...So there's a hack for no tripping now.

24

Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm speechless at the idea that some of you would actually WANT to hack a game and then play it competitively. Haven't you done enough by turning off 80% of the game without real tournament testing?

    I think you're being a little hard on the smashers. In anything competitive, eliminating randomness is an extremely good thing, as it increases the chances of the better player winning. There are some things that are just obviously random and should not be allowed in tournaments, such as items.

    The thing about eliminating stages is that stages which provide too much hazard turn the game into player vs. stage instead of player vs. player, and should be eliminated to encourage competition. Similarly, stages which yield exactly one optimal, basic strategy (camping on Hyrule is a great example of this, in both Melee and Brawl) should be banned (of course, this is after testing and discussion, not because of one event) in order to encourage the level of play to develop.
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    Stages, items, that's fine. Remove some of those. I personally think it's warranted, and that discussion is for another time. Not this thread.

    But modding to remove tripping? Seriously, if modding your Wii becomes the tourney standard, I'll get rid of my SWF account and join right in the SWF hating. That's like modding 3rd Strike to make Yun's SA3 bar longer. Or modding MVC2 and making Cable's AHVB keep the upward momentum (or just have a lot of lag) after the super is finished. It's a fucking MECHANIC OF THE GAME (regardless of how bad it is). Deal with it or play something else.
  • KayinKayin rawr Joined: Posts: 2,115
    Deal with it or play something else.

    I think this is seriously all that needs to be said.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    It's nothing like your examples. Those things are all certain to happen, and have no randomness to them. Tripping is random.

    There's no analogy from removing tripping to removing an aspect of other fighters like Street Fighter and Marvel vs. Capcom, because those fighters are quite a bit better than Brawl. But think rationally about what tripping is. It's an uncontrollable mechanic that occurs randomly and puts one player in a winning position and another one in a losing position. It's sensible to WANT to remove it. I don't agree with how they are doing it, but I agree that, if the game wants to see a real tournament scene, it would be better without tripping.

    And don't worry. The SBR effectively decides what standard tournament play is, and, at worst, they'll say "if you have a modded Wii, please use it." They'd never be stupid enough to force the use of Ocarina as a tournament standard.
  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    I'm not even going to touch the items thing. It's clear that there is no convincing you on that.

    But tripping. Let's get into tripping.

    Contrary to popular belief, Sakurai didn't put in tripping because he wanted a party game or because he wanted everyone to share a good laugh. One of Sakurai's stated motivations for Brawl is that he wanted it to become a more air-centric game.

    You know the best way to avoid tripping? Stay in the air. It's a retarded way to make a ground game risky, but that is the only logical purpose it serves. You fight on the ground, you know there's a risk that you'll trip and screw up.

    Most of the characters' safest and strongest moves are air based. Not only that, but staying on the ground leaves you open to tripping and throwing. The latter of which is one of the most powerful attack options in the game.

    Sure, it is nice to remove it because it's random and I am all for doing so in the name of fun. But just saying, there's a reason for it and that reason is kind of the point of the game.
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  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Oh boy here comes the random BS again. All I will say is that ST has 'random' dizzy mechanics that can greatly alter the outlook of the game.

    Before anyone says "Oh but SFHD is taking it out!" yeah there's a big difference between a developer of a game altering it and some scrub ass people who just can't handle the fact that they might trip. Oh but it's random! That sure does make it so the best players rarely win right?
    Avatar by str[e]ak
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Everyone, I'm trying to discuss this intelligently, without insulting anyone. Let's remain calm, ok?
    You know the best way to avoid tripping? Stay in the air. It's a retarded way to make a ground game risky, but that is the only logical purpose it serves. You fight on the ground, you know there's a risk that you'll trip and screw up.

    You can't say you know why Sakurai threw in tripping. While it's possible he did it for the reason in quotes, it's just as possible that he did it to avoid competition, since he has gone on record saying that he does not like the notion of the winner coming out feeling good and the loser coming out feeling like he has no had fun.

    Now, why tripping exists isn't actually important. It's random, and if removing it is shown to have no negative consequences (in other words, it doesn't somehow alter the tier list), then the game is better without it.
    Oh boy here comes the random BS again. All I will say is that ST has 'random' dizzy mechanics that can greatly alter the outlook of the game.

    That mechanic is quite a bit different than tripping. It hardly affects your approach game or whether or not you lose for approaching correctly. Snakes correct approach is to f-tilt from maximum range, but if he trips, he hasn't done anything wrong and he still gets punished.
    Before anyone says "Oh but SFHD is taking it out!" yeah there's a big difference between a developer of a game altering it and some scrub ass people who just can't handle the fact that they might trip. Oh but it's random! That sure does make it so the best players rarely win right?

    I don't really see your point. Matches have been lost because of tripping, so the better players have lost from tripping. And it's not about whether or not the effect is negligible; no one disagrees that they can live without it. But why should they when they have the option to remove it? It negatively effects gameplay and can be removed without negatively effecting gameplay, so what is the problem with removing it, exactly? Going against the developers wishes? But competitive smash does that anyway.

    Everyone is aware that the code only eliminates random tripping, right? Things like Diddy Kong's bananas and Meta Knight's d-tilt still force tripping.
  • DanielRGTDanielRGT Owner of Ram Gay Treasures Joined: Posts: 637
    so who cares? if i bought a disc I'll do whatever the hell I damn well please and if nintendo has a problem with that they can go fuck themselves. People should play what they want. If someone can make a hack and popularize it such that it receives a large enough community that people are interested in playing it in tounies and do it all without drawing the attention of nintendo's legal department then they should do it.

    The problem I see here isn't that they're hacking the game, because you're right it's their own discs and they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

    The thing is, all the things they are hacking Brawl to do are simply just making SSBB into SSBM. If they don't want Brawl, why don't they just play Melee? Saying things like "They can't play with all the cool new characters" is horsecrap because I know they'd gladly give up the new characters for their so called "Superior Gameplay"

    And to top it all off, they say that they ARE the Smash community, yet they show such a high amount of disrespect for the game it's almost ironic.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    They're not turning it into Melee. They're eliminating an uncontrollable random element that negatively effects gameplay. Turning it into Melee would require actual hacking, and not silly AR codes.
    The thing is, all the things they are hacking Brawl to do

    The only thing that has the slightest chance of becoming accepted into the community is the no-tripping code. Please, don't try and make it seem like we're using several AR codes. The majority of people who want something other than no-tripping (like additional hit stun) are the people who don't like Brawl anyway.
  • HogoshaHogosha SHUT UP AND TAKE MY GEMS. Joined: Posts: 1,217
    The only thing that has the slightest chance of becoming accepted into the community is the no-tripping code.

    I still think it's a horrible idea. I wouldn't mind if the game was patched BY NINTENDO and tripping was removed. Wouldn't mind it at all. Heck, I think fighting games SHOULD be patched. I also think Nintendo shouldn't add characters at the last second without making an attempt at balancing them (Snake). Yes, Nintendo really dropped the ball with some of the things they did with SSBB. I mean, I hold that tripping is the WORST mechanic in ANY fighting game known to man. Even worse than the stupid guard meter in KOF Maximum Impact.

    With that said, I will be VERY disappointed with the SWF community if modding your system becomes the tourney standard. I'd be more disappointed if it was even allowed for tourneys. I shouldn't have to explain why as I think it's pretty obvious.
  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    In anything competitive, eliminating randomness is an extremely good thing, as it increases the chances of the better player winning.

    This is not only untrue, but also unnecessary. When the chance that the best player will win is already 99+%, you are grasping at straws to find a reason to please YOURSELF as a player (a player who realistically isnt 'protected' by anything that ensures the better player wins every time anyway).

    In my experience, I've seen about as many people actually punished for tripping as I have people who's trip saved them from something. Also, the amount of actual tripping you see as the skill of the players goes up gets less and less. Good players have already found ways to minimize how often this happens, and even if they are not talking about it, it is part of the a skillset you probably want if you are playing high level brawl.
    Stages, items, that's fine. Remove some of those. I personally think it's warranted, and that discussion is for another time. Not this thread.

    But modding to remove tripping? Seriously, if modding your Wii becomes the tourney standard, I'll get rid of my SWF account and join right in the SWF hating. That's like modding 3rd Strike to make Yun's SA3 bar longer. Or modding MVC2 and making Cable's AHVB keep the upward momentum (or just have a lot of lag) after the super is finished. It's a fucking MECHANIC OF THE GAME (regardless of how bad it is). Deal with it or play something else.

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  • Carbunkle FluxCarbunkle Flux Joined: Posts: 748
    You can't say you know why Sakurai threw in tripping. While it's possible he did it for the reason in quotes, it's just as possible that he did it to avoid competition, since he has gone on record saying that he does not like the notion of the winner coming out feeling good and the loser coming out feeling like he has no had fun.

    Now, why tripping exists isn't actually important. It's random, and if removing it is shown to have no negative consequences (in other words, it doesn't somehow alter the tier list), then the game is better without it.

    So? That doesn't draw any conclusion about why tripping was put in. It is, however, reasonable to deduce that tripping makes the ground game riskier. And Sakurai has also gone on record saying he wanted more of an aerial focus in Brawl.

    Really, theoretical semantics will go nowhere here. My point is that tripping still makes Brawl's ground game riskier and encourages more fighting in the air where you can't trip. While it is random when you're on the ground, improving and shifting more focus to your air game will nearly nullify any and all chance of tripping.

    Point: Like it or not, it's still a part of the game. If Sakurai patched Brawl to remove tripping, then it should become the standard, but a hack to remove tripping is little more than a house rule. House rules should not become competitive standards. That's how I feel about it.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I still think it's a horrible idea. I wouldn't mind if the game was patched BY NINTENDO and tripping was removed. Wouldn't mind it at all. Heck, I think fighting games SHOULD be patched. I also think Nintendo shouldn't add characters at the last second without making an attempt at balancing them (Snake). Yes, Nintendo really dropped the ball with some of the things they did with SSBB. I mean, I hold that tripping is the WORST mechanic in ANY fighting game known to man. Even worse than the stupid guard meter in KOF Maximum Impact.

    With that said, I will be VERY disappointed with the SWF community if modding your system becomes the tourney standard. I'd be more disappointed if it was even allowed for tourneys. I shouldn't have to explain why as I think it's pretty obvious.

    I've explained already that it is extremely unlikely that a Wii with Homebrew Channel installed will become the tournament standard. I hope they do not change the tournament standard to require Wiis with HBC, because that would be ridiculous. Similarly, allowing it is questionable, as johns can arise easily. If, for example, I play another player and lose, I can complain about how it was not on a no-trip setup. Until something effective that doesn't require HBC is invented, it will not become standard, and hopefully won't be allowed at major tournaments. If they do allow it, I can see it happening only for semi-finals and finals.
    This is not only untrue, but also unnecessary. When the chance that the best player will win is already 99+%, you are grasping at straws to find a reason to please YOURSELF as a player (a player who realistically isnt 'protected' by anything that ensures the better player wins every time anyway).

    You're just throwing percentages out there. You have no idea what the actual probability of a superior player beating an inferior one is. And while it's true that the effect of tripping isn't incredibly high, matches have still been lost because of tripping.
    In my experience, I've seen about as many people actually punished for tripping as I have people who's trip saved them from something. Also, the amount of actual tripping you see as the skill of the players goes up gets less and less. Good players have already found ways to minimize how often this happens, and even if they are not talking about it, it is part of the a skillset you probably want if you are playing high level brawl.

    The first thing that needs to be addressed is your opening statement in this paragraph. "In my experience" is not a tool worth arguing with. What you've seen does not constitute the entirety of the scene, so please try to avoid generalizations based on insufficient sample spaces.

    Now, supposing you're right, and that your chances of losing because of tripping are equal to your chances of winning because of tripping, then there still exists a random element that effects how you play! Really, is it fair to say "even though tripping can kill you, it can also save you from getting killed?" I don't think that makes it any better of a mechanic.

    I think that, realistically, we can't implement this no-tripping code. Wii save files are stored as a 128-bit hash, which means we can't really hack them to support AR codes. This means that an AR for the Wii, or HBC, are the only ways to implement the no-tripping code. Because of this, and the fact that it is unethical to require someone to void their warranty in order to make their copy of Brawl abide by tournament standards, it is unlikely that the no-tripping code will ever go into effect as a tournament standard.

    Still, it doesn't change the fact that Brawl without random tripping is superior (from a competitive standpoint, obviously) to Brawl with random tripping.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    SRK people are a funny bunch. :rofl:
  • Jon SlaytonJon Slayton Consistently Inconsistent Joined: Posts: 4,305
    Man you guys are serious over something I don't even think is possible. It's all theorycraft at this point, so unbunch them panties.
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  • KeitsKeits OneTrueGame.com Joined: Posts: 8,765 mod
    There are hundreds of highly competitive games with plenty of random elements in them. Fighters too.

    Run the game as is and you will see that the odds of a weaker player beating a stronger one are just that, less than 1%, just like in any other fighting game full of randomness. And thats just ONE match. Its 2 out of three, at worst, usually.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Regardless, where is the actual harm in using a no-tripping code?
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Regardless, where is the actual harm in using a no-tripping code?

    -Voiding my warranty just to get it in the game.
    -Catering the the smash whiners who quite literally use the word 'random' too damn much.
    -Making sure each tournament setup has this hack in order to make it fair for everyone (finals only is stupid).

    Do I need to continue? I can talk about how altering the game this early on is especially stupid. What if there is an technique that requires tripping to use? Really, what if something as strange as trip cancelling or wave tripping surfaces?
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  • ScampScamp Making Miracles! Joined: Posts: 1,003
    I don't see what all the fuss is about. People have been hacking games since...I have no idea when, actually. Maybe the 1980's?

    Is this going to become the tourney standard? I see no signs of that happening.

    Sure some people may run this at a tournament. But if you set up and organize a tourney you get to use whatever rules you want. Then people show up or they don't.
    I don't think this will ever change.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    woah woah woah tripping isn't the worst mechanic ever, like ppl said earlier its not really that big of a deal sure it can be annoying but just stay in the air. worst mechanic ever could be easy combo mode in MvC 1 though :D .

    Since I missed this whole debate cause I was out, I say I was wrong earlier and would prefer the game the way it is without the better hitstun and stuff, but as far as momentum goes I main ZSS her entire game is momentum the ability to keep your opponent in her range for the whole match and you nonstop attacking them is pretty insane.

    I have rarely been killed by tripping, and normally its when I was trying to do something stupid, in fact I have had tripping save opponents cause you are invulnerable at startup.

    Hacked games are not really tourny standard though.
  • HolyOrderChippHolyOrderChipp Unregistered User Joined: Posts: 94
    Deal with it or play something else.

    In fact, that's exactly what the modders are doing. They're advocating a different, modified game. Nothing wrong with that. Not even if they want it to become tournament standard. Who says we can't have many different kinds of Brawl tournies?
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  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    In fact, that's exactly what the modders are doing. They're advocating a different, modified game. Nothing wrong with that. Not even if they want it to become tournament standard. Who says we can't have many different kinds of Brawl tournies?

    ... amazing.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I am suprised there is this much QQing for modding a game especially since ST was modded how many times?
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    I am suprised there is this much QQing for modding a game especially since ST was modded how many times?

    By "modded" do you mean reiterations of the game that was released by capcom? Or do you mean setting the speed to arcade standards?
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  • The DudeThe Dude Joined: Posts: 72
    Umm Rainbow Edition, anyone? :confused:
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Umm Rainbow Edition, anyone? :confused:

    ...

    Rainbow Edition was done for shits and giggles, not for some delusional belief that it was to "improve" or "fix" the game.
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  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    Rainbow edition... the modded game that was shunned by the community? What a horrible example.
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  • The DudeThe Dude Joined: Posts: 72
    ...

    Rainbow Edition was done for shits and giggles, not for some delusional belief that it was to "improve" or "fix" the game.
    That's not what I claimed. :)
    For a hack it was quite successfull among scrubs and eventually forced Capcom to release HF.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Rainbow edition... the modded game that was shunned by the community? What a horrible example.

    I am pretty sure that modded Brawl is being mostly shunned, too. <_<

    Though I do remember SRK trying out Rainbow Edition just to find out that the game was more imbalanced than before. haha
  • CeirnianCeirnian Legendary Prosecutor Joined: Posts: 350
    I hope modded Brawl is shunned, but with that community It's really hard to tell.
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  • DanielRGTDanielRGT Owner of Ram Gay Treasures Joined: Posts: 637
    Doesn't look like it's being shunned atm as a lot of them are thanking the heavens about the mod ._.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Doesn't look like it's being shunned atm as a lot of them are thanking the heavens about the mod ._.

    You must have not been around when the first thread suggesting mods was made. It was flamed to oblivion. Probably most of the people praising the mod are Melee players who either a. don't play brawl competitively anymore b. play the game at tournies but only to have smash competition.

    The thing is that the Brawl community is different than the old Melee community for the most part. A
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    It seems like most of the complaint is some sort of irrational refusal to allow a game to be modded at all. While I agree that trying to implement the no-tripping code is a bad idea as it would be difficult and borderline unethical, I would hardly say there exists some implicit rule that nothing about a game's programming should be changed by anyone but developers. It seems like this hatred of the smash community only exists in the form of bigotry; as an irrational response to something people disagree with on no logical grounds.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It seems like most of the complaint is some sort of irrational refusal to allow a game to be modded at all. While I agree that trying to implement the no-tripping code is a bad idea as it would be difficult and borderline unethical, I would hardly say there exists some implicit rule that nothing about a game's programming should be changed by anyone but developers. It seems like this hatred of the smash community only exists in the form of bigotry; as an irrational response to something people disagree with on no logical grounds.

    No. I don't think anyone gives a damn about someone screwing around with game code. In fact, a lot of us, myself included, sees shit like that as neat. However, when you step from fooling around to people pushing to get it to be the tournament standard is where we are all disgusted by it. Knowing the unwashed masses of the SWF community, the masses will fall behind it because it "eliminates the random", once the method is made simple enough (which it seems to be fairly easy as it is). The more reasonable people there will lol, but then again, the more reasonable people there also accept that items play is legit, just not their preference.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I hope modded Brawl is shunned, but with that community It's really hard to tell.

    don't worry, Im shunning the tripping mod and most of my friends are of the same opinion, cause it would require all the wii's to void warranty for the mod at all the tourneys plus like stated above how often does tripping kill you and try the next time you trip to see if it messed up your opponent it happens.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    No. I don't think anyone gives a damn about someone screwing around with game code. In fact, a lot of us, myself included, sees shit like that as neat. However, when you step from fooling around to people pushing to get it to be the tournament standard is where we are all disgusted by it. Knowing the unwashed masses of the SWF community, the masses will fall behind it because it "eliminates the random", once the method is made simple enough (which it seems to be fairly easy as it is). The more reasonable people there will lol, but then again, the more reasonable people there also accept that items play is legit, just not their preference.

    Again, why are you so disgusted by it being pushed as a standard? It seems almost like you hate it for no reason; again, it's bigotry.

    And really, isn't it more reasonable to want to eliminate an aspect as terrible as tripping?

    And I don't see it being pushed as a standard, and I strongly doubt it will be. But supposing it does, you haven't given any reasoning (and I mean logical justification, not something that boils down to an irrational distaste) for which modded play is so "disgusting."
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Again, why are you so disgusted by it being pushed as a standard? It seems almost like you hate it for no reason; again, it's bigotry.

    And really, isn't it more reasonable to want to eliminate an aspect as terrible as tripping?

    And I don't see it being pushed as a standard, and I strongly doubt it will be. But supposing it does, you haven't given any reasoning (and I mean logical justification, not something that boils down to an irrational distaste) for which modded play is so "disgusting."

    ....

    This is a key reason for the disconnect between (most) Smashers and other competitive gamers. In almost every case, we either accept the game as it has been given to us, or deem it not worth the time. In the rare cases there's a simple solution to our problems (IE ST Akuma), we all agree to disallow it. However, hacking the game in order to make it what we want is FAR from our beliefs in competitive gaming. If the game requires the very code to be altered in order to make it competitive in our eyes, we just don't bother with the game at all. There's a ton of other games that have been made and are being made that will satisify us.

    Meanwhile, we have a group that jumped in on their first competitive game 3-5 years ago, with all the work of deciding how it should be played done well before they did. All they know is this game, so when something new comes their way, all they want to do is make sure it's as close to the way it was as possible, some regardless of how simple it may be. This, to us, is crazy. If the game has such a severe problem that you have to hack the game to remove it... why the hell are you playing it? There's a game you already know and love as it is. Either appreciate the game for what it is, or move to another one. Plain and simple.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ....

    This is a key reason for the disconnect between (most) Smashers and other competitive gamers. In almost every case, we either accept the game as it has been given to us, or deem it not worth the time. In the rare cases there's a simple solution to our problems (IE ST Akuma), we all agree to disallow it. However, hacking the game in order to make it what we want is FAR from our beliefs in competitive gaming. If the game requires the very code to be altered in order to make it competitive in our eyes, we just don't bother with the game at all. There's a ton of other games that have been made and are being made that will satisify us.

    Again, this notion is almost archaic. It's a "love it or leave it" style of thinking. If there is a game which we enjoy competitively, and it is unique and good for competition, but has one ridiculous random mechanic, we're not going to leave it because of that one mechanic. We'll either continue playing, or see what we can do to eliminate the mechanic.

    You also did not answer my question. You responded with exactly what I asked you NOT to respond with; an irrational distaste. Please, give logical reasoning for why we should not mod a game in order to improve it. Notice that modding Brawl's code to eliminate tripping is hardly a huge change, and so it's not going to have a strong positive or negative effect.
    Meanwhile, we have a group that jumped in on their first competitive game 3-5 years ago, with all the work of deciding how it should be played done well before they did. All they know is this game, so when something new comes their way, all they want to do is make sure it's as close to the way it was as possible, some regardless of how simple it may be. This, to us, is crazy. If the game has such a severe problem that you have to hack the game to remove it... why the hell are you playing it? There's a game you already know and love as it is. Either appreciate the game for what it is, or move to another one. Plain and simple.

    No one is trying to change it to Melee. They're not trying to add hit stun, improve the dash dance game, throw in a directional air dodge, allow for L-Canceling, or anything of the sort. They're trying to eliminate an aspect of the game that is random and not beneficial.

    Again, the problem is not so severe that we MUST hack it. Tripping was discovered and presumed random before Brawl's American release, but it was still played competitively. Clearly, we can live with it. But why should we have to settle for something like this? And why are you being so closed minded? We're not trying to balance the game or make it likes its predecessor in any sense other than the game's probability of a better player defeating a worse one. And tripping decreases that probability.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Again, this notion is almost archaic. It's a "love it or leave it" style of thinking. If there is a game which we enjoy competitively, and it is unique and good for competition, but has one ridiculous random mechanic, we're not going to leave it because of that one mechanic. We'll either continue playing, or see what we can do to eliminate the mechanic.

    ...

    You owe me $2.58. The exchange rate is a penny per brain cell of mine you just killed.
    You also did not answer my question. You responded with exactly what I asked you NOT to respond with; an irrational distaste. Please, give logical reasoning for why we should not mod a game in order to improve it. Notice that modding Brawl's code to eliminate tripping is hardly a huge change, and so it's not going to have a strong positive or negative effect.

    Clearly you're definition of irrational means "whatever disagrees with me". The idea of "improving" is asinine. The fact that you're going through such effort to eliminate something that is not even a big deal shows just how much you must not like this game for what it is. It seems to me like you'd be better off hacking Brawl characters into Melee than to change Brawl to be as close as you feasibly can to make it more like Melee.

    No one is trying to change it to Melee. They're not trying to add hit stun, improve the dash dance game, throw in a directional air dodge, allow for L-Canceling, or anything of the sort. They're trying to eliminate an aspect of the game that is random and not beneficial.

    This is true... for now. Removing tripping was an easy step, easily found, and easily hackable (as easy as hacking gets, anyway). Give them time and they'll continue to go down that slippery slope 'til they have everything short of directional air-dodge and l-cancelling back, then they can truly circlejerk themselves to Melee 2.0.
    Again, the problem is not so severe that we MUST hack it. Tripping was discovered and presumed random before Brawl's American release, but it was still played competitively. Clearly, we can live with it. But why should we have to settle for something like this? And why are you being so closed minded? We're not trying to balance the game or make it likes its predecessor in any sense other than the game's probability of a better player defeating a worse one. And tripping decreases that probability.

    So... you remove anything and everything you can that is random, despite how much they add to the game (items, stages) or how trivial they can be (tripping) all because they're random without giving them their fair shake in a new game to see just how much they impact it, shun and flame anyone who believes the contrary, boycott tourneys who attempt to do the contrary... and I am the closed minded one? Amazing...
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ...

    You owe me $2.58. The exchange rate is a penny per brain cell of mine you just killed.

    I can appeal to ridicule too. Perhaps the loss of brain cells has reduced your ability to avoid fallacious logic?
    Clearly you're definition of irrational means "whatever disagrees with me". The idea of "improving" is asinine. The fact that you're going through such effort to eliminate something that is not even a big deal shows just how much you must not like this game for what it is. It seems to me like you'd be better off hacking Brawl characters into Melee than to change Brawl to be as close as you feasibly can to make it more like Melee.

    You just ignored my entire point about how we're not trying to make it into Melee. Whether or not it's a "big deal" is also a matter of opinion. I personally would not want the difference between $1000 1st place and $600 2nd place to have any chance of being determined by luck.
    This is true... for now. Removing tripping was an easy step, easily found, and easily hackable (as easy as hacking gets, anyway). Give them time and they'll continue to go down that slippery slope 'til they have everything short of directional air-dodge and l-cancelling back, then they can truly circlejerk themselves to Melee 2.0.

    The no-tripping code is an AR code. It's incredibly unlikely that there exist the possibility of codes that would allow for directional air-dodging and L-Canceling. Most of the current SWF community hates Melee anyway, as they are all "Brawl n00bs" who only play the game because of its ridiculous hype. You're speculating very childishly, simply stating that something will happen, with no proof, because it happening would support your argument.
    So... you remove anything and everything you can that is random, despite how much they add to the game (items, stages) or how trivial they can be (tripping) all because they're random without giving them their fair shake in a new game to see just how much they impact it, shun and flame anyone who believes the contrary, boycott tourneys who attempt to do the contrary... and I am the closed minded one? Amazing...

    Eliminating randomness is hardly a harmful idea. It's beneficial when there is money on the line, as I don't think people are as inclined to play a game for money when there is a noticeable aspect of luck present.

    Whether or not tripping is "trivial" is subjective. Again, I find tripping into Snake's forward smash to be incredibly annoying and silly, and so it makes sense to remove it. It's been shown to be a useless mechanic that does nothing but actually worsen the game. Why shouldn't we remove it, then, if it serves no purpose but a negative one?

    I've also hardly shunned or flamed anyone. I've been quite civil so far. And the tournament boycott was because EVO essentially spat in the face of SWF, not even asking for our input before hosting the tournament. That, and item play has been shown to lead to a stale meta-game with quite a bit more luck involved than play without items.

    It's not closed-mindedness when we've shown, through logic, as well as empirically, that items worsen competitive smash.
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