Rebalancing ST Remix

1484951535465

Comments

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    It's easy to imagine that complete balance is the ultimate goal, but for SF2, that's only been the case when western designers like DJames Goddard and David Sirlin got involved. Meanwhile, for ST, I think it's more apt to say that the designers tried to add more fun and options (supers, juggles, techs, more special normals). Judging from the fact that most later SF games adopted ST's changes as a base, I would judge that a success.

    One of Sirlin's main goals was to add fun where it wouldn't adversely affect tournament balance. Things like the juggles on Fei Long's CW kicks (other more debatable changes not considered) and Dic's fake slide are great additions that seem to meet the best of both worlds for both of the eastern and western criteria you listed. You have a great point on maximizing the overall options of the cast (as opposed to rebalancing everything to as close to even as possible), and the effectiveness/utility with each set, ala Ken's SRKs in HDR; things like this are what make the game the most fun and dynamic to play. I would much rather have a few more dynamic options for someone like T.Hawk than an "easy out" flat solution that makes a match against Honda almost 5-5. I guess I should say "optimize" more often instead of "rebalance."

    Whatever or not Capcom planned to use HDR to simply whet our SF appetites before IV was released is irrelevant; regardless of intention, a great game was produced. If they ever think they can squeeze another few bucks out of me in the long run, they're right, and I hope that in that off-chance they give us more great options they know we'd like to see.
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    As far as i know, World Warrior and Super Street Fighter II was most popular than ST, too many people just didn't like the changes and super metters.

    Correct me if i'm wrong.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    We'll never know the exact reason why ST didn't do well at the arcades. Judging by sales success, each SF2 did worse than the previous. At least in the US, MK was taking over as SF2 declined.
    Why go through the trouble of remixing ST then? They could have just released it as is.

    Are you referring to remixing the graphics, remixing the music, or remixing the mechanics? Here are my views and understanding on all 3.

    1. The graphical remix was an obvious inclusion to try and appeal to newer players, those with HDTV sets, as well as Udon comics fans. Plus, Capcom didn't expect all the art trouble to happen.
    2. The music remix was apparently obtained from OCRemix for free, provided a touch of modern sound instrumentation, and gave the game more features to boast.
    3. The game was originally intended to be a straight port mechanics-wise of DC ST, maybe tweaking the most powerful tactics, but Sirlin later decided to eventually make it a full rebalance.
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Are you referring to remixing the graphics, remixing the music, or remixing the mechanics? Here are my views and understanding on all 3.

    1. The graphical remix was an obvious inclusion to try and appeal to newer players, those with HDTV sets, as well as Udon comics fans. Plus, Capcom didn't expect all the art trouble to happen.
    2. The music remix was apparently obtained from OCRemix for free, provided a touch of modern sound instrumentation, and gave the game more features to boast.
    3. The game was originally intended to be a straight port mechanics-wise of DC ST, maybe tweaking the most powerful tactics, but Sirlin later decided to eventually make it a full rebalance.

    Now i enjoy ST more than HDR, now i prefer to spend my time on GGPO and ST just because stric inputs and faster SPEED, However, ST is a game with a lot of bugs(gameplay bugs), affecting some characters in a negative way, like no reversals supers, some overpowered moves and loops, and the lack of debuggin on some moves, such CW, ken's dps, no reversal super for ken, sagat and sim, and buggy honda's super, these bugs are accepted and confirmed by the developers themselves, because the lack of time.

    I really like HDR because sirlin made justice, to these characters and nerfed some other overpowered characters.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • SG10xSG10x Blanka Sucks Joined: Posts: 402
    I like ST and I like HDR too. Its only when I go back to ST after playing HDR for a while that I am glad for the differences. I mean does Blanka really need to get hit by Ryu's Fireball after he hits a three hit combo that involves a ball? Does Rog being as strong as he is really need to have Safe buffalo head butt? We played ST when there was no HDR because that was all there we were happy with it. There were times when I would be like damn E honda gets a free head butt everytime I do a ball what were the Japanese thinking, did they hate Blanka as a character that much or did they just not think things through? Then HDR came out and solved some of the issues, though not perfect. I am not claiming HDR is the best or that ST sucks because I'll play either, but what I am tired of seeing is people defending one and not playing the other because that will eventually just lead to us not having either at major tournaments. Like DGV said we just have to unite and pick one, all the older players Valle, Cole, Choi could careless what it is and they still beat people who think they are good on both coasts. We just have to stop complaining about every single little issue (4:3 or 16:9, PS3 vs Xbox360, ST or HDR)
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,187
    We'll never know the exact reason why ST didn't do well at the arcades. Judging by sales success, each SF2 did worse than the previous. At least in the US, MK was taking over as SF2 declined.

    By the time ST came out, Street Fighter 2 was so over-saturated that everyone was kinda making fun of it. Everyone was ready for something new, and MK (and to a lesser extent, SNK fighters) kinda filled that void. I don't think everyone realized how awesome ST truly was until a lot later.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    Fightcade/USF2: x64
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    .....If the game doesn't get any further releases, we still have a great game to play, sweet! No one's "holding out" for anything else...but if it does happen, good input could only help make for a richer experience. That's why I take this relatively seriously to many who post in this thread. Thanks for your help, everybody. =)


    I agree with everything you said in your post, and well said. With my street fighter fan hat on, i love this thread and others like it, and i think the very idea of getting together to debate the finer points of the character rebalance and have a record of it is fantastic, and would be very handy if anything were ever to come of it, but with my business hat on it doesn't make any sense to me why capcom would do anything other than completely ignore it, other than out of a pure fan service motivation with disregard for financial concerns.

    That's a real shame, because threads like this are hands down the best source of very detailed and for the most part VERY well informed debate by experienced and serious players. I wish something like it had existed for sirlin when he was doing the initial remix. This thread alone represents a lot more research and ideas than capcom would ever pay good R&D money to go figure out by themselves. One HELL of a swan song for the street fighter 2 series could be produced out of a lot of the insights people have contributed here and in threads like it over the past 21 months or so. (damn, has it been that long?)

    IF (and i do mean IF) capcom were ever to do another street fighter 2 game, if the will was there for the 20th anniversary to actually put some real, non soley cash-driven love into re-releasing a definitive, final, "last time we're ever gonna touch it" version of SF2 HDR or ST, maybe on a stand alone media or something cool like that, the information in this thread and a couple of other remix wishlist threads would give them enough information to leave us with a doozy of a game that would be the definitive tourney standard for the series for the rest of it's days. All that i think is missing is the will to do it at capcom HQ.

    Just out of interest. If capcom were to do it, Who here would buy a "street fighter 2 the definitive collection" disc for the PS3 or 360? If it were produced to coincide with the 20th anniversary, a collection of all five SF2 games, arcade perfect, in stand alone title by title format, maybe with graphics smoothing filters like MVC2 had when they re-released it, plus a definitive properly remixed version of HDR, all with proper netcode, training modes, lobbies, online options etc? I would buy it immediately, and price wouldn't be an issue. I would buy it just so i could feel part of a unified community who were all on the same page once again instead of scattered across multiple games and platforms as they have been for ten years.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • KAOSPIDERKAOSPIDER Maximum Spider Joined: Posts: 510
    Just out of interest. If capcom were to do it, Who here would buy a "street fighter 2 the definitive collection" disc for the PS3 or 360? If it were produced to coincide with the 20th anniversary, a collection of all five SF2 games, arcade perfect, in stand alone title by title format, maybe with graphics smoothing filters like MVC2 had when they re-released it, plus a definitive properly remixed version of HDR, all with proper netcode, training modes, lobbies, online options etc?

    My head just exploded! I would have bought it yesterday for $200!
    The Coffin Corner: Where Dreams Go to Die

    E. Honda, Balrog & Vega: Street Fighter for Dummies
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    But wasn't the point of HD Remix to "balance" ST? If that was the case, then isn't HD Remix the perfect game?

    Last time I checked, I haven't seen any reports of you walking on water. Anyway, hope you do well in your match against Snake Eyes. Right now, that appears to be the only thing you have to "contribute" to the community. I'll ignore your posts in this thread until you actually have something on topic to say.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,455
    @Mackdaddy

    Even if a thread like this did exist....... developer vanity is kind of in question here......... would Sirlin even bother to use suggestions from here or just add what he thinks would balance the game.......

    @Kao

    That game would be in my hand through any means necessary.....
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • ShirtsShirts Former Video Game Player Joined: Posts: 519
    Last time I checked, I haven't seen any reports of you walking on water. Anyway, hope you do well in your match against Snake Eyes. Right now, that appears to be the only thing you have to "contribute" to the community. I'll ignore your posts in this thread until you actually have something on topic to say.

    It's a serious question.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    It actually is a legitimate point, OJ. I mean, it REALLY is. No other game has 15 years of knowledge to build off of. And the game was designed to compress tiers. Super was designed to "expand" on Super, because Super was too slow and too many people complained about it. They had to spice it up with Juggles and Supers and increase the speed. Super was created to use the CPS2 board and add new characters. Hyper was created to combat the Korean chips. And Champion Edition was created as a sequel, like all popular games get.

    But HDR had a lot of knowledge to work off of. The ability to adjust the game in such a way to make it more balanced by things we know was incredible. It was unprecedented. In other words, the potential to make HDR near-perfect was within grasp. The problem is, and this thread exemplifies this, it just wasn't gonna be a one-try thing. There are a lot of things Sirlin tried that were risky, and some paid off and some didn't. For HDR to truly have worked, I think it would have taken 3 revisions or so, and be willing to try new things and revert things back to before. Like the new Spinning Bird Kick was a failure: changing it back would be better for the game. The problem is, we just don't have any facilities that would allow these types of changes and reversions and new changes and such. Especially since the guy who was in charge and actually GOT the balance made in the first place no longer works at the company that made the game.

    So my point is that the Super to Super Turbo comparison is very invalid, OJ. The circumstances by which the games came about (HDR from ST and ST from Super) were night and day.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    It's a serious question.

    Serious answer: Absolute perfection is an unattainable goal that regardless we should all continue to strive for.

    therefore: no SF2 version is ever perfect, but we can always strive to make the next one better than the last.

    which then follows that: there can truly be no end to the amount of remixes.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Mad Possum pretty much summed up what I was thinking. To infer that HDR should be perfect is to forget your own imperfection...and if there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that you can't convince a person of anything when they're stuck in their own pride. I don't have time for that.

    By the way, if Shirts' question was worth responding to, then why was my question worth ignoring? I asked a serious and most certainly on topic question, too. What, Shirts, would you suggest in rebalancing ST, which...by the way...is what this thread is about? The proper answer to that question is not to give a response that makes me think you're trying to convince me that you take strolls across the Atlantic Ocean on a regular basis. The proper answer...is...to answer. As you can tell, pride is a thing I despise. Don't worry, though. I despise it more when I see it in myself.

    Come at me with humility and respect. That's all I'm saying. That's all I try to do. Do that and then I'll discuss with you. Answer my questions when I ask them, and I'll answer yours. Otherwise, I'll stay drama-free because I don't give out pearls just so they can be trampled. I only give them out when they're valued.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • VintageVintage Anticipating... Joined: Posts: 311
    So...who's going to make a "Let's Get a New SF2" Signature Thread on Fighting Game Discussion? Apparently, signature threads are the new rage these days.
    Driven beyond obsession
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    It's a serious question.

    You know what? I thought about it and I'll give you another chance. It's pretty easy to misconstrue intent over the 'net. I even wrote about that somewhere on this forum so, yeah, I'll do that. That being said, one thing to note about me is that I give respect because I value it back. So, I can only take your question as seriously as you took mine. Yes, I asked you a question first, sir. You kinda acted it like it wasn't there. I'll paste it here so that you remember it.

    So, what would *you* do to rebalance ST, Shirts?

    There it is in plain view. Answer my seriously on topic question, please, so that I can see how much you'll actually value any serious answer I would give.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    It actually is a legitimate point, OJ. I mean, it REALLY is. No other game has 15 years of knowledge to build off of. And the game was designed to compress tiers. Super was designed to "expand" on Super, because Super was too slow and too many people complained about it. They had to spice it up with Juggles and Supers and increase the speed. Super was created to use the CPS2 board and add new characters. Hyper was created to combat the Korean chips. And Champion Edition was created as a sequel, like all popular games get.

    But HDR had a lot of knowledge to work off of. The ability to adjust the game in such a way to make it more balanced by things we know was incredible. It was unprecedented. In other words, the potential to make HDR near-perfect was within grasp. The problem is, and this thread exemplifies this, it just wasn't gonna be a one-try thing. There are a lot of things Sirlin tried that were risky, and some paid off and some didn't. For HDR to truly have worked, I think it would have taken 3 revisions or so, and be willing to try new things and revert things back to before. Like the new Spinning Bird Kick was a failure: changing it back would be better for the game. The problem is, we just don't have any facilities that would allow these types of changes and reversions and new changes and such. Especially since the guy who was in charge and actually GOT the balance made in the first place no longer works at the company that made the game.

    So my point is that the Super to Super Turbo comparison is very invalid, OJ. The circumstances by which the games came about (HDR from ST and ST from Super) were night and day.

    - James

    As usual, James, you're right...but I have to take this one thing away from you...I wasn't talking about transistioning from Super to ST. (Mistaken identity, perhaps?) I specifically asked Shirts how he would rebalance ST, in light of the fact that he thinks that HDR is soooooooooo inferior (which he has every right to think, by the way) to the point that he has to come into the forum for a game he doesn't even like and pour haterade all over the thread that would actually aim to address and solve his issues with the game and possibly come out with something *even* better. If he's really going to post in here and he truly has a beef with HDR, wouldn't this be the place to post.........wait for it.........ways to make HDR "the game it should have been according to Shirts"?

    Just a thought. I once heard a man say that anyone can point out problems, but it takes someone special to point out the solutions in those problems. Be the solution and stand out is all I'm saying. This really is a "dream" thread, you know. It might not happen, but hey...I didn't think HDR would happen. You never know.

    By the way, there's only one sure-fire way to avoid failing to change something for the better: do nothing. I commend Sirlin for at least trying.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • ShirtsShirts Former Video Game Player Joined: Posts: 519
    You know what? I thought about it and I'll give you another chance. It's pretty easy to misconstrue intent over the 'net. I even wrote about that somewhere on this forum so, yeah, I'll do that. That being said, one thing to note about me is that I give respect because I value it back. So, I can only take your question as seriously as you took mine. Yes, I asked you a question first, sir. You kinda acted it like it wasn't there. I'll paste it here so that you remember it.

    So, what would *you* do to rebalance ST, Shirts?

    There it is in plain view. Answer my seriously on topic question, please, so that I can see how much you'll actually value any serious answer I would give.

    Yo, FreshOJ. My bad. I totally forgot to reply to that. I will reply soon to that once I give your question some thought. But, no need to get snarky. :) We are all lovers of the spirit of these games, ST and / or HD.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Yo, FreshOJ. My bad. I totally forgot to reply to that. I will reply soon to that once I give your question some thought. But, no need to get snarky. :) We are all lovers of the spirit of these games, ST and / or HD.

    Ok. That's a reply I can get with. It's all good. I look forward to your response. I'm sure a player of your caliber has a lot to say on this.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    there can truly be no end to the amount of remixes.

    Possum speaks the truth. The song "Silence", by Delerium, empirically proves this fact.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    So...who's going to make a "Let's Get a New SF2" Signature Thread on Fighting Game Discussion? Apparently, signature threads are the new rage these days.

    If anybody is thinking seriously about getting a petition together to show capcom the kind of numbers of people that would be interested in paying cash for a 20th aniversary collection of SF2/HDR, i think we're limiting the chances of it getting enough attention for it to succeed by putting it on SRK. To all but us hardcore players, shoryuken.com doesn't mean anything, and isn't worth the time to trawl around or join up to to sign a petition. A facebook group is the way to go, you'll throw a net over a much wider group of both hardcore and casual players and not just restrict yourself to SRK members. If you use facebook, if people want to show their support they can just hit "join group" which takes ten seconds, and there are much more options on there for spreading the word to friends they might have who would put their name to it.

    If anybody who has a bit of facebook knowledge has a think about the best wording etc for it and what we want (20th anniversary collection on a DISC including re-remixed HDR :tup: ) sets it up i PROMISE i'll get every single person i know who even knows what street fighter 2 is to join it.
    That game would be in my hand through any means necessary.....

    That's the only reason why it would ever be possible. I would literally pay any amount of cash for it too, so would most people on this board i'd bet, and not because we don't already have those games (hell i've got multiple versions of ALL of them across tons of different platforms, so do most of us), it's because i would buy it for the community factor. After so many different releases over the years, a game like that would put the community back together all in one place, on one platform to play out the end of the street fighter 2 story, instead of everybody playing scattered all over the place on different games and formats and numbers dwindling. It would mean that (if it was done properly) we'd all have a unified game that we could all get behind all playing together on and a definitive, agreed place we could gather online at as some kind of unified group. It would be like a heart transplant for the sf2 scene.

    I wish there were some way we could tell capcom that there are loads of people out there who would fork out loads of money for it, as long as it was done right. (cough, cough facebook group)
    the potential to make HDR near-perfect was within grasp. The problem is, and this thread exemplifies this, it just wasn't gonna be a one-try thing. There are a lot of things Sirlin tried that were risky, and some paid off and some didn't. For HDR to truly have worked, I think it would have taken 3 revisions or so, and be willing to try new things and revert things back to before.....The problem is, we just don't have any facilities that would allow these types of changes and reversions and new changes and such..

    I agree with your post james, i think that's why i think HDR needs a new release if we're ever going to see a refined version of it. Capcom will only put money into redeveloping HDR if it can tap into a new revenue stream and if the numbers add up on recouping the costs of that work, that's just a hard fact of business. They won't pay for development costs to re-patch a game to please a small niche of very serious players and have no prospect of getting any new revenue from it. If they wanted to though, they could re-remix HDR and label it the final version or ultimate version or whatever, put it on a disc, package it up with the rest of the games, slap on some netcode, and do a big marketing push to the gaming community at large who buy their games in shops or online vendors, rather than to the small percentage of gamers who buy games as DLC.

    Hell, in terms of HDR, 99% of the work on it has already been done, the sprites are all redrawn in HD, the music, the backgrounds, the bulk of the remixing is all complete. It would only take a final bit of work, some market confidence from capcom, and a little bit of will to put some real love into it out of respect for the series, instead of another cash cow project, and it could actually happen.
    @Mackdaddy

    Even if a thread like this did exist....... developer vanity is kind of in question here......... would Sirlin even bother to use suggestions from here or just add what he thinks would balance the game.

    I prefer to give sirlin the benefit of the doubt here, because he's been much maligned over the last couple of years about the remix, but i think on the whole he did an admirable job under difficult conditions. Even taking into account some of the more contentious decisions he made unilaterally (chun, hawk, fei, etc), i honestly think he was acting in the best interest of the game, and doing what he did out of love of it, as a fan and longtime player, and out of a belief that he was improving it. The handful of issues arose out of either not enough consideration of the balncing concerns by people other than him, or not enough playtesting, both of which can be boiled down to the amount of time and resources capcom threw at the project. More staf and more play time, and also a better outsourced cheapass developer than backbone would have made a big difference to the finished product.

    As someone who clealy loves the game, I like to think sirlin would have taken any available info into consideration at least, but i would have loved to see less of a unilateral approach to him having the final say. I can think of at least a half a dozen OG players on SRK that are easily as knowledgeable, and a lot of those guys were at least consulted on the project but only one guy had the final say. That was a mistake in my book, but again, that stuff all boils down to bottom line for capcom
    By the way, there's only one sure-fire way to avoid failing to change something for the better: do nothing. I commend Sirlin for at least trying.

    I second that. I would much rather have HDR, even in it's curent, only slightly imperfect form than not have it at all. I commend him for a genuine effort to contibute to the community.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    Best SF2 game IMO:

    Keep HDR rebalance plus just a few other rerebalancing with ST strict inputs and speed.

    Next SF2 iteration:

    Super Street Fighter II Turbo X Plus Alpha: HD 3D ReReReMix Strict Inputs: Second Impact.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

    The Crew - www.nohonorcrew.com/
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,636
    But HDR had a lot of knowledge to work off of. The ability to adjust the game in such a way to make it more balanced by things we know was incredible. It was unprecedented. In other words, the potential to make HDR near-perfect was within grasp. The problem is, and this thread exemplifies this, it just wasn't gonna be a one-try thing. There are a lot of things Sirlin tried that were risky, and some paid off and some didn't. For HDR to truly have worked, I think it would have taken 3 revisions or so, and be willing to try new things and revert things back to before. Like the new Spinning Bird Kick was a failure: changing it back would be better for the game. The problem is, we just don't have any facilities that would allow these types of changes and reversions and new changes and such. Especially since the guy who was in charge and actually GOT the balance made in the first place no longer works at the company that made the game.

    So my point is that the Super to Super Turbo comparison is very invalid, OJ. The circumstances by which the games came about (HDR from ST and ST from Super) were night and day.

    - James
    So...who's going to make a "Let's Get a New SF2" Signature Thread on Fighting Game Discussion? Apparently, signature threads are the new rage these days.

    Since you so champion ssf2 as the best version I'm surprised you didn't respond to the above quote:rofl:
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • TecmoSuperBowlTecmoSuperBowl Don't look here. Joined: Posts: 423
    Patching or Rebalancing HDR is all well and good for people who already play HDR. But it will do nothing to attract new players into the scene. Same with releasing a 20th anniversary compilation. It sounds great to people who already play SF2, but it won't attract new players.

    Any player getting into the fighting game genre right now will play SF4 over HDR.

    What we need is a new SF2 game that will attract new players. Capcom should remake SF2 from scratch. Give it the Resident Evil treatment.

    Like I said before, the two games can coexist. SF4 for caual players, SF2 for hardcore players.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    Patching or Rebalancing HDR is all well and good for people who already play HDR. But it will do nothing to attract new players into the scene. Same with releasing a 20th anniversary compilation. It sounds great to people who already play SF2, but it won't attract new players.

    I do agree with your point about re rebalancing HDR, all but the hardcore players like us would see no difference, it wouldn't be attracting anybody new to the scene and would just be fan service, but I think a disc based 20th anniversary compilation could attract a lot of lapsed players back to the scene, and could shift a lot of units given the right marketing push from capcom. It would be going after the same player base that HDR was aimed at except on the wider market rather than via DLC.

    I read somewhere before that only about 30% of people who play console games consider DLC when choosing to buy a game. There's a whole untapped market of lapsed players out there and a chance to play quality ports of the games they grew up on against online competition offers a lot of value for money and fun for a 40 or 50 dollar pricetag. I think if it was done well, and supported right it would be a good seller.
    Any player getting into the fighting game genre right now will play SF4 over HDR. What we need is a new SF2 game that will attract new players. Capcom should remake SF2 from scratch

    i don't think a new version of an old game is going to attract anything other than lapsed players to be honest, and wil probably only set the whole situation back in the balance argument, We should build on what we've got, (HDR) which is close to perfect in my book, rather than starting from scratch. To somebody of this gaming generation, who doesn't know any difference between SF2 nd SF4 and isn't likely to care either way, SF4 just has too much going for it versus any lick of paint and spruce up that capcom can give SF2. It's got really attractive graphics, overall depth, current gen technology, and a vibrant and well supportd online community.

    SF2 has it's OG fanbase and it's lapsed players who remember it fondly, any update or re-release that capcom puts out in relation to it could only hope to draw support from those groups, SF4 is going to net all the new fish, that's just unavoidable.
    Like I said before, the two games can coexist. SF4 for caual players, SF2 for hardcore players.

    I do agree that the 2 can coexist, but in it's defence, SF4 isn't just a casual game. I consider myself an SF2 fan over SF4 anyday, but i've spent a lot of time recently playing SSF4, and it's an easy option to dismiss it as casual because of the easy moves, shortcuts, ultras, and the army of scrubs online, but it actually has a LOT of depth and complexity, and a VERY large learning curve if you're playing it right against good players, which none of that stuff really applies to.

    I think each to their own. if you want a stripped down, bare bones, fast, unforgiving, "make a single mistake and you die" fighting game, SF2 is for you, but if you want a more padded out, slightly more forgiving game that's fun and still has a lot of depth going for it SF4 (or specifically SSF4) is perfect.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • GoldenArchGoldenArch Joined: Posts: 389

    I do agree that the 2 can coexist, but in it's defence, SF4 isn't just a casual game. I consider myself an SF2 fan over SF4 anyday, but i've spent a lot of time recently playing SSF4, and it's an easy option to dismiss it as casual because of the easy moves, shortcuts, ultras, and the army of scrubs online, but it actually has a LOT of depth and complexity, and a VERY large learning curve if you're playing it right against good players, which none of that stuff really applies to.

    Agreed.

    It's weird how different the two games are. I actually think that SFIV is the harder game to play. When they say that SF2 is difficult, I think people forget that SFIV has everything that II has with newer mechanics as well.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    Agreed.

    It's weird how different the two games are. I actually think that SFIV is the harder game to play. When they say that SF2 is difficult, I think people forget that SFIV has everything that II has with newer mechanics as well.

    Yeah. They are toally distinct from one another. I won't go into detail cos it's off topic but the complete uselessness of meaty attacks in 4 because of easy reversals and the danger of being punished for masive damage by an ultra from a player whos ass you were kicking up to a minute ago makes it a much slower, more cautious, defensive game. I can't mix the 2, i have to play one exclusively for a while at a time, despite the basics and most of the moves being the same, the ethos of both games are so different that if i try to mix them up i just end up sucking at both. :-(
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I am perturbed in IV that you can't safe jump ryu.

    I'm actually looking forward to 3S since I'm hoping the netcode will actually be better than PS3 HDR.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    "Street Fighter II: The Definitive Collection"

    All of the previous versions of SFII on one disc (WW-HDR), with all of the options available people have been requesting. Programmable training dummies, replays, awesome netcode/online options, unlockable extras (like win quotes, sound options, avatars, dip switches, etc), and of course filters and such to yield the closest reproduction of all of the classics on an HDTV as possible. Worth $40 easily. (Just don't let Backbone anywhere near it.)
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I'm actually looking forward to 3S since I'm hoping the netcode will actually be better than PS3 HDR.

    Oh SH*T- i just saw that this was happening. Excellent!! Third Strike with decent online netcode, i love it. Is there a wishlist thread or any more info anywhere yet? I have been meaning to get into that game for ages, this looks like it might be the perfect opportunity.

    I actually hope they DON'T Go the route of rebalancing it. the SF2 community is still smarting from the whole ST vs HDR argument, the same thing happening to 3s would not be good because a LOT of people love it the way it is.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Oh SH*T- i just saw that this was happening. Excellent!! Third Strike with decent online netcode, i love it. Is there a wishlist thread or any more info anywhere yet? I have been meaning to get into that game for ages, this looks like it might be the perfect opportunity..

    The wislist, strangely enough, is on the SF3 forum.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    The wislist, strangely enough, is on the SF3 forum.

    :rofl:

    I know, amazing right?
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568

    I actually hope they DON'T Go the route of rebalancing it. the SF2 community is still smarting from the whole ST vs HDR argument, the same thing happening to 3s would not be good because a LOT of people love it the way it is.

    I don't mean to troll but this is really ironic...
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I don't mean to troll but this is really ironic...

    Not really, HDR vs ST is a really good example of what would be the most probable outcome of SF3SHDR vs SF3S
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Not really, HDR vs ST is a really good example of what would be the most probable outcome of SF3SHDR vs SF3S
    If the changes were subtle, such as
    • Ryu: no grounded throwable frames in SRK;
    • Ken: can do reversal super, no grounded throwable frames in SRK;
    • Boxer: 2 more recovery frames on kick rush, headbutt and super do less damage, less invulnerability on headbutt;
    • Vega: less damage and priority on wall dive;
    • Fei Long: longer range on rekkas;
    • Chun: less damage on super;
    And such, people would not complain. much of the discussion regarding HDR is that it became a different game. Quite similar, but some characters play completely different (Cammy, Fei, Hawk). If it depended on me I'd only do minimal changes and reduce the damage on all supers, and that was it.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So long as any game play changes made regarding the release of 3S Online are:

    1. In the spirit of preserving and furthering the reactive, dynamic game play. No easier, simplified anything; re-evaluations of weaker Super Arts and meter lengths to make them viable, shrinking and tightening of windows instead of widening them, and so on. Avoiding traps like easier inputs and parry windows help the game to stay competitive and dynamic, difficult but fulfilling. In other words, a good deal of the "ST vs HDR" rebalance debate would not apply whatsoever if there was no attempt to make 3S "more accessible" by simplifying it. All non-game play issues aside, this is perpetually the sticking point of the argument from venerable vets against the relatively new blood who favor the redone version. Focus less on subtracting options (if any), and much more on giving everyone a mix of the most/best possible options. Of course, if Capcom feel that they will make more money by doing such things, that's their choice to make...but considering the admittedly dated nature of the game, and the well-established base already willing to shell out cash for it, I doubt it's going to change too terribly much.

    2. Able to be ignored by having an "arcade perfect" option, with the added benefit of years of learning how to do the online, training, and long-term single player experiences right.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    The wislist, strangely enough, is on the SF3 forum.

    Haha, sorry, i was in work when i posted that. No time to trawl around looking for wishlist threads. Was hoping somebody would link it, but i guess not, i'll just go find it now instead.
    I don't mean to troll but this is really ironic...

    Then don't troll. Seriously though, how is it ironic? The point of putting out a third strike port with online features is to UNITE the community, and get everyone playing together on a single, agreed, best version, not to fragment the community by repeating what we pretty much all agree happened with ST versus HDR. I personally love HDR, but it was a pretty contentious project. ST is a much loved, classic game with a very serious following. HDR alienated a lot of those hardcore, serious OG players and definitely damaged the ST community. Third strike's community of active players are just as hardcore about their game, possibly even more so, so why risk causing the same issues again? It's counterproductive to the point of the game, because nobody will be able to agree on when to stop tweaking stuff. This thread is a case in point. HDR's been out for nearly 2 years and a thread on how it should be tweaked, rebalanced, and messed with some more is still going strong.

    Just leave third strike as it is, and beef up the online experience, or if it's GOT to be tweaked, like Jizzon says, keep it to the basic stuff that more or less everybody can agree on, the stupid bugs, glitches, etc, and don't venture into the same territory as HDR did because that's only going to cause arguments between the two camps regardless of how good a job you do on it, which will result in 2 different games being played by the community instead of 1 game being the agreed standard to take forward.
    Not really, HDR vs ST is a really good example of what would be the most probable outcome of SF3SHDR vs SF3S

    Exactly. Now if you'll all excuse me i'm off to the 3S thread to make some feature requests and warn capcom to leave well enough alone, dammit....
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    "Street Fighter II: The Definitive Collection"

    All of the previous versions of SFII on one disc (WW-HDR), with all of the options available people have been requesting. Programmable training dummies, replays, awesome netcode/online options, unlockable extras (like win quotes, sound options, avatars, dip switches, etc), and of course filters and such to yield the closest reproduction of all of the classics on an HDTV as possible. Worth $40 easily. (Just don't let Backbone anywhere near it.)

    What would be really, really, REALLY cool is if they did something my friend suggested... but it would take WAY too much work. But let's say they made an HDR with an entire "tweak" engine built into it. I mean, hit boxes are just numbers in a database of sorts. It would be cool if they were tweakable via some in game menu, and then if a balance update doesn't work, people will try and tweak it themselves, and a host will host their tweaks and such. It sounds like anarchy, but oftentimes, the "optimal" solution does present itself. Think of RedHat Linux.

    Of course, this is a solution that is WAY impossible. And there is so much more that wouldn't be easy to implement, like changing recovery times, heights, etc. etc. But it would have been cool.

    Also, as a side note, trying to re-rebalance HDR with ideas in this thread is all good and fine, even from just a fantasy "what-if" scenario, but the hard part is that we know the person who made the changes lurks here from time to time. If there really was going to be a TRUE discussion on rebalancing HDR, we need to have the freedom to truly criticize some of the changes put into the game and some of the changes that WEREN'T put into the game. We don't need to be dicks about it, but if we can say things like "the new Chun Spinning Bird Kick was a huge mistake, and needs to be reverted" and "Why the hell is the Stored Ochio Throw still in the game?!?" and not get yelled at, it'd be much easier for a thread like this to exist and to really come up with a concise collection of ways to make HDR even better. People get passionate on Forums, and we aren't trying to sound so emotionally immature when we discuss things, but it happens. So if we try to control ourselves, that would help as well, but at the same time, we have to be forgiving of the occasional "That was the dumbest idea ever!" type comments.

    Again, I've always said that HDR's biggest fault is that it changed too much while changing too little at the same time. If it was changed MORE or changed LESS, it wouldn't have had the split reception that it got.

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Of course, this is a solution that is WAY impossible. And there is so much more that wouldn't be easy to implement, like changing recovery times, heights, etc. etc. But it would have been cool.

    That ends up sort of like Mugen...
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    If the changes were subtle, such as
    • Ryu: no grounded throwable frames in SRK;
    • Ken: can do reversal super, no grounded throwable frames in SRK;
    • Boxer: 2 more recovery frames on kick rush, headbutt and super do less damage, less invulnerability on headbutt;
    • Vega: less damage and priority on wall dive;
    • Fei Long: longer range on rekkas;
    • Chun: less damage on super;
    And such, people would not complain. much of the discussion regarding HDR is that it became a different game. Quite similar, but some characters play completely different (Cammy, Fei, Hawk). If it depended on me I'd only do minimal changes and reduce the damage on all supers, and that was it.

    Except those aren't really balance changes. Alot of casual(i guess?) 3S players want the top tier characters nerfed, and the bottom tiers buffed. Stuff like that will not end up being subtle.

    I like 3S, and if it can have a rebirth that would be awesome. But we all know, that if any balancing happens certain things will snowball and you'll have a repeat of HDR.

    Not that HDR is bad, I like both ST and HDR. Although I dislike them for the same universal reasons too. Truthfully, I'll play any SF, except for WW, CE, and original IV.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
Sign In or Register to comment.