Rebalancing ST Remix

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  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    How many times in higher-level matches in ST or HDR do you see Zangief dropping his SPD accidentally, though? Where do you see him pulling off his 360 throws when he couldn't have before? His other tools to get in better and counter are what have made him much better.

    T.Hawk's was a much more noticeable change though. Could you imagine a T.Hawk with that motion and no whiff? Yes, of course, it's easy (and fair) to argue that since it was the core of his game, it should have just been left alone. But wow, imagine some Sako ticks with the new motion and no whiff, especially against a more balanced cast of opponents.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    You occasionally see high-level players drop the command grab. But making the motion easier didn't really bother me.

    T.Hawk's changes were pretty drastic. I totally agree with having a whiff animation for the command grab. I don't think you should ever have a risk-free special or super with no whiff animation at all, including Honda's ochio and all grab supers.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Risk versus reward on grab supers...they don't really give the characters that have them any kind of advantage they wouldn't have had without them, unlike the other supers in the game. It's more like they're just bonus damage for doing what you do normally once you get to that point. Because of this, I don't feel like giving them whiffs (at least to burn the meter off) would be a good idea. I definitely understand where you're coming from, though.

    In the case of Honda's Ochio throw, at least not having the ability to store it would mean you'd introduce risk by having to temporarily give up the charge for his other reversal moves. Since it's not readily repeatable anymore, I think that would be enough to keep it potent, but balanced. I would give it back its old higher stun damage though. Frankly, I'm still in disbelief that stored Ochio was left in the game at all.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Being able to do twice as much damage off a tick setup is a pretty big advantage. Although, since only the very best players are able to pull that off consistently, I think it's fair. I just strongly dislike the idea of being able to do a move, any move, without any type of risk. It just doesn't make any sense from the perspective of a game designer. Same concept should be given to throws as well. There should be a whiff animation for poorly timed or spaced out throws.

    I think everybody universally agrees that stored ochio is cheap. Even Honda players admit that it's a cheap move. Of course these are considered bugs in the code and not designed by the developers. Same goes for stored supers. Imagine if Chun didn't have that ability. She'd definitely drop in the character rankings.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Non Honda players get way more upset about stored Ochio than they should, it really doesn't come into play that often. The fact that you can still negative edge it is much more important (and fair, IMO, since he now always bounces away from his opponent). It rarely comes into play, I'd gladly trade it to have his Super storable again, or heck even to have his Super safe on block. At least that would help him in his hardest match-ups, especially since it isn't punishable on hit anymore (why the heck was it ever in the first place? Talk about bad design).
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I believe eltrouble is correct about the SPD motion. Gunze did drop it in SBO finals, for instance. As for other commands, like chickon wing, we've found out it has some unusual input, plus the fact that kara-cancel period in Fei's towards+RH is much shorter. But Sirlin did not know about it. A few commands, such as Tiger Knee and Head Press, have an unusually short period for pressing the button. Well, I guess now it is too late.

    I do have trouble with Ken's quarter-circle-down crazy kicks in ST. Those, and Gief's Green Hand, do come out several times when people don't want them.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    I believe eltrouble is correct about the SPD motion. Gunze did drop it in SBO finals, for instance. As for other commands, like chickon wing, we've found out it has some unusual input, plus the fact that kara-cancel period in Fei's towards+RH is much shorter. But Sirlin did not know about it. A few commands, such as Tiger Knee and Head Press, have an unusually short period for pressing the button. Well, I guess now it is too late.

    I do have trouble with Ken's quarter-circle-down crazy kicks in ST. Those, and Gief's Green Hand, do come out several times when people don't want them.

    I think the difficulty of these motions help reinforce how difficult it is to perform consistently at a high-level during stressful situations. Whether or not increased difficulty in special/super input is a good thing or not, can be debated forever.

    ST does have some odd inconsistencies with regards to timing shifts. Gotta give Sirlin props for trying to standardize that system.

    I think the changes made to Ken's weird crazy kick motions were excellent. Made things simpler to pull off without having to worry about accidentally getting a special when all you wanted to do was walk up cr.fwd. Green hand motion tends to be annoying to certain Gief players who are used to doing the circle motions in the forward direction, and accidentally get the green hand....which is a pretty colossal execution error.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Even if Gunze dropped the ST 360 motion once in the heat of the highest-level tournament play, it doesn't validate how much better the new "360" motion has made Zangief. Though it would likely happen very slightly less frequently, the new motion could still be screwed up. In addition, there aren't any real-world applications that the new motion adds to Zangief's game that he didn't have before.

    Also of the camp that loves the input changes to Ken's crazy kicks, and Gief's new Banishing Flat motion (though the SRK motion would have been preferable).

    Speaking of Gief's Banishing Flat, how would you rebalance it to make the other strengths of the move actually worth using?

    I'd make the jab version travel a slightly smaller distance, since as it is with the better recovery (18 frames), it seems a bit too easy to tick with. His strong and fierce versions would lose the same hurtbox at his head, for consistency.

    The strong version would travel the same distance it always has, and keep the old recovery (22 frames). It would, however, do more damage (from 22 to 25). Coupled with his high defense, this would allow him to also trade favorably against nearly every ground move in the game if he's willing to risk the slightly longer recovery.

    The fierce version would amp this up even more, allowing him to do another three points of damage (from 25 to 28) and travel slightly farther than the strong version. As a very powerful swing move, though, it would also bear another four recovery frames (from 22 to 26). It would be less useful up-close than the other two (unless your opponent is brain-dead predictable), but with the best range and damage, it would be a solid punishment option in a few places.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    I like the idea of having jab travel a short distance, but it has the shortest start and recovery time. Increase start+recovery for each subsequent version, but also have them travel farther. Basically if you're able to read the fireball, you could green hand through it and SPD, but it would have to be more of a read than a reaction type thing. The jab version might find better use at the mid-range, or even be able to do it in combos. It would have to be minus frame advantage on hit and block, but the surprise factor might allow you to sneak in an SPD for gimmicks. Just a theory.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    If you had a BF that both started up and recovered slower, it would be a bit too easy to bait, I think. Regardless, we agree that differentiation makes the most sense.



    Some thoughts on Boxer, and his TAPs...

    Sirlin wanted to give him some kind of buff (focusing on his two TAPs), but nothing worked out in the scheduled time frame. Seems like a good place to explore, doesn't it?

    So I got to thinking: Who really charges punch TAP past the first few levels? You're giving up his holds, headbutt reversal, and much of his range to do so.

    What if the punch TAP charged faster once you got past level 2?

    Normally, level 1 takes 30 frames (with no frameskip/turbo), and level 2 takes 120 (a difference of 90 frames). Level 3 doubles the previous amount to 240, 4 doubles again to 480, and 5 once more to 960. From that point on, each progressive level takes an additional 480, including Final which takes 2400 total frames to charge up.

    For a tweaked punch version, we'll instead use that difference of 90 as a base, instead of the 120. Levels 1 and 2 would remain the same, but 3 would only take 210, 4 would be 420, and 5 would need 840. Using the same scale of increase, that would make the Final TAP require only 2100 frames.

    Now yeah, that's not much of a difference; honestly, you'd usually see it around level 3 and 4. It would, however, give you at least one more reason to use the punch version instead. In some matches where you really turtle, this could help. It's also a way to buff Boxer reasonably, which is nice.



    The other thought was to give him the lower-body invulnerable startup of the Hyper Fighting TAPs. Considering how oppressive he already is, even in HDR, though, it's probably a bad idea.

    On the other hand, if we were to consider bringing back the old ST characters, this would be perfect for O.Boxer. Since he has no super and can't neutral fierce "float" over fireballs, this would give him a good way to keep up. The move is still vulnerable before he connects, so it wouldn't replace his headbutt reversal.

    O.Boxer also can't work his charges as well as N.Boxer since he has no low rush moves, so this would allow him to string a powerful offense together in a unique way. I like the thought of his more frequently-used kick version having the invulnerability through level 2, just like in HF, and his punch version to get the same properties for anything above that (level 3 and up). At least N.Boxer can still use his super with kick buttons; O.Boxer really limits his options if his punches are locked up in a charge, so it seems to be a fair trade.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    It isn't so much as wanting to give boxer a buff, it was more "Here is this fun new thing he should have, it is ok if it kind of sucks", much like bison fake slide.

    EDIT: Also, the frame data on turn punches doesn't change as it goes up in levels, so many very good boxers charge it up to level 4 and 5, it is especially good even if it trades and totally safe on block
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    EDIT: Also, the frame data on turn punches doesn't change as it goes up in levels, so many very good boxers charge it up to level 4 and 5, it is especially good even if it trades and totally safe on block

    The travel speed changes pretty massively though.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
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  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    I've been playing around with editing the ST ROM, with some interesting and fun results. Most of the HDR changes were really well thought out, and this thread is proof that people keep innovating when it comes to the classic. If anyone has anything they'd like to try out within reason (speed/frame data adjustments, damage, sizes or appearances of hitboxes), I'm willing to test it out.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Well, he generally made the tiniest changes possible, and the changes are so tiny that most people who complain about hdr complain about things that weren't even changed, or make factually incorrect statements about development, or just go straight to nirvana fallacy
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So why bait out the hate? Instead, how about addressing the more relevant and interesting part of what I said: We can actually play with and test out many of the rebalancing ideas.

    Today alone, I was able to play with N.Cammy's backfists to make them slightly faster (six frames overall), and it feels just right. O.Cammy's are still slower as before, but the first hit connects as an overhead, so if you land it deep, your opponent has to block high or eat both hits. O.Cammy also got a priority buff on her forward and roundhouse Cannon Drills (since hers are slower than the HDR-tweaked N.Cammy's), and like in CvS2 (and N.Boxer's low rushes), they have to be blocked low or you get a sweep knockdown. It makes O.Cammy slightly slower overall than N.Cammy, but she has a bit more priority on her aerial normals and drills, and now has a refreshing sort of mixup game that's good for her, yet hard to really abuse.

    There's a lot of potential here, and a lot of fun to be had...so who's willing to pitch in?
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    I would rather just have the hdr changes, since it was shown to improve the game, and I am fine with that.

    Cammy is in a fine place in hdr, I don't think having slightly different but probably worse cammy adds much
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    What I'm shooting for is to both have fun experimenting, and to have a "slightly different but probably worse" anybody. If you're not behind that, why are you even in this thread to begin with?
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Well, why don't you go crazy town then? HDR is pretty good for balance already, why not go a totally different direction?

    More juggles, YES. Regular fei long has easier rekkas, which means all his normals are cancellable? YES. I would support this type of mod for st

    EDIT: Actually I would just do a totally different game that deserves it, like alpha 2/3, but since i have no idea how to hex edit or where to even start, I can't do that
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    There's a lot of potential here, and a lot of fun to be had...so who's willing to pitch in?

    That's cool stuff Jizzon. Was wondering if you can slow down Honda's recovery after a Torpedo? Make it so he recovers slower and/or doesn't get pushed back so far. Not so slow that O.Sagat or Ryu's reversal fireball will hit him, or even Balrog's reversal Rush. And then test Hawk/Zangief/Cammy's options to punish him on recovery.

    Maybe you could have him with the same Torpedo recovery, but doesn't get pushed back very far. So then maybe Zangief or Hawk could do a walkup SPD/Typhoon. The important thing is that he doesn't lose to fireball characters on recovery but can get punished by long range throws. I'd be interested to know if this is possible. Thanks.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Why not just have all headbutts have the same hitboxes/invincibility as the fp one? I like having safe on block moves be good instead
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So you want him to stay closer to the opponent when recovering, but to recover slightly faster so that basically only throws could catch him, right?

    I'm sure that's possible, but I'm still learning quite a bit about how to tinker with the game's engine. Changing velocities of moves is within the scope of what we're doing, but I don't know how to do that just yet.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    So basically all I have to do against fireballers is get them to block one Headbutt and I'm right up in their grill, while just refrain from throwing random headbutts at grounded Zangief and T.Hawks (which no good Honda is going to do anyway, especially against Gief)? I'm all in! ;)

    Plus, if HB left him in command throw range on block then wouldn't that give him a nice negative edge Ochio safe mix up after a blocked HB against everyone else (if he's in Hawk's SPD range he's basically in Ochio range)? I see where you were going with this but I think it would end up being to good vrs everyone else.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I doubt its possible to make torpedo punishable by non fireballers but not punishable by fireballers. Id say take its invincibilty or reduce it, so that non fireballers can pressure his knockdown more effectively.

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  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Having buttslam be his only reversal seems safe enough, and probably a lot more fair since he has to have the down charge
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I never understood why he has an invincible, AA, always safe on block move*. Alongside a "flashkick type" move

    I am unaware if there are any special cases, or if certain characters can actually punish it ever.
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  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Having buttslam be his only reversal seems safe enough, and probably a lot more fair since he has to have the down charge

    Headbutt as a reversal isn't really usefull against Gief or Hawk since it's start up is throwable, you get grabbed long before the active frames come out. Plus it's fairly easy for them to safe jump and/or bait and punish on wake up. They both are in the driver seat once theh get a knockdown, it's the getting in in the 1st place that is so hard for them.

    Sumo Smash was never meant to be a "Flash kick" type move, it hits on the way up (non-HK) in order to go through fireballs and punish the fireball thrower. In fact they removed the HK version hitting on the way up in SSF2 and ST so you couldn't use it as an AA like people started using it in HF (HK would hit on way up and on way down in HF). Although in HF it didn't knock down so you would usually go through a fireball and get one hit, but they were left standing and would just sweep you on the way down, not a fair trade.

    I think giving all versions of HB only HP version amount of invincibilty would be fair. I'd do that and take away stored Ochio, leave the HDR HHS and Ochio nerfs, but give him O.Honda's normals, keep HDR Super connecting for all hits and knocking down, make Super safe on block, and either keep stored Super or HDR jab HB through FBs, one or the other. Maybe make his Super slightly faster as well, I like the idea of Honda basically being screwed against fireballs until he gets Super, then he gets his one chance to get in and do damage.
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    You also need to look at the matchup from the pov of characters like fei and cammy too. They don't have command throws to just defeat torpedo.

    Well I only called it a flashkick type move because it requires down charge and goes up with the ability to hit people. I feel that making that a stronger reversal would be more fair than leaving torpedo like it is.

    The only thing I don't like about HHS is how much damage it can do on chip when meaty.

    Actually mentioning fei, honda's and guile's hit reels could use some adjusting, so rekkas combo more uniformly against them standing.
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  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Jab headbutt is still good vs gief, come on man.

    Oh also lk and mk buttslams are still good as anti air, so no clue on that one.

    I think farther range rekkas like in hdr would be nice, so you don't have to adjust hitreel at all, unless hdr has the same issues.
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    What about my suggestion then of making all the HBs have the HP version's invincability? Or maybe the jab has what is now the HP version's while the other two have none?

    HHS does good chip damage on meaty but almost everyone can reversal it (that's why I usually do safe jump, cr.Lk, combo into HHS for chip, a little less damage but its safe).

    By the way Balrog can sometimes punish a blocked HB. It also leaves him in weird positions and vulnerable in the corner sometimes and also sometimes if it's blocked meaty on wake up.


    Edit: as AA jab headbutt is usefull vs Gief but you said as reversal. As reversal SPD if timed right will grab him everytime. It can be used against ticks, but most good Giefs safe jump into ticks on wake up vrs Honda.

    I know LK and MK are both still good AA's but I don't think that was there main intended purpose. I don't know how to make them still good vrs fireballs without being good reversals/AA.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Why not just have all headbutts have the same hitboxes/invincibility as the fp one? I like having safe on block moves be good instead


    I'm not a big fan of having all Torpedoes with the same hitboxes/invincibility as the Fierce, because the problem is not the startup. The problem is the recovery. Or rather the "safe-on-blockness". And I'm usually ok with safe on block moves too, like Balrog's Low Rush. But Balrog doesn't dominate non-fireball characters the way Honda does.

    If we modify Honda's recovery so that Zangief/Hawk get a free reversal 360, and yet Honda's safe against reversal fireballs, then that's a win-win for everybody IMO (except fireball characters, but they already dominate Honda anyway so that's fair). As for Cammy, Fei, Bison and Blanka, I'm not as worried about them as I am about Balrog. Since he has the fastest attack in the game (Straight Rush, actually throws are faster, but the Rushes are the fastest outside of SPD range), I'm worried that Balrog will get a free hit on Honda after a blocked Torpedo. That would be unacceptable cuz Honda and Balrog are pretty evenly matched up and that match shouldn't change.

    ST Wiki says Balrog's Straight Rush has 5 frames startup, this is faster than any fireball, faster than Bison's PC, faster even than Blanka's Rolls. So if we make onda's recovery 4f after a blocked Torpedo (meaning the opponent has 4f after blockstun to do something while Honda recovers), then Zangief gets a free reversal SPD cuz Honda is close enough. And Hawk can also get a free reversal Typhoon (but Honda will be out of range for an Ochio because his white throw box will be slightly bigger, which means everyone can throw Honda from slightly farther out)

    As for other non-fireball characters, Fei and Cammy will actually benefit from Honda's proximity cuz they're not exactly trying to stay away from Honda. It's Honda who is trying to stay away from them (if possible). Usually if Fei or Cammy get too close, a well timed Torpedo will push them back out again and reset the situation. But not anymore, he's not running away from Fei and Cammy anymore. The only characters to maybe not benefit from this are Blanka and Bison. Bison prolly has better options to counter-chip Honda than Blanka, but Blanka can at least jump on Honda and stuff any non-Torpedo anti-airs that Honda has.

    I think this is a good idea because it hurts Honda against non-fireball characters and it helps him against fireball characters (by leaving him closer to them after a blocked Torpedo). But at least this helps Zangief and Hawk rather than leaving the status quo as it is, and it keeps Cammy and Fei close to Honda where they want to be (mostly), and it doesn't hurt his other matches vs Balrog, Vega, Sim, etc (at least I don't think it does). Most other ideas I've heard for balancing Honda only help one or two non-fireball characters while leaving Honda the same vs fireballers (eg nerfing Honda's Torpedo hitbox so that Zangief's Lariat always beats it, doesn't help anybody else tho).

    Another bonus of this is that safejumping Honda doesn't eliminate his capacity to do reversal Torpedo, but now if Zangief or Hawk safejump him, he will have exactly the same options as Balrog.

    But obviously this is only theory fighter, and even if it sounds good on paper, we would have to see it in action before we can say if it's a good idea or bad idea. And I'm not saying this will fix Honda, it's only the starting point, but if it works well, then we can look at how else to buff/nerf Honda based on this IMO.

    So you want him to stay closer to the opponent when recovering, but to recover slightly faster so that basically only throws could catch him, right?


    I'm sure that's possible, but I'm still learning quite a bit about how to tinker with the game's engine. Changing velocities of moves is within the scope of what we're doing, but I don't know how to do that just yet.

    Thanks bro.


    I think giving all versions of HB only HP version amount of invincibilty would be fair. I'd do that and take away stored Ochio, leave the HDR HHS and Ochio nerfs, but give him O.Honda's normals, keep HDR Super connecting for all hits and knocking down, make Super safe on block, and either keep stored Super or HDR jab HB through FBs, one or the other. Maybe make his Super slightly faster as well, I like the idea of Honda basically being screwed against fireballs until he gets Super, then he gets his one chance to get in and do damage.

    Totally agreed with all of this.

    Actually mentioning fei, honda's and guile's hit reels could use some adjusting, so rekkas combo more uniformly against them standing.

    Agreed with this too, Honda needs to be slightly easier to hit and throw IMO.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    One of the first things I did was to make Honda's throwable box a single pixel wider.

    It doesn't give any character a huge difference in how the throw matchups work, with the exception of T.Hawk. Now, if you can manage to tick him from afar with standing jab, or from point-blank with a strong or forward poke, you can 360 him just like you could to everyone else. Feels right.

    I'm willing to entertain anything I can readily reproduce at the moment, which includes shorter recoveries, altering hitbox properties (including tagging knockback, juggles, overheads, and low-block only moves), and increasing or decreasing invulnerabilities of moves. Many things, like changing velocities of moves, are doable, but I just don't know how yet.

    Some examples:

    -Dictator's old Psycho Crusher hitboxes (out to his feet), but with only up to three chip-on-block hits

    -Zangief's lariats always beat Honda's headbutts cleanly

    -Slightly faster SBFs for Cammy

    -Stray box fixes all over the place

    Right now, I'm also tweaking both the old and new characters in ST, but if anyone has anything to add, I'm game. If any of you are experts with hex-digging and reverse engineering, it would be great to have your help.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    You do a weird non sequitur going from hitboxes to frame data, so, no idea on that. Anyway honda having to sit in down back for a reliable anti air is pretty nice, since both cammy and fei have powerful anti headbutt and chip tools, especially if they get the hdr versions of rekka and safe cannon drill. Lk cannon drill is already hard for honda to headbutt, and taking away lp headbutt means that it is almost impossible. Fei long already has lk chicken wing and st fp, if honda has to sit down to avoid a chicken wing trap that is all the better for fei. The matchup for fei v honda is at least pretty close in hdr, so nerfing honda slightly more would probably be ok.


    Oh and lp headbutt change means that honda can't really escape spds while standing which is probably important

    You are factually wrong on blanka rolls, They are zero frame startup, both horizontal and vertical

    Jizzon you are doing the "designer intent" thing with regards to buttslam being an anti air, which is almost always irrelevant. Work with what is not some made up ideal you do not even know is true

    Crossup crusher again, really?
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    You are factually wrong on blanka rolls, They are zero frame startup, both horizontal and vertical

    I never said Blanka's Rolls have more than zero frame startup. They are fast, they have faster startup than almost any attack in the game.

    But the question is: do they travel faster across a given space than other attacks? They don't. Balrog's Straight Rush has slower startup than Blanka's 0f startup, but he travels faster across the screen than Blanka's Rolls.

    How do you test this? It's easy. Pick Blanka vs Blanka and then pick Balrog vs Blanka. Then have Blanka do a Fierce Roll.

    If Blanka blocks the Fierce Roll, he can counter with a reversal Roll, and hit the other Blanka when he lands on the ground. However, if Balrog blocks the Fierce Roll, he can counter with a Low Rush (which has slower startup than the Straight Rush), and he will hit Blanka BEFORE HE LANDS ON THE GROUND. The Rushes are SO FAST, Balrog can hit Blanka while he's still in the air, resetting him instead of knocking him down. Blanka's reversal Roll could never hit Blanka while he's still in the air.

    NO OTHER ATTACK IN THE GAME CAN HIT BLANKA IN THE AIR AFTER A BLOCKED ROLL. Not Bison's PC, not Fei's Rekka, not Ryu's Hadoken, not Honda's Torpedo, nothing. Except Balrog's Rushes.

    Don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Jizzon you are doing the "designer intent" thing with regards to buttslam being an anti air, which is almost always irrelevant. Work with what is not some made up ideal you do not even know is true

    Crossup crusher again, really?


    When did I bring up Honda's buttslam...?

    As far as crossup crusher, it's an experiment.

    First of all, it was a learning tool for me on how to use HF's object test menu, then to implement what I took from it into ST, which worked.

    Secondly, it gives you a reason to actually pick O.Dic, simple as that. It can definitely be cheesy, but he needs something to be competitive, and since he's a classic character, borrowing from an earlier version of himself made sense. HF Dic has it, and he's still considered to be one of the worst characters in that game. It seems to be slightly stronger in ST due to fewer fully invincible reversals and the fact that he has the ToD combos, but he also doesn't have the escape options either ST or especially HDR Dic do.

    So far, this modified O.Dic has been fun and potent in testing. Anyone want to help?
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
    Doesn't dhalsim st fp hit him in the air?

    Also this sentence here:
    ST Wiki says Balrog's Straight Rush has 5 frames startup, this is faster than any fireball, faster than Bison's PC, faster even than Blanka's Rolls.
    Seems to say you were talking about startup

    Oh you are still bothering with old dictator, I thought you gave it to regular bison. And I got you confused with mad possum, whoops
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Boxer's startup is technically slower than Blanka's, but he moves fast, and the range from his nearly-instantly extended arm makes up the difference.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear on O.Dic. N.Dictator got pretty much everything he needed in HDR; so far we've only tweaked a few of his lesser-used normals, like diagonal jumping fierce and crouching jab. Nothing drastic, because he's already pretty good now.

    Another example would be N.Ryu. His design is so good, it's hard to really find places to tweak him. I removed the head hitbox only on the rising portion of his strong SRK so that it might be a better anti-air option when you don't have the luxury of hitting deeply with it. This also still allows other specials to stuff it on the ground, unlike HDR Ken's fully invincible version.

    I also pulled the first hitbox of his juggling strong back into his body a bit, so it's exactly the same range as his old jumping strong (which lines up very well with the animation). It still allows him to toolbox with it and control the air well, but not quite as freely as before.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    I would rather not have invinc on hdr bison DR by the way, Maybe scissor kicks are throw invincible from the first frame? It makes him feel too slippery, which is a problem.

    I think like, trying to improve on N Ryu would be a mistake. Old ryu is easy to fix, just remove him, since randomly unblockable hurricanes are super dumb wow.

    Ryu is a good base to have in your game, especially if he is basically unchanged
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    The invinc on DR is pretty much perfectly balanced with it being completely vulnerable to air attacks. I think Bison is one of the two characters HDR got down almost perfect (other being Sagat). I'd take away R.Bison's juggle off of his neutral jumping MP before I'd worry about the new DR, it's the only thing that might be too good.

    For N.Ryu, fix the Super bug where it randomly won't come out in combos and slightly nerf his jumping MP (and for the love of every thing SF do NOT give him a fake FB, LOL).
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Doesn't dhalsim st fp hit him in the air?

    Pretty sure it doesn't, at least I've never seen it hit him in the air. Even if it does, it's still not faster than Balrog's Rushes. Vega can also sometimes hit Blanka out the air with cr Strong or Fierce, but it doesn't happen every times and also is slightly slower than Balrog.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    For sure, I wouldn't let any version of Dic juggle launch off of any normal move. Letting him juggle (but not launch) with neutral jumping strong isn't readily repeatable like the diagonal versions, though his neutral jumping fierce looks similar, and doesn't knock down.

    I am a huge fan of his Devil Reverse in HDR, as it allows him to escape in many places where he was just screwed before. It's not totally free though, since you have to steer it, and it only has a small invulnerability window. His super is still the best way to punish and really reversal, so this just adds to it. I am going to play with reducing the damage on hit, but allowing it to juggle launch to see what it feels like.

    Regarding Ryu, I'd like to learn how to give him a fake fireball, to start. If it was to be left in at all, though, at the very least it would have longer recovery by several frames. Other than that, the only improvement he's getting is to that strong SRK like I mentioned. He's also had two normals nerfed (close fierce, and his juggling strongs).

    For O.Ryu, I'd change his air Tatsu to a version more similar to what he had in HF (but also won't ever be unblockable). He'd play even more differently than his new counterpart, yet still in a familiar and potent way.
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