If you were to balance MvC2...

King9999King9999 Joined: Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
...What kinds of things would you do to each character? I'm just curious to see what players think should be done to the fighters so players don't always choose the same characters.
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  • The Electrifying OneThe Electrifying One Coming4EVO Joined: Posts: 1,282
    wow from a 2K1 member too.. it's been done many a time before, this thread.

    Lots of air dashes added to the rest of the cast that don't have them. Let Wolverine and Chun Li combo their supers again. Only nerf I would make is to Magneto's various dashes, and add a few frames start up to AHVB.
    Capcom Exec and co-producer of Streetfighter 2 in interview with Sega Saturn Magazine, 1998:
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    Capcom Exec and co-producer of Streetfighter 2 in interview with Sega Saturn Magazine, 1998:
    "The Days when people really loved playing computers games has ended. This is mainly because of Sony. Sony has created a new era of light users who consider games to be just an everyday form of general entertainment- nothing special. The kind of games we used to see from Nintendo have gone. These are the games that children used to play, but now they don't."
  • ForteForte Taking Aim Joined: Posts: 270
    Time to check out that Alpha-ism radio, the show from before SB3, I think it was 10-13? Something like 3 hours of discussion on this, probably a lot better than anything you'll get out of this topic.
  • TigerboiTigerboi C.R.E.A.M. Joined: Posts: 2,109
    I don't think marvel can be balanced. It can simply be unbroken.

    Remove IM and WMs three direction j. HP. Give doom's ground pink stuff more startup.

    Make Magneto's dashing speed a few frames slower.

    Nerf the shit out of spirals dancing sword. Give her teleport startup.

    Completely remove Storms slow fall. Make her take more damage. Make Hail storm unmashable.

    Unfly has to die. Have sent recover later after HSF.

    remove the invincibility on alot of assists. Psy, Cyke, etc.

    NO GUARDBREAKS.

    Make air dashing universal.


    Nerf tron assist.

    Give lower tier characters more priority (Jill).

    All I can think up for now.
    Marvel sucks.
  • HollowHollow International asshole Joined: Posts: 1,257
    You couldn't completely balance the game. The only thing we could do is bring up the weak characters. I would bring Chun back up to XvSF status, with the comboable air super. Wolverine would go back to XvSF status and give him his heal super back. Gives 35% but takes two levels. Juggs would get his command grab back. Zangief would have a real dash, and Mecha super would be possible in regular form. Everyone with a damage handicap would be brought up to mid damage status. I honestly would not change any of the top tiers. Bring all the low tiers up to a competing level.

    Cap Com would have a repeatable corridor in the air. That would be sweet. Spiderman would be able to finish off and air combo with HP -> HK. That would give him the universal infinite against Sent. Just because of the way he blocks, he would take no block damage. Web swing would recover in the air right after executing. Web throw could be done repeatedly, ala Morrigan. Also, it would hold you as long as Thanos' bubble.

    That's just some things I have thought about.

    Um, Jill has godlike priority as it is, really.
    ..you pretty much win the round on straight up man juice once you activate FRKZ..
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  • TigerboiTigerboi C.R.E.A.M. Joined: Posts: 2,109

    Um, Jill has godlike priority as it is, really.

    On what? Her highest priority move is her j. HP and that loses to Guile's j.HK.
    Marvel sucks.
  • HollowHollow International asshole Joined: Posts: 1,257
    Standing fierce. Low RH. Maybe that's the Justin Wong factor in that priority. Ducking Fierce, also. You may be right, Tiger.I am only seeing the "Justin Wong" Jill win I consider priority.

    ..you pretty much win the round on straight up man juice once you activate FRKZ..
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    On what? Her highest priority move is her j. HP and that loses to Guile's j.HK.

    Maybe that's because j.hk has hella priority by itself. You can't compare a move to a high priority move and claim it's low priority because it loses. Also, these threads never do well because no one knows what the fuck they're talking about. Very few people actually understand WHY stuff works as well as how and I don't claim to be one of them. The only way to eliminate guardbreaks is to give normal jumps superjump status which would mean characters can normal jump and block all day making it even more broken. That would also essentially give sentinel unfly for free all the time. This thread is going to turn into a wishlist based on what scrubs lose to instead of what the game actually needs.
  • DeadlyRave-NeoDeadlyRave-Neo Joined: Posts: 500
    just give every character 8way airdash and call it a day.:rock:
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  • HollowHollow International asshole Joined: Posts: 1,257
    Maybe that's because j.hk has hella priority by itself. You can't compare a move to a high priority move and claim it's low priority because it loses. Also, these threads never do well because no one knows what the fuck they're talking about. Very few people actually understand WHY stuff works as well as how and I don't claim to be one of them. The only way to eliminate guardbreaks is to give normal jumps superjump status which would mean characters can normal jump and block all day making it even more broken. That would also essentially give sentinel unfly for free all the time. This thread is going to turn into a wishlist based on what scrubs lose to instead of what the game actually needs.

    Thx, Adam. I knew Guardbreaks were tied into the mechanics of the system. To change it would bring on a whole mess of problems, destroying the game. I had read that some time ago. Just didn't remember what it actually did.
    ..you pretty much win the round on straight up man juice once you activate FRKZ..
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  • specsspecs Excuse me, princess! Joined: Posts: 6,380 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I don't want to nerf anyone too badly. I'd rather bring weaker characters up to speed.

    I'd give out air dashes liberally (even some 8-way ones). Tweak defenses across the board (lots of characters need more, especially the likes of Akuma and the Wolverines) OR give something to make up for low defense (Akuma could have Shin/Cyber Akuma moves/damage). I wouldn't mind something to keep assists in check (assist stocks, or assists eating some meter). Adjust some of the MP/MK moves (maybe move some directly to the LP/LK button). That's all I'm going to say as I haven't played the game with any semblance of seriousness in 7+ years.

    I nominate Higher Jin to tell us how he'd fix Jin. :tup:
    Time to check out that Alpha-ism radio, the show from before SB3, I think it was 10-13? Something like 3 hours of discussion on this, probably a lot better than anything you'll get out of this topic.

    I don't suppose I can get a transcript anywhere...?
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  • ForteForte Taking Aim Joined: Posts: 270
    Thanks to EVERYONE for the show last night. As for the changes suggested for a Marvel "remix" mode, here's the list:

    1) Ken - expanded range on launcher; shoryureppa super should take ~40% life; air version of shin-shoryuken; 8-way dash

    2) Omega Red - better, faster air dash; ability to combo into his air super; not much needs to be done to make him pretty good

    3) Amingo - Supers need to be seriously buffed up; "lil" Amingos needs to be able to move faster and travel further

    4) Jill - New super where a bunch of zombies attack you; give Jill the ability to "charge" Zombies so they can take extra hits; regular zombies should move much faster; make Jill's assist with the rocket better by having homing capabilities

    5) Akuma - swap him out for Cyber-Akuma from MvSF, 'nuff said

    6) Sakura - 1 level for Evil Sakura; 8-way dash; air fireball super;

    7) Ryu - give air shinkuu-hadouken instant startup/recovery to make him a mini-version of Cable; give him a version of air hurricane kick that makes him go straight up, but still can attack after it, similar to Storm's lightning attack

    8) Rogue - powerups from other characters become permanent for the round; 8-way dash; give her air version of ground super.

    9) Commando - fix the glitch with his sword super not hitting sometimes, and doing shitty damage; give him an air version of his rush super

    10) Hayato - make level 3 super a level 1, but slightly less damage; all his moves needs to come out faster do more damage; downward thrust move should be able to comboed into a ground chain ala Wolverine from MvC 1; shockwave super should have more vertical range, and do more damage; give him a double jump

    ... This is all from the top of my head, I'll be adding more

    P.S. Capcom, if you're reading this, know that skisonic is able and ready to make this dream a reality. He will even forego his usual $250,000 signing bonus to help with the project.


    That's about all I think was posted, I guess you could look further into that thread or whatever, there were some other posts in there too.
  • b1gaznb1gazn SWAG Joined: Posts: 7,463
    just give every character 8way airdash and call it a day.:rock:

    and air supers

    lots of people will rank up in tiers because of this
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    I'd rather buy 6 copies of MvC2 than buy 1 copy of TvC3!

    I am now playing ____ when _____ comes out I will be leveling up in that game, even if it is crappy because I am a gaymer!

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  • The ChiefThe Chief iGoHar... Joined: Posts: 3,661 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The only acceptable changes are the ones that make something broken harder to do. Otherwise you might as well rename the game.
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  • player2player2 The Challenging Opponent Joined: Posts: 118
    Zangief buffs...

    Alongside a real dash, it would be nice to see him get:
    • a real 'magic series' chain
    • a glowing hand super (akin to Chun-Li's Kikosho)
    • a lariat super (akin to Ryu's Shinkuu Tatsumaki...)
    • all his specials and supers from his Mega form
    • slight super armor (like Hulk)
    • temporary mega mode with the ability to block (like Colossus)
    • faster & farther aerial russian slam
    That's all i can think of right now. He may not be top tier with these changes, but at least he could stay alive longer.
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  • TigerboiTigerboi C.R.E.A.M. Joined: Posts: 2,109
    Maybe that's because j.hk has hella priority by itself. You can't compare a move to a high priority move and claim it's low priority because it loses.

    I'm not saying she has low priority. She has decent priority but she actually loses alot of matches (like vs. guile) because she only has decent priority. With Guile or Cyclops level priority she still wouldn't be great, because she has to work to damn hard to get close in so man matches. So at least when she gets there she doesn't have to worry about getting beat by something.
    Also, these threads never do well because no one knows what the fuck they're talking about. Very few people actually understand WHY stuff works as well as how and I don't claim to be one of them. The only way to eliminate guardbreaks is to give normal jumps superjump status which would mean characters can normal jump and block all day making it even more broken. That would also essentially give sentinel unfly for free all the time. This thread is going to turn into a wishlist based on what scrubs lose to instead of what the game actually needs.

    Well, what I really meant was giving people a free GB when a new character comes in. any other time I see it as being fine.

    EDIT: Actually buffing Jill's zombies is a great idea as well.
    Marvel sucks.
  • YunaYuna Can I be a social justice cleric or something instead? Joined: Posts: 7,545
    I'd like to see a little bit more damage on some of Megaman and Roll's moves. Roll in general would be more fun if she didn't blow(mind you, I think she's fun already).
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  • Half-RoHalf-Ro Omae wa mo shinderu.... Joined: Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    BUFFS
    - Some properties of previous incarnations of characters return.

    XvS style chun, wolvie, juggs, shotos, cammy, cyke. They dont have to be extra infinite happy like xvs (with mvc2's engine, It automatically tones the infs anyways and makes them actually usuable)

    Msh style shuma, hulk, cap, bh, im
    All the best incarnations of these characters had full access to their move sets, normals and specials. Would be a little harder to get these guys to work but, you could at least make them better.

    C.O.T.A style Iceman, collosus, silver sam, omega
    More of the same. Just better versions all around.

    Mvc2 new characters - Jill, amingo, hayato, servbot, roll
    These characters need help. They definitely need boosts. I honestly believe that servbot/roll are unsaveable. :/



    Nerfs
    Mvc2 gods
    Sent:
    - All his normals chip? Fix please. I could see the beam, I guess.
    - Remove Unblockable
    - Keep the fast fly tactics but make his fly a LITTLE slower so that a character might have a chance to actually, you know, catch him.


    Storm:
    - Something needs to be done about her runaway. So, if she ad's and attacks, she cant block on the way down or whatever.
    - Make a "screen cap" for her headbutt, make her head downwards if she hits the top of the screen or something.

    Cable:
    - He is not that good unless he has some supers. I guess tone his super slightly or better yet make it change the gravity of the character being hit by the move so that cable can only do a max of 2 back to back ahvbs or maybe just adjust the damage of the beam. Either way.

    - Leave the move combable but remove instant aspect of ahvb (just a few frames). Leave the recovery as is. Change the recovery of the ground hvb and make it better. If he wants to turtle, let him fly or die by it then.


    Mags:
    - Mag is so live by the sword, die by the sword, like cable. If I would do anything to him, I would lower his stamina and raise offensive ability further. Make him similar to his xvs incarnation. All offense.

    - Maybe change his tempest to the tempest from MSH. Less damage, i believe it was still comboable and tracked a little.

    - Remove the unblockable properties that happen with his moves sometimes.
    (s.fp comes to mind)


    I wouldnt like to see air dashes for everyone, the cool part of video games is varied play styles. I dont want for all the characters to play similar. Wolvie is tops in xvs and doesnt have access to an airdash. Seems like a lazy way to make characters competitive.
  • RairuRairu im so HD right now Joined: Posts: 1,040
    I don't think marvel can be balanced. It can simply be unbroken.

    Remove IM and WMs three direction j. HP. Give doom's ground pink stuff more startup.

    Make Magneto's dashing speed a few frames slower.

    Nerf the shit out of spirals dancing sword. Give her teleport startup.

    Completely remove Storms slow fall. Make her take more damage. Make Hail storm unmashable.

    Unfly has to die. Have sent recover later after HSF.

    remove the invincibility on alot of assists. Psy, Cyke, etc.

    NO GUARDBREAKS.

    Make air dashing universal.


    Nerf tron assist.

    Give lower tier characters more priority (Jill).

    All I can think up for now.

    This post is horrible.
    If I can press two buttons at the same time it's fucking over, and I'm moving to Straight City.
  • HuStLeMaN17HuStLeMaN17 #2O gArY pAyToN... tHa-GlOvE Joined: Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I wouldn't change anything.
    Love, Marvel vs Capcom 2 - Hate, Ultimate Tatsunoko vs Capcom 3

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  • TigerboiTigerboi C.R.E.A.M. Joined: Posts: 2,109
    Strider anyone?
    Marvel sucks.
  • Half-RoHalf-Ro Omae wa mo shinderu.... Joined: Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    More stamina.
    Kai got it below, but get rid of overlapping commands.
  • KillerKaiKillerKai It's a KILLA! Joined: Posts: 1,472
    Strider:
    Give Strider more stamina
    Get rid of the wall grab
    Make Ragnarok a DP into two kicks instead of two punches
    replace ground assist with a bomb assist
    Make Orbs twice as long
    Let him start each match with 5 bars

    that is all
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  • AlcaTraz644AlcaTraz644 Sadatay & feel OK Joined: Posts: 160
    I know this is stupid but um they should Improve Servbot a tad.

    Just make him a pint stronger and a tad more stamina.

    I was gonna say something bout B.B.hood but i forgot.
  • Darklightjg1Darklightjg1 Dr. SuessLight Joined: Posts: 3,856
    This may be a repeated discussion. But until we get final word on what's happening with the rumored MVC2 re-release on XBLA/PSN, we might as well discuss. I'm not holding my breath, but if any feedback has the potential to add something new to the game before it gets put out, I'm gonna throw in my two cents and other MVC2 fans should too.

    I liked most of the suggestions mentioned on that Alphaism show, I hope they talk about it more in the future.

    The only part I disagree with is: I wouldn't really want to see anyone nerfed for any reason. Just buff lower characters so they can fight back/hold their own/be a valuable asset to the team.

    If the character needs some ways to combo any particular super reliably or to make the super more useful... make it happen.

    If the character needs some extra mobilty tools to get in, give it to them. Not necessarily 8-way airdash for everyone... everyone doesn't need it. Some only need cancellable 2-way airdash even. Some just shouldn't have an airdash. Just make sure it's within reason... don't be doin' stupid shit like giving Juggernaut extra speed and fly/unfly abilities combined with power up glitch or somethin'.

    At the same time, you could give some characters better projectile properties/keepaway tools. Cater to a variety of playstyles.

    For characters like strider/akuma/wolverine etc., please please pleeeease give them some extra stamina to work with . No one besides servbot deserves to get raped like that in a few hits.

    Buff the assists for those that need it.

    You know what... just put Skisonic on the rebalancing team.
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  • googlegoogle :) Joined: Posts: 746
    Though Marvel isn't balanced, there are alot of good "teams" out there, that no one takes the time to get good or even decent with. But at the end of the day, what hurts alot of those "teams" is Cable.

    If Cable had AHVB, he would still be top tier. But If they would just remove multiple AHVB, that would help out a ton. That would allow more teams to have more success.
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    Real SRK'ers don't like them Fighting Games Balanced!!!!

    We like them Fighters BROKEN!!!
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  • Strike_PrimeStrike_Prime 440,000,000 bounty Joined: Posts: 2,569
    they should lower the top's offense power a bit and raise the offense power of the lower tiers. and they also should cut some time off of sent's fly mode.
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  • kesh!kesh! It's all up to Y O U Joined: Posts: 524
    i dont think the game should ever be balanced/touched.

    however, I'd love to see a tournament implement a ratio system

    like lets say the top tiers were worth 3 points, mid tier 2 points bottom 1 point, a team can only consist of 6 or less than 6 points

    so 1 magneto - 3, 1 dhalsim - 2, 1 anakaris - 1 = 6 points

    idk it'd be interesting
  • cursedDicecursedDice Joined: Posts: 39
    I am actually making a detailed list of changes to characters in MvC2 that I feel would make more characters tournament-viable, while retaining everything that is currently fun about MvC2.

    The #1 thing that needs to happen with this is NO NERFS to anyone.

    I struggled with this idea for a long time. I even thought about removing universal things like Guard Breaks and Snap Out Assist Kills and Unblockables...I mean, Cable would still be good without his super easy Guard Break > AHVB...Sentinel would still pwn without his Unblockable setups...Magneto would still be god without Snap Out kills...

    But in the end these things make MvC2 FUN...It comes down to Marvel 2 being fun because it is so broken.

    So the answer of course is to give EVERY character broken stuff. The easiest way to start with this is to identify the things that make the Tier 1 and 2 characters playable.

    Super Speed
    Awesome Supers/DHC setups
    8-way Dash
    Infinites
    Unblockables
    Easy and Abuseable Guard Breaks
    Good/Excellent Assists
    High Stamina/High Damage
    Lock Downs/Traps
    Tri-Jumps
    Super Fast Crossups/Mixups
    Ability to Cancel Normals into SJ, Specials, Supers, Flight, etc...

    Now take a character, lets say Zangief, and decide what does he need to be broken that wouldn't be TOO out of character for him.

    Zangeif:
    Super Armor, Stamina, and Damage equal to Sentinel
    Give him a Lariat Assist that is invulnerable to projectiles, has some armor, and that pops them up in the air like Psylocke's assist.
    Better Jumps...a forward air dash...
    Air Lariat should have much better priority and is immune to projectiles...also change the trajectory to allow him to use it to get in better
    3-4 SPDs to kill a character.
    Green Hand should move him forward faster and further and go through multi-hit beams (Cable, Iceman, Doom Rocks ect...)

    These changes would immediately make Zangeif playable...the one change to his Assist (tossing them up in the air the same as Psylocke's assist does) would make him a viable #3 on a team. Instead of MSP, its MSZ. In fact this change list might make MSZ better than MSP. (Assuming no changes were made to Psylocke, which would be dumb, she needs buffs as a point character).

    The overall point is that a MvC2 Remix would take much LESS careful consideration than SFHD Remix does. As long as you dole out the broken stuff better, every character will have a chance to be used, either as a point character, or as a good assist. And as long as you don't NERF ANYTHING, the fun God-Tier and 2nd tier characters will remain fun and just as competitive as before.
  • KataklysmicKataklysmic More Tigers! Joined: Posts: 959
    Strider:
    Give Strider more stamina
    Get rid of the wall grab
    Make Ragnarok a DP into two kicks instead of two punches
    replace ground assist with a bomb assist
    Make Orbs twice as long
    Let him start each match with 5 bars

    that is all

    What about Doom?
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  • Saotome KanedaSaotome Kaneda Watch your back Joined: Posts: 5,332 mod
    i dont think the game should ever be balanced/touched.

    however, I'd love to see a tournament implement a ratio system

    like lets say the top tiers were worth 3 points, mid tier 2 points bottom 1 point, a team can only consist of 6 or less than 6 points

    so 1 magneto - 3, 1 dhalsim - 2, 1 anakaris - 1 = 6 points

    idk it'd be interesting
    It's been done quite a few times, I can remember first hearing the idea thrown around in 2k3-4. It was the father of the low tier tourney if IIRC
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  • Saotome KanedaSaotome Kaneda Watch your back Joined: Posts: 5,332 mod
    What about Doom?
    rocks multi hit(and chip) until they leave the screen
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  • kesh!kesh! It's all up to Y O U Joined: Posts: 524
    It's been done quite a few times, I can remember first hearing the idea thrown around in 2k3-4. It was the father of the low tier tourney if IIRC


    you know, i was like good shit kesh thats a good idea

    now i feel like shit, ty.
  • Saotome KanedaSaotome Kaneda Watch your back Joined: Posts: 5,332 mod
    you know, i was like good shit kesh thats a good idea

    now i feel like shit, ty.
    lol my bad. If it makes you feel better you used more points on sim than what I remember from the 1st thread. :confused:
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  • kesh!kesh! It's all up to Y O U Joined: Posts: 524
    :lol:

    gotta represent the only indian that capcom will ever use.
  • [KHAOS][KHAOS] YOU NEED MORE. Joined: Posts: 2,450
    and they also should cut some time off of sent's fly mode.

    Dude...

    No way.
    Your reigning (defending) mvc2 champion.
  • KillerKaiKillerKai It's a KILLA! Joined: Posts: 1,472
    What about Doom?

    Rocks do as much damage as Tronn proj when they connect. Also, they should protect Doom as effectively as they did in MSH. making them last twice as long would help too
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  • VietexanVietexan The Proctor Joined: Posts: 403
    Give juggernaut a better dash so that his wave dash isnt slower than 1 regular dash :rolleyes:. Faster recovery on his splash move.
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  • Saotome KanedaSaotome Kaneda Watch your back Joined: Posts: 5,332 mod
    Rocks do as much damage as Tronn proj when they connect. Also, they should protect Doom as effectively as they did in MSH. making them last twice as long would help too
    and suck you in instead of knockaway
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  • Deth-ScyanydeDeth-Scyanyde The Lost Messiah... Joined: Posts: 626
    Give Doom a faster dash...period!!
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