Dhalsim's Matchups

UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney??Joined: Posts: 6,053
Description

This thread is a legacy thread that was started before the release of SSF4. Much of the information early on is old and inaccurate. This thread is best used as a continual dialogue about various match-ups and the managers of the specific match-up threads should update their posts with the validated information left here.

The [thread="256942"]Dhalsim Forum Table of Contents Thread[/thread] hosts an index of all individual character match-up threads.

Original Post

The original post is quoted by Cole below and it's pretty wrong and useless anyway, so I'm just gonna delete it and put up new stuff. I'll update this section with what I think about the matchups and with what anyone else thinks about the matchups if they're willing to post their thoughts up. I'm also gonna start a little character-specific section here, with like mini talks about strategies, links to posts with talks about strategies, little random character-specific pokes, gripes, etc. As always, if you want to post up with some good info, I'll be more than happy to put it up here.



Abel


Akuma


Blanka


Boxer/Balrog


Chun


Claw/Vega


Dhalsim


Dictator/Bison


Fuerte


Guile


Honda


Ken


Rufus


Ryu


Sagat


Viper


Zangief
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Comments

  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    So what do you guys think about Dhalsim's matchups?

    Here's a quick rundown on my opinions in matchups I've played a lot (note: this is how I've actually done in practice, not necessarily how I think things should go):

    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 5-5
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 2-8
    Guile: 4-6
    Claw: 6-4
    Sagat: 3-7
    Abel: 6-4
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 7-3

    I've had more success with Dhalsim in some matchups than I've had with Zangief, notably against Blanka and Rufus. In time, I think I might eventually even go with Sim instead of Gief against Sagat.


    Are you seriously having that much trouble with Ryu/ken? From my expiernce, it be opposite of yours I think its 7/3 vs ryu/ken but 5/5 Akuma. Akuma can actually get in. Ryu/ken...what are they going to do? Jump heheh they cant throw fireballs, forward slide at any distance. They have to dash in at u which u can poke the hell out of them. If they jump its GG, back strong, back rh, rh slide, jump back strong, jump back fierce so many options for sim to hit them. CLEAN

    Just my two cents on how my matches are.

    What do u do vs viper currently that gives u such an advantage?

    Cole
    -Dangerous Crew-

    Mobbin the SF and Tekken scene like
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    This is just how I've done in practice, and my competition I'm sure has a big effect on the numbers I put up. For example, my Ryu opponents are Evil Elvis, Gootecks, and Valle.

    The reason I go even with Ryu/Ken is probably just the damage differential. I knock Ryu three-four times, he hits me with a shoryu and gets a crossup and I often end up pretty basted. Also Sim's limb hitboxes aren't that great, and Ryu/Ken's crouching strong and crouching fierce are really good at counterpoking my limbs for more damage. I don't see why they can't throw fireballs; slide gets under fireballs, but they should be fine with that because slide moves you forward, aka out of whatever positioning you had before and closer to them (which is what they want), and in any case you're not hurting them for it. Maybe I could list this as 6-4 for Sim, but 7-3 is too much in my opinion.

    I don't think Akuma is good enough at getting in that it overcomes the huge damage he takes; he's one of the few characters who can't afford to take damage on the way in. Also, it's really risky for Akuma to be throwing air fireballs; if he does it from a distance, Sim can just teleport up and punish him, and if he does it closer, Sim can short/forward slide under and punish him. And Akuma's demon flip shenanigans are basically beaten by regular ol' back+strong and slides. Basically, I feel Akuma has to stick mostly to what Ryu/Ken do, except he takes way more damage in the process. The only area he's better in is in wakeup games, where his teleport can get him out of any ultra setup (you can punish him for it, but not with anything nearly as damaging as ultra). But maybe I'm overestimating Sim in this matchup.

    About Viper, I just don't think Viper has very good answers for Sim's limbs. Her normals don't make for good counterpoking and her regular jump-ins lose to Sim's antiairs/slides/air attacks, and while her air flame kick is a good meaty crossup, Sim can just slide under it for free if it's not meaty and can teleport away if it is. And like Akuma, if Sim hits her, she feels it, and that means she has to play it safe. She can't really deal damage unless she's up close, but it's kinda hard for her to get up close without taking serious damage. Only reason I don't list this as more of a win for Sim is that he can't throw fireballs for fear of Viper just doing seismo on reaction.

    Anyway I already disagree with some of the numbers I put up. Edited:

    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 5-5
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 2-8
    Guile: 3-7
    Claw: 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
    Sagat: 3-7
    Abel: 5-5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 7-3


    What do you think about the various matchups, win-loss ratio sort of thing?
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  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    This is just how I've done in practice, and my competition I'm sure has a big effect on the numbers I put up. For example, my Ryu opponents are Evil Elvis, Gootecks, and Valle.


    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 5-5
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 2-8
    Guile: 3-7
    Claw: 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
    Sagat: 3-7
    Abel: 5-5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 7-3


    What do you think about the various matchups, win-loss ratio sort of thing?

    Heh dirty valle shanigans, ya u are losing to valle, not ryu lol. I guess I dont fear them crossing me up. If u have super, u can stand just out of range, see fireball, slide and link super (timing crucial but not that difficult) Match just feels like ST to me, ryu basically has to do nothing and take risks to build meter. Cause the only way he will get in is with ex somthing or firebal FC dash. Cant be predictable with limbs, u know ryu is trying to counter but its completely to your advantage. I switch from low strong and use stand fierce sparringly cause that is what they try to see and hit. Do it just enough to make them think u are doign it all day.

    Gief, that match up is ST style too...but imagine a perfect ST gief, if sim makes one mistake, im dead (this is the truth). So in SF4...its basically easier for gief to do that cause he doesnt have to be perfect, he just spams big risk moves. Its a very slow match but the scariest thing he can do is jump in and do nothing. With that i always jump back strong...rarely i try to anti air him with a ground move if he is jumping mid range. If he is over my head, u can use B-strong to hit meaty splash (which is crazy lol) Also, u know nobody can ever cross sim up? U get free FULL SCREEN port if timed good. Since the turn around happens so fast in SF4, u watch their character, the second there body is on the other side, u do kick port and bam across the screen.

    Example: u are getting up, opponent on right side, jumps to left...second he is on other side, u do port to the right (towards their orginal position). now u are across the screen. Its awesome

    Lol and the fucking BEST THING EVER i have found...is dhalsim can do d/f,d/f wait....u/f ..tap PPP (instant teleport) =)

    Its AMAZING. U have so much time to do it, i used to have trouble geting low teleport cause i couldnt get it low enough.....now i get it so low fuckin jump fierce doesnt even fully come out and im on the ground already hahaha

    Ill post more in a bit about my ideas on some matches, gotta get back to work hehe


    Cole
    -Dangerous Crew-

    Mobbin the SF and Tekken scene like
    Gai Sensai: DYNAMIC ENTREE!!!!!
    *sparkle on da Fro* =D

    "Chuck Norris and Mr. T walked into a bar. The bar was instantly destroyed, as that level of awesome cannot be contained in one building"
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I'll try teleport out against crossups more, so far it hasn't worked as well I'd like.

    I played Gief in ST and I'm playing Gief and Sim in SF4, and from both sides of the matchup I think it's very different from how it was in ST. In ST, Gief can't go into tank mode because just a few fierce/roundhouse limbs can dizzy him and that leads to pretty beefy yoga flame damage, and now Gief has lost half his health and is back to bad positioning. Sim's normals have a bunch of hitboxes, he has tools for just about everything Gief has, fireball goes the whole screen, and Gief doesn't have a great way to get past it.

    But in this game Gief can get hit by 6 fierces and not get dizzied, and even 6 fierces doesn't take off half life. Lariat beats virtually everything Sim has on startup (even ultra), ex green hand gets him in really easily, and any knockdown leads to a very dangerous situation for Sim. Fireball dissipates and Gief has better ways around it. Gief doesn't have to cross Sim up, he can just do short knees safe jump (safe from super/ultra). Gief backs Sim up into the corner pretty easily, and that's a hard place for Sim to be.

    In the Gief thread, a Toronto Gief player lists the Gief-Sim matchup as 10-0. I think that's too high, but I definitely think Sim loses big time.
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  • DuckyDucky CLOSE YO MOUF, SON Joined: Posts: 2,910
    I haven't had much trouble taking down Viper with Dhalsim.

    Once you close the distance so you can start pegging her with your limbs, there isn't much she can do about it. If you don't close the distance, she is free to jump around with the flame kicks and try to hit you with a random ex ground pound. Throw out a fire and if she doesn't jump over it, you pretty much have your ticket to close the gap and start throwing limbs at her.

    A cornered Viper doesn't have too many options once the limbs start flying... s. forward and s. roundhouse take her out of the air before she can come at you, s. strong, yoga fire, and s.hp keep her in the corner.

    I haven't played too many Vipers, but once I get them in the corner there hasn't been much they could do to retaliate with if I didn't get tagged by a random ex ground pound. As long as I controlled the spacing and didn't let her start the flame kick mixups, it was easy for me to win. Wasn't the fastest match, but it wasn't too difficult.
    Marching through your continents, conquering your provinces.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I just have no idea what to do against Gief.

    A) Attacking from the air is not an option. It's not worth the risk of eating a lariat, which beats all of Sim's air attacks.

    B) Anti-airing Zangief is very hard. His jumping fierce, fierce splash, short knees, forward, and roundhouse beat or trade with all of my antiairs, including roundhouse, forward, back+roundhouse, slides, jump back fierce, and jump back strong. His fierce, fierce splash, and roundhouse beat or trade with roundhouse and forward from various distances, his fierce, forward, and roundhouse beat or trade with back+roundhouse, his short kness and forward beat slides, and his fierce and roundhouse beat jump back fierce and strong. My most consistent antiairs are slides, but if he does knees or forward, I lose, and I really don't want to be next to Gief. And even if I guess right several times in a row and he guesses right once, that once is much more dangerous to me than my several are to him.

    C) Moving backwards and being close make me lose, but I have to move backward or risk getting close. Hitting him (like with slide) and teleporting backward, jumping backward, and walking backward all put you closer to the corner, and once Zangief corners Sim, Sim loses. Being close to Gief makes Sim lose because most of Sim's attacks leave him at a frame disadvantage that leads to spd, and most of his moves have enough startup that Gief can spd them. So what does Sim have to do when Gief gets close? Move backward.

    Once Sim is cornered, he's totally done. SPD all moves, lariat all jumps immediately on reaction, lariat all teleports immediately on reaction, lariat through ultra and super, etc. Sim effectively has no way out.

    D) Sim has no life and does no damage, and Gief has a lot of life and does a lot of damage. It takes a crapload of hits by Sim to hurt Zangief and only a few hits by Gief to hurt Sim. As a result, Gief can go into tank mode, and even if he gets hit by yoga fire or limbs a few times, all he needs to win is to get in once, and he can afford to get hit several times to do that.


    Next time I play a Gief player I'm going to try down-back jab and fierce and down-toward fierce and see what happens, maybe those are the secret awesome antiairs that could make this matchup reasonable.

    I picked Sim v Gief in a tourney yesterday and lost for free, and later I used Gief against a Sim player and beat him for free. That Japanese matchup chart lists this as only 6-4 for Gief, but, at least right now, I just don't see it.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Update:

    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 5-5
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 2-8
    Guile: 4-6
    Honda: 6-4
    Claw: 4-6
    Sagat: 3-7
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 5-5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 5-5
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    So, more about Sim v Gief.

    Jumping strong, standing roundhouse, and standing strong beat lariat from max range, even on lariat's startup. And obviously all low attacks beat punch lariat.

    I'm still having real problems antiairing him, though. He can jump in a way that puts him out of range of all of my fast antiairs but leaves him in spd range, which obviously leads to me getting hurt. I can do roundhouse slide to knock him down as he lands, but if I mess it up, it's retardedly unsafe on block and Gief can do whatever he wants.

    There's also a very dangerous range where I can't do yoga fire because Gief will just do ex green hand on reaction, and throwing out pokes is kinda risky because he might guess ex green hand and knock me down and get free wakeup games on me. Chances are he won't guess right, but the expected benefit for him of psychically green handing my pokes is pretty high and the expected cost of me throwing out pokes is also pretty high, so it's a dangerous situation. And I don't want to back up too much, because, as above, I don't want to get cornered. Best thing to do is an occasional jump-back strong or to just sit there blocking waiting for him to do something.

    You can punish a blocked ex green hand with down-back fierce to super or back+forward xx flame xx super.
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  • SabinSabin Arcana 2 on PS2 SUX Joined: Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah this match is still hard as fuck. (Gief vs sim). Jumping (far) strong is your friend in this matchup though if you want to try to air to air him. JUst does piss poor damage :/
    SRK should stand for Stupid Retarded Kids.
    Originally Posted by Alidfe
    Arturo Sanchez won't be the best Dhalsim until he moves to Kyoto and changes his name to Kazuhiko Nitsuma.
  • Evil RahsaanEvil Rahsaan Top 5 dead or alive Joined: Posts: 454
    Rufus and bison eats sims food also.
    Marvel 3 time!! i'm about this money
  • SabinSabin Arcana 2 on PS2 SUX Joined: Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah, Rufus gives sim a hard time in my experience, divekicks are hard for him to antiair unless youre using EX upflame.

    his J rh is too good against sim as well since sim takes to the air a hell of a lot.

    Bison, wh are you having trouble in this matchup? I havent had much trouble with it myself. Sims slide game neutralizes bison stomp/psycho fake trickery, and when ou get him knocked down its ahrd for him to get away from yoga teleport/fb mixups. his stand RH is good against sim though.

    Still dont know what to do against Sagat though.
    SRK should stand for Stupid Retarded Kids.
    Originally Posted by Alidfe
    Arturo Sanchez won't be the best Dhalsim until he moves to Kyoto and changes his name to Kazuhiko Nitsuma.
  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    I guess I don't see how you guys are having so much trouble with gief. I think you guys are just panicking when he gets close and putting yourself into bad situations. Then you try to rely on teleport and he appears right in front of gief and SPD time. You can sit there and mash fierce 100 times, on 101 you hesitate and he lariets, free hit.

    Like i said before the match is switched. It is dhalsim who has to play patient, watch for openings and not make mistakes where gief can just spam and once he gets lucky he can get some good dmg in. I play this match just like ST.

    Im sure another problem u are having are giefs that like to jump in and do nothing, u have no answer for it correct? Ground normals whiff, then u get SPD. Heh this is one trick I use, but def not something u should do more than once or twice. But if I go to anti air him and he does nothing, my defualt move is to do D+PPP, if he lands and SPD (which he will) it will whiff and u get free throw or super, or whatever out of D+PPP.

    Also, shit just keep putting yourself into the corner, the second he thinks u have him cornered. Wait for that jump, purposly slide with forward under him so he crosses you up faster, and teleport in the opposite direction and u will be back across the screen. Rinse repeat standing fierce bait, throw fireballs from full screen so he cant do shit and DONT be predictable.

    Beat Zangief in my sleep =P he IS NOT TOP TIER!!! People are just so fuckin scared when they play they dont notice themselvs making 100 mistakes and letting gief get in. Its still just gief, he has to take BIG RISKS for BIG REWARD.

    Cole
    -Dangerous Crew-

    Mobbin the SF and Tekken scene like
    Gai Sensai: DYNAMIC ENTREE!!!!!
    *sparkle on da Fro* =D

    "Chuck Norris and Mr. T walked into a bar. The bar was instantly destroyed, as that level of awesome cannot be contained in one building"
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 5-5
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 3-7
    Guile: 4-6
    Honda: 6-4
    Claw: 4-6
    Sagat: 3-7
    Dictator: 5-5
    Abel: 5-5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 5-5


    The Gief matchup is getting more manageable, but it's still a baste. I'm not panicking when he gets in, whatever, he's probably going to deal damage, and I don't teleport in front of him. The problem is just that he's so good at getting in.
    Its still just gief, he has to take BIG RISKS for BIG REWARD.
    What big risks does he have to take?
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  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    He has to jump and he has to do green hand as well as Lariet. All risky moves that if the Sim is aware and on point, he can continouly punish. He cant just walk forward cause u will stand fierce him in the face. Which eventually will force him to do one of the above moves. That is the whole match in a nut shell. He is trying to guess right and you are trying to not be so obvious so u can keep him doing those extreme moves and hit him for free. Problem is, your dmg is a bit low so you have to keep it up longer. Where as if he gets lucky once, u are at a disadvantage.

    Also, I build meter and save super, i hardly ever use EX with sim cause his super is another defense for me. He jumps, bam. Done.

    Cole
    -Dangerous Crew-

    Mobbin the SF and Tekken scene like
    Gai Sensai: DYNAMIC ENTREE!!!!!
    *sparkle on da Fro* =D

    "Chuck Norris and Mr. T walked into a bar. The bar was instantly destroyed, as that level of awesome cannot be contained in one building"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,494
    can a scrub sim chime in?


    if not i'm going to anyways...


    what up Cole? we met at ffa when 4 first came out there, you were teaching me about the focus attack cancels with guile v. guile... tight... thx.


    what up David? long time no see.


    anywho i've been playing ALOT at ai ffa etc. and i've never been good with dhalsim on ANY version of sf (not counting ww) so of course the first time i tried to play him on 4 at evo i got straight beasted on. and it's been this way ever since then, EVERY TIME. on whatever version of streetfighter i play i just get people jumping over my limbs, anticipating with srk etc. my ratio of poke to counter was like 2 to 1 ( for every 2 limbs/ fb's i stuck out theyd get countered half the time)
    which is a horrible ratio and the reason i never played sim.


    but i had an epiphany when i last played him (against edma and co at AI) i (finally)
    realized that my opponents WERE GOING TO JUMP... so i actually had no reason at the start of the round (or any time for that matter) to stick out mad limbs, 'cause the limbs are there for the secondary reason of giving your op reason to jump... and if we already know that our op has the jump mindset we can simply wait, no need to do any more *encouragement* so to speak.

    so long story short, i turtled up and did nothing and pretty much just waited for them to jump at me secure in the knowledge that they wouldnt try to triple dash in and throw me (who does this). and low and behold what happened is they would zone me for a sec and then try some rash/bold maneuver to get in and i would AA them or toss them away... which lead to them being more conservative with there offense, which lead to me being able to actually (play) sim and stick out like 4-5 fierces, strongs forwards etc. in a row. it was fucking cool! lol.


    so basically my epiphany was that i had to show them that i could AA them consistently. once thats accomplished i could do almost whatever i wanted.
    btw i still lost these games because honestly i never play with sim, i dont even know all the motions for his specials much less the timings of them. but the strat worked.



    not saying i'm on the level of any sims here, just saying an op who thinks that theres a 90% chance that they are gonna take damage for jumping becomes much more pliant to whatever it is you want to do.


    also a tactic i use v gief with chun (my main) is to stay INSIDE the range of his ex glove of cheese... 'cause most giefs i've seen use glove in one of two ways mainly:

    to blow through ranged pokes.


    and to advance into spd range through it's tremendous wiff animation.

    so my tactic is to deny gief wiff ex glove range, i basically take that tactic out of his arsenal, then all i have to worry about is his breaking through pokes, jumping and or using something else to hit my standing hk, to which i adjust. but put simply its HARD for him to psychic glove through stuff and for every one that he misses (cause i blocked it) its COMBO TIME!

    i dont find the matchup ( v.chun) easy, but it is tolerable even though chun has BUTT AA's.



    the way i see it is, there are two characters that force you to pplay them differently than everyone else, that BOTH come with huge threats before you even see what whoever is playing them actually does.

    they are gief and sim.
    people want to buttfuck sim the instant it says "fight". seriously, theres no such thing as being to close to sim.

    and they want to stay the fuck away from gief, run all day if possible, basically treat him like hes got airborn gonorrhea.



    sorry for the rambling... i'm bored...


    as i play more and more sim ill come in with more detailed tactics next time.
    no more rambling.



    -dime
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Footsy BebopFootsy Bebop Joined: Posts: 326
    does gief's EX green hand go through yoga flame as well?
  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    hahahah WOW Dime_X, I applaud your post my friend. You have fuckin found the needle in the muther fuckin haystack!! Its very hard to get that across to most people trying to learn sim.

    But I couldnt have said it any better, in fact i almost wanna print this post and fuckin hand it out to all beggining sim players.

    This is EXACTLY what you need to be doing. You are right, people think "oh its sim, fuck sim ill jump at him, do whatever i want, i can get the biggest combos, sim cant do shit. Im gonna uppercut his limbs and have my way with him.

    The fuckin SECOND you start getting consistent with counterng there jump...they are fuckin dumbfounded. Believe me, they will jump 5 times in a row...counter them 5 times...they sit there....then they think...oh he just got lucky so ill wait and not be obvious with my jump. They jump again, you put them fuckin down. The second u see them starting to formulate a plan...is when u are free to do whatever u want.

    People are always gong to jump at sim. Its been in grained in their mind since WW that the only way in, is to get a lucky jump or lucky dp on limbs, knock sim down and advance.

    Most the people I play up here in WA vs my sim already know they cant get away with jumping. So they turtle and sit there. So it gives me time to build meter, teleport bait, do intelligent poking and start making them feel helpless. They HAVE to take a chance, sim does not. I can pressure u from across the screen. Sure, there is no block stun meter, but nobody lkes having to block shit from across the screen. FORCE them to play the ground game, MAKE them feel like they have to jump so u can get free counters.

    In sf4, they made anti air moves mindless with all characters. This game is all about footsies and FC shanningans. Sim has two moves that cover all antiairs, B+rh (for people that jump from a distance) and B+Strong (for people that are right above your head) Sim needs nothing else but he can...jump+fierce, jump back+neutral strong, teleport, slide, ex-upflame. So you gotta ask yourself, he has 2 main ones that stop everything, and about 5 others just to change it up and keep people guessing. Nobody should EVER JUMP AT SIM!!!! You have the tools to destroy anyone.

    Thanks for that Post Dime, you are on the fast track to being a Sim pro my friend =)

    Cole
    -Dangerous Crew-

    Mobbin the SF and Tekken scene like
    Gai Sensai: DYNAMIC ENTREE!!!!!
    *sparkle on da Fro* =D

    "Chuck Norris and Mr. T walked into a bar. The bar was instantly destroyed, as that level of awesome cannot be contained in one building"
  • DucksSeasonDucksSeason Joined: Posts: 197 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Hey guys, i don't see a matchup rating for boxer so just wonder what you guys think? I personally have more trouble with boxer than most other characters. I still win my share of games against boxer but it's a tougher fight than most other characters imo.

    few things that makes boxer tougher against sim.

    1. His normals are very good. (c. mp, c. hp, & maybe other i don't know about) at countering sim's limbs. my st. hp & j. hp gets beat out of trade by those sometime. When we do trade, sim will be on the losing end.

    2. Boxer has a low jump and combine with his j. rh (which hits at an angle) give sim some trouble with AA with b. mp or b. rh. Sim will win if you do b. mp or b. rh (depending on distance) early but will trade or stuff if slightly late.

    3. boxer has the ex. rush punches that can take a hit to get in so sim can't poke that much as you will get hit from the rush punches.

    These are some problems I run across against boxer. I still think sim gets the advantage in this match up, just have to be more cautious about the things boxer can do to get in and counter pokes.

    I'm interested in what you guys think and what strats you have against boxer.
    SFIV: RYU
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,494
    hahahah WOW Dime_X, I applaud your post my friend. You have fuckin found the needle in the muther fuckin haystack!! Its very hard to get that across to most people trying to learn sim.

    But I couldnt have said it any better, in fact i almost wanna print this post and fuckin hand it out to all beggining sim players.

    This is EXACTLY what you need to be doing. You are right, people think "oh its sim, fuck sim ill jump at him, do whatever i want, i can get the biggest combos, sim cant do shit. Im gonna uppercut his limbs and have my way with him.

    The fuckin SECOND you start getting consistent with counterng there jump...they are fuckin dumbfounded. Believe me, they will jump 5 times in a row...counter them 5 times...they sit there....then they think...oh he just got lucky so ill wait and not be obvious with my jump. They jump again, you put them fuckin down. The second u see them starting to formulate a plan...is when u are free to do whatever u want.

    People are always gong to jump at sim. Its been in grained in their mind since WW that the only way in, is to get a lucky jump or lucky dp on limbs, knock sim down and advance.

    Most the people I play up here in WA vs my sim already know they cant get away with jumping. So they turtle and sit there. So it gives me time to build meter, teleport bait, do intelligent poking and start making them feel helpless. They HAVE to take a chance, sim does not. I can pressure u from across the screen. Sure, there is no block stun meter, but nobody lkes having to block shit from across the screen. FORCE them to play the ground game, MAKE them feel like they have to jump so u can get free counters.

    In sf4, they made anti air moves mindless with all characters. This game is all about footsies and FC shanningans. Sim has two moves that cover all antiairs, B+rh (for people that jump from a distance) and B+Strong (for people that are right above your head) Sim needs nothing else but he can...jump+fierce, jump back+neutral strong, teleport, slide, ex-upflame. So you gotta ask yourself, he has 2 main ones that stop everything, and about 5 others just to change it up and keep people guessing. Nobody should EVER JUMP AT SIM!!!! You have the tools to destroy anyone.

    Thanks for that Post Dime, you are on the fast track to being a Sim pro my friend =)

    Cole




    hey cole thx for the positive response:tup: if you want to print that up for BEGINNING sims in your area, it would be an honor, of course i wouldnt mind. i would think with you being pretty much americas premier sim player there would be lots of people wanting to pick up sim when your around to teach them.





    would it be possible for me to get in on some of that elite fa shenanigans though:cool:


    lol my execution isnt what it should be so it's hard for me to practice such things.


    -dime
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    Hehe ya im all about teaching everyone up here in WA. Unfortunately only like 2 other guys here that wanna play sim and they dont come very often. Everyone else just finding ways to beat my sim haha sucks cause im the only one coming up with shit around like every char but no help really. All good tho =D Sim is top tier in my eyes. Right now there is nobody that completely shuts him out. I have shit on everyone just like ST.

    Cole
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    *sparkle on da Fro* =D

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  • OperA123OperA123 TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR Joined: Posts: 310
    Yo wat up Cole its me Liston from NYC. I just wanna say I respect ur opinion on the matter of sim vs. gief. Sim has to b very careful in this match and not fuck up cuz of how much life he will lose, but wat every one has to remeber is that they are not playing against the character, they are playing against a person and it's ur job to get into that person's head. Being predictable lets gief get in, some times u gotta chill n see wat their trying to do.
    It's better to say your sorry than to ask for permission
    Liston AKA Gary AKA Fabolous From nothing to something
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  • CptMuntaCptMunta 3 Green Bars Joined: Posts: 1,207
    Man... This thread ROCKS! Played a Guile player and heard him shout FUCK! in frustration from the other cab as I punished all his jump ins with Back HK and Back SP.

    You do have to play Sim in a very different way than I'm used to. He's my main in CVS2 and I felt lost without his drills till I got educated in this thread.

    They move the local cab to another city tomorrow as it was just here for a few weeks for repairs sadly. Cheers Cole and the guys for helping me have a Yoga Blast! ;)
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 4-6
    Guile: 4-6
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5-5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 3-7
    Dictator: 5-5
    Abel: 5-5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 5-5
    does gief's EX green hand go through yoga flame as well?
    Gief's ex green hand goes through super and ultra, let alone yoga flame (yes, it goes through yoga flame). Lariat goes through all of these too.
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  • COMBO FIENDCOMBO FIEND New School OG Joined: Posts: 205
    I've played against pretty much all characters so far and this is my match up tally so far with Sim:
    Akuma: 5-5
    Abel: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Bison: 4-6
    Boxer: 6-4
    Claw: 5-5
    C Viper: 6-4
    Chun: 6-4
    Guile: 5-5
    Fuerte: 6-4
    Honda: 6-4
    Ken: 5-5
    Rufus: 4-6
    Ryu: 5-5
    Sagat: 5-5
    Zangief: 4-6

    I've only played him a little over a week, but this is what it seems currently. A lot of those matches, I actually have it a point higher, but that might just be me being overly optimistic, so I used a more conservative point tally.
    It seems to me, Sim played right either barely wins or barely loses. Since SF4 is a tribute to footsies, he should technically win more. In my eyes, there are no 7/3 match ups with Sim like other characters may have, thereby making them useless.
    Maybe my opinion will change when I get destroyed by someone sick, but currently I feel these numbers are right.
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  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    Only thing id change in those match ups is:

    Ken/ryu: I feel its 6/4 sim. Both shotos have to really work hard to get in. Sim at his lesiure can poke and pressure. They have to guess to get knock downs which is always a disadvantage.

    Boxer: 5/5 I think this is like ST. Where if sim is far he has advantage, the second rog gets in, the stats change. It also changes once he has ultra or super. Unblockable does not work on him cause he can headbutt, turnaround punch or ultra/super through it.

    Gief is prob right, but when i play sim i feel gief cant do a god damn thing lol. Sure he can green hand...if im a fool and stickin shit out all day and throwing fireballs. He cant EVER cross u up spplash, u get free full screen teleport. He HAS to lock u in the corner and not let u port out. All he has going for him is sim cant do teleport shaninagans. Otherwise im never near him and i can bait lariets all day and green hand.

    Everything else i pretty much agree with. Maybe sagat 6/4 sim.

    Cole
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    He im the only one coming up with shit around like every char but no help really.
    Cole

    Man you will not alone for long..... I'll be playing soon......:karate: LOL....
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • Evil RahsaanEvil Rahsaan Top 5 dead or alive Joined: Posts: 454
    I've played against pretty much all characters so far and this is my match up tally so far with Sim:
    Akuma: 5-5
    Abel: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Bison: 4-6
    Boxer: 6-4
    Claw: 5-5
    C Viper: 6-4
    Chun: 6-4
    Guile: 5-5
    Fuerte: 6-4
    Honda: 6-4
    Ken: 5-5
    Rufus: 4-6
    Ryu: 5-5
    Sagat: 5-5
    Zangief: 4-6

    I've only played him a little over a week, but this is what it seems currently. A lot of those matches, I actually have it a point higher, but that might just be me being overly optimistic, so I used a more conservative point tally.
    It seems to me, Sim played right either barely wins or barely loses. Since SF4 is a tribute to footsies, he should technically win more. In my eyes, there are no 7/3 match ups with Sim like other characters may have, thereby making them useless.
    Maybe my opinion will change when I get destroyed by someone sick, but currently I feel these numbers are right.

    His worst matchups IMO are Rufus Sagat bison chun everyone else can get their ass whooped. But the above mentioned matchups are pretty fucked up
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 4-6
    Guile: 4-6
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5-5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 5.5-4.5
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 6-4
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 5-5

    I thought Sagat was a really bad matchup for a while, but lately I've been doing well enough against even really good Sagats so that now I think it's basically even. Now that I think about it, I don't really know why I thought it was all that bad, I think it was mostly me just being too nooby. If he gets in close it's still really bad, but the thing is that it's pretty difficult for him to get in considering that your antiairs, limbs, and yoga fires are pretty solid against him. Also, this is one of the few matchups where I use ex fireballs a lot. It's a good way to stifle Sagat's tiger shot pressure since it'll neutralize two tiger shots and neutralize an ex tiger shot, and that's important since if Sagat throws an ex shot and you have a regular yoga fire out anywhere close to you, you're gonna get knocked down by the second hit and Sagat's gonna fly right in with his stupid moving short to tiger knee. It's also not a big deal to lose super, since you don't really need it as an antiair and since you're not about to teleport up to him very often. Also, short slide goes under tiger shots pretty easily.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 3-7
    Guile: 4.5-5.5
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5-5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 5.5-4.5
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 6-4
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 5-5


    I'm listing the Zangief matchup as more of a baste again. The thing is, Sim has a harder time of keeping Gief out (and keeping himself out of the corner) than he does with most characters, and once Gief gets in he can just go on retarded autopilot. If Gief gets a life lead he can also just turtle really well, since yoga fires aren't going to chip him to death, but as effective as that is, I don't think it's as effective for him as getting in is.

    You guys know how the keep-out game goes. Gief's jumping forward and fierce beat standing roundhouse, slide and down-back+jab beat jumping forward and fierce, Gief's empty jump to block-spd beats slide and down-back+jab, standing roundhouse and jumping strong beat empty jump, Gief's jumping fierce beats jumping strong and jumping forward and fierce beat standing roundhouse, etc. Super beats all jumping attacks, but at most ranges only a few hits of the super will hit, and empty jump to block beats super unless you do it early. And all the while, kick lariat beats or goes through most limbs at most ranges on startup, but you can punish a whiffed lariat with some limbs from some ranges.

    But when Gief gets up close, he can just throw thinking completely out the window. Why? Sim can do nothing about meaty kick lariat. Let's check off your options here. Teleport? If this is midscreen, fine, your put yourself closer to the corner; if this is in the corner, your teleport will land right on Gief's fists regardless of which teleport you used, and if you teleported out, after you gets knocked down Gief can cross you up and put you right back in the corner. Ultra? Lariat goes right through ultra and knocks Sim down. Super? Lariat goes right through super and knocks Sim down. Focus? If your wake up when the lariat isn't on an active frame you can start up focus, but lariat beats focus because it hits twice, and if you woke up into an active frame this wouldn't work at all. Block and then attack? Kick lariat beats Sim's close standing normals and goes through Sim's crouching normals (and even beats some crouching normals). Block and then yoga tower? Lariat beats yoga tower. Block and then throw? Gief should be doing this lariat outside of your throw range, so no. Hold up and try to jump out? Works if lariat isn't on an active hit frame, but if this isn't in the corner, well, you put yourself closer to the corner, and if it is in the corner, Gief can do punch lariat and beat everything you can do in the air, including beat teleport's recovery. Block and dash back? Sure, but again, that'll put you closer to the corner, and if you're already in the corner the lariat will beat you out of your backdash recovery. Block and do nothing? Yes, that is Sim's option here, and it is not a good one. But Gief should be using the occasional spd/suplex mixup to keep you honest anyway.

    I couldn't think of anything to do to beat this kick lariat crap, it totally owned me. And I had a chance to use my Gief against the best Sim player in the area yesterday, and he couldn't do anything about it either. This is a really bad matchup.
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  • COMBO FIENDCOMBO FIEND New School OG Joined: Posts: 205
    Ryu: 5-5
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 3-7
    Guile: 4.5-5.5
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5-5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 5.5-4.5
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 6-4
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 5-5


    I'm listing the Zangief matchup as more of a baste again. The thing is, Sim has a harder time of keeping Gief out (and keeping himself out of the corner) than he does with most characters, and once Gief gets in he can just go on retarded autopilot. If Gief gets a life lead he can also just turtle really well, since yoga fires aren't going to chip him to death, but as effective as that is, I don't think it's as effective for him as getting in is.

    You guys know how the keep-out game goes. Gief's jumping forward and fierce beat standing roundhouse, slide and down-back+jab beat jumping forward and fierce, Gief's empty jump to block-spd beats slide and down-back+jab, standing roundhouse and jumping strong beat empty jump, Gief's jumping fierce beats jumping strong and jumping forward and fierce beat standing roundhouse, etc. Super beats all jumping attacks, but at most ranges only a few hits of the super will hit, and empty jump to block beats super unless you do it early. And all the while, kick lariat beats or goes through most limbs at most ranges on startup, but you can punish a whiffed lariat with some limbs from some ranges.

    But when Gief gets up close, he can just throw thinking completely out the window. Why? Sim can do nothing about meaty kick lariat. Let's check off your options here. Teleport? If this is midscreen, fine, your put yourself closer to the corner; if this is in the corner, your teleport will land right on Gief's fists regardless of which teleport you used, and if you teleported out, after you gets knocked down Gief can cross you up and put you right back in the corner. Ultra? Lariat goes right through ultra and knocks Sim down. Super? Lariat goes right through super and knocks Sim down. Focus? If your wake up when the lariat isn't on an active frame you can start up focus, but lariat beats focus because it hits twice, and if you woke up into an active frame this wouldn't work at all. Block and then attack? Kick lariat beats Sim's close standing normals and goes through Sim's crouching normals (and even beats some crouching normals). Block and then yoga tower? Lariat beats yoga tower. Block and then throw? Gief should be doing this lariat outside of your throw range, so no. Hold up and try to jump out? Works if lariat isn't on an active hit frame, but if this isn't in the corner, well, you put yourself closer to the corner, and if it is in the corner, Gief can do punch lariat and beat everything you can do in the air, including beat teleport's recovery. Block and dash back? Sure, but again, that'll put you closer to the corner, and if you're already in the corner the lariat will beat you out of your backdash recovery. Block and do nothing? Yes, that is Sim's option here, and it is not a good one. But Gief should be using the occasional spd/suplex mixup to keep you honest anyway.

    I couldn't think of anything to do to beat this kick lariat crap, it totally owned me. And I had a chance to use my Gief against the best Sim player in the area yesterday, and he couldn't do anything about it either. This is a really bad matchup.

    That had to be one of the most retarded experiences ever. Sim is totally useless in the corner against Gief. If there was ever a moment where a match seemed hopeless, there it was. Nothing in Sim's repetoire can stop a lariat which is the saddest thing ever. One move destroys for free.

    I was under the impression that there were no matches that were almost completely out of hand, but this has to be one of the worst in the game.

    Anyhow, quick update:

    Gief: 3-7 (if it gets to the corner, 1-9)
    Ken: 4.5-5.5

    The other ratings pretty much stay the same.

    Ken can get in too easy to due to f+fk. And Kara throw madness. Sim's strengths come from actively seeing everything and pushing the opponent out. Since Ken's f+fk moves in way too quick, it's a lot of work to stop him and Ken can random DP if you decide to be proactive and hit a button attempting to stop him. Plus Sim isn't doing enough damage with random pokes to keep Ken out. Teleport doesn't help much cause then you end up closer to the corner or in Ken's kara throw range. All in all, an excellent match with Sim if the Ken player isn't adept at using Kara throws or doesn't have an excellent ground game. If the Ken player has those two items down, this fight becomes unusually hard.
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  • SabinSabin Arcana 2 on PS2 SUX Joined: Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    i dont know, most fights are unusually hard with sim

    also
    I'm listing the Zangief matchup as more of a baste again. The thing is, Sim has a harder time of keeping Gief out (and keeping himself out of the corner) than he does with most characters, and once Gief gets in he can just go on retarded autopilot. If Gief gets a life lead he can also just turtle really well, since yoga fires aren't going to chip him to death, but as effective as that is, I don't think it's as effective for him as getting in is.

    This was always the case before the kick lariat stuff; and sim getting pushed to the corner pretty much meant death even before this discovery, so im not sure exactly what changed. All it does is reinforce my mindset as to not get in the corner vs Gief.

    I'd have to assume low slides/sweep get owned up in the cone by this crap too due to the kick lariat invincibility vs lows. Pretty gayy. Still, like I said, anytime Gief gets in, its pretty much autopilot.

    Also, I still dont know what you guys are seeing that makes Sagat vs Sim a good matchup for sim. Short/forward slide is HARD to slide thru tiger consistently, especially if they alternate their speed on tiger shots - the window is small to slide thru this and i end up taking damage anyways. Sliding thru a fireball puts me in a good position tho, but if I mess up obviously im worse off.

    Can't match him in fireball fight either. eventually youll have to jump/teleport/evade somehow. EX freball helps, but youre just burning valuable super IMO. he needs his super meter for that big damage in this matchup. eventually youll have to jump or focus the fireball. focusing vs sagat doesnt get u much, jumping slightly forwards puts you at risk of eating sagat f+rh into chunk of your life (of course you can teleport out, but you cant do anything after)

    overhead fierce is nice,m but htting him with it puts you at the EXACT range that sagat can tiger spam you from.

    any ideas?
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Before I figured out the kick lariat nonsense, I'd just do something like crouching whatever into mixups or just wakeup spd, both of which Sim can counter. Sim can't do anything about meaty kick lariat, it's a brainless way to win for Zangief. Hopefully our other local Gief player comes to the arcade tonight, I want him to test out whether Sim can do anything about repeated kick lariats in Sim's face, just like Gief sitting there spinning a couple feet away. I kinda expect that he can't, and if that's the case, then this matchup is like 2-8 at best.

    The Sagat matchup I don't think is so bad. Your antiairs work great against him, so he can't jump in. If he's like 1/3-1/2 screen away on the ground, you can safely throw a yoga fire, thereby stopping him from doing tiger knee and either taking block damage and getting pushed back (which is great for you), throwing a counter tiger shot (which is fine, and great if you have time to counter with standing fierce before he recovers), jumping toward you (which is great, cause you get to deal free damage), or neutral jumping or jumping away (which is fine).

    You can play fireball games with him fairly well, I'd say. It really helps to have an ex ready in fireball games against Sagat, both because you want to neutralize ex tiger shots (since getting knocked down equals Sagat moving half the screen toward you with walking short into tiger knee) and because you want Sagat to have to block and let himself get pushed back every once in a while. If eventually you get forced into a situation where you don't have time to yoga fire, if it's a low shot you can slide under (which I only do if it seems like a fast shot), tiger knee teleport in place, jump into drill over it, or jump towards him, and if it's a high shot just slide under or, if you're in range, fierce him.

    Jumping toward might seem like a bad idea, but it's really not, as long as you train your opponent to think that you can teleport back at any time. This is gonna dissuade him from uppercuts and knees, especially if you only do the back+kick teleport to keep yourself midscreen where you can punish him for that. You can also jump toward psychically, not just when forced, for the same reason. If you see him throw out a tiger shot just after you jump, you'll usually have enough time to jumping fierce him before he recovers.

    I don't save super meter in this matchup. In my opinion super should only be saved in a few cases. The first is if my opponent wants to jump in on me, which Sagat doesn't want to do, because all your antiairs are on point against him anyway. The second is if I want to get close to my opponent either with slides or with teleports, which I definitely don't want to do against Sagat because his up-close game is so strong against me. And the third is if I don't particularly expect a jump-in or to be up close, but there's not really any reason to use exes anyway (like against Viper or something).

    Also, jump back instant fierce leaves you at a fine range, unless you did it where either you or your opponent is too close to the corner, because then Sagat can make you land on a tiger shot. But otherwise, you can jump over or slide under any shot he can throw at you.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Hopefully our other local Gief player comes to the arcade tonight, I want him to test out whether Sim can do anything about repeated kick lariats in Sim's face, just like Gief sitting there spinning a couple feet away. I kinda expect that he can't, and if that's the case, then this matchup is like 2-8 at best.
    Well, he sorta can. If you wait until the very end of the kick lariat, during its recovery phase, you can hit him. You have 17 frames at the end of the kick lariat after it stops hitting and before Gief recovers to attack him, so you have time to put out any one of your normals (although for some reason every time I tried down+roundhouse or down-back+roundhouse, they whiffed). But if Gief sees that kick lariat didn't work on your wakeup he'll start steering his lariat away from you, so while you can usually hit him with back+forward and down-back+forward, you can't combo into flame because he's too far. You can cancel into yoga fire, but that's ex green hand bait. If he steers all the way back, you have to hit him with a far attack.

    Anyway, so you can't do anything about kick lariat on wakeup, but you can punish it with a normal attack. Unfortunately, that still leaves Zangief in a pretty good position and your down-back+forward takes off less than 6% of Gief's life, so this kick lariat thing is still great for him. And it means that all you can do against the lariat on wakeup is block, which is really bad for you because he can mix up between meaty kick lariat and spd so easily.

    Basically, on your wakeup v Zangief in the corner, you have a bad decision to make. Block in expectation of lariat and barely punish Zangief at all, or backdash, jump, tower, or teleport in expectation of spd, which can actually lead to real punishment for Zangief in the form of both good damage and good positioning for you.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 5.5-4.5
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 6-4
    Zangief: 3-7
    Guile: 4.5-5.5
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5-5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 5.5-4.5
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 5.5-4.5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 5-5
    Fuerte: 5-5
    Akuma: 4-6


    Just thought I'd write some stuff about the Claw matchup. Claw's jumping toward fierce and roundhouse beat all of your antiairs, literally. If he does them early, they beat standing roundhouse; if he does them with normal timing, they beat all your other regular antiairs; and if he does them late, they beat slide. The only thing they don't beat is jumping strong, and his jumping strong beats that. If you're up really close, you can try a jump back immediate back+strong/fierce/roundhouse too. And of course focus works as well, but that's only good if you start charging just as he jumps. When in doubt, just block. Not having your usual antiairs be as effective as usual hurts your game a bit, but jumping strong, slides, focus, and block are still pretty effective, and it should still be hard for Claw to get in.

    When he does wall dive, get ready to do a slide, but don't do it immediately. He can vary when he gets to you, and if you do the slide too early, you'll get popped. Wait until he gets a little ways off the wall and then press down+forward (not down-toward+forward, since if he crosses you up you won't get a slide that way), and you'll go right under any walldive, including the punch dive (sky high claw). When you recover, just press fierce punch, and you'll always hit him.

    If Claw gets close, if you block most of the time, he can't really deal big damage. Err on the side of caution, because getting crouching short xx ex walldive/flipkick deals really good damage and gives Claw great positioning, so you don't want to risk that. At mid-range, your back+forward, down-back+strong, down-back+fierce, and forward kick slide are pretty decent footsies, as usual.

    You have to watch out for ex walldive even if you're far away, since Sim is tall enough that he can get hit even from like 3/4 screen and it's too fast a move to react to. So instead of standing there throwing out yoga fires or just waiting to react to whatever Claw does, you really have to be crouch blocking a lot.

    And ideally that's about where you want to stand, at like 3/4 distance midscreen. From there your jumping strong is a good on-reaction antiair that leaves Claw still pretty far away from you, and if you don't think that's going to work, you can standing roundhouse and slide from that range too. You can react to walldives well from there as well. If Claw tries to just walk up, obviously you can shut that down with fierces, forwards, strongs, low punches, you know, the usual fare.
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  • SabinSabin Arcana 2 on PS2 SUX Joined: Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    UltraDavid, good looks on the sim/sagat matchup, tried your advice and it was enough to get me the W in tourney. EX fireball is pretty crucial in this match, since it keeps the momentum going and it allows sim to advance a little bit. midscreen, stand fierce is good for stuffing tigers or trading with them. i just get fucked up once he gets in on me, have to look out for the random jumpins
    SRK should stand for Stupid Retarded Kids.
    Originally Posted by Alidfe
    Arturo Sanchez won't be the best Dhalsim until he moves to Kyoto and changes his name to Kazuhiko Nitsuma.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Sweet, good job dude!
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 6-4
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 5.5-4.5
    Zangief: 3-7
    Guile: 4.5-5.5
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5.5-4.5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 5.5-4.5
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 5.5-4.5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 5-5
    Fuerte: 4.5-5.5
    Akuma: 4-6


    Alright, I agree, Dhalsim beats Ryu. I'm also listing Fuerte as having a slight advantage v Dhalsim now. It's a really weird and tricky matchup for both players, but I think Fuerte comes out slightly ahead.

    You can't play your normal zoning game against Fuerte, it just doesn't work. Fuerte's run into max range fierce grab has about the same range as your standing fierce, aka like 3/4 of the screen, his ex run into whatever beats whatever you have out except an ex fireball, he can get around fireballs super easily, and his jumping fierce trades with back+roundhouse. At the same time, he can't really play his normal meaty ST Claw walldive bs because if you teleport either back or behind him, you're pretty much safe if he goes for a splash, slide, or run-grab. His objective is still to get in, and your objective is still to keep him out, you just both have to try to accomplish your goals differently from how you usually do.

    Basically, I try to run away to a range where I can react to his running. If I'm at full screen I'll start throwing yoga fires, but if I'm much closer than that it's too risky to do that considering that his run into splash and run into grab can both make you pay. React to run with jump back or up into fierce, but watch out for run into stop into air grab. Try to harass him with standing strong, crouching strong, and standing fierce when you guys are just standing there and you don't want to risk a yoga fire.

    If I get a knockdown, I start pressuring him, since you can actually hurt him a lot with meaty games considering his low health bar. On his wakeup, pressure with deep meaty crouching strong all day, even if he has ultra. If he does ultra, you recover in time to do instant air teleport in place into combo, or even full neutral jump into combo. Going for throw or crouching fierce or whatever will get you eaten by ultra. The only time you should be wary about pressuring him on wakeup is if he has super, since his super goes right through all of your meaties. If he has ultra, be aware that jumping with attacks and doing things like standing or crouching strong can get you ultraed free on reaction.

    Random list of what beats what and what loses to what:

    --Fuerte's splash beats all of your antiairs, don't even bother trying
    --run into grab grabs you out of all your antiairs, including slide and back+strong
    --standing roundhouse if you see him run and think he's going airborne for splash or throw
    --crouching strong if you think he's going slide
    --better yet, jump up or back, wait a sec, then fierce
    --unlike in 3S, where you could tech air throws even if you didn't have an airthrow yourself, nobody can tech air throws here, not even if your character has one, so watch out for Fuerte's
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  • SabinSabin Arcana 2 on PS2 SUX Joined: Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Heh, nice writeup. I've only played a handful of El Fuerte's in Japan, havent plaeyd any here, and I remember he was really annoying caues of his mobility. If he got in, I got fucked up obviously. Basically if he tried to go for splash/grab mixup, teleport your ass out of there, and tried to zone fullscreen with fireball into far jump strong if he tried to triangle jump off the wall. Midscreen, I can't really do too much fb spamming cause of his ultra, so I need to be careful.

    Well, NEC is coming up this weekend. Matchups I'm worried about:

    Sim vs Chun
    Sim vs Rog

    Rog storing headbutt nerfs a lot of sim's teleport setups bad post knockdown - TAP is also a bitch do deal with as well since it goes thru fireballs. Scared to pressure him as well cause of the armor on his EX rush punches. EX fireball of course beats the EX rush, but once I don't have meter, not sure what I'm doing. Hard to antiair him as well from certain ranges.

    Chun makes me change my gameplan once she has ultra, and it's touch to deal with her fireball game as opposed to standard shotos. It's hard to punish walkback-> fb from full screen vs her. Of course I can slide that from half screen, but if I start looking to punish that, I stop thinking about punishing random jumpins. Full screen FB into chun walkup pressure is difficult to deal with as well, cause once she gets in, I have to make sure not to flinch with her jab/short attacks into grab mixups. It's hard to jump back in that situation either, cause I'm scared of eating j fierce combos which hurt a ton - and that pattern forces me to walk back in a lot of situations. It's hard to antiair her j. rh from specific ranges as well (specifically from far away, it trades a lot)

    Prob need to play more, been slacking the past 2 weeks or so.

    I also agree on the Akuma matchup being 4-6 right now, His air FB game and demon flip mixups/teleport give sim a lot of trouble - can't handle him like a traditional shoto match. How are you dealing with demon flip pressure? his 2 hit RH makes me pretty uncomfortable as well due to the range it covers/combo potential.
    SRK should stand for Stupid Retarded Kids.
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    Arturo Sanchez won't be the best Dhalsim until he moves to Kyoto and changes his name to Kazuhiko Nitsuma.
  • Evil RahsaanEvil Rahsaan Top 5 dead or alive Joined: Posts: 454
    Heh, nice writeup. I've only played a handful of El Fuerte's in Japan, havent plaeyd any here, and I remember he was really annoying caues of his mobility. If he got in, I got fucked up obviously. Basically if he tried to go for splash/grab mixup, teleport your ass out of there, and tried to zone fullscreen with fireball into far jump strong if he tried to triangle jump off the wall. Midscreen, I can't really do too much fb spamming cause of his ultra, so I need to be careful.

    Well, NEC is coming up this weekend. Matchups I'm worried about:

    Sim vs Chun
    Sim vs Rog

    Rog storing headbutt nerfs a lot of sim's teleport setups bad post knockdown - TAP is also a bitch do deal with as well since it goes thru fireballs. Scared to pressure him as well cause of the armor on his EX rush punches. EX fireball of course beats the EX rush, but once I don't have meter, not sure what I'm doing. Hard to antiair him as well from certain ranges.

    Chun makes me change my gameplan once she has ultra, and it's touch to deal with her fireball game as opposed to standard shotos. It's hard to punish walkback-> fb from full screen vs her. Of course I can slide that from half screen, but if I start looking to punish that, I stop thinking about punishing random jumpins. Full screen FB into chun walkup pressure is difficult to deal with as well, cause once she gets in, I have to make sure not to flinch with her jab/short attacks into grab mixups. It's hard to jump back in that situation either, cause I'm scared of eating j fierce combos which hurt a ton - and that pattern forces me to walk back in a lot of situations. It's hard to antiair her j. rh from specific ranges as well (specifically from far away, it trades a lot)

    Prob need to play more, been slacking the past 2 weeks or so.

    I also agree on the Akuma matchup being 4-6 right now, His air FB game and demon flip mixups/teleport give sim a lot of trouble - can't handle him like a traditional shoto match. How are you dealing with demon flip pressure? his 2 hit RH makes me pretty uncomfortable as well due to the range it covers/combo potential.

    Rog does have a million ways to limit sims keepaway to shit and he can get in easily since jump in fp stuffs limbs if he jumps in from max distance. I think akuma, rog and bison are this worst matchups.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Well with Rog I think you can play a modified version of your regular zoning game. I want him at like 3/4 screen and I always try to have a fireball hanging out there. If I see him do tap or ex rush through a fireball, short/forward slide on reaction stuffs the tap and the second hit of the ex rush. If you hit with the end of forward slide, link to down-back+jab xx whatever, and if you hit with short slide cancel it right into whatever, or mix that up with throws. It's definitely hard to antiair him, but I find that max range down-back+jab and down-back+fierce will usually work, and slide always beats an early or regularly timed jumping attack.

    If you knock him down right next to you and you don't want to just teleport far away, you can do very early down-back+short on him all day because the last frame of that move + its recovery is less than any of his wakeup moves, from headbutt to super to ultra. This is kinda hard to time and I still mess it up a bunch, but it really is worth practicing.

    With Chun, I think you need to be aware of both sliding under fireball and how to antiair her jump-ins. Down-back+fierce and down-back+strong beat or trade with her far jumping fierce; back+strong and slide beat her close jumping fierce; back+roundhouse beats far early jumping roundhouse; back+strong beats close early jumping roundhouse; jump back instant back+strong and back+fierce beats late jumping roundhouse; and back+strong beats far jumping short and close jumping short. I think it's really hard for Chun to jump at you.

    Once Chun figures this out, she's going to try to get in with fireball to walk-up and flying overhead instead, and that's not that easy to deal with. If the Chun player is dumb enough to throw a fireball where you can punish it with slide on reaction, then awesome, but that's not likely to happen too much. He's gonna walk out of range and do it then instead. From there, you just have to learn which of your normals beat or trade with her's and guess or react to things like her overhead and crouching roundhouse. If she gets in, then yeah, it's really hard for you to deal with her and you're probably gonna take damage, but oh well, that's how it is with almost all of Sim's matchups.
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  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    Wow, you still feel Zangief has a 7-3 over Sim ultra David? Dont you play sim now? hehe

    Yeah Sabin that chun match up is a weird one. You can actually trade her fb with your stand fierce, sometimes its good but something else to get her thinking. If she is jumping from a distance and hitting your b+rh with her jump rh, you should think about hitting her with jump back far strong. I mean if she is already jumping from that far distance, it should be relativley easy to anti air her, u have so many choices. I think she is just catching u off guard so u hesitate in anti airing which can result in a trade or her beating your move. Also, those chuns that like to follow FB, u can also hit low fierce to hit them. U will trade with fB but at least it stops her advancement.

    I dont see what she has to threaten sim with outside of stupid jab/short/throw mixups up close. B+Forward will beat anything she has to throw out after she pressures you with low short X3. She can maybe throw FB at close range, but if u are on point u can AirHyper the port and get a free combo.

    I also like to just teleport backwards a lot just so its harder for them to tell when im actually going to teleport near them and combo. Matching FB for Fb so she cant follow, porting around (which makes it easier for u to see her make a mistake and capitolize by porting over).

    I also like building meter and using my ultra as "Take the Hit" punishment. Sims ultra is prob the best in the game to this regard. You see her punk ass jumping, free ultra...let her rh hit u, who cares, she is eating ultra for free. Also, good to use when she pressures with attack strings, take a hit and ultra her punk ass.

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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Yeah I play Gief and Sim, and Gief beats Sim really convincingly.

    That's mostly what Chun has up close, her mixups between low shorts xx trouble, quick overhead, and throw. But her low shorts xx ex legs combo takes off a real big chunk of your life and there are a lot of places on the screen where it sets you right up for more pressure and if you try to teleport, her walk speed is fast enough to get right up next to you, if not to actually punish you. But anyway, the name of the game is don't let her up close.

    And yeah, focusing through some fireballs to get ultra is really useful, since Sim's ultra is so good. I already think Chun shouldn't jump at you, but if you have ultra loaded, then she basically shouldn't think about the word "jump" at all.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Ryu: 6-4
    Ken: 6-4
    Blanka: 5.5-4.5
    Zangief: 3.5-6.5
    Guile: 5.5-4.5
    Honda: 6-4
    Chun: 5.5-4.5
    Claw: 4-6
    Boxer: 4-6
    Sagat: 56-4
    Dictator: 4-6
    Abel: 5.5-4.5
    Viper: 6-4
    Rufus: 5-5
    Fuerte: 4.5-5.5
    Akuma: 4-6

    I still think Gief beats Sim, but maybe 3-7 is overstating how much of a baste this matchup is. If Sim gets knocked down in the corner the round is still essentially over, and Gief still has answers for most of the ways Sim keeps him out, but I guess I think Gief has a harder time of getting in now than I did before. Jumping roundhouse is solid, and while the wheel of antiairs is more even than I'd like it to be, Sim still has the advantage on it.
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  • A-DhalsimA-Dhalsim GrandMaster Fro Joined: Posts: 1,274
    lol 3.5/6.5 man I guess I dont see what u could possibly do even if u have me in the corner. What do u have to stop me? U going to walk up and spd me? gonna keep larieting? I can keep u back with B+Forward on the ground all day, u still have to guess or blindly do some rash move cause u arent gonna keep walking at me thats for sure. Jumping is out of the question as well, that is just giving me a free teleport out of corner.

    There is just nothing gief can do, the match hasnt changed in 20 years lol

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  • Sonic_e7Sonic_e7 Joined: Posts: 77
    Abel poking trap against dhalsim

    This is my first post. Could someone give me some tips on how to get out of a abel poking trap... recently there is a this irritating abel that does lp,lp,lp,lk,mk, dash in and continue. mixing up with the command grab sometimes. This situation gets even more troublesome in corners, is there a way to escape this? is there a move that can trade hit or something?
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Abel: 5.5-4.5
    Akuma: 4-6
    Blanka: 5.5-4.5
    Boxer: 5-5
    Chun: 5.5-4.5
    Claw: 4-6
    Dictator: 4-6
    Fuerte: 4.5-5.5
    Guile: 6-4
    Honda: 6-4
    Ken: 6-4
    Rufus: 6-4
    Ryu: 6-4
    Sagat: 6-4
    Viper: 6-4
    Zangief: 3.5-6.5




    Yeah, I'm sticking with that Gief matchup for now, probably mostly because I haven't been playing much lately (lots of crap going on) and haven't gotten to play Sim-Gief since I last changed it. I just think Gief has a better time getting in than a bunch of characters and he ruins Sim a lot worse than anyone else when he gets up close. Zangief can reversal spd all of Sim's back+ normals except back+short, and he can ultra even that. He can also reversal spd all of Sim's down-back kicks and all your slides if you slide at that distance, and since down-back+fierce is safe but has kinda slow startup, that means the one normal you have up close that doesn't result in instant spd on block is down-back+strong, which loses to, you guessed it, lariat. And don't think you can cancel down-back+strong into anything, because Gief gets a free lariat/hand/spd if you cancel into fire and a free lariat/hand if you cancel into jab flame. And down-back+strong doesn't have enough pushback to get Gief out of spd range unless you did it when he's already halfway out of spd range and it doesn't have enough advantage on block to go into any other moves after that, so, what do you do after? Gief can do a lariat after blocking down-back+strong and not have to worry too much about the consequences. In short, when Gief's up close, he can spd everything, and what he can't spd, he can lariat, because yeah, he really can lariat everything. Basically, as Gief, it's all about spinning, whether with the opponent's face in your crotch or with your hands in his face. Anyways, Abel.


    Like in almost every matchup, first you have to get your wheel-of-antiairs down, which is less of a wheel and more of a pretty-certain-thing against Abel. Back+roundhouse, roundhouse, jumping strong, or slide if he's far, back+strong or back+roundhouse if he's close, slide if he does close or far early jumping forward, slide beats everything (although don't do roundhouse slide unless you seem him jumping with an attack, otherwise he's gonna land into blocking and punish your super-unsafe sweep; mix up between short slide, forward slide, and forward slide to down-back+jab, and then mix up between throw, cancel short/down-back+jab into yoga fire, or teleport back). Abel shouldn't be jumping in on you much.

    This means he has to approach you on the ground, which he can actually do better than most characters. Be aware of his roll ranges and hesitate to throw out very laggy moves like standing fierce and roundhouse if you think he might roll-throw. If you see him rolling and you're at a range where he'll roll in front of you, put out a good back+ normal or slide. If instead he tries to get in with focus-dash-focus-dash, put out an ex fire, do back+forward xx fire, or do strong flame (strong because it only has 2 more frames of startup than jab but stays out longer, recovers faster, does more damage, and is -1 on block instead of -6). When he's far away, you want to have a yoga fire out there most of the time to force him into doing something unless he has ultra, which he can use on reaction to beat fires if he's within like 2/3 of a screen of you.

    If you're caught in short-short-short and toward+forward madness, yeah, that can suck. Your best bets are a) don't let him that close in the first place, and b) play it cautiously. You get stunned really easily, so it's just not worth eating a couple of those because you might very well fall into stars. It's better to block, keep your fingers on throw tech, and backdash or back teleport using the down-back trick. If you're pretty sure he's going toward+forward, you can do focus to back dash as well. Once you back up, try to set up a fireball if he doesn't have ultra, or else jump back into whatever or back+forward, down-back+fierce, or slide into mixup to preemptively beat his pokes. You don't have a move that beats his pokes once his pokes are in their active frames, but yeah, those can beat his pokes if you do them preemptively. And it's crucial to try to push him away from you once you get out of this, since like you say, you definitely don't want to get cornered.
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  • Sonic_e7Sonic_e7 Joined: Posts: 77
    I was wondering if there is a better poke, i use b.lk to trade hit for the distance sometimes. Is there something to do against an anti air cross up after I'm on the ground. when against abel, after the cross up, its that poke trap again, he could not be thrown due to some block stun.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Back+short can be good, yeah, and if he doesn't have ultra you can cancel it into yoga fire to start pushing him back out again.

    If he knocks you down and goes for crossup jumping forward, you can either teleport out by teleporting behind where he jumped from or get out by doing focus into dashing into the direction he jumped from.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Updated:
    CHAR       DEC 25
    Abel       5.5-4.5
    Akuma      4.5-5.5
    Blanka     6-4
    Boxer      5-5
    Chun       5.5-4.5
    Claw       4-6
    Dictator   6-4
    Fuerte     4.5-5.5
    Guile      6-4
    Honda      6-4
    Ken        6-4
    Rufus      5.5-4.5
    Ryu        6-4
    Sagat      6-4
    Viper      6-4
    Zangief    3.5-6.5
    Total#     86
    Total%     .5375
    
    Rearranged! Total# is the total number of wins across all his matchups that I think he gets, and Total% is that number divided by the maximum possible number of wins (160). I bumped the Blanka and Akuma matches up a bit.

    Did this in the Gief thread, figured I'd do it here too. This is how my view of the matchups has changed since the game came out:
    CHAR       DEC 25    NOV 24    OCT 30
    Abel       5.5-4.5   5.5-4.5   5-5
    Akuma      4.5-5.5   4-6       5-5
    Blanka     6-4       6-4       6-4
    Boxer      5-5       4-6       4-6
    Chun       5.5-4.5   5-5       5-5
    Claw       4-6       4-6       4-6
    Dictator   6-4       4-6       5-5
    Fuerte     4.5-5.5   5-5       5-5
    Guile      6-4       4.5-5.5   4-6
    Honda      6-4       6-4       6-4
    Ken        6-4       6-4       6-4
    Rufus      5.5-4.5   5-5       6-4
    Ryu        6-4       5.5-4.5   5-5
    Sagat      6-4       5.5-4.5   3-7
    Viper      6-4       6-4       6-4
    Zangief    3.5-6.5   3-7       4-6
    Total#     86        79        79
    Total%     .5375     .4938     .4938
    

    I know I'm not the only or the best Sim player out there. Why don't you other guys post up what you think?
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Updated:
    CHAR       JAN 9
    Abel       5.5-4.5
    Akuma      4.5-5.5
    Blanka     6-4
    Boxer      4.5-5.5
    Chun       5.5-4.5
    Claw       4.5-5.5
    Dictator   6-4
    Fuerte     4-6
    Guile      6-4
    Honda      6-4
    Ken        6-4
    Rufus      5-5
    Ryu        6-4
    Sagat      6-4
    Viper      4.5-5.5
    Zangief    3.5-6.5
    Total#     83.5
    Total%     .5219
    
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