Comparison of HDR Versions (PS3, 360, DC, CPS2)

GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
The top part of this post details identical speeds and properties between versions tested in 2009. Go to the bottom of this post for actual differences discovered later.

There have been rumblings among some folks in recent months that the PlayStation 3 version of Super Street Fighter II HD Remix is glitched. Having participated in quite a few HDR tourneys on PS3, I've noticed nothing different from the Xbox 360 version. I've been skeptical of these claims but since I couldn't say for certain, I decided to test the PS3 and 360 versions out.

First, I would like to note the environment and equipment used. I had 2 monitors side by side: a CRT TV and the Asus LCD monitor used at Evo. For the PS3, I used a 60GB model and for the 360, I used a Jasper Elite. I connected the systems to the CRT through the official composite cables and connected the systems to the LCD via the Elite's default HDMI cable. I performed control tests by switching TVs and the results were identical so there was no (or undetectably minute) lag. I controlled the PS3 through a HRAP2SA and the 360 through a TE along with official controllers for player 2. I could only do timing tests manually but since 99 seconds was plenty of time for any difference on the 2 monitors to manifest, that wasn't an issue.

Now, here were my findings after testing both systems under default settings (I didn't test any other settings) in local versus mode. For each finding, I tested multiple times using different characters and different stages:

1. The speed on both systems is absolutely identical at every speed level.
2. The PS3 loading time between rounds is faster by a fraction of a second so it always loads the next round just a bit faster than the 360. This means after the first round, the PS3 is ahead of the 360 but by a constant amount until the next round. After 2 rounds, the PS3 is consistently a few ticks ahead on the game timer.
3. Stage doesn't affect the timer speed (nor has it ever affected it in any version of ST). Brazil and Japan (Ryu) end at the exact same time as Spain and India.
4. Stage doesn't affect the game speed or length. Constantly jumping with the same character throughout any stage resulted in the same bounce. Also, using Dhalsim to push Zangief from one corner to the other takes the same amount of time in every stage.
5. In-game slowdown doesn't affect the game timer. Using lag-causing specials such as projectiles followed by laggy normals didn't make the timer go slower or faster.
6. I could consistently reversal out of Ryu's c.HP on wakeup in either version.
7. I could consistently produce a 3-hit rekka ken chain in either version.
8. All of the above regarding HD Remix mode also applies to Classic Arcade mode (ST mode). In addition, HDR's speed is identical to classic's speed.
9. The difference between T1-T2, T2-T3, and T3-T4 is always ~3 timer ticks apiece. The difference between T0 and T1 is a whopping ~16 timer ticks.

So my verdict is that there's no difference between the 2 versions except that the PS3 has faster loading between rounds.

Now, given that the PS3 and 360 versions appeared to be identical during gameplay, I decided to test out the Dreamcast version of ST (or rather, Super Street Fighter II X for Matching Service), on which HDR was supposedly based. I hooked the DC to the CRT through composite cables and left my PS3 on the LCD. I used an official Agetec arcade stick. And just to make sure I cover everything, I was using a legitimate Japanese copy of X played on a US DC loaded up through the DC-X boot disc. Here were my findings:

1. Stage doesn't affect the timer speed (nor has it ever affected it in any version of ST). Brazil and Japan (Ryu) end at the exact same time as Spain and India.
2. Stage doesn't affect the game speed or length. Constantly jumping with the same character throughout any stage resulted in the same bounce. Also, using Dhalsim to push Zangief from one corner to the other takes the same amount of time in every stage. Someone here had actually mentioned this before as a difference between the arcade version and the DC version and I can now confirm that.
3. Even HDR's max speed of T4 (1 above default) is still a couple ticks slower than the DC version's T3 (default). And the DC version still has turbo speeds up to T6.
4. HDR T3 (default) is a couple of ticks slower than DC T2 (1 below default) but a tick faster than DC T1.
5. HDR is a few ticks slower than DC ST at the same turbo level. HDR T3 is slower than DC ST T3, same for T2, same for T1. This is true whether the DC version is set to fixed or free speeds.
6. However, HDR T0 is actually the exact same speed as DC ST T0. Different characters, different stages, and induced slowdown made no difference. It seems if the developers did a speed comparison between the DC version and HDR, that was only checked on T0.

My conclusion here (and what most ST players have long commented on) is that HDR is quite a bit slower than the DC version of X. Plus, when you consider that T3 in Japanese X is equivalent to T2 in US ST and that US arcade tourneys have always been one level faster than that (at ST T3), HDR is really slow in comparison. I haven't checked any of the arcade-to-DC issues yet so I can't comment on any other aspect of ST accuracy.

Later on, I tried comparing the arcade version of ST to HDR. I used a Sigma AV6000 supergun with the default Sigma 8000TB arcade stick hooked up to a CRT with an S-Video output. On the CPS2 end, I used a US (blue) A board with a US (blue) ST B board. My ST was phoenix'ed but I was using the default US configuration and I left the speed at the default fixed turbo 2. The results were so variant that I couldn't continue after 2 stages:

1. In China, the difference in time was consecutively ~5 timer ticks faster compared to HDR T3 and ~3 ticks faster compared to HDR T4.
2. In U.S.S.R., the difference in time was consecutively ~20 timer ticks slower compared to HDR T3 and ~22 ticks slower compared to HDR T4.

I also did some rough tests in U.S.A. (Ken) and found the results similar to those in China. Remember that HDR stage speeds are constant and note that T.Akiba found China 4th fastest and USSR 5th fastest out of 16 stages in his tests on the JP version (T.Akiba's SF2 Data). Since I'm not sure how to proceed with this disparity of results, I didn't.

---

A basic timeline of DC ST's speed compared to HDR's speed goes like this (where each "-" represents roughly 1 timer tick difference by the time a round finishes):

HDR T0=DC T0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - HDR T1 - - - HDR T2 - - DC T1 - HDR T3 - - DC T2 - HDR T4 - - DC T3

Hopefully, these tests have shown that the PS3 version is not glitched as has been claimed (beyond the controller issues that also exist in the 360 version and other bugs outside the battles themselves) or even different from the 360 version. The only possibility of a difference that remains untested is input lag. It also shows HDR's classic mode does not accurately reflect DC ST's default speed.

At this point, I don't think it's worth my checking for more routine input issues and attributing it to the PS3 platform. If folks will recall, similar "imagining" of issues was present when the PS Street Fighter Collection version of ST was played and again when the DC version was used.

If there are very specific circumstances someone saw that produced obvious results, I'll still test. For simple combo mess-ups, I can only attribute that to unfamiliarity with PS3 controllers, muscle memory from inaccurate online speeds, or just plain human error. I welcome other folks to test for themselves though.

Differences brought up and corroborated by other folks:

1. The PS3 version has higher pitched sound effects and voices than the 360 version, esp. noticeable in Chun Li's voices (credit to skankin garbage).

2. The 360 version has 2-3 frames of additional input lag compared to CPS2 ST while the PS3 version has 4 frames of additional input lag compared to CPS2 ST (credit to papasi).
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Comments

  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    Nice job dude. I guess it was just the placebo effect coming into play for most of us.

    Thank you for taking the time to do these comparisons.
  • megaultrasupermegaultrasuper Joined: Posts: 833
    So if I understand correctly Classic Mode needs to be set to Turbo 4 if it wants to be close to the US arcade free select 3? And even then it will be significantly slower? Cause if I remember right the DC version was still slower than both the arcade X and Turbo.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Well, it's closer, but it's still far from close. The difference between HDR T3 and DC X T3 (equivalent to US ST T2) about 6 timer ticks.

    First, since zass already proved in his PS2-DC ST tests that fixed and free speeds are for all intents and purposes identical and I've come to the same conclusions, I'm assuming that as well (since the DC version, going by JP speeds, doesn't have a free select US T3). The difference between HDR T4 and DC X T4 (equivalent to ST T3) is about 7 timer ticks, which is a noticeable change.
  • megaultrasupermegaultrasuper Joined: Posts: 833
    So going from that I guess the real question now is whether or not Turbo 4 should be the standard from now on? Everything else seems to be good.

    HDR has always seemed slow to me. I vote Turbo 4 for purely selfish reasons.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    There have been rumblings among some folks in recent months that the PlayStation 3 version of Super Street Fighter II HD Remix is glitched. Having participated in quite a few HDR tourneys on PS3, I've noticed nothing different from the Xbox 360 version. I've been skeptical of these claims but since I couldn't say for certain, I decided to test the PS3 and 360 versions out.

    - I could consistently reversal out of Ryu's c.HP on wakeup in either version.
    - I could consistently produce a 3-hit rekka ken chain in either version.
    If people are wondering why a reversal against Ryu's crouching fierce and a 3-hit rekka chain were specifically tested here is most likely why. Sirlin wrote that there were clearly input issues during some of his matches when he was using Fei Long and that, due to input issues within the game, he wasn't able to consistently use Rekka punches. John Choi and others also claimed that reversals were failing to come out and that it was without question the fault of HDR.

    I've had clear instances where I've been blocking attacks (holding back on the joystick), offline, and my opponent's attacks were successful even though I was absolutely holding block. I still don't see how this proves that on the PS3 (and possibly the 360) that HDR isn't dropping inputs. We've seen the problem where you could simultaneously hold forward and backward using the analog and D-pads that had to be patched. It's going to take incredibly thorough amounts of testing to absolve HDR of its input issues.

    One thing if you do have a way of testing that I'd like to know is how many frames of input delay are there in Classic Mode and HDR. If you could test the input delay for HDR that would be pretty excellent.
    My conclusion here (and what most ST players have long commented on) is that HDR is quite a bit slower than the DC version of X. Plus, when you consider that T3 in Japanese X is equivalent to T2 in US ST and that US arcade tourneys have always been one level faster than that (at ST T3), HDR is really slow in comparison. I haven't checked any of the arcade-to-DC issues yet so I can't comment on any other aspect of ST accuracy.
    So going from that I guess the real question now is whether or not Turbo 4 should be the standard from now on? Everything else seems to be good.

    HDR has always seemed slow to me. I vote Turbo 4 for purely selfish reasons.
    HDR != ST

    If you want to play ST then play ST on GGPO or get a CPS2 board and have your friends over. Making HDR as close to ST as possible for the tournament standard is getting old at this point. HDR is not ST and never will be. It's a new game and should be treated with its own set of rules.

    I understand that's it's neat to see the differences in speeds between arcade ST, DC, CCC2, and now HDR. Or to test input delay in a game. Threads like this are always interesting and exciting to me. But please, let's hold off on changing the tournament standard of HDR, merely so that it falls more in line with ST.

    Default for HDR should be 16:9, Remixed everything, Turbo 3 (or default) speed. I thought it was lame enough when the EVO rules switched from 16:9 to 4:3 but changing the speeds as well? Enough. HDR is not ST.

    If we want EVO to play a game that's not ST but as close to ST as possible why not fire up AE and allow only ST and Old characters?
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    HDR != ST

    If you want to play ST then play ST on GGPO or get a CPS2 board and have your friends over. Making HDR as close to ST as possible for the tournament standard is getting old at this point. HDR is not ST and never will be. It's a new game and should be treated with its own set of rules.

    I understand that's it's neat to see the differences in speeds between arcade ST, DC, CCC2, and now HDR. Or to test input delay in a game. Threads like this are always interesting and exciting to me. But please, let's hold off on changing the tournament standard of HDR, merely so that it falls more in line with ST.

    Default for HDR should be 16:9, Remixed everything, Turbo 3 (or default) speed. I thought it was lame enough when the EVO rules switched from 16:9 to 4:3 but changing the speeds as well? Enough. HDR is not ST.

    Quoted for truth!
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    I never understood why evo went to 4:3. I thought that was terrible. Is there a good reason for that?

    Evo should be run at the default settings of the game.
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
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    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
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  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    I never understood why evo went to 4:3. I thought that was terrible. Is there a good reason for that?

    Is NKI a good reason?

    (I'll let you live that down one day NKI, I really have no beef - it's just fun blaming you for it. :smile:)
    Evo should be run at the default settings of the game.

    Agreed aside from game breaking stuff like Akuma, etc..
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    Hm, reading that thread it seems Ponder decided, not NKI. He says
    While 16:9 is better for spectators, 4:3 is better for the players. Moves which cause sprites to go near the top of the screen create positioning problems for the player on the ground because they can't see their sprite. Examples include Ken's fierce upper, Vega's wall-dive, and Chun Li's wall jump. While this "positional advantage" is part of the game, HD Remix is mostly a refresh over a game which traditionally has been played at a 4:3 aspect ratio, and favoring the enjoyment of the audience over the familiarity of the players with the game is not something we're ready to do.

    So 4:3 it is!.

    I have to say that as a Claw and Chun player (two of the characters Ponder mentions), I much prefer 16:9. And all HDR tournaments in the northwest have been run at 16:9 (Northwest Majors, for example).

    So my vote is for 16:9 at next Evo.
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
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    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    VF4: Dropping inputs is always a possibility. However, what possible operation could there be in the programming that would cause such a thing? The analog-digital glitch was a result of a new feature combined with a programming omission.

    If you use a autofire switch on LP to perform LP chains, there's not a single instance where the LPs are cut off by a dropped input. Try it; even the slow setting on the TE (probably around 10 Hz, if that) never yields a single miss. Now, there's still a possibility of a particular situation causing an issue but if you have an HRAP, leave LP on full auto (which is set to 23 Hz), mess around with the other side, and see if the LP chain ever pauses when you're not hitting. I never saw it make a pause while I was messing around. It's a logical impossibility for me to prove every single case so if anybody can find a reproducible input glitch, that would be helpful.

    As for input delay, I'd be very interested in seeing what it is but I'm afraid right now, I don't have the equipment to accurately count it. Hopefully, somebody else has the will and means.

    Regarding tournament standards, HDR will always be at T3 speed with default dip switches, Udon sprites, and OC ReMix music. However, I still think that 4:3 is the optimal aspect ratio but I'll leave that beaten horse alone and trust ponder to maintain his wise decision next year.

    As for using AE, its speed is also off, old characters can't be throw-softened, and o.Sagat and claw have issues, amongst other differences. And I doubt Evo would be willing to use the JP PS2 Best version of HSF2 for some fixes. But again, this topic wasn't about ST vs. HDR but rather a look into whether HDR's classic mode has noticeable differences from ST and primarily a comparison of the 2 HDR versions.
  • jameswalton101jameswalton101 Joined: Posts: 396

    I have to say that as a Claw and Chun player (two of the characters Ponder mentions), I much prefer 16:9. And all HDR tournaments in the northwest have been run at 16:9 (Northwest Majors, for example).

    So my vote is for 16:9 at next Evo.

    I'm with you there. I also vote for 16:9.
    James Walton
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    VF4: Dropping inputs is always a possibility. However, what possible operation could there be in the programming that would cause such a thing? The analog-digital glitch was a result of a new feature combined with a programming omission.
    Here's a scenario. Let's say that there is some odd programming error where if the 2P controller presses backwards that the 1P controller might accidentally be unable to also press backwards. That would mean that there would be a chance, that if the 2P was doing an attack and holding backwards simultaneously, that the 1P side might not be able to block. This is a crazy hypothetical example but things like the overlapping analog and D-pad inputs give HDR a reputation for the most unique issues to say the least.

    Sirlin said that changing things around had tons of unintended consequences in the balancing stages. I couldn't find the entry on his site but he talked about how he changed Honda's buttslam hitboxes around and he started noticing that he was getting hit by attacks from the across the screen for no reason. So he turned on the hitboxes and did a butt slam, and sure enough, his changes had inadvertently added in stray hitboxes to the buttslam move.

    We know that Zanief's SUPER command had several input issues that were resolved with the most recent patch. However T.Hawk has the same issues with his new SUPER command and they still remain in the game. It is possible when you have a full SUPER meter with T.Hawk to perform the new motion, end the joystick in back or downback, and get a dragon punch. This happens from within and out of throw range for Hawk in HDR.

    I don't know what Sirlin or Choi did to get the game to drop their inputs but replicating the scenario is the best way to test it. Who knows, maybe Ryu can't reversal DP against a meaty cr.fierce only on certain stages, or only from the 2P side? Or maybe Rekkas drop against only Claw and Cammy. It would require so much time and effort to test these out that it almost seems not worth it unfortunately.
    Regarding tournament standards, HDR will always be at T3 speed with default dip switches, Udon sprites, and OC ReMix music. However, I still think that 4:3 is the optimal aspect ratio but I'll leave that beaten horse alone and trust ponder to maintain his wise decision next year.
    I never understood why evo went to 4:3. I thought that was terrible. Is there a good reason for that?
    Evo should be run at the default settings of the game.
    This is very disappointing. 16:9 is better for spectators. For players, the edge cases of ken's dp, chun li's jump and vega's wall dive are fine. You can deal with that being slightly different in the rare cases they come up. I actually only play the game in 16:9 and have no problems. Also, this isn't 1990 so it's going to look kind of weird in a bad way to present the game in a worse looking way. It helps everyone when we don't appear like such an obscure niche that we need to use old standards even when monitors are now widescreen. shrug.

    So, how about 16:9?
    Here is a 16:9 vs 4:3 poll with 60% of people favoring wide over standard.

    Anyways if this a comparison thread we might as well get into the 16:9 and 4:3 thing as well in my opinion.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    Hm, reading that thread it seems Ponder decided, not NKI.

    NKI was the most outspoken player for using 4:3. I think the reasons NKI came up with for using 4:3 are what Ponder used to make his decision.

    This is what Damdai had to say about it.
    There was equal support for widescreen and standard in this thread. Why change it to standard? Most of the people who don't like the widescreen mode don't like HDR anyway. Let the HDR fans enjoy the game how they play it, not how a few die hard ST fans want to play it for the few days out of the year that they actually do. If we are playing on widescreen tvs, we should be playing in widescreen mode.
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    Well, I think we should really push to have it to 16:9 for next Evo. I completely agree with what Damdai wrote.
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
    http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com

    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
    http://web.archive.org/web/19970219205915/hannibal.mit.edu/things/sf2/sf2code.txt
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Thanks for doing all the testing Ganelon! I'm not sure why the two versions felt different to me. Maybe I'm just crazy.

    And yeah, I hope Evo goes widescreen next year.
  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    good shit, i always knew hdr felt way slower.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Thanks Ganelon for the tests. Speed 3 definitely felt slower the moment I played Remix for the 1st time. That's why I always play training mode and vs mode offline on speed 4, cuz it feels right.
  • skankin garbageskankin garbage ARE YOU OKAY!? Joined: Posts: 961
    You know, this is a pretty weird difference, but having played PS3 and XBox360 versions of this game, there is one difference...all the sound effects on the PS3 version are slightly higher pitched, maybe even a bit faster, but I don't think so. Unfortunately, the only reason I notice this is because I have perfect pitch, so I don't have any empirical data to support my claim.
    http://jamieobeso.blogspot.com/ - My own personal insights about games; totally inspired by David Sirlin and James Chen.

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    "*I'd* be mad if Jesus had to fight Ivan Ooze.
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    I also prefer 16:9. 4:3 just looks really ghetto, like straight from the hood. Anyways, thanks for the testing Ganelon.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    You know, this is a pretty weird difference, but having played PS3 and XBox360 versions of this game, there is one difference...all the sound effects on the PS3 version are slightly higher pitched, maybe even a bit faster, but I don't think so. Unfortunately, the only reason I notice this is because I have perfect pitch, so I don't have any empirical data to support my claim.
    Oh yeah, I also noticed this. It's especially noticeable for Chun Li.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • SnatcherSnatcher The True Enemy Joined: Posts: 920 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You know, this is a pretty weird difference, but having played PS3 and XBox360 versions of this game, there is one difference...all the sound effects on the PS3 version are slightly higher pitched, maybe even a bit faster, but I don't think so. Unfortunately, the only reason I notice this is because I have perfect pitch, so I don't have any empirical data to support my claim.

    I've always noticed it with a few of Ken's sound effects, namely his throw. Cool to see some other people corroborate this.
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    You know, this is a pretty weird difference, but having played PS3 and XBox360 versions of this game, there is one difference...all the sound effects on the PS3 version are slightly higher pitched, maybe even a bit faster, but I don't think so. Unfortunately, the only reason I notice this is because I have perfect pitch, so I don't have any empirical data to support my claim.

    You are correct. Chun for example is much higher pitch on PS3.

    EDIT: Posted this before I saw Thelo's reply. He beat me to it! :/
  • JigglyNorrisJigglyNorris The Low Tier Hero Joined: Posts: 1,279
    Cammy sounds like a chipmunk on the PS3 version.
  • deadfrogdeadfrog Joined: Joined: Posts: 6,787
    Ah, good lookin' out. Thanks for the info, man! :smile:
  • BullDancerBullDancer Mentos, The Freshmaker Joined: Posts: 9,399
    Wow always thought there was a significant difference, now if only psn was better i would get the hdr for the ps3 instead of selling it like i was thinking so i can play everyone. Hmmm im not sure yet though.
    "Rock abandoned Neesa there like you were gonna abandon your son and wife and live alone with your TV"~Akuma-HAX
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Offline may not be, but online is.

    I've clearly noticed ken warps through guile after a kneebash if he jumps immediately. Lag is not an explanation.

    Moonchilde has found vega's cr.punches can be swept out of range online.

    I even saw a cammy glitch the other day with her sprite.

    I hope there is some major underlying problem, that fucks the offline portion and gets capcom to actually overhaul this version.

    Dreams don't come true that often though.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • SLEZZYSLEZZY NOT Sleazy Joined: Posts: 326
    I even saw a cammy glitch the other day with her sprite.

    What was that?
    1. Play dishonorably
    2. Receive hatemail
    3. ???
    4. Profit
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    What was that?

    Everytime my opponent used her thrust kick, her sprite got all distorted with her whatever color he had chosen for her. It only distorted at the top part where it kind of hangs on whiff.

    Haven't seen it, but if it can happen once, it can happen again.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • megaultrasupermegaultrasuper Joined: Posts: 833
    Recently I've been seeing the super spark glitch with Balrog when I play off-line a lot. It happens maybe once every 20 matches.

    This glitch is pretty broken when it happens too because if you try to react punish the first dash straight punch it will just go straight through your attack because it still has super invincibility.

    So because of this glitch a player has the extra threat of having to worry that if he tries to react punish a Balrog who has a full super meter he might eat 50% damage.

    Is this glitch present in the Xbox version? If it is not then that is a pretty big gameplay difference.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I don't follow. What exactly is this glitch and what does it have to do with the super spark?
  • megaultrasupermegaultrasuper Joined: Posts: 833
    There is a glitch in HDR concerning Balrog's Super and possible other supers.

    Sometimes the first punch of the super will come out with a delayed super spark. This means that you won't see a shadow or super spark during the first few frames of the move. Sometimes this delay can last as long as the first punch.

    The super sound still plays as normally though.

    I play with Zinac every other day or so and this has happened at least once the last 3 times we've played. We play a lot of Balrog vs Fei matches, I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

    NKI says he has seen it here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=195051

    He says it looks like the game froze, but in my experience it's more like the game jumps forward and skips frames.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Ah, not surprising when it was Backbone that added the new special effects, which occupy different space and timing from the old effects. I know I've seen Blanka's electricity glitch (where the electricity currents remain a la DBZ super saiyajin for the rest of the round) on the PS3 version pre- and post-patch.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Ah, not surprising when it was Backbone that added the new special effects, which occupy different space and timing from the old effects. I know I've seen Blanka's electricity glitch (where the electricity currents remain a la DBZ super saiyajin for the rest of the round) on the PS3 version pre- and post-patch.

    The whole online PS3 game is backboned.

    I don't know if its the game, my joystick, or my internet connection or all of them, but my game drops inputs randomly.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    That doesn't sound like something with the game itself, maybe something with a controller/converter? The netcode in both versions is pretty laggy compared to ST on GGPO but I know I haven't encountered any instance where I pressed a button out in the open and it didn't come out (although folks are free to post their own experiences). The Live netcode is certainly smoother overall but it's still like comparing the merits of Hawk and Gief compared to Dhalsim IMO.

    Sometimes, if it's really laggy (like connecting to South America, Asia, eastern Europe, or someone on a really slow connection), the game will teleport so much that it'll skip by entire moves. I've seen that happen on both PSN and Live.

    I always play with no smoothing so I'm not sure whether higher smoothness settings affect anything besides adding longer (but more fixed) delay. Anyway, online HDR has a noticeably faster speed than offline so its accuracy is off by the outset.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    That doesn't sound like something with the game itself, maybe something with a controller/converter? The netcode in both versions is pretty laggy compared to ST on GGPO but I know I haven't encountered any instance where I pressed a button out in the open and it didn't come out (although folks are free to post their own experiences). The Live netcode is certainly smoother overall but it's still like comparing the merits of Hawk and Gief compared to Dhalsim IMO.

    Sometimes, if it's really laggy (like connecting to South America, Asia, eastern Europe, or someone on a really slow connection), the game will teleport so much that it'll skip by entire moves. I've seen that happen on both PSN and Live.

    I always play with no smoothing so I'm not sure whether higher smoothness settings affect anything besides adding longer (but more fixed) delay. Anyway, online HDR has a noticeably faster speed than offline so its accuracy is off by the outset.

    The game will randomly drop my qcf inputs. Mostly online, but there are quite a few new glitches being discovered with the PSN version online.

    It may not affect offline at all which is fine, but no one in Tennessee plays HDR, they play fucking SFIV. So I'm up a shit creek in a leaky boat.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Dark GaidenDark Gaiden Joined: Posts: 284
    Great in-depth post, however while testing offline in Local Mode, I definitely noticed a speed difference between the PS3 and 360 versions. I'm currently using a Sony 62' LCD (1080i). While playing on Ryu stage and selecting Ryu for both sides, I did basic jumping tests (aka what Sabre originally did when the beta came out) and observed how long the character was in the air from pressing the Up directional button. On the PS3 version, it took longer for Ryu to reach the ground as compared to the 360 version on Speed 3. In essence, the only way the character (Ryu) matched the same time of descent was to select Speed 4 for PS3. Whereas for the 360 to match the same time of descent in the air on PS3 Speed 3, I had to select Speed 2.

    I'll try to do some more tests with different chars and stages on another TV (CRT) later this week.

    Quick Question Ganelon, when conducting your tests for the 360, did you change the systems output resolution to match the LCD at 1080I or1080p or did you just leave the 360 on the default 480p?

    From early testing it seems that the HDR scene may have to adopt different default speeds settings for tourneys based on which console used.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I performed my testing on whatever the default output is for HDMI and composite on either machine. I didn't change the visual settings at all, nor did I change any other setting on either console or in the game itself (meaning speed was default when performing the PS3-360 tests) except to make the game display in 4:3 resolution (it's a possibility 16:9 has differences but I wasn't able to test that with a CRT).

    I'm pretty sure the default HDMI output to a 1080p display (e.g. the Evo monitor) is 1080p on both machines. The game is drawn in 720p so the systems themselves must be upscaling that image to 1080p when I set it that way. If you don't use the same resolution as your HDTV, the TV handles the upscaling into its native resolution for you, which is almost always slower than letting your system do the task.

    As stated, I also reversed monitors with identical results. I'm not sure how you're testing using 1 monitor (timing the difference isn't exact enough IMO) but unless you're recording everything, you'll need to see the images side-by-side to be certain. I held the up direction with multiple characters in mirror matches across multiple stages and the results were always the same, with the exact same jumping rhythm up through the very end.

    I definitely think you should change TVs, make sure settings are reset or defaulted, and use a control in your tests if not already.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Sometimes, if it's really laggy (like connecting to South America, Asia, eastern Europe, or someone on a really slow connection), the game will teleport so much that it'll skip by entire moves. I've seen that happen on both PSN and Live.

    I always play with no smoothing so I'm not sure whether higher smoothness settings affect anything besides adding longer (but more fixed) delay.
    Bolding the important parts. I've noticed a very, very strong correlation between people who complain about constant teleporting and people who play with zero smoothing. I strongly recommend you leave smoothing at the default setting, it works very well and I was actually quite jarred when I came back and randomly played on GGPO last week. I forgot how jumpy GGPO actually was in practice.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Well, it's true the game will be smoother with smoothing on but the cost of the game delaying its fastest graphical output by a few frames later will really affect response time in low-ping games.

    You may be able to deal with that but because my response times are slightly below average (according to all the reaction time tests online), I have little leeway. I'd rather have input responses closer to offline most of the time rather than a delay all the time.

    GGPO teleports much less at any ping but if you find it inconsistent, you can always adjust smoothing there as well.
  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Yeah, I know that's the theory (non-zero smoothing = less time to react). But the thing is, I'm pretty sure that in practice, having the game jump around all the time from zero smoothing is going to shoot your reactions way worse than that extra frame or two would.

    As I said, I just see a definite correlation between being badly affected by lag and disabling smoothing, it's not just you. I recommend you at least try it out for a while with default smoothing, since my intuition is that you might have disabled it at the very start and not actually tried playing with it set at default. Maybe you'll still feel that zero smoothing is best for you and revert it, which is fine, but it's possible you'll find it just makes for a smoother experience overall.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I actually used default smoothing the first few days I played HDR and do remember it being smoother as you said. However, it also felt like I had a harder time escaping from tick throw mixups. But sure, you could have worthy advice right there; I'll definitely give smoothing a go again next time I play HDR and see how it feels.
  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,631
    I also prefer 16:9. 4:3 just looks really ghetto, like straight from the hood. Anyways, thanks for the testing Ganelon.

    The current champ doesn't have a problem with it why should anyone else?

    Seriously though lets be honest it looks ugly as hell compared to 16:9, the poll showed the majority prefers it, and not being able to see your character fly off screen for a fraction of a second isn't going to be your downfall if you lose and with that said I'm surprised evo decided to go 4:3.
    I know I've seen Blanka's electricity glitch (where the electricity currents remain a la DBZ super saiyajin for the rest of the round) on the PS3 version pre- and post-patch.

    You know they left it in purposely and we all love it and thanks for taking the time:tup:
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Yeah, I know that's the theory (non-zero smoothing = less time to react). But the thing is, I'm pretty sure that in practice, having the game jump around all the time from zero smoothing is going to shoot your reactions way worse than that extra frame or two would.

    As I said, I just see a definite correlation between being badly affected by lag and disabling smoothing, it's not just you. I recommend you at least try it out for a while with default smoothing, since my intuition is that you might have disabled it at the very start and not actually tried playing with it set at default. Maybe you'll still feel that zero smoothing is best for you and revert it, which is fine, but it's possible you'll find it just makes for a smoother experience overall.
    I actually used default smoothing the first few days I played HDR and do remember it being smoother as you said. However, it also felt like I had a harder time escaping from tick throw mixups. But sure, you could have worthy advice right there; I'll definitely give smoothing a go again next time I play HDR and see how it feels.

    I played with smoothing too for a few days but after 10 or so rollbacks, I'd rather see the teleporting then not be able to "trust" what my eye's are seeing.

    I only get rollbacks now if the ping is like 200+ and I don't even try when the connection's that bad.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • Dark GaidenDark Gaiden Joined: Posts: 284
    I performed my testing on whatever the default output is for HDMI and composite on either machine. I didn't change the visual settings at all, nor did I change any other setting on either console or in the game itself (meaning speed was default when performing the PS3-360 tests) except to make the game display in 4:3 resolution (it's a possibility 16:9 has differences but I wasn't able to test that with a CRT).

    I'm pretty sure the default HDMI output to a 1080p display (e.g. the Evo monitor) is 1080p on both machines. The game is drawn in 720p so the systems themselves must be upscaling that image to 1080p when I set it that way. If you don't use the same resolution as your HDTV, the TV handles the upscaling into its native resolution for you, which is almost always slower than letting your system do the task.

    As stated, I also reversed monitors with identical results. I'm not sure how you're testing using 1 monitor (timing the difference isn't exact enough IMO) but unless you're recording everything, you'll need to see the images side-by-side to be certain. I held the up direction with multiple characters in mirror matches across multiple stages and the results were always the same, with the exact same jumping rhythm up through the very end.

    I definitely think you should change TVs, make sure settings are reset or defaulted, and use a control in your tests if not already.

    I'll definitely try a different TV and use some more control methods as numerous variables can lead to different results. One thing to note when I did my "pseudo" tests (4:3 mode on both systems) earlier in the morning with that Sony LCD; I wasn't using HDMI cables for either system, instead I was using the HD Component Video Cables that support 1080P resolution. The cable came standard with the 360 (well older model 360s anyway) and as for the PS3 I purchased a HDTV Component Cables that also supported 1080P (from Walmart...I forgot the brand name). With those type of cables, you have to manually select the output resolution for the systems or they will just stay in the factory default of 480P. My Sony LCD only has one HDMI slot and that is already being occupied by my PC.

    I'll try to round up a CRT with video out and capture the footage. It may take me awhile since I'm not too familiar with capturing software on the PC (I prefer the MAC for situations such as this but I would have to completely rearrange my office just to get the Mac in the other room).
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,176
    The game is drawn in 720p so the systems themselves must be upscaling that image to 1080p when I set it that way.

    Every piece of literature I've read that mentions resolution says HDR is a 1080p native game.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Yeah, you're right, my mind was on SFIV when I wrote that. The graphical assets in HDR were designed to be displayed in 1080p 4:3 format. So a 1080p monitor should be the best looking and fastest processing (no scaling) viewing device for this game.

    DG: Sounds great. I know composite is the same (using the official cables that came with the system) so hopefully, you'll come to the same results.
  • nomrahnomrah Joined: Posts: 1,043
    To add some fuel to the fire - HDr at Season's Beatings was run on PS3, speed 4. A group of us played about 8 hours of casuals on speed 4 and we all agreed that it felt "right". Daigo, while not being the end all of HDr knowledge by any means preferred speed 4 as well.

    I'd really like to see where all this testing ends up so we can agree for future tournaments. I'm personally of the camp to just switch over to 360.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Well, Sirlin stated that the HDR speeds were supposed to be based on ST arcade speeds:
    Sirlin wrote:
    14) Game speed. The game speeds match the arcade version of the game, but this is confusing so bear with me. In SF HD Remix, speed 3 is the default and is intended for tournament play and online play. It?s the same speed as Japanese arcade speed 3, which is also known as US arcade speed 2. You don?t really have to understand what?s going on with all that, just play at the default speed 3 and be happy that it matches the arcade.

    I suppose if there's a serious interest about matching the seemingly ideal arcade ST T2 (X T3) speed (even though US ST tourneys were always on US T3, one step faster), I can get my supergun and ST board out to see how HDR compares.
  • MavrickMavrick "I Am Cold Blooded" Joined: Posts: 975
    VF4: Dropping inputs is always a possibility. However, what possible operation could there be in the programming that would cause such a thing? The analog-digital glitch was a result of a new feature combined with a programming omission.

    If you use a autofire switch on LP to perform LP chains, there's not a single instance where the LPs are cut off by a dropped input. Try it; even the slow setting on the TE (probably around 10 Hz, if that) never yields a single miss. Now, there's still a possibility of a particular situation causing an issue but if you have an HRAP, leave LP on full auto (which is set to 23 Hz), mess around with the other side, and see if the LP chain ever pauses when you're not hitting. I never saw it make a pause while I was messing around. It's a logical impossibility for me to prove every single case so if anybody can find a reproducible input glitch, that would be helpful.

    As for input delay, I'd be very interested in seeing what it is but I'm afraid right now, I don't have the equipment to accurately count it. Hopefully, somebody else has the will and means.

    Regarding tournament standards, HDR will always be at T3 speed with default dip switches, Udon sprites, and OC ReMix music. However, I still think that 4:3 is the optimal aspect ratio but I'll leave that beaten horse alone and trust ponder to maintain his wise decision next year.

    As for using AE, its speed is also off, old characters can't be throw-softened, and o.Sagat and claw have issues, amongst other differences. And I doubt Evo would be willing to use the JP PS2 Best version of HSF2 for some fixes. But again, this topic wasn't about ST vs. HDR but rather a look into whether HDR's classic mode has noticeable differences from ST and primarily a comparison of the 2 HDR versions.


    Dude your so wrong, at EVO, Final Round and, SB4 everyoneincluding myself can see that the PS3 version plays way diffrent then the XBOX one. For one the combos do not link I play BISON as a main and, on the 360 i can TOD like cake but, on the PS3 its not so. For a long time i thought it was me so i did the same thing side by side with tv. I could not land TODs with bison on the PS3, if i did 20 on each i could do 5 out of twenty on the PS3 and, 18 out of Twenty from the Xbox version were not talking about speed becuse, the XBOX runs slower offline the sameway the PS3 does and, thats not me just saying that it's a fact. I asked Sirlin myself at EVO about that and, he said it does run faster online does it does offline.

    As for input dropping the PS3 doesnot allow mashing to link to combo like the 360 does so i was inputing the combos my self one of them that does not link that should on the PS3 is if you take DeeJay and RYU and use DJ jump MK cross Ryu then try and, like the cr. HP which should link does not DJ will pass through ryu every time like clock work. Certin people the game works fine with like SHOTOs but others like Chun if you do a super low cross MK to a standing MP or MK the attack will go in the wrong direction but, will not link even if its Gief or Honda. MEssing up your combo so, Ya the PS3 is Diff inferior to the Xbox Version.
    As my dear friend Wax once said "this game is like the special olympics - even if you win you're still a retarrrd" Quotable Quotes
  • MavrickMavrick "I Am Cold Blooded" Joined: Posts: 975
    Its on people $1000 HDR lest do this

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=212102
    As my dear friend Wax once said "this game is like the special olympics - even if you win you're still a retarrrd" Quotable Quotes
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