Rebalancing ST Remix

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Comments

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    He could have gotten away with all of his buffs, and kept the lack of throw whiff, and still have been fine.

    I understand Sirlin's apprehension with erring on the side of caution for such a powerful move though. His only new tool is the better chip capability of his dive, really, and that doesn't exactly rocket him up from the bottom.

    His "grab frames" work the same as Gief's, apparently; have you seen the throw boxes for both of them on ST in MAME-rr? You "earn" the extra frames when you piano the buttons during the input windows, which I believe are the same for both characters.

    As far as buffing Hawk other ways goes, did anyone read that list I posted a page or two back...?
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Ok I think looking at hdr's history, bison has only won one tournament ever, and is extremely rare in the top eight

    You can't really look at a list of buffs and nerfs and say wow this character got way more buffs because the number of buffs, you have to look at how significant the buff to the character is

    That's just it, HDR never got a chance to have a whole lot of tournament history and a lot of the best Bison players never seemed to enter many tournies. And all the old school top players just stuck to the characters they always played. Didn't Proffesor Jones win a couple of bigger tournies in HDR in Europe?

    And it's not just looking at buffs on paper, it's from seeing and playing against players like RenoMD who I see put those changes to good use all the time. And not just his buffs but the changes and nerfs to some of his worst match-ups, like Honda. Those little changes on both sides make a big difference in that match-up, which was one of Bison's worst in ST but is much closer to even in HDR.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    If you look at tournament history, then Chun has to be nerfed cos the best players in both Kansai and Kanto are Chun Li players. This is of course a flawed argument, since this means stating Otochun and Nuki do not have a skill difference in relation to other top players. That is also like saying there is no skill difference among US top players (damdai, Afrolegends, Cole, Valle, Ganelon).

    I've talked to Papercut yesterday, he has changed his mind. He stated all he needs is a pearl necklace. Honestly, it made little sense to me why that was important.
  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    giving hawk a pearl necklace around his neck in his losing portrait would balance him perfectly.
  • neweggnewegg MVC3? SSF4AE? Joined: Posts: 60
    this is all fantasy and my personal opinion, if you don't agree, express your own version of how you like it instead .

    i think backbone is not qualified to rebalance ST (they got a few characters right but some of their design philosophy are very flawed)

    unless stated otherwise (like ken/sagat) the following change list are applied to st characters.

    overall design goal

    all super should be more subdue to stay true with the sf2 philosophy instead of the comeback mechanics in sf4.

    super that are well designed in that regard in ST are blanka, guile, fei, sagat, ken, cammy, deejay.
    dictator's super is more powerful than the aforementioned but in ST he has no reversal

    discourage spamming tactics. yes sometimes you can predict and outsmart the opponent but overall the more skillful players (better reaction/counter) should win.

    art - udon graphics have to go. some of the still art like the backgrounds are ok. but they don't have a clue how to do animations / sprites.

    input lag - all console version should be tested with input/display/overall lag

    input motion - you cannot change a HCF motion to a HCB motion or a QCB motion to a SRK motion. you basically alienated all the ST players.
    if you are doing a completely different game like CE -> HF or HF -> ST then it's fine. if you are to _rebalance_ ST then you cannot change input motion like that.

    SPD is not hard. no need to change it at all.
    CW? You can change it to TK motion or HCF. Not QCF.

    ryu - no change. maybe reduce the damage of his super to 80% and his 2nd/3rd mp juggle damage to 90%.

    ken - overall good in hdr. instead of braindead srk juggle i would make juice kick juggle.
    to differentiate juice kick and normal air tatsu, juice kick should lit up the opponent like his fierce dp. that would be crazy fun and not easy to pull off. ken players can go creative with more combo setup. his air tatsu damage is not high to begin with.

    qcb crazy kick should be buffed. right now that move is useless with 16 start up frames and with laughable range compared to qcf crazy kick. change it to have 7 startup and increased stun meter so people can use it strategically for dizzy combo (it won't hit low or far and it won't knockdown, so you have to use it when you know it'll give you the dizzy).

    HCF special RH kick should have longer active frame like n ryu or o ken's far st RH.


    honda - his throw vulnerable throwbox should extend all the way to his MP/HP HHS.
    hurt box of MP/HP HHS should also be slightly bigger.
    make his vertical jump fierce hurt box slightly smaller to evade fb.
    super should be storeable but not oicho
    his push box should be fixed so that he is not so damn difficult to cross up. one of the reason why honda is so tough for non-fb characters is because how hard to cross him up. 95% of the time you are fighting honda from the front. with his jab headbutt and oicho his frontal defense is way too strong.

    chun - reduced damage of her super is good. should either fix or swap her crazy mp throw damage with her hp throw so her option select st mp / mp throw is not as potent.

    blanka - all balls on hit should knockdown. this will make a lot of his worst match up more fair. on the other hand, only a handful of characters can punish his ball on block. that has to change. all characters should be able to punish his ball on block. but it shouldn't be as easy as sim's st fierce/rh. more like ryu's reversal fierce fb timing.

    his st lk should have faster startup so you can play footsies or stop honda headbutt on reaction. right now with 7 frames startup, you can only predict and spam it, hopefully you catch other's footsies startup or stop headbutt by luck. much like fei player spamming st hp.
    electricity should remain 5 button presses or change to 4.

    gief - too many buffs in hdr. for starter motion shouldn't be changed. with the overall nerf to other characters i'll say keep the hdr faster green hand is enough for him. also jab/mp/hp green hand should have different range. maybe give him the better hop too.

    guile - n guile should inherit o guile's st hk. jump lp should last a few frames longer.
    increase the range of hk flash kick but not like in hdr which is way over the top.
    also maybe differentiate all 3 strength of flash kicks a bit more - mk flash kick's first hitbox should extend low and to the right a little further to catch meaty/whiff low attacks, but it should come with a hurt box so the it's not completely invincible and will get beat/trade when you use it incorrectly.

    sim - reduce super's damage. keep his super glitch (no reversal super) but fix his teleport glitch (reversal teleport should not stay in the corner)
    his far low mp change in hdr is good so sim cannot spam it vs guile.
    all long limbs (including air moves) should receive a nerf. either increase counter hit damage received by 15% or stun meter by 30% or a combination of these.
    this is inline to discourage mindless spamming tactics.

    hawk - his jab/mp/hp typhoon should have bounced him back the way exactly like gief. if you use fierce typhoon, you will not be in time for another sako tick. you can do it with jab, and mp timing will be really strict.
    n hawk should inherit o hawk normals and his reversal dp bug should be fixed.

    fei - make his jump 1~2 frames faster to land. extend jump rh 's horizontal hitbox 1~2 pixels.

    deejay - solid as ryu. no change.

    boxer - oh boy.

    super should receive damage nerf like chun and be punishable on block by the whole cast. maybe a really long recovery.
    and when you jump over it, he should finish all the animations so everyone should be able to punish him.

    rush punch - start up animation / roar sound should be ALL DIFFERENT for straight / upper and low rush. so people have a slight chance to react differently.
    low rush knock down is way too good so damage should be reduced to 80%.
    Jab Buffalo Headbutt on block should not push him back so far so it's 95% punishable on block.

    claw - dive doesn't knock down is good change.
    also cross up is HUGE in ST. claw players have brain dead cross up game.
    even top claw players don't know which side they are hitting. that's why claw players are not getting any respect.

    dive should attack on both punch and kick buttons.
    his dive should only hit one side depending on punch or kick.
    imagine his dive hit box split into two. punch will be the forward half and kick the other.

    so claw players have to CONTROL and plan the dive landing zone instead of spamming it mindlessly.

    his standing hurtbox also should be slightly fatter. a lot of combo should work on him as intended.

    claw should not have a easier time shaking out of dizzy (unlike sim). it's hard enough to dizzy him to begin with.


    sagat - hdr version is not bad. juggle tk is debatable. maybe make it more difficult to land like a 2 frame window (similar to claw flip kick juggle).

    dictator - give him a sim teleport?


    just for fun guys. i'm sure capcom doesn't give a damn to their most iconic / successful fighter (not just capcom, but the whole industry).
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Around these parts we don't blame Back Bone Entertainment. We blame David Sirlin. Direct your suggestions to him :rofl:
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    this is all fantasy and my personal opinion, if you don't agree, express your own version of how you like it instead .

    Okay, my attention is all yours. I'll play along.
    i think backbone is not qualified to rebalance ST (they got a few characters right but some of their design philosophy is very flawed)

    Though Backbone could (and should) be held responsible for many of the game's shortcomings, they as a whole weren't responsible for the rebalancing decisions. David Sirlin was ultimately the executor of those decisions.
    overall design goal...all super should be more subdue to stay true with the sf2 philosophy instead of the comeback mechanics in sf4. super that are well designed in that regard in ST are blanka, guile, fei, sagat, ken, cammy, deejay. dictator's super is more powerful than the aforementioned but in ST he has no reversal

    Part of the design in HDR was to turn down the damage (and therefore, a degree of that comeback potential) on most of the supers. If anything, though, the worse ones should be given more direct uses in gameplay applications. You'll have both happier players overall, and a healthier diverse game state. Supers like Boxer's, Ryu's, and Chun's all got weakened, and seriously open up the games of those characters. I do feel that all of them at least have some serious uses now, which is good. Every character being able to use them as reversals now was a nice change.
    discourage spamming tactics. yes sometimes you can predict and outsmart the opponent but overall the more skillful players (better reaction/counter) should win.

    Sagat's fireballs don't recover as fast, nearly all of the hold loops lost range, Claw can't knock down on wall dive, and several characters were given better escape options. T.Hawk even lost his nigh-inescapable throw loop by having a whiff. So what would you say is so bad that it still needs toned down?
    art - udon graphics have to go. some of the still art like the backgrounds are ok. but they don't have a clue how to do animations / sprites.

    If the art would have remained as good as it was in the prerelease versions, on par with the character select portraits, no one would be complaining about it. The sprite art got worked on a budget that was becoming progressively later and strapped. Definitely agree that there should have been more purist options in the game for both graphics and sound, though.
    input lag - all console version should be tested with input/display/overall lag

    Some of that lag is inherent due to the console design and implementation of USB, but if there are ways to reduce that for consoles, I'm totally with you there. Along with prioritizing on the best online experience possible (filtering by ping or region, netcode, spectation, etc), minimizing input delay is crucial to deliver the tightest experience possible.
    input motion - you cannot change a HCF motion to a HCB motion or a QCB motion to a SRK motion. you basically alienated all the ST players.
    if you are doing a completely different game like CE -> HF or HF -> ST then it's fine. if you are to _rebalance_ ST then you cannot change input motion like that.

    Would have been nice to just have some simple option to select the old input styles in Remixed mode, like reusing the ST old character codes or something. Vets would be able to adapt better, and new players wouldn't be put off by the more difficult motions.
    SPD is not hard. no need to change it at all.

    It's much easier for Zangief than it is for T.Hawk without buffering through a normal move first. There's definitely some good reasoning by Sirlin about risk versus reward on this front. Advanced players would be hitting them regardless, and now intermediate players would be able to do them more consistently, which is far less frustrating against an opponent who can rock you with more efficient, easier-to-pull-off moves.
    CW? You can change it to TK motion or HCF. Not QCF.

    Your point about moves like Fei's CW and Cammy's Hooligan is valid too; making them half circles that didn't end in any up direction would have made them harder to really screw up, but take the same amount of input time. Considering how Sirlin opted to change many of the fundamental properties of those affected moves, I'm surprised this wasn't implemented to begin with instead.
    ryu - no change. maybe reduce the damage of his super to 80% and his 2nd/3rd mp juggle damage to 90%.

    His super already got a damage reduction. His juggling strong punches, though, are ridiculous on damage potential, priority, and meter-building capability when coupled with a few short Tatsus. Many people hate his new fake fireball too; I personally like the concept, but it recovers too fast. Gives him an incredible edge against characters he was already ahead on as-is.
    ken - overall good in hdr. instead of braindead srk juggle i would make juice kick juggle. that would be crazy fun and not easy to pull off.he would have a lot more combo with this. his air tatsu damage is not high to begin with.

    Ken's SRK juggle isn't brain-dead; it's a consequence of tagging the move to knock down and connect with the full amount of hits (instead of leaving your opponent just standing there, ready to punish you half the time). Undoing that wouldn't be good for him, I hope you would agree.

    Giving his juice kicks juggle abilities? He'd have another knockdown option (which he doesn't need more of, considering his great cross-up and hold games), and it would be virtually impossible to make just a juice kick air Tatsu juggle without just making all of his air Tatsus do that. Akuma's already got that ability, and since we have three shotos, we might as well keep them as distinct as possible.
    qcb crazy kick should be buffed. right now that move is useless with 16 start up frames and with laughable range compared to qcf crazy kick. change it to have 7 startup and increased stun meter so people can use it strategically for dizzy combo (it won't hit low or far and it won't knockdown, so you have to use it when you know it'll give you the dizzy).

    The only real use I've ever seen it get was to limit pushback after cancelling it off of a normal since its recovery is decent, so yeah, it's still ripe for a bit of tinkering. I'd make it faster by reducing the number of frames right before he hits from 8 to 4, and reduce the very last recovery frames from 5 to 3. It would make the move much better at keeping pressure in your opponent's face, but still be relatively easy to stuff with that projected hurtbox at his leg when you predict or react properly.
    HCF special RH kick should have longer active frame like n ryu or o ken's far st RH.

    The move comes out pretty fast and knocks back (a very rare ability), so you'd have to slow it down to get more active frames. It does good damage on hit, so I'd just make the stun damage line up and be really high, since it would be hard to capitalize on unless you corner your opponent with it. Both hitboxes would have this property (not just the second, as it is now), and I'd extend the second active hitbox just a few pixels outward to catch a few more things.
    honda - his throw vulnerable throwbox should extend all the way to his HHS.

    Having a smaller throwbox, in essence, makes him "heavier," so it does fit him to a degree. I think just widening it a few pixels to the same width as his pushbox (mainly so that T.Hawk would have a better chance against him) would be reasonable though.
    hurt box of HHS should also be slightly bigger.

    Already happened, which breathed new life into his matchups with Fei and Cammy, at the very least. Don't think he needs to be any more vulnerable here.
    make his vertical jump fierce hurt box slightly smaller to evade fb.

    Since it's more easily able to be steered, this really isn't a problem for him. It's a great move already, against both fireballers, and characters like Fei Long who you can bait to punish better than before.
    super should be storeable and oicho not.

    I didn't agree with you on this for the longest time, but now, most definitely. I've never thought leaving his stored Ochio in was a good idea (though the move should get its higher ST stun damage back to compensate if it were to be unstorable).

    His stored super, though...Sirlin thought it went against his basic character design, since he was supposed to be so highly defensive. However, many characters in lopsided matches turtle like crazy before building meter, then once they get it, the entire dynamic changes. Fat Man walking toward you with meter is a great psych tactic, and would help him considerably in many of his underdog matches. The move's already been tweaked to be more consistent, and isn't capable of hitting four times like it was for gross damage in ST, so I would love to see this come back.
    his push box should be fixed so that he is not so damn difficult to cross up. one of the reason why honda is so tough for non-fb characters is because how hard to cross him up. 95% of the time you are fighting honda from the front. with his jab headbutt and oicho his frontal defense is way too strong.

    He's difficult to cross up because he has such good specials to use as reversals, mainly. It's the specials like stored Ochio that need work, not his pushbox.
    chun - reduced damage of her super is good. should either fix or swap her crazy mp throw damage with her hp throw so her option select st mp / mp throw is not as potent.

    Have to disagree with you here. Although her super doing less damage overall is good, it's now not consistent against many characters, and hits for very low damage. Simply reducing the actual super's damage a bit more, but allowing all hits (including upkicks) would have been better.

    Regarding her throw...she already had so much of her stuff nerfed (super damage, knee bash loop, both damage and priority of LL) that reducing her one serious advantage in her footsie game would be too much. I would, however, settle for a point or two less damage, but have that higher damage apply to both throws.
    blanka - all balls on hit should knockdown. this will make a lot of his worst match up more fair. on the other hand, only a handful of characters can punish his ball on block. that has to change. all characters should be able to punish his ball on block. but it shouldn't be as easy as sim's st fierce/rh. more like ryu's reversal fierce fb timing.

    The only time his rolls should knock down is when they dizzy; otherwise, he becomes way too much like E.Honda, especially when also considering the punishment option you suggest. His horizontal rolls shouldn't have a damage penalty; everyone has a way of stuffing them reliably. Increasing the stun damage on his rainbow rolls, though, would be great.
    his st lk should have faster startup so you can play footsies or stop honda headbutt on reaction. right now with 7 frames startup, you can only predict and spam it, hopefully you catch other's footsies startup or stop headbutt by luck. much like fei player spamming st hp.

    It does decent damage, and has truly gross priority on the ground. It's a great move for him, so making it more spammable is probably not a good idea.
    electricity should remain 5 button presses or change to 4.

    Four presses would have been ideal, at least on the fierce button press. The option I mentioned before regarding recycling the old character codes for the ST inputs and windows would address this as well.

    (continued)
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    gief - too many buffs in hdr. for starter motion shouldn't be changed. with the overall nerf to other characters i'll say keep the hdr faster green hand is enough for him. also jab/mp/hp green hand should have different range. maybe give him the better hop too.

    The new SPD motion doesn't change his game at high levels at all though. His hop and lariats really allow him to keep up in matches he had so much trouble with before, like Dhalsim. His crouching fierce is great too against Claw. I would have liked to see more differentiation between his green hands; the range and recovery on the jab version allow him to tick with it a little better than he probably should be able to do, considering his other buffs.

    His greater range on diagonal jumping strong is much better than many people realize; as T.Hawk in HDR, it gives me quite a bit of grief when mixed in with the rest of his arsenal.
    guile - n guile should inherit o guile's st hk.

    Since you would have to give up charge to use it, just like his backfist and standing short kicks, I would be for this. Its damage and priority are well within reasonable limits.
    jump lp should last a few frames longer.

    As-is, you can use it strategically to fake a tick jump-in over a fireball, then throw them immediately instead.
    increase the range of hk flash kick but not like in hdr which is way over the top.
    also maybe differentiate all 3 strength of flash kicks a bit more - mk flash kick's first hitbox should extend low and to the right a little further to catch meaty/whiff low attacks, but it should come with a hurt box so the it's not completely invincible and will get beat/trade when you use it incorrectly.

    I love his new roundhouse FK, but it is funny that it makes some matches more lopsided than before (such as T.Hawk, along with his various nerfs). Still, I wouldn't change its range. Those lopsided matches all have better ways to address character weaknesses than toning down Guile's new toy.

    As far as differentiating the flash kicks, as well as many middle (strong/forward) specials, reducing hurtboxes or extending ranges a touch would introduce some real functionality to them. For Guile, keeping his FKs as close-range reversals and anti-airs is good enough for me; he can't be too tight against the ground game, and his roundhouse version does allow him to escape some cross-ups and corner situations that he couldn't as easily as before.

    If anything, for his forward version, I'd just lose that split-second hurtbox at his head when hit first hit comes online. It would at least allow him to trade better in the air, even if it's on rare occasion.
    sim - reduce super's damage. keep his super glitch (no reversal super) but fix his teleport glitch (reversal teleport should not stay in the corner)

    Damage reduction for his super (and increased vulnerability) already happened. Allowing him to reverse with it is nice, and doesn't break him in the slightest. On the other hand, allowing him to escape more easily from traps that are very difficult to set up against him in the first place is probably a bad idea, considering how powerful Dhalsim is in the right hands.
    his far low mp change in hdr is good so sim cannot spam it vs guile.

    It was all of his low punches, and I definitely agree with you.
    all long limbs (including air moves) should receive a nerf. either increase counter hit damage received by 15% or stun meter by 30% or a combination of these. this is inline to discourage mindless spamming tactics.

    Meh...I'm not too big on counter damage. Decreasing the stun of his long-range pokes would be the extent of anything I'd do, since he has such good normals with solid stun up close (including his drills). Mostly though, I'd give the rest of the cast better tools to handle him (which many already received, like Zangief).
    hawk - his jab/mp/hp typhoon should have bounced him back the way exactly like gief. if you use fierce typhoon, you will not be in time for another sako tick. you can do it with jab, and mp timing will be really strict.

    This sounds great in theory, but with his dive, he'd be able to get back in range for a Sako tick setup from pretty much anywhere. Having input windows similar to Zangief's for the SPDs (where the jab version has the most, and fierce has the least) would make the most sense from a practical standpoint, and that might already be the case.
    n hawk should inherit o hawk normals and his reversal dp bug should be fixed.

    He already received the O.Hawk normals (other than crouching forward, which was surely an accident). The DP reversal bug should have been one of the first things fixed, along with the reversal super glitches.
    fei - just make his jump 1~2 frames faster to land

    Heh, Fei again, everybody! Your changes are the least radical suggestions I've seen on here. I'd just be fine with his short flame kick getting its old, better recovery back (though with a slight damage decrease to compensate, and keep it in line with the stronger versions).
    deejay - solid as ryu. no change.

    I'd shave a startup frame off of his jab MGUs, and give him an extra one on the fierce version. The jab version would allow him to better use it to cancel fireballs and counter with his own, and the fierce version would give him a split second better hope of stuffing something like Claw's wall dives.

    Also, his forward and roundhouse dread kicks being able to go over sweeps almost relegates the short version to obsolescence, so I'd actually either change those back, or decrease the startup time of the short version.
    boxer - oh boy...super should receive damage nerf like chun and be punishable on block by the whole cast. maybe a really long recovery.
    and when you jump over it, he should finish all the animations so everyone should be able to punish him.

    His super did receive a damage nerf, but it is still probably the best in the game. Reducing the damage further wouldn't fix it, though. Adding some kind of recovery at the end would be preferable, if the game's engine would allow for it. And yeah, him being the only one to cut his animation short does seem pretty cheap.
    rush punch - start up animation / roar sound should be ALL DIFFERENT for straight / upper and low rush. so people have a slight chance to react differently.

    The moves come out so fast, it wouldn't matter much, if at all. The only other grunt he has is the same one he uses during his headbutt, which would sound really weird on a rush punch.
    low rush knock down is way too good so damage should be reduced to 80%.
    Jab Buffalo Headbutt on block should not push him back so far so it's 95% punishable on block.

    The move's harder to use as a meaty in HDR, but yeah, it's still really good. I'd shave a few pixels off of the active hitbox, giving it the same priority as his standing rush punches. Wouldn't be a huge game-changer, but it would allow a few more things to beat him once in awhile.

    On the other hand, I'd actually give the fierce low rush its meatier frames back, just to give the move a real use (similar to how his fierce standing rush is the only one that knocks down, just so you'd have a distinct reason to use it).
    claw - dive doesn't knock down is good change.
    also cross up is HUGE in ST. claw players have brain dead cross up game.
    even top claw players don't know which side they are hitting. that's why claw players are not getting any respect.

    dive should attack on both punch and kick buttons.
    his dive should only hit one side depending on punch or kick.
    imagine his dive hit box split into two. punch will be the forward half and kick the other.

    so claw players have to CONTROL and plan the dive landing zone instead of spamming it mindlessly.

    Dive not knocking down is a good thing, agreed. Attacking with punch and kick buttons, though? Why not just mix up different ranges and priorities on the existing (and currently redundant) three punch buttons?
    his standing hurtbox also should be slight fatter. a lot of combo should work on him as intended.

    I think it fits his evasive nature, and that it's not worth risking making him too vulnerable to something else to change it.
    claw should not have a easier time shaking out of dizzy (unlike sim). it's hard enough to dizzy him to begin with.

    This one's news to me. Where did you hear this?
    sagat - hdr version is not bad. juggle tk is debatable. maybe make it more difficult like a 2 frame window.

    I love HDR Sagat. His juggling knees are potent, and very satisfying to land. Making the input window tighter? Nah.
    dictator - give him a sim teleport?

    And here all this time, I thought you were being serious. He already has an evasive move that at least puts him at some risk, so a teleport would be way over-the-top for him.
  • neweggnewegg MVC3? SSF4AE? Joined: Posts: 60
    jizzon, i specifically said my change list should be applied to ST characters, not HDR characters.

    have you tried using honda dummy in training mode? his push box is exactly why he's so difficult to cross up with.

    a successful cross up is defined as follows:
    opponent has to block backwards.
    if opponent is crouching, cross up should be a meaty hit - so you cannot jump too far to the right (even though it would hit a standing opponent) otherwise cross up will whiff on crouching opponent and you will get thrown

    jab headbutt and oicho only comes into play when you screw up your safe jump timing.

    the argument "top player would have been able to pull off SPD regardless of the motion anyway" is obviously invalid. even top players screw up SPD more often than FB just because FB motion is easier.
    the screwed up SPD motion makes gief crouching SPD possible, which is a ridiculous buff.

    regarding juice kick and different animation / sound for rush punches - i thought we shouldn't take into account how difficult to implement the changes. this is a fantasy thread after all.

    the only honda player that can vert jump over fb in a somewhat consistent manner is kusumondo. that's why i think his hurbox could use a few pixel trimming.

    cutting blanka lk startup time doesn't make it spammable - that move has a long recovery time and is not chain cancellable.
    otoh, balrog's st lp is a perfectly spammable move against headbutt.

    making balls knockdown on hit doesn't make it the same as honda headbutt. honda headbutt is safe on block. balls aren't.
    again, even if they behave similarly, that shouldn't make yours a valid counter argument.

    sim without reversal super in ST is still S-tier.
    I believe reversal teleport is the hardest reversal to pull off in ST. Negative edge doesn't work. Only 3 P, no 3P/3K os like gief. It is a few degrees harder to pull off than reversal throw and much much more difficult than reversal DP with piano and negative edge.

    i have no solid suggestion for cammy and dictator. that's why i put a question mark at the end.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Many of the changes you suggested were exactly what happened from ST to HDR, so you're talking about rebalancing ST, not "ST Remix" then. You seemed to jump back and forth (like Chun's section specifically referencing HDR changes), so I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

    Never have a problem crossing up Honda, at least when he misses his reversal. What are you using that fails on him? You're really saying that it's more difficult to cross him up with a safe jump, and yeah, that is harder. It should be, against the most defensive-natured character in the game, don't you think?

    The argument regarding top players using 360 motions is that they will pull them off consistently (not perfectly). Making the motion the same half-circle, but allowing something besides just the up direction to be used doesn't affect players who could pull it off consistently. OTOH, giving the ability for players who were having trouble performing it consistently a better chance of doing so allows them to compete more favorably than they would have otherwise.

    Please show a video or give a specific in-game account of a single instance where Gief's new motion has broken his game open by allowing him to pull off an SPD in any situation where he couldn't have before.

    This may be a "fantasy thread," but it's really about a feasible rebalance, however unlikely that is to occur. Otherwise, we'd just be going on about adding characters, entirely new moves, and all sorts of things that aren't really about a rebalance.

    Honda received a great buff to that move in HDR; it's one of the few things that seems to be universally agreed upon as a favorable change, and it works well for him. Why would you do it differently? Moreover, I've played against plenty of US N.Honda players in ST, and many of them float over fireballs with his version of the move just fine.

    There are plenty of moves that are spammable that aren't chain cancellable. Hell, look at most of Claw's ground game. Blanka's standing short does really good damage for a light poke, and has phenomenal priority, so yeah, making it faster would be risky (and giving it a greater chance to be spammable). Most of Blanka's ground pokes have good range, but aren't particularly fast, so that falls right inline with his move set.
  • neweggnewegg MVC3? SSF4AE? Joined: Posts: 60
    yes, applying my changelist to ST would be my version of the "HDR".

    if you do not understand why honda's push box make it harder to crossup, then you don't really understand the game engine.
    i could capture some hitbox pictures and put some markers to explain it, but it would be a lot of work...


    notice that using deejay, it is never difficult to cross up the entire cast. ken or cammy however, is a different story.

    if you are using one of those characters with a small cross up hitbox and have no problem crossing up honda (that it wouldn't whiff if he's crouching), then you have mastered the jumping distance. or you could be playing against mid level players who couldn't punish a messed up cross up. it could be either case.


    well then you refined the word spammable. in your context, every move is "spammable". continuously pressing ryu's st fierce in your definition is spammable.

    you cannot use that definition to argue against cutting blanka's startup time.
    note that blanka players are already "spamming" st lk today.


    I think I have voiced my opinions on the SPD motion. i have nothing else to add.

    you cannot mix black & white vs grey area.

    obvious adding new characters and new moves are much harder than changing hitbox and frame data (black & white), you are too fast to conclude that making juice kick juggleable and changing startup animation / sound for rush punches are "difficult".i believe common sense would think otherwise.

    why do you think that it is outside of the scope or too difficult? are you a programmer with source code of HDR? udon already redrew all the sprites for HDR. how is it difficult to include three difficult startup animation for rush punches?

    on the same note, i would like to use a different set of startup sprites for claw's dive and sky high claw as well.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    My favorite part is how you claim something, then when addressed or questioned directly about it, resort to recharacterizations of the argument. Are you into politics?
    if you do not understand why honda's push box make it harder to crossup, then you don't really understand the game engine.
    i could capture some hitbox pictures and put some markers to explain it, but it would a lot of work...

    Talking down to someone without even answering or addressing the question in the first place is sophomoric. We both know exactly how cross-ups work.
    well then you refined the word spammable. in your context, every move is "spammable". continuously pressing ryu's st fierce in your definition is spammable.

    You can spam anything; good players will only spam what works well in a match. Making a move that already works well faster? It's risky. Blanka's standing short is good, so making it faster (and thereby potentially more spammable, again), is probably a bad idea. It's not the worst of ideas; I just don't think it's a particularly good one.

    If you have a case to make to counter this, or anything else, then make it in the context of the game. If you read through this entire thread, you'll see plenty of instances of people getting heated, and you'll also see plenty of interesting ideas come out of it.
    I think I have voiced my opinions on the SPD motion. i have nothing else to add.

    You should have stated "nothing to add," because the word "else" implies you added anything substantial in that regard in the first place. Again, you didn't directly address anything specific, and now you want to drop it. No one learns anything when people do this.

    I countered your first point directly regarding how the new motion doesn't affect him at any high levels of play. You simply stated that was wrong with nothing but an indirect opinion/dismissal, and that by being able to SPD out of a crouch that it is somehow more abusable in HDR. When asked to provide a single example, you come back with "I've spoken my peace?"

    Education begins with an idea, and it continues with proof. Show us the proof so we can all learn from it.
    obvious adding new characters and new moves are much harder than changing hitbox and frame data (black & white), you are too fast to conclude that making juice kick juggleable and changing startup animation / sound for rush punches are "difficult".i believe common sense would think otherwise.

    When you dismissed the intent of this thread with "i thought we shouldn't take into account how difficult to implement the changes. this is a fantasy thread after all," you threw all assumptions about your common sense out the window. It really doesn't help when you don't directly address criticism at all.

    If you read over this thread, you'll see we are in full agreement regarding the fact that changing existing move properties is by far the most feasible way to tweak the game.

    I disagreed with your different animations and "roars" on Boxer's different rush startups not because they'd be difficult to implement, but because they'd be impractical due to the extreme speed of the moves. He already has different animations between them, so do you think creating an entirely new frame for several different startups would really change anything? Should we program some other sound, or rip one off from another move or character? It's not like Gief's kick lariat in HDR, where you have many more frames to work with to react (and even then, the sound doesn't help much).

    Did you even read my response to Ken's juice kick juggles before you replied...?

    Common sense, knowledge, attention to detail, and vision. What it's all about.
  • neweggnewegg MVC3? SSF4AE? Joined: Posts: 60
    sorry if i come off as a jerk in a heated discussion.

    i just cannot stand anything mentioned that is besides the points.

    you can say the animations wouldn't help people to react to them differently (which i disagree *) without mentioning that it is hard to implement (which isn't true).

    [* luckily i can give you an example. deejay players would do cr. fierce to fake throwing a maxout. ryu players with a standing strong. why didn't deejapy players use cr jab instead? or ryu players with a st rh? i argue that with visual/audio clue it is much easier to defend against boxer's whiff upper into grab]

    or you can say st lk with reduced startup frames is too good for other reasons (but not because it's spammable, because people are spamming it now).

    I said SPD isn't hard, I didn't say it is easy.
    spd motion wouldn't matter in high level play? you mean execution doesn't matter in high level play?
    because if the easier motion makes newbie's life easier, it certainly makes top player's life easier as well.
    is there a difference between 3 buttons lariat vs 2 buttons lariat vs 1 button macro lariat?
    which one is easier to pull off as a reversal in the heat of a battle?
    I find it hard to get that idea across without gathering youtube videos as evidence.
    If there are a lot of HDR footage and it is easy to find an example I would do that.

    It is the same mistake that backbone / hdr designer made when they decided that hawk's corner loop is too good because at high level everyone can do it like throwing a fireball.

    But I think what I said above sufficed.

    Anyway, I apologize if I offended you.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    For Boxer, the thing is, what animations would you use for the initial startup frames that are both different, and look natural? My point was that he already does have different animations while he's dashing, so either recycling old or drawing new ones to replace those of his startup would look odd, and not be of a large enough benefit to do so.

    I understand all about using normals to look like fake fireballs, or to do things like feint giving up your charge. The difference to react to those as bait moves, versus Boxer's rush (one of the fastest, most formidable strikes in the game) is a fairly wide gap.

    Moreover, is it really that guessing game which makes him so powerful, or is it how fast, strong, and repeatable his moves can be?

    You're using a slippery slope argument regarding the SPD motions. Of course execution matters; I'm not advocating making it any better or faster than Sirlin did. What I'm saying is that the difference in execution between the old and new motions at high levels of play matters so little that it's not even a factor.

    Gief's 360 was always easier to hit than Hawk's due to both its range and his number of prejump frames being greater. The most common way people did his old motion was to do a half-circle, than end with up. His new motion does the exact same thing, except that it allows for you to end with something more practical, like up-back, or forward. He's not shaving off precious reaction frames to a degree that makes the move more powerful, nor able to come out in positions it wouldn't or couldn't have before.

    Now with characters like T.Hawk and Fei Long, their new command inputs for Typhoon and CWs changed the effectiveness of the moves to such a degree that the designer thought they needed compensated for (by way of nerfing, really). Clearly, there is something to be said for how execution plays a role.

    For T.Hawk's corner loop...yeah, that's a sticky subject. On the one hand, his 360 is definitely tougher to pull off consistently without tricks in ST than HDR...but of course, getting that whiff completely changed his game. Making that sick loop easier would have been a bad idea, but since the direction went to make him better all-around to compensate, I don't think he got nearly enough. It's the main sticking point for me wishing there were still old characters to use, honestly.

    We could have one T.Hawk with a throw whiff and multiple dives, longer-ranged pokes, and/or more damage on normals, and another more or less just as he was in ST, with the throw loop still intact (and a debugged Rising Hawk, finally). We could also have a Claw with no knockdown dive and a good reversal, and an "old" version that could still knock down with the dive, but would be much easier to get in on before he could get them set up.

    As far as offence goes, don't sweat it, man. We all tend to get worked up over things we feel strongly for. No worries.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Question: if gief/hawk do a spd in ST, they have to have up in there right?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • bkfst_sausagebkfst_sausage ST / SRK2k3 OG Joined: Posts: 2,802
    Question: if gief/hawk do a spd in ST, they have to have up in there right?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    Yes.
    PSN: M1X4H < click it!
  • PointBreak91PointBreak91 Custom costumes for SFV please Cap Joined: Posts: 666
    Hence why if you play this game on Live right now, in like 4 person rooms, you'll see the two grab bros dominate with common streaks of like 8 or more. That's if the Honda auto-fire pad guys don't crash the party. True story.
    twitch.tv/nyc_vf
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    Unless I'm one of the grab bros, in that case, I'll have way more then just 8 win streaks. true story bro.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    So that's the risk in ST that doesn't exist in hdr basically.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Question: if gief/hawk do a spd in ST, they have to have up in there right?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

    Well yeah. You need to perform at least 3/4th of a circle in order to get the command grab, so no matter which way you start the motion, there will be an up-motion in there. Preferably you do it early in the motion to avoid jumping while attemping tick throws.

    HDR drastically made this move easier by allowing you to do forward or back, then half circles, allowing for much easier standing command grabs and tick throws.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    How many times in higher-level matches in ST or HDR do you see Zangief dropping his SPD accidentally, though? Where do you see him pulling off his 360 throws when he couldn't have before? His other tools to get in better and counter are what have made him much better.

    T.Hawk's was a much more noticeable change though. Could you imagine a T.Hawk with that motion and no whiff? Yes, of course, it's easy (and fair) to argue that since it was the core of his game, it should have just been left alone. But wow, imagine some Sako ticks with the new motion and no whiff, especially against a more balanced cast of opponents.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    You occasionally see high-level players drop the command grab. But making the motion easier didn't really bother me.

    T.Hawk's changes were pretty drastic. I totally agree with having a whiff animation for the command grab. I don't think you should ever have a risk-free special or super with no whiff animation at all, including Honda's ochio and all grab supers.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Risk versus reward on grab supers...they don't really give the characters that have them any kind of advantage they wouldn't have had without them, unlike the other supers in the game. It's more like they're just bonus damage for doing what you do normally once you get to that point. Because of this, I don't feel like giving them whiffs (at least to burn the meter off) would be a good idea. I definitely understand where you're coming from, though.

    In the case of Honda's Ochio throw, at least not having the ability to store it would mean you'd introduce risk by having to temporarily give up the charge for his other reversal moves. Since it's not readily repeatable anymore, I think that would be enough to keep it potent, but balanced. I would give it back its old higher stun damage though. Frankly, I'm still in disbelief that stored Ochio was left in the game at all.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Being able to do twice as much damage off a tick setup is a pretty big advantage. Although, since only the very best players are able to pull that off consistently, I think it's fair. I just strongly dislike the idea of being able to do a move, any move, without any type of risk. It just doesn't make any sense from the perspective of a game designer. Same concept should be given to throws as well. There should be a whiff animation for poorly timed or spaced out throws.

    I think everybody universally agrees that stored ochio is cheap. Even Honda players admit that it's a cheap move. Of course these are considered bugs in the code and not designed by the developers. Same goes for stored supers. Imagine if Chun didn't have that ability. She'd definitely drop in the character rankings.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Non Honda players get way more upset about stored Ochio than they should, it really doesn't come into play that often. The fact that you can still negative edge it is much more important (and fair, IMO, since he now always bounces away from his opponent). It rarely comes into play, I'd gladly trade it to have his Super storable again, or heck even to have his Super safe on block. At least that would help him in his hardest match-ups, especially since it isn't punishable on hit anymore (why the heck was it ever in the first place? Talk about bad design).
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I believe eltrouble is correct about the SPD motion. Gunze did drop it in SBO finals, for instance. As for other commands, like chickon wing, we've found out it has some unusual input, plus the fact that kara-cancel period in Fei's towards+RH is much shorter. But Sirlin did not know about it. A few commands, such as Tiger Knee and Head Press, have an unusually short period for pressing the button. Well, I guess now it is too late.

    I do have trouble with Ken's quarter-circle-down crazy kicks in ST. Those, and Gief's Green Hand, do come out several times when people don't want them.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    I believe eltrouble is correct about the SPD motion. Gunze did drop it in SBO finals, for instance. As for other commands, like chickon wing, we've found out it has some unusual input, plus the fact that kara-cancel period in Fei's towards+RH is much shorter. But Sirlin did not know about it. A few commands, such as Tiger Knee and Head Press, have an unusually short period for pressing the button. Well, I guess now it is too late.

    I do have trouble with Ken's quarter-circle-down crazy kicks in ST. Those, and Gief's Green Hand, do come out several times when people don't want them.

    I think the difficulty of these motions help reinforce how difficult it is to perform consistently at a high-level during stressful situations. Whether or not increased difficulty in special/super input is a good thing or not, can be debated forever.

    ST does have some odd inconsistencies with regards to timing shifts. Gotta give Sirlin props for trying to standardize that system.

    I think the changes made to Ken's weird crazy kick motions were excellent. Made things simpler to pull off without having to worry about accidentally getting a special when all you wanted to do was walk up cr.fwd. Green hand motion tends to be annoying to certain Gief players who are used to doing the circle motions in the forward direction, and accidentally get the green hand....which is a pretty colossal execution error.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Even if Gunze dropped the ST 360 motion once in the heat of the highest-level tournament play, it doesn't validate how much better the new "360" motion has made Zangief. Though it would likely happen very slightly less frequently, the new motion could still be screwed up. In addition, there aren't any real-world applications that the new motion adds to Zangief's game that he didn't have before.

    Also of the camp that loves the input changes to Ken's crazy kicks, and Gief's new Banishing Flat motion (though the SRK motion would have been preferable).

    Speaking of Gief's Banishing Flat, how would you rebalance it to make the other strengths of the move actually worth using?

    I'd make the jab version travel a slightly smaller distance, since as it is with the better recovery (18 frames), it seems a bit too easy to tick with. His strong and fierce versions would lose the same hurtbox at his head, for consistency.

    The strong version would travel the same distance it always has, and keep the old recovery (22 frames). It would, however, do more damage (from 22 to 25). Coupled with his high defense, this would allow him to also trade favorably against nearly every ground move in the game if he's willing to risk the slightly longer recovery.

    The fierce version would amp this up even more, allowing him to do another three points of damage (from 25 to 28) and travel slightly farther than the strong version. As a very powerful swing move, though, it would also bear another four recovery frames (from 22 to 26). It would be less useful up-close than the other two (unless your opponent is brain-dead predictable), but with the best range and damage, it would be a solid punishment option in a few places.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    I like the idea of having jab travel a short distance, but it has the shortest start and recovery time. Increase start+recovery for each subsequent version, but also have them travel farther. Basically if you're able to read the fireball, you could green hand through it and SPD, but it would have to be more of a read than a reaction type thing. The jab version might find better use at the mid-range, or even be able to do it in combos. It would have to be minus frame advantage on hit and block, but the surprise factor might allow you to sneak in an SPD for gimmicks. Just a theory.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    If you had a BF that both started up and recovered slower, it would be a bit too easy to bait, I think. Regardless, we agree that differentiation makes the most sense.



    Some thoughts on Boxer, and his TAPs...

    Sirlin wanted to give him some kind of buff (focusing on his two TAPs), but nothing worked out in the scheduled time frame. Seems like a good place to explore, doesn't it?

    So I got to thinking: Who really charges punch TAP past the first few levels? You're giving up his holds, headbutt reversal, and much of his range to do so.

    What if the punch TAP charged faster once you got past level 2?

    Normally, level 1 takes 30 frames (with no frameskip/turbo), and level 2 takes 120 (a difference of 90 frames). Level 3 doubles the previous amount to 240, 4 doubles again to 480, and 5 once more to 960. From that point on, each progressive level takes an additional 480, including Final which takes 2400 total frames to charge up.

    For a tweaked punch version, we'll instead use that difference of 90 as a base, instead of the 120. Levels 1 and 2 would remain the same, but 3 would only take 210, 4 would be 420, and 5 would need 840. Using the same scale of increase, that would make the Final TAP require only 2100 frames.

    Now yeah, that's not much of a difference; honestly, you'd usually see it around level 3 and 4. It would, however, give you at least one more reason to use the punch version instead. In some matches where you really turtle, this could help. It's also a way to buff Boxer reasonably, which is nice.



    The other thought was to give him the lower-body invulnerable startup of the Hyper Fighting TAPs. Considering how oppressive he already is, even in HDR, though, it's probably a bad idea.

    On the other hand, if we were to consider bringing back the old ST characters, this would be perfect for O.Boxer. Since he has no super and can't neutral fierce "float" over fireballs, this would give him a good way to keep up. The move is still vulnerable before he connects, so it wouldn't replace his headbutt reversal.

    O.Boxer also can't work his charges as well as N.Boxer since he has no low rush moves, so this would allow him to string a powerful offense together in a unique way. I like the thought of his more frequently-used kick version having the invulnerability through level 2, just like in HF, and his punch version to get the same properties for anything above that (level 3 and up). At least N.Boxer can still use his super with kick buttons; O.Boxer really limits his options if his punches are locked up in a charge, so it seems to be a fair trade.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    It isn't so much as wanting to give boxer a buff, it was more "Here is this fun new thing he should have, it is ok if it kind of sucks", much like bison fake slide.

    EDIT: Also, the frame data on turn punches doesn't change as it goes up in levels, so many very good boxers charge it up to level 4 and 5, it is especially good even if it trades and totally safe on block
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    EDIT: Also, the frame data on turn punches doesn't change as it goes up in levels, so many very good boxers charge it up to level 4 and 5, it is especially good even if it trades and totally safe on block

    The travel speed changes pretty massively though.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    I've been playing around with editing the ST ROM, with some interesting and fun results. Most of the HDR changes were really well thought out, and this thread is proof that people keep innovating when it comes to the classic. If anyone has anything they'd like to try out within reason (speed/frame data adjustments, damage, sizes or appearances of hitboxes), I'm willing to test it out.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Well, he generally made the tiniest changes possible, and the changes are so tiny that most people who complain about hdr complain about things that weren't even changed, or make factually incorrect statements about development, or just go straight to nirvana fallacy
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So why bait out the hate? Instead, how about addressing the more relevant and interesting part of what I said: We can actually play with and test out many of the rebalancing ideas.

    Today alone, I was able to play with N.Cammy's backfists to make them slightly faster (six frames overall), and it feels just right. O.Cammy's are still slower as before, but the first hit connects as an overhead, so if you land it deep, your opponent has to block high or eat both hits. O.Cammy also got a priority buff on her forward and roundhouse Cannon Drills (since hers are slower than the HDR-tweaked N.Cammy's), and like in CvS2 (and N.Boxer's low rushes), they have to be blocked low or you get a sweep knockdown. It makes O.Cammy slightly slower overall than N.Cammy, but she has a bit more priority on her aerial normals and drills, and now has a refreshing sort of mixup game that's good for her, yet hard to really abuse.

    There's a lot of potential here, and a lot of fun to be had...so who's willing to pitch in?
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    I would rather just have the hdr changes, since it was shown to improve the game, and I am fine with that.

    Cammy is in a fine place in hdr, I don't think having slightly different but probably worse cammy adds much
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    What I'm shooting for is to both have fun experimenting, and to have a "slightly different but probably worse" anybody. If you're not behind that, why are you even in this thread to begin with?
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Well, why don't you go crazy town then? HDR is pretty good for balance already, why not go a totally different direction?

    More juggles, YES. Regular fei long has easier rekkas, which means all his normals are cancellable? YES. I would support this type of mod for st

    EDIT: Actually I would just do a totally different game that deserves it, like alpha 2/3, but since i have no idea how to hex edit or where to even start, I can't do that
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    There's a lot of potential here, and a lot of fun to be had...so who's willing to pitch in?

    That's cool stuff Jizzon. Was wondering if you can slow down Honda's recovery after a Torpedo? Make it so he recovers slower and/or doesn't get pushed back so far. Not so slow that O.Sagat or Ryu's reversal fireball will hit him, or even Balrog's reversal Rush. And then test Hawk/Zangief/Cammy's options to punish him on recovery.

    Maybe you could have him with the same Torpedo recovery, but doesn't get pushed back very far. So then maybe Zangief or Hawk could do a walkup SPD/Typhoon. The important thing is that he doesn't lose to fireball characters on recovery but can get punished by long range throws. I'd be interested to know if this is possible. Thanks.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Why not just have all headbutts have the same hitboxes/invincibility as the fp one? I like having safe on block moves be good instead
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So you want him to stay closer to the opponent when recovering, but to recover slightly faster so that basically only throws could catch him, right?

    I'm sure that's possible, but I'm still learning quite a bit about how to tinker with the game's engine. Changing velocities of moves is within the scope of what we're doing, but I don't know how to do that just yet.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    So basically all I have to do against fireballers is get them to block one Headbutt and I'm right up in their grill, while just refrain from throwing random headbutts at grounded Zangief and T.Hawks (which no good Honda is going to do anyway, especially against Gief)? I'm all in! ;)

    Plus, if HB left him in command throw range on block then wouldn't that give him a nice negative edge Ochio safe mix up after a blocked HB against everyone else (if he's in Hawk's SPD range he's basically in Ochio range)? I see where you were going with this but I think it would end up being to good vrs everyone else.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I doubt its possible to make torpedo punishable by non fireballers but not punishable by fireballers. Id say take its invincibilty or reduce it, so that non fireballers can pressure his knockdown more effectively.

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  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Having buttslam be his only reversal seems safe enough, and probably a lot more fair since he has to have the down charge
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I never understood why he has an invincible, AA, always safe on block move*. Alongside a "flashkick type" move

    I am unaware if there are any special cases, or if certain characters can actually punish it ever.
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  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Having buttslam be his only reversal seems safe enough, and probably a lot more fair since he has to have the down charge

    Headbutt as a reversal isn't really usefull against Gief or Hawk since it's start up is throwable, you get grabbed long before the active frames come out. Plus it's fairly easy for them to safe jump and/or bait and punish on wake up. They both are in the driver seat once theh get a knockdown, it's the getting in in the 1st place that is so hard for them.

    Sumo Smash was never meant to be a "Flash kick" type move, it hits on the way up (non-HK) in order to go through fireballs and punish the fireball thrower. In fact they removed the HK version hitting on the way up in SSF2 and ST so you couldn't use it as an AA like people started using it in HF (HK would hit on way up and on way down in HF). Although in HF it didn't knock down so you would usually go through a fireball and get one hit, but they were left standing and would just sweep you on the way down, not a fair trade.

    I think giving all versions of HB only HP version amount of invincibilty would be fair. I'd do that and take away stored Ochio, leave the HDR HHS and Ochio nerfs, but give him O.Honda's normals, keep HDR Super connecting for all hits and knocking down, make Super safe on block, and either keep stored Super or HDR jab HB through FBs, one or the other. Maybe make his Super slightly faster as well, I like the idea of Honda basically being screwed against fireballs until he gets Super, then he gets his one chance to get in and do damage.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    You also need to look at the matchup from the pov of characters like fei and cammy too. They don't have command throws to just defeat torpedo.

    Well I only called it a flashkick type move because it requires down charge and goes up with the ability to hit people. I feel that making that a stronger reversal would be more fair than leaving torpedo like it is.

    The only thing I don't like about HHS is how much damage it can do on chip when meaty.

    Actually mentioning fei, honda's and guile's hit reels could use some adjusting, so rekkas combo more uniformly against them standing.
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  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Jab headbutt is still good vs gief, come on man.

    Oh also lk and mk buttslams are still good as anti air, so no clue on that one.

    I think farther range rekkas like in hdr would be nice, so you don't have to adjust hitreel at all, unless hdr has the same issues.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    What about my suggestion then of making all the HBs have the HP version's invincability? Or maybe the jab has what is now the HP version's while the other two have none?

    HHS does good chip damage on meaty but almost everyone can reversal it (that's why I usually do safe jump, cr.Lk, combo into HHS for chip, a little less damage but its safe).

    By the way Balrog can sometimes punish a blocked HB. It also leaves him in weird positions and vulnerable in the corner sometimes and also sometimes if it's blocked meaty on wake up.


    Edit: as AA jab headbutt is usefull vs Gief but you said as reversal. As reversal SPD if timed right will grab him everytime. It can be used against ticks, but most good Giefs safe jump into ticks on wake up vrs Honda.

    I know LK and MK are both still good AA's but I don't think that was there main intended purpose. I don't know how to make them still good vrs fireballs without being good reversals/AA.
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Why not just have all headbutts have the same hitboxes/invincibility as the fp one? I like having safe on block moves be good instead


    I'm not a big fan of having all Torpedoes with the same hitboxes/invincibility as the Fierce, because the problem is not the startup. The problem is the recovery. Or rather the "safe-on-blockness". And I'm usually ok with safe on block moves too, like Balrog's Low Rush. But Balrog doesn't dominate non-fireball characters the way Honda does.

    If we modify Honda's recovery so that Zangief/Hawk get a free reversal 360, and yet Honda's safe against reversal fireballs, then that's a win-win for everybody IMO (except fireball characters, but they already dominate Honda anyway so that's fair). As for Cammy, Fei, Bison and Blanka, I'm not as worried about them as I am about Balrog. Since he has the fastest attack in the game (Straight Rush, actually throws are faster, but the Rushes are the fastest outside of SPD range), I'm worried that Balrog will get a free hit on Honda after a blocked Torpedo. That would be unacceptable cuz Honda and Balrog are pretty evenly matched up and that match shouldn't change.

    ST Wiki says Balrog's Straight Rush has 5 frames startup, this is faster than any fireball, faster than Bison's PC, faster even than Blanka's Rolls. So if we make onda's recovery 4f after a blocked Torpedo (meaning the opponent has 4f after blockstun to do something while Honda recovers), then Zangief gets a free reversal SPD cuz Honda is close enough. And Hawk can also get a free reversal Typhoon (but Honda will be out of range for an Ochio because his white throw box will be slightly bigger, which means everyone can throw Honda from slightly farther out)

    As for other non-fireball characters, Fei and Cammy will actually benefit from Honda's proximity cuz they're not exactly trying to stay away from Honda. It's Honda who is trying to stay away from them (if possible). Usually if Fei or Cammy get too close, a well timed Torpedo will push them back out again and reset the situation. But not anymore, he's not running away from Fei and Cammy anymore. The only characters to maybe not benefit from this are Blanka and Bison. Bison prolly has better options to counter-chip Honda than Blanka, but Blanka can at least jump on Honda and stuff any non-Torpedo anti-airs that Honda has.

    I think this is a good idea because it hurts Honda against non-fireball characters and it helps him against fireball characters (by leaving him closer to them after a blocked Torpedo). But at least this helps Zangief and Hawk rather than leaving the status quo as it is, and it keeps Cammy and Fei close to Honda where they want to be (mostly), and it doesn't hurt his other matches vs Balrog, Vega, Sim, etc (at least I don't think it does). Most other ideas I've heard for balancing Honda only help one or two non-fireball characters while leaving Honda the same vs fireballers (eg nerfing Honda's Torpedo hitbox so that Zangief's Lariat always beats it, doesn't help anybody else tho).

    Another bonus of this is that safejumping Honda doesn't eliminate his capacity to do reversal Torpedo, but now if Zangief or Hawk safejump him, he will have exactly the same options as Balrog.

    But obviously this is only theory fighter, and even if it sounds good on paper, we would have to see it in action before we can say if it's a good idea or bad idea. And I'm not saying this will fix Honda, it's only the starting point, but if it works well, then we can look at how else to buff/nerf Honda based on this IMO.

    So you want him to stay closer to the opponent when recovering, but to recover slightly faster so that basically only throws could catch him, right?


    I'm sure that's possible, but I'm still learning quite a bit about how to tinker with the game's engine. Changing velocities of moves is within the scope of what we're doing, but I don't know how to do that just yet.

    Thanks bro.


    I think giving all versions of HB only HP version amount of invincibilty would be fair. I'd do that and take away stored Ochio, leave the HDR HHS and Ochio nerfs, but give him O.Honda's normals, keep HDR Super connecting for all hits and knocking down, make Super safe on block, and either keep stored Super or HDR jab HB through FBs, one or the other. Maybe make his Super slightly faster as well, I like the idea of Honda basically being screwed against fireballs until he gets Super, then he gets his one chance to get in and do damage.

    Totally agreed with all of this.

    Actually mentioning fei, honda's and guile's hit reels could use some adjusting, so rekkas combo more uniformly against them standing.

    Agreed with this too, Honda needs to be slightly easier to hit and throw IMO.
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