XvsSF thread

N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jrJoined: Posts: 2,935
Official Canada Whining Thread(aka XvsSF thread)

Hey what are some good combos and infinites and strats for this game? I'm new to it, and would like to learn about it. umthrfkr should come here and drop science on Rogue, and how he beat Justin Wong...
SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
vietcong01: ok gl
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Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    What characters you want to know about? I know a lot 'o shit, so, if we're talking combos/strats/infs/whatever, you gotta give me a base. (I'm not too hot with Chun/Cammy/Rogue/Storm, though. Just so you know. Just about everyone else, though..)

    I've recently re-picked up Ken in the game.. My newest interest.. I'll rant about him for a minute if you want.. I generally play for fun, and leave the Infinites out.. But I'll list em for ya..

    [ NOTE: Ken is not 'Top Tier'. Top Tier doesn't neccessarily mean as much in XvsSF as it does in, say, MvC2, but nonetheless, many a person thinks Ken can't do anything in this game. I disagree. ]

    Main Corner Combo : c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward, Air Throw \/ c.jab xx ShinRyuKen \/ s.fierce -> s.roundhouse /\ Air Throw \/ c.jab xx ShinRyuKen \/ /\ j.up.roundhouse \/ Insert FS Ground Combo (If you mash on the ShinRyuKens, they won't live past the second one anyway.)

    The Air Throw -> c.jab xx ShinRyuKen is one of his most important combo links, and it works on absolutely anybody. You don't need it vs Cammy/Chun, though. You can just do Air Throw -> ShinRyuKen pretty easily.

    Useful Infinites : After FS Setup(SJ.up.roundhouse x 2 \/ )

    /\ j.jab -> j.up.roundhouse \/ [ /\ j.jab -> j.up.forward -> j.up.roundhouse \/ ] Repeat Brackets. You may need to add a j.short for heavy characters, and adjust for light characters, ect ect.

    If you catch a jumping opponent with any jumping attack, see if you can cancel it into a Roundhouse Air Hurricane and go into this..

    [ \/ /\ j.strong -> j.up.forward(Small Pause) xx Roundhouse Hurricane Kick(One Hit) ]

    Use that to get them into the corner, then do whatever. It's very possible to follow up a Juggle Air Hurricane hit with a ShinRyuKen.


    Strategems:

    Several ways to go about playing Ken.. Most of them need to be used at once for him to be effective..
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    Rushdown Poke Games - Ken's dash is tricky. There's a part at the beginning of it that you can't cancel out of. You need to learn the exact point at which you 'can', and know it well. Use that point, and use small dashes, to poke with c.jab -> c.short, or c.forward.. If it connects, cancel into ShoRyuReppa. If it get's blocked, and you're far, cancel into FB, or Short Ground Hurricane Kick(Don't get predictable with it. It's just there to provide a Fake Out option.) If you're close, follow through with Jab DP. Very little can be done to counter an XvsSF Jab DP, as long as it doesn't wiff.

    (A note about the ShoRyuReppa.. Don't do it on Heavy Characters. Juggernaut and Gambit are 'BIG' No Nos. Gambit can counter with a Jab Cajun Slash even if it connects.. He can counter with an Inf[Hard] if you're in the corner, or a generally nasty combo, all EVEN IF it connects. Juggernaut can counter with a HeadCrush, EVEN IF it connects. Or a throw.(Jugg Throw = Bad. Jugg Throw = Launch -> Air combo -> Bouncing Throw -> Jab Juggernaut Punch -> OTG -> Headcrush -> Dead) Mag/Sabre can counter with throws too.. Be careful of doing the super on heavy characters near the corner.)
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    Air Fireball Zoning - Ken's Air FB is pretty decent. Try to learn how to Super Jump and do it relatively low.. Often, Super Jumping Towards them, doing Jab Air FB, Fierce Air FB, and coming down on them is effective. It's also decent in playing Keepaway. By doing the FBs during a Super Jump, you have more control over how you come down, and can better setup the range of your j.roundhouse, or just land and play some poking. Also, I'm suprised how many people don't know how Normal Jumping FBs, work.. It's possible to do a normal jump, throw a Fireball, and block on the way down.. You just have to be careful that 'all' you do is a fireball.. Not j.jab xx Jab Air FB, ect.. Don't press the punch until the QCF has been fully completed, that way you can avoid a premature cancel, and can attack/block on the way down from the FB.
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    Corner DP Games - Ken's DP is very strong. It has a good horizontal range compared to other Shotos. Also, there is a mindgame that it works with in the corner. After a DP in the corner, it's possible to Super Jump and air throw them on the way up. It's also possible to just wait and do another DP. Test out your opponent a little to see how he reacts to falling next to you. Then, act accordingly. If he's defensive and blocks on the way down, next time, meet him with an air throw, ect. Next time, do the other. As a perpetrator of a 50/50 mindgame your opponent most likely isn't aware of, you have more than a 50/50 advantage. The only problem is that a Jab DP, against a standing opponent, does not always hit them high enough to start this mindgame. Sometimes they could use a boost. Another trick you can use with Ken's DP, is his Air Jab DP. A specific technique that can be very effective is doing a SJ, then a Jab DP an inch off the ground. It holds almost the same safety as your normal Jab DP, it avoids low pokes, and also, sends them flying extremely high. One way to do it is pressing Forward, Down, Down/Forward, Forward, Forward/Up, Jab. The DP motion takes precedence over the FB motion. I would advise against using 3K to SJ into it, as it results in frequent accidental ShinRyuKen activations, because that takes precedence over the DP motion.
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    Roll Counters - Ken's Punch Throw is his better ground throw.. It does slightly less damage, but he can OTG into Launch after it. This means two things.. One, that it opens up combos.. Two, it gives your opponent a reason to roll. Ken has one of the better Roll Counter games. After a Punch Throw into the corner, he has 4 viable options.

    One, immediately hold back and Dash away from the corner. If they roll, at the moment they recover, you can have a c.forward waiting for them on their 'Away from the Corner' side. That, xx ShoRyuReppa, and they're back in the corner, and primed for DP Corner Games.

    Two, immediately hold back, and wait a second before dashing away from the corner. If they roll, at the moment they recover, you can have a c.forward waiting for them on their 'Towards the Corner' side.

    Three, immediately hold back, and dash away from the corner as they roll. Right before they recover(You should be approximately right next to where they will recover), tap down to cancel the dash, and throw them as they recover. Preferably, with a Punch Throw into the corner. Familiar?

    Four, OTG them into Launch, and combo them to their death.

    Because the game doesn't enforce a character's space on the stage when they're in a Rolling state, it's possible to be standing 'right' where they will recover as they roll. The line between 'Left Side' and 'Right Side' is literally a pixel, and with practice, impossible for them to tell which side you'll be hitting and act in response. To make things 'worse', the state of them rolling past you reverses their controls. dashing with them and hitting them on their 'Towards the Corner' side 'often' forces them to block as if you were hitting their other side. You can also switch out the c.forward for a c.fierce.
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    Air Hurricane Movement - Ken's momentum is accellerated when doing an Air Hurricane. Against most characters, this can be a viable way to close in for his closer Poke/DP/Throw games. It is also a decent way to build meter. It's always best to cancel out of an attack on the way up when doing an air hurricane, though.. If only building meter.. When facing a cornered opponent, it's often very effective to give them an opening(The breather after a blocked Jab DP often fills this spot well), then jump and land an early j.roundhouse, xx Air Roundhouse Hurricane(Two Hits) \/ ShinRyuKen. You can also throw out a j.strong at them on the way up, and hurricane on the way down, just to keep the pressure on them and to make your Low Pokes more effective.

    Also, Ken's Air Hurricane is very good at crossing up opponents. At the right distance, a jumping roundhouse hurricane hits them in the back of the head. You'll land too far away to do a whole lot.. Except ShoRyuReppa. s.fierce xx Fierce FB works on heavier opponents that you shouldn't risk using that super on. Learn the distance vs enemy height that sets up this crossup, and play with it.
    ___________________________
    Miscellaneous - What did I forget.. Oh, Right, his Invincibility/Priority. It comes in 'very' useful. First, you need to know what Advancing Guard Cancel (AG Cancel) is. Every player should know it really. If it's not useful to you, which it probably will be, it will be used against you at the least.

    When you Pushblock(Advancing Guard.. 3P While Blocking, of course), in XvsSF, you recover a specific time after that. Regardless of what just hit you. Let's use Chun Li's QCF+KK Super as an example.(That annoying Rushing Super that's invincible at the end so you can't counter it after the fact) In the middle of blocking it, you hit 3P, and Pushblock it. If you let go of the controls, in a second, you'll recover from the pushblock, return to neutral state, and then eat the second half of the super. If you hold block, he'll pushblock, recover, then continue blocking. However, during that split second, you 'are' in Neutral state. With that said..

    Ken has ridiculous Priority in his Dragon Punch, and he has startup invulnerability in his ShoRyuReppa AND his entire ShinRyuKen. What this means.. Is that when you pushblock the middle of that Chun Li Super, during those few frames of Neutral State, you can hit her with a Jab Dragon Punch(Hell, a Fierce Dragon Punch), and stop her flatout. It also means, that you can input a ShinRyuKen, and Ken will be invulnerable as the super comes out(Two or three kicks wiff), then hit the Very Close Chun Li with the whole thing. Ken can interrupt 'anything' short of Beam Supers(You cannot AG Cancel a beam super), but, just as important, he can preemptively avoid much more. At Full Screen, if Storm does a Hail Storm, he can do a Strong Dragon Punch(You can even do it 'after' the Pause Screen Effect) and bypass the whole thing, taking maybe One hit of hail at the end. That means if Cyclops pulls a random Mega Optic Blast on you at full screen, you can ShinRyuKen your way out of it. That means if Juggernaut, or ANYBODY, comes at you with anything and you have 2 frames to respond, you can stop it with a DP. (Stopping Headcrushes with a DP is not hard. However, if you're already in neutral state and the chip damage won't kill you, it is, of course, better to block it and counter after. Try stopping a HeadCrush with a ShinRyuKen. That's a funny one.) Bypassing Magnetic Shockwaves with ShoRyuReppa.. Everything. A big part of playing Ken is working his DP/Supers to aid in evasion.

    Oh yeah, one more thing. His sweep opens up some options too. In the corner, you can do Sweep -> ShinRyuKen. Midscreen, you can do Sweep -> Fierce DP(OTG). Also, midscreen, you can do Sweep -> Jab DP, and cross them up for a meaty attack.. Wether or not you cross them up depends on how close you where when you did the sweep. You can play with that, and different strength DPs, and even different strength Hurricanes. Another pseudo trick is Sweep -> Jab Fireball. It doesn't connect at all, but they generally get the impression that you're vulnerable.. As soon as you recover, do a Jab DP, which will be 'right' before they get up. It'll stuff any Wake Up attacks, even knock them into the FB(They can block the FB, if they're expecting it), and at the worst, they block it and you're relatively safe.



    Eh.. I'm tired. That's about all I got for Ken right now. Except character specific combos, matchups, and good teamates.. (He has killer Vs Dhal and Vs Jugg combos) But I'll leave that for later. If anyone even wants it.


    Nice to see a XvsSF thread. Sorry for spamming it with too much info. :p

    P.S.: Screw typos, I'm lazy.

    Prozac Out
  • N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jr Joined: Posts: 2,935

    snip


    Nice to see a XvsSF thread. Sorry for spamming it with too much info. :p

    P.S.: Screw typos, I'm lazy.

    Prozac Out

    Bah, too much info? I was afraid that my first reply would be "yeah I like this game it's neat i use magnus because he is t3h zippy omgttyl!!":lol: That was Great Ken shit, much appreciated:D

    I should have been much more specific with what characters I'm interested in right now, I'd say that I'm interested in Gambit, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Magneto and Storm, one thing I have noticed about Storm though is that her MvC2 style "Flyaway then HP for a long time then throw in a LA and repeat til you fall" builds insane meter. Like you can get 3 bars in one rep. Is there a way to stop this that I'm missing, or is it really practical? Cause it seems like you could just do that, do a safe tagout to a meter hog, and then have fun. Since I'm a newbie to the game I might be totally off though...

    Oh your combo vid was cool:D
    SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
    vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
    vietcong01: ok gl
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I know a 'lot' with Gambit. He's probably one of my best 2 characters.(Ryu is tied with him in my skill level.. Charlie is my best without doubt).

    About Storm Keepaway.. Yes, it's pretty effective in XvsSF.. Gambit gives her a hard time with it, though, and Charlie/Ken/Cyc both give her a somewhat hard time with it.. The way it ussually works is she plays flyaway until she has meter, then chips with Hail Storm. Gambit can hit her out of the air with his sj.strong pretty easily, into sj.fierce, ect, plus trick cards.. He generally makes it tough for her to stay away. Charlie can knock her out of Hail Storm if he does a Fierce SB right as she starts it. Ken can completely avoid the Hail Storm if he does a Strong DP right after it starts, plus his Air DPs can make it tricky for her fly offscreen. Generally, it's why Storm is supposedly 'Top Tier', though. Hard to stop her keepaway.

    So about Gambit.. Alot of how you need to play Ken is mindgames.. A lot of how you need to play Gambit is taking advantage of his really good Normals/Specials. I'll go over which ones you need to know.

    j.fierce, s.forward, c.forward, s.roundhouse, Jab Cajun Slash, Air Kinetic Card.

    His Jab Cajun Slash is a godly move. It has very good priority, good damage, about 1/2 screen range, and it's unpunishable if blocked. Basically, if you land a low hit and aren't close enough to launch, do this. Always. If you think they're going to do something, do this and stuff it. Great for countering almost anything after the fact, because it comes out so fast with such range.

    His j.fierce has nuts priority, too. It can beat out almost any launcher easily(j.fierce vs Cyc's c.forward is tricky, though). You often have to do it early, though, so it's difficult to combo upon landing.. j.fierce -> j.roundhouse \/ Jab Cajun Slash is good enough though, good damage.

    His Air Cards is basically two things.. One, an Anti FB technique.. If you think they're going to FB, FB Super, projectile anything, SJ up and toss a card at them. Two, it's a setup for his j.fierce. At about 1/3rd screen range, you can sj, throw a jab card at them, then j.fierce them on the way down.

    His s.forward is good because it's fast, and has good range. Poking with Gambit is effective, because he can always follow up with his Jab Cajun Slash. I've seen Gambit players use his s.forward for Lockdown Type tactics, repeatedly dashing with it. I generally use it to get to the Range I want. d.s.forward(Dashing, Standing MK, you know SF notation, right?) xx Jab Cajun Slash, even if blocked, puts me at about the range I want, perfect for SJ Air Cards -> j.fierce, a low dashin, whatever.

    His c.forward is just as good a poke.. This one is probably his best bet for landing lucky Jab Cajun Slashes.

    Mindgame Strategy:

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    Knockdown Mindgame - I don't use many Mind Games with Gambit, but this one is a must. Anytime you knock them down, you're setting this up(Jab Cajun Slash comes in handy again.) As they get up, you've got two options. One, dash at them and hit with a meaty c.short -> c.fierce. Two, dash at them, cancel the dash with down, and throw them. Gambit is very good at Wave Dash Throwing(Name for dash cancelling into Throw), and his throws aren't bad. It's a tactic you will want to learn with Gambit, so try getting the timing down for a seemless Down Cancel into Throw(You can get it so you can't even see the crouch, or any pause at all). Kick Throw does a lot of damage, but you can combo after the punch throw. Wake Up attacks can make this mindgame difficult, though.. Only 4 characters have ones good enough to make you worry, though. Shotos, and Charlie. DP/Short Somersault are seriously good wakeup attacks. In any case, if you're have trouble with that, dash in, block the wakeup, then Jab Cajun Slash punish them, rinse and repeat.

    _______________________
    Kinetic Card Keepaway - Gambit can play decent keepaway with his Cards and his j.fierce/Jab Cajun Slash. Cajun Slash can keep them back on the ground, and his j.fierce can keep them from jumping in, and you can chip/land lucky cards with his Air Cards. Ground cards too.. It's always alright to throw out an occasional Fierce Ground Card(Best to cancel out of a blocked s.roundhouse. Gives them the right amount of time to register that they're not in blockstun anymore, and maybe mess up and eat the card).. If it connects, go into Royal Flush(Or Ground Fierce Card -> Ground Jab Card -> Royal Flush, if you wanna be flashy). His range and priority can keep them away rather well.

    _______________________
    Launcher Mindgames - This one is mostly just for fun. Gambit's launcher hits them pretty high, and he recovers pretty quick from it. It's possible to do c.fierce, then Dash under them, and do another c.fierce, ect ect. So.. Your basic options after a c.fierce, are..

    - Dash under them and do c.fierce on the other side
    - Stay where you are and do a c.fierce again
    - Dash under them and do c.short -> c.fierce as they land
    - Dash under them, then dash back and do s.short(Juggle) -> c.fierce on the side you were first on
    - Cancel into a Fierce Trick Card to hit them on their way down
    - Jump and air throw them on their way down(Not SJ, normal jump)
    - Do nothing and throw them when they land.

    What I 'ussually' do is c.fierce, dash under them and c.fierce, dash under them and c.fierce, Fierce Trick Card. They generally catch on after the second crossup, and fall right into the Trick Card. After the card, you can do almost anything, Royal Flush, air combo, launch them again, whatever. After the initial use is when it starts to get tricky. A good thing to do at that point, is to just setup the trap(Maybe Launch, then one Crossunder -> Launch), And just let them land and throw them. On to Combos


    Combos: Gambit has basically two kinds of combos. His FS setup, and his corner cards setup.

    Combo 1 - In Corner, c.fierce /\ sj.short(Pause) -> sj.strong -> sj.forward -> sj.fierce(FS) -> sj.roundhouse, sj.short(OTG) \/ [ s.short -> s.strong -> s.forward -> s.fierce(Pause) -> s.roundhouse ] x N, s.short, Punch Throw.(This infinite is very easy[I can do 200+ hits with my eyes closed. Seriously. And I don't even use Infs in matches. I do use this as a throw setup, though.] The setup is the difficult part. Another setup you can try is c.fierce /\ sj.short(Long pause) -> sj.forward(Pause) -> sj.roundhouse, sj.fierce(OTG) \/ FS Infinite)

    Combo 2 - In corner, Punch Throw. d.s.short(OTG) -> s.forward -> s.roundhouse xx Jab Kinetic Card, [ d.s.short -> s.roundhouse xx Jab Kinetic Card ] x N, d.s.short -> c.fierce xx Royal Flush. This infinite isn't so easy. Against heavier characters, you may need to add in an occasional s.forward to the rep.. Against Cammy/Chun, good luck, I've yet to find a reliable way to do it. The reason this combo is useful, though, is because it's almost impossible to do the FS Combo setup from anything but a Launch on a Standing opponent. If you juggle with the launch, the setup is much harder. If you OTG into the launch, you can't OTG into the FS combo. One OTG per combo rule. So, this is probably the best way to do damage.


    It's hard to explain some things about Gambit gameplay.. I guess I gave you a lot more info about Ken, but I'm definitely much better with Gambit. Try out some of it and see how he works.

    Magneto has a lot of stuff to talk about, but I don't feel like doing it.. Heh.. Sabre's pretty simplistic(Though not neccessarily bad), but I'll get to him later.. What I can tell you right now, is how to make Fly Mode useful with Storm.

    First off, Storm is Invincible when she goes into Fly Mode. For the brief period where she spins upward, and all that, she's invulnerable. She can bypass Magnetic Shockwaves and such with that. While in Fly Mode, she can be very deadly, as long as you know fly combos. Landing a f.fierce should mean you get a free corner air combo. I'll show you.

    Fact 1 - In Marvel vs Capcom, during Fly Mode, you can air dash infinitely, whenever you want to. In XvsSF, you can't. You can only air dash once, then you have to return to Neutral state before you can air dash again.

    Fact 2 - While in the air, storm can cancel most of her attacks with Up during the later part of their animation, activating her Float mechanism. Floating, for storm, counts as a Neutral State.

    So, what you can do, is f.fierce(Flying Fierce) xx Air Dash Down/Towards, ad.short -> ad.fierce, Hold Up/Towards(This cancels the ad.fierce with Float, which counts as neutral, AND lets you link another f.fierce easily), f.fierce xx Air Dash Down/Towards, ad.short -> ad.fierce, ect ect ect.

    What I ussually do, is fly around until I land a f.short in the back of their head. Then, I f.fierce xx [ AD Down/Towards, ad.short -> ad.fierce xx Float, f.fierce xx Float, f.fierce xx AD Down/Towards ]. This takes them to the corner quickly. You can ussually get about 20 hits out of it, too. But the next thing you need to know, is how to go from a Fly Combo to a Ground Combo. What you do, is Air Dash Down/Towards, ad.short -> ad.fierce xx Unfly. Doing that will result in ad.short -> ad.fierce -> j.roundhouse, and she will fall to the ground 'as' she is doing the roundhouse. Then you can do d.s.jab -> launch/whatever.

    My Storm Corner combos aren't the best, so you can figure something out or ask a Storm Pro, heh. I also know that my technique of 'Buzzing around trying to land a f.short' isn't the best. Theoretically, you have AD.Fierce at your disposal the whole time.. It would be possible to land a sudden ad.fierce, xx Float, then start your fly combo. As such, whoring f.fierce/AD.fierce would be more effective once you're good at it. I'm just not good at it.

    Also, of course, you can't block while flying. However, as long as you have a couple of frames to respond, you can Unfly -> Block anything[As long as Unfly Glitch is set. Basically, this only works if you've been hit out of Fly Mode earlier in the match already]. It's good to get into the habit of a quick Unfly -> Block.

    That's it for me, for now. Thanks for the video props, though.
  • ComboMasherComboMasher Joined: Posts: 507
    Rogue can be one of the fastest people in the game(IMO). I use her all the time on kaillera(probably spelt it wrong). Once you land a hit with her you can connect it into a good night sugar. I usually try to rush down into the corner and either land a dash HK(land)lk,mk, super... or i will rush in the corner and try to land a kiss throw. If you land one that throws them into the corner, then just do a super after rogue releases the person from the throw. I like to abuse her kiss throw alot. If i know that someone will roll alot, i will wait till they roll behind me, then i will dash the do the kiss throw motion. I usually get it for like 2 reps then they learn not to roll. Which if you know they arent going to roll, you can dash in and do clk XX super, or since they will in crouching mode till they stand up you dash and tri jump with down+HK. With rogue its all about rushing since she doesnt have any projectiles. If you ever land a dash down+HK and are close enough to them, you can go for her infinite: dash down+HK,land, jump up LK,dash down+HK repeat.
    Cool corner combo:
    launch,lk,down+HK,(land), clk,jump,jlp, jlk,jmp,jhp or hp.
    I use cyclops alot too. He can be really good at running away and chipping and rushing down. You can optic blast to get priority and keep people grounded and where you want them. Abuse his HP throw especially in the corner. If you land a HP grab in the corner there is so much you can do. You can set it up into the infinite, or you can so a standing HKxxmega optic blast.
    Very useful and practical super combo. If you ever get a launch, you can link it into a free super. combo: launch, sjmk *or sjmp*, forward-down-back- all punch button super. Just make sure once it connect, to aim it upward after the first few hits.

    Storm can be real good at rush and run away too, just like in mvc2. I usually try to tri jump real fast with lk and air combo. If i manage to launch in the corner i go for the corner infinite: launch, lk,up+hp repeat till you get near the bottom. Now you can either end here or once you get low enough with the up+Hp, jump up, lk,mk,HP,HK, repeat.
    If you get them with a HP throw in the corner you can do a very easy infinite: Hp throw, [jump up,j.lk, DOWN FORWARD lightning attack] repeat in the brackets. You have to make sure it is down forward, not down or else it wont work. very easy and practical if you land a HP grad in the corner.
    I am no expert at all, but this is just some info that i have that i hope is helpful.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Sabretooth, Sabretooth..

    Sabretooth is relatively simplistic, if only because how good some of his moves are, are very lopsided. His supers are 'very' good. Absurdly high damage, one of them can be repeated. His Air Throw is good. His Jumping Normals are very good. His ground normals are very bad, and his specials are very bad. His jump, is very good. From this information alone, you can see why almost all Sabre players spend the whole match in the air, trying to link a super. So.. Some basic Sabre Neccessities..

    His jump is very fast.. The basic idea behind sabre, is that at any time, he has two strong options.. One, is to jump at you and hit you with j.fierce on the way up, -> j.roundhouse \/ c.short -> launch -> air throw -> super. The other, is to hit you with c.short, and go right into the launch. Your job is to make them guess wrong. You've got two ways to mix them up..

    One, throw out the j.fierce early. It'll make them more reluctant to hold that Low Block. To take advantage of this, after two or three jumps, land, pause for a split second, then hit low. Sabre's jump is very fast, and often their thoughts will get ahead of their eyes and they'll shift to block the anticipated early j.fierce, and eat the c.short instead.

    Two, throw out the j.roundhouse late. Doing this will make them reluctant as to when to 'start' blocking low. To take advantage of this, on one of your jumps, throw the j.fierce out a little bit later than your usual Early, and don't throw out the roundhouse at all. Just land and c.short. They'll generally wait until after the Roundhouse to know it's safe to block low, and by the time they realize you didn't do the roundhouse, it's too late.

    Combinations of these timing tricks are the fundamental basis for landing his damaging combos.. Which are..

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong, Air Throw \/ Berserker Claw X(QCF+PP)

    In Corner : c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong, Air Throw \/ Wild Fang X(DP+PP), Wild Fang X, Wild Fang X(Ussually they're dead after two).

    Those are his Bread and Butter combos, and you'll be seeing a lot of them almost anytime you play against/as Sabre. He has more advanced combo options, here and there, though.. For example, you can do..

    In the corner, Air Throw \/ d.s.forward, s.short(OTG) -> s.fierce(Two hits) /\ sj.jab, Air Throw

    Vs Shotos, Midscreen, you can do Air Throw \/ Strong Berserker Claw(You have to do this as soon as you recover, or else it will miss), s.short(OTG) -> s.fierce(Two Hits) /\ sj.jab, Air Throw

    And, worth noting, is that you can always OTG after his Jab Berserker Claw. So, you can do s.roundhouse xx Jab Berserker Claw, s.short(OTG) -> s.fierce, ect ect ect.

    And, one more thing about him.. He has the fastest super activation in the game. His Team Super 'comes out' faster than any other super, Period. His Team Super in of itself isn't that good, it's basically a powerful Jab Berserker Claw, but it comes out at lightning speed(It seems to be a 1-2 Frame activation. I could be wrong, though), so you can have a backup teamate that can benefit from this.

    Gambit comes to mind. It makes very good use of the Stick he tosses up, and you can also use Gambit as an instant Beam Super. Plus, there's a trick you can do. When doing a team super, your opponent has to block according to the direction of the character that 'started' the Team Super. So, if someone were to jump, and you were to activate a Sabre/Gambit TS with Sabre, and Sabre went 'under' them.. In order to block the Royal Flush, they would have to hold 'towards' Gambit. Plus, if they 'do' block it, the blockstun pushes them towards Sabretooth. The way Team Supers work, is if you hit the person who activated the Team Super during it, he takes the hit and flies away(You can't hit him a second time), and the other character instantly recovers to a neutral state, no matter what. In other words.. Aside from one hit they could give to Sabre.. It's safe.

    Oh yeah, One more thing. Sabre's Variable Counter isn't bad, because you can OTG into one of his cheesy damaging combos after it.. Plus, there's a glitchy effect of it that is 'very' good for you.. If you use it to hit somebody out of almost 'any' super, there's a very good chance of it freezing them in place for a few seconds(Doing it vs Beam Supers, up close, is a good way to see what I mean). If they're in the corner, this means you can do s.jab -> s.fierce(One Hit) xx Wild Fang X x N until dead. If they're not in the corner, you can just Berserker Claw X them. Or, launch into air throw, if you trust their lack of ability to Tech Hit.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    One of the most fundamental things that you have to be good at in this game is being able to tech throws. Throws in this game are windows for free damage. If you can't tech them, expect to eat damage fast. Here are some examples of stupidly easy damage off of throws:

    Cyke: in corner, FP throw, launch --> infinite
    Storm: close to corner, st. RH, sj. JP, FP throw, Lightning storm (easy 33%, if not more)
    Ken: close to corner, FP throw (or air throw), cr. FP --> infinite

    You may notice that those combos all involve being close to the corner. This leads up to my next point, stay out of corners. Most characters have infinites, but not every one of them has a midscreen, most must be done in the corner.

    Recognize juggle opportunities that may seem like OTGs, but are true juggles. Remember that you can only OTG once in a combo, but if you can hit them and juggle them before landing, the combo will continue. Here's an example (which is really impractical since your opponent can mash out):

    Mag:
    cr. FP, sj. JP, sj. SK, sj. SP, FP throw upwards, ad. df., [hypergrav, magnetic tempest, cr. SK, cr. RH] x3

    The cr. SK can be completely quickly enough such that your opponent lands on Magneto's outstretched leg, and not the ground and so is juggled, and the game does not register it as an OTG.

    There are some moves which cannot be rolled out of. These are free OTG opportunities. Examples are, Wolverine's Berserker Barrage X, and Akuma's Shungokusatsu.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    What you refer to as Juggles and not OTGs are known as Near Off the Ground links by some.. But they do count as OTGs. I know this, because you cannot do a Near OTG, then do a normal OTG. The reason Near OTGs work, I believe, is because they hit the opponent before, somewhere along the line, the One OTG rule has a chance to kick in. Essentially, they just have to be at the earliest possible moment.

    However.. You cannot mash out of Hyper Grav in XvsSF. So, that combo you mentioned isn't escapable.. But, the nOTG after Tempest link is very difficult, and unneccessary. There is a better way(I'll explain that later).

    Also, the Berserker Barrage X cannot be rolled, but it's not due to the specific move.. Rather, due to the fact that the move inflicts the Flying Screen rules. These rules kick in after most 'Air Combo Finishers', and some special/super moves, like Juggernaut Punch, Magnetic Shockwave, or Berserker Barrage X.(On a related note.. Juggernaut Punch and Magnetic Shockwave inflict a 'Temporary' FS. The restrictions automatically disappear seconds after. This is very unusual.. But.. It makes things like Jab Juggernaut Punch, c.short(OTG) -> Headcrush possible.) This is akin to not being able to roll after some Air Combos(Like Ryu's c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.fierce -> sj.up.roundhouse \/). However, these OTG oppurtunities are free licenses to combo, as with the FS Rules in place, you cannot Super Jump, or do anything but Normals. The most viable option is either an infinite that works with the FS rules in place(If you want to be a pain in the ass), or possibly a setup for a throw.(For example, with Ryu, after that combo I listed.. You could do c.short(OTG) -> c.strong, then throw them when they land.)

    Ken cannot launch after his Ground Punch Throw, though, unless it's on Cammy/Chun Li. His air throw is a true threat, however. Overall, I would very much agree that the ability to reliably Tech Hit throws comes in very handy in XvsSF. On the other side, it helps not to make your throw setups predictable. For this reason, try to avoid using the same combos hit for hit that lead to a throw.. Also, Tech Hitting an Air Throw often results in throwing out an accidental Punch/Kick/Whatever.. If that happens, you cannot block on the rest of your way down to the ground.. So, try to avoid doing that, or on the other hand, try to capitalize on it.


    Now, about the better way to followup Magneto's Hypergrav.. XvsSF has a strong Momentum Engine. Your momentum often affects the way Opponents are juggled by certain hits. If you juggle with a dashing attack, chances are, they'll go flying away. There is a glitch that uses this to it's advantage with Magneto's Tempest.

    The honest way to do it, is Hypergrav, Super Jump, then do the Tempest an inch or so off the floor.. The game registers your momentum as 'Moving up really fast'. Each hit from the Tempest sends them up 'really far' in comparison to how high it would normally send them up. High enough, that after the tempest, you can combo them on the way up during your SJ, ect..

    The glitched way to do it, is to do a SJ, then do a Tempest before you even leave the ground. Easiest way to do this is with the Tiger Knee motion. If done right, you'll see a dust cloud under Mag as the Tempest comes out(The same dust that happens when he Super Jumps). Magneto will never leave the ground, but the tempest will send them up into the air really high, as if you had done the first version. Afterwards, you can do s.roundhouse(One hit) xx Grav, Glitch Tempest, ect ect ect.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    yo prozac from GCC?? any good bison infinite/hard combos?? i'm kinda stuck tryin to find one out. an infinite would be really great.
  • margalismargalis Joined: Posts: 714
    Gambit can also crossup quite well with his jump roundhouse, and his jumping strong is a very good air to air attack when you are coming up underneath them. (Forward also appears to aim up but I find strong works better, and you can chain forward after strong)

    My Gambit vs Sabretooth strategy is basically jump around and do fierce if he is below me and strong if he is above me...Sabretooth is not the best air to air fighter as all his air attacks are angled either down or horizontal.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Hot thread you guys. This game is still hot here in SoCal.

    Hey ProzacNation, where do you live?

    -XvDF
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Damn, prozac nation fielding xvsf questions. I'm in the right place.

    If I remember correctly, there's a rogue glitch where she steals Magneto's power, then does her own hypergrav which can be teched. If teched, the opponent lands facing the wrong direction. Is that right? I'm going to try it out soon and was wondering if I would be wasting my time.

    Also, what's up with the akuma raging demon glitch? Where he grabs bison out of a roll with RD, but bison just gets right up. I'm wondering if that is specific to Bison, or if 2 akumas can do it. If I were to use 2 akumas, akuma#1 grabs akuma#2 out of the roll, but then akuma#2 gets up early and does his own RD, then c. lk, c. hp.... Showing both aspects of the RD.
  • N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jr Joined: Posts: 2,935
    Wow this thread has some good stuff in it. Unfortunately I don't have a stick that can be used with XvsSF yet, just the stupid kb:( Still alot of great info. Just to make sure we're talking about v. 2 right?
    SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
    vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
    vietcong01: ok gl
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    hey, will someone tell me which is which? here in the philippines we have 3 versions.. the american, japanese, and the PS EX version, now will sumbody tell me what are their corresponding version #'s??
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Version Differences -

    _______________________

    Version 1 - The most noticable thing in this version is Ryu/Akuma. Their hopkick recovers while they're still in the air. This allows for things like Hopkick, j.jab \/ whatever, and the 'really' easy infinite of Hopkick, s/c.strong -> Hopkick, ect ect.(If Ryu can combo a Beam Super off of the Hopkick by doing it in the air before he lands, it's V1.) Also, Ryu's hurricane super has some different, glitchy properties in V1. If it hits as a juggle, each hit pushes the enemy 'down'. However, the hits don't immobilize them, so all they do is bounce off the ground(Which makes them recover). If they don't block, Sweep -> Hurricane Super can be a 100% attack. With Throw -> c.roundhouse(OTG) xx Hurricane Super, they have to hold 'towards' you to block the juggle hits.. If they hold Back, it's a 75% attack.

    Version 2 - This is your 'basic' XvsSF version. It's the most common. They fixed the Hurricane Kick Super and the Hopkick(You recover from the hopkick after you hit the ground now, and the best you can do is Hopkick -> s./c.jab, and even that is hard. Also, the Hurricane Super juggle hits bounce you up, so you bounce on top of the super[Which still combos])

    Version 3 - I'm not all that sure about the multitude of changes in V3, but I know a few.. Storm can't hit multiple times with her Lightning Attack without landing first, Cyc's j.fierce and juggs j.fierce/roundhouse send them straight down, Wolv's Drill Claw doesn't cause FS anymore(What was that supposed to fix? s.roundhouse /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.dwn.forward -> sj.roundhouse \/ was always a better inf setup) There was probably more.

    Those are the 3 'Arcade' versions. PlayStation/Saturn are different versions. I don't know anything about the PlayStation version, other than that it's a lot slower. Saturn, I believe, is a fairly accurate port of Version 3.


    On to other things..

    I live in Massachusetts(=[).

    Shin Ace - Yes, that Rogue glitch is correct.. I believe.. Heh.. I didn't actually record that one, but I believe that's how I did it later on.. A lot of rogue's Powers are glitchy. For example, right when Rogue throws a Hadouken, it's hitbox reaches at Peak Jump high 1/2 screen away.. She can AA with a Hadouken on response to them jumping at her from ~3/4s screen away, it picks them out of the air before it even leaves her hands. Her Roundhouse Sonic Boom has a HUGE Hit/Blockstun. Longest Ground Hit/Block stun of anything in the game, I think(She can dash in and combo after it, pretty easily). Her Kinetic Card can hit them on their opposite side. It doesn't crossup as far as Blocking goes(This is because they have to block according to You, not to what hit them)

    Also, about the Raging Demon thing.. Believe it or not, it isn't a Raging Demon thing, it's a Throw thing. Also, the RD didn't grab Bison out of a roll, it was s.short(OTG) -> Hopkick, s.jab(Doesn't combo) xx RD. The game is kind of weird about the 2 Throws per Combo rule, and seems to inflict a sort of 'Quick Getup' protection along with it when you use certain setups. The hopkick -> (Combo breaks)s.jab -> Throw link, after an earlier throw in the same combo, seems to do the job.

    ___________________
    HyperSlasherz - Heh.. Bison combos, eh? They're not very plentiful.. Bison's big power is in his normals that have 'crazy' priority, and his throw that also has crazy priority, and hurts even if teched.. But I'll see what I can give you..

    His only infinite, that I know of, only works on Rogue, unforunately.. I forget exactly how it goes.. But it's an nOTG infinite. I think it was s.fierce /\ sj.strong, sj.jab -> sj.strong -> sj.fierce(Hits her during her glitchy hit reel, FS) \/ [ c.short(nOTG) -> c.fierce, /\ j.short -> j.strong -> j.fierce(Hits during her glitchy hit reel) \/ ] It's 'something' like that.. A launch, 4 hit air combo ending in glitchy j.fierce, [ OTG into c.fierce, three hit jump combo ending in glitchy j.fierce, ] repeat..

    For bison combos, there are a few tricks.. You can OTG after his sweep with HCF+Fierce(The purple ball that swerves down first), into Psycho Crusher(Hard), or in the corner, into s.short -> s.fierce /\ ect. It also depends on how good you are at mashing.. If you're 'really' good, there's something you can do.. SJ Cancel the middle of a combo into the Psycho Crusher(Something like d.c.short -> s.roundhouse(Two hits) xx SJ, Air Psycho Crusher) and mash it out the best you can. If you can mash it good enough, you can hit them on the way down after it with j.jab or something, land, launch, ect ect. That works 'midscreen'. In the corner, it's a bit easier, and you don't really have to mash(You 'have' to SJ Cancel though. The PsychoC has to be done in an SJ state. In the corner, you can cancel it with the Wall and combo on the way down from it, though. Sometimes it's better just to do SJ PsychoC \/ Throw, though. His throws are 'really' good).


    _________________
    Margalis is right - Yeah, Gambit's j.roundhouse is a really good crossup. It's useful for getting out of the corner, because you can hop over them, cross them up, and then lock 'them' in the corner.. Midscreen, it chains to c.short -> s.roundhouse xx Jab Cajun Slash very nicely. Gambit's j.strong is one of the best Upward Air moves in the game though.. It's 'great' for picking Storm out of the air, and for tapping characters jumping in after a Halftime KO(j.strong -> j.forward(Slight pause) -> j.fierce(Slight pause) -> j.roundhouse(OTG) \/ Inf/FS Combo/Cool FSD pwnage). My Anti-Sabre Strat is Ryu, though. Heh. His j.fierce cleanly beats anything that Sabre can throw out Air vs Air, and chained into Roundhouse Hurricane, it's practically unstoppable pressure against him.(He has to guess carefully with Ground vs Air) Keep him on the ground, where your throws are a lot more important and he has crap for normals. Jab DP can catch him off guard and let you go on the attack.(If you land a Ground Punch Throw, follow with s.short(OTG) -> c.fierce /\ sj.up.roundhouse xx Beam Super)

    Also, Ken's j.forward is a pretty good crossup. It's great for applying midscreen pressure.. You can go from it into s.jab, s.jab, s.jab -> c.roundhouse/s.jab, s.jab -> throw games, and it's another solid option after a sweep.



    It's been a long time since I saw an XvsSF thread that people were interested in.. o_O I'll be back later, and probably post some Charlie stuff(I'm sick with Charlie, so much stuff..) Any other questions, let me know.. Comments? Strats? I don't know everything, heh, I'm sure some Mag/Storm/Chun pros are eager to spam strategy.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    good thread.. ^_^ if you guys got anymore questions, fire away. :tup:

    oh yeah.. you guys should really try out charlie, i'm sure prozac will post something about him later.. he's godly with him.
  • N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jr Joined: Posts: 2,935
    I was fooling around with Charlie last night, I'd really like to learn more about him, he seems really REALLY good. I look forward to what is sure to be an informational extravaganza prozac :clap: (wtf is with these smilies, the encore one looks like a crackhead coughing up blood)

    Is Chun Li mostly good because of her stupid super(who the fuck thought RECOVERY invinciblity was a good idea?) or does she have other tools as well(I would guess she has some good priority, since she always does no matter what) Seems like Tooth/Chun is team stupid...
    SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
    vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
    vietcong01: ok gl
  • glassglass half empty Joined: Posts: 555
    are there any good XMvSF match vids out there? i'm curious now about what a good non-infinite-based match with Charlie/Ken/Gambit/etc looks like.

    and yes, great info. great quality and quantity :)
    No rest for the wicked.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    tanx prozac, for giving me an idea on how to do bison's infinite... btw, is an FSD combo possible with bison?? i'm kinda stuck tryin to do long combos on bison. in xvsf he's one of the lowest COMBOABILITY characters, (along w/ juggs)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ________________
    HyperslasherZ - The trouble with Bison FSD combos, is that it's so hard to go into a FS Ground Combo with him. If you 'do' go into one, you probably have to start it with an OTG. There's the tricky part.. You need two hits to FSD, one to make them recover, and one to hit them right before they recover. Bison can only do 2 hits on the ground, and one of them has to OTG, right? That one doesn't count. I bet there is a way, though, and if you hold on, I'll check it out..

    Btw, Here's an abusively painful combo with Juggs( =O ) -

    Vs Shotos in Corner : Fierce Throw into corner, s.twd.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.fierce -> sj.roundhouse \/ (Insert retarded /\ j.fierce \/ infinite. Heh.) /\ j.short \/ Fierce Throw into Corner, Jab Juggernaut Punch, c.short(OTG. You can use s.forward instead, which looks really funny, but it's harder) xx Headcrush - ~97%, without any reps of the j.fierce inf.

    ________________
    Glass - XvsSF Match Vids are hard to come by.. There's some casual stuff at http://addictz.darktemplarz.com Downloads section, but some of it's not very good(Some of it isn't bad, though. Sid vs Joker matches were good, SiD/Joker/T-Kimura are all decent players[Liquid Metal used to be, not sure about now], but there are often issues with Lag, because all these matches were online). Other than that, Can't help you, sorry..

    ________________
    N-Ken - Chun's c.forward is 'really' really good.. It has nutty range and beats a lot of things, and it basically turns her QCF+KK into a poke. Plus, with her triple jump, air dash, and wall jump, she can stay away from them pretty well and just build meter. That, combined with her c.forward xx Super, makes her pretty good. However, I'm serious about countering her super with Pushblock Cancel if she throws out a random one. Wait until she's right next to you, then Pushblock, then hold back and mash Strong+Fierce+Forward+Roundhouse. Either you'll throw her out of her super, or just block the rest of it. Win/Neutral situation(If you still get hit even though you were holding back, she wasn't close enough when you pushblocked. Wait a bit longer.)

    I'll post some Charlie stuff in a sec.. Gonna go see what Bison can do to FSD..
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Bison FSDs!

    Yay.. A few setups -

    Vs Rogue in Corner - s.fierce(Slight pause) /\ sj.jab, sj.short -> sj.forward -> sj.fierce(Glitchy hit), sj.fierce(OTG) \/ s.jab, (FSD)s.jab -> s.roundhouse(One hit) xx SJ, Psycho Crusher, sj.jab -> sj.strong \/ Comb0

    Vs Rogue, in Corner - s.fierce(Slight pause) /\ sj.jab, sj.short -> sj.strong(Slight pause) -> sj.fierce(Glitchy hit) \/ c.short(OTG, Slight Pause) -> s.strong, (FSD)s.jab -> s.forward xx HCF+Roundhouse

    Essentially, bison can link a few Jabs in a row against Rogue as an FS Juggle.. Just like Cyc's and Ryu's bouncing inf(s.jab -> c.strong), which often FSD, so does this.


    Oh yeah.. About the Inf.. I'm having trouble with it.. =/ I was fairly sure of it, but now I'm not.. It's 'probably' s.fierce(Slight pause) /\ j.jab, j.short -> j.strong -> j.fierce(Glitchy, FS) \/ [ c.short(OTG) -> c.fierce, /\ j.jab -> j.strong -> j.fierce(Glitchy) ]. But, it 'might' be c.short(OTG) -> c.fierce, [ /\ j.jab -> j.strong -> j.fierce(Glitchy) \/ s.short -> c.fierce ] Either way, the timing is really tight, and you have to delay the 3 hit jump combo at every oppurtunity without having any of the hits wiff.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Charlie Time -

    I've been using him for a long time, and he's somewhat complicated.. But it comes down to Pressure/Lockdown/Mixup/Sick Combos.

    __________________
    Special Moves worthy of note : Air Forward Razor Kick, Jab Sonic Boom, Short Somersault

    His Air Razor Kick - It's probably his best move.. Yeah, even better than Jab Sonic Boom.. It has high priority, high damage, and it's uncounterable if blocked(Not 'Hard to counter', it can't be done Post-Block). Ontop of that, it leads to Mixup/Crossup games you 'have' to know to be able to use Charlie very well.(You can get by on Jab SBs and Short Somersaults, but this is key to 'Higher Charlie', heh). I'd suggest to use the Forward Kick(MK) version, unless you need the Short/Roundhouse version specifically(They all have different trajectories, and they all send the opponent down at a different speed.) It does more damage, it's more comboable, and it's ussually just the right trajectory. I'll explain his Mixup/Combos with it later. It's also a 'seriously' good Fireball Counter, and a seriously good Low Poke counter, just Jump and immediately RK. Plus, if you catch a lucky Air vs Air hit with it, you may be able to OTG.. Always throw out a c.short after it hits somebody in the air just to check.

    Jab Sonic Boom - It's still really, really good. Basically, any time you get an attack string blocked on the ground, you want it to end in this. Anytime you want to close in, you should start with this. Any time you want to keep them from Normal Jumping out the corner, dash back and do this(Use 3P to dash back), then trap them back in. This is half of the key to his pressure game. Blocked attack string, Jab SB, Air Razor Kick, Rinse and repeat, explained in more detail later.

    Short Somersault - One of the best Wakeup moves in the game, except that it's counterable. Not that easy to counter, but don't let Gambit bait you into it, or you'll be eating a lot of Jab Cajun Slashes. It's priority beats just about anything except Invulnerable moves. It's also a good Medium Range pressure technique. You want to be just far enough away to make them block one hit from it. It's also a good way to get out of something. If you come down from a Razor Kick crossup game and get surprised with something, you can occasionally Short Somersault out of it(Like, if you land on the wrong side, they jumped over your c.roundhouse, ect ect).

    ________________
    Normal moves worthy of note - c.roundhouse, j.forward, j.jab, c.jab, c.short, c.fierce, s.forward, c.forward (I know it's a long list, I'll be brief)

    c.roundhouse - His best long range ground attack. If your attack string is getting blocked, end it with This xx Jab SB and keep the pressure on. There's also a combo with this that is 'very' important to know. Once you know that combo, this becomes very useful. Poke with it, chain lucky c.shorts into it, ect ect. Don't get too predictable with it. They'll jump it. Keep a Short Somersault, or at least a c.fierce, ready for AA. Combo = c.roundhouse xx SJ, Air Forward Razor Kick(OTG) \/ c.fierce /\ [Insert Air Combo Here =O ]

    j.forward - It's quick, it's got good horizontal range, and it crosses up. This is a great thing to cancel out of and into a Forward Razor Kick(Same button too =D), because of it's speed and range, it will help in locking them down. [ /\ j.forward xx Forward Razor Kick \/ ] is a very strong pressure technique, as it keeps you close and keeps them from jumping. Cross them up with a Razor Kick, then on the way down hit them in the back of the head with sj.forward. Fun fun fun.

    j.jab - This basically has two purposes. One, is combos. Two, it's a 'great' move to do High/Low mixup games after an Air Razor Kick. Explained in the Strats part, ect ect ect

    c.jab - Decent range, very fast. I use it because it chains well to c.strong during pressure games. It's not very useful for Mixup, but if you're not trying to land a low hit(I.E., you're going for a Walkin Throw psychout instead, or you're zoning them), it's great, because it chains into another c.jab/c.strong very well, or you can just jump after it and repeat the Razor Kick lockdown technique.

    c.short - Good for Razor Kick mixup. sj.jab on the way down, c.short after you land, don't sj.jab at all, do something else, ect ect. Also good for chaining into a launch. If you jump at them with j.forward, and they try to jump out(And air block it), do xx Razor Kick \/ c.short -> c.fierce. The c.short will catch them right as they land from the air block, and in general, works well.

    c.fierce - It's a decent launcher, but more importantly, it's one of his few good Anti Air normals(s.strong is ok but less priority/height, s.roundhouse is good but only when they're jumping shallow). Anti Air c.fierce(They block) xx Jab SB locks them back tight into the corner again if they try to jump out, very effective.

    s.forward - It's a good poke, when used with a dash. d.s.forward is another move(Like gambit's d.s.forward) That can be used just to lock them in place. It's quick, it keeps them from jumping, and if it hits, you can cancel into QCF+PP and carry it into the corner.

    c.forward - A very good Dashing Poke. I often use it and blindly cancel into QCF+PP wether it connects or not, because the super lets you carry the fight closer to the corner(If they don't pushblock, you go to the corner immediately.. If they pushblock well, you don't always get all the way there.) Also, it's a very good followup to any hit that connects(Suprised that s.jab connected? -> c.forward xx QCF+PP )


    ________________________________
    Strats

    ________________
    Mixup -
    Charlie's Pressure/Mixup work very well together. His mixup game is based around simultaneous High/Low and Crossup techniques, based around his Air Razor Kick. When you do his Air Razor Kick, it does two things.. Moves him slightly forward, and then carries him straight down faster than normal. The crossup game is in wether or not the Razor Kick moved you forward enough to be behind them now.. For example.. From about sweep distance, you can SJ towards them, go up about 3/4s screen, do a Roundhouse Razor Kick, then sj.roundhouse them in the head on the way down, on the other side. That's basic. The way you get better at this mixup, is by doing the Razor Kick closer to the ground. You need to learn the exact point at which he recovers from the Razor Kick, and then only SJ as high as you have to so you can hit them on the way down. It gives them less time to react. Also, you need to learn exactly how far forward the Razor Kick carries you, and learn the distance at which you can play with Crossups/Non Crossups. This mixup game is helped a LOT if there is a Jab SB on the ground, though. That makes it safe(If they try to counter you, they get hit by the Jab SB), and it keeps them grounded. Remember, his j.forward is probably his best crossup.

    :confused:

    My post was too big.. I'm gonna try cutting it in half..
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ________________
    Pressure -
    There are three manuevers that, as a whole, keep almost any opponent in the corner. In no special order, they are [ c.roundhouse(Far) xx Jab SB ], [ j.forward(medium range) xx Forward Razor Kick ], [ c.fierce xx Short Somersault Shell ]. After the Jab SB technique, it's best to Dash In and throw out a Blocked Combo into another Jab SB, 'or' jump in with the Razor Kick technique. After the Razor Kick technique, it's best to land, do a few hits, then the c.roundhouse xx Jab SB. The Somersault technique is for when they try to jump the Jab SB(They will.) With the Razor Kick technique, you need to hit them with j.forward on the way up(Jump towards them), and immediately cancel to Forward Razor Kick. If they jump and don't block(I.E., if they try to jump out), the two hits will combo, and you'll probably be able to OTG. If they jump and 'do' block, hit them with c.short -> c.fierce when they land, there's a good chance they won't block it. If they do, wait a fraction of a second then cancel into Short Somersault, or wait until you recover and make them block some more. If they just sit there and block, they'll block both hits and your position will be about the same, maybe a little bit closer. His Midscreen pressure is a bit different.. It's mostly about his Jab SB, and his SB Super. Dash in with quick attacks(c.short, s.forward, c.forward), and if you can, land a sweep. Knockdown is your friend. If you can do the Razor Kick OTG(Important, c.roundhouse xx SJ, Air Forward RK(OTG) \/ c.fierce /\ Free Combo), they're eating a lot of damage. If not, it's still an oppurtunity for two things.. One, you can keep up the ground pressure, by throwing out a Jab SB as they get up and them pushing them back into it with Block Stun(Throwing out a second Jab SB right as they block the first = Great Lockdown), or jumping and crossing them up with Roundhouse Razor Kick(Land on the other side, c.short xx Super, ect ect)

    That's pretty Higher Charlie.. Now for Cobmox! =O

    ________________________________
    Combos -

    For combos, always try to use his Forward(MK) Razor Kick, for some reason it just does flat out more damage. Also, the Crossfire Blitz super(QCF+KK) does good damage, and you can OTG after it(It's your friend). Anyways..

    Your Beginners Charlie Air Combo, vs Anybody, in Corner -
    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.forward xx Forward RK, sj.roundhouse(OTG) \/ c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.fierce(FS) -> sj.roundhouse, sj.roundhouse

    For advanced Charlie air combos, you 'have' to be able to connect a sj.jab after a Forward RK, 'before' they hit the ground.. Like so..

    c.fierce -> sj.jab -> sj.short(Small pause) -> sj.strong -> sj.forward xx Forward RK, sj.jab xx Forward RK \/ c.short(OTG) -> c.fierce /\ Air Combo

    Those can be rolled.. This can't.

    c.fierce(Small pause) /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong xx Forward RK, sj.jab \/ c.fierce /\ Air Combo

    Now, for his Infinite. It works after any c.fierce that Juggles, such as the second c.fierce in the combo directly above, or, Throw -> c.fierce

    [ c.fierce /\ sj.forward xx Forward RK, sj.jab \/ ] x N

    Annnnd, his Second Infinite. This works after any throw, or generally, any j.jab vs Air juggle. I can't really help you with the timing, it's just.. Tricky. Not hard to do, but for me, it's hard to maintain.

    [ /\ j.jab -> j.strong -> j.fierce -> j.roundhouse \/ ] x N

    Now let's add in Throws. I'll use that Beginners Air Combo to show you..
    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.forward xx Forward RK, sj.roundhouse(OTG) \/ c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.fierce(FS) -> sj.roundhouse, sj.roundhouse \/ s.jab, Punch Throw, c.fierce /\ More Air Cobm0x! =O

    That was called a 'bounce' throw. Normally, the s.jab would result in them falling down, doing a tiny bounce off the ground, then landing. You can grab them during that bounce, however. They, can't grab you during that bounce.

    In Corner - Punch Throw, Crossfire Blitz(QCF+KK), s.short(OTG) -> s.strong, Punch Throw, Crossfire Blitz

    ^___ This isn't 100% reliable. Fast characters, like Wolv/Cammy, can actually hit you with a jab before they land from the s.strong, and even then, they 'can' throw you, so it's risky when fighting characters with High Priority/Throw Combos(I.E., I wouldn't do it vs Cyclops. HP Throw -> Inf, good game Charlie. I wouldn't do it vs Chun, either. She's fast, get's hit higher than others by the s.strong, 'and' she has a high priority throw.) If you don't trust your timing with it, or don't want to do it, you can do s.short(OTG) -> s.forward, let them recover, and start your Pressure/Lockdown game all over again.

    Midscreen Combos -

    c.jab -> c.roundhouse xx SJ, Forward RK(OTG) \/ c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.forward xx Forward RK(If you're near the corner, do sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.strong -> sj.fierce(FS) -> sj.roundhouse, sj.roundhouse \/ s.jab, Throw instead)

    c.fierce /\ sj.short(SJ As early as possible, and do this attack as early as possible. Then, do a medium pause) -> sj.strong xx Forward RK \/ c.forward xx Crossfire Blitz.

    That one is a little tricky. I'm not sure whether it's Match Worthy yet.. It has to be a c.fierce on a grounded opponent. The idea of the early sj.short is to stop them from moving away(The launcher sends them up and 'away'). Then, after a small pause, go into the strong xx RK, land and immediately OTG.. You need to cancel into the blitz ASAP, because OTG -> Blitz is a difficult link, but it's not impossible. Very good damage for a midscreen combo, though.

    Also, of course, if you do the Sonic Boom super vs a Grounded opponent, you can dash in and follow it up.. A note about the Sonic Boom super.. There's a 9 hit, 12 hit, and 15 hit version depending on how much you mash. You want 15 hit, and you don't want 12 hit. 15 Hit recovers very quickly, 9 hit recovers pretty quickly, and 12 hit is difficult to combo after, because it recovers slower. A typical combo for when you land a c.forward somewhat near the corner is -

    d.c.forward xx Sonic Blade(15 Hits), Wave dash to Corner, d.c.jab -> c.fierce /\ Air Combo


    Ooookay.. That's Charlie stuff.. =O
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Old Match Vids
    glass wrote:
    are there any good XMvSF match vids out there? i'm curious now about what a good non-infinite-based match with Charlie/Ken/Gambit/etc looks like.

    and yes, great info. great quality and quantity :)

    i have downloaded old xvsf match vids by ozy and bas from GCC efnet (IRC) (hmm? last yr), i'm not sure where u cud get em theze dayz?! :sad:

    u really need help wit that one
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Old Ozy vs Bas vids aren't bad.. A lot of Mag/Storm, though.

    You could try talking to the source.. Ozy's AIM = Ozycha. English is limited, but workable. Not sure how often he's on these days.

    I can try to record some decent Ken/Gambit/Charlie/Whoever matches.. I'll see how it turns out..
  • N-KenN-Ken dipthrongjr jr Joined: Posts: 2,935
    ________________


    In Corner - Punch Throw, Crossfire Blitz(QCF+KK), s.short(OTG) -> s.strong, Punch Throw, Crossfire Blitz

    ^___ This isn't 100% reliable. Fast characters, like Wolv/Cammy, can actually hit you with a jab before they land from the s.strong, and even then, they 'can' throw you, so it's risky when fighting characters with High Priority/Throw Combos(I.E., I wouldn't do it vs Cyclops. HP Throw -> Inf, good game Charlie. I wouldn't do it vs Chun, either. She's fast, get's hit higher than others by the s.strong, 'and' she has a high priority throw.) If you don't trust your timing with it, or don't want to do it, you can do s.short(OTG) -> s.forward, let them recover, and start your Pressure/Lockdown game all over again.

    I'm wondering if a different version of this combo is better?

    HP throw -> s. Fierce XX qcf+pp -> option

    options after super are:

    -s. strong, HP throw, continue with whatever

    -dash in, c. Fierce /\ AC

    -dash in, delayed HP throw

    I find the crossfire blitz has semi tight timing, this one is so easy, and still seems pretty good...
    SHIPP ITT: hey vietcong SHIPP ITT: nice job sunday
    vietcong01: tyshipp SHIPP ITT: np, hud
    vietcong01: ok gl
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The problem with the Sonic Blade super(QCF+PP) is it does somewhat weak damage in the middle of a combo, especially as a juggle.. I just happen to personally like the Blitz. I can give you a tip to connect it, though.. Crossfire Blitz links well after a juggle s.roundhouse, on everybody but the Heavy 4(Jugg, Sabre, Mag, Gief), and his Punch Throw in the corner sets him up at the perfect distance for s.roundhouse xx Blitz. That might help..

    But, it comes down to personal preference in a lot of ways. I've seen 'really' good Charlie's that use the Somersault Justice a lot(QCB+KK Super), I hardly ever use it. Blitz -> OTG -> Throw fits my timing well, I can't remember the last time I've been thrown out of it(I lied, I do do it on Cyclops, heh, but I would still suggest others don't unless they're utterly confident in their timing of the throw). Mag ROM infinite doesn't.(I can't do that for shit. =/)

    A Sonic Blade juggle in the corner can open up a lot of things.. But, you have to be careful how it connects. The distance you are away+The #Version of the super can change how the last hit of it affects them. Either they get bounced up, and you can continue, or they barely miss the last hit and recover. With a good setup, though, it works alright.

    Combo Wise, for Charlie, I'd say the most important thing to work on is his Razor Kick links. It really is 'very' damaging, it's one of the odd moves in XvsSF that isn't affected by the Damage Buffer.(Moves like Razor Kick, Cannon Drill, Gief's Kick Lariat, are all considered 'Combo Finishers', and as such, aren't buffered. Being Specials, however, they often do much more than say, a j.roundhouse). For style, Razor Kicks open a lot of combo options too..

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong xx Forward RK, sj.jab \/ s.jab -> s.strong -> s.roundhouse xx Blitz

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong xx Forward RK, sj.jab \/ /\ j.strong -> j.fierce(FS) -> j.roundhouse \/ s.jab, Throw

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong xx Forward RK, sj.jab xx Forward RK \/ s.short(OTG) -> s.strong -> s.roundhouse xx Super

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong xx Forward RK, sj.jab \/ /\ Air Throw

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong xx Forward RK, sj.roundhouse(FS) \/ s.jab

    Heh, Ect, ect, ect.

    The fact is, Charlie can 100% on a combo in lots of ways, so it comes down to if you want to, and how you prefer to do it.

    Also, I forgot to mention, Charlie has a relatively good Guard Break.. A word about Guard Breaks

    There's only one point in a match where you can do a real Guard Break. XvsSF has a 'glitch'(I call it a feature. =D) where if you do a pushblock in the air, and then hold up, you essentially do a Mid Air Super Jump after the pushblock. You have to be decently in the air(Not an inch off the ground), but what this means, is that you can Pushblock -> DSJ(Double Super Jump) out of almost all Guard Break attempts. Except for one point in the match..

    After you kill one of their characters, the FS(Flying Screen) rules are imposed.. That means no Specials/Supers/Dashes/SJs/ect. Those rules don't wear off until their next character practically lands. That means they can't pushblock. In the corner, with Charlie, when you kill their character, his guard break goes like this..

    Walk all the way into the corner, take half a step back, then do s.strong(It should barely nick their foot, and they need to block it), s.strong(This one comes out right before they hit the ground, and they can't block it). Rules state you can only do one action during a normal jump. This includes 'Going Into Block Mode', and when they come into the game, it counts as a normal jump.

    Another Guard Break option, is to do j.strong right as they come in, then land and s.jab them before they hit the ground. The whole key to a guard break, is that the first hit has to be early and light enough(j.fierce will leave them in blockstun long enough for them to Pushblock at the end of their blockstun) to avoid being pushblocked, and the second hit has to hit them after they recover from Block Animation, and before they hit the ground(For example, you can do s.strong x 2 with Charlie, and they can block both hits.. If there isn't enough pause inbetween for them to ever leave the Block animation). Guard breaks in general are tight timing, but Charlie's is one of the easier/more useful ones.

    However, if GBs aren't working for you, he still has two decent options after killing one of their characters..

    1 - s.roundhouse xx Blitz them as they come in. At the right distance, stuffs almost all jumping attacks and if they block it, the blitz is pretty safe.

    2 - Jump and air throw them

    Another 50/50 guessing game. Storm and Dhalsim can Float/Drill out of it, though.. But Sim players 'often' Drill when they're coming in, so it's good to wait and see what they do.. If they drill, do Somersault Justice and hit them out of it.. If they block on the way in, just wait for them to land and start Pressure. A crossfire blitz = Dead Dhalsim. Charlie can follow it up with a Dhalsim Combo, like so..

    Blitz, s.short(OTG) -> s.strong, (Dhalsim teleports) s.jab, (Dhalsim teleports)Then, you can throw him as he's recovering, or you can do a Dhalsim Inf, which is [s.strong x 5(He teleports inbetween each hit), s.jab ]
  • ComboMasherComboMasher Joined: Posts: 507
    I got a question: What is the best way to do Mag's ROM infinite in this game. I can do it in mvc2, but i cant do it for the life of my in this game.

    Also: Are there any FSD's for cyclops?
  • KayinKayin rawr Joined: Posts: 2,115
    Hey, an arcade near me recently got this game. I have been playing it and so far I like it.

    I am mostly using Ryu and Magneto, anyone got any tips for using them?
    "Games improve execution? Really? I thought the only way to improve execution is to post retarded questions about how to use a stick in tech talk." - Starcade RIP
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    cyclops combos w/ FSD

    on zangief: s.mp/\sj.lp,sj.lk,sj.mp,sj.mk,sj.hp,sj.hk(pause)sj.d.hk(otg)\/c.lp,c.mp,c.mp(FSD),s.hkXXMega Optic Blast

    i normally press c.mp more than twice until i get an FSD for the roundhouseXXMOB
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I got a question: What is the best way to do Mag's ROM infinite in this game. I can do it in mvc2, but i cant do it for the life of my in this game.

    practice it on bigger chars first like jugg and gief.. you basically just sj.down+short -> sj.foward then wait a sec xx ad d/f ad.down+short -> ad.foward.. once you get it down its very easy, then you can start changing it up and getting flashy with it like how you see in mvc2.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    A couple of new matches are up at the DA site(http://addictz.darktemplarz.com), that me and a friend ran through.. They were online matches, and the connection was 'blah', but theres some decent Ken material, and another match with a pretty nice example of Charlie Lockdown(Even though it says Charlie Rushdown. =o) There's some sound problems toward the end of the matches though, delay. Dunno whats up with it. Nothing that'll break your speakers though. :xeye:

    ________________
    Kayin -

    Heh.. I know a lot about Ryu too.. I can writeup a runthrough of him later.. Right now, no can do, maybe tomorrow.
  • glassglass half empty Joined: Posts: 555
    i've watched some of the matches (sid vs shadow, sid vs liquidmetal), and i must say that after reading most of the posts, i feel like playing this game again (at least for fun).

    i think i'm gonna have a lot of Wolverine/Cyclops infinite junkies to deal with. any general advice (ie using any char) on how to fight those guys off? any tactics specific to Charlie/Gambit as well would be good :)

    PS.
    i jsut watched some of the Prozac `Nation vs loc vids. nice :)
    No rest for the wicked.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Have some new material, with a lot more solid gameplay, with T-Kimura. Still have to pick which ones, capture it, host it, ect ect. It can be frustrating(An Input Replay is essentially a big A Track tape. =/ Add in ~30-50 matches, and ouch. ) Any requests for characters before I do?(I'll probably do it tomorrow night. Working most of tomorrow.)

    Wolv Inf junkies aren't that big of a threat.. You just have to be really good at blocking, heh.(Unless you meet one that can fake you out by j.dwn.forward -> j.fierce(Wiff) \/ c.short. That's a bitch.) With wolv, you want to pushblock a 'lot'. It really helps to be able to time your pushblocks too.. That way, do them ASAP, and it'll help keep you out of the corner. Also, if he's a ground pixie(Rarely jumps, whores c.short), just try to stay in the air and avoid his s.roundhouse. s.roundhouse is his 'only' formidable, nevermind useful, AA, and it doesn't have all that much priority.

    Cyc can be trickier. Cyc wins most Defense vs Defense contests, so you pretty much have to go at him. It all depends on if he's a scrub, or a serious player just using cyc like a whore. Either way, you want to avoid the Fierce Punch throw in the corner. If you can, stay on him, but just far enough away to bait him into a s.fierce(Noob cycs love going for the HP throw.) You want to sit at about c.jab range. Gambit/Charlie can both bait him into it by jumping in on him, then landing and jumping again.(Most noob cycs will try to throw you when you land.) Then, punish their s.fierce recovery with a jump in - > combo. If they don't s.fierce, than gambit can just throw out his j.fierce -> j.roundhouse \/ Ground chain anyway.. With charlie, be careful. The safe way to go is to do his Short Razor Kick(His Short RK has a huge Block Pushback. If he blocks it, you'll be safe.) You can try j.roundhouse xx Forward/Roundhouse RK, into c.short, but it's risky. Other than his HP Throw, he shouldn't be able to land that inf on you. Stick to the ground if you can, when not in the corner, as to avoid spammed launchers, and just watch out for Random Mega Optic Blast.

    If he's an expert player, it'll be a lot harder. Cyc is 'top tier'. You'll want to avoid his c.forward, so be careful with jumpins altogether.. Chances are, he'll be playing keepaway, and the only real advice I can give you would have to be in depth character matchups.

    ________
    Charlie vs Cyc

    Most of this fight will take place out of the corner, if the Cyc player is familiar with Charlie. He can Double Jump/SJ his way out of your traps, and aside from a /\ sj.strong xx RK, it's tough to stop that.. You best bet is playing mixup and baiting a c.forward. Either cross him up(Careful how you do it. I'd suggest an early Roundhouse RK, which 'doesn't' cross them up, then a late Forward RK that puts you behind them, into sj.jab ) and go for a combo, or see if you can block the launcher, land, and Sonic Blade Super/Sweep -> OTG link. Overall, you're stronger on the ground. You've got better pokes, superior ground supers, and the SB security(Don't be predictable with your SBs. He'll just Optic Blast you out of it.) Use Short Somersault more than usual, while he's in the air, to make him block and stuff his DJs/Bring him back down. You'll need High Anti Air techniques, like sj.strong xx RK(SJ.strong them on the way up[SJ.short -> strong works too, sometimes better], and chain it into Roundhouse or Razor Kick). While he's on the ground, rush him with c.short and Air RKs.

    ________
    Gambit vs Cyc

    Cyc doesn't exactly overpower Gambit. You've got a better ground game, you can stuff his j.roundhouse keepaway(sj.strong beats it out, every time), his j.fierce is one of the few Air vs Ground normals that makes cyc second guess his c.forward, and you can still throw safe Air Cards at him(3/4-Full screen, just above the range of his MoB Super, is where you want to throw them from). The best situation really, is to be midscreen and playing with his Knockdown -> d.c.short/Wave Dash Throw. In the corner, abuse the Jab Cajun Slash and d.c.short/forward. Typically, Gambit Rushdown goes along with the Wave Dash Throw(Gambit's 'really' well suited for it). In the corner, with cyc, you of course want to be careful with that. Shallow j.fierce is safer.

    And, as if that wasn't enough, I feel like running through Ryu now.. =O
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ________________________
    Ryu :karate:

    Ryu is basically Rushdown. The keys are using the right moves(A lot of his moves have very good frame advantage[You recover from hit animation before they recover from blockstun]), being good with FB Zoning, Throws, and his combos.


    ________________
    Rushdown Moves - Jabs, c.short, c.strong, hopkick[s.twd.forward], c.roundhouse, j.roundhouse, Air Hurricane

    Jabs - All shoto jabs(And Charlie) have good frame advantage. This means it's a good pressure move. This move basically has two purposes. 1.) Psych Setup for his throw. Threaten them with a jab, two, three, then throw. Or, threaten them with it, then sweep xx Safe Special Move(Or if the sweep lands, Hurricane Super) 2.) Good priority, high speed start to his combos.

    c.short - Key to the rushdown, often following his jabs. It's basically your mixup tool, and it's what you should use to keep them grounded. This threat is what keeps them from jumping away(That, and the fact that they keep having to block d.s/c.jabs)

    c.strong - Longer range, so it's useful if you're too far away for a jab. Also, this is what you want to setup your hopkick with.

    Hopkick - This is the most important part of his rushdown. It pulls you forward, 'and' it has frame advantage. It REALLY helps to learn the timing for a s.jab after this hopkick(As in, to make the s.jab combo), but it's not 100% neccessary. Follow up the hopkick with Jabs, generally, back into the pressure/mixup game.(A lot of new Ryu Players do Hopkick -> Hopkick -> Hopkick, ect ect. Not a very good idea. Sure, it has frame advantage, but not 'that' much.)

    c.roundhouse - Useful to tag on the end of a blocked chain and cancel it into a FB/Short Hurricane Kick. Also a useful tool combo wise, once you know yet another tricky Ryu link. c.roundhouse, s.short(OTG) works, and it's match worthy, so it helps to know that, too. You can do a lot with a s.short OTG with Ryu, but check Combos for that. Another option is to follow it up with the Hurricane Super. However, don't cancel into the super ASAP(They'll have time to roll in response to you activating the super). Pause for a second, then cancel into it.(They should already be laid out on the ground) This way, they have to roll before the super, and can't roll in response.

    j.roundhouse - Ryu's j.roundhouse has good air vs ground priority, and it's best used Shallow(This is because you can cancel it into Hurricane Kick, which carries him forward anyway) However, don't abuse it, because most good Anti Air can beat it out. It's a decent crossup however(Much like his j.forward), so it makes for a good followup to a Sweep, into his pressure/rushdown.

    Air Hurricane Kick(HK) - You've got two versions worthy of note. Roundhouse, and Forward. His Forward HK sends them straight down. If used vs a Grounded Opponent, it bounces them up in the air, so you can do Forward HK \/ /\ Air Throw. However, use it sparingly, because it's very counterable. His Roundhouse HK sends them flying away. This is a free combo in the corner, and away from the corner, it's a free ticket to Dash Jump at them, and now you're both in the corner. There 'is' something else you can do, but it requires tight timing.. You can do Air Roundhouse HK \/ SJ /\ Beam Super. With a sharp Tiger Knee Beam, you can catch Mid - Light opponents(Anyone as light as ~Cyc)

    ________________
    Zoning Moves - Air Hadouken, Jab DP, j.fierce

    Air Hadouken - This is basically Ryu's Sonic Boom. It's also what you'll need to keep them on the ground. The 'basic' series is SJ, Jab Hadouken close to the ground, land, Dash jump, Rush down. Of course, you don't want to be predictable. Multiple Air Hadoukens, mixing in Ground Jab Hadoukens in place of the air ones, and Wave Dashing instead of dash jumping, ect ect, are all ways to mix it up.

    Jab DP - Another tool to keep them out of the air. Best used sparingly, as unlike Ken, Ryu's rushdown game isn't helped very much by his Jab DP. However, if they're trying to avoid you by taking to the air, Air FBs + Jab DP is the best way bring them down. If a Jab DP connects, dash in and start up the pressure/rushdown.

    j.fierce - Yet 'another' Vs Air move. Ryu is loaded with them. His j.fierce has very strong air vs air priority, and beats out most air vs air. If they jump, j.fierce xx Roundhouse Hurricane Kick is a 'very' solid option. Either it connects, and you both go flying into the corner(Possible combo, if you're close enough to the corner), or they block it, you get serious frame advantage, and either land and Launch/Air Throw/Ground Throw/Rushdown/Do it again, ect ect.

    ____________________
    Techniques

    ________________
    Rushdown -
    d.c.jab is your best friend. The basic idea is d.c.jab -> c.strong -> hopkick, d.c.jab -> c.short -> c.strong -> hopkick, s.jab -> c.short -> c.roundhouse, ect ect. The hopkick is basically what ties together the pressure strings, and the d.c.jab is what gets you in, and gets it started. If you've got the timing down, once a hit lands, you can combo into a launch with the hopkick, s.jab link. If you don't have the timing down, then you can combo into a sweep, into the s.short(OTG) link. If you don't have 'that' timing down, you can pray for a deep jab to connect, and go right into launch, or, you can mix them up with throws. After a hopkick, you can throw. After a jab, you can throw. You can give them a little space, wait for them to jump, then jump and air throw them.. Or, jump and j.fierce -> Roundhouse HK. If it connects, free corner combo. If it doesn't, they land, Throw. Ect, ect, ect. Ryu is 'big' on Throws in XvsSF.

    ________________
    Air Control -
    Ryu's whole rushdown game depends on them being on the ground. To aid in that, you can use his Air Jab Hadouken, his powerful Air vs Air j.fierce, or his Jab DPs. He has a bit of a tough time with SJ Keepaway, though(I.E., Cyclops doing SJ -> Double Jump -> j.roundhouse all day), and Storm keepaway, but he owns the Normal Jump zone for free. j.fierce xx Roundhouse HK all day if they try to question that. This is one reason that, IMO, Ryu dominates Sabretooth, with ease.(Seems to be one of the most lopsided matchups in the game)

    ________________
    Tiger Knee Shinkuu Hadouken -
    Ryu's Beam Super comes out much faster in the air(Case in point, you can't link a standing super after a s.strong. But, you have time to cancel it into SJ, do it in the air, and 'still' combo it.) I'd suggest getting the timing for it down, and being able to do it as low as possible(Optimally, you want it to hit them even if they're crouching. But being able to hit a standing opponent is ussually good enough.) This is almost neccessary for fighting Dhalsim, as it's Ryu's best counter to a Drill. It's also the best FB/Hypergrav/Hail Storm/Anything Else counter he has.

    ________________________
    Combos!

    Ryu has a billion combos. 5 infinites, which I'll list..

    In corner, as a juggle -
    [ /\ j.jab -> j.up.forward -> j.up.roundhouse \/ ]

    In corner, as a juggle -
    [ s.jab -> s.strong xx Short Hurricane Kick(One hit) ]

    Anywhere, vs Grounded Opponent -
    [ s.jab -> c.strong -> s.twd.forward(hopkick) ]

    In corner, as a juggle, during FS -
    [ s.jab -> c.strong ]

    In corner, as a juggle, during FS -
    [ s.jab -> s.strong -> s.forward(One hit) -> s.fierce -> s.roundhouse ]

    Shorter version of Inf above -
    [ s.jab -> s.strong -> s.roundhouse ]

    But, blah on Infinites. Here's the fun stuff..

    ________________
    B&B Combos(Basic, good stuff)

    This is your basic, midscreen launch combo -
    c.fierce /\ sj.up.roundhouse xx Beam Super

    This one is the basic, midscreen painful Ryu combo. As usual, chock full of throws.
    Punch throw, s.short(OTG) -> Hopkick, /\ Air throw, Shinkuu Hadouken

    This one is a combo that can take them into the corner from 'really' far away.
    c.fierce /\(SJ Towards them, and hold towards them) sj.jab -> sj.short(Slight pause) -> sj.strong(One hit) xx Roundhouse Hurricane Kick(One hit) \/ s.short(OTG) -> Hopkick, /\ Air Throw -> More Combo.

    This, is the basic Corner Combo -
    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse(FS), sj.fierce -> sj.up.roundhouse \/ FS Ground Combo

    ________________
    Advanced Combos

    Another option midscreen, after a launch, goes like this.. The Forward Hurricane Kick is the one that sends them straight down.. The key to this combo is to space it out 'very' slowly, so that you've already started falling a bit before you do the sj.forward(Not sj.up.forward, just sj.forward, the normal air move which knocks them down a little) xx HK, land, and OTG.

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.forward xx Forward Hurricane Kick \/ s.short(OTG) -> Hopkick /\ Air Throw


    Ryu has 'insane' options in the corner.. One of them involves his glitchy Air Throw. After his air throw, if you hold Up, Ryu DSJs(Double Super Jump). Ryu's air throw naturally throws them up. So, you can actually continue the combo this way.. I'll list some options

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward, Air Throw, DSJ /\ sj.jab -> sj.strong(One hit) -> sj.up.forward, Air Throw, DSJ /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.forward -> sj.fierce(Slight pause) -> sj.roundhouse
    (Yes, the above combo goes very far Off the Screen. You have to memorize the timing.)

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward, Air Throw, DSJ /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.forward, Air Throw(You air throw them on the way down) out of corner, Beam Super
    (The above combo goes off the screen, but not far)

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward, Air Throw, DSJ /\ Air Throw(DSJ Up/Towards them, and air throw them again on the way by), DSJ /\ Air combo


    Ryu also has a strong FS Juggle game, with lots of ways to reset into his throws/airthrows. Some options..

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.fierce -> sj.up.roundhouse \/ s.jab -> c.strong, Air throw

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.fierce -> sj.up.roundhouse \/ s.jab -> s.strong -> s.roundhouse, Air throw

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.fierce -> sj.up.roundhouse \/ s.jab, Throw


    Also, there's a rule in XvsSF, where you can only do 2 throws in one 'Combo'(It doesn't matter if it adds to the Hit Count, the game is very liberal with what it calls a combo. They have to recover for a decent amount of time). There's a way around this with Ryu. You make them block a jab. It goes like..

    c.fierce /\ sj.jab -> sj.short -> sj.up.forward -> sj.up.roundhouse, sj.fierce -> sj.up.roundhouse \/ s.jab -> s.strong -> s.roundhouse, s.jab, Throw

    In the above combo, you 'are' able to combo a s.jab after the s.roundhouse, but you don't want to. If they block it, and you throw them when they land, the game counts it as a whole new combo. It resets the One OTG Per Combo rule, the 2 Throws Per Combo rule, ect ect.


    Overall, with such powerful combo basics(Air Throw/sj.up.roundhouse -> Beam Super ; His sj.up.roundhouse juggles ; DSJ Combos), and throw resets, Ryu combos are practically limitless.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Oh yeah.. New Match Videos up at http://addictz.darktemplarz.com

    The new ones are quite a bit more heated.. Some good Gief/Charlie/Gambit/Mag/Ryu, ect ect.. However, a word..

    They were all done online, and there 'was' lag and other such problems during the matches(Yeah, and we still did some crazy stuff), the reason you can't see it in the videos, is because only the Input was recorded. Later, the input was replayed, and captured to a video format.

    Also, there's still a sound problem, but it's still not bad stuff.



    Steve walks warily down the street, with the brim pulled way down low.

    P.S.: Free comb0s to whoever gets the easy song reference.. =o
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    Still taking character match requests? Dhalsim, provided it's not vs Storm or Magneto :bgrin:

    And it's from Another One Bites the Dust
    ......(thnx google)
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
  • ComboMasherComboMasher Joined: Posts: 507
    Anyone down for some xvssf or mvc1 today? Hit me up on aim: feartetsuo
    rogue/cyc!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • KayinKayin rawr Joined: Posts: 2,115
    Prozac you are truly a GOD for all of that Ryu info!
    "Games improve execution? Really? I thought the only way to improve execution is to post retarded questions about how to use a stick in tech talk." - Starcade RIP
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    What do you mean by Dhalsim Match requests.. How you would use Dhalsim vs other characters? How you would Fight dhalsim? How you would use Dhalsim in general? I don't really know a whole lot about using Dhalsim.. I'm decent with him, and I know a few tricks, but my techniques are a lot simpler than his potential. T-Kimura probably knows more Dhal stuff.

    No Problem about the Ryu stuff, though. Share the love. =O
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    Any info/tricks/combos you got the time for is appreciated, I thought you meant requests from the match videos though.
    Gettysburg, PA
    Netplay Poverty - http://www.twitch.tv/randomalt
    X-Men COTA and stuff - http://www.youtube.com/user/BattousaiCV
    Blurbs about games - http://twitter.com/BattousaiCV
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