Switch-less USB selector for PS3+360 "Imp": Re-Design Underway, Input appreciated.

Toodles

EDIT: Troubleshooting guide is up: Switch-less USB selector for PS3+360 "Imp": Design Stage
EDIT: Welcome sheet included with each Imp: www.godlikecontrols.com/download/impwelcome.pdf
I like cute names for things, so I'm thinking we'll go for 'Imp' on this one :)

Most PS3+Xbox360 sticks now use a DPDT toggle switch to select which system is to be used. This setup works well, but requires a DPDT switch be purchased, and the case modified so the switch can be installed. I had mentioned previously that it would be possible to use an existing button to select with a small amount of electronics, but figured it'd be too much of a PITA. I said if I can get enough preorders to cover my costs, I would do it, and zombie cpt came back a couple of hours later and said he had it covered. So, SRK has spoken and this baby project is now underway.

I know that a 4066N analog switch chip can be used to select between two pairs of lines for USB just fine, since the UPCB has been doing that for years now. What I needed was a way to have two outputs from a gate, being high-low if an input was high when powered on, and being low-how if the input was low when powered on, and sticking at those output levels no matter what happens. I couldn't figure out how to do it with regular logic gates, so we're back to my old stand-by of a small microcontroller. Checking the prices on Digikey, the cheapest and smallest chip I can find is the 12F510; $1.25 each ordered singly, and $0.78 in quantities of 25 or more. Internal oscillator, pull up's on the inputs if needed, and 512 instruction space; all good stuff and should work awesome.

Here's a sketch of the current idea each square is 0.1" on a side:


The left has a spot for a USB jack to be mounted, so the outgoing USB cable won't have to be cut. The pads will be labelled and you can still solder the USB wires to them (for using the cable from a xbox360 controller, which really are nice cables, or the cable that comes with the madcatz TE or SE stick) but for those who dont want to cut and solder a USB cable, a jack would be nice.

So, here are the areas I'd really like feedback on:
-Mounting holes: It would be pretty silly to not have holes for screwing into the case for a solid mount. On wooden cases like Norris (drool) or SFAC sticks, there's not so much of a need to care where the holes are, because you don't have to line them up with anything. What I'd really like is suggestions on where it should be mounted inside a MadCatz TE or SE stick, so I can get the holes to match up with the screws already present. Give me an idea where it should go, and I'll make sure the holes match.

-Other functionality: The PIC is eight pins. Two are for power, leaving 6 available. I need two to control the 4066 switches, leaving 4. One input to control which system to use; down to 3. A common problem that keeps coming up is people wanting Start+Select=Guide. That's not a problem for the Cthulhu since that's built in, but it gets tricky when dealing with a 360 pad. My thought is this: If you wanted to, you could connect the Opt A and Opt B points to start and select. The Guide point would be connected to the Cthulhu 'Home' point and the Xbox360 Guide button. If the chip thinks you don't have a dedicated guide/home button, then it will press Guide/Home for you if it sees both select and start pressed. It would be optional; if you have a dedicated home button, the chip would know this and never trip Guide/Home. It just gives those without a dedicated Guide/Home button an alternative. Thoughts?
(I know explanations are confusing at times. So, in short:
If you have a dedicated button for Guide/Home, then forget I said anything.
If you don't have a dedicated button for Guide/Home, then this would make Start+Select = Guide/Home if you want.)

-Color: Colored PCB's are cool. How does black with white silkscreening sound? White with black? Green red blue, lotsa options.
-Open source: I'll release the PIC code and full Eagle files so anyone can make as many of these as they like. The design will be too stupid simple not to.

Alright folks, tell me how I can make this awesome.

parabellum

My only input is that a dedicated button for home/guide is on my list of things that would be a must for the 360....since that is how you access friends and messaging...being able to use that without grabbing a different controller is important to me.

However, any workaround such as pressing both START and SELECT together would be perfectly acceptable to me, it would prevent the "I need a second controller to send messages" issue.

And you are a freaking genius for figuring some of this stuff out.

A++

FrakkinToaster

This sounds all kinds of awesome. I recently bought an MC Cthulhu and was planning on using a DPDT switch, but this would be much more elegant. Do you estimate it being ready within a couple weeks?

Toodles

I'm expecting to order the boards on Monday, and have the batch zombie cpt sponsored to him no later than March 30th.

But to do that, I need feedback!

parabellum

Toodles, post: 2781078 wrote:

I'm expecting to order the boards on Monday, and have the batch zombie cpt sponsored to him no later than March 30th.

But to do that, I need feedback!

Help a noob understand: Does this mean that with the board you are designing, we could easily use a Ctulu board with the 360???

I really want to use that board for my next build (as opposed to hacking a pad) but as you know making it work for the 360 is not an option right now.

zombie cpt

bakageta suggested in my IC thread that he would like to have the default to work with 360 and hold down the guide/home button for ps3 mode. I like that idea too since my main system is 360. Not sure how difficult it is to be able to select which default system to start from but it would be a good feature I think.

I have no preference on pcb color, as long as everything is labelled clearly like the Cthulhu board.

Toodles

zombie cpt, post: 2781080 wrote:

bakageta suggested in my IC thread that he would like to have the default to work with 360 and hold down the guide/home button for ps3 mode. I like that idea too since my main system is 360. Not sure how difficult it is to be able to select which default system to start from but it would be a good feature I think.

No problem; I'll rename the labels for the ports, like "Default D+", "Default D-", "Secondary D+" and "Secondary D-".

If you want 360 to be default, put them to default and ps3 to secondary. ps3 default, visa versa.

The only reasons I've been leaning towards PS3 as default is because the MC Cthulhu will work better in this setup; If you wanted to play with a PSX cable, you have to have the imp in PS3 mode. It seemed better to have it be 'hold the button for 360, just plug in for anything else'. If the 360 is default, it'd be 'just plug in for 360, and hold the button for anything else.' But the board itself could be wired either way.

zombie cpt

Toodles, post: 2781081 wrote:

No problem; I'll rename the labels for the ports, like "Default D+", "Default D-", "Secondary D+" and "Secondary D-".

If you want 360 to be default, put them to default and ps3 to secondary. ps3 default, visa versa.

The only reasons I've been leaning towards PS3 as default is because the MC Cthulhu will work better in this setup; If you wanted to play with a PSX cable, you have to have the imp in PS3 mode. It seemed better to have it be 'hold the button for 360, just plug in for anything else'. If the 360 is default, it'd be 'just plug in for 360, and hold the button for anything else.' But the board itself could be wired either way.

Good deal! I think of the of people that showed interested wanted like a MC board for PSX/GC compatability so I will do those to default ps3.

Toodles

parabellum, post: 2781079 wrote:

Help a noob understand: Does this mean that with the board you are designing, we could easily use a Ctulu board with the 360???

I really want to use that board for my next build (as opposed to hacking a pad) but as you know making it work for the 360 is not an option right now.

I think you have an incorrect idea of what this does.

All the Imp board is made for is so you don't have to use a DPDT toggle switch when making a PS3+360 stick. Hacking a 360 pad or otherwise using the pcb from a 360 controller is still very much required. All the Imp does is route traffic, deciding if the PS3 board gets to talk on the USB cable, or if the 360 board gets to talk on the USB cable. A 360 board is still very much required.

Unknown

Subscribed!

Im sure glad someone has the time for these wonderful ideas.

parabellum

Toodles, post: 2781083 wrote:

I think you have an incorrect idea of what this does.

All the Imp board is made for is so you don't have to use a DPDT toggle switch when making a PS3+360 stick. Hacking a 360 pad or otherwise using the pcb from a 360 controller is still very much required. All the Imp does is route traffic, deciding if the PS3 board gets to talk on the USB cable, or if the 360 board gets to talk on the USB cable. A 360 board is still very much required.

Yeah, I was afraid of that, thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

brighenne

I have a norris case, but I still think start+select=guide is a good idea, I really like only having two other buttons on my upcb stick.

Also, black pcb w/white screening. I seriously love black pcbs.

edit-maybe you can use the opts as a tournament lock? Unless the cthulhu already has a feature like this I don't know about.

gamingnow.net

Hey Marcus, I like it, but why not another run on the cthulhu with these built on board? I could do some pre-orders from you if that were the case. (for my custom project, i'm assuming you've seen it in the trading outlet.)

Fallback

*HEAD EXPLODES* LOL

To answer the question on mounting. I have been using these:



Simply because I can avoid putting holes in the case ( i already have had 360 sticks become ps3 etc.) and the adhesive is typically strong enough to hold PCB's and barrier strips in place. I haven't had any give out on me yet. As long asyour board has holes on it to be mounted it should be fine. But that's just me.

Unknown

Dot you read my thoughts? I needed a way to run a ps3 & PC without an adaptor & you made the chtula. Then I was looking for a way to use 1 USB cable for 2 consoles & you made this. Major props for seeing what the problem is & finding a solution to it.

Kyle

Fallback, post: 2781088 wrote:

Those are sexy. Where do you buy them?

Fallback

Fry's has tons of them in different sizes and colors.

ECOsvaldo

OH HELL YEAH! Thanks Toodles and zombie cpt! You guys ROCK!

networkingyuppy

So toodles, so you're saying instead of using a dpdt switch manually, it will recognize the controller automatically with the imp board whenever you turn the xbox 360 or ps3. What I mean is, let's say if I were to turn on a ps3, my controller for the ps3 will be recognized and it will use the 360 usb cable that is piggybacked to the ps3 pcb without flipping any switches. No?

Toodles

networkingyuppy, post: 2781093 wrote:

So toodles, so you're saying instead of using a dpdt switch manually, it will recognize the controller automatically with the imp board whenever you turn the xbox 360 or ps3. What I mean is, let's say if I were to turn on a ps3, my controller for the ps3 will be recognized and it will use the 360 usb cable that is piggybacked to the ps3 pcb without flipping any switches. No?

Not quite. Imp will check to see if a button is held down when plugged in. If the button is not pressed, the default pcb will be used. If it is pressed, then secondary pcb will be used.

The nice thing is that the button checked will be one of the normal play buttons; there wont be a dedicated toggle switch or a dedicated button. It would probably easier to explain without being so general. Installed in mine, I'll wire the Guide button on my 360 TE stick to be the controlling button, and have PS3 be the default. So, if I plug the stick in normally, the Cthulhu will control the USB. If I hold down the Guide button when I plug it in, then the 360 pcb will control the USB.

It does the exact same thing a DPDT switch does, but without having to drill and mount an actual DPDT switch.

bakageta

Aha, great to hear that we'll be able to set up either system as the default, I only want to add ps3 support to my stick in case I end up anywhere that it's my only option, but I don't own one. I've always been a fan of white pcb's, but I think anything other than your traditional green would be fine.

networkingyuppy

Toodles, post: 2781094 wrote:

Not quite. Imp will check to see if a button is held down when plugged in. If the button is not pressed, the default pcb will be used. If it is pressed, then secondary pcb will be used.

The nice thing is that the button checked will be one of the normal play buttons; there wont be a dedicated toggle switch or a dedicated button. It would probably easier to explain without being so general. Installed in mine, I'll wire the Guide button on my 360 TE stick to be the controlling button, and have PS3 be the default. So, if I plug the stick in normally, the Cthulhu will control the USB. If I hold down the Guide button when I plug it in, then the 360 pcb will control the USB.

It does the exact same thing a DPDT switch does, but without having to drill and mount an actual DPDT switch.

YESH!!!! I LOVE YOU TOODLES! I don't have to buy a dpdt switch!
Let me on the deal whenever you have them in stock.
*Rep Added!*

ECOsvaldo

Add me to the list as well! I WANT AN IMP TOO! Thanks Toodles and zombie cpt!

Toodles

brighenne, post: 2781086 wrote:

edit-maybe you can use the opts as a tournament lock? Unless the cthulhu already has a feature like this I don't know about.

The Cthulhu doesn't have a tournament mode. However, installed in a TE or SE stick it will also benefit from the tournament lock. If you do the mod so tournament lock blocks Select and Start, those too will still have the benefit of the lock with a Cthulhu installed.
Doing a tournament mode type situation like the UPCB has isn't really feasible from a technical standpoint without expanding the imp way past it's purpose. It is a good idea, but can't be easily done without making the wiring and setup a ton harder.

gamingnow.net, post: 2781087 wrote:

Hey Marcus, I like it, but why not another run on the cthulhu with these built on board? I could do some pre-orders from you if that were the case. (for my custom project, i'm assuming you've seen it in the trading outlet.)

There are a couple of reasons why, none of them technical.
1. If I made a board like that specifically for dual pcb situations, then I'd really have to support dual pcb stuff with damn near everything. That's a whole lot of headache I don't need. Despite the fact I try to make things as easy as possible, dual pcb mods are advanced mods, and people (somewhat rightly) would feel I would be responsible if I made a board specifically for that purpose. As it is, the Cthulhu is for PS3, and it does it's job very well, and although it CAN be used in a dual pcb setup, it isn't meant for a dual pcb setup, and the responsibility of getting it working that way falls on the end user, not me. I'm busy as all hell has it is.
2. It'd dilute things. Folks are confused enough with just the DISABLE_HOME option on the Cthulhu, and adding a third board to the mix would just make things worse.
3. Money. The larger the order of boards and parts, the cheaper everything is. If I add another rev of the Cthulhu board, I'd either have to discontinue the existing line, or up the price to cover the costs of the exact same board that is being ordered in smaller quantities.

So, no. The Cthulhu remains unchanged with no plans to change anything. I prefer to think of them like Legos. The Imp and the Cthulhu do very separate, very distinct things, and can be plugged together easy.

Fallback, post: 2781088 wrote:

*HEAD EXPLODES* LOL

To answer the question on mounting. I have been using these:



Simply because I can avoid putting holes in the case ( i already have had 360 sticks become ps3 etc.) and the adhesive is typically strong enough to hold PCB's and barrier strips in place. I haven't had any give out on me yet. As long asyour board has holes on it to be mounted it should be fine. But that's just me.

There will definitely be mounting holes, so I have every faith that that solution will continue to work.

Now, where inside a madcatz stick should this go? I seriously have no idea, especially when the Cthulhu fits so damn well under the Guide/Turbo/LED board.

A couple of other notes.
-I've think I've got the idea of how I want this to work all fleshed out. There will be spots for Select and Start on the board, and a solder jumper like the USB Only jumper on the Cthulhu. If you want Select and Start to control the Guide button, no problem; solder the jumper. Otherwise, just ignore the Start and Select points. The Select+Start=Guide functionality can be done standalone; you can add this to a stick with just one common ground xbox360 pcb in it and get the Start+Select=Guide working and just ignore the USB stuff.
-I found an even smaller and cheaper PIC to do the job, the 12F508.
-Since we're talking uber simple stuff from the PIC, I can use the 32kHz speed. Total power draw; about 10uA. Thats 1/100th of a single milliAmp. A PUNY amount of power compared to the USB boards, about 1/1,000th of the power used by either one of the board. 1/2,000th of the current used by a normal LED.
-Pseudocode is written, so getting the code should be easy. Reading up on config bits will probably take longer. Here's the pseudo code I'll be working off of for those interested in the boring details
# need to determine if FalseG is connected to Guide. if !Guide goto Guide_low_no_AND :guide_high: #guide is high. Determine if we need to be using the AND gate functionality #since FalseG and Guide are connected if and only if we need the AND gate #stuff, drop FalseG low and see if Guide reads as low set FalseG low delay if !Guide, goto AND_gate_needed :guide_high_no_AND: turn on 4066 outputs for secondary mode sit and spin. :guide_low_no_AND: #easy. Guide button is pressed, so therefore we don't have to worry about the AND gate #shenanigans. Turn on the 4066 outputs and sit and spin Turn on 4066 outputs for Secondary mode. sit and spin :AND_gate_needed: Set FalseG back to high impedence delay if !Start and !Select goto AND_secondary :AND_primary set 4066n outputs for primary mode goto AND_loop :AND_secondary: set 4066n outputs for secondary mode. :AND_loop: if Start goto No_FalseGuide if Select goto No_FalseGuide set Guide as low output delay goto AND_loop :No_FalseGuide: set Guide as input delay goto AND_loop [/CODE] Need feedback on: 1. Where on the TE or SE should this screw down? I'd like to use existing screws and posts, and at least two of them. The Turbo/Guide/LED board is out because the Cthulhu fits there pretty nice. 2. Should I put out points for possible LED connections, showing which system was selected?[CODE]
# need to determine if FalseG is connected to Guide.
if !Guide goto Guide_low_no_AND
:guide_high:
#guide is high. Determine if we need to be using the AND gate functionality
#since FalseG and Guide are connected if and only if we need the AND gate
#stuff, drop FalseG low and see if Guide reads as low
set FalseG low
delay
if !Guide, goto AND_gate_needed
:guide_high_no_AND:
turn on 4066 outputs for secondary mode
sit and spin.

:guide_low_no_AND:
#easy. Guide button is pressed, so therefore we don't have to worry about the AND gate
#shenanigans. Turn on the 4066 outputs and sit and spin
Turn on 4066 outputs for Secondary mode.
sit and spin

:AND_gate_needed:
Set FalseG back to high impedence
delay
if !Start and !Select goto AND_secondary
:AND_primary
set 4066n outputs for primary mode
goto AND_loop

:AND_secondary:
set 4066n outputs for secondary mode.
:AND_loop:
if Start goto No_FalseGuide
if Select goto No_FalseGuide
set Guide as low output
delay
goto AND_loop

:No_FalseGuide:
set Guide as input
delay
goto AND_loop

[/CODE]


Need feedback on:
1. Where on the TE or SE should this screw down? I'd like to use existing screws and posts, and at least two of them. The Turbo/Guide/LED board is out because the Cthulhu fits there pretty nice.
2. Should I put out points for possible LED connections, showing which system was selected?

Tetsuosan

Since you've received your TE Stick would it be possible to do an instructable on installing a cthulu with the imp board on the 360 ver. of the stick? I really like how you do your mods since they're very clean and practical.

Taiki

what's the advantage of this versus a USB hub? I'm planning on doing the dual 360/ps3 mod on my old HRAP1, and trying to figure out different multiconsole strategies.

Unknown

No preferrence on color, but black would fit my color scheme for this new stick.

As for mounting, I don't own a TE stick or a norris stick, but so far it seems that the most common place I've seen pcb's is the bottom right of the control panel under the buttons.

I kinda like having the dedicated guide button, but that's just me.

Toodles

Tetsuosan, post: 2781099 wrote:

Since you've received your TE Stick would it be possible to do an instructable on installing a cthulu with the imp board on the 360 ver. of the stick? I really like how you do your mods since they're very clean and practical.

I haven't even made the thing yet, and as slow as the cthulhu-in-madcatz ones are going, I'm not comfortable promising anything. It'll be stupid simple though.

Taiki, post: 2781100 wrote:

what's the advantage of this versus a USB hub? I'm planning on doing the dual 360/ps3 mod on my old HRAP1, and trying to figure out different multiconsole strategies.

I still haven't seen a hub used after all of this time, so I don't really have an answer for that. The only thing I can say for sure is that using a DPDT switch or an Imp would be better for the MC Cthulhu; theres a good chance PSX support wont work if its plugged into a hub.

Mindz, post: 2781101 wrote:

I kinda like having the dedicated guide button, but that's just me.

A dedicated Guide/Home button is better all around, but I had pins to spare, so it seemed like a good use of the addition pins; a little added possibile functionality without affecting the core function.

gamingnow.net

has anyone done a ps3 > ps3/360 mod on the madcatz sticks yet? I just did one last night, im glad i only got one order on that job, it took forever!

Unknown

This looks super rad. Can I preorder one? ;) How much you think it will run for one anyway?

Color doesn't matter to me really, how often do you show the insides?
I prefer a dedicated guide/home button as well.

Weird question: how do you program these boards? I've been writing a lot of assembly level stuff for x86 so I'm kinda curious.

Bomberman

I've been planning to dual PCB mod a couple of sticks this month. I'm glad you've come up with this now so that I can use it. :D

Toodles

Here's the layout I'm currently thinking about.


The outgoing USB cable gets soldered to the very top, or a USB jack is put there so a cable can be plugged in. The 1's are the primary default sub wires, the 2's are the one selected if the Guide button is held down. There's a solder jumper on the bottom of the board if the Start+Select=Guide functionality is needed. The tab with the hole on the left is for mounting on the end of the distribution block in a MadCatz stick.

If anyone has feedback, now's the time to speak up.

zombie cpt

Looks good to me, can't wait!

Norris Arcade Sticks

SupraFist

Can't wait for this to come out! Keep up the good work and I want one asap! jk take your time.

Unknown

what kind of art would you be screen printing on there? i may be able to help with the art aspect if it is in my range.

contact me if i can help: hardkorie@hotmail.com

brighenne

I'd prefer another mounting hole in the other corner. I'm sure the board is small enough to be mounted as it is, but I'd feel better if there was some support on that corner too.

eightbitminiboss

brighenne, post: 2781112 wrote:

I'd prefer another mounting hole in the other corner. I'm sure the board is small enough to be mounted as it is, but I'd feel better if there was some support on that corner too.

Same here, the space is there, might as well use it. How does it interact with the Cthulu?

Toodles

brighenne, post: 2781112 wrote:

I'd prefer another mounting hole in the other corner. I'm sure the board is small enough to be mounted as it is, but I'd feel better if there was some support on that corner too.

You're absolutely right. How's this look?

brighenne

Paik4Life

Toodles always comes through with awesome ideas. If I still had my 360 (stolen two years ago), I would love to do this. I'll probably order one for the hell of it.

~Paik

Kronck

PCB color make no diff to me personally.

A motherboard jumper for the guide idea sounds great.

Unknown

I just got a PS3 HRAP3 and I wanted to add 360 support so I can get rid of my 360 EX2 stick. I would be very interested in fitting one of these selector switches into my HRAP3, and I have been considering the Cthulu board as well so it will work on older systems too, though that introduces the cable management problem. What's your ETA on delivery of final product IMP switch? You can put me down for one assuming it's inexpensive.

Off Topic: I am pretty sure USB can be easily cable converted to Xbox1 as it is just different pinouts, but what about to PS2? I don't want to heavily modify the HRAP3 case if I don't have to so I may sacrifice having cables that can't be easily converted/adapted from USB, which would probably leave me with PS3/360/PC only via USB. Thankfully my PS3 is software backward compatible.

Unknown

would adding an actual pin-style computer jumper (i.e. what hard drives have to select master/slave/etc...) for the start+select be doable? Or at the least easily moddible?

Toodles

CrayonOfDoom, post: 2781119 wrote:

would adding an actual pin-style computer jumper (i.e. what hard drives have to select master/slave/etc...) for the start+select be doable? Or at the least easily moddible?

? You mean instead of the solder jumper? It could be done, but I dont see the benefit of doing it that way. This way requires an iron and solder. Using a physical jumper would require an iron and solder and header pins and a jumper. If you can sell me on the benefits of going that way, sure, it could be done that way, but I dont currently see how it'd be beneficial.

bakageta

I could see where if people were buying it pre-assembled and had no soldering skills where it might come in handy, but as a kit, I can't see a use for a pin header, it'd only make the board thicker than it needs to be.

VOLTECH

Questions
1. what are the predicted dimensions?
2. will it use the same usb b female connector?
3. what can I do to help???

Super stoked on this one cant wait to get my hands on it!

archalien

toodles been try'un to reach u via AIM bout the IMP......no replies

infamouskid

thats awesome so when do pre-orders start? i want one.

gamingnow.net

Toodles, post: 2781120 wrote:

? You mean instead of the solder jumper? It could be done, but I dont see the benefit of doing it that way. This way requires an iron and solder. Using a physical jumper would require an iron and solder and header pins and a jumper. If you can sell me on the benefits of going that way, sure, it could be done that way, but I dont currently see how it'd be beneficial.

You could switch from having the jumper to not having one without any tools handy once it's installed.

bakageta

But why would you need to? Your stick isn't going to gain a guide button and no longer need it without digging out some tools, it seems like the only practical use for that would be if your guide button broke and you weren't able to repair it immediately.