The official Cthulhu and ChImp thread - Try our new Dreamcast flavor!

ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd!Joined: Posts: 10,797
Welcome Sheets:
PS3 Cthulhu: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/PS3CthulhuWelcome.pdf
MC Cthulhu: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/MCCthulhuWelcome.pdf
ChImp: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/chimpwelcomev2.pdf
ChimpSMD: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/chimpsmdwelcome.pdf
Imp: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/impwelcome.pdf

MC Cthulhu newest firmware: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/cthulhu/MCCthulhu23.zip
MC Cthulhu Variations firmwares:
http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/cthulhu/MC_Variations.zip
Cthulhu troubleshooting guide: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/t.46572/page-40#post-2271122
Chimp troubleshooting guide: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/t.46572/page-85#post-2273436
ChimpSMD newest official firmware: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/chimp/ChimpSMD12.zip
ChimpSMD Firmware Variations: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/download/chimp/ChimpSMD_Variations.zip

Imp thread:http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/s.59232/

Q: I'm having problems on SF4 AE for PC.
A: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/t.46572/page-163#post-5526956

Q: When using the Cthulhu on a PC, I see Select and Start are buttons 9 and 10, and the Home button is button number 13. How come there is a button 11 and button 12, but nothing ever turns them on?
A: Buttons 11 and 12 are read by the Playstation 3 as L3 and R3, the 'clicks' when you press down on the analog sticks. Even though nothing on the Cthulhu activates them, we still have to send the information to the PS3 so that it believes we are a proper controller.

Q: Why won't the PS3 turn on when I press the Home button?
A: When the PS3 is off, it cuts power to the USB ports. SIXAXIS controllers are the only ones that can wake a PS3 up from being off. No wired controller can ever turn a PS3 on.

Q: When using the Cthulhu on a PC, moving the stick around causes BOTH the X/Y axis to change, and the POV Hat to change to match. When using the Cthulhu on a PS3, moving the stick around causes BOTH the d-pad to change, and the Left analog stick to change to match. Why does this happen, and how could I change it?
A: The Cthulhu is designed to do this; it's normal and won't cause any problems. This setup was created as a compromise between how PC games usually expect the directions to be reported (X/Y axis) and how the PS3 expects the d-pad to be reported (POV hat). With this setup, you can just plug and play on most if not all of the games you want to play on both PC and PS3. If you would like the stick to be reported as one and only one of those for whatever reason, hold down the Select or Start button when plugging in; I don't remember which is which, but one disables the X/Y and only reports dpad/POV hat, the other disables POVhat/dpad and only reports over the left analog stick/X/Yaxis

Q: Where can I access the D+/D- lines for a dual mod?
A: D- (white) can be tapped in the D column. D+ (green) can be tapped in the E column.

_________________
Multi-Console 'MC' Cthulhu questions:

Q: What is it?
A: The MC Cthulhu is the multi-console version of the Cthulhu. It uses a more feature-rich chip that allows for the board to support more than just the PS3.

Q: So what's different?
A: The chip is different, and it comes with diodes that help protect the console in case the cord is plugged into more than one console at a time. The green board is the same, all of the parts are the same, the pinout is the same, etc.

Q: What consoles will it work on?
A: Currently, the MC Cthulhu will work on the PS3 (with all of the functionality of the original PS3 Only Cthulhu, so yes, it works just fine on PC), Xbox1, Dreamcast, Playstion/Playstation 2, Gamecube, NES, Super Nintendo, 3DO*, Sega Saturn and TurboGrafx16/PC-Engine consoles. Playstation support appears to work well with many converters.
(3DO support is currently limited to being the only controller. No daisy chain support or support in a daisy chain.)

Q: What about Wii?
A: The GameCube support will work on any game that supports a GameCube controller. (GG:AC, TvC, Smash Bros, Metal Slug Anthology, etc.)

Q: What about on Smash Brothers?
A: Yes! The Gamecube support in the MC Cthulhu includes two different modes for Smash Brothers play. These modes are very experimental so feel free to speak up any input on how it could be improved. Information on how to enter these modes and how they work can be read up on here: Universal PCB (eventually) thread

Q: I have a Cthulhu, but I don't know if I have a PS3 only version, or an MC Cthulhu. How can I tell the difference?
A: If the Cthulhu is assembled, just plug it into a PC and check the game controller applet in the Control Panel. The name should be very clear about whether it is meant for PS3/PC or is a MultiConsole version. If the Cthulhu is unassembled, look in the bag for a set of four diodes; MC Cthulhu kits come with diodes, but PS3 Only versions don't. If you're looking at just the chip, look at the first row of text on the chip; the PS3 Only version will have the text 'F24' on it, usually 18F2450. The MC Cthulhu will have the text 'F25' on it, usually 18LF2550.

Q: What about Xbox360?
A: Nope. Xbox360 uses special chips to prove they're licensed. Until they get publicly cracked, I dont think its going to happen.

Q: What about console X?
A: Maybe, but for now I need more feedback on the consoles already supported. No promises, no guarantees.

Q: If I buy now, and then you get console X added, won't I be screwed?
A: No, you'll still be fine. The MC Cthulhu includes a bootloader that allows the firmware to be updated in the event a new console gets added.

Q: I have a PS3 Cthulhu now. Do I have to buy a whole new board?
A: No. Upgrade chips are available. Installation is just a matter of popping the old chip out, popping the new chip in, and soldering the four diodes into place; if your Cthulhu already has the four diodes on it (board revision 1.4 or higher) then you don't even have to do that, just swap chips. You can find detailed instructions on the diode installation here:
Select Your Power

Q: Where can I buy an MC Cthulhu?
A: Godlike Controls
Focus Attack

Q: How does the board connect to the console?
A: The Cthulhu board has a set of unused holes near the USB jack, labelled with row 1-3 and columns G, A-F, and V. Each one has a specific purpose. For each of the possible consoles you want to use with your stick, you need a cable for that system (from an extension cord or dead controller) and you solder the wires in that cable to specific points on the Cthulhu.

Q: So if I want to play on PS3 and Playstation, I'll need 2 cables coming off of the MC Cthulhu board?
A: Exactly.

Q: I don't plan on ever playing on a Gamecube/PSX/Xbox/ConsoleX. Do I have to put in that cable?
A: Nope. Only put in the cable for the consoles you want to play on.

Q: So how do I install the Playstation, or Gamecube, NES, SNES, or Xbox1 cable on the MC Cthulhu?
A: Instructables for all supported consoles have been placed. Easiest way to find everything related to the Cthulhu is to go to Instructables.com and search for 'cthulhu' which will bring up everything I've done, and a couple of cool knitting instructions.
Gamecube: How To Install an Gamecube cable onto a Multi-Console Cthulhu
PSX: How To Install a Playstation cable onto a Multi-Console Cthulhu
Xbox1: How To Install an Xbox1 cable onto a Multi-Console Cthulhu
NES: How To Install an NES cable onto a Multi-Console Cthulhu
SNES: How To Install an SNES cable onto a Multi-Console Cthulhu
A collection of all of them can be found in rtdzign's RJ45 thread:
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/r.100475/

Q: How do I update the firmware? Where is it?
A: A link to the most recent version is at the very top of this post. Read the included readme.txt for directions.

Q: I get a weird error when I try to doubleclick Bootloader.exe?
A: Bootloader requires dotNet, which can be downloaded here: Microsoft .NET Framework

Q: What's the button mappings on all of the consoles?
A:
Spoiler:


Q: What about if we only want one cable on the stick at a time? Is there way to make removable cables?
A: Yes. Please look into this thread which covers how to use RJ-45 modular connections for making cables.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/r.100475/

Q: You said the firmware on the MC Cthulhu can be updated. Can I update the firmware on my current PS3 Only Cthulhu?
A: No. The PS3 Only Cthulhu doesn't contain the ability to update firmware. Even if it did, it wouldn't help; the chip in the MC Cthulhu is much stronger than the chip in the PS3 Cthulhu. There is a piece called the SPI module that is needed for most consoles that just doesn't exist on the PS3 Cthulhu chip.

Q: Can I order console cables from you?
A: Sure. I have extension cables for Playstation, Gamecube and on hand; the same ones used in the Instructables. Price is listed below.

Q: Can I pay you a little extra to install them on the MC Cthulhu for me?
A: I'm sorry but I just can't do that right now. If I had the time, I would, but the SF4 rush currently underway has everything crazy for everyone.

Q: Would it matter what kind of PS cord i use? Do I need a PSX cord or a PS2 cord?
A: PS2 cord is identical to a PSX cord. If it plugs into the controller port on a PSX or a PS2, then it will work for this.

Q: What about converter support?
A:
Spoiler:
____________
ChimpSMD Questions

Q: What is it?
A: The Chimp is a new board that combines a PS3 Cthulhu with an Imp into one board. It's made for wiring along side an Xbox360 pcb so your arcade stick can work on both 360 and PS3 cleanly and easily.

Q: What's different about the ChimSMD versus the Chimp?
A: http://shoryuken.com/f177/greetings-lizard-lick-amusements-130032/index350.html#post9514577

Q: Why would I get a ChimpSMD instead of just getting a Cthulhu and an Imp?
A: Lots of reasons.
1. With only one board instead of two, the Chimp will be easier to wire up to the 360 board.
2. Autodetection. The Chimp can identify when it is plugged into an Xbox360 and automagically go into 360 mode. No slide switches, no holding down buttons, just plug in and go on any system.
3. Trigger inversion. If you want to connect the Chimp to an Xbox360 pad that requires the triggers to be inverted, the Chimp will handle this for you. No more transistor or inverter chip hacks.

Q: So why would I ever want to use a PS3 Cthulhu instead of a Chimp?
A: There are some reasons for that as well.
1. If you're going to mod more than just a 360 and PS3 pad together, you'll have more than one cable coming out of the box, and risk causing severe problems if its ever plugged into more than one console at a time. The diodes on a PS3 Cthulhu will help you route all of the power in a way that is safe in case that ever happens.
2. The PS3 Cthulhu can be upgraded to an MC easily. The Chimp can ONLY support PS3/PC USB, and cannot and will not be upgradable to a Multi-Console version.
3. If you prefer using the Xbox360 board when connecting to a PC, a regular Imp will make that easier for you. Using the 360 pad on a PC requires holding down three buttons (Short, Strong, RoundHouse) when using a Chimp, while the Imp used just the one button or slide switch, however you set it up.

Q: What about other consoles like PSX, Gamecube, and Xbox1 supported on the MC Cthulhu?
A: They are not and cannot be made to work on the Chimp.

Q: Will there be an MC Chimp in the future?
A: No. I simply can't. The pins that would normally go to the extra console cables are currently used to control the Imp chip present on the Chimp.

Q: How do I install the Chimp in my TE/SE FightStick?
A: Here is the current wiring diagram. Definitely post up in this thread if there are any questions or areas that are vague:
Yfrog Image : yfrog.com/5ychimpmadcatzp

Q: My X/Y axis moves when I hit a trigger button in 360 mode.
A: Known issue with pads using analog triggers requiring inversion. Please read:
http://shoryuken.com/f177/official-cthulhu-chimp-board-thread-mc-firmware-2-0-released-162026/index285.html#post9194306


Q: What should the button layout be?
A: This is rather important, so please pay close attention to this answer. The layout that I HIGHLY HIGHLY absolute must insist upon is the layout from the original MadCatz sticks:
For PS3:
[] /\  R1  L1
 X  O  R2  L2
For Xbox360:
X  Y  RB  LB
A  B  RT  LT
You can probably rig up things to use a different layout if you like, but they won't be supported.

Q: My 360 board requires the triggers to be inverted. What do I do?
A: On your 360 pad, remove the two trigger pots. Try to keep middle pad of the pots intact if you can; the side pads can be ignored or torn without care, but it'll be easiest if you can leave the middle pad in place. Connect the wire from 3K_Invert screw terminal to the middle pad of the right trigger, and the 4K_invert screw terminal to the middle pad of the left trigger. If the middle pads got torn from removing the pots, follow the trace to find another point to connect the wires.

Q: Can I use a ChimpSMD in a stick by itself?
A: Certainly. The only thing to keep in mind is that it will still try to go to 360 mode if you plug it in with Short, Strong, and Roundhouse held down. As long as you don't hold these buttons down when plugging it in, it will work just fine on PS3 and PC by itself without being dualmodded.

Q: I want to use the Xbox360 mode on a PC.
A: If you hold down the Short, Strong, and Roundhouse buttons (1K, 2P, 3K) when plugging it in, it will skip the autodetection and go straight to Xbox360 mode.
_____________________
Misc:
Q: What are the golden rules?
A: The two golden rules of dual pcb mods:
1. All pcb's must be common ground.
2. All pcb's must be powered at all times.

Q: My MadCatz 360 TE/SE fightstick occasionally has a problem where the RT and LT buttons will stop working. If I replug, they work for a while, but eventually go out again.
A: Known problem with 360 TE/SE boards, and happens whether it is dual modded or not. No known 100% fix. Suggest you rearrange buttons so you dont use RT or LT.
_____________________
Ordering:

If you're interested in ordering, please try ordering from one of our online resellers:

Focus Attack
Gremlin Solutions (UK)

If you can't find what you're looking for, or have other reasons to order from me directly, that's fine, but it really is preferred you go through a reseller when possible.

Q: How do I order?
A: Easiest way is through the Paypal shopping cart setup: http://www.godlikecontrols.com/order.html

Q: How long to ship?
A: Please allow 3 business days for packing and shipping out.

Q: How long will it take to arrive?
A: West Coast: 2-3 days after mailing. East Coast: 3-4 days after mailing. Rest of world: 2 weeks after mailing.
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Comments

  • CantoCanto www.yousefq8.com Joined: Posts: 1,546
    These are my opinions:

    1) As small as possible
    2 and for wiring qs) I think a lot of people are turned off by soldering in general and I think that terminals and places for connectors would be the best thing to do. Just plug up and play is the best thing that an average gamer would want to do. Buy your PCB, connect it and start playing..
    3) Daisy chaining
    4) see 2
    5) Around $50 sounds resonable (about the cost of a new generation controller).

    My main usage of one of these would be for PC, PSX (with ability to work with converters), Dreamcast, and xbox360.
  • Norris Arcade SticksNorris Arcade Sticks StickBldr Relocation Joined: Posts: 517
    Having worked with your products before, I'm sure that anything you create will be perfect. It is a testament to the community that there are people like you willing to spend your time and experience on projects like this. Awesome. My humble opinions are below.

    1) Small as possible (with holes for me to screw through for mounting) :wgrin:
    2) Screw terminals so a customer wont need a soldering iron. This will sell more units.
    3) Common ground for JLF
    4) USB connector for wider customer base
    5) $50

    Other) PS3 only would be fine, xbox would be a plus for all those games on the hardrive
    A buget option without screw terminals, no USB connector only available in quantities of 10 or more for a lower price would be nice.
    Thank You,

    Tim & Brie Norris
    www.norrisarcadesticks.com
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Keeping in mind that added screw terminals and a USB jack will add something like $10-$15 dollars to the cost of each board, do you honestly feel it would make that big of a difference?
  • Steve FSteve F Hidden ST Character Joined: Posts: 397
    1) Small and flat of course
    2) Screw terminals will definitely help a lot with people who cant or won't solder
    3) Common ground/Separate i'd say, in case they're piggybacking a non common ground pcb
    4) USB connector for sure
    5) $50 to $60 is reasonable for something like this .It'd cost more in time and parts to get all these controllers and wire and rewire anyway

    The 10-15 extra I think is balanced by the ease of use for the people.
    My Webcomic: http://steve-fuentes.livejournal.com
    Oh, and if you like my Avatar, RockCho made it.
  • Norris Arcade SticksNorris Arcade Sticks StickBldr Relocation Joined: Posts: 517
    plus ease of use means you could up the quantity scale significantly to lower the price a little bit.

    Disclaimer: I've got no idea about bout how much that stuff costs. :razz:
    Thank You,

    Tim & Brie Norris
    www.norrisarcadesticks.com
  • Big PocketsBig Pockets likes coffee Joined: Posts: 350
    1. Small is good but not thumbnail small. I want to be able to solder to the thing!
    2. Screw terminals are nice...and expensive! I would prefer through holes.
    3. Couple of ground points.
    4. Directly solder.
    5. I am looking for a cost effective alternative to buying controllers. I think if the most expensive part of the board is kept to the PIC and the PCB printing, it could be made rather cheaply. To compare its value to that of other controllers is faulty because you would need to buy those controllers for their cords anyway.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Serious viable pricing for some hypothetical small simple PCBs I think would be (before shipping):
    PS2 small PCB + cord: $25-$30
    PS3 small PCB + cord: $25-$40
    Xbox360 small PCB + cord: $25-$35
    PS2 + Xbox360 PCB + cord: $45-$75
    PS3 + Xbox360 PCB + cord: $45-$75
    USB Connector (installed): +$5-$10
    Terminal Strip (installed): +$5-$10

    I dunno what actual costs would be for producing these, but I think these prices would be along the lines of what people would be willing to pay.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Serious viable pricing for some hypothetical small simple PCBs I think would be (before shipping):
    PS2 small PCB + cord: $25-$30
    PS3 small PCB + cord: $25-$40
    Funny thing is, I think getting USB cables would likely be cheaper than getting PSX cables.
    Xbox360 small PCB + cord: $25-$35
    PS2 + Xbox360 PCB + cord: $45-$75
    PS3 + Xbox360 PCB + cord: $45-$75
    Heh, sadly, no. I have no way around the MS security, and the very BEST I might ever be able to do would require taking the security chip from a sacrifice controller. I'll make the board as easy I can to dual pcb with a common ground 360 board, but any 360 support built into the board is pretty much right out.
    USB Connector (installed): +$5-$10
    Terminal Strip (installed): +$5-$10

    I dunno what actual costs would be for producing these, but I think these prices would be along the lines of what people would be willing to pay.
    All of which are reasonable, except the 360 stuff. If the well funded Chinese and Korean grey market hasn't cracked it, no way in hell I can.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Heh, sadly, no. I have no way around the MS security, and the very BEST I might ever be able to do would require taking the security chip from a sacrifice controller. I'll make the board as easy I can to dual pcb with a common ground 360 board, but any 360 support built into the board is pretty much right out.

    Yeah, those ones are hypothetical. Maybe someday someone will come up with something that others can then copy. The strong security of the Xbox 360 controllers has given me a more negative view on the system.
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 748
    I think piggyback for two of the most popular console is also a down. Having to have excess room just to get support for a console would upset people. I think people would rather pull off a security chip from a sacrificial controller than trying to fit everything into their stick

    I know someone who would rather have screw-ins then being forced to solder. I prefer to insert a wire in and solder(just like em trigger buttons on any pcb, god those solder points really make everything easy). Also being able to use screw ins for piggyback may be a plus as well, but there's probably not enough room on the pcb to add in more screw-ins probably

    oh btw you don't have to buy the controller for the cords, i thought it was already mentioned that you can just grab extenstion cords. (and as a plus if you need a usb cord, and 360 piggyback you can just take the usb cord off of a madcatz(since you need a common ground controller)

    btw i would love to be able to get those small hrap2 pcbs. maybe it's possible to do a pcb that's like the 360 "lol empty pistol round" mod. In other words, a small pcb but you can switch out the PIC for different console choices.

    Edit: Actually in the end i would prefer a pcb that has support for all the consoles, like the current uPCB
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • crackbonecrackbone Balls. Joined: Posts: 662
    Alright, so the UPCB is awesome , but it seems a lot of people are turned off by it; usually some combination of cost, assembly, and/or dealing with the 15 pin connector. All of which I understand, but that's the price that has to be paid for level of utility.

    So, the question becomes, what do people want? I've been working with Ed Farias on making a smaller board specifically for PS3, with the possibility of working on other consoles as well. It will be a smaller set of consoles, definitely no Genesis or Jaguar. But a large portion of the consoles out there, such as NES, SNES, Saturn, Gamecube, Xbox, and Playstation, should definitely be doable. Xbox 360 is right out, but doing a dual PCB setup with a common ground Xbox360 pad is very doable.

    I guess my question is to everyone at this point. What would be the perfect PCB?
    1- Any preference on size? Board right now sits about 1.7"x2.7"
    2- How would you want it to be wired up? Through holes for soldering the wires to? Screw terminals?
    3- Do you want a separate ground point for each switch, so you can run two wires to each switch, or would you rather daisy chain the ground wires and connect it to a couple of ground points on the board?
    4- How do you want to connect the wires to the board? Directly solder the wires to spots on the board, or a USB jack on the board for a uncut USB wire to plug into? (Only applies to USB stuff; other console cables would have the be soldered directly to the board)
    5- How much are you willing to pay for such a beastie? Knowing you could make the board work with just about any combination of the above consoles (PS3 and PSX, or PS3, Xbox, PSX and Gamecube, whatever) as long as you brought your own cable.

    I'd like to get some feedback, and maybe see if I could sweettalk Chad into carrying them down the road so he'll be a nice one-stop shop for all your parts.

    Well, being your most troublesome customer :sad: here's my thoughts:

    1. The board size right now is pretty good. Smaller is always better but it's pretty petite right now - if I can fit it easily in an agetec case the size is not an issue. A shot of it next to something for scale would probably help people understand that.

    2. Screw terminals all the way. It may be more expensive but dealing with IDC connectors is a pain for the layman (it's not something you can pick up at radio shack and having to solder/wire in a specific order for the ribbon cable adds complexity). Through holes make it harder to remove/reconfigure, and you have to figure a lot of people are going to be very mediocre at soldering which makes lots of soldering points close to each other easy to screw up.

    3. Daisy chained, but that's personal preference.

    4. USB jack. Again, to widen the potential audience it needs to be as simple as possible.

    5. $60 is about as high as I'd go, but that's only because I don't have a big need for the older systems. If it did 360 natively I'd go higher (I know it's out of your control).
    Zandwich's PM to me: "Ur gay"
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    3- Do you want a separate ground point for each switch, so you can run two wires to each switch, or would you rather daisy chain the ground wires and connect it to a couple of ground points on the board?

    I probably should have commented on this earlier. :)

    There isnt a need to give each signal a ground slot. People can get their own strip, or daisy chain, or splice, or distribute the ground in a multitude of ways.

    But I do agree with Big Pockets that two ground connection points would be nice. Two smaller daisy chains are nicer than one huge one. Or having a place specific for a voltage ground is nice. If you could put the two grounds at opposing ends of the board without much trouble that would be nice too.

    This stuff reminds me, a 5V connection point is good too. I cannot say I am too familiar with doing LEDs for a joystick, but is there a way to make the PCB (if it isn't already this way) so it gives off enough electricity for multiple LEDs without having to install batteries?
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    I probably should have commented on this earlier. :)

    There isnt a need to give each signal a ground slot. People can get their own strip, or daisy chain, or splice, or distribute the ground in a multitude of ways.

    But I do agree with Big Pockets that two ground connection points would be nice. Two smaller daisy chains are nicer than one huge one. Or having a place specific for a voltage ground is nice. If you could put the two grounds at opposing ends of the board without much trouble that would be nice too.
    Board was tweaked last night to have the same number of connection points on both sides; it currently has 4 spots for connecting to ground that would go to screw terminals. One part goes 'VCC, up, down, left, right, ground' and are meant for the stick, although they are all connected.
    This stuff reminds me, a 5V connection point is good too. I cannot say I am too familiar with doing LEDs for a joystick, but is there a way to make the PCB (if it isn't already this way) so it gives off enough electricity for multiple LEDs without having to install batteries?
    A VCC line is already on the board to go to a screw terminal. As for the LEDs, that's up to the console providing the power, but most of them can, yes.
  • Norris Arcade SticksNorris Arcade Sticks StickBldr Relocation Joined: Posts: 517
    So you are already working on a prototype?

    A cheap, bare bones option would get mild but constant sales from the brazillions of stick builders these days.

    A more expensive, solderless option would sell like the hot cake.

    Would it be possible to sell the screw terminal strip and the usb plug seperate? And the solder skilled would simply connect where the terminal and plug would solder on?
    Thank You,

    Tim & Brie Norris
    www.norrisarcadesticks.com
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    So you are already working on a prototype?
    Of course :) A prototype on a piece of stripboard was made weeks ago; the initial layout for PCB fab was made about the same time. I made some revisions to it yesterday so the number of screw terminals on both sides would be the same, and place the USB connector, but its otherwise unchanged from the original design; boards made from the first design should arrive any day, but those are for Ed with a couple for me to test on.
    A cheap, bare bones option would get mild but constant sales from the brazillions of stick builders these days.

    A more expensive, solderless option would sell like the hot cake.
    The entire thing is 57 through hole solder points; another 26 through hole solder points if you include screw terminals and USB connector. Dead simple stuff. Because this will be new for me, I suspect I'll just get a small batch of boards and parts and end up doing the soldering myself until/unless there ends up being a big enough demand to get preassembled ones. There are over 200 solder points on a UPCB.

    The spots where the wires or screw terminals are to go are overly large spots, with 5mm between holes, so its already good for direct soldering or screw terminals.
    Would it be possible to sell the screw terminal strip and the usb plug seperate? And the solder skilled would simply connect where the terminal and plug would solder on?
    Solder skills for the board are stupid simple. As for making an option with USB jack and screw terminals, I think I'll do that. I think I'll have four things available:
    1- Board, already assembled, solder your own button wires and console cables to.
    2- Solderless option: same as above but with screw terminals and USB jack. No soldering required if you're wanting PS3/USB. Screw in the wires, plug in a USB cable, and go. (Just like the GameWiz board in Slagcoin's site he used in one of his example sticks.)
    3- Bare kit, assembly required, no jack or screw terminals.
    4- Solderless, with PSX cable already soldered in.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    I'm very excited to see what you come up with. I'd really like to some small PCBs meant for PSX, PS2, and/or PS3.

    You mention the GameWiz which is very similar to some made by Ultimarc. Things that bother me about them include bulkiness (do not need one made for two players), made for PC (might as well be a PS3 or 360 instead nowadays; even PSX or PS2 is better considering converters), and expense (should not cost as much as it does for how little it can do in a single player controller). But wiring and utilizing those things are extremely easy.

    If you could perhaps make it so the PCB could fit between the joystick and leftmost button in at least a 95mm-spaced layout, then maybe the USB connector could be placed facing out of one of the thin ends of the PCB, and a hole could be made in the front of the controller so the USB cable could be inserted and removed direct into and out of the PCB itself. (I think I need to make an image to show you what I mean exactly.)

    I'd definitely be interested in getting some PCBs like you are thinking of making even though I have a ton of controller PCBs sitting around from all the diagrams I've made (I'll be up to about 45 different controller PCB diagrams on my next update).
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Okay, I quickly hacked one of my other images to explain. Basically the PCB would be small enough to fit between the joystick and buttons in many layouts and have the connector facing the front of the controller. The layout of the PCB does not need to be the same as the image to achieve this; maybe the connector could be on the left side to center it better. And maybe the PCB could be narrow as to run lengthwise along the front of the controller with the connector facing out a long side. I'm not sure how appealing others would find this.

    pcb_diagram.png
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    That's kinda funny. Where you have the stick connected, and where you have the play buttons connected are IDENTICAL to what's already in. Start, select, the fourth kick and fourth punch buttons (optional of course, you dont have to use them) are on the same side as the stick connections on the USB end (upper right on your pic), and the Home/PSX button is on the side with the main play buttons closer to the USB connector (upper left on the pic).
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    That's kinda funny. Where you have the stick connected, and where you have the play buttons connected are IDENTICAL to what's already in. Start, select, the fourth kick and fourth punch buttons (optional of course, you dont have to use them) are on the same side as the stick connections on the USB end (upper right on your pic), and the Home/PSX button is on the side with the main play buttons closer to the USB connector (upper left on the pic).

    Just through those points together in a few minutes. :) Sounds good how you're putting it together.
  • ZankenZanken Joined: Posts: 278
    Was just feeling depressed about my pelican converter dying, and the hrap sitting in my closet drawer having a half soldered mess of wires from months before that I can't be bothered getting around to. Reading something like this sounds exciting.

    The only platforms that seem relevant being a fighter fan would be DC, PS2, PC, 360 and PS3.

    Given that the DC and 360 are not really viable, I'd be happy happy paying about $50 for a board with the solderless option you've supplied Toodles, that does PC/PS3 and PS2. I'm Australian, so shipping might end up being hefty for us, but a group of us in Melbourne would probably do a bulk order.

    We pay up to $60 extra to import sticks here, they aren't sold locally and we don't really have local stick makers, so the investment would be worth it for us.
    http://www.couchwarriors.org/
    Monthly Ranbats for Third Strike, Blazblue, Soul Calibur 4 and Street Fighter 4.
  • MayhemMayhem Mostly Harmless Joined: Posts: 577
    How would you want it to be wired up? Through holes for soldering the wires to? Screw terminals?
    Through-hole spots with 2.54 mm / 0.1" pitch would be perfect, that way people could either solder directly to the PCB or install whatever compatible header they can find in their local market (JST-NH, Molex KK, etc.).
    Once I start I cannot stop myself
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Through-hole spots with 2.54 mm / 0.1" pitch would be perfect,
    The spots for the button/stick wires to go area 5mm pitch, with a rather large drill hole and very large pad; that makes it perfect for the 5mm pitch screw terminals, and easier to solder than most of the pads Eagle gives me. I'll try it out when it gets here, but it wouldn't surprise me for the holes to take 22guage wire.
    that way people could either solder directly to the PCB or install whatever compatible header they can find in their local market (JST-NH, Molex KK, etc.).
    If the UPCB has taught me anything, its that while WE may have a stash of different connectors and headers in our bits boxes, the VAST majority of the potential customers don't, and anything dealing with them becomes expensive and overall pain in the ass. So I absolutely do NOT want to rely on the customer having anything more than a screwdriver for this. I'm seriously debating about picking up some #4 screws to include screws for mounting the board, just to try and be complete.

    Yes, I could have made the holes and spacing 100mil spacing, and that would have been a small boon for those who like having proper connectors, but compared to the larger 5mm pitch and pads that are almost a full 100mil across, I think the boon for those that need the least heartache is worth it.

    All of the connectors for buttons and power needed for a dual pcb setup were also routed to the end of the board opposite the USB connector; That should make it a bit more convienent for dual pcb setups, but most wont need it.
  • Norris Arcade SticksNorris Arcade Sticks StickBldr Relocation Joined: Posts: 517
    Will there be a spot on the pcb for a "home" button?
    Thank You,

    Tim & Brie Norris
    www.norrisarcadesticks.com
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    If the UPCB has taught me anything, its that while WE may have a stash of different connectors and headers in our bits boxes, the VAST majority of the potential customers don't, and anything dealing with them becomes expensive and overall pain in the ass.

    Yeah, when I think back to when I started planning a first controller, I didn't want to solder, to find a cord, to find mounting screws (I was looking at standoff screws), to understand how a PCB works in general. I just wanted to quickly get an easy PCB, some wire, some QDs, and a cutter/stripper/crimper and get the job done.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Will there be a spot on the pcb for a "home" button?
    Already is. Four directions, eight play buttons, start, select, home. If you only want the six play buttons, no problem, just dont use those. If you dont want the Home button and want Start and Select pressed together to be Home, there's a little solder jumper on the board you short with a little solder, or you can use a piece of wire and the screw terminals to connect Home to ground.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    I know its silly, but I get giddy every time I get a delivery. :woot: The initial boards for Ed came in, and this time they came in still panelized; the place takes your design and copy/pastes it to fill the size of the boards they have and process them. The divisions between boards are already scored on both sides, so *snap* and they're apart.

    panelye6.jpg

    The individual boards are SMALL, smaller than a business card, and a good amount smaller than a credit card. And the 5mm spaced holes and larger drill size work perfectly for the screw terminals I want to use.

    singlezz3.jpg

    Yes, I know I made a typo on the silkscreen. I hope Ed will forgive me.
    And a minor note I'm proud of; absolutely NO vias.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Those look pretty nice. I guess as you said in your first post, they are designed for the PS3, but tweakable to other systems. And they are 2.7"x1.7" which actually happens to be a good number:

    95mm (joystick spacing in many layouts) - 66mm/2 (large LS-40 body radius) - 36mm/2 (Sanwa nut radius) = 44mm = 1.73"

    But I guess they are not ready for fitting a steady connector at one end?

    I do really like the optional wiring for hitting the Home button using a combination of switches too.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    But I guess they are not ready for fitting a steady connector at one end?
    The fourth and fifth rows have been removed in my design and a USB connector put in their place. The USB connector will hang over the end of the board, so if someone wants to mount it like you described, they can. For those that don't get the USB connector and screw terminals, the USB cable can be soldered to those holes (I just got through enlarging them so it'll be easier.) directly, and still have three rows available for other cables.
  • Norris Arcade SticksNorris Arcade Sticks StickBldr Relocation Joined: Posts: 517
    I like the mounting holes. Thank you Toodles
    Thank You,

    Tim & Brie Norris
    www.norrisarcadesticks.com
  • godspugodspu Custom builder Joined: Posts: 194
    hi toodles, i'm relatively new here, but have been building sticks for SC for years. with the release of SC4 the demand for ps3/360 dual mods is insane. from what i understand, even though you can't directly implement 360 functionality, you can set up the pcb so i can connect my own 360 board and get dual functionality (ps3 comes with the pcb)?
    email me for custom joysticks and mods. please incluse handle

    godspu@godspu.com
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    hi toodles, i'm relatively new here, but have been building sticks for SC for years. with the release of SC4 the demand for ps3/360 dual mods is insane. from what i understand, even though you can't directly implement 360 functionality, you can set up the pcb so i can connect my own 360 board and get dual functionality (ps3 comes with the pcb)?
    Yup, assuming you're connecting it to a common ground wired pad like the MadCatz one we use a bunch around here. See the rows of unlabelled holes to the left of the quarter in the second picture? Those connection points go to all of the buttons and directions. so the wiring should be rather clean. You can use it in a dual or more PCB just like the VSHG. You can do a normal dual PCB setup, but you'd have two USB cables coming out, or you can use the DPDT switch method like CodyK's tutorial on virtuafighter.com does and have only one USB cable coming out the back.

    Dual PCB setups are covered bunches in other threads, like the '2 pcbs in one stick...possible?' thread, so please ask any questions about it you may have there, but this board is common ground, and has the holes on the end to make a dual PCB wiring job easier.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    As someone who wants to slap together a stick of my own at some point, I have to say that these boards you designed are awesome. They're what I've imagined I wanted over having to "hassle" with pad-hacking.

    Do you have any pricing estimates for the screw-connector version with either USB or PSX out?
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    As someone who wants to slap together a stick of my own at some point, I have to say that these boards you designed are awesome. They're what I've imagined I wanted over having to "hassle" with pad-hacking.

    Do you have any pricing estimates for the screw-connector version with either USB or PSX out?

    Not yet. The delay isn't the board layout or anything else. The main delay is I need to rewrite a bootloader so I can push out firmware updates in the future. Once I have that, I'll throw together the PS3 and PSX code and start taking orders, and work on improving the code (additional consoles and better PSX code). Anyone can update the firmware to get the new features.

    Im in the middle of studying for an important test, and the semester is starting up; I'm going to be in a bit of a timecrunch for a while, but I'll do my best as soon as I have a spare moment to work on the bootloader.
  • GameKyuubiGameKyuubi Joined: Posts: 193
    Honestly, I think making a second board would be spreading yourself a bit too thin. The whole point of the UPCB is to be as versatile as possible and as upgradeable as possible, and that creates a market. If another PCB is made just for 2-3 consoles, you may as well just hack a pair of controllers imo. The UPCB is SO much more for just a little more effort, it isn't worth it and it may distribute your market too thinly, making it not worthwhile for either of them to exist. And that would make me a sad panda.
  • ulovemikerochulovemikeroch Joined: Posts: 1,802
    Honestly, I think making a second board would be spreading yourself a bit too thin. The whole point of the UPCB is to be as versatile as possible and as upgradeable as possible, and that creates a market. If another PCB is made just for 2-3 consoles, you may as well just hack a pair of controllers imo. The UPCB is SO much more for just a little more effort, it isn't worth it and it may distribute your market too thinly, making it not worthwhile for either of them to exist. And that would make me a sad panda.
    He's not, you can still use this board for a wide range of consoles, if you read the post right above yours Toodles said he was gonna implement many consoles just like the last UPCB. Just don't expect some of the obscure consoles that might have been in the first UPCB.
    Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Honestly, I think making a second board would be spreading yourself a bit too thin.
    I can understand that, but I think there is nothing to worry about.

    1. Having another board project won't spread my think or dilute the effort that goes into this project (pretty sure to be called 'Cthulhu'. Multiple cords hanging out the back makes me think of Cthulhu's or Zoidberg's tentacles) or the UPCB. The code for the Cthulhu board mostly comes from the UPCB project and porting it over is fairly simple. The only code that isn't from the UPCB is the bootloader I'm tweaking. That work will help me make a standalone bootloader program for the UPCB that won't involve that damned pdfsusb.exe program that's scaring people with the 'unable to flash config' messages. Otherwise, its mostly moving over UPCB code.
    2. The goals of these projects are entirely different. To me, the UPCB is a controller version of MAME; Having the protocols written down in a tested and working set of open code and a way for someone to play on any console they want. The Cthulhu board is simply here to make installation of common desired sticks easy and cheap, and the silly goal of helping to pay for my tuition. UPCB is for the love, Cthulhu is for the money.
    3. Any progress on one is progress on the other. After the bootloader is done, my first priority is fixing PSX converter support, and that will show up on BOTH boards. After that will be Dreamcast, and the little daughter boards needed to get Dreamcast working; again, for BOTH boards. If I make it that far and still have my sanity, I'll be working on the Xbox360 controller security. And then Wii-mote connections. And then NES, SNES, and PSX Multi-taps. And then the Nuvon DVD player system. And then the Phillips CD-i. etc etc etc. Those that can be added to the little Cthulhu board will be, and all will be added to the UPCB.

    Only some time working on the bootloader is needed for the Cthulhu board, then every bit of progress on either board will be progress for BOTH boards.
  • codykcodyk 2,6 P+K+G Joined: Posts: 191
    So when you gonna get together with invzim and take jvs in on the joystick input pins ? ;)

    Seriously, though, best of luck on both projects, i'm sure i'll be down for buying a few more.
  • crimson4649crimson4649 Joined: Posts: 35
    wow.. just wow :D
    bin wanting a good ps3 PCB for so loong now. its like a wish come true :D

    keep up the good worrk Toodle.
  • EskerEsker 41236C Joined: Posts: 402
    Heh, my first thought upon seeing the board design was "I am SO glad I won't have to wave-solder those". Then I realised that it will of course all be done by hand....

    I like the look of it so far. Are those holes for SIP resistor packs I see?
    Scrub. I don't want no scrub.
    Scrub is a guy who can't get no wins from me.
    Mashing on his cheap-ass pad, getting really mad,
    Throwing a tantrum at me.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Rev 1.1 boards with spots for the USB jack are en route. I need to order parts so I'm taking orders now and will put up a better dedicated thread when they arrive and I can get pictures up, probably end of this week.

    Unassembled Cthulhu kit (no USB jack, no screw terminals): $20
    USB jack: $3
    Screw terminals: $8
    The complete 'I'm scared of soldering' ISOS Cthulhu board : Assembled and tested, with USB jack and screw terminals, completely solderless installation: $40
    Shipping is a flat $5.50 for priority; add $1 if you want delivery confirmation or insurance.
    USB cable: $4 each (5' plain white)

    The USB jack is a recommended for everyone; without it, you'll need to cut the USB cable and solder it to the board. Without the jack is cheaper of course, but it will be a better overall stick by adding the jack.
    I'm offering the USB cable has just as a service; if you really want the stick to pop, get your self either a good 3m colored USB cable like this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Go-Multi-Color-cable-Hi-Speed/dp/B000GLOI6U
    or for extra awesome, a USB cable with light up LEDs on both end:
    http://www.cablestogo.com/product_list.asp?cat_id=1515
    They're spendy and I just can't afford to try and stock them at this point.
    Paypal to marcus@marcuspost.com
    Let me know if there are any questions.

    Boards have arrived, preorder bonus no longer available.
  • StrangerStranger Fierce Dragon Joined: Posts: 315
    For me personally, I want PS2/PS3, XB, and PC. Though, I don't see you making anything for XB at all... I'm gonna have to get a UPCB am I not ?!
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    For me personally, I want PS2/PS3, XB, and PC. Though, I don't see you making anything for XB at all... I'm gonna have to get a UPCB am I not ?!
    The Cthulhu board will eventually support multiple consoles, but not yet. This is for a PS3/PC only version, and won't be upgradable without buying a new chip. If you want those features now, look into the UPCB. Those features wont be available in the Cthulhu for a while yet.
  • TaikiTaiki Fezzes are cool. Joined: Posts: 918
    Alright, so the UPCB is awesome , but it seems a lot of people are turned off by it; usually some combination of cost, assembly, and/or dealing with the 15 pin connector. All of which I understand, but that's the price that has to be paid for level of utility.

    So, the question becomes, what do people want? I've been working with Ed Farias on making a smaller board specifically for PS3, with the possibility of working on other consoles as well. It will be a smaller set of consoles, definitely no Genesis or Jaguar. But a large portion of the consoles out there, such as NES, SNES, Saturn, Gamecube, Xbox, and Playstation, should definitely be doable. Xbox 360 is right out, but doing a dual PCB setup with a common ground Xbox360 pad is very doable.

    I guess my question is to everyone at this point. What would be the perfect PCB?
    1- Any preference on size? Board right now sits about 1.7"x2.7"
    2- How would you want it to be wired up? Through holes for soldering the wires to? Screw terminals?
    3- Do you want a separate ground point for each switch, so you can run two wires to each switch, or would you rather daisy chain the ground wires and connect it to a couple of ground points on the board?
    4- How do you want to connect the wires to the board? Directly solder the wires to spots on the board, or a USB jack on the board for a uncut USB wire to plug into? (Only applies to USB stuff; other console cables would have the be soldered directly to the board)
    5- How much are you willing to pay for such a beastie? Knowing you could make the board work with just about any combination of the above consoles (PS3 and PSX, or PS3, Xbox, PSX and Gamecube, whatever) as long as you brought your own cable.

    I'd like to get some feedback, and maybe see if I could sweettalk Chad into carrying them down the road so he'll be a nice one-stop shop for all your parts.

    Since you're moving away from the UPCB design anyway, any thought of moving away from PICs? granted, they are cheap, but, a faster chip with more memory space would give you more breathing room. Also should open up the possibility for what should be the holy grail of PCBs, Dreamcast.

    I've been stuck in a malaise over the idea of building a universal joystick host for a crazy multiway adapter. Reverse UPCB, everything to USB or everything to raw pinouts. watching progress on this might give me some motivation to move my ass on that project.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Since you're moving away from the UPCB design anyway, any thought of moving away from PICs? granted, they are cheap, but, a faster chip with more memory space would give you more breathing room. Also should open up the possibility for what should be the holy grail of PCBs, Dreamcast.

    I've been stuck in a malaise over the idea of building a universal joystick host for a crazy multiway adapter. Reverse UPCB, everything to USB or everything to raw pinouts. watching progress on this might give me some motivation to move my ass on that project.
    Find me a through-hole capable microcontroller, with built in full speed USB tranceiver, that is significantly more powerful than the 18F4550, and I'll definitely consider it. In order to seriously get past the limitations of the 4550, I have to go surface mount, which drastically ups the difficulty of assembling, and the cost.

    Dreamcast will still happen, I just need time; with a 19 credit no-fluff courseload this semester, time is in very very short supply. You'll notice I got a CRAPTON of stuff tackled over summer break :)
  • EskerEsker 41236C Joined: Posts: 402
    Find me a through-hole capable microcontroller, with built in full speed USB tranceiver, that is significantly more powerful than the 18F4550, and I'll definitely consider it. In order to seriously get past the limitations of the 4550, I have to go surface mount, which drastically ups the difficulty of assembling, and the cost.

    Dreamcast will still happen, I just need time; with a 19 credit no-fluff courseload this semester, time is in very very short supply. You'll notice I got a CRAPTON of stuff tackled over summer break :)

    Any possibilities with TH-mounted sockets for PLCCs?
    Scrub. I don't want no scrub.
    Scrub is a guy who can't get no wins from me.
    Mashing on his cheap-ass pad, getting really mad,
    Throwing a tantrum at me.
  • crimson4649crimson4649 Joined: Posts: 35
    well that doest it. i will sell my TV tomorrow just so that i can but some PCB's from you :D
    will check with some other people here if they are intressed..
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Wow those got here fast. Boards arrived today. I need to place an order for the rest of the parts tonight, but hope to have these start shipping out by Friday.

    Here is the parts included in the bare kit. Remember kids, fewer parts == easier assembly. If you can hack a pad, you can assemble this easily:
    dsc03146smallwe0.jpg

    And the ISOS assembled board, along with obligatory quarter shot to show awesome density.
    dsc03169smallro1.jpg

    dsc03170smallfv7.jpg

    As you can see, I got an ISOS Cthulhu board ready to put in tomorrow's mail for anyone who wants it.
  • CantoCanto www.yousefq8.com Joined: Posts: 1,546
    This will play on what consoles for now? And what consoles in the future?

    I'm assuming PC/PS3 for right now? And to get a 360 in there you just have to wire it up to the holes that are next to the USB jack yes? And then it will all come out of one USB cable for either PS3 or 360?

    What about programing? You will supply updates and such through that PIC? Just plug into computer and download?

    And for the bare kit, all I gotta do is solder those other parts you give us onto the board? Seems easy and I can save $9!

    P.S. Awesome dude!!!!!!!!!!
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    " wrote:
    This will play on what consoles for now? And what consoles in the future?
    The Cthulhu board will eventually support multiple consoles, but not yet. This is for a PS3/PC only version, and won't be upgradable without buying a new chip. If you want those features now, look into the UPCB. Those features wont be available in the Cthulhu for a while yet.
    I'm assuming PC/PS3 for right now? And to get a 360 in there you just have to wire it up to the holes that are next to the USB jack yes? And then it will all come out of one USB cable for either PS3 or 360?
    1. Yes
    2. Close; its the grid of small holes on the side of the board opposite the USB connector.
    3. That depends on how you wire it. If you PS3&360 support, I'd recommend not getting the USB jack, and instead using the xbox360 USB cable that came with the pad, and wire the USB cable to a DPDT switch.
    What about programing? You will supply updates and such through that PIC? Just plug into computer and download?
    Not for this one; the PS3/PC code is not updatable. When a suitable bootloader is coded and multi-console support gets added, the multi-console boards will support code updates. But, for now, its not available and there is no ETA on when it will be.
    And for the bare kit, all I gotta do is solder those other parts you give us onto the board? Seems easy and I can save $9!

    P.S. Awesome dude!!!!!!!!!!
    If you want it to look just like the picture of the ISOS version, yup. The USB jack is recommended; the screw terminals are optional.
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,797
    Just a minor update: Parts should be arriving tomorrow or Saturday. I need to tweak the code a little bit, so kits should be going out in the mail Monday.
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