can be neutral in 2v2 (maybe CP in 1v1).

    You say that you kind of agree with the list as it stands; is that only because of the Smash Ball ruling?
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I can agree with this compromise. The only way people will get experience is through actually using them. My only issue with counterpicking is that people may CP Smash Balls all the time if they have a perceived 'good' FS (See: Sonic, Space Animals) or you'd never see it when the people playing are the ones with the weaker ones (MK, Marth, Jiggly). But I suppose that's more theory than anything else, we'll see what happens in practice.

    After all, it can easily be argued on the other side that you'd see it most often used against chars with bad FS', since the opponent getting the Smash Ball would be less punishing.

    Do you organize only local tournaments or have you done some Wifi ones too, Jack?
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I've done one online tourney, but that was a while back. It was actually my first 'live' (read: human) test of the ISP ruleset; to give perspective on how long ago it was, though, it was at least 1-2 weeks before we thought up the counterpick system. So, that tourney isn't really a good measure of our current rules.

    I want to hold more tournaments if life and time permits, though, both IRL and online. I was going to hold a 2v2 tournament on the 9th, but it had to be canceled due to venue error (they ignored our reservations and rented out all of our TVs...), which sucks because it got a mention on the front page of All is Brawl. Haha... But yeah, if I get an online one going, I'd love to post it here on SRK; I'd probably get more well-versed item players from here than SWF, sadly enough.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I'd think you would have an audience for that sort of thing here for sure. I know I'd love to participate.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You know, an online tournament just might be something that I could fit into my schedule, especially on a saturday/sunday. I'll start working on that. I've never hosted a tournament related to these boards, though; are there any special places to post/special proceedures to follow?
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    The best people to ask that are BigJonStu and xSamuraix, but all the weeklies did was gather everyone in IRC's #srkbrawl, then ferry the players off to #srkbrawltournament when the ladder was made.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • ZamuelZamuel Non Angry Black Man Joined: Posts: 460
    I experimented with a modified version of the ISP rules yesterday: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=163397

    I moved a few items around within the normal/counterpicked/banned lists. Of interesting mention:

    -Very few people did item counterpicks. The only ones added in during the 2nd and 3rd rounds were the Bumper and Smash Ball. Bumper actually had no effect on the match though there was an "almost" where the person who placed the Bumper nearly had the placement work against them.

    -Smash Ball might have been a bad idea. I feel that they need to be tested in a tournament setting but in the two matches they were used, they very heavily swayed the match and the person who chose to CP was the one who got the Smash Ball. Intriguingly enough, the characters were ROB and Mr. Game & Watch.

    -Unira & Spring didn't cause heavy problems. I was outzoned by a Unira but that was due to my trying to deactivate it so I could take it and use it as opposed to simply ignoring it and floating over (Jigglypuff @ Battlefield).
    9.9.99
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    1) Yeah, you have to be careful setting up Bumpers. Many a time I've edgeguarded with the Bumper only to have the damn thing get me later.

    2) Well, if you count EVO (and really, why shouldn't we), they have been tested in a tournament. But yeah, I do think some more tournament exposure would do them some good. One thing to note: the purpose of counterpicks in the first place is to give an advantage to the loser (of the previous match) anyway. The fact that an advantage was given isn't inherently bad; it's the extent of the advantage that should be considered.

    3) The only thing I really worry about with the spring is stalling (like with Din's Fire and such), but that rarely comes up anyway. Unira is usually fine if you keep a level head (and don't have stubby arms :P).
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,408

    -Smash Ball might have been a bad idea. I feel that they need to be tested in a tournament setting but in the two matches they were used, they very heavily swayed the match and the person who chose to CP was the one who got the Smash Ball. Intriguingly enough, the characters were ROB and Mr. Game & Watch.

    That was meeeee :woot:

    As such, I would like to defend the position of why Smash Ball as a counter-pick isn't bad with actual results.

    First match, I win 1st game with Lucas. 2nd player doesn't counterpick items. I lose 2nd game. I change to ROB and counterpick Smash Balls on. I get the Smash Ball like 3 times and win.

    Second match, I lost 1st game with G&W. I counter pick Smash Ball back on and keep G&W and win the 2nd game...funnily enough I actually lose a stock during G&W's FS by chasing over my ledged opponent too far with the Octopus. 2nd player turns Smash Balls back off and I lose the last game and the match.

    In neither case did the Smash Balls pave my way to a free win of the MATCH. It did make the matches faster, more interesting, and added a level of strategy in terms of counter-picking.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    is this still going on or did it die in a similar fashion to brawl+, but i hear that's getting a slight revival too......
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I agree that hearts and containers should be banned as well as the hammers, but I think that Smash balls are reasonable. All smash attacks can be dodged although some seem to be harder to than others like Sonic's and Lucario's if you're not using Snake, Kirby, Metaknight, or Jiggly.

    I think Metal boxes are fine. They have a good balance to them allowing you to take hits without flinching and becoming heavier, but being heavier also makes it difficult for you to get up if you do get knocked out the ring.
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