Comparison of HDR Versions (PS3, 360, DC, CPS2)

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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I had a chance to perform some more testing tonight:

    I just tested the times between every speed on PS3 and 360 and they were identical. The difference between T1-T2, T2-T3, and T3-T4 is always ~3 timer ticks apiece. The difference between T0 and T1 is a whopping ~16 timer ticks, which means there are still a lot of frames being skipped in the meantime.

    I also got out my supergun and tested out 2 stages on the CPS2 board (speed: turbo 2) but they were so variant that there was no point continuing. The difference in timer ticks in China was ~3 timer ticks on HDR T4 and ~5 timer ticks on HDR T3. Surprisingly, in U.S.S.R., speed varies ST because T3 was different by ~20 ticks and T4 by ~22 ticks... except that HDR was faster by that much. Note that HDR stages are constant and that T.Akiba found China 4th fastest and USSR 5th fastest in his tests on the JP version. I have no idea what to say about that.

    And some more possible PS3 issues brought up by Grog after SB4 that I tried out:

    1. dictator's crossup j.MK,c.MK where the c.MK didn't come out: This worked fine for me under a few different wakeup situations. I even did it 10 times in a row in practice mode without a hitch. Since moves aren't buffered and any button press while still in recovery is ignored, this seems like a normal execution error.

    2. Honda's LK splash where no splash or LK came out: Again, no problem at all. I did it in multiple positions and in different timing and with other strengths but there were no issues.

    3. DeeJay's crossup j.MK,c.HP where the c.HP went through the opponent: I tried this and sure enough, if the j.MK was performed too high to combo, the c.HP always whiffed. After investigating further, the reason was clear. Dee Jay's standing hitbox is slightly bigger than his crouching hitbox (you can check this out in training mode).

    If the opponent walks forward up to Dee Jay while Dee Jay is crouching, he/she can get in slightly further than if Dee Jay was standing. And if the opponent then crouches, neither character gets pushed back. If the opponent's crouching hitbox is thin enough (Chun is very thin, shotos are thin enough, Fei Long is too fat), Dee Jay's c.HP starts too far (just like claw and Dhalsim's c.HP) and misses the opponent altogether.

    So when Dee Jay executes a crossup and immediately crouches, the opponent is never pushed back. Dee Jay is too close to the opponent and thus whiffs the c.HP. This happens the same way in normal ST, as well as the 360 version.

    At this point, I don't think it's worth my checking for more routine input issues and attributing it to the PS3 platform. If folks will recall, similar "imagining" of issues was present when the PS Street Fighter Collection version of ST was played and again when the DC version was used.

    If there are very specific circumstances someone saw that produced obvious results, I'll still test. For simple combo mess-ups, I can only attribute that to unfamiliarity with PS3 controllers, muscle memory from inaccurate online speeds, or just plain human error. I welcome other folks to test for themselves though.
  • MurderbydeathMurderbydeath Joined: Posts: 906
    Ganelon, I appreciate all the testing, but honestly, people are just full of shit. It'd be best to just ignore them. I saw Grog bitching about crossup mk -> low fierce whiffing, but he was watching some ultrascrub trying it in training mode and he was drunk. I do it all the time, PS3 and X360. Anyways, thanks again.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    9. The difference between T1-T2, T2-T3, and T3-T4 is always ~3 timer ticks apiece. The difference between
    ...
    3. Even HDR's max speed of T4 (1 above default) is still a couple ticks slower than the DC version's T3 (default). And the DC version still has turbo speeds up to T6.
    4. HDR T3 (default) is a couple of ticks slower than DC T2 (1 below default) but a tick faster than DC T1.
    5. HDR is a few ticks slower than DC ST at the same turbo level. HDR T3 is slower than DC ST T3, same for T2, same for T1. This is true whether the DC version is set to fixed or free speeds.
    6. However, HDR T0 is actually the exact same speed as DC ST T0. Different characters, different stages, and induced slowdown made no difference. It seems if the developers did a speed comparison between the DC version and HDR, that was only checked on T0.

    I posted this over in the frame data thread, but it's interesting for you to come up with that. The XBox360's HDR turbo settings work like this:
    Turbo 0: 32 frames displayed, 0 frames skipped
    Turbo 1: 32 frames displayed, 6 frames skipped
    Turbo 2: 32 frames displayed, 7 frames skipped
    Turbo 3: 32 frames displayed, 8 frames skipped
    Turbo 4: 32 frames displayed, 9 frames skipped
    (Tested for samples on the order of 5000 displayed frames. The skip pattern's period is always a divisor of 32.)
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • EA MegamanEA Megaman That's what she said Joined: Posts: 841
    The graphical assets in HDR were designed to be displayed in 1080p 4:3 format. So a 1080p monitor should be the best looking and fastest processing (no scaling) viewing device for this game.

    What resolution the textures were designed for has nothing to do with performance.

    The fact that the assets arent large enough to render pixel accurate into the frame buffer is really nothing new. It happens in 3D games all the time. Because you can move around the world pixels projected to the screen always occupy different areas. This is filtering hardware is built into graphics chips. The cost (performance) of this is hidden and the only thing it causes are filtering artifacts.

    Either aliasing (shimmering, noise) when the texture gets smaller on the screen, or magnification (blurring) when it gets larger. Sure it would be possible for this game to ship textures that were 1:1 with the display, but then they would have to have textures for every possible resolution/aspect that people could set on their device. Instead we have bi-linear/tri-linear filtering and mip-mapping support built into graphics chips to handle this for free.

    The only time there may be performance implications is when the framebuffer is rendered larger/smaller than the output resolution and the output scaler is activated. If the game is already running close to 16ms per frame, the hardware scaler might add half a millisecond to the rendering of the frame, reducing the output speed lower than 60fps.

    When setting up the renderer on the PS3 or Xenon, games typically (but not always) query the hardware to see what resolution it is currently set at. They will create the backbuffer at the highest resolution that doesnt exceed the output setting, or (more of a concern on the 360/EDRAM) exceed the memory capacity of the graphics hardware. I highly doubt the hardware scaler is even active on this game.

    Scaling is a big problem with TVs however. If you set your console on 480p, and upscale that to 1080p using your TV the scaler probably doesnt run at 60hz, so the image you see may be a few frames behind what the console is outputting.

    On a side note, I was wondering if you might be able to test/capture the screen jump in ST and 16:9 HDR. I'm curious what the relative difference is between the two versions. You would expect the HDR 16:9 screen jump to be just ST but scaled up. However, it doesnt look like that and it's either my eyes, or something else. Plus I dont have a way to record Super Turbo, only HDR.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    A few days back when HDR was first announced to be in 16:9 (ugh, but it is what is is), I tested around in practice mode for a few hours to try and get used to it. During that time, I was trying a lot of claw's combos including his B&B (j.HP,c.MK,c.MP). Being a link, you must time each button after recovery within a limited number of frames. Between c.MK and c.MP is about 4 frames to combo, not incredibly difficult but easy to mess up if you're not on point.

    I normally perform the combo partially by muscle memory and partially based off visual cues. I tried it first of all on 360 for awhile and all was well. When I moved onto PS3 right afterward however, my c.MP would often not combo, seemingly with the same timing. I was sort of confused why that's the case and realized I was depending on the visual indicators for when claw would retract his leg from the c.MK. Once I started timing the c.MP slightly earlier than what I was just doing on 360, my muscle memory took over and I could perform the link consistently again.

    Well, that got me thinking of other folks complaining about combos dropping between versions. As explained above, I extensively tested the speed differences inside the actual matches for 360 and PS3 and found both to be identical. The only matter left to test was input lag and nobody had appropriate means of testing it. But now, we know SFIV and SSFIV on PS3 is confirmed to have 1 frame more input lag than on 360. Folks who attended Stunfest have told me that NKI (one of the first to report on input lag in CCC2) could feel lag on PS3 HDR as well. Many US players (quoted above) have felt that things were different and this time, spending lengths of time in practice mode on both systems one immediately after the other, I have to personally lean with the notion that there appears to be input lag on the PS3.

    Now, this is not empirical proof of any difference (I could be imagining it for all I know), just another opinion cautioning that it's potentially possible the 360 version may in fact be superior for the input reason many have felt. We'll need an actual test to prove the existence of input lag. Of course, whatever the outcome is, it's too late to change Evo (plus, SSFIV players will be dealing with the same). So as many have said, it's a good idea to play the PS3 version offline if you haven't already. Players who don't use strict link combos and don't rely on visual cues probably won't notice anything. DGV alluded to another thread where people do have the means to perform input lag tests and hopefully shed more light into this issue for future tourneys: http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=231128
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    I think evo might be able to run hd remix on xbox if enough xboxes are brought, but if not enough are brought then hdremix stays on ps3.

    Maybe if the word is sent out it can be done?
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    :wow: Even Ganelon is saying it now. :rofl:
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Now, this is not empirical proof of any difference (I could be imagining it for all I know), just another opinion cautioning that it's potentially possible the 360 version may in fact be superior for the input reason many have felt. We'll need an actual test to prove the existence of input lag. Of course, whatever the outcome is, it's too late to change Evo (plus, SSFIV players will be dealing with the same). So as many have said, it's a good idea to play the PS3 version offline if you haven't already. Players who don't use strict link combos and don't rely on visual cues probably won't notice anything. DGV alluded to another thread where people do have the means to perform input lag tests and hopefully shed more light into this issue for future tourneys: http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=231128

    I could probably put together an input lag testing set-up, but I don't have a PS3 and I'm ...reluctant... to spend $370 for a PS3 testbed that I'd probably never use for anything else. I suppose I could try to track down someone in the area who has most of what would be necessary, but in practice, I'm not sure it's going to be all that useful anyway - the people who play competitively will end up having to practice to adjust regardless, and the publishers are unlikely to patch for it - especially for SF2 games where we probably won't see any publisher activity 'till the next generation or two of consoles have come out.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,617
    To clarify.

    NKI did not say there was inputlag on PS3 HDR.

    He said there was inputlag on HDR.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Ha, my opinion means nothing but I wanted to bring it up just because it seemed noticeable to me in that particular situation and in case folks were forgetting about the input lag clause here. Like I said, I favor no console, only accurate facts. A test is still the only thing worth mentioning in the first post.

    Also, I highly doubt Evo will change consoles. Like I said, SSFIV will remain PS3 no matter what and it has a much larger audience. If there's a 1-2 frame delay, we would probably have to deal with it for now just as they are. Plus, it's too early to mention that when no tests have been performed yet. You can't make such a huge change without proof.

    Anyway, Shari brings up a good point: it would be even more worthwhile to see whether the natural input delay is still 4 frames (plus 0-1 frame input lag in the DC port). It seems the frame recording folks can determine those numbers as well though.
  • trinifella1trinifella1 Joined: Posts: 315
    Guessing it's GGPO ftw when it comes to ST!!!
    "Foolish Worm"
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I believe DGV mentioned some testing he was planning to do to compare offline versions. But if it's ever proven with concrete evidence that PS3 has more input lag than 360, then I will update the Wiki (or somebody else can do it).
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Well it appears that its 1 frame + any that the xbox version has.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101

    That's for SF4. As far as I'm aware, HDR has yet to be determined, which is why I didn't bother mentioning anything yet in the first post here.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    That's for SF4. As far as I'm aware, HDR has yet to be determined, which is why I didn't bother mentioning anything yet in the first post here.

    Okay cool, thanks. I corrected the Wiki.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I was told, at SCR that 4x3 and Widescreen mode have different speeds, but I did some testing, and the frame skip is the same or very close to the same.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    So, I finally got around to putting together an input delay testing set-up last night. It looks like Xbox360 HDR is at least a frame slower than Arcade Super Turbo. (This is unsurprising considering it's based on the Dreamcast version.) It appears that (1) different sorts of input changes are handled differently by the system, and (2) that input delay is affected by turbo frame skip, so I'll have to work up a testing program. Once I have those pieces, I may track down a PS3 to do version comparisons, or reactivate my XBLA account to test the effects of network smoothing on input delay.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Thanks for starting the testing, Rufus. NKI tested the DC version to have 0-1 frames of input delay so if it's a range of 2 values, then that should be normal (since every other port varied similarly).
  • SirlinSirlin Joined: Posts: 141
    The PS3 version clearly has something wrong. Speed 3 on ps3 is way too slow, and there is general wonkiness of dropped inputs, or something that makes things just not come out when they should. The HD Remix players I've played with have all agreed that something is really wrong with PS3, they don't exactly know what. I have muscle memory to do rekkax3 easily, and I could do it only about 25% of the time on PS3 speed 3, and then 100% of the time on Xbox speed 3, same madcatz TE stick. In any case, the PS3 version should not be used for any kind of competition. Much better to spend the effort to set up xbox 360s, even if players bring them. I also bet a lot of the people with a negative opinion of HD Remix played on PS3 and might not realize it's screwy.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    PS3 speed is exactly the same as 360 speed save for loading times (where PS3 is faster). I'm willing to bet anyone any amount of money on the accuracy of my speed test in the first post. Or like I said, you can just do like I did and compare the 2 versions side to side: start a match with the same characters on both setups, hold up, and notice that the jumping rate is identical and the match lasts the same relative time.

    Rather, the difference in versions has almost certainly to do with with input lag instead (although this hasn't been scientifically tested). A lot of players use visual identifiers for combos in conjunction with muscle memory (which I didn't even realize until I came across this case) and by the time you already see it on the PS3 version, it's too late. To confirm that what I'm saying, keep practicing rekkas for an hour on the PS3 version until you get them 100% of the time. Then, immediately switch to 360 and you'll notice you're doing them way too early. I guarantee that anybody who tries this test will come to the same conclusion. At least 3 frames input lag is my guess for the PS3 version.

    I also felt lag on the 360 version compared to CPS2 but it's certainly not as major and it's possible the dynamic stage speeds in the CPS2 version is throwing me off. Hopefully, Rufus's work will reveal the answers. But either way, I agree with Sirlin and the majority that folks playing on HDR should use the 360 version whenever possible. I've bolded my input lag stipulation in the 1st post to make it clearer to everyone and will revise the entire thing once someone uncovers concrete evidence of this or other differences.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    The HD Remix players I've played with have all agreed that something is really wrong with PS3, they don't exactly know what. I have muscle memory to do rekkax3 easily, and I could do it only about 25% of the time on PS3 speed 3, and then 100% of the time on Xbox speed 3, same madcatz TE stick.

    I'm pretty sure that EVO is sponsored by Sony, so the Xbox is going to be a very hard sell for anything official.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    it's probably cause I'm slow but whats the conclusion from those two tests?
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    well?
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • KacomKacom Joined: Posts: 268
    The last two posts humor me.
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 366
    I think it basically means 360 HDR has the same input lag as the DC version (4 or 5 frames). CPS2 ST has 4 frames of input lag for comparison (I think...).
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I think it basically means 360 HDR has the same input lag as the DC version (4 or 5 frames). CPS2 ST has 4 frames of input lag for comparison (I think...).

    Yeah, that's about the size of it.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    PS2 CCC2 ->CRT 8 frames #
    PS1 ST ->CRT 4 frames #
    DC ST ->CRT 5 frames #


    cps2 s-video encoder->CRT 4.5 frames *

    cps2 vga encoder->LCD 7-frames *

    xbox classic mode->LCD 6-7 frames *

    xbox classic mode->CRT 6-7 frames *

    PS3 classic mode->LCD 8 frames

    ps2 ae->CRT 6 frames *

    ggpo
    w7 aero 8-11 frames (and a lot of dropped inputs) *
    w7 fullscreen 7-9 frames *
    w7 disable aero 7-8-frames *
    xp 6 frames *

    supercade
    w7 aero 8-10 frames (and a lot of dropped inputs) *
    w7 fullscreen 7 frames *
    w7 disable aero 7 frames *
    xp 6 frames *


    xp offline fba version 029708 6 frames *

    xp offline mame version 0141b 6 frames *


    xbox SSF4 ryu cr. rh 6 frames *

    PS3 SSF4 ryu cr. rh 7-8 frames (most of them at 8 frames) *


    Console hdmi output to Asus V236H in gaming mode

    Emulation are tested on Dell Dimension 9200 2ghz core2duo / ATI 4850 / Asus V236H

    thanks ultracombo for lending the ps3 for testing
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    papasi's videos should provide all the confirmation anyone needs that the 360 and esp. the PS3 version have additional input lag compared to CPS2 ST. It's this input lag, and not any difference in speed, that everyone has been complaining about the PS3 version acting different above.

    If 1-2 frames (the difference between 360 and PS3 HDR) could disrupt so many players' timing, imagine how much 2-3 or 4 frames (the difference between 360 or PS3 HDR and CPS2 ST) could affect ST players. That's no problem for folks wanting to stick to remix mode (since it's technically a different game) but it shows classic mode isn't accurate enough to stand in for ST for players deeply attuned to the timing.

    Rufus: if you're able to, please try the exact same tests as papasi (well, what NKI originally came up with when testing CCC2) and see if that's also what you get. Not every action animates at the same moment so this is really a relative speed test on those moves. I worked with papasi to get some test controls down with frame-by-frame in Kawaks so if you find any differences running the exact same tests, feel free to post up.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    If 1-2 frames (the difference between 360 and PS3 HDR) could disrupt so many players' timing, imagine how much 2-3 or 4 frames (the difference between 360 or PS3 HDR and CPS2 ST) could affect ST players. That's no problem for folks wanting to stick to remix mode (since it's technically a different game) but it shows classic mode isn't accurate enough to stand in for ST for players deeply attuned to the timing.

    Rufus: if you're able to, please try the exact same tests as papasi (well, what NKI originally came up with when testing CCC2) and see if that's also what you get. Not every action animates at the same moment so this is really a relative speed test on those moves. I worked with papasi to get some test controls down with frame-by-frame in Kawaks so if you find any differences running the exact same tests, feel free to post up.
    PS2 CCC2 ->CRT 8 frames
    PS1 ST ->CRT 4 frames
    DC ST ->CRT 5 frames
    ...
    cps2 s-video encoder->CRT 4.5 frames
    cps2 vga encoder->LCD 7-frames
    xbox classic mode->LCD 6-7 frames
    PS3 classic mode->LCD 8 frames
    ps2 ae->CRT 6 frames
    ...
    FWIW, you really ought to specify the LCD you used.

    The way I did the tests doesn't actually involve a display of any kind. I don't have all the bits to do VGA testing and I'm not sure I want to bother right now. I don't have a PS2, PS3, Dreamcast, CPS-2 or any of the appropriate versions of the games available.

    In practical terms, this seems mostly academic. For people who really care, superguns are not that expensive. Everyone else is going to have to try the versions, and make up their own mind if it matters, and any serious competition is going to specify what the exact version and platform of the game is going to be.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    I wonder why the PS3 lags so much. Do other games on the PS3 have more lag compared to the 360?
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    FWIW, you really ought to specify the LCD you used.

    Console hdmi output to Asus V236H in gaming mode
    The way I did the tests doesn't actually involve a display of any kind. I don't have all the bits to do VGA testing and I'm not sure I want to bother right now.

    Yes, the test needs to be done END-TO-END. Earlier someone was testing fba's input lag by using the cps2 system input test menu & emulator's frame pause function.

    He would go into the cps2 system input test menu, pause the emulator, hold a button down, forward 1 frame, and check that the input display on screen toggle from 0 to 1. And then claim that it is lagless.

    But in practice that test is invalid.

    i.e. The LCD might still need some time to process the digital signal sent from the console via the hdmi cable, even it claims that the panel has a response time of 2ms.
    In practical terms, this seems mostly academic. For people who really care...

    The PS3 is as worst as PS2 CCC2. I remember Gian canceled all his MM once he found out that is the version being used. I don't think it is just academic because the timing difference really throw people off with the combo, etc.

    And with 4 additional frames of delay, you have 4 less frames to react to moves, which is a big deal as well.
    I wonder why the PS3 lags so much. Do other games on the PS3 have more lag compared to the 360?

    Since we have recorded the sf4 test using your ps3 the other day, I'll try to do the same test on my xbox sf4 later and compare the result. I think it would be similar (1-2 frames behind)
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    the input lag is bigger in ps3 because Capcom creates games(all genres), first on xbox 360, then they port the game to ps3, is not the console itself, is the way how they port the game from one system to another.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

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  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    Yeah 4 frame lag is really terrible.
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Console hdmi output to Asus V236H in gaming mode
    You need to test the console versions on CRT. No matter the general opinion, people, including myself, still feel a difference when playing on so called lagless monitors compared to CRTs.

    CRT is the only sure way to determine the lag of the system used.

    Also the response time of a monitor has nothing to do with the input lag. The response time meassures how fast a pixel can go from 1 value to another and back again. High response times are the cause of ghosting efefcts and such. But it doesn't meassure how fast the monitor responds to a signal.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    You need to test the console versions on CRT.

    Nah I'm not gonna bother. These tests are done with the setup that people ACTUALLY use.

    PS3/Xbox360 + LCD are used in 99% of majors in the US. There is no point to test PS3/Xbox360 + CRT since no tourney in US is gonna switch to all CRT with PS3/Xbox360.

    Same reason I'm not gonna test PC emulation output to CRT.

    Have you tried playing PS3/Xbox360 with non-HD CRT TV? The text on the screen are unreadable...

    Also I didn't say they are pure input lag. It could be a combination of input/display lag on various systems/display. But in either case, you would see the animation changes X frames late on screen.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • mad possummad possum Joined: Posts: 1,091
    Nah I'm not gonna bother. These tests are done with the setup that people ACTUALLY use.

    PS3/Xbox360 + LCD are used in 99% of majors in the US. There is no point to test PS3/Xbox360 + CRT since no tourney in US is gonna switch to all CRT with PS3/Xbox360.

    Same reason I'm not gonna test PC emulation output to CRT.

    Have you tried playing PS3/Xbox360 with non-HD CRT TV? The text on the screen are unreadable...

    Also I didn't say they are pure input lag. It could be a combination of input/display lag on various systems/display. But in either case, you would see the animation changes X frames late on screen.

    Well, to be fair you put up numbers of CPS2 to CRT numbers, which would be used even less than PS3/360 on CRT. Also, most tournies, big or small, won't have arcade set-ups. We need to find the best solutions with what most people have.

    Most local tournies around here use CRT TV's. Plus lets face it, most ST and HDR tournies are going to be self-run, possible side tournies from here on out, and I think most of us would rather play it on CRT TV's. I don't think it would that hard to get a couple of the HDR guys going to a tourney to bring a 360 and a CRT TV (that's what's going on for the tourney in Indy that Silver is running).

    A 360 plus CRT TV shouldn't be any worse input wise than a DC for ST (which is what was used for years), and would be a lot more managable to set up.
    GGPO name : madpossum
  • DontBlowThis.comDontBlowThis.com ST Revolution Joined: Posts: 54
    How many hdr players use crt's?

    Seasons beating and nec ran arcade st. Final round, ufgt7 and mwc will be running it soon. Arcade st is the standard for majors now.
    Welcome to the Super Turbo Revolution, streaming on random sundays at http://dontblowthis.com/
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Well, to be fair you put up numbers of CPS2 to CRT numbers, which would be used even less than PS3/360 on CRT. Also, most tournies, big or small, won't have arcade set-ups. We need to find the best solutions with what most people have.

    I do think that arcade setup or supergun + CRT are used more than PS3/360 + CRT. Show me examples of tourney using PS3/360 + CRT. We can easily find examples of tourney with arcade ST or supergun setup.
    Most local tournies around here use CRT TV's. Plus lets face it, most ST and HDR tournies are going to be self-run, possible side tournies from here on out, and I think most of us would rather play it on CRT TV's. I don't think it would that hard to get a couple of the HDR guys going to a tourney to bring a 360 and a CRT TV (that's what's going on for the tourney in Indy that Silver is running).

    A 360 plus CRT TV shouldn't be any worse input wise than a DC for ST (which is what was used for years), and would be a lot more managable to set up.

    I don't know if you have tried setting up a sf2 tourney with these equipments, but in most cases CRT is your major problem since it's hard to transport.

    If I'm gonna have CRTs at the venue (ie. major problem solved), I might as well play it on the real thing with supergun instead of playing a console port. Does that make sense?

    edit:
    Final round, ufgt7 and mwc will be running it soon.

    Final round will also run HDR on ps3 with horrible 4 additional frames of lags, sigh.....

    Why would someone prefer to play HDR on a CRT when there are lightweight HD monitors

    which is exactly his (and my) point...
    that have been proven to have zero input lag?

    You meant display lag. It's not proven yet... it might not have ghosting issue. but there might be processing delay before the digital signal from hdmi cable is rendered on the LCD panel...



    btw post above updated with xbox/ps3 ssf4 test. ps3 is 2 frames behind
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
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  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    How many hdr players use crt's?

    Why would someone prefer to play HDR on a CRT when there are lightweight HD monitors that have been proven to have almost no input lag at all? Maybe cost I guess...
    Seasons beating and nec ran arcade st. Final round, ufgt7 and mwc will be running it soon. Arcade st is the standard for majors now.

    Ah.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    papasi, unblock me on on ggpo. I'm sorry that I said "your test are just like you, probably retarded". lettuce be friends again. I'm cereal.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • HAD0-KINGHAD0-KING Joined: Posts: 214
    lettuce be friends again. I'm cereal.

    ^ truly ROFLMAO worthy!

    Here's my 2cents, (which is worth a whopping $1500 in Monopoly Money) it's called HDRemix.....HDRemix. So yea...tests run on HD sets with HD cabling should be the benchmark for these tests.

    Also, anyone keeping a running list of the potential HDR roster for Final Round? If not, I propose we start one. If you're going, reply "I AM" :D
  • GrogGrog discombobulatingly Joined: Posts: 3,617
    I actually play HDR on a CRT just because I like the size and I don't like widescreen mode. I just can't bring myself to buy a 27" monitor when I already have a CRT that's still working fine.
    no one cares syxx

    www.dontblowthis.com
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Nah I'm not gonna bother. These tests are done with the setup that people ACTUALLY use.

    PS3/Xbox360 + LCD are used in 99% of majors in the US. There is no point to test PS3/Xbox360 + CRT since no tourney in US is gonna switch to all CRT with PS3/Xbox360.

    Same reason I'm not gonna test PC emulation output to CRT.

    Have you tried playing PS3/Xbox360 with non-HD CRT TV? The text on the screen are unreadable...

    Also I didn't say they are pure input lag. It could be a combination of input/display lag on various systems/display. But in either case, you would see the animation changes X frames late on screen.
    I've been playing HDR on a small SD-CRT since release and all the text is perfectly readable.

    Anyways the demand was for a test to determine the input lag inherent to 360/PS3 HDR. So all of that is irrelevant, the point is not what people use. The point is that to test something, you need to develop a method that will only detect that which you want to test. Your tests are unscientific, without eliminating other possible sources of lag your tests mean very little.

    I'm not trying to be a dick but why are you being stubborn about this if the means to test it properly are readily available to you. Knowing the inherent lag of 360 and PS3 HDR is worthwhile information. Say the inherent lag of HDR on 360 is the same as DC. That would be great news for all of us who do not have the arcade game available to us. So please test HDR on CRT, I'd be very grateful if you did.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,088
    the input lag is bigger in ps3 because Capcom creates games(all genres), first on xbox 360, then they port the game to ps3, is not the console itself, is the way how they port the game from one system to another.

    Capcom didn't do it, Backbone did. For some reason the PS3 version seems to be more of an afterthought. Even Sirlin has railed on the PS3 version numerous times.
    ST/HDR: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I'm not trying to be a dick but why are you being stubborn about this if the means to test it properly are readily available to you. Knowing the inherent lag of 360 and PS3 HDR is worthwhile information. Say the inherent lag of HDR on 360 is the same as DC. That would be great news for all of us who do not have the arcade game available to us. So please test HDR on CRT, I'd be very grateful if you did.

    Based on NKI's testing of the Dreamcast version, and the tests that I ran on the XBox 360 offline , the input lag is similar - the differences should be smaller than those caused by hitting buttons right after, or just before the game checked for input.

    (To be clear: NKI tested on a CRT with an LED and a camera, so his results are effectively +/- a frame because of the camera's frame rate. Up to the camera's frame rate, the input delay seems to be the same.)
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
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  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Yea to me HDR on CRT feels pretty much the same as DC.

    My preference for non arcade (which face it, is a situation a lot of us are in) ST is HDR classic mode on SD-CRT with old sprites. It actually doesn't look bad at all this way on a SD-CRT. HDR also fixed that weird delay after ROUND X sound that was in the DC i think.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    I've been playing HDR on a small SD-CRT since release and all the text is perfectly readable.

    If HDR is only game you got on xbox/ps3 then yeah maybe it's fine.
    Anyways the demand was for a test to determine the input lag inherent to 360/PS3 HDR.

    Nope, the test is to determine the input/display lag of the whole setup. Not just the system.

    Rufus's test doesn't go through the display, but the player can only rely on the display to tell if the move comes out. The test has to be done end-to-end to mean anything at all.
    So all of that is irrelevant, the point is not what people use.

    It has everything to do with what setup is being used by people out there.
    If I want to go crazy I can also test it with 100" projector that people used for watching movie, no?
    The point is that to test something, you need to develop a method that will only detect that which you want to test. Your tests are unscientific, without eliminating other possible sources of lag your tests mean very little.

    If you want to have a comprehensive combination of everything you'll also need to get different sticks/pad, etc. You realize how much work that is going to be right?
    I'm not trying to be a dick but why are you being stubborn about this if the means to test it properly are readily available to you. Knowing the inherent lag of 360 and PS3 HDR is worthwhile information. Say the inherent lag of HDR on 360 is the same as DC. That would be great news for all of us who do not have the arcade game available to us. So please test HDR on CRT, I'd be very grateful if you did.


    I am not being stubborn but please realize there is only like 2% of people out there using that setup. There is no flying chance that tournament is going use PS3/Xbox + CRT, period.

    If you don't have arcade board / cab available to you, from the test above I'd say mame/fba are miles better than classic mode as it is still the real thing, but emulated. You can use CRT with PC if you really are not comfortable with LCD, but I really cannot bother to test PC+CRT either.

    Like HadoKing said, if people want to play HDR, they will play it with new sprites, 16:9 with a HD display. Classic mode is a lost cause for ST heads as far as offline play is concerned (online it's ok, as a lot of people just can't play on ggpo/supercade).

    [ Actually I did try to look for my composite cable that comes with my xbox yesterday night. But I might have thrown it away already..., and I don't have the ps3 anymore]
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    friends again pap? :)
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    Ah shit..    
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