Warriors Fate: Street Fighter story thread, revived

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  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 1,029
    On the subject of bullet-dodging, let's think of this from a logical point of view, like I touched on a little bit in a previous post. From the numbers Sagatryu posted, the bullets seem to average around the 1,000 MPH mark... that's 16 miles a minute... which is 0.27 miles a second. One mile is 5,280 feet... 27% of that is 1,425.6 feet in a second... in ONE SECOND. An American Football field is 360 feet on the long side... which means a bullet practically travels over three Football fields in ONE SECOND. That is incredibly fast... you have to have a reaction time of a small fraction of a second and divine reflexes to match to dodge one of these things if the shooter is a competent marksman. Saying anybody below Tier 3 can dodge bullets seems ludicrous to me, and I even had difficulty accepting some of those in Tier 3 would be able to...

    Like-wise, saying that Ryu can dodge bullets sounds ludicrous for the same reason. If we accept that he can, where should we draw the line of who can and who can't? Tier 3? Tier 5? I feel that a character like Cammy HAS to dodge bullets much better than Ryu because of overal agility and gunfight experience. Then again, the SF story often surprises me with how silly it is that kind of aspects, so who knows.

    Btw, where did the bullet-dodging thing come from? Is it explicit or an extrapolation of the comment that said that the SFA movie had the most accurate adaptation of the SF superpowers?
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    the interveiw were that comes from spefically says this

    yeah by tiime of SF3 Ryu can dodge bullets, then it goes on mention Ryu and Gouki bursting apart wooden dummies and Ken cracking a cybrogs jaw with a Shinryuken.

    edit: also Gen can dodge bullets since it actually a exmaple of him doing it in the plot guide.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Daemos, the official Street Fighter 4 Training Guide implies Dictator's new body>Final Bison, but his opening Vanilla Prologue seems to imply he got out before his body was able to be modified to withstand the full-extent of his Psycho Power.

    That's weird... Final Vega floats and stuff, yet SF4 Vega walks like his SF2 incarnation... that's a non-gameplay way of showing power, as mentioned in the plot guide. Plus SF4 Vega doesn't do things like the Psycho Shot or the full-screen Psycho Crusher... about the closest he gets to the former is his Ultra, the Psycho Punisher. The moves may not have been included for balance issues, but it sure doesn't show in-game he's more powerful than Final Vega... he's definitely more powerful than his SF2 incarnation, though.
    A fighter's potential cannot simply be unlimited in and of itself, we are made of energy, you simply can't create energy from thin air in terms of physics, this means that there has to be some boundaries to how big of a hadouken Ryu can fire at any single time. Now are these boundaries related to Ryu's training and discipline alone? Or is there a biological aspect to the manipulation of ki in the SF universe.

    Dictator has mastered his psycho power, ruthlessly intelligent and an ambitious martial artist/fighter before he ever intended on ruling the world. Yet he recognized that even though he has mastered psycho power, he knew that his ability to manipulate this energy by sheer will and thought IS limited by his physical form. Bison was able to manipulate in Alpha 3 absurd amounts of power but his physical form simply could not handle it, no matter how strong our bodies get, human tissue is still fragile relative to other objects in the universe and inevitably it comes back to you. Now perhaps a fighter CAN train their bodies to withstand absurd amounts of power, but there has to be a threshold, the human factor has to kick in at one point.

    This is where the science in SF comes in; to be a great fighter you can either be disciplined, train hard all your life and sacrifice everything possibly in some cases your morality and humanity and if your hunger for power is absolute, you would use ANY means to achieve said power, even augmenting on a genetic level or something as simple as a cybernetic implant or two. The choices are endless for the fighters, in the case of Dictator at some point he either grew lazy or accepted the reality that no matter how hard he or anyone trains, there are certain obstacles that simply cannot be overcome, like laws of physics and he chose to bend the rules rather than break them, this the same character who has mastered the ability, be it martial arts or wizardry like Oro to pop out of one body and possess the body of another, in essence a poor man's immortality.

    Ninja Edit-

    I completely forgot about the goddess Ingrid (and with good reason) perhaps she interfered because Dictator was about to break one of "rules" and he took his bending too far? Though I still personally don't see her as an SF character (pure denial really).

    Also Gill and Urien were candidates because they displayed exceptional skill and intelligence but were further cultivated into great fighters with the use of martial arts, genetic manipulation etc. Dictator is the same really in a way, a martial artist like Gouki hungry for power and he dismembered his morality and humanity because he saw them as expendable and burdens to his agenda eventually his path lead him to the pursuit of power in general be it political, criminal and anything that would further enhance his power. Yet even though his organization is hellbent on world domination, Dictator still wants to be a great martial artist and still is focused on Ryu for this purpose. I would say he took the long winded path of training AND pursued shortcuts (mostly to overcome his humanity, the obstacle of body, aging, decay and time) as well unlike Seth for example whose very existence is a shortcut.

    Juri was cultivated into a fighter by SIN/Shadaloo, the cybernetic enhancements I think are intended to amplify her abilities exponentially, without them one could argue that she would be on par with Cammy and the Dolls, who did not receive these latest enhancements developed by SIN in Dic's absence.

    I think a better way of looking at tiers is not necessarily by comparing fighters to each other, rather by looking at their real, perceived or possible extraordinary abilities based on what we know of the said fighter. This very system is employed to categorize and rate extraterrestrial civilizations relative to us, where a category 0 civilization has just begun to tap natural resources (us) and a category 3 civilization would harness the power of entire galaxies and colonize them. Getting back on topic, this is a better way of understanding tiers of fighters in the SF universe, where a category zero fighter is a real life martial artist, while a category 2 fighter for example could destroy islands with a punch, or survive the pressure of deep sea or outer space, is seemingly immortal etc. a category 3 fighter for example would be able perhaps to destroy the entire planet (no SF yet to fill this category).

    Thanks for that insight, that makes a lot of sense about human boundaries. I missed out on physics, so I didn't get to learn such lessons. :(

    Though, I have to point out that the tiers are the way they are because, without hard data, there would be too much arguing and speculation... there already is, actually. One character defeating another when they don't hold back and without any limiting factors is a pretty good indication of who is stronger than someone else... Capcom put a lot of thought into it, as nobody in the lower tiers could defeat anyone even a few above without an edge of some sort, be it another fighter helping, something to boost their power, or to weaken their opponent's.
    obviously not. Oro stated in his ending with proper training from him that Ryu would be strong enough for him to use both hands in FIFTEEN years. Oro would not have needed to use both hands in the tourney against him.

    Thanks for clearing that up, I forgot about that statement. If he can beat Ryu with one hand, it just shows how powerful Oro truly is... he's probably on par with Gouki when he uses both hands.
    Like-wise, saying that Ryu can dodge bullets sounds ludicrous for the same reason. If we accept that he can, where should we draw the line of who can and who can't? Tier 3? Tier 5? I feel that a character like Cammy HAS to dodge bullets much better than Ryu because of overal agility and gunfight experience. Then again, the SF story often surprises me with how silly it is that kind of aspects, so who knows.

    Who's to say Ryu hasn't had experience dodging bullets as well? An interview in SF Eternal (I forget who said it, I think it might've been Shoei, IIRC) said that gang fights would be something normal to Ryu... he could've gotten experience dodging bullets there. Just remember that the way the characters are depicted in-game is not the same as how they are depicted in the plot... it's possible that Ryu is actually faster than Cammy storyline-wise, but doing this in-game would throw off the balance and restrict the Tier 1 and 2 characters as the only ones worth playing as competitively. Ryu Final does a pretty good job at illustrating this point... the match between Ryu and Sagat (two Tier 2 characters) was basically over in one second... Oro and some bystanders were watching, but Oro was the only one who saw the multiple blows that ensued, everyone else just saw Ryu crash into a statue (which was the aftermath.)

    Though admittedly, if there were any lower-than-3-tiered characters that I would believe could dodge bullets, Cammy would probably be one of the few I could believe, if anything because she is an artificial being with abilities beyond those of normal humans.

    Let's not forget that for certain plot points like this, you cannot accept your preconceptions about the plot based on how the characters play in-game. Characters are the way they are in-game to achieve balance, but in the plot it could be something different entirely. If you don't believe me, find any given tiers for a game and compare them to the plot tiers, they're often drastically different.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Preview of things to come:

    Between the mess of NG/2I info and the much more deprived pile for 3S, you'll be seeing the ultimate SF4 character relations chart posted here and in the next guide update, in the same fashion as those for SF2, SF3, and the Zero series which are already within the guide. One heads-up tidbit: the chart presented in Famitsu's blog entry is currently the latest-statement version authorized by CJ with overriding ability.

    That is all.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Preview of things to come:

    Between the mess of NG/2I info and the much more deprived pile for 3S, you'll be seeing the ultimate SF4 character relations chart posted here and in the next guide update, in the same fashion as those for SF2, SF3, and the Zero series which are already within the guide. One heads-up tidbit: the chart presented in Famitsu's blog entry is currently the latest-statement version authorized by CJ with overriding ability.

    That is all.

    Keep up the good work, Vas! :D I'm especially looking forward to the SF3 info... Gill knows we've been depraved of it for so long...

    So I'm assuming the SF4 relations chart you'll be posting will be more detailed than the Famitsu one? And will the worthless links still be kept in there?

    I was actually working on a character relations chart that spanned every SF character... unfortunately, it got too messy, so I gave up on it. :( Maybe I could start from scratch and try it again...
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Keep up the good work, Vas! :D I'm especially looking forward to the SF3 info... Gill knows we've been depraved of it for so long...

    So I'm assuming the SF4 relations chart you'll be posting will be more detailed than the Famitsu one? And will the worthless links still be kept in there?

    I was actually working on a character relations chart that spanned every SF character... unfortunately, it got too messy, so I gave up on it. :( Maybe I could start from scratch and try it again...

    Yes and yes.

    I wouldn't try to make a chart covering more than two seishi games together with emphasis on the later of the two. CJ hasn't done that, and thus neither do I when pulling multiple scraps together. Times change, people change, feelings and relations come and go. Hence the 3 and later on 4 charts within the guide.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Projectile guess sizes

    1 Hadoken ( about the size of a basket ball?!?)

    2 Sonic Boom ( the size of golf ball?!? maybe even small then that, anyways the sonic boom is smaller then the Hadoken )

    3 Air Slasher ( about the same size as a sonic boom maybe even smaller?)

    edit: due to their speeds and small sizes the Air Slasher and Sonic Boom would be impossible for normal eye movement to track.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • The Lone DragonThe Lone Dragon perverted feminist Joined: Posts: 3,826
    Bullet-dodging is another thing altogether... it's rare when anybody can do it, as you basically have to react within a fraction of a second, which is why I do not see anybody but Tier 3 and above doing that. Sure, the other ones are capable of lifting heavy objects, killing large animals, and throwing punches not being able to be picked up on camera. These feats have been achieved by actual people... heck, Mas Oyama killed bulls in one punch. It seems like generally, those in Tier 3 and above push the bar beyond that, to the point where no actual person does a lot of the things they do, but is possible within the constraints of the SF universe. How many real people have honest-to-goodness dodged a bullet coming straight at them without it being sheer luck or dodging before the trigger was pulled?

    Well, that's basically why I brought up that Birdie v Dolls account...since, for all intents and purposes, Birdie actually DOES dodge bullets. Or rather, he demonstrates the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets, since lifting trains with his chain should otherwise give a well trained doll more than enough time to shoot him.

    Now, I know it's not exactly "dodging a bullet after it's fired" which would raise a question of reaction time. But, this is one the few official accounts we have that even remotely deals with the issue of bullet dodging, so we have to extrapolate from the limited materials we can find.

    Ah, found it: http://shoryuken.com/f12/warriors-fate-street-fighter-story-thread-revived-173/index470.html#post7109044

    Okay, so first a doll points a gun directly at his forehead, close range. I'm sure the other dolls had guns pointed at him, too. He then whips the dolls away with his chain before he can be shot.

    Then the dolls recover and fire their guns. Birdie then lifts a train a crushes a bunch of them before he can be shot.

    I don't know...in the absence of an explicit statement saying "Birdie can dodge bullets", which would be unlikely, I think this scene should be somewhat convincing. At the very least, it shows that he can be surrounded by genetically engineered super soldiers with guns at close range and not get shot.
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  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Projectile guess sizes

    1 Hadoken ( about the size of a basket ball?!?)

    2 Sonic Boom ( the size of golf ball?!? maybe even small then that, anyways the sonic boom is smaller then the Hadoken )

    3 Air Slasher ( about the same size as a sonic boom maybe even smaller?)

    edit: due to their speeds and small sizes the Air Slasher and Sonic Boom would be impossible for normal eye movement to track.

    Is it even possible to evaluate the size of projectiles? I always thought of ki as something similar to fire, where it can be concentrated but not really contained, and it dissipates once it reaches out too far from its source (Dan's Gadouken is a great indication of this... those with projectiles that reach beyond the screen's just dissipate where you cannot see it.) Let's not forget that sometimes the size of the projectiles change with the games...
    Well, that's basically why I brought up that Birdie v Dolls account...since, for all intents and purposes, Birdie actually DOES dodge bullets. Or rather, he demonstrates the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets, since lifting trains with his chain should otherwise give a well trained doll more than enough time to shoot him.

    Now, I know it's not exactly "dodging a bullet after it's fired" which would raise a question of reaction time. But, this is one the few official accounts we have that even remotely deals with the issue of bullet dodging, so we have to extrapolate from the limited materials we can find.

    Ah, found it: http://shoryuken.com/f12/warriors-fa...ml#post7109044

    Okay, so first a doll points a gun directly at his forehead, close range. I'm sure the other dolls had guns pointed at him, too. He then whips the dolls away with his chain before he can be shot.

    Then the dolls recover and fire their guns. Birdie then lifts a train a crushes a bunch of them before he can be shot.

    I don't know...in the absence of an explicit statement saying "Birdie can dodge bullets", which would be unlikely, I think this scene should be somewhat convincing. At the very least, it shows that he can be surrounded by genetically engineered super soldiers with guns at close range and not get shot.

    I would like to point your attention to the part of the excerpt in question:

    "Drag-iron's finger moves in unison as the chain from Birdie's hand bellowed,
    as it warps like a whip the coat girls are sent flying.
    For the chain under the scrap wood entangles a buried train's scrap chassis.
    Nimbly in a rematched gun posture the coat group fires. Heavy shots
    reverberate sparks are scattered, the hoodlums duck their heads.
    An enormous steel chunk intercepts the bullets. With Birdie's superhuman
    strength having dragged up the train it's slapped on top of the coat group.
    For nearby gunpowder smoke and earth is become totally beaten the hell out
    of it."

    Before this excerpt, the "Dolls" emerge and surround Birdie, with one (likely Février) pointing a gun to Birdie's head, and from what I can tell afterward, Birdie's henchmen snatch the guns from them.

    Read this section carefully... it states nothing about dodging bullets. Rather, Birdie deflected them using confusion and train junk. This situation basically proves two things:

    1) Birdie is not an idiot... this was already heavily implied in the plot, this just proves it.
    2) You hesitate, you lose... this is true while playing Street Fighter as well... it's a lesson I can't seem to learn in it. :(

    Had Février (or whoever it was) shot Birdie on the spot, the troupe would've succeeded in the mission. But because they hesitated, probably due to overconfidence of outnumbering and surrounding him, Birdie was able to surprise them with a chain attack, and while they were flustered and confused firing without the full extent of their accuracy, Birdie was able to deflect their bullets and counterattack with a wrecked train.

    If I'm wrong in any of that, please correct me, but that's what I gathered from it. It specifically says the bullets were deflected, not dodged... and I'm sure nobody was aiming properly due to Birdie's surprise attack.

    My case still stands.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Birdie's henchmen snatch the guns from them.

    They do no such thing.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    They do no such thing.

    Sorry, my mistake... ._. These translated excerpts were always difficult for me to read...

    Oh, I found where I made the mistake... I skimmed it a little toward the end and missed this part:

    ""Hey! Saw that didn'cha back me up! Snatch the guns from those brats!"
    While swinging the chain Birdie exclaims. For the hoodlums unable to stand
    up due to fear or surprise stuck on appalled facial expressions draw back
    from the situation."

    So Birdie ordered the henchmen to take their guns, but they got scared and ran off instead?

    Either way, it doesn't seem really relevant to the bullet-dodging argument with what happened afterward... as Birdie still dodges no bullets, he just prepares his "shield" again.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    So Birdie ordered the henchmen to take their guns, but they got scared and ran off instead?

    Precisely.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Thanks Vas. :D I was curious... do you have an opinion for who is able to dodge bullets or not? We've had this discussion going for a while, but I don't recall seeing what you thought about it.

    EDIT: I remembered something else that I was wondering about... wasn't there something in the Plot Guide before about Dudley having an American partner or rival or something? And wasn't there something else about Alex defeating Bison (boxer)? Were these things found to be non-canon or something?
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Birdie swing around a wrecked train with his chains at high speeds ( if he did swung it around at high speeds) has more to doing with strength then it does speed.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Birdie swing around a wrecked train with his chains at high speeds ( if he did swung it around at high speeds) has more to doing with strength then it does speed.

    Precisely my point. ;) He didn't dodge the bullets, he shielded himself from them... to think of doing something like that while guns are pointed at you shows that Birdie has, in addition to his great strength, a vast supply of intelligence and fortitude as well.

    Birdie is Tier 5, and he chose to deflect the bullets rather than dodge them... this could have been for a number of reasons, but two stick out most in my mind: he knew he was physically unable to dodge them and/or deflecting them would be safer than dodging them. Dodging bullets isn't practical unless you can do it successfully pretty much 100% of the time, so even if the lower-tiered characters could dodge bullets, it wouldn't matter if they couldn't do it consistently. This consistency is what I'm shooting for (no pun intended)... who can actually dodge bullets with precision rather than guessing and getting lucky?

    Again, I do not see anybody below Tier 3 performing this feat... perhaps they may get lucky, but to actually knowingly and consistently dodge the bullets is something I don't see them doing... once again, impressive feats such as throwing trains aside.

    EDIT: It's amazing that even though the Plot Guide is readily available, there are very few people who know even the most basic parts of the SF plot... apparently in (I think?) GameInformer and reposted on Capcom-Unity, there's a belief going around that Ryu won the SF2 tournament. :/ I also read on an old blog entry that Ryu defeated not only Sagat, but Gouki and Vega too... the former of which really only happened in Ryu Final and the latter with some help, he certainly didn't do it alone. He also said that Ken defeated Gill... yeah, right. :P As much as the mangas are great, people have to understand that they're not canon... even one of my instructors in college who was a huge SF fan thought they were... *sigh*
  • The Lone DragonThe Lone Dragon perverted feminist Joined: Posts: 3,826
    Birdie swing around a wrecked train with his chains at high speeds ( if he did swung it around at high speeds) has more to doing with strength then it does speed.
    Read this section carefully... it states nothing about dodging bullets.

    It's about both strength and speed.

    My point wasn't so much that Birdie dodged bullets in this account, but as I said earlier "he demonstrates the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets".

    It's more physics. Basically, if he can move a giant train (which weighs much much more than him) INTO the line of fire just as the dolls start firing at him, he should be able to move his own body OUT of the line of fire just as quickly (or technically, way, way, WAY more quickly) in a similar situation.
    But because they hesitated, probably due to overconfidence of outnumbering and surrounding him, Birdie was able to surprise them with a chain attack, and while they were flustered and confused firing without the full extent of their accuracy, Birdie was able to deflect their bullets and counterattack with a wrecked train.

    I dunno, that doesn't sound like the dolls to me. As super soldiers, they're programmed to show no emotion, so overconfidence and frazzled nerves don't really sound appropriate, do they?
    Also in the guide.

    Ah, cool. I have much more guide exploring to do, it seems!
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  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    It's about both strength and speed.

    My point wasn't so much that Birdie dodged bullets in this account, but as I said earlier "he demonstrates the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets".

    It's more physics. Basically, if he can move a giant train (which weighs much much more than him) INTO the line of fire just as the dolls start firing at him, he should be able to move his own body OUT of the line of fire just as quickly (or technically, way, way, WAY more quickly) in a similar situation.

    I see where you're coming from, I'm just kinda finding it hard to believe that Birdie could move that fast... then again, maybe I'm just wrong about a lot of these things. :( I know he's got impressive arm strength at the least, but I'm not entirely sure if that strength carries over to his legs as well.

    It seems everyone's got a better understanding of physics than I do, but I certainly do understand that a bullet travels extremely fast, and to actually dodge them is a remarkable feat... I guess SF isn't really about realism for a lot of stuff, however.
    I dunno, that doesn't sound like the dolls to me. As super soldiers, they're programmed to show no emotion, so overconfidence and frazzled nerves don't really sound appropriate, do they?

    You have a point there. The fact still remains that whoever was holding the gun to Birdie hesitated, even if it was just for a second. She didn't have to tell Birdie she was ordered to eliminate him, she could have just done it. Either I was attaching too much humanity to the Dolls, or they have more than most give them credit for.

    I can't help but compare the Dolls to Heero Yuy of New Mobile Report: Gundam Wing... like the Dolls, Heero was trained to be the perfect soldier (though he wasn't brainwashed), yet he was still human deep down. He had feelings, but didn't really show them. The Dolls' brainwashing was broken as well, so are they conditioned to the point of having absolutely no emotions, even surprise, or do they still have some of those human traits deep down that come out in extreme situations?

    It seems like the more I dig into these points, the more questions I have... admittedly, I'm still a student in SF plot analysis, but all I can really go by right now is what the Plot Guide states, since I know CoA butchered some of the translations... even SF4, which I thought would've been translated properly, Vas says is only about 70% reliable... the older games are probably worse (just look at Cammy's SF2 ending.) So, I apologize to everyone if I have been unreliable or genuinely wrong in some of my statements... like Ryu, I'm working on bettering myself.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Thanks Vas. :D I was curious... do you have an opinion for who is able to dodge bullets or not? We've had this discussion going for a while, but I don't recall seeing what you thought about it.

    EDIT: I remembered something else that I was wondering about... wasn't there something in the Plot Guide before about Dudley having an American partner or rival or something? And wasn't there something else about Alex defeating Bison (boxer)? Were these things found to be non-canon or something?

    I believe that the higher tier a fighter is, the more easily she could possess the ability to dodge bullets. However, under special circumstances, I wouldn't rule it impossible for someone of a lower tier to have it as well. Stamina, adrenaline and good fortune can all go a long way in the SF universe.

    Besides Ryu by SF3 and Gen, no one else is given the explicit statement treatment. Birdie has ridiculous strength and impressive reaction time, but without his shields I doubt that he would've gotten away from the female squad unscathed. That's not the same as being able to move your entire person to sidestep a blindingly fast projectile.
    Cammy and the other girls I could possibly see as having such an ability, however it's not as if Vega was counting on it or he wouldn't have ordered them outfitted with protection for their vitals within their uniforms. So I dunno.

    Yeah, those two were from the same tabloid-style format that CJ stamped with a fictional date of Feb. 30.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    you know I wonder what Bridie would do if Deejay and Guile gang up on him and start to constantly throw Sonic Booms and Air slashers at him. cause if Biride can't dodge Deejay's air slasher or Guile's sonic boom there is no way he can dodge a bullet.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    I believe that the higher tier a fighter is, the more easily she could possess the ability to dodge bullets. However, under special circumstances, I wouldn't rule it impossible for someone of a lower tier to have it as well. Stamina, adrenaline and good fortune can all go a long way in the SF universe.

    Besides Ryu by SF3 and Gen, no one else is given the explicit statement treatment. Birdie has ridiculous strength and impressive reaction time, but without his shields I doubt that he would've gotten away from the female squad unscathed. That's not the same as being able to move your entire person to sidestep a blindingly fast projectile.
    Cammy and the other girls I could possibly see as having such an ability, however it's not as if Vega was counting on it or he wouldn't have ordered them outfitted with protection for their vitals within their uniforms. So I dunno.

    Yeah, those two were from the same tabloid-style format that CJ stamped with a fictional date of Feb. 30.

    Thank you doubly. :D It's too bad those are non-canon, though... now I kinda wish I had an older version of the Plot Guide still with those statements...
    you know I wonder what Bridie would do if Deejay and Guile gang up on him and start to constantly throw Sonic Booms and Air slashers at him. cause if Biride can't dodge Deejay's air slasher or Guile's sonic boom there is no way he can dodge a bullet.

    The Sonic Boom actually travels slower than some bullets (768 MPH is the speed of sound, which is how fast the Sonic Boom is), which means the Air Slasher has to be slower than that. That's still remarkably fast, but when fractions of seconds are involved, several hundred MPH can make a lot of difference.

    But I have to wonder, would Guile and Dee Jay have the physical endurance to perform such a feat? At first I questioned of whether those projectiles would be as much of a threat as bullets, but the Sonic Boom is pretty powerful, and the Air Slasher apparently is as well. Birdie would probably have more time to react to the Air Slasher if he's as perceptive as I think he is, but the Sonic Boom would basically be the same as dodging slightly slower bullets. Though, the size of the projectiles might factor in there somehow as well...

    If Birdie could keep it up until Guile and Dee Jay were drained, they would be sitting ducks, to say the least.

    On a random side note... why in the name of all that is sensible does Dee Jay have a projectile to begin with? At first, ki-based projectiles were a symbol of being pretty darn powerful (Ryu, Ken, and Sagat were the only SF1 characters that had 'em, add on only Guile and Dhalsim for the earlier versions of SF2)... then something happened where projectile attacks didn't seem to make sense. You notice hardly anybody below Tier 4 has ki-based projectiles... the only ones that do are Dan and Sean (due to their Ansatsuken training, though neither can do it consistently right) and Remy (which I'll excuse because it was probably more of a gameplay thing to make him a Guile clone)... Dee Jay is the only other oddball. I'm assuming it was because he was designed by CoA, but I personally never saw the point of giving a kickboxer a projectile...
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    acutally you got that wrong because here's what it states about the Sonic Boom in the plot guide oh and that's the speed of the Air Slasher not the Sonic Boom
    The sonic boom is actually created by using ki. Nash will concentrate
    his ki into his hand, arm or limb and thrusts it at a speed faster than
    sound. When someone is hit by the sonic boom, it'll feel like getting
    smashed into a brick wall. It's also colder than Russia's winter and is
    also supposed to be the fastest projectile story-wise. The games don't show
    this at all though.

    mach speeds

    608 miles per hour ( Mach 0.8 / Transonic)

    761 miles per hour ( Mach 1 / Sonic )

    837 miles per hour ( Mach 1.1 )

    913 miles per hour ( Mach 1.2)

    989 miles per hour ( Mach 1.3)

    1,065 miles per hour ( Mach 1.4)

    1,141 miles per hour ( Mach 1.5)

    1,217 miles per hour ( Mach 1.6)

    1,294 miles per hour ( Mach 1.7)

    1,370 miles per hour ( Mach 1.8

    1,446 miles per hour ( Mach 1.9)

    1,522 miles per hour ( Mach 2 / Supersonic)

    1,598 miles per hour ( Mach 2.1)

    1674 miles per hour ( Mach 2.2)

    1,750 miles per hour ( Mach 2.3)

    1,826 miles per hour ( Mach 2.4)

    1,903 miles per hour ( Mach 2.5)

    1,979 miles per hour ( Mach 2.6)

    2,055 miles per hour ( Mach 2.7)

    2,131 miles per hour ( Mach 2.8)

    2,207 miles per hour ( Mach 2.9)

    2,283 miles per hour ( Mach 3)
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • mikrosmikros Yo, Joe! Joined: Posts: 1,029
    it's possible that Ryu is actually faster than Cammy storyline-wise
    I know. That?s why I ended my post saying that it?s hard to estimate how lame the plot is in regards to those aspects. If Ryu is faster and a better gunfighter than Cammy, and stronger than Zangief, that makes those characters obsolete for all fighting purposes. What?s the point in making a strength-based character like Zangief if Akuma is able to blow mountains up? It?s no wonder that Zangief is just a joke character and a punching bag nowadays. That?s the reason why the SF anime movies except the SFII one suck even harder than the live action ones.

    After the II series, SF has just been gradually ripping off the Old Lame Exponential Power Level Scale from DragonBall. The problem is, in DB?s case it is forgiven because DB is a work of immense genius; in SF, it?s just retarded.

    But I derail. Back on topic, yeah, I know, Ryu might be more agile than Cammy. Well, as I said (or meant), characters like Cammy, Chun Li, Guile, Viper or Rolento shall dodge/deflect bullets much better than Ryu, but of course it all comes down to how bad Capcom is willing to make the story, something that I tend to underestimate, so I possibly wrong.
    Let's not forget that for certain plot points like this, you cannot accept your preconceptions about the plot based on how the characters play in-game. Characters are the way they are in-game to achieve balance, but in the plot it could be something different entirely. If you don't believe me, find any given tiers for a game and compare them to the plot tiers, they're often drastically different.
    In SFII, the 8 characters were intended to have a comparable fighting prowess overall, storyline-wise, with each character's strengths balancing the weaknesses, so that they could beat the rest if played their cards properly. Someone in this thread pointed that the makers said that they had designed each of them as the main character because no one was supposed to be clearly over the others. That was retconned long ago, sadly.
  • Doctrine DarkDoctrine Dark Yum Yum Joined: Posts: 7,346
    You know, every time I play-through Super Street Fighter 4 or Street Fighter 2, I get this weird feeling of no one actually losing in the tournament. That's an odd statement, but with the scarce amount of information regarding those tournaments (At least Street Fighter 3 gave us some details on the tournament) winners and losers, it's hard to tell.

    Guile (or Chunners) is hinted at winning the Street Fighter 2 tournament, but is that because he owned Dictator, specifically? Or because he actually defeated all of his challengers, got to Dictator, then defeated him? I say that because with how much hate Guile has for Dictator, it wouldn't be surprising if he opposed him once he saw him and beat him down from there. Since Dictator stated Guile was >himself from Zero 3, it had to have been a battle instead of a simple scuffle, though.

    We know Cammy and T.Hawk also likely put Dictator down on his ass, but they clearly didn't win the tournament, or hinted at doing such. The most information we have is Blanka fighting a military uniformed fighter (Likely Guile), Guile defeating Dictator, Gouki obliterating Dictator (Might've been retconned, but I still believe it took place) with the SGS, and that seems to be it.

    I understand the SIN tournament not making sense, due to most of the warriors being more focused on the BLECE (Which was never even brought up in Super) instead of the actual battles. It's funny just imagining how Ryu did, how Sagat did, how Claw did, or how Ken did in the Street Fighter 2 tournament without having any information.

    However, if Dictator got attacked (By Gouki or whatever managed to erase him) while the tournament was still going down, then it would probably make sense to assume that most warriors didn't get a chance to experience the full-extent of the tournament. It would've ended once the host (Dictator) went down before the climax.

    Basically, in your opinions, how do you think those four actually did in the tournament? And if they lost, who would you think they lost to? I also wonder why Gen didn't enter the World Warrior tournament? I guess the best in-universe answer would be that he was too sick to fight at full-strength.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
    PSN: SP_Wesker215/XBL: SP Wesker215
    Super Street Fighter Plot Guide II
    Street Fighter V: Cammy, Learning Menat Marvel: Captain Marvelous/Thanos DBFZ: Gohan/Freeza/Trunks
    Guilty Gear Revelator: Venom King of Fighters XIV: Hein/Mature/Kyo
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    speaking of bullet dodging SuperCapCom here are some other fictional characters who can dodge bullets

    1 Daredevil , yes Marvel's Daredevil can dodge bullets

    2 Gambit

    3 Task Master

    4 Iron Fist ( prime example of a high end bullet timer)

    5 Spider-Man

    6 Young Solid Snake

    7 Batgirl ( Cassandra Cain)

    8 Albert Wesker

    9 Mr. Gordons

    10 Remo Williams ( novel)

    edit: Remo Williams is fast , really freaking fast. so fast infact that he could blitz every one above Mr. Gordons before they could even relealite.

    11 Gabriel Yulaw

    12 King Bradley ( FMA Manga / Brotherhood)

    Bradley's bullet dodging feat

    Brotherhood anime

    - King Bradley Vs Greeed Part 1/3 English Sub (Captions) [HD

    - King Bradley Vs Greeed Part 2/3 English Sub (Captions) [HD

    - King Bradley Vs Greeed Part 3/3 English Sub (Captions) [HD

    13 Shang Chi
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Well we were on the topic of cosplay before. Here's one of me as the very inspiring, Ryu:
    http://a.imageshack.us/img59/5339/img0756better2.png


    I'm making a Ryu training video (which will have some fun SF parody jokes on the side.) One version of the video will be for the SF fans out there. The other version will be used for a crazy exercise contest submission. You basically tell the site about new bodyweight exercises and ideas that involve: plyometrics, speed drills, training exercises, callistenics, endurance exercises, etc. You can actually mix many exercises with SF moves and theyll be more functional than the base form of the move :)


    My question is: What has Capcom officially mentioned for what Ryu does for conditioning? We see that he carries big boulders on his back for resistance training. The Street Fighter II Animated Movie showed him rock climbing which is an amazing exercise for the body. Have they ever shown or told about what other training he does? Basically besides fighting, what else does he do in terms of training for physical strength, speed, and accuracy?
    My drawing:
    Mai cheats on Ryu - "Shin Shoryuken!"

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7115525&postcount=252
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It's funny just imagining how Ryu did, how Sagat did, how Claw did, or how Ken did in the Street Fighter 2 tournament without having any information.

    Ryu did make it to the final stage of the Championship, but both Vega and Gouki were already gone.

    Sagat didn't cross paths with Ryu, and once he found out that they probably wouldn't for the entire tournament, he likely just left.

    Balrog who knows.

    Ken managed to meet Chun-Li long enough for both of them learn about each other's post-SF2 futures. When Eliza finally tracked Ken down, Chun-Li was most likely there as well.

    I believe all four did well enough not to be eliminated early or anything of that sort.
    My question is: What has Capcom officially mentioned for what Ryu does for conditioning? We see that he carries big boulders on his back for resistance training. The Street Fighter II Animated Movie showed him rock climbing which is an amazing exercise for the body. Have they ever shown or told about what other training he does? Basically besides fighting, what else does he do in terms of training for physical strength, speed, and accuracy?

    He also does part-time in physical-labor oriented work, such as construction probably.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    I'm sure Capcom didn't give much in-game indication on how well the fighters did in SF2 and SF4 on purpose... let's not forget that everyone has their own impressions of the characters, especially the SF2 cast, who have become video game and pop culture legends. Capcom, rightfully so, has to tread lightly so as not to offend their fans. Still, Vas' answer seems to indicate that they at least gave more info about SF4.

    One thing that always bugged me about the Blanka excerpt is that a "military uniform" could also indicate Vega (dictator) as well, which would match his original SF2 ending. Perhaps that's not the case anymore, but I thought maybe if it were an older account, that might've been the case... I dunno, I'm probably wrong. :/
    speaking of bullet dodging SuperCapCom here are some other fictional characters who can dodge bullets

    Though I don't know a terrible lot about the characters you listed, I did notice you listed a lot of superheroes, in which that sort of feat is normal for them. I know some you listed don't exactly have superpowers, but their feats end up being rather exaggerated regardless, which is true in SF as well, but probably more so in comics. I thought Solid Snake was a super-soldier as well, but maybe my knowledge in the series is not vast enough to comment on him.

    Wesker is somebody I can comment on to a greater extent, however. In Biohazard 1 (Resident Evil 1), it was retconned so he injected himself with what many call the "plot device virus," an experimental virus that would grant him superhuman powers after dying and coming back to life. This took the semi-realism the series exhibited (it's more-so realistic than Silent Hill, at least), and threw it away. Wesker can now do things that we would expect SF characters and superheroes to do... leaping great heights, moving at blindingly fast speeds (including dodging bullets), and punching parasite hosts thirty feet away with a single punch. These sorts of feats were demonstrated rather well in Umbrella Chronicles and Biohazard 5, where he basically became a canon version of Alice from the films. As cool as it is that he's a badass, it broke series conventions and caused me to lose some respect for the series.

    In short, many of the characters you listed are superhuman to begin with, which to me is everyone Tier 3 and above. I believe many of the cast of Dragonball, even the "secondary characters," could dodge bullets as well.
    My question is: What has Capcom officially mentioned for what Ryu does for conditioning? We see that he carries big boulders on his back for resistance training. The Street Fighter II Animated Movie showed him rock climbing which is an amazing exercise for the body. Have they ever shown or told about what other training he does? Basically besides fighting, what else does he do in terms of training for physical strength, speed, and accuracy?

    As Vas said, he does physical labor as well, and it's probably one of the ways he earns money. As you said, probably traveling around and using nature to train is also probably a lot of it. We've seen him do things like punching through waterfalls as well, traveling almost everywhere on foot (which is difficult enough in itself, I know this from experience), and catching leaves to improve his speed and reaction time. I'm sure he does a great amount of meditation as well, and of course his fights could be used to condition himself as well. I'm sure he also practices his moves on a regular basis as well, ala the SF2:AM where he does a Shoryuken on nothing, or perhaps he uses nature for this, such as doing it through a waterfall. Just remember that mental conditioning is just as important, which is why I mentioned meditation, etc.

    If you want some ideas, you may want to see if you can find some ways Mas Oyama conditioned his body, as I'm sure a lot of the things are similar due to Ryu basically being based on him. Mas Oyama basically was a hermit in the mountains for a long time, training under icy waterfalls and kicking trees and whatnot, probably a lot of similar things Ryu would do while traveling about.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm sure Capcom didn't give much in-game indication on how well the fighters did in SF2 and SF4 on purpose... let's not forget that everyone has their own impressions of the characters, especially the SF2 cast, who have become video game and pop culture legends. Capcom, rightfully so, has to tread lightly so as not to offend their fans. Still, Vas' answer seems to indicate that they at least gave more info about SF4.

    Actually the only part about the four fighters' fates posted above which can be credited to CJ for revealing in SF4 is Ken meeting Chun-Li at some point, which didn't end up leading into anything else consequential, important or not. The rest were all there B.O. (Before Ono).
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Actually the only part about the four fighters' fates posted above which can be credited to CJ for revealing in SF4 is Ken meeting Chun-Li at some point, which didn't end up leading into anything else consequential, important or not. The rest were all there B.O. (Before Ono).

    So wait... if Ryu made it to the finals, that means he would've faced off against Guile or Chun-Li? Or would it have been Vega in the finals? I always thought that the tournaments worked similar to what they blatantly showed in Capcom vs. SNK 2, where the normal fighters faced each other and a winner was determined before facing the host of the tournament (Sagat for SF1, Vega for SF2, Seth for SF4, and Gill for SF3.)

    Either way, it does open up some interesting possibilities... I could see Ryu giving Guile or Chun-Li the victory because fighting Vega means more to them than it does to him... Ryu just wanted to fight some strong opponents, probably. If it was supposed to be Vega in the finals and he wasn't there... well, that would explain why there was no announced winner, because the final match never actually happened.
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar The Grumpy Surly One Joined: Posts: 1,092
    When I think about it, I'm not sure what's scarier about that Birdie story. What's scary specifically is not the fact that Birdie and the dolls are not even the strongest SF characters out there. It's the fact that Birdie, who you'd think would be one of the slowest characters, overall power tier or not, is fast enough to use a train to BLOCK bullets before he can be shot under those conditions, or that the dolls, who you'd think would be one of the least durable characters (in SFA3, they are tied with Claw for withstanding the least amount of damage before KO) are able to survive being crushed by a train.

    Really, if even the dolls are THAT durable, it makes me wonder if Ryu, who presumably would be more durable than a doll (if gameplay is any indication. I know that gameplay and story are meant to be separate but Capcom consistently gives Ryu more HP than Cammy), could TANK a bullet hit, not just dodge one. Getting crushed by a train is presumably almost as bad (if not worse) than being shot, after all...

    And of course, for Balrog to be able to kill an elephant with a punch or Cody to punch through concrete, both would probably have to have bodies capable of withstanding the equal and opposite reaction from pulling off such a feat. Then again, thinking about it, I guess it makes sense that even the dolls are durable enough to survive being crushed by a train, because EVERY Street Fighter character would have to have bodies of ridiculous durability levels in order to withstand being hit by each other at all. IE, if Cody can punch through concrete, then presumably most people that Cody's ever seriously fought yet survived against that Cody's managed to land a clean punch on must be MORE durable than concrete.

    In this regard, I suppose most Mad Gear members were hopefully pretty darn durable, themselves. Otherwise Cody would probably be making Mad Gear giblets all over the place in Final Fight with his concrete shattering punches, in which case Haggar would have had to undertake a whole different version of "cleaning up Metro City's streets".
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    When I think about it, I'm not sure what's scarier about that Birdie story. What's scary specifically is not the fact that Birdie and the dolls are not even the strongest SF characters out there. It's the fact that Birdie, who you'd think would be one of the slowest characters, overall power tier or not, is fast enough to use a train to BLOCK bullets before he can be shot under those conditions, or that the dolls, who you'd think would be one of the least durable characters (in SFA3, they are tied with Claw for withstanding the least amount of damage before KO) are able to survive being crushed by a train.

    Really, if even the dolls are THAT durable, it makes me wonder if Ryu, who presumably would be more durable than a doll (if gameplay is any indication. I know that gameplay and story are meant to be separate but Capcom consistently gives Ryu more HP than Cammy), could TANK a bullet hit, not just dodge one. Getting crushed by a train is presumably almost as bad (if not worse) than being shot, after all...

    And of course, for Balrog to be able to kill an elephant with a punch or Cody to punch through concrete, both would probably have to have bodies capable of withstanding the equal and opposite reaction from pulling off such a feat. Then again, thinking about it, I guess it makes sense that even the dolls are durable enough to survive being crushed by a train, because EVERY Street Fighter character would have to have bodies of ridiculous durability levels in order to withstand being hit by each other at all. IE, if Cody can punch through concrete, then presumably most people that Cody's ever seriously fought yet survived against that Cody's managed to land a clean punch on must be MORE durable than concrete.

    In this regard, I suppose most Mad Gear members were hopefully pretty darn durable, themselves. Otherwise Cody would probably be making Mad Gear giblets all over the place in Final Fight with his concrete shattering punches, in which case Haggar would have had to undertake a whole different version of "cleaning up Metro City's streets".

    You have a very good point there... I could see Tier 1 characters at the very least having bullets practically bounce off of them, perhaps even lower. It is a bit frightening to think about the power of their attacks and the fact they can take them without killing each other... still, I imagine people like Ryu and post-SFZ Sagat pull their punches at least a little bit...

    By the way, hi Tiamat... I didn't know you were still here. We chatted before when I was going around calling myself Jin Phoenix. ;D
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    So wait... if Ryu made it to the finals, that means he would've faced off against Guile or Chun-Li? Or would it have been Vega in the finals? I always thought that the tournaments worked similar to what they blatantly showed in Capcom vs. SNK 2, where the normal fighters faced each other and a winner was determined before facing the host of the tournament (Sagat for SF1, Vega for SF2, Seth for SF4, and Gill for SF3.)

    Either way, it does open up some interesting possibilities... I could see Ryu giving Guile or Chun-Li the victory because fighting Vega means more to them than it does to him... Ryu just wanted to fight some strong opponents, probably. If it was supposed to be Vega in the finals and he wasn't there... well, that would explain why there was no announced winner, because the final match never actually happened.

    Would've been Vega. Because practically all SF2 endings except for Vega's occur including the three who actually interact with Vega afterwards (Hawk badmouths him, Cammy receives a shock, and Guile's goaded), it appears that he set up SF2 such that all roads lead to him so he can personally obliterate at the end whoever makes it to the final stage in Thailand, then when every last fighter was done in either along the way or by him, his ending of taking over the world would proceed.

    Since Gouki crashed the party uninvited, there was no clear winner of SF2, only lots of excitement which SF4's opening story notes remains in the eyes of the world one year later about the "legendary" World Fighting Championship.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Captain Americara , Wolverine , and Batman are CBPH level that means their aim dodgers.

    Shang-Chi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    edit: as for Manga / Brother Hood Bradley his eye gives him pre cong and that's a ability that would help a lot when it comes to dodging bullets.

    edit: now as for Cassandra Cain, well there is no explanation for how her speed , of course she's create by DC, who are same people who created Val Armorr.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    Since Cammy's SSFIV storyline hints that the Gonzo anime is indeed canon, I suppose Juri would have to be a Tier 2 at the bare minimum. The Feng Shui engine gives her the power to negate bazooka blasts without so much as moving a finger, and Guile, Chun-Li and Cammy can't seem to fight her that well without teaming up. Juri even appears to survive the encounters she has with Bison, both in her mid-boss battle and in Bison's ending, before meeting Seth and killing him.
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I imaging that Cody and Guy would have hold back on Metro City characters like J. because I don't think they would take J. seriously. now the Andores on the other had that's a entirely diffrent story, since Hugo is releated to them.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • vasili10vasili10 Forever waits Joined: Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Since Cammy's SSFIV storyline hints that the Gonzo anime is indeed canon, I suppose Juri would have to be a Tier 2 at the bare minimum. The Feng Shui engine gives her the power to negate bazooka blasts without so much as moving a finger, and Guile, Chun-Li and Cammy can't seem to fight her that well without teaming up. Juri even appears to survive the encounters she has with Bison, both in her mid-boss battle and in Bison's ending, before meeting Seth and killing him.

    It's not. She doesn't run into Guile prior to SSF4, but does into Chun-Li and Cammy as per their ink trailers and rival battles.
  • SuperCapComSuperCapCom Joined: Posts: 164
    Would've been Vega. Because practically all SF2 endings except for Vega's occur including the three who actually interact with Vega afterwards (Hawk badmouths him, Cammy receives a shock, and Guile's goaded), it appears that he set up SF2 such that all roads lead to him so he can personally obliterate at the end whoever makes it to the final stage in Thailand, then when every last fighter was done in either along the way or by him, his ending of taking over the world would proceed.

    Since Gouki crashed the party uninvited, there was no clear winner of SF2, only lots of excitement which SF4's opening story notes remains in the eyes of the world one year later about the "legendary" World Fighting Championship.

    So does that mean the tournament worked in a similar way to the Udon comic where there could be multiple finalists? I always thought that tournaments pretty much only had two finalists and one victor from that... unless it worked in a similar way to what Udon portrayed, I don't get how there could be three fighting Vega. If it wasn't for SSF2, we probably wouldn't even have this dilemma... :/
  • Doctrine DarkDoctrine Dark Yum Yum Joined: Posts: 7,346
    So, was Dictator's main goal in assembling the World Warrior tournament to destroy any potential threat? Or did he still have his eyes on obtaining Ryu's body?

    One thing I don't understand is how Dictator loses so many of his abilities when he changes to his Street Fighter 2 form. Weren't his Teleportation and Psycho Shot his own techniques? I can understand not being able to pull off that Super Psycho-Crusher (Since the Psycho Drive is gone) like he did in Zero 3, but he really lost a lot.

    Oh, wait! Forgot that Rose weakened his soul. Kinda reminds me of Dai Kaioshin weakening Majin Boo. I'm wondering if what he stole from Rose allowed him to regain more of his powers, though.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
    PSN: SP_Wesker215/XBL: SP Wesker215
    Super Street Fighter Plot Guide II
    Street Fighter V: Cammy, Learning Menat Marvel: Captain Marvelous/Thanos DBFZ: Gohan/Freeza/Trunks
    Guilty Gear Revelator: Venom King of Fighters XIV: Hein/Mature/Kyo
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    It's not. She doesn't run into Guile prior to SSF4, but does into Chun-Li and Cammy as per their ink trailers and rival battles.

    Cammy's entire story suggests Juri beating the dolls did happen, and you can actually see the dolls sprawled out in Bison's intro. Guile's English quote even references the fight they had. I know anything presented in English isn't entirely accurate, but I can't imagine this being an alteration made for the localized versions considering that the anime short wasn't even released outside of Japan,

    I haven't seen the anime because the trailers have pretty much given away the whole story prior to release, so I concede that some parts may not be canon. Juli did lose her mind, and I don't believe Juri had anything to do with it.
    " Scrubs keep our community alive, not top players, everyone (even myself at times) seem to forget that."
    - Arturo Sanchez, aka Sabin
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