Brawl's online play sucks and you know it

Hitaro0Hitaro0 Joined: Posts: 583
First of all, it is perfectly fine and dandy to play Brawl online casually, but this discussion has nothing to do with this.

I've noticed a lot of times, users here on the SRK's Brawl board will post as if playing some matches online will "prove" something or that it is "worth" something (other than fun). I'm talking about those discussions where so and so situation or so and so matchups are discussed and argued, sometimes by playing Brawl online, or showing evidence via online Brawl matches.
This happens much too often, and most of the time I want to reply in whatever thread this happens, so I decided to create this thread, albeit I may be a bit late since the board has slowed down, so "better late than never".

This situation is baffling, honestly. I thought any input delay above what GGPO offers (eg Brawl's) would suffer SRK's wrath or at least be acknowledged as "bad, but fun to fuck around" and that would be that, but it doesn't seem to be the case with Brawl. Why? Not sure, might be the "lol kiddie" syndrome I've heard about.

So...discuss.


And before anybody says "GO GET A BETTER CONNECTION" or some similar remark, I'm just going to add that I've played guys that live roughly 10km away and it had second or so long input lag. And I'm sure that both of our internet connections are not bad.

Edit: Also I'd like to add that "no comp whaa" is not a justification.

Comments

  • AxL KiDAxL KiD Joined: Posts: 9
    Online play will never be taken seriously as real-life tournament play. Why? Because there will always be a delay in the timing between a player's command input and the character's reaction. Laggy or not, online play is busted due to the wii's crappy wi-fi service (but who came blame them, it came free).
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Sometimes you can find things out about character matchups even if you play in abit of lag. I'm not sure specifically what you are talking about, but I imagine some people are coming off as people who only play online. I doubt that's the case.
    Avatar by str[e]ak
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    Online play is flawed to some degree but it still teaches you good anticipation and reaction, as well as learning character matchups. It's definitely not worthless at all. I still prefer offline, but I've developed a great deal of my skill from playing games online, so I definitely won't bash them. When I play offline, I just do better because I'm thinking further ahead than offline only people. Besides, it's nice to have comp available at any time. Even if it is laggy comp. Green dots are like offline games to me though.

    I feel honored I could cause you to start a thread. :rofl:
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I've had my good matches that pretty much functioned just like offline matches and I've had my bad matches where input is laggy as all hell. It's about 50/50. It's not perfect, it's not what I'd REALLY like and yes, I'd say it is first priority to improve in a sequel or expansion, most def. But it's far from worthless.

    As stated above, character match-ups, reaction and anticipation and competition. The online still offers you these and if you can get a good connection, it offers them no worse than an offline match does. Of course, that isn't exactly reliable to get to happen consistently, but.

    And as far as I have seen, players on this board do take laggy online matches with a grain of salt.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    agree with Samurai. What I don't agree with are these statements that seem to throw online play completely down the drain.. as if playing online Smash is akin to Solitaire or something. I learned all of my skill online, online is NOT worthless
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,633
    Xsam said what I was going to say.

    Once in a while the lag will be game breaking and unplayable, more often though it will just lag a little bit yet enough to fuck you up royally when it counts, but on the flipside sometimes the lag isn't noticeable and plays almost as well as it would offline. More often then not my connection with most people is manageable and at least half of my online matches wouldn't turn out much differently if they were offline. However I do feel a lot of the matches I lost online were due to input lag messing my timing up more then the opponent just flat out playing better then me.

    Noticeably laggy matches notwithstanding online games can help you become a better player overall just as well as any offline match so don't go crying about how your ganon would've beaten that marth if it weren't for the input delay:rofl:
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    Yeah lag has cost me quite a few games were I didn't feel outplayed, more like just outlagged. The worst thing ever is constantly trying to swing for someone and KNOWING you would have hit them offline, but the input lag gives the person enough time to spot dodge / roll out of the way and have you sitting there open. Doding is also wayyyyyyy harder to punish in lag, as are certain moves (ie snake f.tilt).

    My only big complaint is in the really input laggy matches, when I'm trying to press B for tornado to manage the height and I get hit out of it, half the time I get hit and recover and my B press for the tornado turns into a side B and suddenly I'm shooting off the edge to my death. That's happened to me I don't know how many times now.

    But, I can live with it. It just makes you play that much better.
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,633
    Yeah but what's even more annoying then that is when my opponent can shield punish me but when I shield punish my opponent the input delay makes it so they can punish my attempt to shield punish them even when I perfect shield:rofl:

    When that happens it really feels like an uphill battle but oh well that's the nature of online play I just gotta deal with it.
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    haha yeah I've totally had that happen to. It's like a punish punish.
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • Corner-TrapCorner-Trap Troll Harder Joined: Posts: 2,683
    Wait, people are denying that Brawl's online sucks? I thought we all universally accepted that by now.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    Wait, people are denying that Brawl's online sucks? I thought we all universally accepted that by now.

    It could be much better, it could be much worse. I'm not trying to justify how bad it is, as it's really unacceptable, but it's all we have, so might as well make an omelet since the eggs are broken.
    PSN: CarbunkleFlux
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    When life hands you lag, make lagonade.
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    Example of how much I hate online matches.

    Playing as Peach, opponent as Snake. Opponent gets hit off edge of FD, does up+B recovery close to edge. I run up to the edge to grab him out of it, only to have the game register me as running off the edge and throwing out a neutral-air. I quickly up+B, but the game doesn't register it in time and I barely miss the ledge. So the game turned what should have been a win for me (gimping Snake) into a very frustrating loss.

    Also, you react less to what they do and just kinda do your own thing most of the match. Characters like Meta and Snake become even better 'cause they can just throw things out. Ike becomes better because his moves stay out for longer and do a lot of damage, so he can just throw things out and opponents have trouble punishing what should be punished. I have a hard time playing characters like Zero Suit because she requires a bit more in the precise spacing department.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    Example of how much I hate online matches.

    Playing as Peach, opponent as Snake. Opponent gets hit off edge of FD, does up+B recovery close to edge. I run up to the edge to grab him out of it, only to have the game register me as running off the edge and throwing out a neutral-air. I quickly up+B, but the game doesn't register it in time and I barely miss the ledge. So the game turned what should have been a win for me (gimping Snake) into a very frustrating loss.

    Also, you react less to what they do and just kinda do your own thing most of the match. Characters like Meta and Snake become even better 'cause they can just throw things out. Ike becomes better because his moves stay out for longer and do a lot of damage, so he can just throw things out and opponents have trouble punishing what should be punished. I have a hard time playing characters like Zero Suit because she requires a bit more in the precise spacing department.
    to avoid that, I just refrain from attacking when I'm being pressured near ledge (doesn't work as well with Ike though). That kinda stuff can also happen in real time too if you're not careful. If you can stay focused on what you have to do next, it's not that big a deal
    Wait, people are denying that Brawl's online sucks? I thought we all universally accepted that by now.
    what I think is that it's not good as offline. that's it
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • BigJonStud12BigJonStud12 Great Stick of DOOM Joined: Posts: 97
    Of coures offline will be better than online because of the input delay and lag. Of course it is frustrating when you commit suicide in a close match because of it (wizard's kick when off the ledge despite inputting the commands while you were still on the stage). However, as many people have already stated, online matches are far from worthless. Online gives you the chance to experience different styles of play and tactics from your very own home. Some people like myself do not live in a big city where Smash tournaments are held. The experiences from my online matches have helped to be a better player. Yes, lag sucks. However, remember that your opponent is also suffering from the same lag and input delay as you are.
    "Luck is for idiots."

    - Dr. Doom
    DOOM #3
  • alphazealotalphazealot Smashboards Owner Joined: Posts: 302
    Everyone should stop making lag johns. A lot of you are already guilty of this in this thread. The lag in the game is the same for both you and the opponent, if the opponent is better at playing with lag it means that you did, indeed, get outplayed. All those missed Smashes, laggy input comments, they apply to both sides, and if one person manages to deal with this problem better than the other, that is a win earned, not a loss to you caused by lag. When you play online, this is the risk you take, losses should be accepted and not blamed on lag, because I'm sure if you won, and the opponent pulled the lag card, you would think it didn't matter and that your victory was rightful anyways. I'm not saying that online is great or terrible, just saying, if you choose to play online, and lose, don't blame lag, it is a risk both players have the same exposure to.

    Its a two was street.

    No lag johns.
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Everyone should stop making lag johns. A lot of you are already guilty of this in this thread. The lag in the game is the same for both you and the opponent, if the opponent is better at playing with lag it means that you did, indeed, get outplayed. All those missed Smashes, laggy input comments, they apply to both sides, and if one person manages to deal with this problem better than the other, that is a win earned, not a loss to you caused by lag. When you play online, this is the risk you take, losses should be accepted and not blamed on lag, because I'm sure if you won, and the opponent pulled the lag card, you would think it didn't matter and that your victory was rightful anyways. I'm not saying that online is great or terrible, just saying, if you choose to play online, and lose, don't blame lag, it is a risk both players have the same exposure to.

    Its a two was street.

    No lag johns.

    I agree, but at the same time you really can't deny that certain characters are better (or at least harder to deal with) in lag. When you are a melee character trying your hardest to get close to a projectile user, perfect shielding and other methods that require fast reactions are key. Input delay does hurt pretty badly in those types of matches.

    In the end though if you lose you lose. No biggie since no money is on the line anyway.
    Avatar by str[e]ak
  • alphazealotalphazealot Smashboards Owner Joined: Posts: 302
    Yeap, there is simply a different tier list for online play, everyone should get use to it.
  • otterotter CFN: otter- Joined: Posts: 4,652
    Yeap, there is simply a different tier list for online play, everyone should get use to it.

    Can I get some examples? I hear this alot and am not really buying it. I hear Ike becomes top tier....I used to lose to Ike because I couldn't become used to autocancels into jab combo. I'd run right into it. And his smashes really don't care if you're sheilding or not. None of this is lag related anyway.
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    Yeap, there is simply a different tier list for online play, everyone should get use to it.

    Not really. Snake is still snake and Metaknight is still Metaknight. Ike and Wolf just move up a bit....but that's about it.
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    ...your avatar is amazing. ^___________^
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Not really. Snake is still snake and Metaknight is still Metaknight. Ike and Wolf just move up a bit....but that's about it.

    Ignoring the fact there's a bit more shift than you state... wouldn't the fact they moved up make it a different list?
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  • alphazealotalphazealot Smashboards Owner Joined: Posts: 302
    LOL.

    That.

    But as an example for other characters:

    Looking just at Diddy: Double Bair's are near impossible as are short hop Bair Nair, glide tossing sometimes doesn't get inputted (about 1/3 of the time), It is very hard to follow up banana approaches with the desired attack because they don't always input at the right time (this happens ALL the time and is pretty much vital to playing Diddy). Short hops don't always register. Diddy is one of the more technical characters and is highly impacted by input delay. What does that mean? Simply choose safer/more secure/proven things that work in online play when playing Diddy. When I started playing gamebattles, I was 14-10 in my first 24 games, since then I'm 25-3 because I've learned what works online and what doesn't.

    There are tons of examples for every character too. Look at D3, his biggest advantage over many characters is CGing, which is hard as hell/not very reliable at all online.
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    Well the thing is, all that stuff you listed can be done, you just can't visibly see it happen and have to do it before it comes out. With example of diddy, you could short hop bair nair, but I imagine in some matches you'd have to input the nair before you would normally. You can't see the bair happen then nair afterwards. It's gotta be done sort of[ blindly. Same applies for DeDeDe when I play him online. When I chain grab, I have to input the next grab before he's even thrown them sometimes to get the inescapable version.

    I guess you could say online rules out hit confirming, which sucks for characters that can combo / pressure well. The big problem with this is you have to commit to stuff you normally wouldn't have to before you know if it's the best option or not. But like I said before, that'll make your anticipation way better having to exercise that all the time.

    Hogosha: Why thank you <3
    "You know that sinking feeling when Zero hits you?" - MTP

    You can only be as good as those you copy, those who you seek to emulate. If you want to be great then be yourself.
  • Person-ManPerson-Man Funky-Strong Joined: Posts: 1,007
    Man, no crap that Brawl's online sucks? On a good connection I was getting a solid two seconds of input delay.
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  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    I do realize that both players have to deal with lag. But it's so bad that it shouldn't have to be dealt with in the first place and actually hinders proper learning to the point where I'd rather just not deal with it. Slowing myself down and learning to play with lag isn't good practice for playing with ideal conditions. Like in the example I typed up before. If doing that causes me to die 100 out of 100 times in an online match but causes me to win 100 times out of 100 times in an offline match, damn straight I'm gonna die next time I'm online.
  • omfgomfg Joined: Posts: 2,028
    LOL.

    That.

    But as an example for other characters:

    Looking just at Diddy: Double Bair's are near impossible as are short hop Bair Nair, glide tossing sometimes doesn't get inputted (about 1/3 of the time), It is very hard to follow up banana approaches with the desired attack because they don't always input at the right time (this happens ALL the time and is pretty much vital to playing Diddy). Short hops don't always register. Diddy is one of the more technical characters and is highly impacted by input delay. What does that mean? Simply choose safer/more secure/proven things that work in online play when playing Diddy. When I started playing gamebattles, I was 14-10 in my first 24 games, since then I'm 25-3 because I've learned what works online and what doesn't.

    There are tons of examples for every character too. Look at D3, his biggest advantage over many characters is CGing, which is hard as hell/not very reliable at all online.
    uh.. no?

    I didnt even know where to start with this post. but for starters, I don't even glide toss much and my Diddy glide tossing is just about flawless online. only reason it's not is because I haven't practiced it. Dedede's chasing chain grabbing is very easy. I haven't mastered the standing one so I dunno about that one. short hopping not always registering? I don't even wanna touch that one. just what the hell kind of demon lag are you experiencing anyway? are those even lag related?
    I do realize that both players have to deal with lag. But it's so bad that it shouldn't have to be dealt with in the first place and actually hinders proper learning to the point where I'd rather just not deal with it. Slowing myself down and learning to play with lag isn't good practice for playing with ideal conditions. Like in the example I typed up before. If doing that causes me to die 100 out of 100 times in an online match but causes me to win 100 times out of 100 times in an offline match, damn straight I'm gonna die next time I'm online.
    the situation you listed before doesn't even really sound lag related


    cmon people, I'm not even for or against online brawl. but if you're going to bash it, don't bash the worst part of it as if to give off that's all there is to online brawl.
    see ya buddy

    even if you die, I'll kill you... :badboy:
    <3 don't let life fool you. everything is black or white
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217

    the situation you listed before doesn't even really sound lag related


    I did what should have been a dashing grab in a lagless environment and the game registered it as running off the edge and doing a neutral air (or forward air, can't remember). Believe me, it's lag-related. I've also had instances where I went to do a down air with Zamus just above a platform on Norfair and the game registered it as landing, hitting down (going through the platform), and doing a down air to my death. Also, completely lag-related.

    With that said, I agree with Alpha to an extent. If you value online play at all, learn to work around the lag. I don't, however, and think it's balls.
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