Rebalancing ST Remix

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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Does the person who has the longest throw range win if they do a tick outside of their opponent's throw range? Or are normals always shorter in range than everyone's throw range?
    In a throw battle between 2 characters with different throw ranges where they're outside one character's throw range but still inside the other's, the character with the longer throw range will always win.

    You mean normal attacks? Some normals have shorter range than their character's throws, some have more.
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  • Syxx573Syxx573 Jo Mama Joined: Posts: 8,963
    Also, what about after meaty attacks? Doesn't that give the person an advantage on block in order to tick throw successfully? Just wondering about these things because you said that that reversal throws always beat non-reversal throws and I think there may be exceptions. Sorry if I seem like I'm trying to argue I just wonder about stuff like this and you guys are the real experts so I figured this would be a good time to ask.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    The fact that this thread even exists says a lot about HD Remix. You shouldn't have to rebalance the "rebalanced" version of ST.

    Classic ST is the 5th rebalanced version of WW. SF2 has been constantly refined ever since the original WW. ST Remix is great as is, but I just wanted to make a wish list of what I thought would help balance the game even further, ESPECIALLY the bottom tier, Akuma and Honda.
    Also, what about after meaty attacks? Doesn't that give the person an advantage on block in order to tick throw successfully? Just wondering about these things because you said that that reversal throws always beat non-reversal throws and I think there may be exceptions. Sorry if I seem like I'm trying to argue I just wonder about stuff like this and you guys are the real experts so I figured this would be a good time to ask.

    I'm definitely not an expert, but IMO reversal throws do not always beat non-reversal throws. If your opponent is able to throw you, then you are also able to throw your opponent. Except of course if you were in recovery frames (eg whiffed Shoryuken, jumping/landing frames, etc), in which case your opponent gets a free throw. And if you were knocked down, you cannot be thrown for several frames after waking up.

    For example: if Chun Li does meaty st.Strong on a knocked down Fei Long, the st.Strong will put Fei in hitstun or blockstun (if he didn't reversal attack or reversal throw). Fei cannot be thrown during hitstun or blockstun, so Chun Li has to wait after doing the st.Strong to throw him. When Fei is out of hit/blockstun he can also throw Chun Li. If both players throw at the same time, the game will randomly give one character the throw, about a 50-50% chance.

    So even if Fei did a reversal throw after the st.Strong, he could still lose the throw battle to Chun Li, especially since she has more throw range than him. I don't know if command throws have priority over normal throws, but if I had to guess, I would say it's also a 50-50% chance that the throw could go to either character. I believe this is how it works, and anybody can correct me if I'm wrong.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    shit well, i had no idea bout that. either way thats likely to never happen since ticks like that rarely happen.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Is that a joke ?

    Which part? His standard crazy lk is slow as fuck. The vega comment is me raging because I asked n the ken thread and got no help for that matchup, I hate vega because I cannot figure out how to fight him properly.
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  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Does the person who has the longest throw range win if they do a tick outside of their opponent's throw range? Or are normals always shorter in range than everyone's throw range?

    The way I've always understood it is like this. Basically, on each frame the game:

    1. Reads input
    2. Figures out if characters changed state (Started a move, did a throw, etc)
    3. Figures out who is getting hit, blocking, throwing.

    Also, I believe that throws > attacks UNLESS the attack makes you invincible or unthrowable. An unthrowable state occurs when the move makes you leave the ground (ex. Blanka's up-ball).

    So, for example, on wake-up:

    Meaty fierce punch vs reversal frame throw: Throw wins.
    Meaty SRK vs reversal frame throw: SRK wins.

    Since you can't be thrown for 13 frames after waking up, an opponent that wants to throw you has to use ticks(normal attacks) to keep you busy for that time. The net result is that you can always reversal attack OR reversal throw the first tick.

    After you block the tick(s), you both become throwable. At that point:

    Throw vs reversal frame throw: Coin toss.
    Throw vs reversal attack: Attack wins.
    Throw outside your throw range vs reversal throw attempt: The reversal attempt results in a regular attack, so you get thrown.


    Don't take this as gospel. I could be wrong about this. But that's the way I think it works.
  • RaakamRaakam Ryu apprentice Joined: Posts: 273
    The person being ticked has the advantage on counter throwing, assuming they are in range. As soon as the block/hit stun ends, they have the ability to counter throw before the opponent can.

    Scenario 1:
    Chun does st.mp to a cornered Ken:

    Ken can wake up reversal DP and make Chun-li regret the meaty attempt.

    Ken can wake up reversal throw. The only time wake up throws don't work is if the opponent is a) too far away, b) invincible (Initial frames of super, dp) c) in the air.

    The st.mp lands:

    As soon as the block stun ends, Ken can reversal throw. If he times it right, Chun-li loses 100% of the time.

    In counter throwing cases, Turbo users have a tremendous advantage. Assholes.

    Ken can screw up the timing. If he does it a little late, it's possible both him and Chun-li attempted to throw on the same frame, in which case the game randomly decides.

    Ken can reversal DP. He is invincible and cannot be thrown and hits Chun-li if she is trying to throw him. She gets a normal move and eats Ken's dp in the face.

    Scenario 2:

    T-Hawk attempts a st.mk against a cornered Dictator from the proper range (I'm sure Kuroppi or Jiggly could let you know where that is):

    T-Hawk is out of Dictator's throw range and thus cannot be counter thrown. Dictator can wake up reversal Devil's Reverse and use the invuln frames to get out (maybe).

    The tick lands.

    A) Dictator can attempt a reversal Devil's Reverse to escape. He can get away or the Hawk player guessed right and made him eat a psychic DP.

    Or

    B) Dictator attempts anything else and eats a Typhoon/Super. He is too far to counter throw and has nothing to escape.

    Stolen from the wiki:
    Reversals

    A reversal is defined as any time you go from a non-neutral state directly into a move (normal, special, super, or throw), without ever going to neutral state. A non-neutral state is any state that your opponent inflicts on you: block stun, hit stun, getting up after being knocked down, dizzy, or being knocked out of the air.

    Easiest example: your opponent knocks you down, and as you're getting up, you time a DP perfectly so that it comes out on the first frame possible. You never go to neutral state - you go directly from getting up animation to DP animation. You get a reversal message, and 1000 points! (Note that you only get a reversal message for specials and supers.)

    You can always do a reversal, no matter what your opponent is doing. Even if your opponent is doing a meaty attack to you as you land or as you get up, you can still reversal. Because throws are zero-frame (read: they have no start-up), a reversal throw will beat a meaty. Reversal throws can be used to escape things such as Boxer's [throw, walk under, meaty cr.Forward, throw] loop. (Throw him as you land, while he is trying to do the meaty cr.Forward.)

    and

    Randomness

    Unfortunately, in ST there is a fair amount of randomness. Known randomness includes:

    * The amount of damage done by a move (This can be extreme)
    * "dizzy meter" length. i.e. "How long it takes you to become dizzy"
    * The amount of dizzy damage done by a move
    * The charge times for special/super moves (Can vary up to 3 frames)
    * Ryu's [cr.Short->cr.Short xx super] simply won't combo half the time, even when timed perfectly.
    * Gief's standing 720 (He'll just jump half the time, even when timed perfectly)
    * Who gets the throw when both players input the command on the same frame.
    * Getting a normal move when attempting a wake-up throw against a meaty attack
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Guys...let's not overcomplicate this.

    Remember...the reversal window is a one frame window that still counts as hit/block stun. That means, the person *not* in hit/block stun *cannot* throw the person that is in hit/block stun. Meanwhile, the person that's in the reversal window...the person in the last frame of their hit/block stun...*can* throw someone within their throw range *or* perform a special move.

    If you need further explanation, this is covered quite well in Sirlin's ST tutorial. You'll even get video to see what I typed playing out before your eyes.

    The fact that a person in hit/block stun can throw or special move one frame before their attacker is why tick throws, air-reset throws, and throws on wake-up are actually escapable. If they weren't...well...then...yeah...they'd be cheap. :)
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  • Syxx573Syxx573 Jo Mama Joined: Posts: 8,963
    right right i get the basics and that i was more interested in the nitty gritty stuff and exceptions...

    for example I am convinced that well timed meaties are un(throw) reversible.... like there is a certain window ... like a small window where if you time your meaty right they can't do anything other than block or get hit.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    I am convinced that well timed meaties are un(throw) reversible.... like there is a certain window ... like a small window where if you time your meaty right they can't do anything other than block or get hit.

    Incorrect. The only way to do a meaty that cannot be countered by a reversal throw/attack is if the meaty attack is done from such a far distance that you are outside of the range of their throw or reversal attack.

    For example, if you do Gief's far crouching roundhouse from MAX range, so that just the tip of it hits, you might be far enough away to avoid being hit by a reversal SRK or to be thrown. If instead, you do Chun's close fierce punch as a meaty everyone should be able to reverse your attempt.

    The only reason why it seems like some of these things work is that people don't always nail the timing.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    right right i get the basics and that i was more interested in the nitty gritty stuff and exceptions...

    for example I am convinced that well timed meaties are un(throw) reversible.... like there is a certain window ... like a small window where if you time your meaty right they can't do anything other than block or get hit.
    A reversal special (that has invulnerable frames or attack hit boxes on the first frame) or a reversal throw will beat any meaty ground attack every time.

    That's why safe jumps are so great, you can option select your opponent with a well timed jump. If they reverse then you land safely in and block, if they don't reverse then they either block or eat your jump in.
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  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    Incorrect. The only way to do a meaty that cannot be countered by a reversal throw/attack is if the meaty attack is done from such a far distance that you are outside of the range of their throw or reversal attack.

    For example, if you do Gief's far crouching roundhouse from MAX range, so that just the tip of it hits, you might be far enough away to avoid being hit by a reversal SRK or to be thrown. If instead, you do Chun's close fierce punch as a meaty everyone should be able to reverse your attempt.

    The only reason why it seems like some of these things work is that people don't always nail the timing.

    risk/reward

    chun's cl.fp xx lightning legs is like 40% + probable dizzy lol
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  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    Which part? His standard crazy lk is slow as fuck. The vega comment is me raging because I asked n the ken thread and got no help for that matchup, I hate vega because I cannot figure out how to fight him properly.

    The vega comment you silly man.
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  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    for example I am convinced that well timed meaties are un(throw) reversible.... like there is a certain window ... like a small window where if you time your meaty right they can't do anything other than block or get hit.
    In general reversal throw will win, but there are certain times (seemingly random) where even a perfectly timed reversal throw won't work. Instead of a throw, you'll hear a reversal normal move come out (even though you were point-blank, and holding back). You can still block in this situation, because [normal move + block] on the same frame results in hearing the normal move but still blocking.

    I still have no idea why this happens, but I can reproduce it fairly easily.
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    In general reversal throw will win, but there are certain times (seemingly random) where even a perfectly timed reversal throw won't work. Instead of a throw, you'll hear a reversal normal move come out (even though you were point-blank, and holding back). You can still block in this situation, because [normal move + block] on the same frame results in hearing the normal move but still blocking.

    I still have no idea why this happens, but I can reproduce it fairly easily.

    Really? Wow, I've never seen that. The only thing close to this that I've experienced is Chun Li's Reversal Upkick. 9 out of 10 times I'll get it, but once in a while I'll hear her say "Yap!", but nothing comes out and I'm still blocking. Weird. And seems to happen only with Chun Li.
  • Syxx573Syxx573 Jo Mama Joined: Posts: 8,963
    In general reversal throw will win, but there are certain times (seemingly random) where even a perfectly timed reversal throw won't work. Instead of a throw, you'll hear a reversal normal move come out (even though you were point-blank, and holding back). You can still block in this situation, because [normal move + block] on the same frame results in hearing the normal move but still blocking.

    I still have no idea why this happens, but I can reproduce it fairly easily.

    OK Thanks!!! I always wondered about this. I knew I wasn't crazy though :)
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    The vega comment you silly man.

    It seems I can only beat vegas that try too many wall games, when they just turtle and poke I might as well just let them win.
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  • Data BeastData Beast Joined: Posts: 591
    I'd like to see a 'SF Anniversary' patch for HD Remix that adds 'old' versions of each character with elements from WW, CE and HF.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    ^^

    Well...the only thing about that is doing such a thing would *completely* unbalance the game. I believe a fairly reliable tier list for Anniversary Edition is in the Shoryuken.com Wiki. Check out the tiers there and you'll see what I mean.
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  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    Fuck yeah CE Bison !
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  • Data BeastData Beast Joined: Posts: 591
    ^^

    Well...the only thing about that is doing such a thing would *completely* unbalance the game. I believe a fairly reliable tier list for Anniversary Edition is in the Shoryuken.com Wiki. Check out the tiers there and you'll see what I mean.

    What I meant was that there would be a single rebalanced 'old' version of each character with elements from WW, CE and HF. It'd be like what Sirlin did with the SSF2 and SSF2T characters in HD Remix. I always thought that this is what they should have done in the first place.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    What I meant was that there would be a single rebalanced 'old' version of each character with elements from WW, CE and HF. It'd be like what Sirlin did with the SSF2 and SSF2T characters in HD Remix. I always thought that this is what they should have done in the first place.

    Oh...I get it now. :) I think that could be interesting.
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  • Josh-TheFunkDOCJosh-TheFunkDOC Double Dutch! Joined: Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    In general reversal throw will win, but there are certain times (seemingly random) where even a perfectly timed reversal throw won't work. Instead of a throw, you'll hear a reversal normal move come out (even though you were point-blank, and holding back). You can still block in this situation, because [normal move + block] on the same frame results in hearing the normal move but still blocking.

    I still have no idea why this happens, but I can reproduce it fairly easily.

    I think I can actually offer some decent guesses for this.

    Some normal moves may have unhittable boxes at their tip or some other weird area. I know this is the case with Boxer's low strong, at least. Hell, I use it as a meaty against Akuma since reversal DPs just whiff right through it.

    Or it could be the frame-dropping issue with higher game speed, similar to how safe-jumping against Ryu is a 50/50 proposition even with perfect timing.
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    That's because the throwable hitbox (same as the vulnerable hitbox?) is too far and you'll either block if you messed up or get hit if you try to reversal throw on time. But that's not what NKI is talking about. Sometimes, a point blank move with attack and vulnerable hitboxes definitely within throw range won't be reversal thrown and you'll just block but also hear the sound effect for that button's normal.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I love threads like this, just for the "theory fighter" arguments that pop up.I doubt that we'll see a rebalancing patch for this game, just purely for financial reasons from capcom, and i already think that HDR is the purest form of street fighter i've seen to date, so even if it's never re-rebalanced it's still my all time fave SF game, but here are my 2 cents on some of the more irksome things that could do with a change or 3.

    I'm trying to stay away from the "buff my favourite character and nerf everyone else" bullshit here and think of the overall game balance.

    Honda: Take away the stored ochio.Along with the lack of a whiff animation it's a major advantage that he doesn't need up close. In return give him back his stored super, and make the startup invulnerable to fireballs, not just the mid air part.The rationale for this is that it can be soooooo hard for honda to get into mid distance against the likes of turtling deejay that he needs an option from full screen.Also make the firece HHS even easier to mash out.I don't think that how fast you can mash should be an obstacle to whether you can get a special move or not, it should be available whenever you need it.Make the HHS do less chip damage across the board to compensate, and give the fierce one more pushback on block to push honda farther away.Leave the super as punishable on block, and make the fierce torpedo less safe on block so it's not as spammable.
    Jab torpedo should also be able to go through akuma's 3 hit red fireball, instead of getting hit by hits 2/3.This is just lame and adds to akuma's bullshit keep out tactics where he's already got a big advantage in that match.

    Ryu: Nothing except a few wierd random niggles like some combos not working even if you time them perfectly.I think they got it more or less right with him.Love the fake fireball's effect on his mind games.

    Ken: Some way to nerf the spam Jab dragon punch tactic that's so abused online because of lag.This is a tricky one, because the techniqie only works onlne, and is quite punishable offline, but the miniscule window to punish that's so random online just results in a spammable move that ken can do way too much with little risk.Spam should be punishable, not nearly risk free.Also slightly nerf the horizontal range of his fierce DP.Seems silly that i can jump back to evade it, and still get hit by it at the very apex, way late in it's trajectory.

    Deejay.Make it even easier to mash out all 4 hits on the MGU.It's a pretty worthless move as it is, except for in combos, it shouldn't whiff and leave you vulnerable after 1 or 2 hits.Sirlin fixed the same kind of issue by making ken's firece dragon punch juggle for 3 hits instead of sometimes whiff after the first one.If you get in and hit with an MGU you should get all 4 hits, to make it useful, not eat a reversal cause of the variable hit timings depending on how fast you mash.Also a tiny nerf on the startup of the max out projectile, because it's stoopid fast.

    Blanka: Completely buff his super.It's shit, and nobody falls for the "hold the button to delay it" trick.So many characters can just spam crouching jab on reaction once they see it start up, and will beat it clean.Take away the slow startup and make it come out instantly and travel around the same speed as dictator or honda's super instead but be somewhat vulnerable on block.

    Guile: Fix the "can't combo into super with the new motion" bug.Also make the mid air backbreaker move a more deliberate choice, instead of something that gomes out by accident when a guile who's in mid air and has started charging down back hits HK to kick you, and gets a backbreaker back throw by accident instead for twice the damage.Either nerf the damage by 50% to make it the same amount as a HK, or make the move a forward air throw only so he has to lose charge to go for it.Everything else is fine.Love the new overhead, and the speed feels just right.

    Boxer: Fix the TAP negative edging glitch, and less invincible startup on buffalo headbutt.Nothing else.

    Dictator: Give standing jab even more priority as an anti air.It would strengthen bison's corner game, but not by too much, a big damage anti air would give him too much advantage combined with his offense.The idea that somebody posted of giving him a teleport to escape corner traps is ludicrous.It would make him seriously overpowered.

    Akuma:Shit where do i start.It's all been said before, but key ones are a recovery on landing from air fireball, inability to do hi/low mixup with air fireball/crMK, no inescapable demon glitch, and all the usual broken bullshit.

    There are also loads of annoying things about the game design.There are other threads about these so i won't go into detail, but an option to kill the rubbish music all over the menu screens would be good, as well as both players having to hit OK to start the game in the lobby so you're not sucked into another match when you wanted to leave.An option to leave a spectator match would be good too, and generally making lobbies easier to get out of without disconnecting (aside from while actually fighting of course) would be good to have.

    Killing the menu screens to study the hitboxes in training mode, and a record mode to set up training on specific situations would also be priceless.An option for a 2 player training mode via xbox live would be cool for teaching people combos etc.
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  • TschesaeTschesae Joined: Posts: 178
    Oh you won't nerf my DJ^^

    Dee Jays gameplay is very much about his MOs and nerfing them would make him much worse. He's really fine as he is now. A bit like Ryu.


    I think rebalancing just Honda would make this game almost perfect. He generates the most unfair matchups of all the characters I think. I don't really know the effects of taking away the stored Ochio but to me it sounds good. Fierce HHS really do a lot of chip dam, especially when done on wakeup. Maybe just increase the pushback? Honda should be a powerful character and his HHS should feel damaging. Making the super go through fireballs on startups seems fair but then increase the pushback or Honda wins the round if he lands his Super.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    ^^

    Actually, I think that's a very good point. Nerfing Dee Jay's Max Out's would make his matchup with Ryu, who is already his worst matchup, even worse than it is now. Ryu's Hadoukens, which don't need a charge, easily help him win projectile wars against Dee Jay. Worse startup would make it easier for characters to jump and punish the Max Out and Ryu would stand to benefit *greatly* from that.
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  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Blanka: Completely buff his super.It's shit, and nobody falls for the "hold the button to delay it" trick.So many characters can just spam crouching jab on reaction once they see it start up, and will beat it clean.Take away the slow startup and make it come out instantly and travel around the same speed as dictator or honda's super instead but be somewhat vulnerable on block.

    If you try to use Blanka's Grand Shave Roll SC to catch people off-guard from more than their optimal poking range, it'll never work that way. Instead, use it the way it's intended...to anti-air any jump in and to catch limbs. As long as your opponent touches Blanka while he's in that forward bounce, they'll get popped up for you to juggle them. It's effective horizontal range may be short, but it is useful. (Just not as useful as other supers that are out there, though.)

    I think Blanka would be **really** scary if he had his "Direct Lightning" (Was that the name? I forget.) Souped Up Horizontal Ball SC from CvS2. (Note how good that super made him in that game.) It would probably be even more scary good than a Shinkuu Hadouken or Crazy Buffalo! I don't think that would be a good thing, personally. Maybe the solution is to make Blanka bounce further forward for the beginning of the Grand Shave Roll? Maybe the distance of a Short "Rainbow" Roll? *shrug*
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  • TschesaeTschesae Joined: Posts: 178
    We should do a meeting with some software programmers and test through this shit for some days => that would really help us improving the balancing even more
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    blanka's new super works fine. anti airing people for 40% + safe chip and positioning on wakeup is perfectly fine. It'll even psychic punish fireballs from half screen. yomi!
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  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    If you try to use Blanka's Grand Shave Roll SC to catch people off-guard from more than their optimal poking range, it'll never work that way. Instead, use it the way it's intended...to anti-air any jump in and to catch limbs.

    Sure, i take your point, and it's a great anti air, but is that really what he needs to compliment his arsenal? Most matches i play against blanka i never jump in on him.I'm usually trying to stay the fuck away from him, cos he's scary and confusing up close, and all i ever see his super used for is the example i mentioned, which i hurt every time.In comparison, look at honda's super. It starts really fast, can be used as an anti air in the same way as blanka's, can juggle for BIG damage depending on the distance, and also adds a huge amount to his ranged game in terms of being able to start up quickly and travel long distances to cut through many normals/specials.

    Seems silly that honda gets a BFBF super that really adds to his game, both as anti air and long range fast attacks, and blanka has to stick with one that's only good for jump in protection even though half the cast will be too far away to jump in on him.
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  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    We should do a meeting with some software programmers and test through this shit for some days => that would really help us improving the balancing even more

    Much like with even seeing these changes appear in HDR, we could only hope that whoever would decide to take on the challenge of sifting through all of that code to make these changes would want to go through playtesting all of the matches, too. Even in that case, we would be very fortunate to have them recruit people who have mastery with all of the characters.

    Of course, since we're hoping beyond hope, here, we may as well hope that Sirlin, who is no longer with Backbone Entertainment, would be contracted to do the task. We would then further hope that he would take our suggestions seriously instead of thinking that we're ungrateful for all of the hard work he's put into this game.

    All of that being said, stranger things have happened. Who would've thought that this game would even exist, for starters? We're seeing some nice dreams come true these days. I know some people think these threads are a waste of time, but when I look at all of the stuff that's been coming down the pipe in the past 5 years, I think it's better to dream and hope it comes to pass than not to dream at all.

    Besides...if it happens, it'll be because of all of the stuff being written here. So, let's just say that this thread is here...just in case. :)

    Just remember, y'all.....even when you've got 10,000 smelly and blood-thirsty (and don't forget the hot bad breath!) Oruk-Hai knocking at your keep to get at your people...there's always hope. :D
    Onaje Everett
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  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,088
    anti airing people for 40% + safe chip and positioning on wakeup is perfectly fine.

    I don't think it is safe chip against the entire cast. Pretty sure Balrog can tag back with his super.
    ST/HDR: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • TschesaeTschesae Joined: Posts: 178
    The closer you are the less save it is I think.

    @Fresh: That's what I actually dream of :D
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    Chun can def reversal super and tag E.Honda before he can do anything about it.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

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  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I wouldn't call it "safe" chip, i use the HHS a lot for chip damage when i play with honda, and i often get thrown, supered, upkicked, dragon punched, you name it, out of it, however it is pretty annoying after getting hit by his super to have to block those 4 or 5 hits that could take off as much as another heavy kick from the life bar.

    You've got to be sneaky and cover the HHS with a safe jump in attack or mash it out under cover of another standing attack or something so they're caught by surprise with it and don't have a reversal ready.If you telegraph it (ie stand over them as they're getting up from a knockdown spamming punches and making it obvious that a HHS is on the way) you'll get caught out a lot, and a savvy opponent will wise up to what you're doing pretty quickly.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • MechanicaMechanica elias the flyest Joined: Posts: 6,252
    Yeah let's make the multibutton moves even LESS than 3 inputs to mash out :looney:
    KOForever WHY IS 14 SO UGLY whyyyy is alex's neutral stance so ugly
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    anti airing people for 40% + safe chip and positioning on wakeup is perfectly fine

    My bad.I thought you were on about Honda's HHS.Not sure about the safe chip on blanka's super so i won't comment on that, my only real beef with it is that it has limited uses, and IMO it's very telegraphed compared to a lot of already better characters that also have better, faster, or more versatile supers.
    Yeah let's make the multibutton moves even LESS than 3 inputs to mash out :looney:

    If this is referring to my post earlier, i honestly think that fierce mash moves like the HP Hundred hand slap or the HK Lightning kicks should be even easier to mash out.Have you tried using them with any consistency? The light and medium ones are fine, but the heavy ones are still a little too tough to rely on in a pinch, and it takes away from the tactical element of the game.You get them most of the time, but they're easy to fuck up, and they can stop and start erratically unless you're VERY fast with mashing.There can be a tactical difference to using a fierce HHS over a strong HHS, such as the forward distance covered on startup, or the amount of pushback on block.Good players don't just go for the strongest one every time, and you should have all 3 available easily when you need them.I use fierce HHS a lot and get them about 9 out of 10 times, but if they don't come out when you need them you're toast. A fierce dragon punch or fireball is available on request, all you have to do is hit the command and you don't have to worry about it not coming out.You can rely on geting it 100%. Why shouldn't a fierce HHS be the same?

    My point is that at any reasonably high level of playing street fighter, all of a character's special moves are available to you on comand. Nobody who's any good really fucks up inputs for special moves very often, they get them when they want them. Why should a fierce or roundhouse mash move be any different? IMO It should be available easily, on command without risk of it being messed up, to allow the player to concentrate on tactics rather than button commands.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • TschesaeTschesae Joined: Posts: 178
    I think you underestimate the players here. Afaik every good Honda or Chun player is able to pull off his mashing moves with 100% consistency. It just needs some practice, exactly as it needs some practice to be able to DP 100% consistent.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    Was there not an argument made earlier that the difficulty of the moves helps balance them ?

    Such as if dp was a one button move shotos would be unbeatable ?
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    I honestly think that fierce mash moves like the HP Hundred hand slap or the HK Lightning kicks should be even easier to mash out. Have you tried using them with any consistency?
    This is why ST >>>> HDR.

    The commands in ST were made to be prohibitively difficult. So if you wanted to do hands or a 360 command throw it required you to focus on execution, sometimes heavily on execution. The more mental energy you spend focusing on timing a reversal, or combo, or safe jump, or hands, etc. means you have less mental energy to focus on spacing and other strategies.

    ST rewarded the hardcore who developed muscle memory and exact timing for difficult moves. The more used to inputting difficult commands you were the less mental energy you had to spend thinking about them. Meaning the more mental energy you could allocate into thinking about how you were going to approach your opponent or get out of the corner or whatever.

    Explain to me how there are tons of top players in the world who can mash hands or perform difficult moves execution wise with maximum consistency? Do you know why they can performs hands or legs or electricity in ST so well? Because they are good players and not whining scrubs who want the game dumbed down and made easier for them.

    The sad part is that you, and many other new HDR players, want these moves to be easier but they already are easier than their ST counterparts. Mashing moves have been made easier, random input windows for joystick commands have been made easier, 360 command throws now have a new easy input to them. How much dumber do you want SFII to become?

    I find it annoying that Sirlin wrote a book called 'Play To Win' where one of the chapters was dedicated to informing people that a serious amount of time would be necessary to invest in playing a game in order to get good at it. And that even more time would be required to get at a competitive level. "If you want to be good you need to practice endlessly" was basically the message. Then for HDR he turns 180 and says that 'ST takes too much time to get good at' so 'for HDR I will make select moves easier for scrubs who complained about not being able to do a walk-up 360 command throw'. What the fuck?
    The light and medium ones are fine, but the heavy ones are still a little too tough to rely on in a pinch, and it takes away from the tactical element of the game.
    They are only tough because you refuse to practice. Get in training mode and practice. Don't complain about the game being hard. If you think moves are hard in HDR then NEVER touch ST EVER.

    And prohibitive input difficulty is a part of the tactics of the game. You think reversals are easy? How about safe jumps? Why not make the reversal window ten frames? Or make safe jumps have less strict timing? Why not macro every combo to one button? :sweat:
    Good players don't just go for the strongest one every time, and you should have all 3 available easily when you need them.
    So again if the game is too hard why not practice? You think the solution is to make the game easier for you to play. The moves are easily available to people who practice and not complain. :rolleyes:
    My point is that at any reasonably high level of playing street fighter, all of a character's special moves are available to you on comand. Nobody who's any good really fucks up inputs for special moves very often, they get them when they want them.
    Yeah the reason they don't fail at getting a special move out consistently is because they spend hours at the arcade or having offline console sessions in large groups or they spend time in training mode actually getting good.

    If you aren't willing to practice to get good then do not complain.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    How many frames do u get to reverse? I think a few extra frames for ONLINE wouldnt hurt.
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  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    How many frames do u get to reverse? I think a few extra frames for ONLINE wouldnt hurt.

    Offense should be rewarded not defense.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    How many frames do u get to reverse? I think a few extra frames for ONLINE wouldnt hurt.

    I hit reversal dps and 360/720 online all the time.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I hit reversal dps and 360/720 online all the time.

    I do too but how consistent are u?

    Im not looking to make this sfiv but online can, does, and will drop frames, ive lost so many matches just because my reversal didnt feel like coming out. Especially when they meaty u practically every time, like torpedo when u have 0 health.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • MechanicaMechanica elias the flyest Joined: Posts: 6,252
    If this is referring to my post earlier, i honestly think that fierce mash moves like the HP Hundred hand slap or the HK Lightning kicks should be even easier to mash out.Have you tried using them with any consistency?
    Seriously, just double tap index-middle-index finger. Three button presses is FINE. There was a reason they were five before, the shit isn't insanely easy to do because it's insanely good. Handslaps and lightning legs do stupid damage, stupid chip, and now they're stupid easy. It doesn't need to get any easier. Sure they're nerfed but not in proportion to how damn easy they are to do now. If it was merely two button presses, you would get handslaps instead of trying to tech a throw sometimes, thus always getting thrown. It would cause more problems than it would solve, and it would only benefits scrubs who want to mash hard punch all day with honda. Fierce handslaps go a crazy distance too, and really Honda does not need an even easier way to close that much distance. He's already buff as hell especially against non fireball characters... If you could whip out fierce handslaps with two button presses those matches would be unwinnable if the Honda knew anything at all. Just down charge and do some fierce HHS, jab headbutt if they jump or do anything aerial... it would just be nasty. While I understand your wanting to be able to do things with consistency, lowering it to three inputs is fine. Seriously. If you can't do that, I'm sorry but play a different character like Guile or something.

    Speaking of Guile, make it so you can combo into his super with that cheesy ass input? Are you serious? No supercombo in this game should be easy, especially not how braindead easy that would be. Guile does NOT need to be doing that much damage off a crossup or a c.lk without having the execution skills to do it with the old super input. You could hit confirm into super all day for like 60% damage. Do you really want to take that much damage when you finally close in on Guile? He's good enough, Guile is very solid. Overheads, amazing pokes (ever played someone who knows how to use hopkick? ugh so much priority when it's out), easy super, good projectiles... He really needs no more changes.

    I'm sorry but if you want to rebalance this game you need to take a small step backwards in some respects, not another sirlin-step. I understand not wanting to just nerf nerf nerf but if you just buff buff buff it turns into a nasty scrubfest. Vanilla ST was not that bad, but sirlin seemed to have thought it was so terribly unbalanced. He probably just didn't want to release a game that was too similar... which is a shame because ST was actually a really fucking good game, despite it's flaws.
    KOForever WHY IS 14 SO UGLY whyyyy is alex's neutral stance so ugly
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I definitely agree that mash moves should not be made easier. Slaps, Legs, MGU, Electricity, all of that is fine the way it is in Remix.

    I also agree that if there is a rebalancing of the game, it should be in a direction closer to classic ST. Especially characters like Fei Long (Flying Kicks should be closer to the way they were in classic ST) and Hawk (needs his old knockdown dive).

    Having said that, some characters have SERIOUSLY benefitted from the rebalance changes in Remix. Ken (Crazy Kicks no longer have crazy motions), Guile (mixup after Sonic Boom, overhead or low kick) and Dictator (Devil's Reverse able to escape meaty fireballs), and a lot of other characters.

    For the record, Sirlin never said that classic ST was unbalanced. If you have proof of this, please provide a link and a quote. IMO, ST is a very well balanced game. And Remix is even more balanced.
  • MechanicaMechanica elias the flyest Joined: Posts: 6,252
    Why would you rebalance something that isn't unbalanced? I'm not saying anything about what sirlin said (or I didn't mean to), I really don't know what he thinks about anything. I have a hard time taking him seriously.. he plays fei long and did those things to him? :sad: I just said it seemed that way, I guess I was inferring. I can't see any other reason to change the game the way he did... some of the changes are just so stupid to me. I guess it's more balanced but it's really hard to say just how balanced it is because nobody plays the shit seriously. It probably doesn't help that there's no physical copy of the game to be had.

    Anyway, just adding more sirlin-esque tweaks and buffs would just make this game even more gross and far away from the classic game it's supposed to emulate. I think the characters with the least changes were taken in the right direction, the bare minimum. Dictator needed the s.lp buff and the devil's reverse thing is cool because he escapes pressure but is punishable if predicted. Cammy needed the safer cannon drill and the spin knuckle to have SOME use. I don't like the whole 'psychic anti-air and then potentially do a gross juggle' aspect of the changes like with Fei Long, Ken, Sagat, Chun's new sbk is pretty much a psychic anti-air, whoop de doo. I'm just annoyed at the fact that casual players get thought about more than the more serious players. From the perspective of someone who wants to make money though, it makes sense. I just feel shafted in the recent games like HDR and SF4 with all the focus on making shit easier which has some negative consequences. Don't mind me though, I'm just bitter. :bgrin:
    KOForever WHY IS 14 SO UGLY whyyyy is alex's neutral stance so ugly
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    snip

    I agree entirely with this.

    The changes should all have been minute and directly related to difficulties characters had.

    Such as Guile getting a flashkick that can hit Vega slide.
    And the other examples such as Honda needing help to get in on Fireballers.

    But everything else is dross and has no reason to be changed. Ken getting o.ken's Srk's buffs him for sure.

    But in what matchup did he need better Anti air's ?

    If Sirlin had stuck to only making changes that were directly related to matchup difficulties rather than just buffing lower tier characters and nerfing upper tier characters i think the game would have turned out alot better.

    ps(Ken was just an example don't go all nerd rage on me.)
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • gridmangridman Drill Joined: Posts: 3,221
    i do too but how consistent are u?

    Im not looking to make this sfiv but online can, does, and will drop frames, ive lost so many matches just because my reversal didnt feel like coming out. Especially when they meaty u practically every time, like torpedo when u have 0 health.

    95% +
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