Evo Final Rules for Brawl

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Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    stop using the akuma example when you are clearly unaware of how broken akuma was. he could do things the game engine wasn't built to handle in vs play. That is not a good parallel to items being on.
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Sorry if this is pointless at this point but i don't understand the concept of concrete evidence being used.

    You don't understand that people want to explore another area of the game instead of literally banning it right away without any tournament results? The top players with items off will still end up being the top players with items on... IF they can adapt to the playstyle. There are no random bombs dropping mid attacking and killing you with this ruleset. Items can give you an advantage but also can be avoided.

    Akuma was proven to be broke, Cstrife is right.
    Avatar by str[e]ak
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    You don't understand that people want to explore another area of the game instead of literally banning it right away without any tournament results? The top players with items off will still end up being the top players with items on... IF they can adapt to the playstyle. There are no random bombs dropping mid attacking and killing you with this ruleset. Items can give you an advantage but also can be avoided.

    Akuma was proven to be broke, Cstrife is right.

    Akuma was proven to be broken how ?

    What empirical evidence was presented that akuma is broken ?

    Just wondering so the smash community knows what kind of evidence is needed of them come next year ?

    And all you've done is restate "Can be avoided" so can Akuma.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    I'm still really interested in getting a copy of the plans to the time machine SWF used to gain years of experience testing brawl out. If anyone would sent me a pdf of them, that would be great.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    OK, I'm an SWF'er by nature, so some of you vets correct me if I'm wrong, but Akuma could do things that were literally outside of every other characters ability to do and to counter.

    These included air fireball and his red fireball which were both so fast and retardedly difficult to get around that it made winning as anyone other than akuma impossible if akuma were allowed. The opponent would literally be able to do nothing but block in the corner once you started firing red fireballs, and no character had the ability to maneuver inside the air fireball without making themselves vulnerable to easy punishment.

    These things made Akuma literally impossible to beat. Items, on the other hand, can be picked up by both players and are not unbeatable. This is the difference. You can avoid items, whereas you can't avoid akuma.

    again, ST players please correct me if I'm wrong.
  • BigJonStud12BigJonStud12 Great Stick of DOOM Joined: Posts: 97
    OK, I'm an SWF'er by nature, so some of you vets correct me if I'm wrong, but Akuma could do things that were literally outside of every other characters ability to do and to counter.

    These included air fireball and his red fireball which were both so fast and retardedly difficult to get around that it made winning as anyone other than akuma impossible if akuma were allowed. The opponent would literally be able to do nothing but block in the corner once you started firing red fireballs, and no character had the ability to maneuver inside the air fireball without making themselves vulnerable to easy punishment.

    These things made Akuma literally impossible to beat. Items, on the other hand, can be picked up by both players and are not unbeatable. This is the difference. You can avoid items, whereas you can't avoid akuma.

    again, ST players please correct me if I'm wrong.

    You are correct. The problem with Akuma in Street Fighter II Turbo was that he was "imbalanced" in versus play. However, even though he was imbalanced, a newbie playing as Akuma could still be beaten by a pro. The issue became when a pro picked up Akuma. Even when faced against someone who was better skilled, the pro who is playing Akuma will almost always win (I say almost because the person is still human and can make mistakes, but most likely those mistakes are not enough to cost him/her the match). In other words, the tournaments would simply boil down to Akuma vs Akuma.

    Here is an article by David Sirlin that deals with banning in general, and it does cover the Akuma issue:

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/
    "Luck is for idiots."

    - Dr. Doom
    DOOM #3
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    OK, I'm an SWF'er by nature, so some of you vets correct me if I'm wrong, but Akuma could do things that were literally outside of every other characters ability to do and to counter.

    These included air fireball and his red fireball which were both so fast and retardedly difficult to get around that it made winning as anyone other than akuma impossible if akuma were allowed. The opponent would literally be able to do nothing but block in the corner once you started firing red fireballs, and no character had the ability to maneuver inside the air fireball without making themselves vulnerable to easy punishment.

    These things made Akuma literally impossible to beat. Items, on the other hand, can be picked up by both players and are not unbeatable. This is the difference. You can avoid items, whereas you can't avoid akuma.

    again, ST players please correct me if I'm wrong.

    You can avoid Akuma it's just a matter of skill just like avoiding Items by "Controlling the stage".

    And how exactly are items that make you invulnerable or unaproachable beatable ?

    And both players can pick Akuma just like both players can pickup items.

    Edit: What i'm asking for is definite evidence of the kind that the smash community needs to show.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748

    You can avoid Akuma it's just a matter of skill just like avoiding Items by "Controlling the stage".

    And how exactly are items that make you invulnerable or unaproachable beatable ?

    And both players can pick Akuma just like both players can pickup items.

    The post above you explains it quite well.

    Items do not even compare. A lot of them are powerful, yes. But your options are never compromised because they're there. A JigglyWOP or a well placed Pound is still a good, viable option whether I have a Smash Ball, a Sword, a Pokeball or nothing at all. Likewise, just having a Smash Ball or Pokemon does not null and void all possible alternative options on both sides and harm competitiveness.

    At least, not yet. That is still up for tournament results and testing to decide. But I don't think so, at any rate.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    You ******needed****** to show that item (or a certain item) degenerate the game to the point that its 'akuma vs akuma' (everyone picking the same thing or playing the same way because nothing else can compete).

    This will simply never be the case with items. Even the ones that can be very powerful do not compare to some of the imbalance found in many capcom games that we allow. Items off people should be THRILLED with this compromise of a ruleset. You will not be forced to learn how to deal with some of the more powerful items, or have to adjust play style to compensate for falling explosives. You also got some of the more unorthodox stages disallowed. The learning curve isnt nearly what it would be if Evo had truly ignored items-off players and went with something close to All-brawl.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    You can avoid Akuma it's just a matter of skill just like avoiding Items by "Controlling the stage".

    And how exactly are items that make you invulnerable or unaproachable beatable ?

    And both players can pick Akuma just like both players can pickup items.

    So you really see no difference in a character who has an air fireball he can literally spam the entire match (that is slow and goes at an angle that makes it so he can do whatever he wants while the fireball is still out. The game wasn't made to handle something like that.), can red fireball trap someone in the corner and literally would make the game Akuma vs Akuma.

    vs

    An item that you can pick up and use, and isn't permanent.


    You must be trolling or you really just have no idea how much your own flawed arguement destroys you. Akuma was not banned within the first few months the game came out. Also there is no known way 'spam' an item endlessly that shuts down the game to the point that the game will become Item vs Item. The closest thing are smash balls, which you both have to work for / can be dodged / can be hit out of your opponent. You can't spam smash balls...
    Avatar by str[e]ak
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    You can avoid Akuma it's just a matter of skill just like avoiding Items by "Controlling the stage".

    And how exactly are items that make you invulnerable or unaproachable beatable ?

    And both players can pick Akuma just like both players can pickup items.

    Edit: What i'm asking for is definite evidence of the kind that the smash community needs to show.

    You can avoid Akuma to a certain extent, but not indefinitely. He has so much zoning power that it is impossible to stay away from him. With the way block-stunned is designed for SSF2T, once you're in a corner, you have literally no way of getting out. A few MIGHT stand a chance (Ryu/Ken), but by that time, you are vulnerable, while Akuma is not.

    Even though both players can pick Akuma, it was laid to rest that he was too powerful, when the entire Top 8 of tournaments are nothing but Akuma. If you were around back in 1994, you would've seen the Akuma vs Akuma mirror matches at every tournament until he was eventually banned (trust me, it was VERY boring). He became so detrimental to the game (he is the only valid choice) that it was necessary to ban him.

    If you're going to look for "proof" of these Akuma tournaments, you'll either have to dig up some very old alt.games.sf2 records from Newsgroups or archives of some BBS boards that contain the information as the Internet didn't exist much beyond those things in 1994.

    If you want to provide proof, the Sirlin link has already been linked previously, pretty much states how/why things should be banned. That's pretty much what the SRK mentality of thinking is. If it can be proven that whatever in question is detrimental to the gameplay that it becomes the only viable option, then it should be banned. The diamond glitch in Puzzle Fighter, while extremely powerful, wasn't banned. The multitude of crazy glitches/techniques in MvC2, some of which were thought to be unbeatable, are not banned and have counters to them. Most cards in Magic: the Gathering aren't banned until it's proven that all the top 8 players are packing the same ones and then they put a ban on it. Those are what instigate the necessary bans.

    So far, there hasn't been anything so detrimental in Brawl that warrants a ban. The rules are a compromise between the no-item and pro-item groups whether anyone wants to believe it or not. There's only about half of the items that are in and the ones that are actually in are the weaker ones (not all mind you). The choice for stage/character selection has both "winner keeps character" and the Advance Slobs picks.

    It's time to just quit complaining about the ruleset and see that both parties have parts of the way they play the game in it and decide if they wanna practice and go or not.
  • danomightydanomighty WTFSRK Joined: Posts: 1,346
    Some ST Jpn tourneys allowed Akuma in a tourney and Akuma player got laid the fuck out in the middle of the street,shits on youtube look it up yourself.


    P.S don't compare a classics like ST to "games" like smash...:wtf:
    I was hung over from both drinking and smoking yesterday so to clam down the smoking and hangover I smoked some more...
    HOLD DAT!
    Marn talking to Mike Ross @ FR14
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    I still see no definite evidence.

    I'm not gonna makeup my mind based on the conclusion you guys have come to over the evolution of the entire franchise as a collective community.

    Hold some top level Akuma allowed tournaments and record. Show me them and i'll go over them and point out wheter it was won by skill or Akuma being broken.

    I mean it's not like CE SF2 is the same as ST.

    And you're gonna have to hold some new Akuma allowed tournaments when SF2 HD is released (If he is in it)
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • BigJonStud12BigJonStud12 Great Stick of DOOM Joined: Posts: 97
    I still see no definite evidence.

    I'm not gonna makeup my mind based on the conclusion you guys have come to over the evolution of the entire franchise as a collective community.

    Hold some top level Akuma allowed tournaments and record. Show me them and i'll go over them and point out wheter it was won by skill or Akuma being broken.

    I mean it's not like CE SF2 is the same as ST.

    And you're gonna have to hold some new Akuma allowed tournaments when SF2 HD is released (If he is in it)

    http://blog.capcom.com/archives/577

    The Akuma in Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix will be different from the original Akuma in Street Fighter II Turbo.
    "Luck is for idiots."

    - Dr. Doom
    DOOM #3
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    http://blog.capcom.com/archives/577

    The Akuma in Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix will be different from the original Akuma in Street Fighter II Turbo.


    Missing the point.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    And how exactly are items that make you invulnerable or unaproachable beatable ?


    no items in this ruleset are invulnerable or unaproachable save final smashes, which I do not approve of for 1v1 play (just my opinion). I actually think no-item play is more fun and deep, I just think you're using stupid examples to prove your point. All bringing up Akuma does is prove your lack of knowledge on the subject.
  • danomightydanomighty WTFSRK Joined: Posts: 1,346
    I still see no definite evidence.

    I'm not gonna makeup my mind based on the conclusion you guys have come to over the evolution of the entire franchise as a collective community.

    Hold some top level Akuma allowed tournaments and record. Show me them and i'll go over them and point out wheter it was won by skill or Akuma being broken.

    I mean it's not like CE SF2 is the same as ST.

    And you're gonna have to hold some new Akuma allowed tournaments when SF2 HD is released (If he is in it)

    I said go look it up yourself.

    deaf?

    http://www.youtube.com

    happy hunting!:rock:
    I was hung over from both drinking and smoking yesterday so to clam down the smoking and hangover I smoked some more...
    HOLD DAT!
    Marn talking to Mike Ross @ FR14
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    I said go look it up yourself.

    deaf?

    http://www.youtube.com

    happy hunting!:rock:

    Oh no i'm not gonna go look for one of the many threads on the subject.

    You'll have to find me the information and host new tournaments with top level players to prove it to me.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • danomightydanomighty WTFSRK Joined: Posts: 1,346
    You host a tournament if you want the info and prove it to yourself. :cool:
    I was hung over from both drinking and smoking yesterday so to clam down the smoking and hangover I smoked some more...
    HOLD DAT!
    Marn talking to Mike Ross @ FR14
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    You host a tournament if you want the info and prove it to yourself. :cool:

    Guess that's kinda what evo is doing then.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • danomightydanomighty WTFSRK Joined: Posts: 1,346
    Yeah EVO host SF tournaments kinda...:wtf:
    I was hung over from both drinking and smoking yesterday so to clam down the smoking and hangover I smoked some more...
    HOLD DAT!
    Marn talking to Mike Ross @ FR14
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm still really interested in getting a copy of the plans to the time machine SWF used to gain years of experience testing brawl out. If anyone would sent me a pdf of them, that would be great.
    You seem to be under the impression that Brawl is vastly different from Melee when it comes to item mechanics. That's untrue. Items spawn is the same way as Melee. The items in Brawl has skewed the risk-to-reward ratio even more towards the reward side. In the case of items, Melee experience definitely carries over to Brawl.
    You don't understand that people want to explore another area of the game instead of literally banning it right away without any tournament results? The top players with items off will still end up being the top players with items on... IF they can adapt to the playstyle. There are no random bombs dropping mid attacking and killing you with this ruleset. Items can give you an advantage but also can be avoided.

    Akuma was proven to be broke, Cstrife is right.
    The best players have already shown that they can easily win with items on at places like GameStop and Best Buy. The winners of all of them were SWF users who played without items 90% of the time. Hell, at my EB Canada tournament I knew how to use the items better than most people there and I never play with items. Of course I still lost, but I blame that on myself and my refusal to get used to WiiMote controls before the tournament, not items.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Yeah EVO host SF tournaments kinda...:wtf:

    Are you really that dense that you do not see the point i was trying to make ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    You seem to be under the impression that Brawl is vastly different from Melee when it comes to item mechanics. That's untrue. Items spawn is the same way as Melee. The items in Brawl has skewed the risk-to-reward ratio even more towards the reward side. In the case of items, Melee experience definitely carries over to Brawl.

    You seem to be under the impression that brawl and melee are the same game. They are not. Continually talking about how 'items have not changed' (when they have) is not only narrow, but extremely questionable. Why don't you people ever mention the MULTITUDE of things you can do defensively in brawl that you could not in melee?

    The sooner you learn that "new game = new rules", the better off your entire outlook is going to be. You do NOT have any more experience with BRAWL than anyone else.

    Tournaments held in the first few weeks of release are BOUND to favor old melee players. Thinking that won't change as new people get used to the game is absurd.
    Visit OneTrueGame.com for information on DIVEKICK, Tunnel, and future projects.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You seem to be under the impression that Brawl is vastly different from Melee when it comes to item mechanics. That's untrue. Items spawn is the same way as Melee. The items in Brawl has skewed the risk-to-reward ratio even more towards the reward side. In the case of items, Melee experience definitely carries over to Brawl.

    Here's the thing a number of you keep blocking out, or are totally oblivious to and you need to go read up on your own history. Items were in Melee until one, and ONLY one aspect came to be too much for competitive play - exploding capsule spawns in the middle of attacks. Until this came to be such a problem in Melee that items as a whole had to go as a side effect in order to alleviate the problem, they were in play, with a number of individual items removed from play (such as similarly removed-from-play items in Brawl such as Tomatoes, Hearts, Pokeballs, etc.). This one problem has become an option in Brawl, thus removing it altogether without compromising the rest of the list. Let us not even go into the whole shift in defensive option boosts Brawl gave us to make those rewards far less significant than they were in Melee.

    More and more I see people from the Smash community that have joined in well after this all went down and have no idea how their own game came to be the way it is, but are under the belief that it is better and that's that. It's so ingrained that contrary beliefs are viewed as a joke. It's why I gave up on the Smash community back in 2k5, after being there since the beginning. Now that I see there's people that are willing to return to the roots of the new game in the series with a fresh start, I'm having faith in this game's success as it is. Maybe after Evo, things will come to light to show, once again, they aren't worth it. Then again, considering the differences between the two, I'm guessing this conservative ruleset may be opened more for next year.
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  • nasirnasir Whup dat ass. Joined: Posts: 511 mod
    what. the. fuck.

    The final rules are up. Deal with it.
    This thread is done.
    Thanks to Quiche for the whupass avatar
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