Coming from Street Fighter? Not sure the difference between SF / BB?

koogykoogy BROKENTIER.COMJoined: Posts: 3,360
Here is a comparison I wrote for a random thread, and thought I'd share it with other newcomers to BlazBlue / Guilty Gear styled games!


key terms to learn!
okizeme: "attacking someone who is getting up from a grounded state"
abare: "converting random hits into big damage" (yes this is a VF term with a different meaning :c )


Street Fighter focuses on footsies and strong ground games. To become the best player at the game, you must master the range of characters, as one whiffed attack can be punished heavily. Also, ground strings are very simple and to the point, with limited mix-up potential after 1-2 hits. Combos generally only start from the ground, and are rewards for the opponent not blocking a cross-up correctly, or whiffing an attack at a terrible range. Counter-hits generally do not reward you in obvious ways. In some games, meter management is very critical also, as it allows you to have an advantage later in the round.

Guilty Gear series focuses on the same issues as above, but add the concepts of okizeme and abare. The goal is to knock the opponent down in any way, and set up your okizeme pressure. Imagine if you could use Ryu, and trip someone. Then, throw a fireball and cancel it, and jump at them. They have to guess 3 ways as to what you will do next. If they don't block that fireball, they get hit, and you get another knockdown and the process repeats. If you hit them with high, low, or throw... those are your okizeme options.

Guilty Gear also focuses on Abare, which is the concept of, say... Ryu hitting someone with a max range crouching forward. In most SF games, the most you'll get is a fireball / super. However, imagine you could cancel it the fireball (again) and go into a huge air combo. Converting that tiny hit into a much bigger combo is a huge deal. However, Guilty Gear lets you do many different ways. Sometimes though a perfect anti-air, you get a 15% combo. A perfect risky attack may lead to a counterhit, giving the attack ground bounce abilities, wall bounce abilities, wall stick, etc. Playing strong footsies with characters can lead to counterhits that lead to 50% damage.

Now, Blaz Blue adds additional concepts to traditional Guilty Gear game play. While Guilty Gear focused more on guaranteed okizeme situations, where the opponent has to deal with your attacks, Blaz Blue gives you 4 ways of getting off the ground. They have varying risks, but prevent the type of knockdown -> generic block attack -> mix-up game play that is prevalent in Guilty Gear. With a strong understanding of your risks, and the rewards, you can escape okizeme situations.

Another interesting concept is the one of "being helpless in a combo". Normally, when you play Guilty Gear. combos can last quite a while. There is never a reason to tech, because nobody practices techable combos that may do more damage, unless they suck. So, the best strategy is generally never tech. BlazBlue's ground system allows you to infinitely combo someone until they're forced to get up. Throws can also combo, and do not prorate; meaning they do full damage. However, to balance this, a combo'ed throw usually has a massive escape window; which is very very simple if you're awake.

So, simply, but allowing you to combo throws, you force the opponent to always be on their toes in the middle of combos.

:3 That was a bit much, but hopefully it made sense and is useful for you to understand the difference between games.
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Comments

  • ZankenZanken Joined: Posts: 278
    Oki is kinda the opposite of wakeup, so you should probably amend your definition. The dude getting up the floor is playing his wakeup game. The dude attacking the person getting up the floor is playing his oki game. The word oki is used because there isn't really an English equivalent.
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  • koogykoogy BROKENTIER.COM Joined: Posts: 3,360
    Oki is kinda the opposite of wakeup, so you should probably amend your definition. The dude getting up the floor is playing his wakeup game. The dude attacking the person getting up the floor is playing his oki game. The word oki is used because there isn't really an English equivalent.

    Edited, thanks for the suggestion. :3
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  • krazykone123krazykone123 4D Joined: Posts: 2,842
    Good stuff koogy, this should help out the BB newbies a lot :tup:
  • IndividualsIndividuals Fooey Fooey Joined: Posts: 27
    ah, one thing throws in a combo. yes they do full damage if used in a combo, but they do not reset combo damage, if you mean the damage scaling. doing a long combo that makes your damage near/at 0 damage then throwing, then combo'ing off that throw will still yield your damage to near/at 0 damage.
  • BlackalphaBlackalpha Stay Hungry Joined: Posts: 226
    Hey great post for beginners koogy, this should help them to understand this game or else there gonna quit very quickly. I just hope to not see flow chart Ken equivalents in this game, I suffered enough scrubbage
  • samiamx50samiamx50 Samwise I Am Joined: Posts: 63
    Very nice little write-up! I think this will help out a lot of people.
  • BlueFlamingoBlueFlamingo Bitter with age Joined: Posts: 1,916 mod
    This well definitely help SRK. Stickied for ease of use.
    shut up TGS
  • AshuraSenkuAshuraSenku Let's GO!! Joined: Posts: 505
    Thank you. I am grateful for all information on BlazBlue. I am really looking forward to this game. I played GG about once or twice, but nothing serious and I really want to get good at this game. I just got my TE stick too. 1 more day!
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    That was pretty helpful. I am super stoked for BB, I only ever played GG once, I found it was really strange. I'm really excited to start a new fighter.

    So alot of combos in BB start from the ground?
  • HBRDHBRD why Joined: Posts: 2,464
    I read this in the other thread earlier and thought "damn, this better get stickied or it's gonna come up every other hour."

    I guess it did, good stuff Koogy.
    So alot of combos in BB start from the ground?
    Yes, but there are strong air-to-ground setups as well as throw setups (throws can be combo-ed into and out of in BB). For example a basic drive loop for Tao is 4b+c xx 236cc xx 2d~9 j.c 8d~6 j.c 8d~6 236bbbbbb. 4b+c is the throw that starts it all off, and you buffer the 236cc that knocks the opponent into the air during the throw animation.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Just like in SFIV, hitconfirming things are super important too, because there are simple BnB combos that work on any situation vs. combos that work due to the added hit-stun from counter hits. This is probably my favorite aspect of GG/BB. You rush your hits and you end up doing a weak combo where if you were patient and hitconfirmed whatever you were doing, you can get some really good damage in.
  • BeautifulViolenceBeautifulViolence Will turtle you out. Joined: Posts: 391
    This is the sort of think I was hoping to see on this forum. If anyone has any other specific SF-to-BB analogies, that would be so helpful.

    There is a "KOFXII for SF Players" primer video somewhere out there that really did a great job for that game. I'm wondering if we'll see something similar.
  • AGentlerHatredAGentlerHatred Joined: Posts: 107
    Hey great post for beginners koogy, this should help them to understand this game or else there gonna quit very quickly. I just hope to not see flow chart Ken equivalents in this game, I suffered enough scrubbage

    I've heard Ice Ride spamming Jins are the new Flow Chart Kens. I'm just going to stick to player matches unless I'm really in the mood for hatemail though. I'm sure playing Nu will get me plenty. :rofl:
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  • jozujozu Joined: Posts: 60
    I've heard Ice Ride spamming Jins are the new Flow Chart Kens. I'm just going to stick to player matches unless I'm really in the mood for hatemail though. I'm sure playing Nu will get me plenty. :rofl:

    haha, during my stint at button mashing BB at the arcades ill admit I've done this before :sweat:
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,782
    i only played BB in the arcades for the first 3 days of release so take this with a grain of salt, but iceride spamming jin is definitely one of the flowchart tactics... the other big one is noel spamming drive... i expect to see a WHOLE LOT of noel mashers spamming her drive cause its HIGHLY effective at low levels of play and because of the fact that noel is such a cool looking character and her drive moves just look sick as well. noel spamming drive was pwning my never having played a GG game ass before. i also used mashed drives from her to give the better players alot more trouble than what i should have.







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  • otterotter CFN: otter- Joined: Posts: 4,645
    Guilty Gear players are funny.

    silly japanese word #1 = wake up games

    silly japanese work #2 = hit confirm
  • BlueFlamingoBlueFlamingo Bitter with age Joined: Posts: 1,916 mod
    Oki has also been used in tekken for quite some time as well...
    shut up TGS
  • PuFFPuFF Dan Marino Joined: Posts: 2,119
    Thank god this got stickied. I need all the help I can get >_<
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  • 4r54r5 FIGHTAN VIDYA GAEMS Joined: Posts: 2,579
    silly japanese work #2 = hit confirm

    Wait, I'm a Guilty Gear player and I don't know this one.
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  • SSRagnaSSRagna C'est La Vie Joined: Posts: 708
    Guilty Gear players are funny.

    silly japanese word #1 = wake up games

    silly japanese work #2 = hit confirm

    Silly you. Abare is converting a random hit to big damage or Attacking whilst at a disadvantage. It's not very similar to hit confirms.
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  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,625
    Very helpful I never got into gg because learning it was a bit overwhelming but thanks to this forum having threads like these I can get serious about BB:rock:
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  • yourmotheryourmother 大五 運命腹 Joined: Posts: 1,528
    Yeah oki means wakeup, abare is a little bit of a strange translation though. The verb abareru (turned into the noun abare) means to riot or to be violent, which makes more sense in the VF context, but w/e. Basically it's "violence," but our conception of that word doesn't always match up. You can see where it comes from though.

    I am, however, against the use of Japanese words to sound cool.
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  • RefraxionRefraxion FFF Ex Seismo SJC BK Joined: Posts: 359
    Yeah oki means wakeup, abare is a little bit of a strange translation though. The verb abareru (turned into the noun abare) means to riot or to be violent, which makes more sense in the VF context, but w/e. Basically it's "violence," but our conception of that word doesn't always match up. You can see where it comes from though.

    I am, however, against the use of Japanese words to sound cool.

    Yeah, I find it funny when some people use it and it just doesn't sound right, lol.
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  • koogykoogy BROKENTIER.COM Joined: Posts: 3,360
    Yeah oki means wakeup, abare is a little bit of a strange translation though. The verb abareru (turned into the noun abare) means to riot or to be violent, which makes more sense in the VF context, but w/e. Basically it's "violence," but our conception of that word doesn't always match up. You can see where it comes from though.

    I am, however, against the use of Japanese words to sound cool.

    It's been used in the way I described for many years in the Guilty Gear community. It is a terrible translation, but it works for describing what it needs to.
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  • yourmotheryourmother 大五 運命腹 Joined: Posts: 1,528
    It's been used in the way I described for many years in the Guilty Gear community. It is a terrible translation, but it works for describing what it needs to.

    Yeah I mean at this point obviously it's common vernacular in the GG community, VF too, so it's basically what you have to use. I've just been mad at this shit ever since I read sirlin's article on "yomi." For those of you who don't know, yomi (another common FG term), means "reading" in japanese. However, he started talking about it like "there's a special skill the Japanese possess that they use to predict your every move, and they call it...YOMI!" It's that kind of bullshit that people need to cut out.
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  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,311
    considering that the games that we play are made in japan, its not a surprise that we end using terms that they use, oki, yomi, abare, kara...

    i dont see it as big deal
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  • cozenycozeny I plink there4 I am Joined: Posts: 381
    I asked in the similar thread in the Fighting Games sub-forum but that seems to be a joke thread that is in danger of closing so I'll re-ask here: how difficult to execute are things like Carl's Clap loop in comparison to things like Fuerte's RSF and Viper's FFF?
  • 4r54r5 FIGHTAN VIDYA GAEMS Joined: Posts: 2,579
    easier then rsf

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  • cozenycozeny I plink there4 I am Joined: Posts: 381
    hah sadly not, fierce feint fierce
  • 4r54r5 FIGHTAN VIDYA GAEMS Joined: Posts: 2,579
    fierce feint fierce is easy, shrug

    I'm just going to say that FFF is about the upper level of BB's combo difficulty.

    The Advance Input feature is going to make things cozy for people. SF4 is all 1-frame links, and there's a glitch to turn the 1-frame window in to a 2-frame window. BB on the other hand, combos aren't entirely link-based and whatever less than 5-frame links there might be are essentially become a 5-frame link due to the built in feature.

    The hard part of BB's combos isn't doing them, but seeing when you have the positioning to do them.
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  • PelvicThrust69PelvicThrust69 Get Hype Joined: Posts: 390
    The hard part of BB's combos isn't doing them, but seeing when you have the positioning to do them.

    Not going to lie, that's one of the things I'm most looking forward to in this game. Call me a scrub if you will
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  • DarthTreyDarthTrey Sabaku Taiso!!! Joined: Posts: 924
    Not going to lie, that's one of the things I'm most looking forward to in this game. Call me a scrub if you will

    that's not scrubbish at all. If anything all SFIV's combo system does is add unneeded difficulty to a combo. They basically made you sit in training mode for 10 extra minutes for the same result. :sweat:


    What games like BB and GG do is make it make the game more about player vs. player.
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  • mooyang90mooyang90 Your fight money Joined: Posts: 813
    There are many one frame links in Blazblue...Noel's Throw-cancel into C loop comes to mind.

    This game is not for beginners. There's no easy shortcuts, and with the exception of Ragna and maybe Noel, the learning curve is high for all the characters.

    Be prepared to be in training mode for a good few weeks before you start racking up victories. Also, dustloop is a much better source for BB info.

    It's a fun game. Personally I find it a lot like Marvel (haven't ever touched GG).
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  • Black DogBlack Dog Hakumen Joined: Posts: 129
    Are there really one frame links in Blazblue? Do you have any frame data to back up that claim? I kind of doubt it but I can't say cause I don't have it yet. I think the closest thing GG got to one frame links were FRC's and even those weren't TOO bad. Besides, even if there are, 4r5 just said that they are accomplished pretty easily.
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  • HedgeshotHedgeshot Joined: Posts: 255
    Are there really one frame links in Blazblue? Do you have any frame data to back up that claim? I kind of doubt it but I can't say cause I don't have it yet. I think the closest thing GG got to one frame links were FRC's and even those weren't TOO bad. Besides, even if there are, 4r5 just said that they are accomplished pretty easily.

    Well, yes and no. There are really strict links, however, you can hold in a button and it will it repeat that input for 5 frames. So a 1 frame link is actually a 5 frame link.
  • 4r54r5 FIGHTAN VIDYA GAEMS Joined: Posts: 2,579
    I think the closest thing GG got to one frame links were FRC's and even those weren't TOO bad.

    GG has plenty of 1-frame links. Nearly every FRC is a 2-frame window.

    From how robot-like (or perhaps life-less?) you had to be to consistently do SF4 combos (before the discovery of plinking) to how consistently normal people could pull off FRC's with just a little practice; you can see how much just a difference of 1 frame widens the accessibility of the combo.

    Now imagine a 5-frame window. Combos shouldn't be a problem for anyone. The only really hard links left are the ones that require multiple actions to link two attack. I think Ragna has a few links that require you to land then do a dashing jump, or something.
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  • BrominatedBrominated Can't Understand Joined: Posts: 388
    I'm going to be picking this game up later this week, but since I've heard of it, I have always been worried about it being a "button masher" game. Is this true? My love for Street Fighter and Tekken comes from the overwhelming simplicity in the control scheme and the move control. Sure you can button mash in those games, but it wont get you far with an experienced player.

    What worries me with BlazBlue is that is seems once you get a combo started, you simply keep hitting buttons without a sense of precise combo control. Am I way off base? I'm not trying to downplay the game. Everyone seems to be raving about it and I'm quite excited to try it out. This has just been a genuine concern of mine.
  • HBRDHBRD why Joined: Posts: 2,464
    It is much easier to mash out a simple combo in BB than it is in SF, definitely. But as 4r5 said earlier, the difficulty isn't executing the more complicated combos, it's executing them at the right time with the right amount of space :tup:

    I would not call it a button masher at all. Trust me, it's deep.
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  • Warp2Warp2 Hachi-One Diver Joined: Posts: 115
    Brominated, you might want to consider renting it. IMO the game controls feel nothing like SF or Tekken so you might be disappointed if that's what you enjoy.
  • HedgeshotHedgeshot Joined: Posts: 255
    I'm going to be picking this game up later this week, but since I've heard of it, I have always been worried about it being a "button masher" game. Is this true? My love for Street Fighter and Tekken comes from the overwhelming simplicity in the control scheme and the move control. Sure you can button mash in those games, but it wont get you far with an experienced player.

    What worries me with BlazBlue is that is seems once you get a combo started, you simply keep hitting buttons without a sense of precise combo control. Am I way off base? I'm not trying to downplay the game. Everyone seems to be raving about it and I'm quite excited to try it out. This has just been a genuine concern of mine.

    Well, there is a big difference between doing 'a combo' and doing a 'good combo'. A combo can just be a few buttons mashed that does low damage and gets teched out of. A good (planned/known/practiced) combo can do a lot of damage, won't get teched, and will end predictably (e.g. in a knockdown/advantage).
  • AMillionHPAMillionHP Joined: Posts: 78
    (before the discovery of plinking)

    I'm sorry, i'm a bit ignorant on this, could you explain it for me? I dont have a stick so any combos that included jab or short hits were almost impossible for me. It's very frustrating to continously lose simply because i cannot do this.

    Very excited about BB though, got to play it early on Saturday and i was surprised to see that i could easily make up my own combos with just a few quick attacks followed by 1 or 2 strong ones.
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  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 22,311
    Am I way off base?

    yes you are :coffee:
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  • mooyang90mooyang90 Your fight money Joined: Posts: 813
    I'm sorry, i'm a bit ignorant on this, could you explain it for me? I dont have a stick so any combos that included jab or short hits were almost impossible for me. It's very frustrating to continously lose simply because i cannot do this.

    Very excited about BB though, got to play it early on Saturday and i was surprised to see that i could easily make up my own combos with just a few quick attacks followed by 1 or 2 strong ones.

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  • H. KnightH. Knight Modest Joined: Posts: 123
    Blazblue on a controller will never, ever work.

    I don't get where everyone gets that stick > pad. I've been doing just fine using pad and I'm a Viper player, not to mention a semi-regular GG player. I'd even argue some things are easier on a pad than stick.

    Is it because everyone goes for the D-pad instead of the analog stick or something? That's the only thing I can think of.
  • Digital717Digital717 Wannabe Viper Player Joined: Posts: 986
    You can definitely button mash in this game and get something to come out at times. I've hit combos that I never meant to hit by mashing, but will you beat a more experienced and more skillful player by mashing? Hell no. You can mash and get a little 4 hit combo that does no damage, but the experienced player will hit you with a 20 hit combo for a 1/3 of your life.
  • *Onslaught**Onslaught* Truly Outrageous Rushdown Joined: Posts: 900
    When should I be using throws? In SF I used them whenever my opponent was recovering and/or kara throw situations.
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  • comoesacomoesa not too bad.. Joined: Posts: 1,166
    BB has some good kara throws so use them in range.

    Most other times when you think they dont expect it..throws are pretty easy to break.
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  • DarthTreyDarthTrey Sabaku Taiso!!! Joined: Posts: 924
    Blazblue on a controller will never, ever work.

    I know a few people who would whoop your ass with a pad lol.:tdown:


    comments like that are just straight ignant....
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  • AshuraSenkuAshuraSenku Let's GO!! Joined: Posts: 505
    I've played street fighter 2 since it came out back in the day and this is no street fighter. button mashing will not work, maybe some characters like Noel where I've pulled out a 20hit just be hitting D, but it's not going to work all the time. You need to know what hits links into each other, and you have to know about spacing, when to jump, when to dash, just to extend your combo. This game is real deep, and you will need to take time to become very good.
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