SO MANY scrub players....

124

Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Nos99 wrote:
    Or turtle yourself, let the time run out, and nobody has any fun at all. Awesome.

    Except that won't happen. No one who is playing to win wants a draw, and no expert player will concede that there's no way for them to hurt their opponent if they are turtling regardless of the matchup. They will poke and probe until someone lands a hit and then that person, if that is their strategy will then turtle in earnest.

    At this point the other player must break the turtle and either take the health advantage so they can turtle themselves if they want to, or exploit other weaknessess in order to finish the opponent.

    Only one player can really turtle, and that's whoever is ahead in health.

    If my opponent is turtling and I am ahead, I will simply let them play their fools game and allow the clock to award my W. But more likely, they will realize this will happen, and there will be a desperate and interesting game as the player who is behind tries to recapture the lead. Or, if the edge is small, there may be a staring and poking contest until there are seconds left at which point someone will break the stalemate and start a very interesting and tense "final skirmish".

    Nothing boring about that to me.

    Nos99 wrote:
    Mind you, I throw, I'll use whoever, etc. But if you want to win that hard that you'll counter pick EVERY TIME, take zero risks, and are worried more about your own lifebar than draining mine.. I'll let you win. If you want it that bad man, here, take it. I don't care. I don't really play to win...

    How would this attitude translate to playing chess? IMO street fighter should be no different. Why should someone delibrately make a bad decision just because it would please their opponent?

    Nos99 wrote:
    What about certain other banned tactics? If you are "playing to win" shouldn't you use these tactics? Forgive me if this doesn't seem VERY contradictory.

    What "banned tactics"? There are no banned tactics in SFII tournies. Akuma has been banned at various tournaments, but no tactics, stratagies or setups are banned. If you can choose a character, you can use everything they got.

    So there is no contradiction, because there is no banned tactics.

    This of course doesn't count exploiting harmful bugs and glitches such as guiles handcuffs, or being able to lock or reset the machine.

    This follows under the same common-sense understanding that it would be cheating (as well as assault) to punch your opponent IRL in order to win in the game.

    Even banning akuma represents no contradiction because he was never meant to be a balanced character. He was an "easter egg" a playable boss, but not in the same sense as dictator. He was toned down a little, but never fully balanced.

    "Soft-bans" of other characters like claw tended to happen in japan where many players felt the game would be more balanced without them. But even there, there was insufficient reason to actually ban him in the tournament rules. Hence the term "soft ban".

    Nos99 wrote:
    Hell, dropping connection to protect your loss record is a legit strategy if you're "playing to win" and want to keep your standing.

    It's like chess again. If it happens 'on the board' it's all good. But reaching across the board and tweaking one's opponents nose is immediatly understood as a breach. Now the rules of a board game, since they are implemented by people, referrees etc. can address anything, including 'off the board' behavior. But once it's a computer game, the system cannot regulate such things in it's coded rules. The community must.

    Just because it's a chess server, doesn't mean it's ok to send blackmail letters to your opponent in order to win.

    Same with SFII, the game's code doesn't regulate out-of-game conduct, but any idiot can recognise that that is cheating. There is no slippery slope to doing everything within the confines of the game to win and other out-of game nonesense.

    And it is clear that dropping for rank is not a legitamate tactic in the online chess world as most servers have rules to prevent this. And it is implicitly understood that trying to manipluate one's rating through dropping to the maximum allowed in the server scoring/rating system would still be against the spirit of the rules and not respected.

    Well it's the same for remix. Droppers are awarded a loss so it is clear that the intention is to discourage such behavior.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Except that won't happen. No one who is playing to win wants a draw, and no expert player will concede that there's no way for them to hurt their opponent if they are turtling regardless of the matchup. They will poke and probe until someone lands a hit and then that person, if that is their strategy will then turtle in earnest.

    At this point the other player must break the turtle and either take the health advantage so they can turtle themselves if they want to, or exploit other weaknessess in order to finish the opponent.

    Only one player can really turtle, and that's whoever is ahead in health.

    If my opponent is turtling and I am ahead, I will simply let them play their fools game and allow the clock to award my W. But more likely, they will realize this will happen, and there will be a desperate and interesting game as the player who is behind tries to recapture the lead. Or, if the edge is small, there may be a staring and poking contest until there are seconds left at which point someone will break the stalemate and start a very interesting and tense "final skirmish".

    Nothing boring about that to me.




    How would this attitude translate to playing chess? IMO street fighter should be no different. Why should someone delibrately make a bad decision just because it would please their opponent?




    What "banned tactics"? There are no banned tactics in SFII tournies. Akuma has been banned at various tournaments, but no tactics, stratagies or setups are banned. If you can choose a character, you can use everything they got.

    So there is no contradiction, because there is no banned tactics.

    This of course doesn't count exploiting harmful bugs and glitches such as guiles handcuffs, or being able to lock or reset the machine.

    This follows under the same common-sense understanding that it would be cheating (as well as assault) to punch your opponent IRL in order to win in the game.

    Even banning akuma represents no contradiction because he was never meant to be a balanced character. He was an "easter egg" a playable boss, but not in the same sense as dictator. He was toned down a little, but never fully balanced.

    "Soft-bans" of other characters like claw tended to happen in japan where many players felt the game would be more balanced without them. But even there, there was insufficient reason to actually ban him in the tournament rules. Hence the term "soft ban".




    It's like chess again. If it happens 'on the board' it's all good. But reaching across the board and tweaking one's opponents nose is immediatly understood as a breach. Now the rules of a board game, since they are implemented by people, referrees etc. can address anything, including 'off the board' behavior. But once it's a computer game, the system cannot regulate such things in it's coded rules. The community must.

    Just because it's a chess server, doesn't mean it's ok to send blackmail letters to your opponent in order to win.

    Same with SFII, the game's code doesn't regulate out-of-game conduct, but any idiot can recognise that that is cheating. There is no slippery slope to doing everything within the confines of the game to win and other out-of game nonesense.

    And it is clear that dropping for rank is not a legitamate tactic in the online chess world as most servers have rules to prevent this. And it is implicitly understood that trying to manipluate one's rating through dropping to the maximum allowed in the server scoring/rating system would still be against the spirit of the rules and not respected.

    Well it's the same for remix. Droppers are awarded a loss so it is clear that the intention is to discourage such behavior.

    If it drops before the match even starts, do they still penalize? i don't care about my rating, but if I have more losses than necessary it may still make me look bad in front of the people I play with.
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  • ShinBlankaShinBlanka 神Blanka Joined: Posts: 7,165 mod

    I remember everyone around here considered throwing "cheap". So if you were to accidentally throw someone in a match you'd do something called "respect" and let the other guy throw you back haha, good ol days... I dunno that might've been just a thing that started around here, I dunno if anything like that ever existed in the States...

    I remember these days also. We were all young and stupid back then imo. I've gotten into fist fight's over throwing people back in the day. I was called a scrub, cheap bastard, and personal attacks lead to a fight most of the time. I stop throwing when some people started to get shot in the head for being cheap. People were dying in the ATL for being cheap so I stop playing sf.:confused: Fuck dying over some dumbshit because some people are so weak and wack that they have to shoot someone because they lost. I came back after college and those weak minded people with GUNs wasn't playing SF anymore.

    The basic's of sf is the same imo. If someone blocks to fucking much or to fucking well then YOU THROW THAT ASS TO DEATH! I bet you think fb/dp traps are cool though? Some people might think that was cheap.:rolleyes: Anything can be called CHeap if you don't know how to deal with it imo. Cheap is a cop-out imo. Unless the character is broken there is nothing that is cheap about how someone choose to play that character. If they want to fb/dp trap you to death then figure away out of it. If they want to throw you to death figure away out of it.

    Don't sit here and complain about how you lost to someone that so called "CHEAPED YOU OUT"! Did they magic throw you? Or handcuff you?:confused: If not then you just got beat and you don't know how to take losing to something over, and over, and over again. You should be mad at yourself for losing to the same shit over and over again instead of calling people cheap.:rofl: Learn how to beat/counter the bs that someone was doing to you or stop playing this game.

    With that attitude you have about fighters and the way people are SUPPOSE to play fighting games you might want to quit playing fighting games sir. I'm not talking shit to you sir. This is just a reality check for you. If you think a scrub equals to a player that pokes, does random things to throw you off and throws alot is a scrub then you don't know what a scrub is imo. A person with a good understanding of the footies game and the throw game isn't a scrub imo, but to each it's own.:rolleyes: If you have a ps3 don't add me to your list or play against me because i'm one of those throwing/poking/random scrubs you talked about.:rolleyes::wgrin::rofl:

    P.S.- If you are a casual player then I understand why anyone would think like you. I understand if that is the case. Most casual players don't care about the whole "WIN AT ALL COST" mind set. They just want to play and have fun at playing sf and playing those type of players isn't fun to a casual player. I understand that part of the arguement. I just don't agree with someone calling people scrubs due to them losing to dumb shit they could never stop in 18 years of playing sf! Playing turtle man to end of clock/timer matches suck for casual sf guy. Playing tick throwing guy sucks for casual guy also.

    I don't know whatelse to tell you casual guy. It pretty much sucks for you if you play against win at all cost guy!
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  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,322
  • kliqueykliquey Jump Kick Footsweep! Joined: Posts: 358
    I'm a scrub. I throw loop all day if it works, I don't care! If they don't like it they can leave the room I'm playing in. There are people who can stop throw loops and I'd rather play them than someone who jumps away and randomly does hurricane kicks all day. Sorry!

    Winning is winning! If I'm in a room with 5 other people (me being #6) I would much rather throw and win and keep dominating than lose and have to wait forever for my turn again.
  • KrsJinKrsJin Cheat Kune Do Joined: Posts: 1,347
    122079455998.jpg

    I got the joke :/ and tried to turn it into another based off of another post. I wasn't trying to get at you or anything lol.
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    I'm a scrub. I throw loop all day if it works, I don't care! If they don't like it they can leave the room I'm playing in. There are people who can stop throw loops and I'd rather play them than someone who jumps away and randomly does hurricane kicks all day. Sorry!

    Winning is winning! If I'm in a room with 5 other people (me being #6) I would much rather throw and win and keep dominating than lose and have to wait forever for my turn again.

    If the person can't escape from whatever you're doing, then you're doing the right thing. If they bitch, tell them they suck. I don't even tick throw that often and still get complaints when I do (even when it is painfully obvious that I would've won without it).
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  • UboUbo Joined: Posts: 107
    I'mma Scrub, I like to get my ass beat. Tells me I have to work harder to get better.
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  • MechanicaMechanica elias the flyest Joined: Posts: 6,252
    I'mma Scrub, I like to get my ass beat. Tells me I have to work harder to get better.

    Then you're not a scrub. Scrubs are the people who whine about losing.
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  • Nos99Nos99 Science Scrub Joined: Posts: 4,651
    Only one player can really turtle, and that's whoever is ahead in health.

    That's not true. Both can turtle. Time runs out. Ta-da!
    But more likely, they will realize this will happen, and there will be a desperate and interesting game as the player who is behind tries to recapture the lead.

    Interesting? Especially if you've been horribly counter-picked, this can be far from interesting. All I see is some guy worried more about his own lifebar than his opponent's, and seems especially silly if they've already got a clear advantage in the character match-up to begin with. They're not "playing to win", they're "playing to not lose".

    Sure, you play however you want, but surely you can understand if someone might find this excruciatingly tedious. Especially if every match of a set turns into this bore-fest, I wouldn't expect most casual people to keep playing for long. Probably rather go see the dentist.
    How would this attitude translate to playing chess? IMO street fighter should be no different. Why should someone delibrately make a bad decision just because it would please their opponent?

    Why not? I like to make people happy. :P I let people win all the time.
    So there is no contradiction, because there is no banned tactics.

    Sorry, I was being general.. fighting games in general I mean. Just pointing out that anything you ban totally contradicts the "playing to win" mantra as it is in the game to begin with, and it's just using some arbitrary logic when you ban something.

    All the other tools like aggravating the other player emotionally, dropping connection, etc, are met with the "but it's not in the game!" defense, but then what about all these banned tactics, characters, glicthes, bugs, etc? They are also in the game too! But these are not fair! But I'm playing to win, I don't cater to "fair"! Any tool at my disposal! But it's too good of a tool! etc etc.

    Hell, if you could cheat and get away with it, it would be "playing to win". No honor right? Or is there? If there is, how much does the honor cover? Seems pretty arbitrary on the whole if you ask me.
  • The MullahThe Mullah lk kara throw repeat Joined: Posts: 2,666
    i like playing shit players



    i prefer good comp, since playing people who don't know how to push their characters to the limit is boring, but then i'm not crap at sf
  • Nos99Nos99 Science Scrub Joined: Posts: 4,651
    ^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    btw: You sent me a friends request after playing me. Are you a shit player? :P
  • The MullahThe Mullah lk kara throw repeat Joined: Posts: 2,666
    you'll have to trust me on this one, once you get better, it's only fun playing excellence, be it rush down or turtling. your problem is you, not your opp.

    There's nothing you could have done that would have prevented me from accepting your friend request unless you couldn't play for shit. gg's i guess? You must have hated playing me, literally all i do is throw with blanka. My aim is to piss people off since its one of blankas unusual abilities. Whats your gamertag?
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,372 mod
    Yeah I like Blanka in ST cuz his whole game is basically the opposite of what scrubs and noobs would consider fair. Tick throws and shenanigans all day to win. I like gimmicky characters and that's how he wins.

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  • Nos99Nos99 Science Scrub Joined: Posts: 4,651
    A bunch of us play on wurvey or BestKindBoxer gamertags. Could be me, my roommates or friends.

    Trying to stop Blanka throw is fun! :P I just think some of you guys should be more understanding of the fact that for MOST PEOPLE this is "just a game", and playing to win is not for everyone.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 55,372 mod
    The people who play to win already understand the people that are playing "just a game" but the people that are just playing a game are probably better off playing Prince of Persia or Resident Evil or something else that thrives on being "just a game". You can't play a game that is or can in any way be competitive and not find people that want to exploit it and play to win. Even games that are meant by the developers to be party games or games just for fun like Smash Bros are tainted by people who see the obvious competitive aspect in the game and want to prove themselves in it. Man finds fun in being above another man.

    Playing to win is a human characteristic and since the beginning of time anything that man has found to be compeititive it will take to exploiting and looking to be the best in. Whether it's the NBA or Rock Paper Scissors. Hell...they have national RPS tournaments and that game is arguably based entirely on percentages and well...luck. It is getting into someone's head that is the most rewarding and interesting part of any competitive sport where the players are actively fighting against one another's strategies.

    I see people set up rooms that have a bunch of Halo or Gears of War avatars and are obviously playing SF just to take a break and mess around in something other than their main games. HD Remix is their 4:00 tea time game away from their Halo or Gears of War professions. Maybe some are older former SF players who liked the original arcade experience and would more than likely scoff at what it takes to be highly competitive at SF in 2008. Some are younger players who simply heard of or played SF back in the day and would be nowhere near in the mental mindset to play against anyone who understands serious competitive SF. They have their fun until someone like myself comes in and ruins their parade. I'll perfect or double perfect them and they all leave the room in a jiffy.

    What makes it tougher to not play to win in this game is that the most popular mode in the game is player match. Similar to a true match in an arcade the person who is "playing to win" has the most fun. Why? Because they are playing the MOST OFTEN. People who are playing for fun are knocked out of the competition and have to go back to get their virtual quarters and step back in the bottom of the line. Especially if there's six people in the room you don't want to have to wait 10 minutes or more before you can play again. Winning and losing means the difference between playing and simply watching other people in front of you play a game. The game simply rewards people who are winning.

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  • ramzaramza hmmm Joined: Posts: 2,481
    Or turtle yourself, let the time run out, and nobody has any fun at all. Awesome.

    To be honest, "playing to win" can be boring as fuck sometimes. Most fighting games turn into a boring shit-fest at high level play anyhow IMO. Spamming uber safe moves, doing the same shit over and over, taking no risks at all, picking the characters that take the least amount of brain-power and execution, etc. For a tournament, sure, whatever it takes.. but for a casual pickup game with some noobs online?

    If you want to be an uber-leet tournament winner, then great, good for you. I know this is SRK and people want to lick every top player's balls and would do anything to be like them so this will probably fall on deaf ears... but this "win at all costs no matter what or how" is not for everyone. There are some of us out there that just want to play some games, do a few combos, pick a bunch of characters, etc.

    Mind you, I throw, I'll use whoever, etc. But if you want to win that hard that you'll counter pick EVERY TIME, take zero risks, and are worried more about your own lifebar than draining mine.. I'll let you win. If you want it that bad man, here, take it. I don't care. I don't really play to win so what does it matter to me? I'll play, but if it gets boring, I'll stop. Is there really anything wrong with that? Call me a 'scrub' or whatever, but ultimately, it's about what is "fun". I'm not going to be a world tourney winner, I don't want to be one, so I couldn't be bothered to torture myself sometimes against all the dumb shit that exits in some of these games.. especially if the other guys is doing nothing but.

    deep down, you don't like this game. play guilty gear or something and rush, rush away. i get bored with this game so I can only play it every so often. but what you described is exactly what this game is. all that stuff you're describing requires you to think, and is mentally stressful to maintain. you want to play without thinking, which is fine. that is what most people who play any SF game find "fun", though. the thinking part. about the other human. on 2p side. just emphasizing. to make sure. u should play arkanoid, that game is mad fun, i can never hit the last block, but its fun trying:smile:
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  • Gutter TrashGutter Trash You have no dignity! Joined: Posts: 275
    Dhalsim_MX made me laugh twice.

    I am not a competition level SFer but if your PSN ID name is based on a SF character: I will assume that you are very good with this character and that I will give you no mercy if I meet you.

    Luck of the draw, I pick Vega claw and my ranking opponent is Dhalsim_MX using Dhalsim... knowing that this match up is in my favor, I do not give Dhalsim any breathing room... then Dhalsim_MX drops on me after round 1 lol... okay.. whatever

    1 hours later, ... I select E.Honda... then I bump into Dhalsim_MX again.... then I go oh boy, I may be in trouble with Fireball Traps and Drilling... but then I score a knockdown against him then i go for the tick throws with Ochio..... twice.. I win round 1........ Dhalsim_MX drops on me

    so... rule of thumb, do not give your GT or PSN ID name a SF character's name, players will assume that you are good with that character and will not hold back against you... then when you lose with the character of your own name, you drop the match the save face ..... lol whatever
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  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    To be honest, "playing to win" can be boring as fuck sometimes.

    This is why I'll never main Guile. Eventually I'd have to play this mirror match.
  • neoKENneoKEN Joined: Posts: 115
    Throw topics, lol. Sure, do what you must to win, but I can definitely see why some people complain.

    I remember back in the days of A.G.SF2 on the newsgroup, there was hot debates about ST throws. It wasn't scrubs arguing, but amongst top players. AGSF2 is an era before shoryuken.com and long before internet became so widely available.

    Throws are tools that every character has, but they are far more easier to do than to get out of. In some case, you can beat better players with more emphasis on throws than working on your overall technical game. There was a US cvs2 player that entered a Japanese ST tournament and beat some 'true' top ST players. He mention he didn't really play ST and mostly just threw his opponent.

    To put things into perspective, throws have been tone down significantly since ST. These changes happen for a reason, and no one is really complaining.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    They toned down throws, they toned down projectiles... Cripes, IMO 3rd strike has turned into a giant parry-fest.

    To me, this hurt the game and lots of players do wish they didn't do that. You just don't hear me complaining because I don't play it instead. Much simpler solution than spitting into the wind.

    Same with throws in SFII, people who don't like them can just play 3S or something.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Throws are tools that every character has, but they are far more easier to do than to get out of.


    I disagree. At least amoung experts. The person attempting a tick is just as likely to be reversed before the hit, or counter-thrown/reversed after. Unless they do it with safe-hits or superior range throws, getting reversed is a great risk - that's why you don't see a lot of "mindless" walk-up or jump short ticks in tournaments. Not because they are dishonerable, but because they are generally a bad idea.

    In top-level play, you see more whiff throws than tic throws because while whiff throws are more reversable, they come with a very potent and often fast mind game that makes them even nastier than tics. And in the aformentioned case of safe-out-of-defenders-range tic throws, those are most certianly not easy for a beginner to do, and therefore deserve their reward. They are also generally only possible to do with characters that have such a hard time gettin in close enough to do them, that things are balanced out.

    Tics are only so nasty because beginners don't expect them or know how to counter them. Experts do.
  • EmblemLordEmblemLord Lord of all Lords Joined: Posts: 5,749
    Throws in ST are indeed very strong and tick throw set-ups are much harder to get out of then they are to initiate, but w/e.

    That's the game.

    If you don't like it, then it's not like we are on a shortage of good fighters. There is plenty of other stuff you can play.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    There is nothing better than out-poking, jumping around, throwing and generally frustrating players who have their little script they run and can't adapt.

    I see a lot of this in Fei players, Guile players, and Bison players.

    I love figuring out someones little game and exploiting. Listening to them cry about me running and being cheap is classic.

    Sorry we all arent punching bags for combo masters.
  • NevermoreNevermore Scrubby in disguise. Joined: Posts: 1,194
  • lseelbalseelba You must defeat ShengLong Joined: Posts: 870
    This is why I'll never main Guile. Eventually I'd have to play this mirror match.

    Guile mirror matches are awesome. My favorite mirror match to play.
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  • KrosKros Mak n Sak Joined: Posts: 611
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  • nakatominakatomi Longdickey! Joined: Posts: 835
    I remember these days also. We were all young and stupid back then imo. I've gotten into fist fight's over throwing people back in the day. I was called a scrub, cheap bastard, and personal attacks lead to a fight most of the time. I stop throwing when some people started to get shot in the head for being cheap. People were dying in the ATL for being cheap so I stop playing sf.:confused: Fuck dying over some dumbshit because some people are so weak and wack that they have to shoot someone because they lost. I came back after college and those weak minded people with GUNs wasn't playing SF anymore.

    The basic's of sf is the same imo. If someone blocks to fucking much or to fucking well then YOU THROW THAT ASS TO DEATH! I bet you think fb/dp traps are cool though? Some people might think that was cheap.:rolleyes: Anything can be called CHeap if you don't know how to deal with it imo. Cheap is a cop-out imo. Unless the character is broken there is nothing that is cheap about how someone choose to play that character. If they want to fb/dp trap you to death then figure away out of it. If they want to throw you to death figure away out of it.

    Don't sit here and complain about how you lost to someone that so called "CHEAPED YOU OUT"! Did they magic throw you? Or handcuff you?:confused: If not then you just got beat and you don't know how to take losing to something over, and over, and over again. You should be mad at yourself for losing to the same shit over and over again instead of calling people cheap.:rofl: Learn how to beat/counter the bs that someone was doing to you or stop playing this game.

    With that attitude you have about fighters and the way people are SUPPOSE to play fighting games you might want to quit playing fighting games sir. I'm not talking shit to you sir. This is just a reality check for you. If you think a scrub equals to a player that pokes, does random things to throw you off and throws alot is a scrub then you don't know what a scrub is imo. A person with a good understanding of the footies game and the throw game isn't a scrub imo, but to each it's own.:rolleyes: If you have a ps3 don't add me to your list or play against me because i'm one of those throwing/poking/random scrubs you talked about.:rolleyes::wgrin::rofl:

    P.S.- If you are a casual player then I understand why anyone would think like you. I understand if that is the case. Most casual players don't care about the whole "WIN AT ALL COST" mind set. They just want to play and have fun at playing sf and playing those type of players isn't fun to a casual player. I understand that part of the arguement. I just don't agree with someone calling people scrubs due to them losing to dumb shit they could never stop in 18 years of playing sf! Playing turtle man to end of clock/timer matches suck for casual sf guy. Playing tick throwing guy sucks for casual guy also.

    I don't know whatelse to tell you casual guy. It pretty much sucks for you if you play against win at all cost guy!

    Well said man. I never seen anyone dying over SF, but I've definitely seen and been an unfortunate participant in fights over SF back in the mid 90s
  • Moe PowellMoe Powell Nomadic Joined: Posts: 582
    u guys ever find that you've played sooooo many scrubs that u totally dumb down your game to make it some WHAT interesting.

    i personally love playing tick throw people. U can sense their despiration once they've realized they cant use that tactic on u........ this is usually the time the person drops from the match.

    lol i totally remember the days when throwing was considered cheap. U would let the person throw u back. God i miss those days. I think i'm going to start giving 2nds. Make it truly retrospective. Thats what i always feel when i play this game. The past and hertiage of sf.

    add me if you'd like some ggs
    psn: moe_powell
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,631
    So if this is what Street Figher is all about just poking turtling, throwing all day, then I'm sorry, you guys are right.... I didn't know that this was the way to play this game. It's just after all these years, I thought a game like this would've evolved into something different.

    What did you think it would evolve into? who can do the biggest combo?:rofl:

    All fighting games are about 1 thing and 1 thing only: WINNING.

    There is no "way to play the game". Sure there are some strategies that are more successful then others like the ones you listed but that's part of the beauty of the game there is no "you must do exactly this to win" it's all about doing whatever gets you the W at that moment.

    You can be a god at execution and be able to do all the fancy 9000 hit combos you want but if you're not able to use your head and strategically plan then all your technical skill means NOTHING. First and foremost street fighter is a mind game or a mashup of several mind games and although technical dexterity is essential it takes a back seat to the mental part of the game. I started playing STHD on stick a few days ago so my execution sucks but I'm still able to beat players who never miss combos because I can mentally process everything I need to win and utilize it which is the point of the game.

    I'm more impressed with a player who can beat me doing the same thing over and over again rather then someone who can beat me with a big combo. Why? well if someone can beat me repeating the same thing that means he knows I know to expect it yet he still tricks me enough to fall for whatever it is and thus beating me in the game of yomi...THAT is true skill.

    I don't care how cheap or skill less you think your opponent was because if he beat you that means at least for that 1 match he was the smarter, faster, and better player.
    Albedo, the thing to realize is that these are all just tools. Normal moves, throws, combos, cross-ups, supers. Each one is important, but you have to make proper use of these at all times.:

    :china:

    Combos in general are super important because of how obviously powerful and game ending they can be but they're more like something to keep on hand just in case rather then something to consistently use.

    Justin wong said it best: The most important thing in fighting games is being able to capitalize on your opponents openings and combo them because you want to get as much damage as possible since you usually don't get many openings.


    So they're something to keep on hand just in case but unless you're taira don't expect to rely om them as your main way of getting dat W.

    I'll end this rant with a great quite from S-kill: I play fighting games to make the other guy look bad.
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    You can be a god at execution and be able to do all the fancy 9000 hit combos you want but if you're not able to use your head and strategically plan then all your technical skill means NOTHING.

    Rose summed this up the best when she said this in Street Fighter Alpha 1...

    Power without skill is nothing.

    Your post is well said, sir. Big ups to shinblanka, too. Your post made me kinda glad I didn't get over there to the ATL for college like I planned. I can remember *hearing* about fights over here in the 619, but I never saw a punch thrown, much less heard about someone getting shot.

    It's a sad thing when a society gets lazy enough in their thinking to the point of cursing the things they don't understand...instead of seeing it as an opportunity to learn something. It's like we think we'll use up too much energy if we do.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Since one of the main points of the thread is about tick throws and how to counter them, I figure this is worth asking:

    How do you guys practice tick throw counters?

    Do you just practice reversal throwing during normal matches until you get it down pact? Do you have a friend go with you in training mode and constantly try to tick throw you until you get it down? It would help a lot of the beginners (like myself) and whiners that come running to this thread.
  • BrentoBoxBrentoBox Drip Drip Drip Joined: Posts: 2,926
    Another good example is when you get your opponent dizzy. This is the best opportunity to dish out the damage, right? Typically, I see people do throws or something. Sure that does good damage (if it isn't teched) but doesn't a 3 hit fierce combo do like twice that amount of damage? Fuck fancy, that actually DOES DAMAGE. But I wonder why people don't do that? Maybe cause they aren't capable of doing it?

    Hopefully someone gets what I'm trying to say here...

    One reason is because great players can mash out of dizzy in under a second, so even the time to jump in and land a combo can be dangerous. Throwing is assured and does great damage if not teched.
    "Upback is the new downback." - Airthrow

    :dp: We da best.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Since one of the main points of the thread is about tick throws and how to counter them, I figure this is worth asking:

    How do you guys practice tick throw counters?

    Do you just practice reversal throwing during normal matches until you get it down pact? Do you have a friend go with you in training mode and constantly try to tick throw you until you get it down? It would help a lot of the beginners (like myself) and whiners that come running to this thread.

    First, you have to have a feel for hit stun and block stun. You have to know how long hit stun and block stun last depending on whether you were hit or you blocked a light, medium, or hard attack. That's something that can only come from playing the game. Obviously, it's much easier to counter-throw a tick following a hard attack than it is from a light attack due to the amount of stun you're dealing with, so you can use that as a starting point.

    Once you have a feel for the different types of stun, you can time your counter-throw attempts with the ending of hit/block stun more consistently. For an extra edge, you can use the "piano" method (highlighted in the CCC2 Tutorial by Sirlin). Basically, when you try to counter-throw, quickly hit the buttons you want to throw with in rapid succession, like doing scales on a piano. (Much easier to practice with two buttons on the same row, so start there.)

    When you get a reasonable feel for counter-throwing, you're ready to practice special/super move reversal timing. Remember that you can do reversal special/super moves on the last frame of hit/block stun. Same practicing principles apply. The piano method helps with execution here, as well.

    But, before you go rushing out thinking that the above is all you need...remember the SFA1 Rose quote I posted earlier. In a match, none of the above matters if you can't out-think your opponent (especially when they're ticking with light attacks). You need to be able to recognize set-ups. When you recognize them, you can do something about them...whether it be counter them...set them up yourself or...best defense no be there!

    It all comes together with practice...so get out there and practice!
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    First, you have to have a feel for hit stun and block stun. You have to know how long hit stun and block stun last depending on whether you were hit or you blocked a light, medium, or hard attack. That's something that can only come from playing the game. Obviously, it's much easier to counter-throw a tick following a hard attack than it is from a light attack due to the amount of stun you're dealing with, so you can use that as a starting point.

    Once you have a feel for the different types of stun, you can time your counter-throw attempts with the ending of hit/block stun more consistently. For an extra edge, you can use the "piano" method (highlighted in the CCC2 Tutorial by Sirlin). Basically, when you try to counter-throw, quickly hit the buttons you want to throw with in rapid succession, like doing scales on a piano. (Much easier to practice with two buttons on the same row, so start there.)

    When you get a reasonable feel for counter-throwing, you're ready to practice special/super move reversal timing. Remember that you can do reversal special/super moves on the last frame of hit/block stun. Same practicing principles apply. The piano method helps with execution here, as well.

    But, before you go rushing out thinking that the above is all you need...remember the SFA1 Rose quote I posted earlier. In a match, none of the above matters if you can't out-think your opponent (especially when they're ticking with light attacks). You need to be able to recognize set-ups. When you recognize them, you can do something about them...whether it be counter them...set them up yourself or...best defense no be there!

    It all comes together with practice...so get out there and practice!


    I appreciate the response. I've already been practicing the piano method of reversal throwing with strong and fierce (since I use Dictator). I just wish I had a chance to play expert players a bit more. I feel like I'm growing bad habits from constantly fighting people that fall for the same stuff. I need to fight against more variety and adaptation. ;_;
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    I appreciate the response. I've already been practicing the piano method of reversal throwing with strong and fierce (since I use Dictator). I just wish I had a chance to play expert players a bit more. I feel like I'm growing bad habits from constantly fighting people that fall for the same stuff. I need to fight against more variety and adaptation. ;_;

    That's exactly why this website exists. :)

    You should go over to the Online Matching forums and make some friends. I can't wait to actually get a 360, download this game, and do the same. I know my skills are slippin' from not having had decent comp in YEARS. :)
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Well it's just that I remember when I was growing up SF2 was HUGE, convince stores, arcades, shopping malls, where ever... a lot of the people I saw played A LOT more differently around here...

    I remember everyone around here considered throwing "cheap". So if you were to accidentally throw someone in a match you'd do something called "respect" and let the other guy throw you back haha, good ol days... I dunno that might've been just a thing that started around here, I dunno if anything like that ever existed in the States...

    Actually, I remember that! we used to do that in the arcades in Sacramento waay back, or if someone threw you more than twice, you'd "throw" the match, cause it was looked down on badly. Yeah whatever happened to the unsaid rules? Hypercombos and million hit combos happened, nothing against those type of games, but its pretty much a mashfest outside of commands.

    Well if anybody wants a good match with an old schooler like me, add Soulcerer :wonder:
  • ShintoShinto Mr. Solo Dolo Joined: Posts: 1,585
    u guys ever find that you've played sooooo many scrubs that u totally dumb down your game.

    Yes.


    I need to get pwned.
    East Coast.
    Nyc_Shinto = Psn
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    People who complain about the rules in any game have one thing in common:They think they are better than they are and want to keep thinking that.

    I cannot emphasize that enough. This is truely the root of the anti-throw mentality.

    See, when someone loses to someone, thay must either admit they found yet another person in their league, found their better, or simply played badly.

    But if they find themselves losing more often, then one needs an explanation, a rationale as to why they, who in thier own mind is uber l33t, would lose so many matches.

    Or they think combo's are the be-all and can do some, but they lose to a thrower or a zoner. Now they are so proud of their combo skill that they want to think that makes them the best at the game. So if another game within the game beats them they rationalize that either the game is flawed, or that the person they are playing "broke" the game with their "unfair" tactics.

    They truely think that if someone beats them without using combo's then something must be wrong. Also note that the combo-player always has an excuse when they lose to another combo-player. They say "aargh, I messed up my combo, I would have had you" Or "If only I wouldn't have messed up that block".

    Anything to protect the ego.

    Oh well, whatever helps them sleep at night.
  • CptMuntaCptMunta 3 Green Bars Joined: Posts: 1,207
    ^
    Truth,

    If someone tick throws me with lagg there's bound to be lagg at their end too. So I just tick throw them back. no biggy. They are using a tactic to their advantage good for them.

    I used to get frustrated with my bison vs honda. Especially when it was laggy and they spammed slaps. So I had to learn a way around it.

    If someone spams something and you can find a way around it you there game falls apart 80% of the time. Because they have to think.

    What I think is cool is being beaten by a someone with no skill but just outsmarts me. I can see he can't combo or pull of dragon punches I think I can own the match since I've measured his skill. And then out of nowhere he reads me like a book baits moves and throws me.

    It just shows that there are alot of new people in this game coming up with new ways of doing things. That's whats so cool about the reboot of the series is seeing new ways to play this 20 year old game.
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod

    if you know when to step it up against better players and when to dumb it down for bad ones, that's a good thing... why the hell would you over think things or try to show off against bad players


    the fucking truth
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • VOLTECHVOLTECH Voltech Arcade Sticks FTW Joined: Posts: 3,040
    Does anyone know where\why the "chump" thing started or why everyone thinks that tic throwing is bad? :sad:

    I remember when I was first starting out and someone whould throw the other guy sometimes a fight would break out in the arcade or 7-11 we played at. People where pissed that they got thrown I never understood it. (It's like hey your smarter than me I wanna hurt you now) If you got thrown you where out smarted plain and simple not cheated I think people need to step up their game if they cant reverse a simple throw. I dare someone to try and tick throw me please try I beg you to throw me oh and just try and spam fireballs at me I love that stuff.
    You see throwing is PART OF THE GAME!!! It gives you options.

    Example: you get a safe jump on someone with say roundhouse they block you get a couple of options here 1. either follow up with your combo and see if something gets through or they take a little chip damage. 2. You can try for a throw and go for big damage. This is what most people fail to understand 3. they can tech your throw for only a fraction of the damage or God forbid they reverse throw you and you take the damage. Either way it's a gamble. People seem to think a throw is non reversable but I do it all the time. Here's my little secret for those who don't get it.

    Block the first attack hold the stick away from the attacker and tap your throw button if they keep attacking you will keep blocking if they try and throw, then you where ready for it and will probably get it. The Timeing takes practice but it's a basic skill every scrub should learn.

    If you find yourself losing to these throwing scrubs than what does that make you??????:looney:

    It seems to me the better players don't complain about being throw because they understand how to use it and why it's in the game.

    just my humble opinion :D
    Quality over Quantity
    voltecharcadesticks@gmail.com
    http://voltecharcadesticks.blogspot.com/
    Voltech Arcade Sticks FTW!!!
  • Moe PowellMoe Powell Nomadic Joined: Posts: 582
    i think the only time tick throw was considered cheap was in the original sf2. Where no reversals existed. So realistically once u get swept its gg for u. That is cheap. But since then reversals were introduced but people still held on to the believe that throwing was cheap. Hence y theres been such a stigma behind the tick throw shit.

    where is this online match making thread u speak of?
  • Corner-TrapCorner-Trap Troll Harder Joined: Posts: 2,683
    A scrub calling everyone else a scrub, lol at the irony. And here I thought everyone on SRK read Sirlin's playing to win book by this point in time.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    i think the only time tick throw was considered cheap was in the original sf2. Where no reversals existed. So realistically once u get swept its gg for u. That is cheap. But since then reversals were introduced but people still held on to the believe that throwing was cheap. Hence y theres been such a stigma behind the tick throw shit.

    where is this online match making thread u speak of?

    Look up to the thread path near the top of this page and click on "Shoryuken". You'll see "Discussion Groups" and then (Play "discovery" tune from The Legend Of Zelda)..."Online Forums". Given that you're scrolling past it to get to the "Strategy Zone", I'm surprised you didn't notice it.

    While you're at it, you may want to look at how many different forums exist on this website...like at the bottom of the main page, there's a section for "Regional Matchmaking"...so you could possibly get your arcade real-life versus skills tested.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    It seemed that SSFII for the Snes didn't have throw reversals. If Im correct, then any players coming from the console version > HDR shouldn't be complaining at all. Seeing that there are reversals actually made me like it even more.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • AcidGlowAcidGlow ~Misogi~ Joined: Posts: 407
    Start making a friends list and just play with them. That's one way to avoid all the scrubby live players you speak of.
  • raeliraeli Showtime! Joined: Posts: 3,905
    I played against someone who was playing Akuma, and I was playing good ol' Zangief. Well, the first round ended tragically in that I got a good corner game in on him, with a flying splash crossup into SPD, then tick throwed him when he got up and then hit him with the Super when he got out of that. Kid raged so hard and said "Fight me without throws."

    So I spinning lariated him down. Everyone in the lobby was dying of laughter whenever he realized he couldn't fireball me during that.

    Of course, he left the game before he could die of the kick lariat.
    themightyraeli
    I'm free.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    It seemed that SSFII for the Snes didn't have throw reversals. If Im correct, then any players coming from the console version > HDR shouldn't be complaining at all. Seeing that there are reversals actually made me like it even more.

    I played that version a lot (made a FAQ from it) and...yes...it did have throw reversals...as in being able to counter a throw with a throw in the same window you could do a reversal special move.

    Tech throws...that happened in ST.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • Radiantsilvergun3Radiantsilvergun3 Smooth Criminal Joined: Posts: 11,277
    All I'm trying say here is that there is a higher level of play... Street fighter has been out forever now, and these kinds of games that are played at a higher level shape the game into something else. A great example would be Super Smash brothers Melee, I remember playing that game at first thinking I mastered it. Then I randomly stumbled upon a video online showing a SSBB tournament. I was fricken AMAZED when I saw that, people utilizing wave dashing, edge defense and all this craziness. I thought to myself, wow... this game is completely something different when played at a higher level, that makes it SO much more fun to watch, and apparently, so much more fun to play.

    Now anyone watch SSF2T combo videos? Yes a lot of those aren't doable in a real match, but someone I faced did something very very similar to the things I saw on that.... and I was like wow SSF2T played at this level, that's insane...

    So if this is what Street Figher is all about just poking turtling, throwing all day, then I'm sorry, you guys are right.... I didn't know that this was the way to play this game. It's just after all these years, I thought a game like this would've evolved into something different.
    If you want a game full of high hit combo's an shit then Guilty Gear or Marvel might be more your bag. SFII has combo's but there's a time and a place for them and those windows don't show up as much.
    RoninChaos: A snap back is when you pimp slap a bitch with your back hand, and snap back around to catch her with the front.

    In this one and only life, I fear not death but monotony
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