Rebalancing ST Remix

blitzfublitzfu Cosmic PowerJoined: Posts: 3,072
Most likely the game will never be rebalanced, but if it does, this is what I'd like to see:

Game-wide changes:
-all DP input windows should be shortened to 12 frames, possibly 10 frames, 15 is too large, this will make it easier to do walk up, qcf moves without getting a DP
-original ST backgrounds for Classic mode
-O.Alternate colors available in Remix mode by holding Start



Ryu
-fix the Super combo glitch (cr Short x2, Super will fail 50% of the time even when executed perfectly)
-longer duration on the Fake Hadoken, Fake is now 22 frames, would be nice to see it increased to 32 frames, as it is now it allows him to shave 10 recovery frames off his sweep
-or just remove it, it helps only a little vs Dhalsim, Vega and Balrog but it's too good in his other matchups

Ken
-nothing

Honda
-removal of stored Oichio, or change command to HCF instead of HCB and allow storing on f, df and uf positions, or keep storeability in the db position but nerf the hell out of its range (maybe even less range than Fei's throws), but either way the way it is now has got to go
-punishable Torpedo on block (same recovery as Remix Blanka's H Roll or slightly better) so that fireball characters cannot punish him but non fireball characters can and those who can't can gain ground or punish in the corner
-slightly longer duration of invincibility for Jab Torpedo (or more frames of the fireball-killing property) so that it can more often be used on reaction to kill fireballs instead of on prediction alone
-O.Honda normals
-give him back his stored Super, if Oichio is storeable on f positions, Super takes priority
-longer invincibility duration on startup for the Super so that meaty fireballs don't hit him, the 1st few hitting frames should at least be invincible (or more frames of the fireball-killing property), it should at least be as easy as Bison or Balrog's Super to go through fireballs
-make the 2nd hit of his Super faster so that it can't be punished on block
-faster recovery so that his Super is always safe on block from attacks like Balrog's reversal Rush

Chun Li
-give her back her Classic ST SBK, new SBK is much worse, preferably O.Chun's SBK
-removal of down, up Air SBK command, keep it the same as Classic ST (back, forward charge) so that she can do her neutral j.Kick anti airs on reaction after having charged down
-remove the new Super juggle property, keep Super the same as Classic ST
-return the Upkicks juggle-ability after Super on all characters, only thing needed is a damage reduction to the Super which she got, so instead of doing 80% total in ST, will now do 60% total

Blanka
-remove the damage penalty on Horizontal Roll, it's too big of a nerf that he doesn't need
-longer range Rainbow Roll and/or RR that knocks down on hit
-slightly buff the hitbox of one of his crouching normals to be able to beat DJ's cr Strong and/or cr Jab, maybe buff the cr Fierce or sweep

Zangief
-all Banishing Fists should have the new recovery, not just the Jab
-add hitboxes to his Spinning Lariats so that he can still hit when his arm is not extended (eg facing sideways), this will help vs Honda's Torpedo but the hitbox shouldn't be too low so that opponents can still poke him

Guile
-remove the NE glitch on his Super

Dhalsim
-fix the Reversal Teleport glitch but he shouldn't be able to Teleport too far away, just enough to escape safejumps and tick 360s but still punishable by a player with good reaction
-Super command should be qcf x 2 just like the rest of the non-charge characters
-Flame command should be qcf Kick instead of qcb Punch, as it is now, accidental Flames come out when trying to reversal throw or anti air Punch from a db to a b position

Hawk
-more active frames on Typhoon
-fix the Super command glitch
-fix the reversal DP bug
-bouncing back, knockdown Dive from Classic ST on PPP and safe Dive from ST Remix on KKK or if this is not possible, then increase the damage and dizzy of the safe Dive

Fei
-RH Flying Kick has the same recovery as the ST version and can be comboed into standing Fierce but loses some startup invincibility and air to air priority
-or keep all Flying Kicks the same as classic versions, but allow Flame Kicks to destroy fireballs so that Fei can escape fireballs on wakeup or while walking forward

Dee Jay
-increase the speed of the hits of his Super Attack so it never whiffs a hit in between and is never counterable in between hits
-get rid of MGU's fireball-killing property, he doesn't need it and it looks stupid

Cammy
-longer invincibility duration for the Jab Spinning Knuckle to better get around fireballs like Kikkoken and Ryu's Super, or slightly increase the speed of all Knuckles so that it's easier to punish fireball recovery
-return her diagonal j.Strong's hitbox from ST
-return her safe-on-block Thrust Kick from ST

Balrog
-removal of the negative edge glitch so that TAP can be charged beyond level 2 with KK and still be able to Kick Rush with 3rd Kick, but will lose TAP charge same as ST
-remove the delay in between the hits of the Super so that it is never counterable in between hits

Vega
-nothing

Sagat
-Tiger Shot travelling speed feels more like N.Sagat than O.Sagat (I'm not talking about startup or recovery, I'm talking about the time it takes his fireball to cross the screen), if travelling speed is increased to be closer to O.Sagat (not as fast as O.Sagat tho), that might be better

Bison
-nothing

Akuma
-longer recovery when landing from Air Hadoken, about the same as Guile's Flash Kick recovery now
-normal attack hitboxes should be exactly like Ryu
-Flame Hadoken hitbox shouldn't be partially invincible in the front
-Air Hadoken hitbox should be smaller so that fireballs/characters can more easily go under or over it
-slightly less damage and dizzy on Tatsu and Shoryuken juggles
-longer recovery for Shoryukens since they're completely invincible, slightly longer recovery than Ryu's Shoryukens so that he can be punished by more things than Ryu (Ryu has 5 grounded recovery frames on the Jab Shoryuken as per YBH, Akuma should have 8)
-slightly slower startup on Super, this should prevent inescapable setups
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Comments

  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    Give Fei tripguard on Flying Kick.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    Boxer
    -removal of the negative edge glitch so that TAP can be charged beyond level 2 with KK and still be able to Kick Rush with 3rd Kick, but will lose TAP charge same as ST

    That and give him his semi-safe jab headbutt back. It is waaaay too punishable as it is now. I mean, even the ST one was safe-jab-able, but this one can be sweeped from hella far away too.
    Honda
    -removal of stored Oichio
    -punishable Torpedo (more recovery or smaller hitbox so that cr.Jabs can beat it just like Blanka's Roll)
    -give him back his stored Super

    Personally think he's fine as is. Sometimes I miss stored super but it seemed really obvious when you go to use it (Honda rarely walks forward). I would probably give his torpedo and sumo splashes the same speed it had in HF with the hit properties left the same.
    Blanka
    -invincible startup for the Vertical Roll

    That would turn Blanka into a super fast Honda. I don't think anyone would like that :sweat:
    Zangief
    -a bit more invincibility on Kick Lariat, right now it's about 1/3rd invincible, maybe up that to 1/2 invincible
    -slightly bigger hitbox on Punch Lariat

    Personally think his lariats are annoying enough as is.
    Chun Li
    -removal of down, up air SBK, keep it same as ST (back, forward charge) so that she can do her j.Kick anti airs on reaction while charging down

    Sounds sacrilegious but I would take her stored super out. She doesn't need that shit.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    hmmm, lets see..

    remove balrogs invincibility startup for buffalo headbutt, it has no business beating a flash kick
    decrease the piority of balrogs dashing punches
    akuma-- what can I say that hsnt already been said
    cammy/feilong -- remove their safe on block special moves
    ken - give back invinciblity startup for his Dp's

    These are just my preferences, but most of all akuma needs fixing badly
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  • Aqua SnakeAqua Snake Never Outskilled... Joined: Posts: 1,322
    Fei Long - Remove recovery frames on all CW's

    No other changes
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Personally think his lariats are annoying enough as is.
    Agreed.
    cammy/feilong -- remove their safe on block special moves
    ken - give back invinciblity startup for his Dp's
    No-one would ever pick Cammy or Fei if all their safe on block specials were removed. It is already not a brain dead task to measure the distance and choose the appropriate version of their specials, not to mention both anti-air special attacks having longer recovery in HDR.

    Ken already has invincible SRKs during startup, and the strong one is completely invincible when it has offensive hitboxes. Just that they are faster than Ryu's, so their invincibility ends quicker. With the exception of Ken's strong SRK.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    probably biased, but oh well...

    Sagat
    Something about his hitbox is odd. Fei can't do HP, MP, LP rekka string to him. Not sure if this was intended.

    Chun Li
    Want the old SBK back.

    Honda
    LP headbutt can't be anti-air, anti-fireball and safe-on-block at the same time.
    Ochio should have a whiff animation, just like gief and hawk.

    Claw
    Hitbox is wierd during roll. Fei's DP completely whiffs if claw is up close and personal.

    Cammy
    LK DP should be safe on block except when done at point blank range.

    Fei
    Fix LK DP hitbox so it actually hits Sim on his slide.
    RK chicken-wing should combo on opponent (standing or crouching).
    Super was supposed to be safe on block *all the time* but apparently that isn't the case.

    Hawk
    What blitzfu said.

    Akuma
    What has already been said.. in addition, make it harder to select. Moving up from honda is too easy. I propose Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, Square, X, start.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    The only character I'd feel comfortable talking about changes for is Chun:

    1. Revert her SBKs to exactly how they were in ST. As an added bonus, make them invulnerable to throws on startup, so she has a reasonable way to escape grappler ticks.

    2. DF+Hk (Neckbreaker) should be reverted to normal. This isn't as big a deal as some people think; it makes the move a lot harder to reverse, sure, but you can always try to reversal after you block it, which is what most good players I've faced try to do. The thing is, neckbreaker only crossed up in very specific situations, which most players don't set up. So, now the move is a lot easier to reverse, and as far as I know, the problem which makes it hard to block - the fact that it can hit low if you do it meaty enough - still exists. So, the move has the worst of both worlds; it's more dangerous to throw out in the first place, and it's not much easier to block.

    3. Her super getting nerfed damage is fine; however, the way it was accomplished is a little weird. There are three ways in which Chun's super had its damaged nerfed:

    - The third hit of the super (as opposed to the sixth final hit) initiates a knockdown/juggle state, causing only 5/6 hits of the super to connect.

    - Because a juggle state is initiated on the third hit, and only two more hits of the super are landed afterwards, Chun-Li can only juggle Upkicks for one hit afterwards.

    - The actual damage of each kick has been slightly lowered.

    The problem? There are some characters (Guile, Sim, Sagat, Fei), who will randomly take only 4/6 hits unless you do the super at almost max range. When this happens, you don't recover in time to hit them with Upkicks, either. Also, there are quite a few characters where it's just plain hard to juggle the Upkicks for one hit afterwards.

    My solution? Remove the super's juggle ability, and make it so that all six hits of the super connect on every character, instead of having all six hits connect on only - ironically - Chun-Li.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

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  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    hmmm, lets see..

    remove balrogs invincibility startup for buffalo headbutt, it has no business beating a flash kick

    Remember *why* he got the Buffalo Headbutt in the first place? It was so that he could actually compete with projectile throwers. He *needs* that invincibility startup. Guile doesn't...so...Flash Kick him from further away. :)
    decrease the piority of balrogs dashing punches
    cammy/feilong -- remove their safe on block special moves
    ken - give back invinciblity startup for his Dp's

    I disagree with all of these. Boxer is fine as is and...really...if you want a more balanced game, you should be trying to buff more characters, not nerf them. Cammy and Fei Long absolutely need the safe-on-block specials that they have in order to safely pressure their opponents. Even with them, they're both the worst characters in the game. They need *help*, not nerfs.

    As for my boy Ken, he already has a totally invulnerable strong DP. I equate his DP changes to what Guy's Rising Spin Kick went through from Alpha 1 to Alpha 2 and, personally...I don't mind it one bit. The risk/reward factor for Ken's DPs is very balanced, IMHO.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • KrimzonKrimzon Joined: Posts: 399
    hmmm, lets see..

    remove balrogs invincibility startup for buffalo headbutt, it has no business beating a flash kick
    decrease the piority of balrogs dashing punches

    cammy/feilong -- remove their safe on block special moves
    ken - give back invinciblity startup for his Dp's

    These are just my preferences, but most of all akuma needs fixing badly

    your preferences are mostly crazy

    esp. fei, he'd have no options or lee way for mounting offence

    blanka would become a rock, with invincible vertical, im not quite sure, but don't hops have some invincibility?
    CvS2
    A-Bison
    activate, HP throw, c.rh (2 hit combo)
    true story
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Most likely the game will never be rebalanced, but if it does, this is what I'd like to see:

    Chun Li
    -removal of down, up air SBK, keep it same as ST (back, forward charge) so that she can do her j.Kick anti airs on reaction while charging down

    For the old school HF Chun Li player in me...can we make the aerial SBK a motion move instead of a charge move, then? :qcb:+:k: perhaps? That way, you're able to do your instant jumping kicks and I'm still able to :d:+:mk: Head Stomp and then aerial SBK anyone silly enough to jump up after me.

    I know...it's not that practical, but at least she'd still have the move. :)
    Blanka
    -faster Rainbow Roll
    -invincible startup for the Vertical Roll

    Yes on the faster Rainbow Roll, but can we also get a Rainbow Roll that either starts a combo or knocks down? At the *very* least, that move should not leave you wide open when it hits.

    I would be open to the Vertical Roll having the same invinciblity as the only other zero frame move in the game, Ken's fierce DP. I'd say one....MAYBE JUST MAYBE two frames of invincibility, but nothing more. It already hits upon activation, so no need to make Blanka's defense any better than that.

    Honda
    -removal of stored Oichio
    -punishable Torpedo (more recovery or smaller hitbox so that cr.Jabs can beat it just like Blanka's Roll)
    -give him back his stored Super

    The first two suggestions I absolutely love. The third one...I could see that being useful against projectile throwers...and I guess he does need help there.
    Cammy
    -more invincibility for the Jab Knuckle
    -faster recovery on the Short Drill
    -Short Thrust Kick always safe on block

    These three need some rationale behind them. Personally, I'd go for a *faster* Spin Knuckle...as in less startup...because, as it is, you pretty much have to guess in order to punish any projectile attempt. Since the jab one hardly has any reach, that would be the one I'd have start up quickly. Strong and fierce would start up more slowly.

    I think the Cannon Drill and Thrust Kick are perfect the way they are in HDR as far as recovery time. If her moves were made any more safe, I'd think we'd start to see a lot of scrubby Cammys spamming those moves. I'd hate for that to happen. For me, the glaring deficiency in Cammy's game is the lack of a quick overhead. I remember the idea of being able to press kick early in the Hooligan Combo to get the "sliding kick" animation to come out early and hit as an overhead. I mean, don't get me wrong, being able to grab with it is great, but if it's going to end up flying over the head of the opponent, being able to control it that much more would up Cammy's game, in my humble and limited opinion.

    The other idea that was thrown around that I liked was allowing the Cannon Drill to go under projectiles near the end of it. That would be lovely against Guile. Doesn't she need help in that match?
    Fei
    -RH Flying Kick can be comboed into standing Fierce but loses all invincibility on startup
    -Short and Forward Flying Kick cannot be comboed into standing Fierce but gain slightly more invincibility on startup and lose more air to air priority
    -Short Flame Kick is always safe on block like ST

    Hawk
    -more active frames on Typhoon to fix the glitch in Remix
    -knockdown Dive from ST on KKK and safe Dive from Remix on PPP

    I absolutely positively LOVE these suggestions. Love 'em so much I had to comment on them.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    hawk
    safe dive on KKK, old good dive on PPP :)
    fixed typhoon
    dp needs a hitbox extending a little more below him because it really cant hit guiles or 99% of the casts low forwards, really have to be point blank.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Hmm, a dream post. blitzfu, your list looks pretty good overall. There are a few things that could really give it some kick though. Hell, I'm feeling creative, here goes.

    Give Dic a teleport

    Seriously, he's so offense-oriented that this would pretty much just stop him from getting completely raped in the corner, his Achilles Heel as-is. He's already got better aggressive tools to use against most attacks; a teleport (with around the same timing as Dhalsim's) would just allow him to escape jump-in/splash loops and corner traps without gaining a distinct advantage. It would be pretty easy to recycle his arms-crossed win pose into something far more formidable.

    Force Claw's Wall Dives to jump only off the wall behind him

    It's so fast and dangerous even only off of one slightly more predictable wall. With this change though, it makes Wall Dive claws and throws almost risky for a change. Honestly his flip kick's hitbox shouldn't hit as low as it does, but if there was only one change I could make to Claw, it would be to the Dive. His game is so tight without the need for such BS; Sirlin was wise to attempt to back it down a notch.

    UN-NERF CHUN-LI

    I mentioned something earlier about Sirlin being wise. Well every creative endeavor has its less than stellar moments, and this one fell FLAT on its face. Dude, you were seriously asleep at the wheel on this one. Some blend of:

    -More invincibility on super
    -Upkicks hit at end of super as before
    -Some kind of anti-air or escape when she's cornered besides bending over and taking it from the big men (like, say, her old SBK)
    -Make her unable to SBK in air just off the ground (this happens accidentally far too often)
    -Make her knee flip always cross up instead of never from point-blank

    I should elaborate on the last one a bit. It sounds a little wild (it is), but it's nothing terribly new; we're just not used to seeing it from a single move that's not a standard jump-in like Ken's mk. Having to always block it "backwards" from a close crouch isn't broken like her old guessing games flip. This also would give Chun-Li the added benefit of squeaking a few pixels closer with it over fireballs and such, which is actually the better property at higher levels of play.

    Other random points:

    -Give Cammy her few pixels back on jumping mp! The rationale behind this was so weak: the lowest tier nerf against the highest's cheese normal? Really? Really?

    -Zangief's fine the way he is, along with Ryu, Ken, Sagat, Guile, DeeJay, Balrog (he has enough tools to win already, still top tier), and Dhalsim (though the Super command motion changed to qcbx2 would follow with the motion of the move it's based upon much better).

    -Is Blanka's horizontal ball attack so dangerous as to warrant extra damage when countered? Honda's headbutt is harder to punish both before and after, with no damage adjustments. (That move, as listed earlier, could also be a bit more punishable, along with pretty much everything he has.)

    -Definitely feeling most of the Fei change ideas listed here, especially tripguarded, option-select flying kicks. Short gets full invincibility but relatively high recovery, forward is a 50/50 (riskier to get in through a fireball, but if you do, and your timing is really good, you get a combo that you've earned), and roundhouse is much like it was before with no invincibility but a real threat in the corner. And give him his old short flame kick back; if Ken can have it, so should Fei.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    If claw had to dive of his own wall he might aswell not have the walldive.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    2. DF+Hk (Neckbreaker) should be reverted to normal. This isn't as big a deal as some people think; it makes the move a lot harder to reverse, sure, but you can always try to reversal after you block it, which is what most good players I've faced try to do. The thing is, neckbreaker only crossed up in very specific situations, which most players don't set up. So, now the move is a lot easier to reverse, and as far as I know, the problem which makes it hard to block - the fact that it can hit low if you do it meaty enough - still exists. So, the move has the worst of both worlds; it's more dangerous to throw out in the first place, and it's not much easier to block.

    :shake:

    Not many chuns used it, but damn the chuns who did could base their entire match on neckbreaker ambiguous crossups. I forgot if it was jchensor or NKI who made a video about it, but it showed how nasty you can get with that move. Dishragger used the shit out of it on HF :looney:

    I thought that change was fine and warranted. I also LOL every time I see people trying to block it as a crossup in HDR quarter matches.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Hmm, a dream post. blitzfu, your list looks pretty good overall. There are a few things that could really give it some kick though. Hell, I'm feeling creative, here goes.

    Give Dic a teleport

    Seriously, he's so offense-oriented that this would pretty much just stop him from getting completely raped in the corner, his Achilles Heel as-is. He's already got better aggressive tools to use against most attacks; a teleport (with around the same timing as Dhalsim's) would just allow him to escape jump-in/splash loops and corner traps without gaining a distinct advantage. It would be pretty easy to recycle his arms-crossed win pose into something far more formidable.

    While this was an idea I had before this game came out, I think this would end up propelling Dictator's game into the stratosphere. He'd become a little too good, IMHO. He already has enough tools to stay away from the corner. Still, this is one idea I'd like to see in practice.
    Force Claw's Wall Dives to jump only off the wall behind him

    It's so fast and dangerous even only off of one slightly more predictable wall. With this change though, it makes Wall Dive claws and throws almost risky for a change. Honestly his flip kick's hitbox shouldn't hit as low as it does, but if there was only one change I could make to Claw, it would be to the Dive. His game is so tight without the need for such BS; Sirlin was wise to attempt to back it down a notch.

    This one I really don't like...especially because this would only benefit people that have a horizontally charged special move that punishes the Wall Dive. Honda would immediately benefit since he can wait and then Headbutt. He needs a way to make them lose their charge...and that's why he should be able to go off of either wall.

    I already gave my Chun Li opinions, so I'll leave that to the experts. I like yours, though, just so you know, but I do like the old and the new SBK, too. I just wish she was given more options to control it...like having the aerial :lk: SBK go horizontal, the aerial :mk: one go up a bit, and the aerial :hk: one could look like the current grounded :hk: one. Just a random idea.

    Other random points:

    -Give Cammy her few pixels back on jumping mp! The rationale behind this was so weak: the lowest tier nerf against the highest's cheese normal? Really? Really?

    Aw man...there's one I forgot! I totally agree with that one.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • JigglyNorrisJigglyNorris The Low Tier Hero Joined: Posts: 1,279
    I've talked to Sirlin already on the topic of Hawk having two Dives, his safe-no-knockdown, and unsafe-knockdown Dive. Sirlin claimed that it would require a team of programmers to get that in the game. I can't comment on this because I don't know shit about programming. What I can say though is that this is the only thing I would have added for Hawk. I can live without his DP not being able to reach a crouching Guile. If I had a knock down Dive, I would gladly shutup. Any other change Hawk gets could really turn Guile Vs. Hawk into an easy match-up for Hawk, which shouldn't happen. Its nice for Hawk to have tools that make the fight a little more bearable. Honda is gonna be hard no matter what. MAYBE the only other change I would have for Hawk is just a little bit more priority on his Rising Hawk. Its pretty stupid how a Hurricane Kick can beat if you ask me.

    I still believe he didn't test T.Hawk enough though, and the DP bug is MORE than enough proof of that.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    Slightly agree Jiggly. The only reason I would want both old + safe dive and added range on his DP is because of the fact hawk can get punished with the old dive on block. Guile can also spam st.jabs and beat it out, and jump straight up fp (maybe? they all look the same) to beat it as well. more priority OR range on rising hawk would be nice definitely. id really go for either one

    DP bug AND the fact that his 360 doesnt work right is more than enough proof that sirlin didnt test him enough


    dict definitely doesnt need a teleport. hello over powered.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    I've talked to Sirlin already on the topic of Hawk having two Dives, his safe-no-knockdown, and unsafe-knockdown Dive. Sirlin claimed that it would require a team of programmers to get that in the game. I can't comment on this because I don't know shit about programming. What I can say though is that this is the only thing I would have added for Hawk.\
    I'll call Sirlin and Backbone out on this one.

    ST Hawk is in the game's classic mode with the old dive just fine. HDR Hawk has the new dive with new commands also. They didn't have trouble putting those in the game at all. Combing them would be extremely simple. Hawk could have both dives if Backbone wasn't such a garbage company (at least with what they did for HDR).

    You're telling me that Backbone figured out how to port Hawk intact for classic mode, make a new dive with new commands, but couldn't figure out how to map one dive to one command and the other dive to another? Bullshit.

    This is the same company that couldn't figure out that choosing the start colors would crash the game and that on the PS3 version if your controller is in slot #2 is reads it as #1 and resets the controls not to mention a million other programming errors.
    DP bug AND the fact that his 360 doesnt work right is more than enough proof that sirlin didnt test him enough.
    DP bug is fine, it's one of those nuances of ST/HDR that makes it great.

    The 360 not working correctly and the 720 command being horrible are problems that need fixing immediately.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    zang--giving zang a more invincible kick lariet against the sumo headbutt would be the only change for zang i would want. right now anything zang has against that thing is 50-50 and shouldn't be. any other changes would make zang way too powerful.

    t-hawk--i use to whiff his 360 all of the time but only because i used zang's timing. i delay his 360 a bit more and get the command throw a lot more often now. ran into guys who used forward/strong/low jab in their combos and never missed their 360's so i don't think any changes there are necessary. one suggestion is to have him be able to cancel his hawk dive ala vega's wall dive cancel. guile and honda problems solved.

    akuma--only his short hurricane kick juggles and his air fireball does not have hit stun capabilities.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Great suggestions guys. I like what OJ said about Blanka's Rainbow Roll knocking down on hit. Maybe the invincible on startup Vertical Roll would be too much, but I wanted Blanka to have some answer to Honda's meaty Slaps on wakeup. The Back Hop has a little invincibility but not enough.

    Chun Li's Knee Drop in ST WAS ambiguous. Yes, it didn't cross up every character at any distance, but it was a crazy tactic to defend against, just like Claw's knockdown Dives in ST, ESPECIALLY for charge characters. I'd be fine with it always crossing up. Or as a compromise, if it remains ambiguous, then it shouldn't knockdown but have it "reset" the opponent as if they were hit out of the air. That way the opponent is not knocked down and Chun Li doesn't get punished for it. Best of both worlds IMO. Her Super is fine the way it is in Remix. I also like skankin garbage's idea of slightly more invincibility on startup for the SBK.

    Forgot to add that Hawk's Super glitch needs to be fixed same as Zangief's Super was fixed post-patch.

    Dictator doesn't need a Teleport. Devil's Reverse already is great for escaping meaty grounded normals and a bigger hitbox on st.Jab would help with anti airs. I was trying to be conservative with my suggestions. I don't want to break the game lol. = )

    Also forgot to add for Honda a whiff animation on Oichio so that he can't option select using negative edge for his tick throws. To balance the nerfs to Honda give him back his O.Honda normals, make the 2nd hit of his Super faster so that it can't be punished on block and also more invincibility on startup for the Super. As it is now, if Honda does his Super at the last second before a fireball hits him, the Super will be hit by the fireball. That sucks, and this is coming from someone without a lot of love for the fat man. = )

    Zangief's Lariats maybe annoying, but he is definitely not top tier. He definitely needs some more buffs to compete.

    Akuma's Short Tatsu does not juggle, it's the only one that doesn't juggle.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Actually, from what NKI told me, they tried out the idea of not having the neckbreaker knock down during testing. They left it out because you could do a meaty combo, something like DF+Hk \/ S.Lp -> S.Lp, C.Lp XX Super, Upkicks for 90% damage.
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Actually, from what NKI told me, they tried out the idea of not having the neckbreaker knock down during testing. They left it out because you could do a meaty combo, something like DF+Hk \/ S.Lp -> S.Lp, C.Lp XX Super, Upkicks for 90% damage.

    That's true, I also remember NKI mentioning that in the Chun Li thread. But instead of having the opponent remain on the ground for Chun Li to follow up with a combo, why not have the opponent "reset" as if they were hit out of the air? Then Chun Li would not be able to follow up with a guaranteed combo and the opponent would remain on their feet so that Chun couldn't get another ambiguous Knee Drop. Fixes both problems and allows Chun players to keep their Knee Drop.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    ^^

    I personally love this idea...plus Chun would still be able to play mind games with the opponent as they're landing. The move hits and you're rewarded with a mix-up. Sounds fair to me.

    I know I have a habit of hoping against hope, but hey, it's worked so far. It'd really be nice if Capcom got a hold of these changes, play-tested them, and then implemented them. Stranger things have happened.
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  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,631
    These what if threads never go anywhere but whatever I'm fine with all remix changes EXCEPT nerfing fei's combos and keeping stored oichio...everything else is great.
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Also, would it be too much to ask for all charge characters to be able to end their horizontal charge moves in df to retain their down charge (db, df, ub)? Boxer can do it (Low Rush into Buffalo), so why can't others? And all charge characters can already end their vertical charge moves in ub to retain their back charge. I think it would make all charge characters more fun and easier to use. I don't think this would upset the balance of the game at all.

    Some setups would be:

    Chun Li - Kikkoken/SBK into Upkicks
    Guile - Sonic Boom into Somersault/Super
    Blanka - H Roll/R Roll into V Roll
    Honda - Torpedo into Splash
    Dictator - Scissors/Crusher into DR/Stomp
    Claw - Roll/Flip into Dive/Super
    Dee Jay - Max Out/Dread Kicks into Upkicks/MGU

    Although, MO, MGU, MO might make DJ a beast in the fireball war so I recommend removing the fireball-destroying properties of the MGU. But other than that, I don't think any of the above setups would destroy the balance of the game.

    None of them are even close to being a combo, except maybe for Jab Sonic Boom into Roundhouse Somersault/Super due to Guile's incredibly fast recovery after the Boom. But personally, I think Guile would benefit from a minor buff like that. Overall tho, it would just make charge characters more versatile and less defensive, which is a good thing IMO.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Also, would it be too much to ask for all charge characters to be able to end their horizontal charge moves in df to retain their down charge (db, df, ub)? Boxer can do it (Low Rush into Buffalo), so why can't others? And all charge characters can already end their vertical charge moves in ub to retain their back charge. I think it would make all charge characters more fun and easier to use. I don't think this would upset the balance of the game at all.

    Some setups would be:

    Chun Li - Kikkoken/SBK into Upkicks
    Guile - Sonic Boom into Somersault/Super
    Blanka - H Roll/R Roll into V Roll
    Honda - Torpedo into Splash
    Dictator - Scissors/Crusher into DR/Stomp
    Claw - Roll/Flip into Dive/Super
    Dee Jay - Max Out/Dread Kicks into Upkicks/MGU

    Although, MO, MGU, MO might make DJ a beast in the fireball war so I recommend removing the fireball-destroying properties of the MGU. But other than that, I don't think any of the above setups would destroy the balance of the game.

    None of them are even close to being a combo, except maybe for Jab Sonic Boom into Roundhouse Somersault/Super due to Guile's incredibly fast recovery after the Boom. But personally, I think Guile would benefit from a minor buff like that. Overall tho, it would just make charge characters more versatile and less defensive, which is a good thing IMO.

    i would only b against that 4 guile, it could make him nearly invincible. any character without a fb wouldnt b able to even try to jump after his boom.
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Yeah, that would make everyone with a charge projectile unstoppable turtles unless their recovery time was increased, which adds a whole new list of problems...
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Game change: all supers do less damage except already-nerfed supers


    Ryu: fine
    --none


    Ken: fine
    --none


    Honda: make him less of a defensive tank, give him better footsie and pressure normals
    --ochio throw is no longer storable
    --jab headbutt loses invincibility but keeps a very strong hitting hitbox
    --jab headbutt moves a bit more slowly
    --slaps hitboxes are more vulnerable
    --when slaps are done close, they push the opponent away more on block/hit (ie out of throw range)
    --O.Honda normals: standing fierce is always standing fierce chop, toward+short/forward are the faster/shorter range version of the toward+roundhouse walking trip, crouching fierce is the cancelable sweep


    Chun Li: mostly fine
    --instant aerial spinning bird kick thing is out


    Blanka: mostly fine
    --instead of making horizontal ball safer by having it recover faster while ending closer, it's made safer by having it bounce farther away (so that opponents can walk in a little bit after blocking it)


    Zangief: give him a real chance to get through walls with a better air normal and better footsies
    --jumping down+short knees makes Gief's hitbox smaller
    --jumping down+forward knees has a stronger hitting hitbox at the knee
    --the range of the hitting hitboxes on standing short, standing forward, crouching roundhouse, and spd are all increased by the same number of a few pixels so Gief becomes dangerous from a tiny bit farther away
    --crouching jab has a longer range on its hitting hitboxes so that rapid fire jabs beat Honda's headbutt and slaps and Blanka balls at a higher rate
    --spd's range is extended by the same pixels range as standing short and crouching roundhouse
    --kick lariat loses low invincibility
    --punch lariat no longer hits at Gief's feet
    --both lariats have more hitting frames in their rotations so that Gief can actually use them to beat things
    --both lariats have slight in-bending holes in their hitboxes at the exact height of Dictator's standing roundhouse


    Guile: mostly fine
    --roundhouse flash kick moves farther horizontally than in ST but not quite as far as it does in HDR, Guile does not continue moving forward after his active hitting frames are over


    Dhalsim: just an input change
    --super goes back to ST command


    Hawk: needs some move fixes and another dive
    --gets 7 active spd frames (instead of 1 now, but not as many as Gief's 10)
    --super motion is debugged
    --in the air, ppp is ST Hawk dive and kkk is HDR Hawk dive


    Cammy: mostly fine
    --gets ST jumping strong back (weirdest nerf in HDR for sure)


    Fei Long: mostly fine
    --chicken wings recover like ST but are otherwise just like their HDR versions


    DeeJay: fine
    --none


    Boxer: just an input change
    --return tap/negative edge rush functionality to ST style


    Claw: fine
    --none


    Sagat: fine
    --none


    Dictator: fine
    --none


    Akuma: definitely needs some nerfs
    --has recovery frames when landing from air fireball
    --air fireball's hitbox is smaller (ie it's easier to walk under and jump over)
    --hitboxes on standing roundhouse and forward are nerfed
    --ground fireball hitboxes do not move backward
    --dragon punches have Ryu's startups (ie they can be safe jumped on)
    --jab and fierce dragon punches have Ryu-like hitboxes, strong is still invincible
    --raging demon can always be jumped out of on reaction but still catches people who are landing
    --raging demon is invincible for a few frames and then gets an actual hitbox after startup
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    i would only b against that 4 guile, it could make him nearly invincible. any character without a fb wouldnt b able to even try to jump after his boom.
    Yeah, that would make everyone with a charge projectile unstoppable turtles unless their recovery time was increased, which adds a whole new list of problems...

    Maybe limit that to only non fireball charge characters then. Dictator, Claw, Honda, Blanka and Boxer.

    I like all of the changes you listed UltraDavid. A lot of the things in your post are what I wanted to say but didn't how to say. The only things I disagree with are:

    -nerfing Super damage (some characters can only do damage in specific situations with a Super eg. Honda, Cammy)

    -removing Fei's ability to evade fireballs with Flying Kick (I don't know if you actually said this, but he needs some way to get around fireballs and Sirlin was right to give him this change)

    -giving Akuma's Super a hitbox (the only thing he needs is slower startup to get rid of inescapable Demon setups, but it should remain completely invincible, maybe give him more recovery at the end of it so it can be punished)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    "Force Claw's Wall Dives to jump only off the wall behind him

    It's so fast and dangerous even only off of one slightly more predictable wall. With this change though, it makes Wall Dive claws and throws almost risky for a change. Honestly his flip kick's hitbox shouldn't hit as low as it does, but if there was only one change I could make to Claw, it would be to the Dive. His game is so tight without the need for such BS; Sirlin was wise to attempt to back it down a not."


    I disagree. Claw's power is nerfed greatly, and these so called BS moves are what gives him any sort of fair chance. Plus, he'd be too predictable.
  • EVIL5150EVIL5150 Joined: Posts: 167
    Ken - Increase DP landing recovery time. Spamable jab DP is a silly gimmick. I don't think Ken needs the safety of a short recovery window. It's a dragon punch, it's supposed to be high risk/high reward. As it stands too large a percentage of the matches I fond online are scrubs spamming DPs and it saddens me how often they get away with it.
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  • VanceVance Dial down the center Joined: Posts: 140
    My changes to make ST Remix even more balanced:

    a) Improve netcode so much that it makes GGPO look like molasses (the real reason behind complaints about spammable attacks/ticks/meaties).
    b) Ask Damdai and the other top Akuma players in the world what nerfs/buffs need to be done to R.Akuma to make him tournament-legal then implement said changes.
    c) Remove stored ochio.
    d) Fix T. Hawk 720 input glitch the same way they fixed Zangief's 720 input glitch.

    That is all.
    Ultra Street Fighter 2 player
    Used to play Street Fighter V before Season 2
    Played a lot of HD Remix
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Just remove Akumna kthx.
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,631
    Also, would it be too much to ask for all charge characters to be able to end their horizontal charge moves in df to retain their down charge (db, df, ub)? Boxer can do it (Low Rush into Buffalo), so why can't others? And all charge characters can already end their vertical charge moves in ub to retain their back charge.

    DJ can do it too that's why he made mgu cancel fb's so you can go from mgu to MAXOUT instantly making his fb game slightly better.
    Ken - Increase DP landing recovery time. Spamable jab DP is a silly gimmick. I don't think Ken needs the safety of a short recovery window. It's a dragon punch, it's supposed to be high risk/high reward. As it stands too large a percentage of the matches I fond online are scrubs spamming DPs and it saddens me how often they get away with it.

    Dumb posts like these is why I don't like threads like these lol. Jab dp has 3 frames of recovery but the lag covers it up and makes it damn near instant PLAY OFFLINE you'll see it's very punishable. Who said dp's are supposed to be "high risk high reward" last time I checked all specials had 3 versions...to um..ya know differentiate the risk:reward ratio.

    STHD isn't perfect but it's much better then classic ST:nunchuck:
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    STHD isn't perfect but it's much better then classic ST:nunchuck:

    This is truth. As much as we type these lists and such out, HD Remix is definitely in contention for best fighter ever, at least in my book. Beyond even the rebalancing, the things like ease of control setting and solid netcode make this title really shine.

    We're already in the spirit of improving here, so how about touching up some things besides just the gameplay? Two immediate options that SFIV has that would make HDR that much more excellent:

    -The ability to filter online matchmaking by skill level or PING PRIORITY
    -Replays!

    Either in a patch, or as optional downloadable content, these would kick so much ass.



    As far as rebalancing...anything that's a bug or that could be undone fairly easily should be addressed first. Evo should really help with creative input for several newer fighting games, and patching "between seasons" would also be a good time to keep the collective buzz high over time. I just hope that Capcom feels the same way.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    ^^

    I think that's a great idea and it merits it's *own* thread. That way, those ideas don't get lost in the midst of this thread. You have to admit that rebalancing the characters is going to require a whole lot more discussion than improving on the features for the game.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Is it me or does ken's crazy lk look like it should work like ryu's ovrhead? At the very least they should reduce its startup alittle.
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  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    Is it me or does ken's crazy lk look like it should work like ryu's ovrhead? At the very least they should reduce its startup alittle.

    Why in god's name would ken need a faster overhead ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Why in god's name would ken need a faster overhead ?

    u misunderstand his standard crazy lk looks like it should work like that but it doesnt ovrhead. On that same note it cant even seem to combo reliably, i believe it should either ovrhead or just b faster than it currently is so it can combo. It feels completely useless. Im not talking about the actual ovrhead version just standard version. Not to b snide but should vega really have an AA on top of those pokes he has?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • Syxx573Syxx573 Jo Mama Joined: Posts: 8,963
    Cammy doesn't need a safe dp

    i would trade up for a few more frames of invincibility though.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    u misunderstand his standard crazy lk looks like it should work like that but it doesnt ovrhead. On that same note it cant even seem to combo reliably, i believe it should either ovrhead or just b faster than it currently is so it can combo. It feels completely useless. Im not talking about the actual ovrhead version just standard version. Not to b snide but should vega really have an AA on top of those pokes he has?

    Is that a joke ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,217
    I may be in the minority here...

    M. Bison (Dic)
    - Give him recovery on short scissor kicks. Every time a Dic scissor kicks me (no homo), he can combo it further without stopping. It becomes a cheese fest, and Dic already has amazing dizzy potential
    - Bison can also spam the standing short (knee press) infinitely, and the only counter I found was to throw somehow.

    Guile
    - slightly longer recovery on Booms

    Cammy
    - faster spin knuckle, its slow start means you must predict a fireball to use it properly
    - short front kick safe on block

    Zangief
    - slightly lower SPD priority

    Chun-Li
    - slightly lower jumping short priority
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Joined: Posts: 0
    Fei: Revert CW's back to turbo abilities along with his flame kick while maintainING the juggle potential of remix. Jumping RH cross-up from SSF2 returns along with the ability to cancel a rekka from any normal like SSF2.
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  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    The fact that this thread even exists says a lot about HD Remix. You shouldn't have to rebalance the "rebalanced" version of ST. :confused:
    STHD isn't perfect but it's much better then classic ST:nunchuck:
    EL OH EL EXCLAMATION POINT
    It was a fun ten years.

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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    These type threads need to die.

    They always come up and never go anywhere. Somewhere along they way there is going to some lame agruement that is going to last 7 pages between somebody who thinks he knows more than he really does, and another person who actually knows even less but thinks he knows the most.

    Good, bad, right, or worng, the game is what it is, it not going to change.
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  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    I may be in the minority here...

    M. Bison (Dic)
    - Give him recovery on short scissor kicks. Every time a Dic scissor kicks me (no homo), he can combo it further without stopping. It becomes a cheese fest, and Dic already has amazing dizzy potential
    - Bison can also spam the standing short (knee press) infinitely, and the only counter I found was to throw somehow.

    On your first point, ask yourself...if Dictator didn't have that move, how well would he be able to safely do block damage? It's pretty much the only safe and quick way he has to do that. Since he's not broken already, I think it's fine. Since you let him get that close, he gets a block damage mix-up. A reversal special move will stuff any follow-up poke and a reversal throw will counter any throw attempt.

    On your second point, I can see where you're coming from, given that he gets an amazing 9 frames of advantage from making contact....oh wait...you meant FAR standing short! Far standing short, while it is an excellent poke, isn't any faster than most jabs out there. He gets 5 frames of advantage from it, which is actually a little better than average, but he can't spam it infinitely. Eventually, you'll either be out of range or he'll try to walk up and he'll be open to a reversal throw or special move.
    Guile
    - slightly longer recovery on Booms

    Guile is...what...mid to high tier right now? He's perfect as is.
    Cammy
    - faster spin knuckle, its slow start means you must predict a fireball to use it properly
    - short front kick safe on block

    I agree with the first suggestion, but highly disagree with the second one. There's no reason for it when she has a safe Cannon Drill. Her problem isn't keeping people off of her. It's being able to crack turtle shells. That's part of why she's in the bottom tier.
    Zangief
    - slightly lower SPD priority

    Do you mean throw range or that it shouldn't grab you out of certain things if your feet are on the floor?

    If it's the former, consider Sirlin's SSF2T Tutorial where he tells you that the range for the SPD is shorter than his crouching roundhouse range. Since it hasn't changed, the only way you're getting grabbed by it is if he makes you afraid of the sweep. He's out-thinking you and he's being rewarded correctly for it.

    If it's the latter, remember that any move that either puts you in the air or has invincibility frames cannot be thrown. If you see a tick attempt coming, use one of those moves or...if he's close enough, throw him first with a reversal throw.

    And, again, anybody that's near the bottom should *not* have anything nerfed. The SPD is fine as is.
    Chun-Li
    - slightly lower jumping short priority

    Jumping short doesn't cause a problem unless you don't properly anti-air it.
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  • MiloDCMiloDC You betcha! Joined: Posts: 473
    STHD isn't perfect but it's much better then classic ST
    EL OH EL EXCLAMATION POINT

    Apparently, NKI prefers classic ST.

    I definitely don't.

    Is there a poll somewhere? I wonder what the ratio of preference is, around here.
    "MiloDC is quite cute. I'm gay." -- Shari
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    fresh - a normal reversal throw doesnt beat ticks. as far as i know thats never been the case
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    fresh - a normal reversal throw doesnt beat ticks. as far as i know thats never been the case
    Heh what, it 100% does. If you're in range for your throw, you'll win on a throw after an opponent's tick every time, even if your opponent is doing a command grab. Reversal throws always beat non-reversal throws.
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  • Syxx573Syxx573 Jo Mama Joined: Posts: 8,963
    Does the person who has the longest throw range win if they do a tick outside of their opponent's throw range? Or are normals always shorter in range than everyone's throw range?
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