The New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ

poonagepoonage not ryan harveyJoined: Posts: 1,403
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.
RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.

It's 2009, and HDTVs are still as laggy as ever. Let's take a look at what went wrong, and how a savvy consumer can now eliminate the issue altogether. If you're unfamiliar with any of the terms in this FAQ, read a general HDTV guide first. This guide will not benefit you if you don't understand the very basics of HDTVs.

For our intents and purposes, the old HDTV FAQ is a now outdated, so please refer to this one for the most current and relevant information.


Why do games lag on HDTVs?

There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.

A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).


What is wrong with Postprocessing?

The key issue with Postprocessing in consumer-grade displays is that it isn't optional. Many HDTVs have a "Game Mode" in which the main purpose is to disable both Scaling/Deinterlacing delay and Postprocessing delay. However, even with "Game Mode" enabled, most HDTVs still suffer from lag due to postprocessing that simply can't be disabled.


How much does my set suffer from HDTV Game Lag?

There are two different ways to test this. One is with a copy of Guitar Hero II or higher. These titles includes a calibration test, which gives you the delay in milliseconds after testing a "note" going down the screen. You can strum with the D-Pad of your controller (no guitar controller necessary).

The other way is with a copy of Rock Band 2. Rock Band 2 includes a calibration test with no input required from the user. The lag is measured automatically using the Rock Band 2 Guitar and Microphone. This is the most accurate method at the time of this writing for the average consumer to measure HDTV Game Lag.

You'll want to conduct two different tests, one for HD resolution (720p, 1080i/p) and one for non-HD resolution (480i/p). You can accomplish this by changing the resolution in your X-Box 360 or PS3 settings.

!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is this important? There are THOUSANDS of HDTVs. Nobody knows how much X or Y HDTV lags off the top of their head--even if they own the HDTV, most people are royal newbs so they're not going to actually do a real test (like Rock Band 2), they're just going to pull some shit out of their ass and tell you it's fine when they play Halo 3 and live in permanent denial.

The only way to see if an HDTV you want to buy lags is to go to the store and test it yourself with Guitar Hero 2+ or preferably Rock Band 2. If you bought your HDTV from a retail store, there is a 99.9% chance it lags, and probably still lags even with Game Mode enabled. If you are buying your HDTV online because of a "good deal" or whatever, good for you, but you ARE taking a risk and nobody can help you. Anyway, relax--that's what this guide is for, to help you get around the lag anyway.

Frame Conversion:

1 frame is approximately 17 milliseconds.
Ideal (unnoticeable) delay for fighting or rhythm games is 8 milliseconds or less, or 1/2 of a frame.

Acceptable (playable) delay is 9 to 34 milliseconds, or 1/2 of a frame to 2 frames. Note that while gameplay will still be affected by a delay of 2 frames, most people will still have a difficult time noticing the difference immediately.

Unacceptable (unplayable) delay is over 34 milliseconds, or anything higher than 2 frames. Typically, this is a point when timing-sensitive gamers will even feel a delay at the menu screen or with the cursor when selecting a character.


The Best Solution: Commercial-grade HDTV Displays

What if there were an HDTV that had both lightning-fast scaling as well as no unnecessary and bloated postprocessing?

Guess what: they're here. They're just not marketed towards you and me. They are marketed towards Emergency Centers, Network Operations Centers, hospitals, airports, and other businesses requiring accurate, up-to-the-millisecond digital signage under a 24x7 environment. To see more, Google "digital signage" or similar. The same type of monitors are used in HD arcade cabinets, which is why they don't lag.

While these sets do not typically include HDTV tuners (and thus, are not officially sold as televisions), 95% of you HDTV watchers probably have a box from your cable company that does this already. Just hook it up through Component/DVI/HDMI and you're ready to roll.

Better yet, Commercial-grade HDTVs do not have ridiculous branding all over the monitor bezel like your typical Sharp, Samsung, or Sony. They are simplistic and classy, like something you'd see in a movie. This is just my opinion, but I think that the 2008 HDTV models from these companies have looked hideous; definitely not something I'd want to mount on my wall.

Without further adieu, my newest HD display, the Viewsonic CD4620:

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/digital-signage/cd4620.htm


Purchased from Newegg at the link below:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116111


This set has a definite 4ms or lower delay on every signal I've thrown at it so far, both SD and HD with no extra gadgets required. The price is definitely high for a 46" display, but was still about $500 cheaper than a 46" 2008 Sony Bravia XBR6 and thousands cheaper than the XBR8. Furthermore, unlike the Sony Bravia sets, this one doesn't lag!


The next-best solution: HD Fury or Console VGA cable
This is the best solution if you have already made your HDTV purchase and do not plan on upgrading!

http://www.hdfury.com/

The HD Fury is a device that allows you to connect any HDMI device (with HDCP) to a regular analog RGB input port. The original intention of this device is to hook up HDMI devices to analog-only monitors or projectors, and strip the HDCP protection for standard viewing. In our situation, we might be able to eliminate lag with it.

How? Turns out, many (but not all) HDTVs don't have postprocessing enabled on the VGA port only. That means if you simply plug your PS3/X360 into the VGA port, you should be able to both get high-definition output (with Blu-Ray support, etc) but avoid the 40+ms lag induced by most consumer HDTV postprocessing. The HD Fury doesn't actually do any upscaling or downscaling; it simply converts the signal from digital to analog.

If it's an X-Box 360 you need to hook up, there is an official Microsoft VGA Cable which will accomplish the same thing with much less work.

If it's a PS3 or Wii you need to hook up, there is a 3rd party cable that ought to do the trick.


These cables should take care of what the HD Fury does much more cheaply, but of course only work with the specific consoles!


What about my Playstation 2 or older console?

If you're still worried about gaming on your PS2, you can still use the HD PRO BOX (Cheap!) or the XRGB-2+ to get a "straight-to-VGA" connection for HDTVs and also rid yourself of those pesky 480i signals that would've caused even more lag.

Remember that Dreamcast doesn't need an upscaling box, you can simply purchase a Dreamcast VGA box and hook it up straight to your HDTV's VGA port for theoretical lag-free gaming.

There's also the excellent DVDO Edge, which completely eliminates upscaling lag but won't do much for postprocessing lag issues. If you were to pair this up with an HD Fury, you'd have the ultimate combination since you could hook up all of your consoles to the DVDO Edge and then output everything at once to your HDTV's lag-free VGA port!


~~

Let's get cracking on a lag-free future!
The background is favored in this matchup.
«13456784

Comments

  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    Placeholder.
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    edited 5:47AM
    , payday loans, ccrqr,
    Post edited by Unknown User at
  • JedisonJedison 1 posts Joined: Posts: 134
    Q: Is HDTV lag an actual legitimate excuse?

    A: No

    :D
    Saskatchewan Street Fighter
  • crackbonecrackbone Balls. Joined: Posts: 662
    Another method to test, which is actually much more accurate, but requires more work:

    Grab a CRT monitor and a computer that can do dual display. Hookup the computer to both the TV and the monitor, and "clone" (ie both screens show the same thing, make sure you're sending the HDTV its native resolution). Start a stopwatch application and take several pictures of the HDTV and CRT monitor side by side. The difference in the times show on the CRT stopwatch and the HDTV stopwatch tell you how much lag you have. Taking several pictures helps capture any variation and give you a min/max number.
    Zandwich's PM to me: "Ur gay"
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    Are there any Dell 23/24 inch monitors with 1080P that have low lag and hdmi connections? I'd rather avoid spending 2200 dollars... my budget is closer to 400 or less.
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    Are there any Dell 23/24 inch monitors with 1080P that have low lag and hdmi connections? I'd rather avoid spending 2200 dollars... my budget is closer to 400 or less.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236052
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    man stfu wit this LAG shit i have 3 HDTV's in my house NONE of them Lag.... one is a 32 one is 47 one is a 57....one is LCD one is DLP one is PLASMA. SHUT THE FUCK UP THREADSTARTER.....that will be all
  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    Are there any Dell 23/24 inch monitors with 1080P that have low lag and hdmi connections? I'd rather avoid spending 2200 dollars... my budget is closer to 400 or less.

    !!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!DO NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE HOW MUCH AN HDTV LAGS! TEST IT YOURSELF AND POST RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    man stfu wit this LAG shit i have 3 HDTV's in my house NONE of them Lag.... one is a 32 one is 47 one is a 57....one is LCD one is DLP one is PLASMA. SHUT THE FUCK UP THREADSTARTER.....that will be all

    Why is this important? There are THOUSANDS of HDTVs. Nobody knows how much X or Y HDTV lags off the top of their head--even if they own the HDTV, most people are royal newbs so they're not going to actually do a real test (like Rock Band 2), they're just going to pull some shit out of their ass and tell you it's fine when they play Halo 3 and live in permanent denial.


    There may be BANS in the future for thread repliers who do not read the first post! You have been warned!
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • Gwyrgyn BloodGwyrgyn Blood Joined: Posts: 682
    For all things PC Monitor related, check this thread:
    http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y

    It has everything you need to know about different kinds of PC LCD monitors, and lists several recommendations for Hardcore Gaming and how they compare in terms of total input lag.
  • vapulusvapulus MAXIMUM RISKY Joined: Posts: 456
    Also, as a side note, people need to not post things like "I was able to do X combo reliably in Y game, so the lag is unnoticeable".

    Combos are in your fingers. The lag of your TV does NOT affect your ability to do a combo you already have memorized. What it WILL screw over is your ability to do things like hit confirms or react to certain in-game stimuli like "oh snaps, that's an overhead!", because the display is running behind the actual game.

    It's very hard to "feel" the lag in a TV without being attuned to it if the lag isn't horrible, but it will affect your play.
    I like a vanilla milkshake more than I like you. I'm serious.
  • BeaTs*BeaTs* ∞ Consciousness Joined: Posts: 6,518
    are there any options for playing dreamcast on an HDTV without VGA ports...or in my case, with a VGA port that doesn't support the resolution from a dreamcast VGA box?
    Love and Light Arcana, Awakening comes in Flower Multilayers
    Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Arcana Heart 3 matches and combos: youtube.com/juanniG
  • vapulusvapulus MAXIMUM RISKY Joined: Posts: 456
    If you feel im just talking shit ....visit avsforum.com and see for yourself.

    This is my favorite part, considering there are several threads on avsforum talking about this exact same issue with nearly the exact same information (although poonage has put it together in a better format).
    I like a vanilla milkshake more than I like you. I'm serious.
  • NeoChaosXNeoChaosX loves violin music Joined: Posts: 642
    are there any options for playing dreamcast on an HDTV without VGA ports...or in my case, with a VGA port that doesn't support the resolution from a dreamcast VGA box?
    I'd say look for a VGA-to-component converter like the Audio Authority 9A60. I got it since my HDTV doesn't have a VGA port, and it works pretty well. As far as I and others who have used it can tell, it doesn't seem to add lag to DC games, but don't hold me to that.
    Fear The Fin

    Project Justice: Yurika/Chairperson/Kurow | AE2012: Rose | BlazBlue CS: Noel | Soulcalibur V: Viola
  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    are there any options for playing dreamcast on an HDTV without VGA ports...or in my case, with a VGA port that doesn't support the resolution from a dreamcast VGA box?

    That's really too bad if your HDTV doesn't accept the 640x480 resolution via VGA!

    You COULD try pairing the VGA box up with an Audio Authority 9A60 which would give you Component output. This would at least get rid of your upscaling lag.
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • amodfamodf Gargos porn Joined: Posts: 134
    Is there not some $5 HK product that does the same thing as the HDFury? $150 is a big upgrade for a $800 TV.
    ("TeamWhiteGuys" retekinf) I'm seeing if I want to spend $11 to play my old wizard
  • NeoChaosXNeoChaosX loves violin music Joined: Posts: 642
    Good job poonage. The old FAQ was way outdated and it's not like you would've been able to update it now.

    One thought, though - the HD Fury isn't really necessary if you own a 360, as the 360 already has an official VGA cable to output through. I imagine it'll be a good idea for PS3 owners, though.
    Fear The Fin

    Project Justice: Yurika/Chairperson/Kurow | AE2012: Rose | BlazBlue CS: Noel | Soulcalibur V: Viola
  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    Is there not some $5 HK product that does the same thing as the HDFury? $150 is a big upgrade for a $800 TV.

    Ninja Edit: Here's your $5 HK product ;)

    Wii and PS3 VGA Cable: http://www.mayflash.com/vgabox/vga004/vga004.htm

    Note that this cable does not strip HDCP protection like the HD Fury so you would lose the ability to watch Blu-Ray movies on a PS3 with this cable.
    NeoChaosX wrote:
    the HD Fury isn't really necessary if you own a 360, as the 360 already has an official VGA cable to output through. I imagine it'll be a good idea for PS3 owners, though.
    Excellent point, overlooked and will be added.
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    Nice Viewsonic! Ill track down a copy of Rock Band 2 and test out my 40" Sony Bravia LCD and post results.
  • Chasem0Chasem0 Joined: Posts: 43
    The Best Solution: Commercial-grade HDTV Displays

    What if there were an HDTV that had both lightning-fast scaling as well as no unnecessary and bloated postprocessing?

    Guess what: they're here. They're just not marketed towards you and me. They are marketed towards Emergency Centers, Network Operations Centers, hospitals, airports, and other businesses requiring accurate, up-to-the-millisecond digital signage under a 24x7 environment. To see more, Google "digital signage" or similar. The same type of monitors are used in HD arcade cabinets, which is why they don't lag.

    Funny, a few days ago I was just wondering "I wonder if there are big 1920x1080 LCDs that don't have TV tuners and the bells and whistles HDTVs have, just HDMI, VGA and DVI". I know computer monitors fit this description, but they aren't big enough to work as a TV you would watch while sitting on a couch, more of a watch while sitting on an office chair.
  • EndlessMikeEndlessMike Joined: Posts: 146
    Yeah I doubt SF4 is gonna lag considering, you know the game is pretty much made in HD with being played on HDTVs in mind. Not to mention Capcom heavily caters to the HDTV audience (Dead Rising for example had problems on SDTVs).
  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    Yeah I doubt SF4 is gonna lag considering, you know the game is pretty much made in HD with being played on HDTVs in mind. Not to mention Capcom heavily caters to the HDTV audience (Dead Rising for example had problems on SDTVs).

    Uhh, yeah, HDTV lag doesn't have anything to do with the actual game title.
    poonage wrote:
    Why do games lag on HDTVs?

    There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.

    A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
    B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • ShinMagusShinMagus Joined: Posts: 195
    this is the dumbest thread thus far (today)...VERY Little if ANY HDTV's lag anymore PLUS they have game mode. quit wasteing my precious internets.

    even if they do Lag its so little its not even human recognizable, cut this shit off.

    you aint gone ban a fuckin soul, if i made a thread this useless you'd be in my ass. HDTV lag is insignificant as a faction of a mili-second. stop propagandizing another useless issue.

    It would need a sticky maybe if it was a valid problem, but its not.

    Ive had HDTV's before they were even a staple in american homes and i can feel input lag anytime...as i know what it feels like from using bad converters on PC's. on HDTV's from 07 on, ALL ARE EQUIP'D with devices and modes to ensure that it will NOT happen.

    If you feel im just talking shit ....visit avsforum.com and see for yourself.

    I hope you realize a one-frame lag is already reason for whining, even if it's not quite human-detectable in practice... And without game mode activated HDTVs lag considerably, period. Even a Sharp Aquos needs Game Mode on (I've seen this myself last Sunday at a friend's house).
    Magus
    12000 B.C. - Dark Ages
    "The black wind begins to blow..."
    "Can you hear that? It's the sound of the Reaper."
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    ->EndlessMike I dont know about that. Maybe Sf4 for Xbox 360 using with VGA cable using the VGA port on an HDTV display would be lag free. But it looks as if Post Processing would cause lag no matter what for any thing else concerning 360 or PS3:

    B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).


    What is wrong with Postprocessing?

    The key issue with Postprocessing in consumer-grade displays is that it isn't optional. Many HDTVs have a "Game Mode" in which the main purpose is to disable both Scaling/Deinterlacing delay and Postprocessing delay. However, even with "Game Mode" enabled, most HDTVs still suffer from lag due to postprocessing that simply can't be disabled.
  • VPTVPT I give up... Joined: Posts: 760
    Excellent thread, poonage! And thanks especially for giving the tip about the guitar games to test lag. I'll have to rent one the next time I'm at Blockbuster.

    Even though you mentioned postprocessing, you should probably add some of the PS3 backward compatibility questions to the FAQ. So when people do a search for the page it becomes more noticeable as a bold question. Just a suggestion.
  • EndlessMikeEndlessMike Joined: Posts: 146
    So if I get the MS VGA Cord and hook it up to my TV I should have no lag?
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    Yes, if your HDTV doesnt have Post Processing on the VGA port.

    From Poonage:

    Turns out, many (but not all) HDTVs don't have postprocessing enabled on the VGA port only.
  • AbeFromanAbeFroman Joined: Posts: 197
    So if I get the MS VGA Cord and hook it up to my TV I should have no lag?

    Every TV is going to have lag. It's just the way it is....however, if that lag is going to affect gameplay, the answer..most of the time no. If you set up your TV correctly you won't have any issues.


    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

    It's best to go through the thread to get more updated info. (OP is from 2005 with updates in 2007)

    You don't need to spend 2300 for an ugly 46 inch set. 1500-1800 will buy a top notch 50-52 inch model that will give you minimum lag (ie: you can't notice the lag)
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    Noone said you had to buy an ugly 46".
  • EndlessMikeEndlessMike Joined: Posts: 146
    So is there any real reason why I should do this?
  • AbeFromanAbeFroman Joined: Posts: 197
    Noone said you had to buy an ugly 46". The point of this thread is to help have no lag so people dont have to deal with it. Once again Abe, you have come to a thread to talk trash?

    wtf are you bitching about now?
  • VPTVPT I give up... Joined: Posts: 760
    Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn't go against the policy of asking about one's own HDTV.

    I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY... I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one's in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.
  • AbeFromanAbeFroman Joined: Posts: 197
    Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn't go against the policy of asking about one's own HDTV.

    I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY... I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one's in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

    game mod simply speeds up the scaling/processing time. Generally by about 30-50% (depnding on the TV/Brand)
  • VPTVPT I give up... Joined: Posts: 760
    game mod simply speeds up the scaling/processing time. Generally by about 30-50% (depnding on the TV/Brand)
    I know what it does. I was mentioning that the addition of a Game Mode to this TV can make the marketed frame response time somewhat ambiguous.
  • NeoChaosXNeoChaosX loves violin music Joined: Posts: 642
    Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn't go against the policy of asking about one's own HDTV.

    I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY... I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one's in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

    To answer your underlined question, no. Response time is how long it takes for a pixel to change color, which is important if you're worried about image ghosting. It does not correspond to input lag/latency, which is what is covered in the Frame Conversion section.
    Fear The Fin

    Project Justice: Yurika/Chairperson/Kurow | AE2012: Rose | BlazBlue CS: Noel | Soulcalibur V: Viola
  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    Hey one more addition to my post above. I hope this doesn't go against the policy of asking about one's own HDTV.

    I did some research on the TV that I have (a SONY... I know) and found the following keywords: 60Hz, SONY Bravia Engine 2, and 8 ms response time. From that information, can I interpret the milliseconds mentioned here to be the same one's in the Frame Conversion section of the FAQ? Or do I still need to test it out? BTW, there is a Game Mode with this TV, but there was no specification on how it affects frame response.

    This is actually just a misunderstanding. That's the time it takes an LCD's pixels to change states, which actually has nothing to do with how much input lag it has. You can read a detailed explanation about Response Time here:


    http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html


    HDTV manufacturers do not advertise how much input lag their sets have.
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • VPTVPT I give up... Joined: Posts: 760
    Thanks for your responses, NeoChaosX and poonage! In addition to the suggestions I posted earlier, maybe you should add the response time misunderstanding to the FAQ as well, lol.
  • TSTS pbbbbbbt... Joined: Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭✭
    Also, as a side note, people need to not post things like "I was able to do X combo reliably in Y game, so the lag is unnoticeable".

    Combos are in your fingers. The lag of your TV does NOT affect your ability to do a combo you already have memorized. What it WILL screw over is your ability to do things like hit confirms or react to certain in-game stimuli like "oh snaps, that's an overhead!", because the display is running behind the actual game.

    It's very hard to "feel" the lag in a TV without being attuned to it if the lag isn't horrible, but it will affect your play.

    While this is generally true, I think there are some exceptions- I know for me, there are some combos I do from muscle memory, and some from visual/audio cues. In MvC2 I would probably have a better shot of doing Iron Man/War Machine's sj.cancel crouching MP infinte setup with lag than the actual infinite. And in some games CCs are the same way- juggling with standing normals into super jump attacks in CvS2, and some A3 stuff I find I do by vision. Though, you may be surprised how quickly you adjust, so it's really important to be able to test the same thing on a display with no lag.
  • VPTVPT I give up... Joined: Posts: 760
  • skongiskongi PsychoPower. Joined: Posts: 192
    is game mode supposed to make the picture look like crap?
    it sure does on my samsung Samsung LE 37 M 86.
  • BeaTs*BeaTs* ∞ Consciousness Joined: Posts: 6,518
    I'd say look for a VGA-to-component converter like the Audio Authority 9A60. I got it since my HDTV doesn't have a VGA port, and it works pretty well. As far as I and others who have used it can tell, it doesn't seem to add lag to DC games, but don't hold me to that.
    That's really too bad if your HDTV doesn't accept the 640x480 resolution via VGA!

    You COULD try pairing the VGA box up with an Audio Authority 9A60 which would give you Component output. This would at least get rid of your upscaling lag.
    ok...I'll look into that

    I actually got this 'GIGAWARE' VGA to Component converter from radioshack, about 100 bucks, and it didn't work...maybe because it was a cheap gigaware/radioshack brand (if you search for gigaware on radioshack, they literally make everything there...) for some reason, it also had me hook up to the VGA port on my TV anyway (makes no sense...)

    maybe there was still lag on the component end? even with game mode it lagged. here's the link, *ahem* it's a PC to TV converter... http://www.radioshack.com/pwr/product-reviews/Computers/Components-parts/Video-capture-cards/Gigaware/p/2756876-Gigaware-reg-PC-to-TV-Converter.html

    but maybe your recommendations will be better.
    Love and Light Arcana, Awakening comes in Flower Multilayers
    Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Arcana Heart 3 matches and combos: youtube.com/juanniG
  • scottindscottind Joined: Posts: 1,518
    Toshiba Regza 37" LCDTV 37AV50 60hz w/ Cinespeed
    720p lags 2 frames
    480p lags 2 frames
    480i lags 4 frames

    Emprex LCD 32" Model3202
    720p lags 1 frame
    480p lags 1 frame
    480i lags 4 frames
  • AbeFromanAbeFroman Joined: Posts: 197
    Hey I don't want to bombard the new thread with questions, but ONE more thing crossed my mind, lol. I've read everything in the original post but I still get the feeling that there's something I'm not getting. So I have two last questions:

    1) Why does Game Mode have to be turned on? In other words, why can't it just be incorporated and be left on all of the time? What's the advantage of turning it off?

    2) The original statement made regarding postprocessing ("Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).") leaves me scratching my head. From what I can gather, it seems that consoles were not intended to be played on retail HDTV's. If all easily available HDTV's have some degree of input lag, then why should anybody buy one to play games? Does this mean that the majority of people playing HDR or SFIV on their HDTV's are going to have input lag? What am I missing?


    avsforums.com dude. You'll get your answers there.


    edit: Or just ask Cynn, he definately knows his sh1t.
  • EndlessMikeEndlessMike Joined: Posts: 146
    Uhh, yeah, HDTV lag doesn't have anything to do with the actual game title.
    Capcom should know and they know how in SFs every milisecond counts, how do we know they haven't implemented some system which somehow makes SF4 lag free?
  • SpikuSpiku Joined: Posts: 173
    I have some questions. Does everything stated in this FAQ also apply to PC monitors at all? Specially PC monitors hooked to a console via HDMI.

    I have a 24.5" Full 1080p 2ms LCD monitor that I bought on x-mas which is currently hooked up to my 360 through VGA (non-elite model). This is the setup that I plan to use 90% of the time to play SF4. So according to your FAQ, I should be pretty safe with VGA correct?

    Also, I have a 50" Panasonic 720p/1080i Plasma HDTV which I mostly use for movies. In the past I have noticed quite a bit of lag when playing Rock Band 1, so noticeable that I had to go into the settings and try to calibrate my TV. So I know for sure my TV lags. My question is, without a VGA port nor gaming mode on my HDTV, is there another way to reduce the lag? Thanks.
  • wepeelwepeel Blanka is my only hope Joined: Posts: 1,180
    This thread is a godsend!!!
    Thank you poonage.

    I have a Sony WEGA TV. Despite the fact that it is CRT (tube), it has about 30-35ms of lag when calibrated with Rock Band 2's wireless guitar(video lag only, no audio lag). Just a heads up for other WEGA owners. I barely noticed it in fighting games but I definitely noticed it on music games, such as the drum fill mode on Rock Band 2. It's only very slightly off, but it is there.
    do you believe I would take such a thing with me, and give it to a police man

    -find the truth on page 318 of the Thinking Out Loud Thread V.2
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    I have a Toshiba 56HM195 (2005 model) and I don't own either of those silly games but from what I read online, there isn't any lag on the older Tosh DLPs.

    I wonder if anyone here has one.
  • DemonLosDemonLos Starbase Cadet Joined: Posts: 604
    Input lag times on Samsung 650 series LCD's

    This is taken from this thread over at the AVS forums.

    VGA mode / 1080p.

    Average lag: 0-8ms
    0.0-0.5 frame delay.
    Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)
    59.7 cycles per second (of 60)
    Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
    (approved for pro level gaming)

    VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.

    Average lag: 0-8ms
    0.0-0.5 frame delay.
    Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)
    59.7 cycles per second (of 60)
    Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
    (approved for pro level gaming)

    HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.

    Average lag: 6-15ms
    0.3-1 frame delay.
    Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)
    59.5 cycles per second (of 60)
    Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
    (approved for pro level gaming)

    HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.

    Average lag: 15-25ms
    1-2 Frame delay.
    Average FD: 1.5 Frame
    58.5 cycles per second (of 60)
    Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.
    (approved for pro level gaming)

    HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

    Average lag: 50-60ms
    3-4 frame delay
    Average FD: 3.5 Frame
    56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
    Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
    (NOT approved for pro level gaming)

    HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

    Average Lag: 50-60ms
    3-4 frame delay
    Average FD: 3.5 Frame
    56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
    Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
    (NOT approved for pro level gaming)

    Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

    Average Lag: 80-100ms
    5-6 frame delay
    Average FD: 5.5 Frame
    54.5 cycles per second (of 60)
    Detectable lag for most game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
    (NOT approved for pro level gaming)

    Thanks to gmanvbva, from AVS, for extensively testing this using the PC method.

    As you can see VGA is clearly the way to go with this set if you want near lagless gaming. But the picture quality and movie quality will suffer somewhat. HDMI2 labled PC has slightly more lag but if you rename the input to anything other than PC, you get all the processing back and a beautiful picture for movies and games that aren't as lag sensitive as fighters. I'm very happy with my 650!
    Attack me if you dare, I will Mexican uppercut you!
  • poonagepoonage not ryan harvey Joined: Posts: 1,403
    I'm very happy with my 650!

    Wow, those are some kickass specs for the 650! Thanks for sharing and congrats on your purchase. The VGA mode looks perfect (as expected) but it sounds like the HDMI2 PC Mode is a real godsend.
    The background is favored in this matchup.
  • TSTS pbbbbbbt... Joined: Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭✭
    An old post from the other HDTV lag thread:
    TS wrote:
    Just got a Toshiba (32)av502u.

    Some informal results:

    Saturn stuff plays pretty damned good, basically no lag (either that or there's so little that I adjusted pretty much immediately). The downside is that the video stutters, like the refresh rate decreases or the clock speed increases or whatever. At seemingly random intervals , the game will get choppy and you will see afterimages for about a second and a half. It will definitely fuck with anything you do by visual cues (ie. custom combos etc in some games) instead of muscle memory.

    This is with Game Mode on- with it off it looks better, but of course there's an input delay. While it's not catastrophic, it's enough that it gets old, pretty damned fast (especially when you have the Game Mode option available). However, more bad news. As I mentioned earlier, Saturn handles input lag better than PS2 just in the general sense. So I assume those results will be less promising.

    I'll do some more tests over the weekend, just thought I'd post something.
    Toshiba av502u I was mentioning, I got a chance to try out the PS2 on it.

    Looking pretty good. Lag noticable in normal mode (using component cables), but game mode tone it down pretty good. Using composite (yellow cable)+game mode there was either no lag, or very, very little. As a caution, I tested this using a PS2 pad, which I suck on. I was testing Alpha 3 from Alpha Anthology, which is a game I'm pretty familiar with, but still. Just for the sake of being comprehensive, I also tested out a VGA in (using the HD Box pro), and an S-video input. S-video maybe slightly better than component (RGB), but still not as good as composite. You do get that weird frameskipping thing like with the Saturn when you turn Game Mode on, I'm guessing you should expect to see that on this model of TV whenever you have an s-video+game mode situation. VGA wasn't bad, but not noticeably better than Component + game mode or s-video with it.

    This is on in the default 480i PS2 mode. On some games you can hold down the triangle and X buttons and it'll put you in progressive mode (480p). This didn't really improve much. Component in normal mode was slightly better, I can't say if there was any difference in Game Mode. 480p mode means composite won't run, so it's ultimately a minus, at least for this game.


    I also tried using an RF switch for the Saturn, but no dice- same amount of lag as S-video in normal mode, but when you use the RF, Game Mode isn't available as an option. I don't have any composite cables for the Saturn anymore, but I suspect they'd work OK. I did use a SCART cable and run it through a component converter, and other than weird color, it wasn't any different than s-video, at least that I remember.

    I know it's important to mention this as all of you plan on buying HDTVs just to play Saturn games.


    So, I don't know how to do any sophisticated tests to actually give numbers for lag in the various modes for various consoles. What I can say, is that if you're looking around for HDTVs which may be OK for gaming, give this model or a comparable one a playtest.

    edit: I should add that my PS2 video cable has a little TV/HDTV switch on it. I'm operating on the assumption that this doesn't make a huge difference, especially given that Composite seemed to generate the best results for A3 anyway.

    Since then I got a regular composite (red/white/yellow) a/v cables for my Saturn to test, seems like basically no lag in game mode, but still the random ghosting still exists, though not as bad as with the s-video cables IIRC. You win this round, PS2. :mad:

    I also tested a DC with a VGA cable, seemed to be playable, but I can't really say. Given the results I've had with PS2/Saturn, I wouldn't be surprised if the composite video were better.

    Generally though, results are sort of in line with the other Toshi results in this thread;
    Toshiba Regza 37" LCDTV 37AV50 60hz w/ Cinespeed
    720p lags 2 frames
    480p lags 2 frames
    480i lags 4 frames
    I have a Toshiba 56HM195 (2005 model) and I don't own either of those silly games but from what I read online, there isn't any lag on the older Tosh DLPs.

    I wonder if anyone here has one.

    So hopefully some of the higher-end Toshibas (mind is kind of a low-end model) gernerally also have good game modes. Again, I can't run any legit tests, but I would suggest you at least try out a Toshiba if you're shopping around.

    Critically, it is important for me to mention that I haven't tested any Xbox 360/PS3 games, so I can't speak as to lag for games being converted from any resolution above 480p. Given my results with PS2 games in progressive mode (480p), they might be far less promising.
    is game mode supposed to make the picture look like crap?
    it sure does on my samsung Samsung LE 37 M 86.
    Game mode on my TV lowers the resolution of what's being shown, yes.
  • Options
    Unknown Joined:
    Capcom should know and they know how in SFs every milisecond counts, how do we know they haven't implemented some system which somehow makes SF4 lag free?

    You should read the FAQ more or perhaps something more in depth. You seem to still be lacking an understanding in said subject.
    is game mode supposed to make the picture look like crap?
    it sure does on my samsung Samsung LE 37 M 86.
    Yeah it should, sadly. It turns off all the post processing effects so your TV can concentrate on running a fast image not a pretty one. That's the sacrifice you make for a shorter ms loss.
    Wow, those are some kickass specs for the 650! Thanks for sharing and congrats on your purchase. The VGA mode looks perfect (as expected) but it sounds like the HDMI2 PC Mode is a real godsend.

    For those in the market for something a little better looking the 550 and 450 have HDMI2/PC modes. While the screen itself isn't as nice looking as the 650 it's a great budget alternative.
«13456784
Sign In or Register to comment.