The New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
It's 2009, and HDTVs are still as laggy as ever. Let's take a look at what went wrong, and how a savvy consumer can now eliminate the issue altogether. If you're unfamiliar with any of the terms in this FAQ, read a general HDTV guide first. This guide will not benefit you if you don't understand the very basics of HDTVs.
For our intents and purposes, the old HDTV FAQ is a now outdated, so please refer to this one for the most current and relevant information.
Why do games lag on HDTVs?
There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.
A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).
What is wrong with Postprocessing?
The key issue with Postprocessing in consumer-grade displays is that it isn't optional. Many HDTVs have a "Game Mode" in which the main purpose is to disable both Scaling/Deinterlacing delay and Postprocessing delay. However, even with "Game Mode" enabled, most HDTVs still suffer from lag due to postprocessing that simply can't be disabled.
How much does my set suffer from HDTV Game Lag?
There are two different ways to test this. One is with a copy of Guitar Hero II or higher. These titles includes a calibration test, which gives you the delay in milliseconds after testing a "note" going down the screen. You can strum with the D-Pad of your controller (no guitar controller necessary).
The other way is with a copy of Rock Band 2. Rock Band 2 includes a calibration test with no input required from the user. The lag is measured automatically using the Rock Band 2 Guitar and Microphone. This is the most accurate method at the time of this writing for the average consumer to measure HDTV Game Lag.
You'll want to conduct two different tests, one for HD resolution (720p, 1080i/p) and one for non-HD resolution (480i/p). You can accomplish this by changing the resolution in your X-Box 360 or PS3 settings.
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why is this important? There are THOUSANDS of HDTVs. Nobody knows how much X or Y HDTV lags off the top of their head--even if they own the HDTV, most people are royal newbs so they're not going to actually do a real test (like Rock Band 2), they're just going to pull some shit out of their ass and tell you it's fine when they play Halo 3 and live in permanent denial.
The only way to see if an HDTV you want to buy lags is to go to the store and test it yourself with Guitar Hero 2+ or preferably Rock Band 2. If you bought your HDTV from a retail store, there is a 99.9% chance it lags, and probably still lags even with Game Mode enabled. If you are buying your HDTV online because of a "good deal" or whatever, good for you, but you ARE taking a risk and nobody can help you. Anyway, relax--that's what this guide is for, to help you get around the lag anyway.
Frame Conversion:
1 frame is approximately 17 milliseconds.
Ideal (unnoticeable) delay for fighting or rhythm games is 8 milliseconds or less, or 1/2 of a frame.
Acceptable (playable) delay is 9 to 34 milliseconds, or 1/2 of a frame to 2 frames. Note that while gameplay will still be affected by a delay of 2 frames, most people will still have a difficult time noticing the difference immediately.
Unacceptable (unplayable) delay is over 34 milliseconds, or anything higher than 2 frames. Typically, this is a point when timing-sensitive gamers will even feel a delay at the menu screen or with the cursor when selecting a character.
The Best Solution: Commercial-grade HDTV Displays
What if there were an HDTV that had both lightning-fast scaling as well as no unnecessary and bloated postprocessing?
Guess what: they're here. They're just not marketed towards you and me. They are marketed towards Emergency Centers, Network Operations Centers, hospitals, airports, and other businesses requiring accurate, up-to-the-millisecond digital signage under a 24x7 environment. To see more, Google "digital signage" or similar. The same type of monitors are used in HD arcade cabinets, which is why they don't lag.
While these sets do not typically include HDTV tuners (and thus, are not officially sold as televisions), 95% of you HDTV watchers probably have a box from your cable company that does this already. Just hook it up through Component/DVI/HDMI and you're ready to roll.
Better yet, Commercial-grade HDTVs do not have ridiculous branding all over the monitor bezel like your typical Sharp, Samsung, or Sony. They are simplistic and classy, like something you'd see in a movie. This is just my opinion, but I think that the 2008 HDTV models from these companies have looked hideous; definitely not something I'd want to mount on my wall.
Without further adieu, my newest HD display, the Viewsonic CD4620:
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/digital-signage/cd4620.htm
Purchased from Newegg at the link below:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116111
This set has a definite 4ms or lower delay on every signal I've thrown at it so far, both SD and HD with no extra gadgets required. The price is definitely high for a 46" display, but was still about $500 cheaper than a 46" 2008 Sony Bravia XBR6 and thousands cheaper than the XBR8. Furthermore, unlike the Sony Bravia sets, this one doesn't lag!
The next-best solution: HD Fury or Console VGA cable
This is the best solution if you have already made your HDTV purchase and do not plan on upgrading!
http://www.hdfury.com/
The HD Fury is a device that allows you to connect any HDMI device (with HDCP) to a regular analog RGB input port. The original intention of this device is to hook up HDMI devices to analog-only monitors or projectors, and strip the HDCP protection for standard viewing. In our situation, we might be able to eliminate lag with it.
How? Turns out, many (but not all) HDTVs don't have postprocessing enabled on the VGA port only. That means if you simply plug your PS3/X360 into the VGA port, you should be able to both get high-definition output (with Blu-Ray support, etc) but avoid the 40+ms lag induced by most consumer HDTV postprocessing. The HD Fury doesn't actually do any upscaling or downscaling; it simply converts the signal from digital to analog.
If it's an X-Box 360 you need to hook up, there is an official Microsoft VGA Cable which will accomplish the same thing with much less work.
If it's a PS3 or Wii you need to hook up, there is a 3rd party cable that ought to do the trick.
These cables should take care of what the HD Fury does much more cheaply, but of course only work with the specific consoles!
What about my Playstation 2 or older console?
If you're still worried about gaming on your PS2, you can still use the HD PRO BOX (Cheap!) or the XRGB-2+ to get a "straight-to-VGA" connection for HDTVs and also rid yourself of those pesky 480i signals that would've caused even more lag.
Remember that Dreamcast doesn't need an upscaling box, you can simply purchase a Dreamcast VGA box and hook it up straight to your HDTV's VGA port for theoretical lag-free gaming.
There's also the excellent DVDO Edge, which completely eliminates upscaling lag but won't do much for postprocessing lag issues. If you were to pair this up with an HD Fury, you'd have the ultimate combination since you could hook up all of your consoles to the DVDO Edge and then output everything at once to your HDTV's lag-free VGA port!
~~
Let's get cracking on a lag-free future!
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
It's 2009, and HDTVs are still as laggy as ever. Let's take a look at what went wrong, and how a savvy consumer can now eliminate the issue altogether. If you're unfamiliar with any of the terms in this FAQ, read a general HDTV guide first. This guide will not benefit you if you don't understand the very basics of HDTVs.
For our intents and purposes, the old HDTV FAQ is a now outdated, so please refer to this one for the most current and relevant information.
Why do games lag on HDTVs?
There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.
A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).
What is wrong with Postprocessing?
The key issue with Postprocessing in consumer-grade displays is that it isn't optional. Many HDTVs have a "Game Mode" in which the main purpose is to disable both Scaling/Deinterlacing delay and Postprocessing delay. However, even with "Game Mode" enabled, most HDTVs still suffer from lag due to postprocessing that simply can't be disabled.
How much does my set suffer from HDTV Game Lag?
There are two different ways to test this. One is with a copy of Guitar Hero II or higher. These titles includes a calibration test, which gives you the delay in milliseconds after testing a "note" going down the screen. You can strum with the D-Pad of your controller (no guitar controller necessary).
The other way is with a copy of Rock Band 2. Rock Band 2 includes a calibration test with no input required from the user. The lag is measured automatically using the Rock Band 2 Guitar and Microphone. This is the most accurate method at the time of this writing for the average consumer to measure HDTV Game Lag.
You'll want to conduct two different tests, one for HD resolution (720p, 1080i/p) and one for non-HD resolution (480i/p). You can accomplish this by changing the resolution in your X-Box 360 or PS3 settings.
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why is this important? There are THOUSANDS of HDTVs. Nobody knows how much X or Y HDTV lags off the top of their head--even if they own the HDTV, most people are royal newbs so they're not going to actually do a real test (like Rock Band 2), they're just going to pull some shit out of their ass and tell you it's fine when they play Halo 3 and live in permanent denial.
The only way to see if an HDTV you want to buy lags is to go to the store and test it yourself with Guitar Hero 2+ or preferably Rock Band 2. If you bought your HDTV from a retail store, there is a 99.9% chance it lags, and probably still lags even with Game Mode enabled. If you are buying your HDTV online because of a "good deal" or whatever, good for you, but you ARE taking a risk and nobody can help you. Anyway, relax--that's what this guide is for, to help you get around the lag anyway.
Frame Conversion:
1 frame is approximately 17 milliseconds.
Ideal (unnoticeable) delay for fighting or rhythm games is 8 milliseconds or less, or 1/2 of a frame.
Acceptable (playable) delay is 9 to 34 milliseconds, or 1/2 of a frame to 2 frames. Note that while gameplay will still be affected by a delay of 2 frames, most people will still have a difficult time noticing the difference immediately.
Unacceptable (unplayable) delay is over 34 milliseconds, or anything higher than 2 frames. Typically, this is a point when timing-sensitive gamers will even feel a delay at the menu screen or with the cursor when selecting a character.
The Best Solution: Commercial-grade HDTV Displays
What if there were an HDTV that had both lightning-fast scaling as well as no unnecessary and bloated postprocessing?
Guess what: they're here. They're just not marketed towards you and me. They are marketed towards Emergency Centers, Network Operations Centers, hospitals, airports, and other businesses requiring accurate, up-to-the-millisecond digital signage under a 24x7 environment. To see more, Google "digital signage" or similar. The same type of monitors are used in HD arcade cabinets, which is why they don't lag.
While these sets do not typically include HDTV tuners (and thus, are not officially sold as televisions), 95% of you HDTV watchers probably have a box from your cable company that does this already. Just hook it up through Component/DVI/HDMI and you're ready to roll.
Better yet, Commercial-grade HDTVs do not have ridiculous branding all over the monitor bezel like your typical Sharp, Samsung, or Sony. They are simplistic and classy, like something you'd see in a movie. This is just my opinion, but I think that the 2008 HDTV models from these companies have looked hideous; definitely not something I'd want to mount on my wall.
Without further adieu, my newest HD display, the Viewsonic CD4620:
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/digital-signage/cd4620.htm
Purchased from Newegg at the link below:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116111
This set has a definite 4ms or lower delay on every signal I've thrown at it so far, both SD and HD with no extra gadgets required. The price is definitely high for a 46" display, but was still about $500 cheaper than a 46" 2008 Sony Bravia XBR6 and thousands cheaper than the XBR8. Furthermore, unlike the Sony Bravia sets, this one doesn't lag!
The next-best solution: HD Fury or Console VGA cable
This is the best solution if you have already made your HDTV purchase and do not plan on upgrading!
http://www.hdfury.com/
The HD Fury is a device that allows you to connect any HDMI device (with HDCP) to a regular analog RGB input port. The original intention of this device is to hook up HDMI devices to analog-only monitors or projectors, and strip the HDCP protection for standard viewing. In our situation, we might be able to eliminate lag with it.
How? Turns out, many (but not all) HDTVs don't have postprocessing enabled on the VGA port only. That means if you simply plug your PS3/X360 into the VGA port, you should be able to both get high-definition output (with Blu-Ray support, etc) but avoid the 40+ms lag induced by most consumer HDTV postprocessing. The HD Fury doesn't actually do any upscaling or downscaling; it simply converts the signal from digital to analog.
If it's an X-Box 360 you need to hook up, there is an official Microsoft VGA Cable which will accomplish the same thing with much less work.
If it's a PS3 or Wii you need to hook up, there is a 3rd party cable that ought to do the trick.
These cables should take care of what the HD Fury does much more cheaply, but of course only work with the specific consoles!
What about my Playstation 2 or older console?
If you're still worried about gaming on your PS2, you can still use the HD PRO BOX (Cheap!) or the XRGB-2+ to get a "straight-to-VGA" connection for HDTVs and also rid yourself of those pesky 480i signals that would've caused even more lag.
Remember that Dreamcast doesn't need an upscaling box, you can simply purchase a Dreamcast VGA box and hook it up straight to your HDTV's VGA port for theoretical lag-free gaming.
There's also the excellent DVDO Edge, which completely eliminates upscaling lag but won't do much for postprocessing lag issues. If you were to pair this up with an HD Fury, you'd have the ultimate combination since you could hook up all of your consoles to the DVDO Edge and then output everything at once to your HDTV's lag-free VGA port!
~~
Let's get cracking on a lag-free future!
The background is favored in this matchup.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLA: No
:D
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLGrab a CRT monitor and a computer that can do dual display. Hookup the computer to both the TV and the monitor, and "clone" (ie both screens show the same thing, make sure you're sending the HDTV its native resolution). Start a stopwatch application and take several pictures of the HDTV and CRT monitor side by side. The difference in the times show on the CRT stopwatch and the HDTV stopwatch tell you how much lag you have. Taking several pictures helps capture any variation and give you a min/max number.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLhttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236052
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why is this important? There are THOUSANDS of HDTVs. Nobody knows how much X or Y HDTV lags off the top of their head--even if they own the HDTV, most people are royal newbs so they're not going to actually do a real test (like Rock Band 2), they're just going to pull some shit out of their ass and tell you it's fine when they play Halo 3 and live in permanent denial.
There may be BANS in the future for thread repliers who do not read the first post! You have been warned!
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLhttp://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y
It has everything you need to know about different kinds of PC LCD monitors, and lists several recommendations for Hardcore Gaming and how they compare in terms of total input lag.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLCombos are in your fingers. The lag of your TV does NOT affect your ability to do a combo you already have memorized. What it WILL screw over is your ability to do things like hit confirms or react to certain in-game stimuli like "oh snaps, that's an overhead!", because the display is running behind the actual game.
It's very hard to "feel" the lag in a TV without being attuned to it if the lag isn't horrible, but it will affect your play.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLMarvel vs Capcom 2 and Arcana Heart 3 matches and combos: youtube.com/juanniG
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLThis is my favorite part, considering there are several threads on avsforum talking about this exact same issue with nearly the exact same information (although poonage has put it together in a better format).
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLProject Justice: Yurika/Chairperson/Kurow | AE2012: Rose | BlazBlue CS: Noel | Soulcalibur V: Viola
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLThat's really too bad if your HDTV doesn't accept the 640x480 resolution via VGA!
You COULD try pairing the VGA box up with an Audio Authority 9A60 which would give you Component output. This would at least get rid of your upscaling lag.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLOne thought, though - the HD Fury isn't really necessary if you own a 360, as the 360 already has an official VGA cable to output through. I imagine it'll be a good idea for PS3 owners, though.
Project Justice: Yurika/Chairperson/Kurow | AE2012: Rose | BlazBlue CS: Noel | Soulcalibur V: Viola
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLNinja Edit: Here's your $5 HK product ;)
Wii and PS3 VGA Cable: http://www.mayflash.com/vgabox/vga004/vga004.htm
Note that this cable does not strip HDCP protection like the HD Fury so you would lose the ability to watch Blu-Ray movies on a PS3 with this cable.
Excellent point, overlooked and will be added.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLFunny, a few days ago I was just wondering "I wonder if there are big 1920x1080 LCDs that don't have TV tuners and the bells and whistles HDTVs have, just HDMI, VGA and DVI". I know computer monitors fit this description, but they aren't big enough to work as a TV you would watch while sitting on a couch, more of a watch while sitting on an office chair.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLUhh, yeah, HDTV lag doesn't have anything to do with the actual game title.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLI hope you realize a one-frame lag is already reason for whining, even if it's not quite human-detectable in practice... And without game mode activated HDTVs lag considerably, period. Even a Sharp Aquos needs Game Mode on (I've seen this myself last Sunday at a friend's house).
12000 B.C. - Dark Ages
"The black wind begins to blow..."
"Can you hear that? It's the sound of the Reaper."
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLB] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).
What is wrong with Postprocessing?
The key issue with Postprocessing in consumer-grade displays is that it isn't optional. Many HDTVs have a "Game Mode" in which the main purpose is to disable both Scaling/Deinterlacing delay and Postprocessing delay. However, even with "Game Mode" enabled, most HDTVs still suffer from lag due to postprocessing that simply can't be disabled.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLEven though you mentioned postprocessing, you should probably add some of the PS3 backward compatibility questions to the FAQ. So when people do a search for the page it becomes more noticeable as a bold question. Just a suggestion.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLFrom Poonage:
Turns out, many (but not all) HDTVs don't have postprocessing enabled on the VGA port only.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLEvery TV is going to have lag. It's just the way it is....however, if that lag is going to affect gameplay, the answer..most of the time no. If you set up your TV correctly you won't have any issues.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125
It's best to go through the thread to get more updated info. (OP is from 2005 with updates in 2007)
You don't need to spend 2300 for an ugly 46 inch set. 1500-1800 will buy a top notch 50-52 inch model that will give you minimum lag (ie: you can't notice the lag)
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLwtf are you bitching about now?
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLI did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY... I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one's in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLgame mod simply speeds up the scaling/processing time. Generally by about 30-50% (depnding on the TV/Brand)
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLTo answer your underlined question, no. Response time is how long it takes for a pixel to change color, which is important if you're worried about image ghosting. It does not correspond to input lag/latency, which is what is covered in the Frame Conversion section.
Project Justice: Yurika/Chairperson/Kurow | AE2012: Rose | BlazBlue CS: Noel | Soulcalibur V: Viola
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLThis is actually just a misunderstanding. That's the time it takes an LCD's pixels to change states, which actually has nothing to do with how much input lag it has. You can read a detailed explanation about Response Time here:
http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html
HDTV manufacturers do not advertise how much input lag their sets have.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLWhile this is generally true, I think there are some exceptions- I know for me, there are some combos I do from muscle memory, and some from visual/audio cues. In MvC2 I would probably have a better shot of doing Iron Man/War Machine's sj.cancel crouching MP infinte setup with lag than the actual infinite. And in some games CCs are the same way- juggling with standing normals into super jump attacks in CvS2, and some A3 stuff I find I do by vision. Though, you may be surprised how quickly you adjust, so it's really important to be able to test the same thing on a display with no lag.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLit sure does on my samsung Samsung LE 37 M 86.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLI actually got this 'GIGAWARE' VGA to Component converter from radioshack, about 100 bucks, and it didn't work...maybe because it was a cheap gigaware/radioshack brand (if you search for gigaware on radioshack, they literally make everything there...) for some reason, it also had me hook up to the VGA port on my TV anyway (makes no sense...)
maybe there was still lag on the component end? even with game mode it lagged. here's the link, *ahem* it's a PC to TV converter... http://www.radioshack.com/pwr/product-reviews/Computers/Components-parts/Video-capture-cards/Gigaware/p/2756876-Gigaware-reg-PC-to-TV-Converter.html
but maybe your recommendations will be better.
Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Arcana Heart 3 matches and combos: youtube.com/juanniG
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL720p lags 2 frames
480p lags 2 frames
480i lags 4 frames
Emprex LCD 32" Model3202
720p lags 1 frame
480p lags 1 frame
480i lags 4 frames
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLavsforums.com dude. You'll get your answers there.
edit: Or just ask Cynn, he definately knows his sh1t.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL- Spam
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLI have a 24.5" Full 1080p 2ms LCD monitor that I bought on x-mas which is currently hooked up to my 360 through VGA (non-elite model). This is the setup that I plan to use 90% of the time to play SF4. So according to your FAQ, I should be pretty safe with VGA correct?
Also, I have a 50" Panasonic 720p/1080i Plasma HDTV which I mostly use for movies. In the past I have noticed quite a bit of lag when playing Rock Band 1, so noticeable that I had to go into the settings and try to calibrate my TV. So I know for sure my TV lags. My question is, without a VGA port nor gaming mode on my HDTV, is there another way to reduce the lag? Thanks.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLThank you poonage.
I have a Sony WEGA TV. Despite the fact that it is CRT (tube), it has about 30-35ms of lag when calibrated with Rock Band 2's wireless guitar(video lag only, no audio lag). Just a heads up for other WEGA owners. I barely noticed it in fighting games but I definitely noticed it on music games, such as the drum fill mode on Rock Band 2. It's only very slightly off, but it is there.
-find the truth on page 318 of the Thinking Out Loud Thread V.2
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLI wonder if anyone here has one.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLThis is taken from this thread over at the AVS forums.
VGA mode / 1080p.
Average lag: 0-8ms
0.0-0.5 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)
59.7 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)
VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.
Average lag: 0-8ms
0.0-0.5 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)
59.7 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)
HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.
Average lag: 6-15ms
0.3-1 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)
59.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)
HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.
Average lag: 15-25ms
1-2 Frame delay.
Average FD: 1.5 Frame
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.
(approved for pro level gaming)
HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.
Average lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)
HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.
Average Lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)
Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.
Average Lag: 80-100ms
5-6 frame delay
Average FD: 5.5 Frame
54.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)
Thanks to gmanvbva, from AVS, for extensively testing this using the PC method.
As you can see VGA is clearly the way to go with this set if you want near lagless gaming. But the picture quality and movie quality will suffer somewhat. HDMI2 labled PC has slightly more lag but if you rename the input to anything other than PC, you get all the processing back and a beautiful picture for movies and games that aren't as lag sensitive as fighters. I'm very happy with my 650!
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLWow, those are some kickass specs for the 650! Thanks for sharing and congrats on your purchase. The VGA mode looks perfect (as expected) but it sounds like the HDMI2 PC Mode is a real godsend.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLSince then I got a regular composite (red/white/yellow) a/v cables for my Saturn to test, seems like basically no lag in game mode, but still the random ghosting still exists, though not as bad as with the s-video cables IIRC. You win this round, PS2.
I also tested a DC with a VGA cable, seemed to be playable, but I can't really say. Given the results I've had with PS2/Saturn, I wouldn't be surprised if the composite video were better.
Generally though, results are sort of in line with the other Toshi results in this thread;
So hopefully some of the higher-end Toshibas (mind is kind of a low-end model) gernerally also have good game modes. Again, I can't run any legit tests, but I would suggest you at least try out a Toshiba if you're shopping around.
Critically, it is important for me to mention that I haven't tested any Xbox 360/PS3 games, so I can't speak as to lag for games being converted from any resolution above 480p. Given my results with PS2 games in progressive mode (480p), they might be far less promising.
Game mode on my TV lowers the resolution of what's being shown, yes.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOLYou should read the FAQ more or perhaps something more in depth. You seem to still be lacking an understanding in said subject.
Yeah it should, sadly. It turns off all the post processing effects so your TV can concentrate on running a fast image not a pretty one. That's the sacrifice you make for a shorter ms loss.
For those in the market for something a little better looking the 550 and 450 have HDMI2/PC modes. While the screen itself isn't as nice looking as the 650 it's a great budget alternative.
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0 · Off Topic Insightful Disagree Agree Like LOL