Capcom admits Brawl is a fighting game

245

Comments

  • FlugaFluga ???WHAT GOES HERE??? Joined: Posts: 357
    Street Fighter III was originally trashed when it came to arcades. The first one was eh at best, the second one was decent but broken, and the third was great. Needless to say, 3s had outstanding graphics and sound design-- but people hated it at first. Same reasons.

    -It was too slow.
    -The mechanics of Street Fighter were still TOTALLY different.
    -The roster was criticized for not having enough SFII favorites included.
    -People though the game system rewarded turtling as opposed to offensive rushdown.

    There were a lot more, but that's how it was. Look up "History of Street Fighter" articles anywhere and you'll see what I mean. Why the hell you think it took Capcom so long to create IV?

    3s of course, is sick. And we look at it now in those terms. But honestly, nearly every complaint lobbied against Brawl since it's release by the smash community(Save for maybe tripping, which is pretty stupid.), is an identical, if not similar complained lobbied against SFIII. The "This game isn't competative" or, "this game will destroy our community" arguments ALL sound really familiar.

    EDIT: Oh... and the reason I said that we hate you for that-- is because much of the Smash community attempts to diffuse shit by scapegoating Brawl. But even more than that, most of them complain about shit that's really their flaw as players, and yet they blame it on the game.

    The tier list in that game is Biased( and I say this as a former Sonic player, who's character was moved up eight spots to mid[which I wanted to happen, but not for the reasons it did]), and has somewhat to do with matchups, but more so how to please the community and stop people from complaining. People bitch and moan about Brawl's effectiveness in the scene, yet fail to adapt. They write out long diatribes about how Brawl ruined the community, and how Melee should have just been the only game to have ever existed.

    Oh, and Brawl +. That project is so fucking ridiculous words can't even describe. Not once did the SF community, ever in anger of the game mechanics of any game go "Hey guys, lets go and change the mechanics back to ST mechanics and make it MORE competitive... feel me?" Alpha 3 was played as Alpha 3(including infinite's), 3s was played as 3s, and God damn it-- IV is played as IV. The immense amount of complaining from the Smash community is immature, and it doesn't make them look very intelligent when it's going on. In a few years, maybe they'll realize this in retrospect, but if not, then their community won't really take a step forward again. Just saying.

    Except for the small part about Brawl taking very little skill to actually play compared to other simplistic fighters on the market. All you have to do in Brawl is learn Meta Knight and you will win. Its literally a matter of character choice over skill.
  • redrapperredrapper I don't even use this name no more... Joined: Posts: 622
    Except for the small part about Brawl taking very little skill to actually play compared to other simplistic fighters on the market. All you have to do in Brawl is learn Meta Knight and you will win. Its literally a matter of character choice over skill.

    I don't agree with that statement. Personal experience dictates as such. Honestly, the character I chose when I played the game had a 7-3 matchup with MK, and was considered low tier. I didn't have nearly as much of a problem with MK as I do with Chun in 3s playing Ryu.

    This is where I think the community splits. But at the same time, if you do agree with the aforementioned statement, just play melee and SHUT THE FUCK UP about Brawl. We hate your community because people don't just shut the fuck up and play their own game. The more you come here and complain about how you hate brawl, the more you're digging a whole for yourselves. The converse is the same. If you're coming here to defend Brawl and how "It is a competative game, and you're not like them..." shut the fuck up. Just play your game, and stop justifying your existence. You're digging a hole.

    If you like Melee better... good shit. Just go play it. But don't come around here talking shit on a game you don't like, because all you end up doing is making yourself look like a twelve year old GameFAQs member, who won't stop whining about stupid shit no one cares about.
    I don't know what to put here.
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    We also fail to realize that we are just scapegoating, because most of us ignore the main tenants of a fighting game-- the idea behind adapting and mindgaming, and instead blame our losses on a character whose abilities we don't attempt to circumvent, but instead attempt to complain about, and ban because we can't get past him. "

    Just saw this. MK was never officially banned so I dunno where you're getting this from. Also, if I recall correctly, your community banned Akuma not only from ST but from HDR too. PLEASE don't give the smash community shit for having a DEBATE over whether to ban Mk or not when you guys banned him at evo even though alot of the community it seems didn't think that he should be banned.

    Way to set an example, guys. :rofl:
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I wholeheartedly agree with with a lot of what you have to say.

    But you have to realize that the community is HUGE, just split into a Brawl population and a melee population, albeit with people who play both in the middle. It's not about just shutting up and playing your own game, because that would split the community even more. The bitching you claim to be annoying, although you are every bit justified in thinking so, is really not as prevalent as you might think. For the most part on the forums, Brawl players stay in their boards and Melee players do the same.

    The tier list is not biased. Sonic was moved up with the discovery of Aerial Spin Charge + other techniques and the overall improvement of his matchups and tournament placings. Wario rose significantly as well, with players Fiction figuring out how to use him most effectively and placing very high in tournaments.

    I don't see anything wrong with Brawl+. It's simply an entirely community-driven project designed to make the game more fun and more balanced. There's nothing wrong with that if people decide to. In fact, I sense a spot of hypocrisy. You tell us to "shut the fuck up and play our own game" and yet you bitch about Brawl+? :|
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    The tier list is not biased. Sonic was moved up with the discovery of Aerial Spin Charge + other techniques and the overall improvement of his matchups and tournament placings. Wario rose significantly as well, with players Fiction figuring out how to use him most effectively and placing very high in tournaments.

    Completely right. Smash's metagame advancement is so completely player-driven and time-dependent that you have to give the game time before you can consider character rankings, etc. I remember back when Link was higher on the Melee tier list because no one had really mastered L-canceling and Links OOS options are pretty silly against people that attack your sheild(lololol SPin attack!). Hell, that was back when Sheik was the best in the game too and people begged for her to be banned.
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • redrapperredrapper I don't even use this name no more... Joined: Posts: 622
    Just saw this. MK was never officially banned so I dunno where you're getting this from. Also, if I recall correctly, your community banned Akuma not only from ST but from HDR too. PLEASE don't give the smash community shit for having a DEBATE over whether to ban Mk or not when you guys banned him at evo even though alot of the community it seems didn't think that he should be banned.

    Way to set an example, guys. :rofl:

    There's a very, very big difference. In ST-- Akuma can't be dizzied, he has an air fireball, half his moves are invincible, and he's DELIBERATELY made impossible to beat. In fact most of the times his hit box disappears.

    In HDR, I don't really agree with the Akuma ban... but then again, other people will give you reasons for it.

    The debate over MK I thought was stupid, because he's a character who's just good at a lot of things. He's not OP, or Broken. There are ways to beat him and everybody just see's fit to complain about how OP he is and how they can't get past any of his normal shit.

    And maybe I should rephrase this last part: Every couple of months, the board has a bunch of Smash players come here and explain to us how it's not their community's fault for the perception they have been given-- and they attempt to circumvent all of the blame on Brawl. THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's unbelievably childish.

    And if you want me to stop bitching about Brawl+, then fine. I was just illustrating for you why SRK has such a problem with the whole thing. I did this so that people would stop making these stupid threads, and talk about the mechanics of this game as opposed to "LOL, U PLY BRAWLZ! ROFL! GO PLY MELEE. KTHXBYE!"

    If you think it's hypocritical. Then fine. Keep posting about it. But You still sound like twelve year old's whining whenever you do it... and a good portion of SRK just get's annoyed whenever you do. I'd love to see Brawl AND Melee at an Evo in the future(in the PROPER way), but with the way this community acts on these boards... I'm not so sure it's going to happen.
    I don't know what to put here.
  • FlugaFluga ???WHAT GOES HERE??? Joined: Posts: 357
    I don't agree with that statement. Personal experience dictates as such. Honestly, the character I chose when I played the game had a 7-3 matchup with MK, and was considered low tier. I didn't have nearly as much of a problem with MK as I do with Chun in 3s playing Ryu.

    This is where I think the community splits. But at the same time, if you do agree with the aforementioned statement, just play melee and SHUT THE FUCK UP about Brawl. We hate your community because people don't just shut the fuck up and play their own game. The more you come here and complain about how you hate brawl, the more you're digging a whole for yourselves. The converse is the same. If you're coming here to defend Brawl and how "It is a competative game, and you're not like them..." shut the fuck up. Just play your game, and stop justifying your existence. You're digging a hole.

    If you like Melee better... good shit. Just go play it. But don't come around here talking shit on a game you don't like, because all you end up doing is making yourself look like a twelve year old GameFAQs member, who won't stop whining about stupid shit no one cares about.


    Smash is hated here simply because of the communities response to Evo 08 and the whole items rule set. If ANYTHING, the Smash community acted idiotic and they still refuse to accept their game for what it is and won't listen to any reasons why either. Its more immature than any FPS community out there.
    There's a very, very big difference. In ST-- Akuma can't be dizzied, he has an air fireball, half his moves are invincible, and he's DELIBERATELY made impossible to beat. In fact most of the times his hit box disappears.

    In HDR, I don't really agree with the Akuma ban... but then again, other people will give you reasons for it.

    The debate over MK I thought was stupid, because he's a character who's just good at a lot of things. He's not OP, or Broken. There are ways to beat him and everybody just see's fit to complain about how OP he is and how they can't get past any of his normal shit.

    And maybe I should rephrase this last part: Every couple of months, the board has a bunch of Smash players come here and explain to us how it's not their community's fault for the perception they have been given-- and they attempt to circumvent all of the blame on Brawl. THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's unbelievably childish.

    And if you want me to stop bitching about Brawl+, then fine. I was just illustrating for you why SRK has such a problem with the whole thing. I did this so that people would stop making these stupid threads, and talk about the mechanics of this game as opposed to "LOL, U PLY BRAWLZ! ROFL! GO PLY MELEE. KTHXBYE!"

    If you think it's hypocritical. Then fine. Keep posting about it. But You still sound like twelve year old's whining whenever you do it... and a good portion of SRK just get's annoyed whenever you do. I'd love to see Brawl AND Melee at an Evo in the future(in the PROPER way), but with the way this community acts on these boards... I'm not so sure it's going to happen.

    MK makes half the roster unplayable against him alone. He is broken, but not to the level of ST Akuma.

    Brawl+ is for people who refuse to play Melee, but want to play Brawl.

    Too bad Ness's Fair rapes everyone lol.
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    Smash is hated here simply because of the communities response to Evo 08 and the whole items rule set. If ANYTHING, the Smash community acted idiotic and they still refuse to accept their game for what it is and won't listen to any reasons why either. Its more immature than any FPS community out there.



    MK makes half the roster unplayable against him alone. He is broken, but not to the level of ST Akuma.

    Brawl+ is for people who refuse to play Melee, but want to play Brawl.

    Too bad Ness's Fair rapes everyone lol.

    if we're going to generalize, brawl plus is for people that refuse to play brawl and want to play 'melee 2.0' with brawl characters. either way, it's wrong. brawl plus is a different game, just like brawl and melee. its a blend of elements from the previous 3 smash games into one awesome game.
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • Sanji HimuraSanji Himura Joined: Posts: 582
    Smash is hated here simply because of the communities response to Evo 08 and the whole items rule set. If ANYTHING, the Smash community acted idiotic and they still refuse to accept their game for what it is and won't listen to any reasons why either. Its more immature than any FPS community out there.
    Evo wouldn't listen to SBR who is the "God" of the Smash community, and they acted childish over it. Is that why they got 200+ players showed up at EVO in 08? I would like to think that this is why the Smash scene now has an items rule set, when it wouldn't even have been considered two years ago. I completely agree with you, so don't get me wrong.


    MK makes half the roster unplayable against him alone. He is broken, but not to the level of ST Akuma.
    I would like to see that evidence, if you don't mind. I have already seen the tier lists and the match up formula, so don't go bringing those up again.
    Iron Man 2 - May 7th 2010
    Thor - May 6th 2011
    The First Avenger: Captain America - July 22nd 2011
    The Avengers - May 4th 2012
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The items ruleset is still in testing and as far as I know, has not had any major tournament exposure.

    MK is OP in the sense that he had neutral or favorable matchups with every character on any legal stage. He is definitely not broken, as he can be beaten, but he is obviously a far better character than any other.


    Whatever man, there are always gonna be idiots who do stupid things. A few weeks ago we had some guy post in the melee discussion forum about how we should all quit playing a shit game and buy a 360, play Halo or something. Laughs were had and the thread was promptly locked.
  • FlugaFluga ???WHAT GOES HERE??? Joined: Posts: 357
    Evo wouldn't listen to SBR who is the "God" of the Smash community, and they acted childish over it. Is that why they got 200+ players showed up at EVO in 08? I would like to think that this is why the Smash scene now has an items rule set, when it wouldn't even have been considered two years ago. I completely agree with you, so don't get me wrong.



    I would like to see that evidence, if you don't mind. I have already seen the tier lists and the match up formula, so don't go bringing those up again.

    MK can gimp many characters and out prioritize them in the air. D-Smash kills characters like no ones buisness just by using the move at very low percents.
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    I would like to see that evidence, if you don't mind. I have already seen the tier lists and the match up formula, so don't go bringing those up again.

    MK has some of the largest, most disjointed hitboxs on the ground AND in the air. His attacks don't clash or trade with other attacks, they only pass through, which makes speed the only factor in an exchange. Since 90% of his attacks activate in single-digit frames, being out sped is no concern for him.

    The BEST edgeguarding in the game hands-down with PLENTY of attacks that set up for edgeguards. Dair sends opponents at a downward angle, effectively gimping anyone without multiple jumps. Nair has respectable knockback, as does Fair and Bair. And let's not forget the deal-sealer, Shuttle Loop.

    The best recovery in the game. Is completely unedgeguardable and if you haven't noticed, edgeguarding is a major part of smash. 5 jumps, a glide, 4 recovery moves(one of which puts him into a second glide).

    BUT HE'S REALLY LIGHT! True, but his awesome momentum cancel makes him live up to very high percents so it's almost like he's not light at all.


    Yeah, he's pretty silly.




    Damn, listing all of this makes me want to ban him almost. I really can't think of one bad characteristic he has. D:
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    as far as I know, there are no bad parts about him are a subpar air speed (which doesn't matter that much since he's invincible in the air anyways) and like... no projectile (along with most of the cast).
  • AnemoneAnemone smug ass bitch Joined: Posts: 1,979
    Damn, listing all of this makes me want to ban him almost. I really can't think of one bad characteristic he has. D:

    How about how he isn't winning the national tournaments? That's a pretty bad quality to have.

    If we look at his hitboxes that we can see now, most of the over stated ones aren't actually that big, especially down air. His weakness is in his lack of aerial manuverability, and no, he is not invincible in the air. An example, ZSS beats him in the air. Shit, JIGGLYPUFF BEATS HIM IN THE AIR (according to the Jigglypuff matchup thread). As for momentum canceling, his ability is overstated. Little known thing is that Wario is not heavy, but because of his aerial maneuverability he can change his momentum fast enough to live much, much longer than he should. Metaknight has next to no aerial maneuverability, so he's hindered by this. As Fiction revealed in one bit of research, the difference between how fast the aerial comes out doesn't matter as much as people think it does, its the difference of like 5 percent. What matters is the fastfall you initiate by starting the aerial.

    Metaknight is still probably the best character in the game, but his ability is overstated, and Snake is taking over more and more as time goes on.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    yes, people exaggerate his abilities, mostly due to johns (excuses) about losing.

    he's definitely beatable.

    But he rapes and he rapes hard. That's undeniable.
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    How about how he isn't winning the national tournaments? That's a pretty bad quality to have.

    I would honestly say that the fact that he isn't winning is due to the fact that M2k is kinda sucking right now and he and Ally are pretty much the top top of the brawl metagame right now on a level above anyone else.
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    I would honestly say that the fact that he isn't winning is due to the fact that M2k is kinda sucking right now and he and Ally are pretty much the top top of the brawl metagame right now on a level above anyone else.

    Maybe it means they are not the best (or are losing steam)

    On thing I have to mention is everyone complains in that Meta-Knight has no bad match-ups, but look at Sagat in Street Fighter 4. He has no bad match ups either, and actually has 6:4 on high tier characters (save Ryu) while Meta-Knight is still 5:5 with every top tier character save Dedede. Sagat, however, is considered very beatable though and is defiantly not in question for a ban.

    So, basically, one more reason why he is defiantly beatable.
  • Cynk22Cynk22 Speak out. Joined: Posts: 411
    LOL, Brawl.
    Torn Apart: "Buttons, technology of the future!"
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Someone said Meta goes even with all the top/high tiers which is false. Meta beats all these characters 60/40:

    Marth
    Falco
    DDD
    Waro
    Ice climbers

    He also beats Snake and Diddy but 60/40 would be an overstatement and make is sound worse for Snake and Diddy than it actually is.

    Clearly the best char in the game comparable to HD remix Akuma from what I hear.

    Not really banworthy though since removing him from the game doesn't change the tourney scene much in terms of what is or isn't viable aside from maybe making Marth much better.

    As far as his character properties? Transcendent priority means his sword never clashes or trades, only beats.

    Best pokes in the game, a frame 3 D-tilt that is a -11(?) frame trap I think on shield.

    Tornado is kinda stupidly good.

    Grounded up-b has invincibility on frames...5-8 I believe and is hard to punish + goes into glide and lagless glide attack or simply auto cancelling it.

    A frame 2 arieal for juggling and a frame 4 arieal with a huge hitbox for arieal camping and/or gimping depending on circumstances.

    Frame 6 D-smash for killing and a largley unpunishable F-smash.

    I also think his air dodge and backwards roll are among the best frame wise in the game.

    As for weaknesses, he's light and has mediocre arieal mobility(irony?).

    As for Brawl being a bad game/nintendo is evil, Brawl is pretty much a beta version of an unfinished game. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8983191&postcount=13607

    And that's all I have to say.
  • FlugaFluga ???WHAT GOES HERE??? Joined: Posts: 357
    How about how he isn't winning the national tournaments? That's a pretty bad quality to have.

    If we look at his hitboxes that we can see now, most of the over stated ones aren't actually that big, especially down air. His weakness is in his lack of aerial manuverability, and no, he is not invincible in the air. An example, ZSS beats him in the air. Shit, JIGGLYPUFF BEATS HIM IN THE AIR (according to the Jigglypuff matchup thread). As for momentum canceling, his ability is overstated. Little known thing is that Wario is not heavy, but because of his aerial maneuverability he can change his momentum fast enough to live much, much longer than he should. Metaknight has next to no aerial maneuverability, so he's hindered by this. As Fiction revealed in one bit of research, the difference between how fast the aerial comes out doesn't matter as much as people think it does, its the difference of like 5 percent. What matters is the fastfall you initiate by starting the aerial.

    Metaknight is still probably the best character in the game, but his ability is overstated, and Snake is taking over more and more as time goes on.

    Huh? Since when has Smash had a national tournament? Enlighten me.
  • AnemoneAnemone smug ass bitch Joined: Posts: 1,979
    At Laki, your information is very out of date. Very little of that remains true.
    Huh? Since when has Smash had a national tournament? Enlighten me.

    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246375
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241080
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233459
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245971
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237419

    Just to name a few in the last year and some to come. Peutro Rico, Canada, and Europe came to Genesis, so technically that is international, as will be Pound 4.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    As for Brawl being a bad game/nintendo is evil, Brawl is pretty much a beta version of an unfinished game. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8983191&postcount=13607

    Where is the evidence for that? Sounds like they think it is.
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    hmmmm apex, genesis, pound 4 is in a month. smash has had plenty of national tourneys. oh yeah, evo 09 too even though that was like a week after genesis so alot of people didn't come.
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    not to mention

    Revival of Melee 2

    Pat's House

    ActiveGamers

    and other stuff

    all had players from both coasts
  • OpeoOpeo Joined: Posts: 50
    I was really disappointed with Brawl
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    At Laki, your information is very out of date. Very little of that remains true.



    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246375
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241080
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233459
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245971
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237419

    Just to name a few in the last year and some to come. Peutro Rico, Canada, and Europe came to Genesis, so technically that is international, as will be Pound 4.

    I would like for you to explain to me what parts of my info are untrue. The frame data OBVIOUSLY hasn't changed and is highly relevant.

    The matchups are all about right though you could argue that some are maybe 55/45 as opposed to 60/40. Meta DEFINITELY counters marth/ddd/wario/icies and the only way Falco isn't a soft counter is when tournies have anti ledgecamping/planking rules.

    Not trying to come off as an ass or anything but it would be nice for you to explain WHY you think something is wrong when I was stating either fact(frame stuff) or matchups that are for the most part agreed on as true. If you bring up char boards, most of there matchups are pretty wrong/biased aside from Marth boards.

    Also @ smashchu: I'm pretty sure this was all looked at by the hackers in the community who have looked through the games coding and I believe that there is an article somewhere saying that brawl was released to early though I can't really look right now >_>
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    Brawlplus.net

    Hackers are doing AMAZING things with Brawl.

    Check em out ESPECIALLY Brawl+, it's all the extras of Brawl with balance and skill!!
  • AnemoneAnemone smug ass bitch Joined: Posts: 1,979
    marth/ddd/wario/icies

    Marth-yes
    DDD- No
    Wario-Lamo, what?
    Icies- hahahahahahahahahahah, no.
    The matchups are all about right though you could argue that some are maybe 55/45 as opposed to 60/40.

    No, most of them should be listed as 50-50. As in, Falco, Snake, Icies.
    or matchups that are for the most part agreed on as true.

    Maybe it was agreed as true like, 5 months ago. Its really outdated stuff. Somethings are just flat out wrong too. like this:
    As far as his character properties? Transcendent priority means his sword never clashes or trades, only beats.

    It LITERALLY always trades. That's what transcendent priority means. I could go line by line. Let me assure you, many things you posted are either wrong or outdated. If they miss a shuddle loop, they ARE going to get punished, unless the player sucks. Shit, that move is basically useless against D3. DDD rapes shuddle loop. Inhale > invincibility
    wrong/biased aside from Marth boards.
    No, that's not true at all. I'm REALLY not sure where you got that idea. Only the pros opinion on the D3 matchups matter. Nothing else. Only their experience. Some are out of date because the guy who runs them is reluctant to change, like Olimar should be 55-45 DDD and Wario should be 65-35 DDD as well, based off Seibrik and C018's experiences.

    Also, Brawl+ is incredibly easy.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    DDD- No

    Atmosk/Seibrik have both in the past called it 50/50. Both players would regularly lose to top metas in there areas and now play meta themselves predominantly. Coincidence?
    Wario-Lamo, what?
    Fiction was anti-ban and called the matchup even or wario advantage till he played m2ks meta. Related or not, he said the matchup was a disadvantage, ended up switching to pro-ban side and then quit brawl for melee. Other warios who actively post on smashboards say meta is warios worst matchup @ 60/40
    I also remember DSF trying to use wario to counter meta and it not working.
    Icies- hahahahahahahahahahah, no.

    Meep a top ice climber player quit brawl recently after discovering that is indeed legal for meta to get a percent lead and glide back and forth under stages to time his ass out. He went on to say that if icies don't win the first game, they can't win the set because they can't win when counterpicked stagewise correctly. Sure iceclimbers destroy aggressive metaknights, but thats meta playing the matchup wrongly and is irrelevant to discussion. When metas play the right way and camp, it's definitely in metas favor. If i wasn't lazy, I'd link vids of meta getting owned by lain and then learning how to camp and 2 stocking him >_>




    No, most of them should be listed as 50-50. As in, Falco, Snake, Icies.

    Falco is 55/45 meta IF ledgecamping isn't allowed. Falco can't really deal with ledge campers. Though falco himself can camp very well and it's not unreasonable to think that he could keep a lead so it might be 60/40 at worst with planking.
    Maybe it was agreed as true like, 5 months ago. Its really outdated stuff. Somethings are just flat out wrong too. like this:


    It LITERALLY always trades. That's what transcendent priority means. I could go line by line. Let me assure you, many things you posted are either wrong or outdated. If they miss a shuddle loop, they ARE going to get punished, unless the player sucks. Shit, that move is basically useless against D3. DDD rapes shuddle loop. Inhale > invincibility

    Shuttle loop isn't an approach. It's a punish, an approach stuffer, and a gimping tool. It's also arguably the best attack in the game. The move is useless to approach ddd maybe, but it's fairly good when ddd's recovering and meta has whorenado to harass DDD with anyways >_>
    No, that's not true at all. I'm REALLY not sure where you got that idea. Only the pros opinion on the D3 matchups matter. Nothing else. Only their experience. Some are out of date because the guy who runs them is reluctant to change, like Olimar should be 55-45 DDD and Wario should be 65-35 DDD as well, based off Seibrik and C018's experiences.

    Only the pro opinions matter? No point in thinking for yourself when there are pro players who change there mind/suck at judging matchups based on them simply being better at playing but awful at objectivly analyzing? You just eat up what other people say without questioning amirite? So long as there "pro" of course. Also, lmao at 65/35 ddd over wario. Thats one of the closer matchups in the game and is highly stage dependent. Also you talk about 5 months ago, seibrik said all that stuff 3 months ago so meh.
  • AnemoneAnemone smug ass bitch Joined: Posts: 1,979
    WOW. I'm sorry, but you really have NO IDEA what you are talking about. NO IDEA AT ALL. WOW. Completely no idea. Holy shit, you really are a dumb fuck.

    I laughed so hard when you said the Fiction went pro-ban after losing to Mew2King. NO. He went pro-ban because of another Metaknight player abusing Metaknight, HOWEVER, this player has yet to won a national tournament.

    And Meep has NOT quit, and NO, that's NOT legal. That's stalling. Its putting yourself in an unharmable position. Its no more legal than Sonic abusing his homing attack under a stage, WHICH IS LISTED IN THE RECOMMENDED RULE SET UNDER AN EXAMPLE OF STALLING. As for Meep losing, MEEP WASN'T PLAYING THE MATCHUP RIGHT. He wasn't abusing desynched blizzards which is the entire way the matchup is suppose to be even. Every Ice Climbers and Metaknight worth shit will tell you.

    My favorite is your statement about D3s, because they are hillariously untrue. Like, so untrue that the shit just seems stupid. I'm sorry, but you really don't know shit about D3 versus Metaknight, not at all. C018 does NOT frequently lose to Metaknight's in his region, he goes about even with Seibrik, who got 9th at Apex. Saying that they lose to players doesn't really mean much, because our Sagats lose on occasion then Sagat isn't as bad as people say? No, the player is just better.


    IF YOU HAVE THE LEAD

    the mk can only do one of 3 or 4 things.

    1. Run==>shield grab, hoping to block ur ftilt.

    SOLUTION:
    Instead of ftilt, read his approach, and simply stay on ur side, then when u think he's gona running shield, u do a dash grab (no shield) and meet him half way. That way your grabbing his approaching shield.

    2. Jump in space dairs/fairs

    SOLUTION:
    for spacy mk's mixup between dash shielding==>grab (if they do recieding fairs), sh bairs or utilts out of shield for spacy dairs, be very patient with this...

    like shield 2, even 3 dairs before making a move, if they're too high, try to time a full hop uair or fair after abotu the third or 4th dair, if they land before then, grab/dsmash the landing depending on spacing, only other option is nado which if ur shield is low either roll away or try to utilt it. if ur shield is fine (they did nado before doing 3-4 dairs on ur shield) then just hold shield, try to predict if he's gona stay inside u, OR retreat. if he retreats u can actually time a roll in that direction to move with him, and finish ur roll where he lands, this seems to be the only consistant way to punish retreating nado, if they stayed in ur shield at all, and it avoids the mindgame of -retreat, just kidding hit u while u run-

    3. Walk slowly up and space tilts

    SOLUTION:

    DSMASH-sounds weird but it destroys mk's grounded spacing game once he's passed ur ftilt range. just hold shield accordingly, when he fuks up, give him a swing.
    itss sooooo good and soooo big. and hurts, and puts them above u. i <3 dsmash..

    4. Dash, jump, nado.

    SOLUTION-This one you gota watch out for, as it can shut out like ur other two solutions if u pick wrong. (IE he has a rock that beats ur scissor and lizard, BUT you have this paper) this one will seem the most blatent if u pay attention enough, and aggressive, they will run full speed and jump AT you, not near you. thats ur que to either throw out utilt, try to grab it, OR the safest thing, shield.
    the issue is when they read ur shield, and instead of jump nadoing, they just dash grab ur shield, so watch out for that.

    instead of linking specific vids, since i do all these strats often,
    i'll link u here instead.

    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241986

    watch the latest vids vs mk to see these strats in action.

    As for upb, its still punishable. AND NO ITS NOT GOOD AGAINST RECOVERING D3, DO THAT TO US AND YOU'LL GET INHALED TO INHALE RELEASE TO UPTILT OR DDDCIDE.

    And TORNADO HASN'T BEEN A PROBLEM FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS NOW. DDD can handle tornado INCREDIBLY well. Tornado is NOT a huge problem.


    As for the Falco, PLANKING IS STALLING WHICH IS BANNED. I don't think you understand anything at all.
    Also you talk about 5 months ago, seibrik said all that stuff 3 months ago so meh.

    No, he HAS been saying that for about a year, (oddly enough, when Mew2King played DDD against Wario, he did the same thing except no one noticed until recently. Wario can't handle bair spam. Afro used Wario as his D3 counter, being a Snake player, and once Seibrik figured out the bair reaction strategy to shut down Wario's options, its basically over. Wario can't really kill D3 easily, D3 sure as hell can.

    The other top D3s recently picked up this same tactic in the last month, and have reassured its effectiveness.

    Sorry, but just no.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    Also @ smashchu: I'm pretty sure this was all looked at by the hackers in the community who have looked through the games coding and I believe that there is an article somewhere saying that brawl was released to early though I can't really look right now >_>

    The problem was I found no evidence about how the game is not finished. Not on what the post said or anything I saw in the thread is an actual reason the game is unfinished because all games have those problems.

    Lots of games are unbalanced. A lot of good competitive games are not balanced as developers can not spot everything and people find game changing discoveries. Constant patching is the only way to keep a game perfectly balanced, but the cost will overcome the benefit. Also, in Smash's case, the game is designed with moire of a focus on 4vs, but other things like items, stages and final smashes, all the effect the balance, are removed or minimized, creating a void where a character like Meta-Knight, one who works well under the new conditions (where they were not the norm in the development process) can take control. Of course, he is by far not a problem. Lots of games have a character who has no bad match-ups. (I post this on Smashboards, but people just think I'm a scrub because I mentioned the words "item" without insulting it).

    Also, glitches are also in every game. Humans are not perfect, and will make mistakes and miss stuff. That fact does not make Brawl a beta game. Most of the glitches were only found in the Stage Builder. Example: If you have a block with a passable platform at it's bottom, you can jump though the block if you jump in a gap between the block and the platform. This can be created in Stage Builder very easily. Between the 41 stages in the game, only Rumble Falls has this glitch (it's in the bottle neck right before the midway point). I will say that Brawl doesn't feel as tight as Melee in terms of these bugs and what not, but I blame Game Arts not being as skilled as HAL labs. Either way, it doesn't hinder gameplay.

    As for the character specific things, most of them have no proof. Also, on Meta-Knight, he's a catch 22. He isn't great in 4vs because he's weak overall and his beat killing method, to chase characters off the edge, isn't as useful in a 4vs when someone else can take advantage of this and out compete you in KOing power (one reason Ike is so good in 4vs). If he was nerfed, he could become a garbage character in the 4vs realm and be good for nothing. But, he's really good at 1v1. If nerfed, they'd have to be really specific on what they do.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    >_____________________>

    Post got deleted and I don't really value winning this debate so I'm just gonna say that if you look at vids of top D3s versus top metas, you see seibrik getting 3 stocked by halzy and atmosk losing to allys meta *ally...meta, suprising*

    Also, planking isn't considered stalling and isn't banned by the SBR. Technically since m2ks in the smash backroom, if you do think plankings banned, you'd have to call m2k a dirty cheat. Hmm...I actully remember Dr. Mario Guy, a B-roomer and top wario player who advocates "gayness"/planking/camping etc. saying that the community should hold a national level tourney and encourage planking so that data can be gathered to see if it really is game-breaking and should be banned since there is no definite conclusion and thus is currently not banned in the SBR ruleset.

    For fiction, my bad though aside from the m2k being the meta, everything else was right. Also winning a national is something that only m2k, ally, and ADHD have done and since the tourney that adhd won was snes I believe, many folks don't consider it a nationl (though since as I said I'm not trying to win an argument, I will admit that the comp at that was very high and it doesn't matter that it wasn't technically a national)

    As for meep, I was going off of a post I remembered him making saying that he was quiting due to a combination of school, being too old for smash(?), and gayness of brawl.

    Lastly since you implied you are a top D3 player, i would be curious as too your smash name and if you had any good vids of yourself playing.
  • AnemoneAnemone smug ass bitch Joined: Posts: 1,979
    Seibrik doesn't main D3 anymore. Next you'll talk about how because Mew2King lost to Ally while using DDD that DDD must not beat Snake. Look at what Co18 does to Seibrik A METAKNIGHT OF EQUAL SKILL LEVEL. They go even. Nice try but no. WHY DO YOU THINK ALLY WON?!?! BECAUSE HE'S ALLY! Atomsk is IN NO WAY at the same skill level as Ally. Just because Diago beats Sagat's DOES NOT MEAN THAT SAGAT DOES NOT HAVE THE ADVANTAGE IN THAT MATCHUP. Just because wong beats our Sagats DOES NOT MEAN SAGAT DOES NOT HAVE THE ADVATAGE IN THAT MATCHUP.

    Mew2King DOES NOT PLANK. Mew2King plays a VERY offensive metaknight. HE DOES NOT PLANK. AND SECONDLY, YES, EXECESIVE PLANKING IS CONSIDERED STALLING SINCE YOU CAN'T BE HIT OUT OF IT, WHICH IS THE DEFINITION OF STALLING. There is a difference between occasionally planking as you attempt to get back on the field and just plan planking to put yourself in a situation to where you can't ever be hit. Planking used as a tactic to overcome a matchup would require it being done the entire match. The majority of tournaments would consider this stalling.

    I never applied that I was a top D3, only that you didn't know what you were talking about. Keep johning about Metaknight.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Seibrik doesn't main D3 anymore.

    Wait, first you were dick riding Seibrik as a top D3 and only his opinion matters, now your saying his loss doesn't count cause he's not a D3 main anymore? Awkward.
    WHY DO YOU THINK ALLY WON?!?! BECAUSE HE'S ALLY! Atomsk is IN NO WAY at the same skill level as Ally.

    Now we take Ally who's obviously top 3 but we forget the fact that this is the first time *or at least the first recorded time* that we've seen Allys meta against high level opponents and we're gonna say Atmosk losing doesn't count cause he's not good enough? Even though Atmosk is a top D3 and in a state infested with meta mains so you would think his greater matchup knowledge would give him the edge if this were indeed a 50/50


    Mew2King DOES NOT PLANK. Mew2King plays a VERY offensive metaknight. HE DOES NOT PLANK. AND SECONDLY, YES, EXECESIVE PLANKING IS CONSIDERED STALLING SINCE YOU CAN'T BE HIT OUT OF IT, WHICH IS THE DEFINITION OF STALLING. There is a difference between occasionally planking as you attempt to get back on the field and just plan planking to put yourself in a situation to where you can't ever be hit. Planking used as a tactic to overcome a matchup would require it being done the entire match. The majority of tournaments would consider this stalling.



    Yes m2k is offensive, but he will camp if/when it's necessary and did plank/circle camp meeps icies causing meep to at least consider quitting brawl. That Was just gliding but caused whining. I also believe there was a match that didn't get put online that was more hardcore planking. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8721796&postcount=506 Also theres a difference between tournaments considering planking stalling and it being in the official SBR ruleset which again it isn't. The reason being like you said, occasional planking OK but extend planking not? Makes for an ambiguous and hard to enforce rule. I suppose you could compare it to meta IDC banned tech. You either completely ban it or you let it be legal, in the case of metas tech it was outright banned since it is 100% uncounterable. Where as say Neo [url]http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8731484&postcount=620 would consider what m2k doing as only broken vs some chars in which case you just cp and get on with your life. And SBR decided that tournies could ban planking at there own discretion but wouldn't put it on the official rules. Hence I said falco is 55/45 disadvantage non-planking and raped with planking since even though many tournies *doubt majority* do consider it stalling, it's not on official rules and not only tournies find it illegal.


    [/url]
    I never applied that I was a top D3, only that you didn't know what you were talking about. Keep johning about Metaknight.

    I swore that you said " Me and the other top D3s" as opposed to the other top D3s and i think you edited your post since I trust my memory but I could be wrong and it doesn't matter really since you apparently are reluctant to give your name/don't have anything noteworthy to show. That sounds more offensive than I mean it too and shouldn't be taken as an insult btw. Also, I'm a meta fan, me saying that he's better than you think and/or has better matchups than displayed I would hardly call johning. Lastly, is English your second language or is it just random bad grammer due to apathy. Occasionally you type things that look...funny.

    Final word on planking: DMG a B-Broomer considered a top Wario and an advocater of gayness/camping/timing out/planking etc. proposed that there be a national tourney held were planking was encouraged by all entrants so that data could be gathered and if it could be determined whether or not planking really is a game-breaking tactic or just something that people should just deal with.
  • AnemoneAnemone smug ass bitch Joined: Posts: 1,979
    Wait, first you were dick riding Seibrik as a top D3 and only his opinion matters, now your saying his loss doesn't count cause he's not a D3 main anymore? Awkward.

    Its one thing to understand a charecter and another to actually pull it off in match, which requires some frequent practice with that character. Mew2King CPed DDD randomly against Mew2King and lost for the same reason. Believe me, if anyone knows anything about matchups, its going to be Mew2King. Mew2King is a ball of genious, he always knows what the right thing to do is.
    Now we take Ally who's obviously number 1

    fixed for you. He only loses to a few Cali players and DDD mains because DDD versus snake is gay and because Cali plays so differently than us and he hasn't learned how to deal with them yet. ADHD has won once and until I see him in winners finals I won't considered him in running for top player.
    Even though Atmosk is a top D3 and in a state infested with meta mains so you would think his greater matchup knowledge would give him the edge if this were indeed a 50/50

    Atomsk admits to not playing the Metaknight matchup right because he is too impatient and must 'always be doing something.'
    http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9101448&postcount=5939
    Ally ALSO beat other players, METAKNIGHTS even, and STILL won, certinally you won't say that that matchup isn't 50-50.

    A match is over in 3 minutes and you are complaining about stalling? Get out of here with that!
    Lastly, is English your second language or is it just random bad grammer due to apathy. Occasionally you type things that look...funny.

    That's more my lack of ability to correctly read off a computer screen and type correctly. I sometimes type words that sound like what I mean, but it isn't what I mean, and for no reason at all, and then I can't proofread anything off of a computer screen either as I said before. I'd have to print out my post and proffread it, and the winter cold doesn't make my typing any better either.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Its one thing to understand a charecter and another to actually pull it off in match, which requires some frequent practice with that character. Mew2King CPed DDD randomly against Mew2King and lost for the same reason. Believe me, if anyone knows anything about matchups, its going to be Mew2King. Mew2King is a ball of genious, he always knows what the right thing to do is.


    Still, Brik was top 3 in the country among D3 players. I doubt he suddenly has forgotten how to play the matchup and either D3 isn't even with meta *so true* or Halzy is way better than brick which...isn't completly implausible.
    fixed for you. He only loses to a few Cali players and DDD mains because DDD versus snake is gay and because Cali plays so differently than us and he hasn't learned how to deal with them yet. ADHD has won once and until I see him in winners finals I won't considered him in running for top player.

    M2k beat ally the last time they played. Those two are on about equal footing. I actually think m2k raped ally at C3 >_> Also Ally said he can't really fight marth well in general atm if you are refering to haze.



    Atomsk admits to not playing the Metaknight matchup right because he is too impatient and must 'always be doing something.'
    http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9101448&postcount=5939
    Ally ALSO beat other players, METAKNIGHTS even, and STILL won, certinally you won't say that that matchup isn't 50-50.

    What metas did ally fight and beat besides atmosk and Shadow? Shadow played ally fairly close and Atmosk is like...second on the PR in arguably the toughest region in the country though it seems Atmosk played the match wrong so that's not really relavent.

    A match is over in 3 minutes and you are complaining about stalling? Get out of here with that!

    The point was the techniqe and as I said, there was a match were m2k did the same thing only he decided to fully time out meep that wasn't put online. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9104395&postcount=14722
    http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8732551&postcount=665

    second post wasn't what I was looking for but if you check in that thread, you'll hear all kinds of arguing back and forth over what is and isn't stalling and/or bannable. Neo thought it was fair play fyi.
    That's more my lack of ability to correctly read off a computer screen and type correctly. I sometimes type words that sound like what I mean, but it isn't what I mean, and for no reason at all, and then I can't proofread anything off of a computer screen either as I said before. I'd have to print out my post and proffread it, and the winter cold doesn't make my typing any better either.

    And now I know.

    Anyways on meta, I'm not really for the ban and really enjoy meta as a player though honestly I don't think banning meta would be unreasonable though given the "mood" of the community it doesn't seem like it will happen anytime within the year. Having said that the year is 7 days left and if ally goes all meta from now on and nobody can beat either him or m2k, you may see ban discussion come up again.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    MK will never be banned.

    The BBR is intelligent and mature enough to know that it's unreasonable to ban MK simply because he's "too good."
  • *P*L*U*R**P*L*U*R* Joined: Posts: 43
    then maybe you guys should stop bashing the backroom...?
    Super Smash Brothers- Apathy
    Blazblue- Litchi
    Street Fighter 4- Sakura
    Guilty Gear- Bridget
    Touhou- Marisa
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    loll
    8tROOXi.png
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    Yes m2k is offensive, but he will camp if/when it's necessary and did plank/circle camp meeps icies causing meep to at least consider quitting brawl. That Was just gliding but caused whining. I also believe there was a match that didn't get put online that was more hardcore planking. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8721796&postcount=506 Also theres a difference between tournaments considering planking stalling and it being in the official SBR ruleset which again it isn't. The reason being like you said, occasional planking OK but extend planking not? Makes for an ambiguous and hard to enforce rule. I suppose you could compare it to meta IDC banned tech. You either completely ban it or you let it be legal, in the case of metas tech it was outright banned since it is 100% uncounterable. Where as say Neo [url]http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8731484&postcount=620 would consider what m2k doing as only broken vs some chars in which case you just cp and get on with your life. And SBR decided that tournies could ban planking at there own discretion but wouldn't put it on the official rules. Hence I said falco is 55/45 disadvantage non-planking and raped with planking since even though many tournies *doubt majority* do consider it stalling, it's not on official rules and not only tournies find it illegal. [/url]

    Two things:Who cares if it's not on the SBR's official rule set. Tournament organizers are allowed to do what ever rules they want.
    Secondly, planking isn't hard to point out. They go to the ledge, and they just sit there. The only time it might get iffy is if someone is recovering, but even then you can tell if they are when they refuse to move from it. It's not hard to enforce, just say "Hey you, get off the edge and fight." If they want to make a big deal about it, a ref says "OK, you lost the tournament. GG."
Sign In or Register to comment.