Twelve EVERYTHING Thread

TweleveTweleve fuccboiJoined: Posts: 7,643
As little posting as this thread may get, I feel it's important for Twelve to have his own general thread. This will include everything such as mind games, mix ups, random tactics, "combos", taunting strategies, etc. It would be great to also get in videos of people using Twelve and certain things that may have stood out in matches, such as an unexpected crossover attack, methods of dealing with parry happy opponents, everything.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Something else I have trouble with is approaching shotos from the air. I find it really hard to keep an air poking game going on when a shoryuken can beat out every move I try.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    About this thread... that's a pretty big project. I'll contribute stuff when this thread gets pushed in certain directions but yeah, it'll take a lot of effort to get this one going.
    Just hope you know how to punish an opponent's jump with a standingHP and mix up enough to land some crRH.

    You shouldn't really be looking to hit jump-ins with st.HP. If it gets parried, your opponent has forever to combo you, the recovery is horrible. It's better to use it when you think a jump is coming and you know you won't be punished hard if your opponent expects it - st.HP very rarely parried on the way up and even if it is, Twelve tends to recover in time. As an added bonus, the hit box starts loooow, and it'll hit opponents out of dashes and sometimes even trade or beat pokes clean.

    Better anti-airs are jump back > EX DRA, SAI, jab xx AXE, EX NDL or walk under their jump and throw or cr.LK xx AXE or whatever.

    And you don't need to land cr.HK. It'll get you killed from close up and from range, you really have to condition your opponents before you start landing it. It's not a bad move but it's nowhere near essential to Twelve's gameplan. He doesn't need knockdowns.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Mikee, would you say that for standing over an opponent who is knocked down and does not have meter, doing AXE on their wake-up is a bad idea? Not all the time of course, used sparingly.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Mikee, would you say that for standing over an opponent who is knocked down and does not have meter, doing AXE on their wake-up is a bad idea? Not all the time of course, used sparingly.

    Depends.

    If they're in the corner, then I'd say not on Urien, Q, Hugo, Makoto, Oro or Dudley. After one parry, they can throw you into the corner and they have a huge advantage with you in the corner. If you have enough time, you want to be just outside of throw range if you're going for AXE on their wake-up. That way, if it's parried, they can't throw you. I also do HP AXE a little early so the first hit sometimes whiffs, makes it harder to parry.

    Some players here in London have started red parrying AXE too, so I guess that's another thing to look out for, how well the other player can red parry.

    Midscreen it's a little harder to set-up because opponents are usually tech-rolling but also, midscreen allows you to be a little more creative if they decide to stay on the deck after a knockdown. You can do stuff like IAD corpse cross-up whatever, air-dash HK cross-up, etc.

    So yeah, it depends on the opponent, his habits (does he always wake up DP? Always low parry? Throw on wake-up?) and how used he is to fighting Twelve. If you get the knockdown, I think Twelve has much better options but it's good to use every now and then so your opponent knows you're prepared to put pressure on his wake-up if necessary (mix it up with throw, block or cr.LK xx LP AXE, then you can follow THAT with another LP AXE as it tends to whatever normal the opponent throws out after).

    //

    Oh yeah, incidentally, if you're going for chip damage, then HP AXE xx SAI is pretty much unbeatable. Do it from just outside of throw range and cancel the first hit of AXE into the super. Parry xx Super beats it I think but most players don't expect the super, so they either keep parrying at the wrong speed or go for parry > throw. Either way, I'd never had it beaten out. Looks nice too!
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Yeah I've actually been using cr.LK xx AXE xx SA1 a lot now.

    Are you sure that people can't red parry out of the HP AXE xx SA1? I mean I thought I've seen everything, but I was fighting someone and he managed to red parry a Chun SA2 out of a blocked cr.MK.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Are you sure that people can't red parry out of the HP AXE xx SA1? I mean I thought I've seen everything, but I was fighting someone and he managed to red parry a Chun SA2 out of a blocked cr.MK.

    Chun's cr.MK xx SAII isn't new though, everyone expects it. I'm pretty sure when almost all players are chip damage away from dying and block a cr.MK, they'll then tap towards in anticipation of Chun's SAII. It's not -that- hard to red parry either, at least not compared to other chip super set-ups.

    HP AXE xx SAI can be red parried, of course, but I'm 99% sure you will never ever see anyone pull that off in competitive play, even casuals for two reasons:
    1) Most players expect HP AXE to finish them off, so if they block the first hit, they will try to red parry at HP AXE speed.
    2) Most players haven't even seen or don't know HP AXE can be cancelled into super... so once HP AXE starts, they'll assume it's that all the way because they won't have seen any different. Cancelling into super will completely screw their timing.

    Okay, so it's the same reason explained in two different ways, but whatever :p
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    About this thread... that's a pretty big project. I'll contribute stuff when this thread gets pushed in certain directions but yeah, it'll take a lot of effort to get this one going.



    You shouldn't really be looking to hit jump-ins with st.HP. If it gets parried, your opponent has forever to combo you, the recovery is horrible. It's better to use it when you think a jump is coming and you know you won't be punished hard if your opponent expects it - st.HP very rarely parried on the way up and even if it is, Twelve tends to recover in time. As an added bonus, the hit box starts loooow, and it'll hit opponents out of dashes and sometimes even trade or beat pokes clean.

    Better anti-airs are jump back > EX DRA, SAI, jab xx AXE, EX NDL or walk under their jump and throw or cr.LK xx AXE or whatever.

    And you don't need to land cr.HK. It'll get you killed from close up and from range, you really have to condition your opponents before you start landing it. It's not a bad move but it's nowhere near essential to Twelve's gameplan. He doesn't need knockdowns.

    That's exactly what I meant, to prevent jumps the moment they happen. You have to be lucky if you can land the st.HP during the second bit of the jump hehe. Those other jump ins are nice but you have to experience the EX DRA and you'd be surprised at what can over prioritize it. SAI would be a waste but if it's damage, it's damage. I think Jab to EX is nice. The last options are quite nice, those I like.

    cr.HK has always been part of my repetoire for some damage and getting the opponent into the habit of attempting to parry low, allowing nice chances to land a st.HK or UOH on wakeup. As for shoto's, I learned to not as glide as often unless the opponent is down or you definately have a good chance. Random shoryukens > air.
  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Yeah I've *almost* given up on IAD and normal-jump air dash on shoto's. Rarely, I'll pull out a superjump air dash maybe to get out of a bad corner situation or just move to the other side for the hell of it.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    That's exactly what I meant, to prevent jumps the moment they happen. You have to be lucky if you can land the st.HP during the second bit of the jump hehe. Those other jump ins are nice but you have to experience the EX DRA and you'd be surprised at what can over prioritize it. SAI would be a waste but if it's damage, it's damage. I think Jab to EX is nice. The last options are quite nice, those I like.

    How is SAI a waste?

    If you land it deep enough, the full super connects. It's the most damaging move Twelve has. It teaches your opponent not to jump in at you when you have meter. They can't tech-roll after SAI connects, which means you can set-up a deep air-dash HK ambiguous cross-up without having to worry about them tech-rolling. It's not like Twelve has a luxury of options when it comes to dishing out damage. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but I can't see why you wouldn't use it...

    As for air-dashing at shotos, what I usually do is IAD > HK a fair bit outside of SRK range (so I land about their sweep range) to see if they SRK or not. If they do, you can cr.MK them. Not much, but it hits and it's risk free. If they don't throw out random SRKs - and some shoto players don't - you can IAD > MP from the same range. I'm sure everyone has a different way of dealing with shotos. You can definitely be more flexible against Ryu and Akuma than Ken though, because of the shorter range of their SRKs.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Yeah, Kens EX Shoryuken kills me =[
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  • Shin_Akuma_Shin_Akuma_ AKA Non-SmokeMaster Joined: Posts: 706
    I'm trying to find the usefulness of SA III. I know that SA I is the most useful out of the three, but my belief is theirs a reason for all Supers in the game. So with that out in the open, who do you all think SA III is most effective against? I'm fairly sure it's effective against Akuma, but when it comes to "turtle" based characters(Chun-Li) I don't think it would be that useful.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Urien definitely.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    I'm fairly sure it's effective against Akuma, but when it comes to "turtle" based characters(Chun-Li) I don't think it would be that useful.

    The reason it's not effective against Chun-Li is that you're playing as Chun-Li without super, and she loses a lot of her effectiveness without a super.

    X.C.O.P.Y. is best against characters who don't rely on their super (Chun-Li, Urien, Yun) and don't rely on EX moves (Dudley, Yang) because those the two things you don't have when using SAIII. That's also why most people think it's good against Akuma, because he has no EX moves and the defence boost covers up his weakness (takes damage like a testicle). You just lose the threat of cr.LK and whiff punishing along with kara-demon, blah blah blah.

    The only practical real use for SAIII would be against Akuma or Twelve but I still prefer SAI for those matches. I think it works well against Alex as well, no real reason though, just a personal thing. Still, it's a fun super to use when dicking about - especially when you kill someone with a jab while in X.C.O.P.Y. and the screen explodes lol
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  • bodlerbodler The Unmixupable Joined: Posts: 1,074
    is it just me or twelve has trowing priority? evrytime i do light tornade on him with sean i always get trown before i can do anything, while most the other characters i have time to either tech trow or ex shoryu.
  • MagnetoManiacMagnetoManiac EX MagMan™ Joined: Posts: 6,697
    is it just me or twelve has trowing priority? evrytime i do light tornade on him with sean i always get trown before i can do anything, while most the other characters i have time to either tech trow or ex shoryu.

    no sean just sucks.

    SAIII is so beast, if you're good at killing within a few knockdowns then use it. i think it's good against ken, just that if you run out you're gonna get double srk'd to hell which really sucks. i wouldn't recommend activating on them with around 75% or higher, you might wanna use the bar for some EX's until they're a bit lower on health. i'll list the characters i think it's decent to use against.

    - yang: EX slash isn't really needed, his slashes during xcopy is nice enough
    - ken: rushdown with roids. meaning double srk on roids.
    - elena: not as much, but i like the poking damage.
    - ibuki: fun
    - alex: no EX flash chop, but jab ones can work. headbutt and powerbomb do massive damage
    - akuma: mikee explained
    - makoto: rush


    of course SAIII isn't the main choice even in those matchups, but those are the few that are worth a mention.

    also mikee you post good 12 tactics from thread to thread, very good stuff from London
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  • whitecrowzwhitecrowz CKD Joined: Posts: 282
    What are his moves/specials that avoid throws?

    Roundhouse?
    (EX) NDL?


    Like Urien's st. HK (most of the time); Gouki's f+MP (arcade only) etc etc

    ty
  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Twelve doesn't really have any moves like that, unfortunately.

    EDIT: Roundhouse might work but I've never tried it at point blank range.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    I'm pretty sure I've been thrown out of point blank roundhouse.
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  • SoundatronSoundatron Energon Guzzler Joined: Posts: 518
    lol, yeah HK gets the boot alright. Sides your Twelve, at poitn blank range shouldn't you be doing the throwing already?
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Er, can you rephrase that? ^_^;;
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Figures that HK is throwable, it has stupid start-up and doesn't move back like Urien's HK or Makoto's HK. It's the way those characters move back during the animation that makes those moves unthrowable, not some special property on the move itself. The Akuma f+MP being unthrowable on arcade is a glitch, which is why it was corrected for console. I thought it might have worked, oh well.

    So I guess the only way you can 'beat' throws depends on the situation. After you do IAD LP (blocked), you can either throw as usual or go into cr.LK xx LP AXE xx SAI (if you have it). Again, it's a range issue, if you do the IAD LP hella deep then they can throw you out of the cr.LK but 99% of the time, the cr.LK xx LP AXE will beat the throwing player. Stuff like that.
    Soundatron wrote:
    at poitn blank range shouldn't you be doing the throwing already?

    Again, it depends. If you play to a simple pattern and go for throws at the same time, you can bet that eventually, the other player will start going for anti-throw stuff because he has learnt when the throw is coming. Some shoto players I play against will always DP after blocking IAD LP if I don't have meter, for example, because they know it will beat throw and I can't punish too hard if I block anyway.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Hey, how often do you guys use his taunt? And what move do you go for if you're safe enough?
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Sometimes after directional throw (not neutral, obviously) and sometimes after EX NDL from over half-screen away. I think those two are the only truly 'safe' ways of taunting.

    I don't really do it that much but I do think it's a valid tactic. I tend to use it most on turtle players, just to see how they react to it. If they carry on turtling, I know in future I can turn invisible and attack if the situation arises. If they panic and start attacking, then I've stopped them turtling and can hopefully use that to my advantage.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Landing after XFLAT leaves you in perfect crossup position, just noticed this yesterday.

    If mk xx XFLAT wasn't the only way to combo the damn thing, maybe I'd use it more often. :chainsaw:
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    I'd use it a lot more if it did the same damage air-to-air as it did air-to-ground...
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    That too.

    As if it's not one of the easiest supers to parry anyway.
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  • whitecrowzwhitecrowz CKD Joined: Posts: 282
    I'd use it a lot more if it did the same damage air-to-air as it did air-to-ground...

    Aaaah! So THIS explains THAT! ty

    Random info:
    If opponent is cornered and you throw him towards the corner, you can walk a very small step, then standing MK; this puts you on the perfect distance for UOH xx SAI against shotos and probably other characters.
    Also, if they dont tech roll after neutral throw, you're automatically at the good distance for UOH xx SAI.
  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    That's a nice trick there whitecrowz. I don't have any set-ups for UOH > SAI myself, just sometimes chance it when I'm standing at the right range, so it's good to know stuff like that.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Do you guys think it's safe to spam the shit out of standing far mp? Against non SA3 Ken type situation of course, meaning even if it's parried, you're not exactly fucked.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    A lot of characters can either crouch it (Ibuki, Oro, twins) or have pokes that beat it clean (Urien, Hugo, shotos). Makoto can even dash under it, Oro might be able to as well. So you can't ever abuse it.

    The only match-up where I use it a lot is against Hugo, to stop him jumping. Hugo's cr.MK is the only poke that beats it so if he isn't using cr.MK too much, go for it. A lot of Hugos either don't have experience with the match-up or are too busy concentrating on everything else Twelve is doing, so they can forget about their own cr.MK. It's also a very good poke against Q too but you probably want to avoid that kind of mid-range poking game against him anyway, the risk/reward isn't really in your favour.

    I use it a lot against Dudley too, his jump can't clear it too well so it's a nice poke if you pre-empt jumping attempts. Again, you want to stay away from that mid-range game if possible but if you get into st.MP range, it's a pretty good poke and also a good distance to use cr.MP as an anti-air for his jump-ins, one of the few instances where it becomes practical. But if Dudley is spamming st.HK to try and get an EX Machine Gun Blow combo going, don't even think about pressing that button lol it's really not worth it.

    Er... and that's it. The problem is really that most characters can duck/outpoke it without too much hassle, which is why cr.MK is better in 99% of situations where range isn't an issue. It would be great if Twelve had a nice mid-hitting poke like Ryu's st.MK or Ken's st.HK, because then you'd have something from distance that can't be parried low (without the guess-what-move-I'm-going-for start-up of Twelve's st.HK).

    Try it against different characters and see what you come up with. I used it a lot when I first started playing Twelve but I've slowly steered clear over the years, I think it's one of those moves that looks a lot better than it actually is...
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Well, admittedly I haven't utilized his cr.MK as much as I probably should have been doing. I find a lot of my matches turning into "guess if im gonna cross you over with IAD" battles, which I think needs to stop now.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    There are some match-ups where you can't go wild in the air (Urien, Ken, Oro, etc), so it's a good idea to develop a ground poking game so you know what to do when the aerial options get shut down.

    The problem then becomes, how do you stop them from low parrying when cr.MK is Twelve's only decent mid-range poke and doesn't even lead into major damage. But hey, there's a reason why he's bottom tier, right?

    :(
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Yeah. In the end it's all about how well you can trick people.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Yup yup. And the more ways you know how to play, the more you can switch it up and come up with new answers whenever you run into problems. I think being versatile is the key to being a good Twelve player.

    Shame there aren't more people reading/posting. It's tempting to do a full match-up thread for people to contribute to but with SFIV round the corner and Twelve being one of the more unpopular characters, I guess there's not much love for him these days.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    There never was any love =[

    And in SF4 I have to use Vega, because he's the closest thing to Twelve.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    Seeing as there's not much talk going on right now, thought I'd copy pasta these match-ups from the Japanese tierings:
    	ch	yu	ke	ma	du	ya	go	ur	ib	ry	or	el	ne	al	re	_q	tw	hu	se
    tw	3	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	4	3	3	4	4	4	4	4	-	6	6
    

    If the coding makes it too hard to read (I know I'm too lazy to scroll lol), here's the easy to read format:

    Yun 2-8
    Ken 2-8

    Chun 3-7
    Makoto 3-7
    Dudley 3-7
    Yang 3-7
    Akuma 3-7
    Urien 3-7
    Ryu 3-7
    Oro 3-7

    Ibuki 4-6
    Elena 4-6
    Necro 4-6
    Alex 4-6
    Remy 4-6
    Q 4-6

    Hugo 6-4
    Sean 6-4

    It would be cool to hear people's opinions on these match-ups.

    I remember when Thongboy Bebop made that Twelve tutorial vid a couple of years back and it said Elena was a near impossible to win match-up. He said it was because of Elena's back+HK beating everything Twelve has and a lot of people blindly agreed, probably because 1) only a few people play Elena and 2) even fewer people play Twelve. I always thought that was wrong, because Chun-Li's back+HP and Dudley's HK were just as troublesome plus those moves lead into MAJOR damage, but some people still insisted Elena was Twelve's hardest match-up! It used to drive me mad. I actually think EX Rhino Horn is a bigger pain in the ass than Elena's back+HK but anyway...

    In my experience, Yun has felt more like a 3-7 match-up (random activations can be avoided, EX NDL very helpful in the match-up) while Urien has always felt like a 2-8 match-up (I think in nearly all his match-ups, Twelve can afford to make at least two major mistakes but against Urien, he can only make one). Oro also feels like a 2-8 match-up but I think that's because the Oro player here is way better than me, so the gap between the two characters stretches further. It probably is a 3-7 match-up, just I (still) haven't figured it out yet.

    Anyway, just wanted to know what match-ups you guys struggle with and if you disagree with any of the match-ups listed above.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Ibuki should be 6-4 in Twelve's favor, I have fought A LOT of high level Ibuki's and she doesn't have anything in particular that should be hard to overcome for Twelve. Also, she actually takes damage.
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
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  • TweleveTweleve fuccboi Joined: Posts: 7,643
    Guys

    Instant EX A.X.E, like how Makoto does it with EX Tsurugi (or whatever the air kick is called)

    This shit, wins matches.
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  • ArtayesArtayes Tiny Toon Joined: Posts: 1,116
    Guys

    Instant EX A.X.E, like how Makoto does it with EX Tsurugi (or whatever the air kick is called)

    This shit, wins matches.

    YES! thanks for posting this. I was able to win a few tough matches with Twelve thanks to using this with the rest of his incredible arsenal. Twelve is such a blast to play with. :wgrin:
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