Rebalancing ST Remix

1495052545565

Comments

  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    On Chun Li's SBK changes:

    I don't know, James; I like the idea of widening the utility of a move set that people only ever use one of. Chun's ST short SBK was definitely useful in a pinch, and I miss it terribly. The forward and roundhouse versions were damn near worthless though, so good riddance. On the other hand, the concept we were presented with in HDR to replace them was decent, but the implementation seems...lacking. All three versions are far too similar, slightly too slow and way too risky 90% of the time.

    Were the O.Chun versions so unbalancing for her that they weren't even considered as replacements? They can knockdown on startup, but it's not invulnerable at that point; they're slow relative to the upkicks and trade more often than not since you basically have to be right on top of her for her initial hit to connect. The relationship would be similar to that of Honda's butt slams and headbutts (but without the potential abusiveness of his jab headbutt). Ultimately, in a dream world, I'd love to have a version of Chun with O.Chun's short SBK, and a slightly faster HDR SBK on forward. Roundhouse...well have fun with that one.

    There's no reason anyone here should be walking on eggshells about balance changes; just be respectful, and explain what it is about a change (or lack thereof) that you find lacking somehow.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    How about this: short is for defense, and it's O. Chun's short SBK (honestly, I'm not too familiar with it), forward is for predicted anti-air and anti-Shoryuken, and roundhouse is for advancing and avoiding fireballs. So the forward version would be pretty much the same as it is now, but her defensive hitboxes wouldn't extend when her offensive hitboxes are out, but only while she is on the way up. For roundhouse, the non-invincible grounded hitboxes would need to be moved up a little bit and the first airborne frames would need to be higher to give her full fireball invincibility, and 3 frames would need to be removed from her recovery to make it safe on block. Maybe add an extremely small offensive hitbox to her recovery animation on roundhouse that does only 1 damage on hit, but causes enough pushback that she would be just outside of her throw range on Sagat, but within Dhalsim's throw range. So, between 80 and 89.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    In response to the last couple of posts, i think what we got in HDR with ken's 3 different strength dragon punches being useful in specific situations would have been good for chun and many others. he has 3 different moves, and for the most part you've got to use the right one for the right situation, and for a greater payoff you take a greater risk if you mess up or get it wrong.

    Fierce SRK = great damage, startup, and stun but very easy to get punished if you whiff it or use it wrong
    Strong SRK = Better move properties, invincibility, etc, but still dangerous if you get it wrong
    Jab SRK = short range, not huge damage, but an excellent reversal and a fast recovery.

    More variety in the properties of differerent strength special moves would have been great, to encourage more thinking on the fly about which one to use. More could have been done in that department with quite a lot of the characters in Remix, including chun. Dictator's stomps and devil's reverses were crying out for some variety in them, but that would have probably been seen as another unneccesary buff to an already buffed character.
    What would be really, really, REALLY cool is if they did something my friend suggested......made an HDR with an entire "tweak" engine built into it

    I don't think putting creative control into the hands of the masses, as in your tweak engine suggestion is always a good idea. I've never been a fan of dip switches, or user definable versions of games. Sure you can get some good results bubbling to the top, but for every good code fork of linux out there there are tons of bad, buggy versions of it. I think opening up something that is so precariously balanced as street fighter is to the community would just give us loads of street fighter clones that would be fighting for players from the same player base, diluting everybody's competition across the board, and i bet 90% of people doing the tweaking wouldn't have the restraint to resist buffing their favourite characters up significantly because they felt it was justified, or wouldn't have the across the board character knowledge to be able to retain a decent balance.

    I remember my favourite arcade (r.i.p.) around 1992 or 1993 when all the cracked Korean CE boards had flooded the market and there were ten different CE machines with different rules and crazy air fireballs and different clock speeds, and loads of ridiculous features. Nothing was balanced, and nobody was on the same page. I hated all of those clones, and It was such a breath of fresh air when capcom released Hyper fighting and all the players in my local scene re-unified and came back to playing on the same version.

    I think creative control should stay with capcom on street fighter, so there's one definitive version of a game that's balanced by people who know what they're doing (more or less) but i sometimes wish they had a more thoughtful attitude and put more care and consideration into their games and were willing to correct their mistakes instead of their whole "ship it and forget it" attitude.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    snip
    I do not believe it has to be that way, nor I believe it would. My example would be Quake 3, which I consider some SF2 version of shooters. They have modded it with Pro-Mode and it was pretty much agreed to be the standard. To this date I still believe it is a much funnier and appropriate shooter than any of the newer "realistic" ones they have released later, in a similar fashion I believe SF2 is much better than any fighter Capcom released ever since. I think it is actually sad that SF2 was not produced by no-name hackers who would just want to obtain a good game instead of a company, who is forced to come up with newer versions for the obvious sake of staying alive as a company.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Both O.Chun and N.Chun's short SBKs can be used to avoid fireballs and such on occasion; the difference between them is that O.Chun's has a four-frame hitbox when she handsprings (frames 14-17) that is small and vulnerable, but knocks down. She also recovers just a bit faster (six frames faster according to the T.Akiba site) than N.Chun does. This was O.Chun's go-to reversal move, so when the developers were originally integrating upkicks into N.Chun's repertoire, they probably took out the knockdown portion of her SBK to reinforce upkicks as her premiere reversal move. Even with the ability to knock down at the start though, the difference in startup times, invincibility, damage, and ability to escape varying situations completely differentiate the two moves.

    For the forward version, adapting the existing short HDR version to be six or so frames faster on startup (with no fluke vulnerability that the current short version has, but the forward and roundhouse versions lack) with a few more active hit frames like the current forward version has (except for the last hit; it's perfect as-is) would be ideal. This would give her less invulnerability at the beginning, so she'd only be able to escape very meaty fireballs or ticks with it, but as a trade-off she'd be able to use it a bit more actively, though not enough to exploit it. Of course, it would still juggle airborne opponents as it does now.

    As for roundhouse...maybe something with only two or three startup invulnerability frames (practically nothing), but a much faster, further travelling arc similar to a lower-to-ground shoto juice kick. It would hit like the kicks of her ST versions with no grounded knockdown or juggle, but the range and speed of it would allow her to catch characters like Claw and Sagat off-guard during some of their best tricks. It would be much worse as an escape move though, since such range and speed would otherwise be terrible for the likes of Zangief and T.Hawk.

    And that's just one of the Chun Li debates...her flip kick, knee bash, kick mash, air SBK, and super all got some really debatable changes that should be reviewed in-depth. Don't get me wrong; there is no "perfect" answer for her, and everyone responds to changes differently. Hell, I would have averaged the damage of her strong and fierce throws together and made them the same instead of having the strong version be arbitrarily better. Sirlin shouldn't be faulted for trying, as he did a great job with many of the cast. That shouldn't make every single decision made in HDR above criticism, though. (Ultimately, HDR's a fun game to play that accomplished his design goals though, so good job overall.) He did further the utility concept within character design, which is the main thing the game could really use more of. I think James had the right idea with the final version of the game needing a few iterations to iron everything out properly. As a tangent, if any potential 3S redoing involves the same concept of maximizing the utility of the existing game space (while monitoring carefully during the early stages for abusiveness), and without "dumbing anything down," there wouldn't be anything major enough to threaten to split the scene in half (at least as much as it would grow it in the first place).

    Now, onto the game ideas. I don't think allowing everyone to tweak the more subtle aspects of the game is a good idea, though it is admittedly a very fun one. There are a lot of subtle dynamics that could easily go out the window, but more importantly, what would the best base reference be in such a game? You think that HDR created a divide...imagine the chaos such a release would beset upon us! Now things like dip switches can add some fun options and variety to more casual matches, so I'm all for those. For ranked matches and tournaments, of course, they'd be strictly off-limits. But options for everyone to switch around hitbox properties and recovery times independently would take away from the creative uniqueness that the game play is set up to represent...no thanks.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    I don't think allowing everyone to tweak the more subtle aspects of the game is a good idea, though it is admittedly a very fun one. There are a lot of subtle dynamics that could easily go out the window, but more importantly, what would the best base reference be in such a game? You think that HDR created a divide...imagine the chaos such a release would beset upon us!

    Yes, this is exactly the point i was getting at. Well put. I'm sure there would be some great games produced out of the ability to tinker with the game engine, but there would be some awful ones too, but the biggest concern for me would be that you wouldn't have a "base reference" as to what the standard would be, and you run the risk of really decimating any chance of having a consolidated, strong community that can get behind a single game with a defined and permanent set of moves and rules that don't change.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Yes, this is exactly the point i was getting at. Well put. I'm sure there would be some great games produced out of the ability to tinker with the game engine, but there would be some awful ones too, but the biggest concern for me would be that you wouldn't have a "base reference" as to what the standard would be, and you run the risk of really decimating any chance of having a consolidated, strong community that can get behind a single game with a defined and permanent set of moves and rules that don't change.

    Isn't that exactly why the mugen community is not held highly around here. Not because they can't make a good game or balanced characters, but because they pretty much don't.

    I do wish HDR had implemented God Fei though.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Mr_AwesomeMr_Awesome Joined: Posts: 157
    The spinning bird kick is a problematic move. There were a bunch of moves in WW that were pretty useless. Most of them were fixed somehow, but not the spinning bird kick. In SFA it was the only move of the old characters that was taken out. I think that either knockdown or multiple hits are the solution. Knockdown is a good universal way to make a move better (sumo headbutt, double knee press, Ryu's tatsumakisenpukyaku, etc.), and I think it's preferable to giving Chun-Li a new combo. Her play style is already so different from how it started... Making it arc is just too much of a change, for my tastes.

    It's a ridiculous situation that Street Fighter II isn't better available in more forms. It's like if the Wii didn't have Super Mario Bros. available. They released that fantastic Street Fighter Alpha Anthology, but they can't do the same for Street Fighter II? Super Street Fighter II hasn't been available since the Playstation 1, and the others, except ST, since the Playstation 2. A collection like the Street Fighter Alpha Anthology with nearly perfect versions in almost their native resolutions and original speeds with no input lag, with dip switches, and a Hyper Street Fighter II mode would be amazing.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Chun's SBK worked great in SuperSF2, they should have just left it alone.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Honestly, I like the new SBK and use it all the time, especially against Fei Long (anti-Flame-Kick) and Sagat (anti-low-Tiger-Shot). The air SBK, on the other hand, either should be pulled out, given some pretty crazy buffs, or put on quarter circle forward.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    Isn't the new air SBK really useful for running away? Like you pogo them then air SBK to create some distance. It also has lots of invincibility frames when landing which makes it really weird to get the timing down for punishing it. I just know it annoys me a ton whenever that happens to me and I try to sweep the landing only to whiff/get punished.
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    They released that fantastic Street Fighter Alpha Anthology, but they can't do the same for Street Fighter II?....A collection like the Street Fighter Alpha Anthology with nearly perfect versions in almost their native resolutions and original speeds with no input lag, with dip switches, and a Hyper Street Fighter II mode would be amazing.

    That was a fantastic collection. I remember thinking when i bought it after being disappointed with hyper SF2, finally, a collection with faithfully recreated ports, no major bugs etc. Perfect. I played it for ages. The only thing that was missing which would have made it completely stellar was an online multiplayer mode, but that wasn't the norm on consoles back then. I would love them to release something like that but for the SF2 titles.
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Chun's new air SBK has some neat tricks you can pull off with it, but it comes out WAY too easily. So many times I've tried to counter with jumping kicks and had this move screw me, whereas this was never a problem in ST. It needs to have a new motion, or a much longer duration of time before you can execute the move. Being able to pogo and escape is nice; worrying about simple jump kick counters coming out wrong isn't.

    As for her grounded HDR SBKs...I like the arcing option in a few places, like against Fei Long and Sagat. It's still way too easy to punish though due to its slow start; if it were just a little faster it would make all the difference in the world. O.Chun's only benefits to using her forward and roundhouse SBKs were a bit more damage on the knockdown, and getting farther away if you were cornered. I'd much rather have just her short version as it was since it was far and away the most useful version, then to still have an arcing one since its a better option than anything she had previously.

    Heh, I was definitely thinking of the SFA Anthology when you were talking about the SFII collection idea earlier. Such a good release; imagine that with all of the online features and options the newer fighters have. Mmm.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    I'd spend up to 300 bucks if something like that came out. i bought my xbox only because of sf2. I paid 125 on my stick before i bought my xbox so I was sure that I would have controls I'm comfy with. main reason I bought it was cuz of online competition. so right off the bat, I spent over 350 just to play HDR online. the only other game I bought since then was gears of war 2 and super street fighter 4(which I sold already). I'm sure there are other die hard sf2 players like me out there.

    I know I fuck around on the forum a lot, but every word of this post is truth.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,455
    If only Guile had just a tiny bit more distance on the roundhouse flashkick and his overhead was sped up a little he'd be perfect......

    That overhead is slow enough to be seen on REACTION and blocked or retaliated against.......
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Guile's roundhouse flash kick is pleeeenty far-reaching, BD. Such a better tool for him than his old one...what makes you say that it needs juiced up more?

    His overhead has the right speed for being able to hit as it does; what gets me about it is that you can sweep him before his hit comes online. I think Sirlin had the right idea to not make it an auto-pilot move to go over low attacks, but allowing it to at least have a good chance to trade with sliding Claws would be worth having a chance to "hop over" one very specific fireball in a match he's already not favored to win. It would only require the previous five-frame animation lowest blue hitbox to be erased, and doing so would not break him in the least. The move doesn't have enough priority in HDR to be scary, and he gives up charge yet doesn't advance on the attempt.
    I'd spend up to 300 bucks if something like that came out. i bought my xbox only because of sf2. I paid 125 on my stick before i bought my xbox so I was sure that I would have controls I'm comfy with. main reason I bought it was cuz of online competition. so right off the bat, I spent over 350 just to play HDR online. the only other game I bought since then was gears of war 2 and super street fighter 4(which I sold already). I'm sure there are other die hard sf2 players like me out there.

    I know I fuck around on the forum a lot, but every word of this post is truth.

    Haha you're not the only one, man! Only difference is that I still have SSFIV. :lol:
  • TecmoSuperBowlTecmoSuperBowl Don't look here. Joined: Posts: 423
    Re: Guile's overhead

    Sounds good to me. I'd actually gladly take the old properties of the upside-down kick (no overhead, faster startup, no hitbox low) IF I could do it from anywhere like the overhead in HDR. The problem in ST is you could only do it when you're very close to the opponent, which doesn't let you take advantage of the kicks long reach.
  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,455
    Meh, mainly speaking out of frustration when I get stuck in a corner by Ryu, if it reached just a little further I could hit his hands on prediction...........

    However, at the correct distance its simply not possible...... but this could end up having other consequences*sigh*

    The risk-reward is not in Guile's favor when he does go for it due to the terrible recovery time, but it is nice to have another option.........
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Haha you're not the only one, man! Only difference is that I still have SSFIV. :lol:

    Well, I gave my copy of SSF4 away instead of selling it, but I'm also a club member.

    Guile can go over some low tiger shots with the start-up of the overhead, but I'm not sure if it's all of them, or if it's possible on reaction. I'll try to look at the old Roundhouse, but the forward (which can travel) seems like it has better potential as a counter move.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Guile can go over some low tiger shots with the start-up of the overhead, but I'm not sure if it's all of them, or if it's possible on reaction. I'll try to look at the old Roundhouse, but the forward (which can travel) seems like it has better potential as a counter move.

    That's true, and it is, save for a bit of damage. His overhead would be riskier than the sobats even without the ease with which Claw pokes or slides him out of it every time. At least it would be worth considering for the damage if it wasn't quite as risky, especially in that match-up. It's pretty hard to give Guile much of anything else from a design standpoint :wgrin:
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    Meh, mainly speaking out of frustration when I get stuck in a corner by Ryu, if it reached just a little further I could hit his hands on prediction...........

    However, at the correct distance its simply not possible...... but this could end up having other consequences*sigh*

    The risk-reward is not in Guile's favor when he does go for it due to the terrible recovery time, but it is nice to have another option.........

    Given that I've been Flash Kicking Ryu both before and after him throwing Hadoukens since Champion Edition, I don't think this is a problem at all. If you time it right, you can hit Ryu and have the Hadouken go under the Flash Kick. If you can do it in any game before ST, then you should have no problem timing his Roundhouse Flash Kick to do the same thing...especially because of its trajectory. When I've played HDR Guile, it's become easier for me to do this.

    And yes...giving that move more range would result in Claw having absolutely no chance at all to Wall Dive, citing one consequence. It'd be a pretty broken change, IMHO.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    For Guile to hang with top tier characters in high level play he needs the CPS1 low forward back and reduce the recovery back -1 like old guile in st compared to new guile. This way he wont lose to so much bs any more.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Oddly enough, recent footage from Japan (thanks to NH2, VF4 and others) presents absurd Guile players like Muteki and Batayan giving Dhalsims such as KKY, Hakase and Gian quite a challenge, and there aren't many worse match-ups in the game, if any.* This is beyond me. Anyway, I feel a flash kick with that a range would be much more a problem for Ken than Claw. I ain't even sure Claw needs wall dives to beat Guile, but that anyway should come as no surprise as I am not good with Guile nor have used him against a good Claw.

    Japanese tops sort of agree only N.Sagat vs N.Dhalsim is worse.
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    For Guile to hang with top tier characters in high level play he needs the CPS1 low forward back and reduce the recovery back -1 like old guile in st compared to new guile. This way he wont lose to so much bs any more.

    Now you know that would make him way too turtle friendly. The low-tier characters, especially Cammy, would really be out of luck if that happened. Make that Sobat Kick go over slides and he'll go up the tiers soon enough.
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
  • TecmoSuperBowlTecmoSuperBowl Don't look here. Joined: Posts: 423
    Now you know that would make him way too turtle friendly. The low-tier characters, especially Cammy, would really be out of luck if that happened. Make that Sobat Kick go over slides and he'll go up the tiers soon enough.

    I remember you mentioned this before. I'm a bit confused though because I thought Guile's Sobat already beats Claw's Slide. The problem is the timing. Guile's Sobat starts up slower than Claw's slide, and it has fewer hitting frames. So you need to anticipate the slide and time it just before he attempts it to hit him out of it. If you time it too early, the hitting frames will run out and you'll get hit, if you time it too late the hitting frames will not come out in time? and you'll get hit. And if you guess wrong and he didn't slide, well you know?
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I remember you mentioned this before. I'm a bit confused though because I thought Guile's Sobat already beats Claw's Slide. The problem is the timing. Guile's Sobat starts up slower than Claw's slide, and it has fewer hitting frames. So you need to anticipate the slide and time it just before he attempts it to hit him out of it. If you time it too early, the hitting frames will run out and you'll get hit, if you time it too late the hitting frames will not come out in time? and you'll get hit. And if you guess wrong and he didn't slide, well you know?

    I hate sobat, if you make it better against slides, then you need to reduce its vertical reach so that my fei's jump attacks stop trading with it.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • MackdaddiMackdaddi The Great Dictator Joined: Posts: 754
    HDR vs ST is a really good example of what would be the most probable outcome of SF3SHDR vs SF3S

    This post is only slightly relevant to this thread, so apologies in advance, but the SF3 third strike online wishlist thread has already started to disintegrate into arguments about whether the game should be remixed in the style of HDR or not. It's turning into the same situation, the OG purists versus the guys who are in favour of making it better and more accessible, all over again.

    Has the HDR versus ST debate taught us nothing? I hope capcom are paying a lot of attention and kill all the speculation early with some concrete details.

    http://shoryuken.com/f160/street-fighter-3rd-strike-online-edition-245026/#post9408167
    これはあなたの墓があります......This place shall become your grave
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    It didn't start to disintegrate; it began that way. There are way too many knee-jerk ludicrous requests to take seriously, so between the overblown HDR vs ST divide and comments like that, I can understand veterans' reactions to not want changes. That said...so long as Capcom opts not to excessively nerf or simplify in a "remix," and instead optimize character options to deepen the already great 3S experience, you wouldn't see any debate nearly to the scope of SFII. Keeping a truly pristine original version of the game intact as well reduces it even further. And of course, ultimately the decision rests with Capcom and whatever they think will make the most money overall.

    Now back to Guile...I wouldn't mind if his low forward was a frame faster, so long as the priority stayed relatively low as it is now. Characters like Cammy and T.Hawk who really rely on beating this poke could still do so, and are themselves due for a few upgrades.
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    lol, was wondering when the guile low forward contreversy would pop up again. Im all for improving the guiles low forward and it is the only way to make guile seriously competative in the top tiers. but I think FreshOJ's statement:... 'Make that Sobat Kick go over slides and he'll go up the tiers soon enough.'

    ...also makes a lot of sense (aslong we're talking about all slides, not just vega's)
    Funniest Rage Quit Ever:
    HDR Hate Mail Collection:
  • TecmoSuperBowlTecmoSuperBowl Don't look here. Joined: Posts: 423
    :cool:

    Guile's Sobat in general is already very good. If you increase the hitboxes, or number of hitting frames, I will spam it more than a Gief spams green hand. :wow:
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    :cool:

    Guile's Sobat in general is already very good. If you increase the hitboxes, or number of hitting frames, I will spam it more than a Gief spams green hand. :wow:

    Which is exactly why if you make it better against slides by extending it forward(that'd be gay), or by extending it downward(seems good), then the hitbox shouldn't even rise above his leg. That way its not some utility AA/anit slide move
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Just throwing out some ideas, what about just making it so that from the very first frame of the sobat, it's already airborne at its maximum height. Also, maybe changing cr. short would work. Get rid of the extended vulnerable hitbox, reduce its attack range a bit, and change its frame data to 3 8 2. Increasing the range on his cr. jab could also help against Claw's cr. strongs.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Sobat's already really good as a normal, guys. It doesn't need buffed at all; it would get too scary really quickly. Guile's low shorts aren't meant to beat anything either, and they have great range and damage for some advanced combos with him. As for his crouching jab, it already has some great outward range for a quick poke (despite its inability to hit anything low).
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Leave Guile's cr Forward alone, leave his Sobat alone, just buff his cr Short so it beats all slides. This wouldn't overpower him too much since the range on cr Short is not very good, and would fix all of his bad matchups in one strike:

    vs Blanka: cr Short will beat slides but will lose to Blanka's cr Fierce
    vs Vega: cr Short will beat slides but will lose to cr Strong, st Forward and st Fierce
    vs Dhalsim: cr Short will beat slides and low punches but will lose to st Strong and possibly st Fierce
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Sobat's already really good as a normal, guys. It doesn't need buffed at all; it would get too scary really quickly. Guile's low shorts aren't meant to beat anything either, and they have great range and damage for some advanced combos with him. As for his crouching jab, it already has some great outward range for a quick poke (despite its inability to hit anything low).

    Nice... Right on.
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Leave Guile's cr Forward alone, leave his Sobat alone, just buff his cr Short so it beats all slides. This wouldn't overpower him too much since the range on cr Short is not very good, and would fix all of his bad matchups in one strike:

    vs Blanka: cr Short will beat slides but will lose to Blanka's cr Fierce
    vs Vega: cr Short will beat slides but will lose to cr Strong, st Forward and st Fierce
    vs Dhalsim: cr Short will beat slides and low punches but will lose to st Strong and possibly st Fierce
    Blanka is not a bad matchup for Guile once you reach a certain level. Guile has everything he needs.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Just a thought, some of the ideas in this thread would make some characters too powerfull..... Which would cuase some players to think the game would need to be rebalanced again.

    So, if you rebalanced the rebalanced version of HDR (a rebalanced version of ST).... Would you end up back at Super Turbo... Kind of like, three left turns make a right a turn... just a thought.... j/k :razz:

    -fatty
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Leave Guile's cr Forward alone, leave his Sobat alone, just buff his cr Short so it beats all slides. This wouldn't overpower him too much since the range on cr Short is not very good, and would fix all of his bad matchups in one strike:

    vs Blanka: cr Short will beat slides but will lose to Blanka's cr Fierce
    vs Vega: cr Short will beat slides but will lose to cr Strong, st Forward and st Fierce
    vs Dhalsim: cr Short will beat slides and low punches but will lose to st Strong and possibly st Fierce

    You'd be surprised how fast Guile would become abusive if he had a fast ranged ground poke that's hard to stuff and has any kind of decent priority. It's very important that he has at least a hint of a weakness from his charged crouch.

    If you check the frame data, you will see that Blanka's crouching fierce hits over Guile's crouching shorts, so making it somehow able to beat Blanka's slide yet lose to his long-range punch would be...dangerous. And any kind of priority for it to be able to beat Claw's slide would be even worse. It simply wasn't meant to be used unless you knew you could connect with it, in which case it's great for what it does. I understand you wanting to make him the best competitor he can be, but seriously, his crouching short doesn't need to be changed.

    For reference (thanks yet again Rufus):

    Guile's crouching short

    Claw's slide

    Claw's crouching strong

    Blanka's crouching fierce

    Now shaving a single recovery frame off his low forward with the same relatively low priority it has now doesn't really scare me. It already loses head-to-head against so many other pokes, and Guile is already weak enough against sliding opponents that he shouldn't be that much more punishable. Even two or three frames might be overkill...but the single one? Sign me up. And again, simply eliminating the low hitbox on the five frames prior to his overhead hitbox coming online would give him a much better chance to trade or even beat a few moves like Claw's slide if he gets predictable, but in a package that doesn't allow him to aggressively exploit it. Overall I agree with Fulaani though; with what he has in HDR, he's pretty complete overall. Very minor nitpicks and adjustments are at the most all he should receive.

    One more character that could use a very slight tweak in a specific department is T.Hawk. All other aspects of the big man set aside, his standing fierce is a tiiiny bit too slow. It doesn't overextend him too much (it's harder to footsie poke him out of it during this than his standing strong or roundhouse, though the recovery afterward leaves him very extended), but its speed is nearly identical to his standing roundhouse, which is a much better overall poke. (Not that SFII has ever cared about being terribly realistic, but you have to imagine that a giant Native American could hand chop at least a few hundredths of a second faster than he could turn around and back kick you!) It would also help him to be able to punish a few key moves like blocked flash kicks and predictable SRKs with a touch more regularity and damage, though again in a package that T.Hawk's character design can't readily exploit. Eliminate a single startup frame, and a single recovery frame. Hardly noticeable, but just enough of a difference to really solidify its place in the T.Hawk tool set.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    You'd be surprised how fast Guile would become abusive if he had a fast ranged ground poke that's hard to stuff and has any kind of decent priority. It's very important that he has at least a hint of a weakness from his charged crouch.

    ...actually, as long as he's willing to give up charge, the standing short is pretty impressive:
    http://kayin.pyoko.org/hitboxes/guile/fashort3.png
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • FreshOJFreshOJ It's the God in me.. Joined: Posts: 1,485
    ...actually, as long as he's willing to give up charge, the standing short is pretty impressive:
    http://kayin.pyoko.org/hitboxes/guile/fashort3.png

    Very true! I forgot about that. How does that do against slides?
    Onaje Everett
    Still in S.D., representing the Almighty.
    READ MY FAQ!!! (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/939066/56195)
Sign In or Register to comment.