Rebalancing ST Remix

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  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    ryu has unblockable air tatsu's in hyper. Its just like ST, 50% chance. Maybe higher than 50% in hyper. seemed like it was at least 80%. I'm not sure about ken though.

    source, hyper player here.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,205
    Give Honda's HK Sumo Smash red hitboxes on the way up like his LK and MK ones (he had this prior to Super). And everything possum said.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
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  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    ryu has unblockable air tatsu's in hyper. Its just like ST, 50% chance. Maybe higher than 50% in hyper. seemed like it was at least 80%. I'm not sure about ken though.

    source, hyper player here.

    The only thing I can think is that it doesn't fall so perhaps it misses most crouchers, but then you'd have to guess crouch against a jump. . .

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  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Close fierce nerfed

    Hnngh.

    ST is an old game, with mostly known quantities for every character, when you are changing something like this, it is important to have a light touch on what to change, and to understand that it is better to have one change with more relevance (ryu fake fireball) than a bunch of tiny changes that maybe build up to something or maybe don't matter (Close fp nerf, changes basically nothing, ryu jump mp nerf, probably doesn't change much, mp dp buff, ryu players already practiced for 20 years doing dragon punches late, so why does this matter).



    I have seen a lot of complaining about the fake fireball being too good, but if you have seen ryu play, it is still way better to throw a regular fireball, maybe it is slightly too fast, but removal entirely? It is so cool, and a lot of fun to use. I feel like if ryu is too good (the answer is no), maybe it could be toned down but the problem isn't really with him
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    mad possum wrote:
    Headbutt as a reversal isn't really usefull against Gief or Hawk since it's start up is throwable, you get grabbed long before the active frames come out. Plus it's fairly easy for them to safe jump and/or bait and punish on wake up. They both are in the driver seat once theh get a knockdown, it's the getting in in the 1st place that is so hard for them.

    Sumo Smash was never meant to be a "Flash kick" type move, it hits on the way up (non-HK) in order to go through fireballs and punish the fireball thrower. In fact they removed the HK version hitting on the way up in SSF2 and ST so you couldn't use it as an AA like people started using it in HF (HK would hit on way up and on way down in HF). Although in HF it didn't knock down so you would usually go through a fireball and get one hit, but they were left standing and would just sweep you on the way down, not a fair trade.

    I think giving all versions of HB only HP version amount of invincibilty would be fair. I'd do that and take away stored Ochio, leave the HDR HHS and Ochio nerfs, but give him O.Honda's normals, keep HDR Super connecting for all hits and knocking down, make Super safe on block, and either keep stored Super or HDR jab HB through FBs, one or the other. Maybe make his Super slightly faster as well, I like the idea of Honda basically being screwed against fireballs until he gets Super, then he gets his one chance to get in and do damage.

    ...

    What about my suggestion then of making all the HBs have the HP version's invincability? Or maybe the jab has what is now the HP version's while the other two have none?

    HHS does good chip damage on meaty but almost everyone can reversal it (that's why I usually do safe jump, cr.Lk, combo into HHS for chip, a little less damage but its safe).

    By the way Balrog can sometimes punish a blocked HB. It also leaves him in weird positions and vulnerable in the corner sometimes and also sometimes if it's blocked meaty on wake up.


    Edit: as AA jab headbutt is usefull vs Gief but you said as reversal. As reversal SPD if timed right will grab him everytime. It can be used against ticks, but most good Giefs safe jump into ticks on wake up vrs Honda.

    I know LK and MK are both still good AA's but I don't think that was there main intended purpose. I don't know how to make them still good vrs fireballs without being good reversals/AA.

    What is it about the strong headbutt that necessitates it gets fewer invulnerable frames before he hits? I've heard the argument for not having the jab version be able to hit while he's still invulnerable (the only move of Honda's that can, by the way), but I don't recall a single other person saying anything about the strong version needing to be toned down. On startup, I'd be willing to remove that hitbox at the beginning of Honda's jab version, and possibly resize the next one (that hits mid and low just before he launches) to cover the area of the one taken away as well.

    For his SS/butt drop, the angles are quite different than his HF versions (so he covers much more area), and they knock down on the way up. Giving his roundhouse version the ability to knock down on the way up is something I'm willing to experiment with, but I have the feeling it will get overbearing really fast.

    Once I learn how to repurpose command inputs, I'll give this N.Honda variant the O.Honda normals. Since the version I'm playing with of ST still has the old characters (who are themselves modified as well), this will only be a temporary change for me. However, I am willing to consider giving N./HDR Honda the O.Honda far standing short, forward, and fierce as command normals that require that you hold forward to use them (like his far roundhouse sweep). This way, if you're willing to give up charge, you have some better poke and footsie options, much like how Guile's backfist and standing short work for him in ST/HDR.

    Ochio's going to not be storable the moment I figure out how to work the command inputs, and it will jump you backward like in HDR once I learn that as well. No command input changes, no whiff, and no reduction to stun or damage. Having a whiffless throw that can keep you pressed against the opponent to repeat it is too good even without the ability to store it.

    Honda's super is going to be very similar to what it is in HDR. Like in HDR, the recovery between hits will only be 5 frames (instead of 7), so it will combo into itself better, but will still be punishable by tight reversals on block. I'll have to play with the speeds of both headbutt portions and the juggle properties to get it right (and eliminate certain bugs that came after traded hits). The end of it might get better recovery, or the whole thing will be left storable, but not both.
    ryu has unblockable air tatsu's in hyper. Its just like ST, 50% chance. Maybe higher than 50% in hyper. seemed like it was at least 80%. I'm not sure about ken though.

    source, hyper player here.

    I know, man. Any version I tweak is losing that property regardless of how the rest of the move plays itself out. He's not getting any invulnerability back on the ground versions either.
    CWheezy wrote:
    Close fierce nerfed

    Hnngh.

    ST is an old game, with mostly known quantities for every character, when you are changing something like this, it is important to have a light touch on what to change, and to understand that it is better to have one change with more relevance (ryu fake fireball) than a bunch of tiny changes that maybe build up to something or maybe don't matter (Close fp nerf, changes basically nothing, ryu jump mp nerf, probably doesn't change much, mp dp buff, ryu players already practiced for 20 years doing dragon punches late, so why does this matter).

    I have seen a lot of complaining about the fake fireball being too good, but if you have seen ryu play, it is still way better to throw a regular fireball, maybe it is slightly too fast, but removal entirely? It is so cool, and a lot of fun to use. I feel like if ryu is too good (the answer is no), maybe it could be toned down but the problem isn't really with him
    It's all aspects of the game, both direct and sublime, that need to play together as a coherent whole correctly. Big obvious tweaks are game-changers immediately, and the more subtle ones tend to blend in over time.

    Regarding Ryu, his design is very good. He's not a character you give any changes to without serious thought, and he certainly doesn't need any(more) direct ones. I agree with you about his fake, though, at least to an extent; it is cool, and a lot of fun to use. It does allow his already solid fireball game to really take advantage of characters he was already winning against, though, so if it stays, it has to get more recovery.

    For his juggling strong, yes; that move is overbearingly good. The range on it takes out pretty much everything in the air, and the damage potential plus meter gain through ending or canceling with tatsus is ridiculous.

    His close fierce is more of an examination of which characters are getting into positions where that fatter hitbox is relevant. In my experience as and against him, and in watching plenty of solid Ryu players use the move, it's more often against the characters he's already doing well against. I'm willing to tweak this accordingly, so even though it might be rare to come into play, it's something.

    His strong SRK has a similar philosophy behind it; since the jab version is generally the most safe, and fierce does the most damage, they are the most commonly used. That extra priority at the upper half he now has might give you a reason now and then to throw it in more often, as another tool in the box. Will it turn many matches around? Probably not, but again, just having another reason to go to it is refreshing.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Oh I will play this thing with you by the way.

    I feel like close fp is a good reward for ryu if he gets to use it. It is pretty hard to get close fp out when you just want to anti air with it, so it being really beefy is I THINK no problem

    Oh last thing I am not saying you should know the answer or something, because I don't, but I think you do understand that the answer is really hard
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Sure man; I'll buy that. The start of that Ryu close fierce issue for me was that N./HDR Ken has overall worse tools to work with, and he arbitrarily has the worse priority of the two in this area. So I started messing around with Ryu's in matches, and it looks really funny when it does connect on that fat part of the box directly over his head. When I saw that it was coming into play slightly more often with characters he's already decent against, it seemed ripe to play with. It's definitely not any kind of problem, though; hell, I might just make N.Ken's bigger like it was with his Old version. I'll play with it both ways and see which feels better.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Ryu needs that close Fierce against Vega's Wall Dives (when Ryu is in the corner after a knock down and Vega goes off Ryu's wall, no DP options, no far Forward options, nothing but close Fierce will work).

    Beefing up Ken's close Fierce can be a double-edged sword. It makes him equal to O.Ken, but his DP is already so good. IDK, meh, fuck it, beef it up! LOL
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Thing is, I already tweaked Claw's wall dives to not knock down. O.Claw still can, though, so you might be right. No way that beefing that one normal makes N.Ken into O.Ken though, wow.
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    This is unrelated but I actually did a mod for ssfiv ae pc, check it out if you have it or something, brings more of an st/hdr vibe to sfiv
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Claw player here, my thoughts: You can't balance the game as is. IMO, it needs a massive hitbox engine rewrite and characters should be given new tools rather than nerfs and buffs. For example, taking away wall dive knock down still doesn't fix the wall dive, and hurts Claw's game. Claw can't knock characters down easy, and some matches he really needs to be able to knock down the opponent. Without knock down, he can still get a sector 2 wall dive, free throw, rinse repeat, because the dive has a massive hitbox. HDR is like that. What needs to be done is for the game to recognize more than one hitbox, the dive should have a hitbox on each hand and a hurt box on his chest instead of one large branching hitbox from hand to hand. That fixes the sector 2 ambiguous wall dive cross up, and forces a different aiming skill to hit with the hand/claw instead. Characters, like shotos for example, would actually have a "buff" to their standing close punches, because there wouldn't be a hitbox on Claw's chest above their heads hitting them. Claw should still have knock down, and should still be rewarded for scoring a well aimed and well timed wall dive. However, someone who has a very skilled wake up game will be rewarded for that, and the Claw player will have to adjust properly since they'd have to decide front or back, or above for a 1 frame (during DP start up for example...) Izuna drop. Also, the dive was never supposed to be a belly flop move with a large floating UFO hitbox that flies across the screen, it was always mean to be a swiping attack from the air. The animation should be adjusted as well, hands below him should have more active frames and a hitbox on the claw, and needs to swipe outwards as originally intended. This means that if a Claw player does happen to dive overhead, they have to aim perfectly a thin hitbox way above the character during the start of the swipe animation, and the Claw player would have to be much better at changing the time of the wall dive loop since it would then become much, much more varied. Also, if the start of the swipe hits, it doesn't knock down, but if the last frames of the swipe animation hit, it does knock down. That way, if Claw does happen to hit overhead, he doesn't knock down and he'd have to be so high in the air that by the time he lands and recovers he gets punished anyway.

    Another example is Dictator. The dude needs a reliable AA. It's bad enough that he can get easily corner trapped but the poor guy can't even keep jump spammers off him. I'm not saying he needs a reversal, no one should have an invulnerable reversal, even Claw in case you think I'm biased - all the guy needs is a close range AA that has fast start up, decent priority, slow recovery, and low damage output so that it can't be abused and make him over powered. Something to just keep people off him, but takes skill to execute and rewards a good player who excels at timing a well place normal. It would also be nice if you could steer his head stomp similar to how you can steer wall dive.

    Lots of the wake up game problems could also be helped if there was the SF4 style of quick get up and hard knock down. If that was introduced, then wall dive looping would be completely different and not guaranteed since a quick get up would get the player off the ground before the next dive happens and they can retaliate. Dictator would also be able to quick get up and get to the air before the opponent tries to jump spam him, or in the case of Dic vs Gief, Gief gets a knock down and walks across the screen by the time Dictator gets up.

    Yet another example. Shotos shouldn't have DP hit low sweeps. Not saying people should be able to sweep them for free, but DP is an amazing AA tool, not an all purpose tool. Hitbox should be changed to hit from the waist up. They have plenty of other tools useful on wake up, like Tatsu start up hopping over sweeps, or they can simply block like other characters.

    One thing that absolutely infuriates me is how a lot of characters have moves that you can execute on the start of a jump and how that same move stays active for the entire damn jump arc. Like Chun-Li's j.lk. Seriously, what the hell. That's a derpy move if I ever saw one. It takes no skill at all, you just do it at the start of your jump and it stays active the whole way through. How about non of that crap, and the player has to time when to kick? Same with DeeJay's j.lp, Ryu's j.lp, stuff like that. Short, weak attacks are supposed to come out fast, maybe so that you could do something like, do an "empty" jump, the other player decides to jump too and execute a slower, stronger attack, and the first jumper predicts that and times it so the the quicker, weaker one to beats it while the slower attack starts up. That's the point on speed over power. Not something that takes no skill to do.

    Boxer's headbutt has iframes, to get through fireballs. However, it ends up being an all purpose tool to corner rape characters. He already has great frame advantage on pokes and rushdown, why should he be able to then follow up with an invincible move that 90% of the cast can't punish? So, giving him a way to get through fireballs ended up making him braindead for some stuff, whiff a rush oh follow up with head butt in corner and then head bash. How about, he gets to use headbutt to go through fireballs, but it isn't invincible it can still be punished low or something? If fireballs are a problem for characters, invulnerability added to moves isn't the answer, a new property needs to be added to allow some moves to go through fireballs but still get punched in the face by a physical attack. Like Honda, maybe jab and strong headbutt should go through fireballs, but fierce shouldn't. That way, a Honda player can use strong headbutt to punish a fireballer who uses strong or fierce since they have more frame recovery, but say the fireballer catches on and decides to throw out a jab fireball, Honda tries to hit through it, the fireball recovers and jabs Honda in the face. Jab headbutt alone still is very hard to get in, and strong headbutt has the most start up already so so the fireballer should be able to recover using a jab fireball, and punish. But if the fireballer decides to keep throwing out fierce, they should be punished by the strong headbutt.

    Just a few opinions on what's wrong with the game. There is a whole lot more crap that I feel should be adjusted, but nearly all the problems in this game aren't fixable unless it gets some kind of new engine that allows for multiple hitboxes, better hurt box layout over the sprites, and new move properties added to old ones and old ones changed to compensate for any weakening of what used to make characters "good." Also, every change I've thought up would take skill to make use of, get rid of the derpy stuff, help characters out on some match ups while not overpowering them on other match ups they already have a good time on, and I've thought of ways those changes could be punished too if someone was to try to abuse or spam them.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Sure, but as you've stated, it involves basically making this game into something it isn't.

    You lead a faulty premise, though, that the game can't be balanced simply because you can't rewrite the entire game engine, or introduce mechanics from other games. Any of these would make an entirely new game, not rebalance this one.

    I don't agree with most of your conclusions, as they really take away some of the essence that is SFII. You're the first person I've seen on here who wanted to completely overhaul light aerial moves because they are "derpy." I like your thought processes involving risk and reward, though. I just feel that much of what you addressed directly wasn't related to balance, but just complaining about game properties inherent to the game.

    How about instead of reprogramming the game completely and making it into something it isn't, you play with what we have to work with, and come up with some conclusions that could actually be implemented. Or, hey, don't worry about it, and go back to playing some other game that has the properties you're looking for.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    How bout we nerf slides too, I hate slides.

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  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Sure, but as you've stated, it involves basically making this game into something it isn't.

    You lead a faulty premise, though, that the game can't be balanced simply because you can't rewrite the entire game engine, or introduce mechanics from other games. Any of these would make an entirely new game, not rebalance this one.

    I don't agree with most of your conclusions, as they really take away some of the essence that is SFII. You're the first person I've seen on here who wanted to completely overhaul light aerial moves because they are "derpy." I like your thought processes involving risk and reward, though. I just feel that much of what you addressed directly wasn't related to balance, but just complaining about game properties inherent to the game.

    How about instead of reprogramming the game completely and making it into something it isn't, you play with what we have to work with, and come up with some conclusions that could actually be implemented. Or, hey, don't worry about it, and go back to playing some other game that has the properties you're looking for.

    A faulty premise? I disagree, there really isn't any rebalancing ST, and to bring the gap between high tier and low tier, then the game needs to go back to the drawing board. Yes, a rebalance of the nature I suggest would no longer be ST. That's the point. It would be the next iteration of the SF2 series. Remember WW, and then CE? In WW, Ryu and Ken were essentially the same. CE is when they started doing things to make them different, like Ken having more horizontal priority on his DP and Ryu having a slow, more powerful vertical DP. CE introduced the 4 boss characters as playable. Characters got new moves and move properties were changed. Lots of stuff was retouched. It was no longer WW. Then Hyper came out. Hyper introduced loads new shit, it was no longer WW, or CE. Then Super came out. Characters like Boxer and Claw got a whole new set of normals compared to WW, CE, and Hyper. 4 new characters were introduced. Ryu and Ken became even more different. None of these changes were to rebalance WW. They were changes to the SF2 series as a whole, introducing new elements, new balances, and new unbalances.

    Changing ST means it isn't ST anymore. If you're going to change it, you might as well address the issues and make a new entry into the series and do what the previous ones did, and introduce new elements to the gameplay like a new hitbox engine, new normals for characters, maybe a few new animations or command moves. At least my suggestions reward skill, and balance/counter-balance risk and reward. I'm not complaining about the game, I like ST. I just think, people should stop thinking of how to rebalance the current game, because it simply won't work without some engine adjustments that are beyond simply changing hitboxes, i-frames, and knock downs. Dictator is a good example. He needs a good AA, and he won't get it with out some kind of lame ridiculous hitbox adjustment to a normal or giving him a reversal which would only end up making him OP with the current ST engine.

    This is all theoretical anyway, and beyond the scope of a hack. Also, I doubt you'd get anyone in the community to actually agree on a universal set of changes to the game and any sort of support for people actually playing it. If it came down to majority rules, then any objectivity is lost. Like Claw's wall dive. Most people hate knock down, but the problem isn't the knock down, the problem is the wall dive's ambiguity. You take that away, and the wall dive has become much less dangerous even while keeping the knock down property. I don't see enough people actually being objective in this thread, instead they complain about stuff they don't like people doing to them.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    Just like champion edition got a lot of new animations right.

    Bison is a good example of someone who should NOT be given a good anti air, because he turns into honda. I don't think you want more hondas in your game.

    Man these two posts are awful. Like, just things like this quote:
    Also, the dive was never supposed to be a belly flop move with a large floating UFO hitbox that flies across the screen, it was always mean to be a swiping attack from the air.

    Literally has not changed since world warrior, so what the fuck are you talking about. Not only is trying to make something match a made up ''Designer intent" (you talked to the designers so you know what well dive hitboxes are supposed to be? They couldn't figure it out for 6 games?), but it has been a solid box forever


    Oh and this is a classic:
    instead they complain about stuff they don't like people doing to them.
    Oh I am glad you are here to tell us what's wh-oh wait you said this:
    Like Chun-Li's j.lk. Seriously, what the hell. That's a derpy move if I ever saw one. It takes no skill at all, you just do it at the start of your jump and it stays active the whole way through. How about non of that crap, and the player has to time when to kick?
    Yeah totally overpowered, it is bad to have things that are good on a character, it isn't like if you jump as chun li you are risking getting knocked down and losing vs many characters
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Just like champion edition got a lot of new animations right.

    Huh?
    Bison is a good example of someone who should NOT be given a good anti air, because he turns into honda. I don't think you want more hondas in your game.

    You obviously don't read. Did I write Dictator needed an overpowered AA? No, I wrote something with short start up, long recovery, and weak ass damage. Only to be used as a tool to get someone off him, like a spam jumping Gief for example. Would that make him OP? Hell no, it would just enable him to keep jumpers off him, however, he'll still have to deal with fireball trap and tick SPD corner traps. It isn't a reversal, or some kind of get out of jail free card. It would require good timing to pull off because of the long recovery of the move. This is why I mention balances and counter-balances.

    Pay attention.
    Literally has not changed since world warrior, so what the fuck are you talking about. Not only is trying to make something match a made up ''Designer intent" (you talked to the designers so you know what well dive hitboxes are supposed to be? They couldn't figure it out for 6 games?), but it has been a solid box forever

    And... maybe you should go double check wall dive in WW. The first frame of animation actually does hit. And, the only reason it has been a solid box forever is because the game has a total of 6 boxes per frame only. 3 hurt boxes, 1 hit box, 1 push box, and 1 throw box. On top of that a lack of sprites for additional frames of animation, and it ends up being a UFO more than a swiping air attack. Check this WW image.

    34xnaee.png

    See the claws above the health bar? That's the first frame of the wall dive attack. It hits, and you can see the hit confirm spark. This is before you see the second half with his arms wide.

    35cg7dh.png

    It was always meant to be a swiping attack, not a flying UFO hitbox. Oh oh oh, but I guess you know everything since you think the attack has been the same through 6 iterations of the game.
    Yeah totally overpowered, it is bad to have things that are good on a character, it isn't like if you jump as chun li you are risking getting knocked down and losing vs many characters

    Dude you should get someone who understands English to read for you. I wrote it takes no skill to stick out an attack at the start of a jump that lasts until the jump ends, never having to think about when to time it. I'm saying that kind of stuff should go, not that it's overpowered. Did I write it was overpowered? Can you please quote where I wrote that was overpowered? No, you can't because it doesn't exist. Attacks should be timed, and skill should be rewarded. Oh but I guess it's ok to have that stuff in the game because some characters can punish derpy shit.

    Huge lack of objectivity in this topic. Too bad you can't read, either.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    You are still arguing from the standpoint that the game needs an engine overhaul to allow for a significant balance change.

    The bosses in WW have all sorts of crazy properties we never got as players because they'd be broken. Look at the size of Sagat's Tiger Shots, and how he doesn't project his limbs at all. The fact that Claw could hit before his swipe animation (which also includes his "UFO" hitbox that stays out the entire way to the ground) in the oldest, roughest game in the series is not a good place to discern the finer points of "designer intent" as you do. Perhaps everyone should weigh the topic more objectively.

    Attacks about understanding English...man, really? "Attacks should be timed, and skill should be rewarded." Absolutely. When you use a jumping light attack, all of that is very much in play. You're really just nit-picking the fact that you don't like floaty or extended-hit moves. Maybe they're not totally realistic, but neither is chucking a fireball, or taking more damage from being hurled through the air than landing on your back from about two stories up.

    Really, this can play out two ways. You can say "whatever," grumbling at the fact that no one is buying in to your engine-overhaul game theory, and dismiss this thread. Your subject matter is barely on-topic as-is, though at least with Dictator you're attempting to come up with something more reasonable...

    ...which leads to the second thing, and what I hope from anyone who has good experience and a crop of ideas. You toss out specifics, either a problem that needs remedied, an idea for a new toy for someone, and how you'd go about all of that. You adapt your case by tempering those ideas off of what others here bring to the table. When you make assumptive claims about designer intent, or enter a thread about rebalancing basically stating that it's impossible in its current form, you're going to get pounced on. Shrug it off, give us some specifics we can get behind, and everyone will be better for it.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Yeah, English. It's not my fault CWheezy isn't paying attention and attacking something I never wrote.

    I've given tons of specifics already, and every change I give a reason to why it can't be abused.

    How can no one see that the wall dive is a swipe move from the air? Anyone can see the intent behind the move is an air slash, not a belly flop. That's not even arguing designer intent, it's showing what the move is. All the post SF2 iterations are like that, a swipe, especially since they have more frames for animation and even air slash effects. SF2 has limited animation frames because of ROM space, if you've read designer interviews you'd see that they were working with space limitations. You want a source? How about SF: Eternal Challenge. That specific enough?

    Again, with a new engine you could code multiple hit boxes for attacks, such as a box on each hand so there isn't a box that crosses his chest. It could keep knock down and get rid of the problems ST has with wall dive loop. If there was no hit box on his chest, then you can't do the ambiguous sector 2 cross up. That means it will take a matter of skill to hit the move low when someone gets up, but it will still be a choice of front or back depending on which hand you use. Also, because you have to choose front or back, that means the defender can see better which side to block, although that doesn't mean that the slash motion from a skilled player won't be any easier to deal with, but at least the guessing game of the sector 2 wall dive cross up wouldn't be an issue.

    I only used the WW reference because it shows intent that the start of the slashing animation was meant to hit, even if they went about it in an ass backwards way. The startup doesn't need a huge rectangular hit box, it could have a very small one on the hand that doesn't have a knock down property. Again I posted another specific earlier that for the start to even safely hit a Claw player would need to hit very high at the head, which would then leave him vulnerable and next to the opponent on the recovery of the wall dive, say it's Gief, free SPD. But say you do it deep, then the second hit could possibly hit as well causing a knock down. Only problem is, getting that deep would be extremely risky, risking being hit by an AA since during start up the first hit would be a small hit box compared to plenty of hurt box on Claw's body. The defender would have to make the mistake of allowing it to happen. Big risk, good reward, Claw scored a knock down. How can you get any more specific than that?

    That's a very specific example, one I gave several posts above. Dictator was another. Funny how you say people should weigh more objectively, yet I'm being very objective here. I've given specific examples, not being biased, and I've backed everything up with factual information.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    Why do you keep arguing that no one sees that the wall dive is a swipe move from the air? No one's arguing otherwise.

    The move in its later SFII iterations (unlike WW, which has your pre-slash hitbox active the entire time he's coming down until he swipes, neither of which knock down) only hits on the slash part, and only for six frames. Since his hands start from below him, it makes sense to have that "UFO hitbox," as it covers the area of both of his hands' travel. Even if the engine were redone and allowed pixel-perfect, frame specific hitboxes, his hand still starts below him. It would be more difficult, but still possible to cross up with. You're wanting to make a singular swipe motion a two-hit combo so that first swiping part couldn't knock down, but the second hit could. That's a very convoluted way of dealing with something that has already been dealt with by simply returning the wall dive to the state it had prior to CPS-2: to simply not knock down at all, unless you connect with the Izuna Drop.
    Moonchilde wrote:
    Did I write Dictator needed an overpowered AA? No, I wrote something with short start up, long recovery, and weak ass damage. Only to be used as a tool to get someone off him, like a spam jumping Gief for example.

    You mean like the ones he already has? It's good that you're listing things you recognize as issues, and giving a few ideas for how to correct them. In the case you've mentioned here, though, you can see that he has options there. Part of the reasons we bounce ideas like this is because no one person knows the game perfectly well. If you could add your bolded move listed in the quote, what would it be? How would it work, exactly, at least in theory?

    The fact that SFII has limited ROM space does not suddenly validate any claims you make about claiming to know what a designer intended with a specific move regarding cross-up capabilities and such. If you have any documented instances of a designer or programmer regarding specific move properties, please quote them, and that objective print will be undeniable. Otherwise, you could infer anything and "back it up" with such a general ground.

    You don't rebalance a game by making it into a completely new one. You want to talk about doing a new engine, do it somewhere else, because it's off-topic. I won't respond to any more conversation about it, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Using the boss version as an excuse to say it was designer's intent and should be put in again on the playable version. You know what? Let's have Magneto get his force field back that grants him invincibility till the end of the round, cause he had on the original version in COTA.

    Lmao that is some stupid logic right there.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

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  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    You wanted new animations in HDR when only like two games in the sf2 series use new animations for anything

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7131649/Hitbox Pictures/sf2-09-23-054203.png

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7131649/Hitbox Pictures/sf2-09-23-054221.png

    I agree vega should go back to these hitboxes.

    I like moonshilde attacking me because he thinks jumping and kicking with chun requires no skill at all. Have fun getting dp'd by old sagat and then never being able to move for a match.

    Anyway Jizzon I said I would playtest your rom with you, what the hell why do you hate me
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    *snip*

    The youtube video only shows that his AA options are mostly standing far punches and situations that aren't practical in a real match. I don't know any opponent who will jump in that far away on Dictator. No one does, except maybe Chun-Li because her jump kicks have ridiculous hit boxes and her jump range is so large. Everyone knows Dictator has totally crap close range AA, so they'll jump in at a close distance because Dictator has extremely few options. The ones Dictator already has are extremely spacing specific and some of those are even character specific, like cr.mk working as an AA, but against few instances like Hawk's j.lp. Giving him something like a standing close jab that is similar to say, shoto standing close jab, would help keep characters from jumping all over him in the corner or directly over him elsewhere in the arena. Just a small tool to help in that situation.

    As for wall dive, even in it's non-knock down state, it still has the same cross up potential and guessing game, and a sector 2 wall dive functions as a tick throw on hit and on block, so the opponent still ends up on the ground. This is an issue because of the hit box, and ST only allows for 1 hit box per attack frame.

    I also double checked the hit boxes for WW wall dive.
    adzuaf.png
    37vvl.png
    wthohd.png
    I originally mis-interpreted what you wrote so I took snaps, but now I see what you're saying. Still, the hands start up I don't think would be very useful as a cross up, on top of that they'd have to hit high during his dive and would be unsafe on recovery. Most likely it would be similar to Dictator's head stomp. On top of that, you could make it so the damage output on the initial hands would be weak, just in case it did have some minor cross up potential, and of course it would be easy to punish on recovery since he would still have to land. To be useful to get a second hit would require to be very deep. Let me show you what I mean by fixing wall dive. You'll have to excuse the crappy SNES sprite, lol, it's really terrible compared to arcade goodness, but you should get the idea.
    714fud.png
    As you can see, without the hit box across the chest you eliminate on of the biggest balance issues in the game.

    As for what you can do with the tools you have? I'm not sure. This is why I think for the game to get truly balanced would require a new engine, additional move properties like passing through fireballs but not physical attacks, and additional sprite material. Otherwise, you're working on extending hit boxes for some moves and shrinking them for others, and giving characters invincibility to work through fireballs. Invincibility isn't an answer IMO, because look at Boxer. He needed a way through master fireball zoners, so they allowed headbutt to have invincibility (since there isn't a property for simply passing through a fireball) which allowed him to simply corner rape even characters with reversal moves that have some invulnerable frames during start up.
    Using the boss version as an excuse to say it was designer's intent and should be put in again on the playable version. You know what? Let's have Magneto get his force field back that grants him invincibility till the end of the round, cause he had on the original version in COTA.

    Lmao that is some stupid logic right there.

    I guess you don't understand context do you? I'm not even going to bother clarifying for you.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    The kd is worse than the crossup. When walldive kd's, you have to deal with the same 50/50 again. When it does not kd, vega gets his damage reward and then has to work to get the same mixup instead of getting it for free. This has the bonus effect of the walldive still feeling very powerful to vega players.

    Removing the knockdown removed his ambiguous walldive loop, making vega much more fair, plus adjustments to other characters.

    WRT invincibility, you don't seem to understand that balrogs mp and fp headbutts are basically fine, because they have hurtboxes during the active frames. It almost seems like a bug to me, but balrog jab headbutt being 100% invincible during all active frames is a mistake. If it was changed to still be invincible but have the same properties of the mp and fp headbutts, it would be totally fine
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    The kd is worse than the crossup. When walldive kd's, you have to deal with the same 50/50 again. When it does not kd, vega gets his damage reward and then has to work to get the same mixup instead of getting it for free. This has the bonus effect of the walldive still feeling very powerful to vega players.

    Removing the knockdown removed his ambiguous walldive loop, making vega much more fair, plus adjustments to other characters.

    WRT invincibility, you don't seem to understand that balrogs mp and fp headbutts are basically fine, because they have hurtboxes during the active frames. It almost seems like a bug to me, but balrog jab headbutt being 100% invincible during all active frames is a mistake. If it was changed to still be invincible but have the same properties of the mp and fp headbutts, it would be totally fine

    Thanks for being more civil, I appreciate that. I disagree about the knock down. If you looked at my theoretical example, there would be no way for the Claw player to ambiguously cross up the opponent, since in order to get the hit boxes to register you'd either have to be in the front or back, and because of how wide the attack is, the ambiguity is lost. It would be easily advertised which side the player is going to, and the opponent should be able to block the attack much easier. Then, it boils down to the Claw opponent's wake up game and skill, can they reversal or counter? If they miss, they get hit by a deep wall dive and get knocked down. If they learn they can't reversal consistently and don't have the skill for it, they can block. If both players are skillful, then there is potential to still loop, but you'd have to work so much harder for it since blocking the dive would be that much easier. The Claw player would have to be really crafty.

    The main issue with the current knock down is that the hit box is so huge, you can shake the stick back and forth over sector 2 to create a guessing game, and the opponent will most likely not know which side to block. And, even without knock down, you still get the cross up, and Claw lands right next to an opponent still in stun and Claw gets a throw, regardless if the dive is blocked or hits during wake up. Rinse, repeat.

    As for Boxer's head butt, there is more than enough invulnerable frames and because of it's horizontal travel, that it beats out nearly every reversal option in the corner. Check the hit boxes again, the vulnerability doesn't happen until about 3/4ths of the way through the Strong and Fierce versions. The range will beat even DP reversals because of the hurt boxes behind them, I think the only really safe reversal option against them is O.Shoto's DP because they have no hurt boxes at all during the ascent of the DP. Obviously the current game can't allow it to simply pass through projectiles but be punished by physical attacks, so maybe what can currently be done is giving it more recovery frames, or, on block or hit, it gets knocked back so he can't head bash on recovery at least.

    http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/st/balrog/#Buffalo Headbutt (Bull Charge)
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    I guess you don't understand context do you? I'm not even going to bother clarifying for you.
    You asking for changes to an engine you have no understanding of and yet you trying to play this high ground is quite funny. FYI the changes you're asking for are not going to happen.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    You asking for changes to an engine you have no understanding of and yet you trying to play this high ground is quite funny. FYI the changes you're asking for are not going to happen.

    Really? I mean, really? Really really? Because I thought the topic was Rebalancing ST Remix, which is entirely theoretical, and not likely to happen. I also wasn't asking for anything, just sharing thoughts. I also have a fairly good understanding of the engine, thank you.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Tell me what this does then.
    move.b  ($104,A6), D0
    move.w  (-$40,PC,D0.w), D1
    jsr     (-$44,PC,D1.w)
    tst.b   ($105,A6)
    bne     $2b422
    move.b  ($8,A6), D0
    cmp.b   ($23,A6), D0
    beq     $2b448
    move.b  D0, ($5b,A6)
    move.b  D0, ($23,A6)
    move.b  ($9,A6), ($24,A6)
    

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Tell me what this does then.
    move.b  ($104,A6), D0
    move.w  (-$40,PC,D0.w), D1
    jsr     (-$44,PC,D1.w)
    tst.b   ($105,A6)
    bne     $2b422
    move.b  ($8,A6), D0
    cmp.b   ($23,A6), D0
    beq     $2b448
    move.b  D0, ($5b,A6)
    move.b  D0, ($23,A6)
    move.b  ($9,A6), ($24,A6)
    

    Is that code assembly?

    There's a good chance 95% of srk has no idea how to follow that.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Yes that is assembly.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Yes that is assembly.

    What's jsr?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Jump to subroutine

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I was curious about something.

    Are cps games coded from assembly or did they use a language of some kind and is it possible to reverse compile the rom into that language?

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    The 68k used in cps is to slow to be using another language of course they had comments to help decipher the code. The first time I heard of converters to other languages was the Saturn era. Travelers Tales used a 68k to C converter(provided by Sega) to port 3d blast to the PC and Saturn.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Guess ill have to learn this assembly editing

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    You guys lost me at the code assembly LOL.

    I'm fine with Vega's Wall Dive hitboxes the way they are, I'm also fine with allowing him to knock down.

    What I would propose to re-balance ST N.Vega would be to delay the start up of the Wall Dive. According to the ST Wiki, Wall Dive has 3 frames of startup (for comparison Bison's Devil's Reverse has 45 frames of startup once you push Punch in the air). I would increase that to 10 frames, and on top of that I would also decrease the speed and mobility Vega has once he pushes Punch in the air.

    I think the effect this will have is that once Vega has knocked down an opponent, and goes off the wall to try to meaty crossup with an ambiguous Wall Dive, he has to press Punch much earlier, and once he presses Punch he can't strafe back and forth as fast he can now (but he can still do it). In other words, he can still do an ambiguous crossup Wall Dive and he keeps his knock down property, but once he pushes Punch he will move slightly slower through the air (still pretty fast tho). It will be slightly harder to mixup the opponent and should allow characters to get their reversals out more easily.

    It would still be risky to reversal cuz if you screw up Vega will get the knock down and go for another, not to mention some reversals can get stuffed or will whiff completely, but I think it will remove some of the guesswork when blocking or reversing a meaty Wall Dive. Everything else should stay the same IMO.
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    So amongst many, many other changes I've made to a tweaked version of ST (including many of the HDR changes), I gave Honda his ability to hit on the way up with the roundhouse buttslam.

    It's ridiculous, and I can totally understand why it didn't make the final cut. There is a hitbox for it in the game data, and when "reactivated," it gives Honda the ability to trap similarly to HF Blanka's up-rolls, as well as knock down anyone standing very quickly from half a screen away...through fireballs.

    I nerfed the damage, and trimmed down the size of that hitbox from the bottom up, but it's still just gross. I took the adjustments and gave the move to O.Honda instead, since he has no super, floating fierce, or jab headbutt that goes through fireballs. Since his hitbox on the way down is less wide, you can't trap nearly as well with him, so it's a bit more fair. It's still so powerful it might have to come back out, though.

    For HDR Honda, though? It's just too good, without altering the move to make it unrecognizable.
  • TNBTNB Bye. Joined: Posts: 1,180
    Ryu- Nothing was done to this guy in HDR really, save the fake fireball. And that was kinda unecessary although it is a tool he can use.

    Deejay- They did a pretty good job.

    Ken- Not as many invinc. frames on the shoryus. possibly get the throw range back. something could be done about the super. I think while in testing for ST Capcom had something like HDR ken but toned him down for the final release.

    T. Hawk- Un-nerf him. Having a whiff animation takes away much of the power behind this character and the incentive to play him.

    Honda- ... um ridiculous invinc frames on the heabutt... wut? Maybe it's me but this just seems a bit odd. and did they fix the super being so easy to beat in hdr?

    Chun- Chun didn't need a lot of the stuff she was given but it's fun to mess with and it adds to what she can do. Still, all she really could want would be a non meter reversal with a little invincibility. So if we were to take the St template, maybe make one of the the sbk's have with some invinc frames on it.

    Rog- Rog is Rog. Rog didn't become too much lesser or greater in his rogginess.

    Vega- HDR did not stop the yoomaster from yooing all over everything. possibly make it not as safe to do.

    Sagat- kinda iffy about those juggle combos.

    Sim- Dunno if I'm qualified to talk about this much.Not as good as ST but he is ridic in St.

    Guile- The hk flash is ridic. Fun to play with but you can win some matches with the range on this alone.

    Bison- at one point this guy was going to get a fake slide. That would have been a nice tool for him. He still has the weakness of being easily caught in traps.

    Gief- Gief got BUFF'D in this. Is it too much though?

    Blanka- Blanka is better in general at this but it brings to mind the question of player skill/randomness vs tiers. Technically Blanka is more than able up-close to mix up and rush down on about anybody in ST even if he may have some initial difficulty (maybe save Honda).

    Cammy- Cammy wasn't really taken care of imo in this. She feels kinda unfinished in St and she does here as well.
    - Buff the spin knuckle so it actually goes through moves.
    - possibly have the lk cannon spike go under projectiles with really good timing.
    - a dive from the hooligan flip could work but it would have to be balanced REALLY well. (sup ae 2012 cough)
    - maybe some mild buffs to some normals. her normals imo are pretty good, it's not like she's buttonless.

    Fei Long- Sirlin thought he debuffed the trap. He didn't. While it isn't possible to do hp xx wing as much as in ST, lpxx wing keeps going... and going.. and going..
    He also seems to be ignorant of the fact that ion ST, Fei only gets a set number of reps. It takes player input/ mixup to keep it going and fei needs to do a lot of damage when he gets in. because of how few his chances are of getting in to begin with.

    What Fei actually needs is a non-meter invincible move. I'd suggest lk or mk flame kick as to giving it to the lk chicken wing, because doing so, while being beneficial to Fei, would end up making his trap even crazier. Keeping with the general theme of Fei this move would generally need to be well timed in order for it to go through a douken or some other move.
    Skills and attitude prove worth as a player, not the internet.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Dictator has good enough anti-air tools in ST. He has slide, PC and SK to evade jumps from close up, diagonal strong and RH to hit jumps from further away, and his great neutral RH to hit enemies on the head if they jump from the wrong reason - and almost any distance is wrong if Dictator is not caught in the recovery of a move. If he needs something, then make his st.Fierce easier to trade.

    Ryu needs his cl.Fierce, it saves him in the corner and when he does not have enough time to do a SRK. It could get the stun nerf on the last active part too, since it causes a reset and creates a big opportunity of dizzying the enemy. If the KD on the red Hadou can be made like a sweep, he would be OK,* IMO. His tatus should't be touched, too, since the matches where it is most useful are close to even - or not, e.g., Dhalsim and Claw.

    I'm not sure what Fei needs. He can be really dangerous if OP'ed: one extra rekka connecting each round in average means Fei is top tier. He is already fair against Ken, so the projectile is not the issue, alone. The command on the Rekka kicks should be fixed, for sure. Also, KD on all Flame Kicks and same throw range as Guile, at least, and a 1-pixel shorter pushbox on his jump, so his cross-up does not miss so often. I believe he might suffer from the same screen scroll issue that affects Cammy. Finally, neutral Jab having a slightly shorter hitbox should help him avoid projectiles.

    O.Ryu is fine, just remove the unblockable tatsu.

    Safe on block Jab roll for O.Blanka would be a fair and safe change, IMO.

    *but the animation would be ugly
  • exdeathexdeath Joined: Posts: 6
    edited January 3
    One of the problems with balancing are the old version of characters.
    This game (HD remix) was suposed be a "fixer".

    Anyway what you do with the old characters?
    1-Leave them EXACTLY like Super Turbo Old characters were?
    2-Leave them EXACTLY like Super Turbo Old characters were but bug-fixing them?
    3-Change them to make them as close as possible to characters are the Super Street Fighter 2 (not turbo) ones?
    4-Change them to make them as close as possible to characters are the Super Street Fighter 2 (not turbo) ones, but bug-fixing them?

    If you pick any of those choices, those characters will not be balanced.

    If you balance everyone including old versions, the old guys lose their gimmick.
    Post edited by exdeath on
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 323
    NKI wrote: »
    Sirlin, I appreciate all the time and effort you put into Remix. "Thanks!" <-- That's my official thank you. Overall, the game is pretty good.

    With that out of the way, I feel that my complaints are legitimate, and definitely not defamatory. You did take some of our advice, but I know there were several people besides me who were upset because they felt that they weren't being listened to. This was exacerbated by the fact that we had paid our own way to get to NorCal specifically for the sake of helping out with Remix.

    Of course there will be disagreement amongst the players, but I would've hoped that you would weigh the advice accordingly. When dealing with Fei Long, if Jumpsuit Jesse and Graham Wolfe disagree on something, I would be more inclined to listen to Jesse. (No offense to Graham.) Or to take a real-life example: Seth, Buk, and myself (three actual Chun players) all said Chun got nerfed too hard. Buk and I specifically said that the new air SBK is going to hurt her badly against fireball characters, because she can't build meter while jumping over fireballs.

    Stuff like that is why I'm salty.

    Sorry for quoting something so old, but...Finally someone else who thinks Chun was weak in HDR. Just giving her decent reversal Upkicks and/or more invincibility on Super would've made up for inferior meter building, imo. Sirlin is a hack, he banned me from his forum for crushing him in a debate there, embarrassing him lol. He doesn't listen to anyone about anything regardless of their credentials or quality of their argument, he behaves illogically and runs on emotion. He's very disrespectful as well, quite rude.
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