720s FTW!! (T-Hawk thread)

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Comments

  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    Honda is a frustrating matchup, and more importantly an annoying and often boring matchup.

    Remember that when you do a DP you can pause on DF for quite a while before you have to press punch. This should help you get deeper DPs and maximize the chance of getting the fierce DP to hit twice. It's especially important because Hawk is so damn tall that without pausing on DF you have to start the motion very early to avoid getting kicked in the face. You can wait literally a half second between DF and punch which allows your opponent to get lower to the ground and hopefully into the invulnerable part of the DP animation.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ya Honda hasn't changed much as far as bad matchup goes. If not the worst in vanilla, it hasn't seemed to get much better in HD.

    Really they just have to charge back and do jab headbutts to keep you at bay, and it becomes almost impossible to overcome against a good Honda player. But the Typhoon being a lot easier now has opened up a lot of in with standing 360's.

    I haven't ran into any skilled Honda players as of yet to be honest so I can't attest to the prowess of his Butt Slam, but that used to be effective against Hawk also in ST with the right set-ups. I know odd since we want them close but good Honda players used it well.

    Off Topic: Is the wiki still being used by players and not messed up by griefers? I wrote most of T.Hawks stuff on there but someone came in and constantly jumbled it to the point I gave up. Looks like someone named Decca cleaned it up though.

    If your out there good job Decca :D
  • RikidozanRikidozan IRL Muscle Bomber Joined: Posts: 313
    If your out there good job Decca :D

    Thanks dude, I really appreciate it, especially from another T.Hawk player.

    Props to the guy who included the new HDR inputs. It doesn't seem like many people utilize the wiki, however I love reading about other's than Hawk.

    I really feel like the whiff animation is destroying my old T.Hawk strategy, not it was complicated at all :"keep spinnin' them 360s and release fierce~strong". Now I have to carefully guess when peeps won't reversal, which means never. Honda, Blanka and Cammy can just keep me away.

    Am I the only one still using the old d/b~360~d/b + release method? Yeah the new motion works wonders for walk-in Typhoons, but after cr.jab or cr.short it's just in my mind to spin. I can't seem to do the walk-in SUPER consistently, and
    cr.jab -> cr.jab -> safe SUPER attempt is impossible for me in HDR.

    SIDENOTE:
    From my point of view they should let us try out T.Hawk without a whiff animation, but his Typhoon should rebound much like SFZ3 Zangief's SPD, so you have to work your way in again after each succesful Typhoon.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    hawks whiff animation feels like it changes ticking. sorry. situations where you would be able to walk up 360 after a bounce back or something DONT seem to work anymore. the whiff animation seems to have really really weird properties as well. i swear i cant count the times ive seen the whiff animation come out and then all of a sudden just grab them.


    if anyone wants, i can write up some strategy (what i do) against honda and whoever else if you want
  • gkrohwongkrohwon 7XL Joined: Posts: 1,682
    However his whiff animation charges meter.

    Jab whiff recovers really fast. i think 9 or 10 jab whiffs builds to full.
    I got a present and it come with a banana clip
    Santa Claus muthaf**ka meet the hollow tip
  • RikidozanRikidozan IRL Muscle Bomber Joined: Posts: 313
    However his whiff animation charges meter.

    Jab whiff recovers really fast. i think 9 or 10 jab whiffs builds to full.

    It takes 10 Typhoon whiff's no matter if it's jab, strong or fierce.
  • armaganarmagan Joined: Posts: 70
    A question about new Hawk: j.jab->360 throw doesn't work sometimes. I jump in, do the 360 and Hawk does throw whiff animation, like he can't do the throw. I'm exactly next to the opponent and Hawk doesn't throw. And this is in training mode. What gives?
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Seriously. Hawks jab kills her upkicks like EVERY time unless you do it at the latest point possible and with the heavy startup on upkicks, good luck doing it every time.

    I just played against a solid chun (and player) and the first and last round were just brutal. She still cant do nearly anything about [now old] hawks splash. What I know beats it is jump straight up lk, which works only if hawk is jumping from far and not on top of her, and a lucky air throw (and i stress lucky). If someone can tell me what else can beat his splash id love to know, just for curiosity sakes. As far as i know, once hawk is on top of her with his splash, its gonna tkae a huge mistake for hawk to lose.

    I swear I'm not trying to be the downer against T.Hawk, but a patient Chun can Short Upkicks everything Hawk does from the air... splash, Hawk Dive, and J.Jab. Granted, you can jump from varying distances to make it miss, but it IS a reliable enough anti-air that she can hit these moves with it if she's got good timing and patience.
    A question about new Hawk: j.jab->360 throw doesn't work sometimes. I jump in, do the 360 and Hawk does throw whiff animation, like he can't do the throw. I'm exactly next to the opponent and Hawk doesn't throw. And this is in training mode. What gives?

    Just timing. Before, you would jump, and think you just missed it. The the truth is, you are doing the code while they are still in block stun, so they cannot be grabbed. Wait a fraction of a second, and then do it.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • armaganarmagan Joined: Posts: 70
    Just timing. Before, you would jump, and think you just missed it. The the truth is, you are doing the code while they are still in block stun, so they cannot be grabbed. Wait a fraction of a second, and then do it.

    - James

    Wait. You can't grab while they're in block stun? I remember watching a tutorial video of Zangief in SSF2T grabbing in block stun. Is this Hawk only or did something change in hd remix? Also, I use s.mk->grab a lot, doesn't happen it in block stun?
  • Sanjuro_The_RoninSanjuro_The_Ronin ST 4 life yo! Joined: Posts: 572
    Wait. You can't grab while they're in block stun? I remember watching a tutorial video of Zangief in SSF2T grabbing in block stun. Is this Hawk only or did something change in hd remix? Also, I use s.mk->grab a lot, doesn't happen it in block stun?



    If this is the video your referring to then your wrong, Guile was just coming out of block stun while Gief still had some frames before he actually grabbed him.
    It's kind of late in history to be coming up with real good ideas, luckily I have plenty of really bad fucking ideas.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Yes, you are correct. You CANNOT grab anyone out of Block Stun. If you could, you could just buffer Low Jab into SPD, and it'll grab. No, you HAVE to wait until they come out of it to grab.

    Now, the odd thing is that Gief feels like he has a WINDOW of grabbing, so even if you did it slightly early, it'll start to whiff and THEN grab. You've seen it before when it looks like Gief twitches and THEN grabs. Now, I have NO scientific proof of this concept. It just feels that way from years of using Gief.

    It doesn't seem to work that way for Hawk. I don't think he has that window, again, it might just be how it "feels". But in any case, I too have found myself whiffing his throw a LOT, but that just tells me that in the days of ST, that's probably why I ended up jumping so much when I tried to SPD with Hawk... I was actually doing it too early.

    So just put a fraction of a second delay before trying the SPD, ESPECIALLY with the easier codes that take less time to perform. I find myself whiffing a TON with Hawk just because I do the SPD from D/F to U/B a lot now, and it's SO fast.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    I've seen T Hawk start his whiff animation then go into a throw plenty of times, including in offline play IIRC. At first I thought I was getting the standing jab animation but I'm 95% certain it's the whiff throw animation.
  • Ryu1999Ryu1999 Keyboard Warrior Joined: Posts: 838
    I swear I'm not trying to be the downer against T.Hawk, but a patient Chun can Short Upkicks everything Hawk does from the air... splash, Hawk Dive, and J.Jab. Granted, you can jump from varying distances to make it miss, but it IS a reliable enough anti-air that she can hit these moves with it if she's got good timing and patience.
    - James

    Once Hawk is on top of her with one close range splash, Chun cannot do upkicks anymore as they get beat for free.

    Explanation: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5795173&postcount=28

    Videos : http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5796065&postcount=33
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:25 PM): dammit i need toilet paper, we're all out
    Me (10:27:36 PM): backed up to all get out?
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:40 PM): so i'll shit then shower
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:46 PM): then shave
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:48 PM): brb in a bit
  • Higher-JinHigher-Jin MvC2 Moderator Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Thanks dude, I really appreciate it, especially from another T.Hawk player.

    Props to the guy who included the new HDR inputs. It doesn't seem like many people utilize the wiki, however I love reading about other's than Hawk.

    I really feel like the whiff animation is destroying my old T.Hawk strategy, not it was complicated at all :"keep spinnin' them 360s and release fierce~strong". Now I have to carefully guess when peeps won't reversal, which means never. Honda, Blanka and Cammy can just keep me away.

    Am I the only one still using the old d/b~360~d/b + release method? Yeah the new motion works wonders for walk-in Typhoons, but after cr.jab or cr.short it's just in my mind to spin. I can't seem to do the walk-in SUPER consistently, and
    cr.jab -> cr.jab -> safe SUPER attempt is impossible for me in HDR.

    SIDENOTE:
    From my point of view they should let us try out T.Hawk without a whiff animation, but his Typhoon should rebound much like SFZ3 Zangief's SPD, so you have to work your way in again after each succesful Typhoon.

    To do the walk in super the easy way hold forward, press light kick from max range and immediately do a half circle back. Then wait a milisecond and do another half circle back and end with up + punch. It's easier to go straight up + punch then to press forward + punch. Less distance to travel, and yeah it works.

    Other fucked up shit I found was that you don't even have to do a full half circle for the 360. You can do it from DF or DB. Personally, I like to start at defensive crouch DB, go to D, DF, F, and back + punch. I can even tick them with a max range jab this way, and I can go to block quicker if I fuck up the motion or just plain whiff. (not to mention block anything that tries to hit me before I get started)

    BTW, to the person having trouble with honda hitting back your normals, have you tried standing middle punch and standing hard kick? Those might work better than the crouching moves.
    Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does. - George Orwell
  • RikidozanRikidozan IRL Muscle Bomber Joined: Posts: 313
    snip

    I always try to execute SUPER's without a whiff animation the safe way, so I always end with back + release fierce~strong.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    I swear I'm not trying to be the downer against T.Hawk, but a patient Chun can Short Upkicks everything Hawk does from the air... splash, Hawk Dive, and J.Jab. Granted, you can jump from varying distances to make it miss, but it IS a reliable enough anti-air that she can hit these moves with it if she's got good timing and patience.


    I know you're not trying to be the downer on hawk. I'm glad someone is actually arguing with me and helping me prove that i'm not just spewing bullshit.

    Regardless, going off what ive seen, chuns upkicks BLOW. I may be wrong and if someone can prove me wrong be my guest but their startup is fucking slow and the invincibility seems to be slim to none on ALL versions.

    I think its just that a lot of chuns arent patient. a lot of chuns seem to wanna just be like up in your face rush down and what not. its the same thing that cost hondas a lot of matches against hawk. if honda doesnt move from downback, hawk cant do anything, and the match is over. fortunately no one plays like this.


    honestly i guess what im just trying to say is that upkicks are ridiculously hard to hit ANYONE out of the air with, not just hawk


    i <3 hawk
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Man I hate Akuma.

    I had a kid tonight play keepaway spamming fireballs and air fireballs and I couldn't get close. His fireball recovery time is too quick and both his standing and jumping roundhouses have great priority. Jump jab was neutralized and the Hawk Dive was completely useless.

    Ugh.

    KM
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ya but whether Chun can or cannot do that is irrelevant. We will find a way...we as Hawk players always do.

    Everyone here has been through the struggles...we found horrible stuff out 10 years after this game came out...we're used to it...in fact I think a lot of people here hope Hawk is classed as low tier with bad matchups. We enjoy the challenge, hence why we play him.

    But no matter what is said here...I think we have all learned that no matter what tier people think a character is for years...it doesn't matter with someone who puts the time and effort in.

    Everyone thought T.Hawk was a lost cause till a player named Toutanki (Totanki, Tutanki) came along. We...well not all, but me and a lot of other T Hawk players, learned that with practice we can dominate...not overcome...but dominate.

    Shit ask Balrog after Toutanki's SBO video came out...his ass is still sore.

    P.S. I hope T. Hawk stays tier wise where he was from...keeps the riff raff out.
  • RikidozanRikidozan IRL Muscle Bomber Joined: Posts: 313
    I remember Toutanki rushing Chun Li down with some j.d+fierce splashes there wasn't much she could do. We discussed this matter in the ST Hawk thread, however one mentioned that O.Chun's SBK can counter the splash rushdown. I don't know much about Chun Li's new changes and neither have I faced a decent Chun Li yet.
  • ShishiohShishioh Starbreaker Joined: Posts: 2,924
    Man, Hawk RAPES Sagat if played right!
    "Hitboxes have nothing at all to do with the way a fighting game plays. they are just a means to an end."-Random Discus user
    Written exactly like that.
  • armaganarmagan Joined: Posts: 70
    What I hate most with Hawk is that I can't find anything to punish constant dp'ers. I tried s.hk or c.mp but they just guard or even throw another dp :(
  • MrArcadePerfectMrArcadePerfect Leo Player! Joined: Posts: 480
    Man, Hawk RAPES Sagat if played right!

    what if hes playing a good sagat?
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    STREET FIGHTER 2 will never be the same :(. blame HD SHITMIX
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    What I hate most with Hawk is that I can't find anything to punish constant dp'ers. I tried s.hk or c.mp but they just guard or even throw another dp :(

    walk up, wait, 360.
  • gkrohwongkrohwon 7XL Joined: Posts: 1,682
    then play defensive. stall. make them impatient. you have to make them impatient and also know that youre going to bait their dp and punish.go for making them impatient and unsure of themself.

    jump up and do nothng from 3/4 of the screen away. go max screen and whiff some jab 360s to build meter if they're turtling max screen. dont do this if youre facing rog, vega, or dictator. but they arent really dp characters.

    if youre not being predictable a random hawk dive after some stalling and footies can hit them. if they block it they'll realize you just got a hawk dive to work without them being able to see it coming to dp. if they're good and think that way youve just made them unsure of themself. thats how you get free walk in 360s is by people who hesitate just for that split second for you to walk that foot closer and do the grab.
    I got a present and it come with a banana clip
    Santa Claus muthaf**ka meet the hollow tip
  • armaganarmagan Joined: Posts: 70
    walk up, wait, 360.

    What about jab dp? You can't do this to that. You'll get another dp in the face. At least I know I will.

    then play defensive. stall. make them impatient. you have to make them impatient and also know that youre going to bait their dp and punish.go for making them impatient and unsure of themself.

    jump up and do nothng from 3/4 of the screen away. go max screen and whiff some jab 360s to build meter if they're turtling max screen. dont do this if youre facing rog, vega, or dictator. but they arent really dp characters.

    if youre not being predictable a random hawk dive after some stalling and footies can hit them. if they block it they'll realize you just got a hawk dive to work without them being able to see it coming to dp. if they're good and think that way youve just made them unsure of themself. thats how you get free walk in 360s is by people who hesitate just for that split second for you to walk that foot closer and do the grab.

    I think I'm not that predictable on dives but this tactic doesn't work mostly, if the other player is patient too. A patient Ryu just kicked my ass with c.mk's and doing nothing. Dive mind-games didn't work. He only threw fireballs after c.mk's, never once enough for a dive. He just waited for the sound of the dive for dp and so on. I really didn't know what to do to him..:wasted:
  • Sirlin Snake ShirtSirlin Snake Shirt Joined: Posts: 303
    What about jab dp? You can't do this to that. You'll get another dp in the face. At least I know I will.

    get better reactions
    "If [your objective] is to make the best possible SF game, then catering to novices is obviously going to get in your way." - Seth Killian, 1998
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    get better reactions

    seriously. its not an unbeatable tactic. i do it all the time to shitty kens/ryus
  • ST VegaST Vega Never lose battles. Joined: Posts: 903
    Okay. How do you fight Guile?

    James? Suggestions?
  • Sanjuro_The_RoninSanjuro_The_Ronin ST 4 life yo! Joined: Posts: 572
    Okay. How do you fight Guile?

    James? Suggestions?

    Pure luck on your part and stupidity on the Guile players part.
    It's kind of late in history to be coming up with real good ideas, luckily I have plenty of really bad fucking ideas.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Okay. How do you fight Guile?

    James? Suggestions?

    With T.Hawk? Ummm.... Uh....

    Try to... Hrm. Let's see now.

    Haha, to be honest, I'm not the best person to say. The only things I can offer are that Towards + Jab CAN hit Guile's Low Forward, so if he sticks out, stay outside its range and you can try and discourage him with that. Otherwise, this is a REALLY friggin' tough fight. Others here are waaaaay more qualified to give Hawk advice than me.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    Okay. How do you fight Guile?

    James? Suggestions?

    ask for the old dive back and pyschic dive over a boom. otherwise good luck

    new dive, if it hits or block, guile can push you back out with c.mk and make it bad times for you again. cr.rh with hawk beats booms, cr.mk and cr.hk but its hard to time because the guile player can just wait or jump back to safety.

    psychic dp's miss cr.mk all the time because of dumb hitboxes and its hard to bait flashkicks now because of how far forward it moves.

    pretty much you need to find a knockdown somehow. its REALLY tough because if the guile is smart, he'll never EVER lose his down charge and just constantly harrassing you with cr.mk and booms. your best bet is jumping over a (predicted) boom and going for a tick or dping through a boom for a knockdown. you're not going to get many chances in this match to 360 so once you do, make sure you dont fuck up a safe jump or be too predictble with your patterns

    also, use fierce 360 if you get in. kill that bitch faster.

    one more thing, if you DO get in, dont forget about hawks splash. its old hawks and its fucking DANGEROUS.

    i hate hawk vs guile. id rather play vs sim or claw or even honda.


    i think this is also a guaranteed dizzy - crossup splash, cr.jab x3, jab 360. its dizzied giefs and bisons and such many times.
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    Fun fight.

    Guile doing low forward a lot is your best friend. Low forward spam = you win, just like it does with Zangief for the exact same reason. The best thing you can possibly hope for, other than a Guile player who randomly does flash kicks for no reason, is a Guile player that does low forward too much.

    The dive is basically useless in this fight. You used to be able to jump around outside of flash kick range and use it if you saw a boom come out but now with roundhouse flash going so far that's not an option.

    Standing roundhouse will trade with booms for more damage or beat them outright, and low roundhouse will do the same against low forward.

    You basic strategy here is to keep moving forward. If Guile does nothing you walk up 360, if he throws out a low forward you low roundhouse, if he throws out a sonic boom you hit it with stand roundhouse or jump over. (It's up to you to figure out when to do what - good luck!) If you can't walk up 360 you basically can't win, because to win you either have to actually land a walk up 360 or make Guile fear it enough to throw out a lot of moves instead of sitting on d/b and pecking with booms now and then.

    It's really almost exactly the same fight as with Zangief. Harder than with Zangief, but basically the same strategy.

    The change to Guile's rh flash kick really hurts in this matchup.
  • AdverseSolutionsAdverseSolutions Joined: Posts: 1,106
    started playing hawk. good times. solid character that i'm starting to get the hang of.

    q: what do people follow up hawk dives with? it seems unless you do them very low you aren't close enough for anything except poke string or psychic dp.

    should i be throwing with roundhouse throw?
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    Fun fight.

    Guile doing low forward a lot is your best friend. Low forward spam = you win, just like it does with Zangief for the exact same reason. The best thing you can possibly hope for, other than a Guile player who randomly does flash kicks for no reason, is a Guile player that does low forward too much.

    The dive is basically useless in this fight. You used to be able to jump around outside of flash kick range and use it if you saw a boom come out but now with roundhouse flash going so far that's not an option.

    Standing roundhouse will trade with booms for more damage or beat them outright, and low roundhouse will do the same against low forward.

    You basic strategy here is to keep moving forward. If Guile does nothing you walk up 360, if he throws out a low forward you low roundhouse, if he throws out a sonic boom you hit it with stand roundhouse or jump over. (It's up to you to figure out when to do what - good luck!) If you can't walk up 360 you basically can't win, because to win you either have to actually land a walk up 360 or make Guile fear it enough to throw out a lot of moves instead of sitting on d/b and pecking with booms now and then.

    It's really almost exactly the same fight as with Zangief. Harder than with Zangief, but basically the same strategy.

    The change to Guile's rh flash kick really hurts in this matchup.


    lol you make this match sound like its REALLY easy when in reality, its not. play a good guile like brian.


    yes throw with rh
  • Spirited_AwaySpirited_Away Joined: Posts: 521 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I agree with Gridman, losing the old Hawk Dive made T.Hawk's life miserable against Guile. Standing roundhouse is very important in this match just remember to use it once you are in range to trade hit Guile's boom and don't worry in most cases the trade is in Hawk's advantage. Also if you are in range try to jump with jab/short on reaction to the Boom and then immediately go for a Typhoon/low jab/DP/Rh throw mixup, back in OG if you were successful especially near the corner it's game over for Guile, safe jump -> Typhoon kills him every reversal by Guile is advantage to Hawk but not anymore thanks to the miss animation :(.
  • RikidozanRikidozan IRL Muscle Bomber Joined: Posts: 313
    I couldn't agree more, losing the ability to knockdown with Condor Dive is really a huge obstacle and getting a whiff animation don't make things easier. Since we cannot rely on getting in with a sliver of health and landing the loop, we gotta play more conservative and constantly hope we don't get way too far behind with our health.

    ST:
    Nothing better than Roundhouse throw -> j.jab -> cr.jab -> safe typhoon attempt, Guile reversals with a flashkick and the whole process repeats itself, marvelous.
  • ShishiohShishioh Starbreaker Joined: Posts: 2,924
    what if hes playing a good sagat?

    If you're playing right, it won't matter.
    "Hitboxes have nothing at all to do with the way a fighting game plays. they are just a means to an end."-Random Discus user
    Written exactly like that.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    im gonna sit here and wait for all the non hawk players to disagree about hawks old dive being better.
  • Ryu1999Ryu1999 Keyboard Warrior Joined: Posts: 838
    im gonna sit here and wait for all the non hawk players to disagree about hawks old dive being better.

    Well, Hawk's new dive is better against Sim and Bison....and that's about it.
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:25 PM): dammit i need toilet paper, we're all out
    Me (10:27:36 PM): backed up to all get out?
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:40 PM): so i'll shit then shower
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:46 PM): then shave
    "orangemegaslide" (10:27:48 PM): brb in a bit
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    lol you make this match sound like its REALLY easy when in reality, its not.

    I never implied it was easy, I just outlined a reasonable strategy. Clearly Hawk has to work a lot harder than Guile to win this matchup.
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