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The "Official" SSBM Thread.

SynikaLSynikaL Melee ProphetJoined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
First off, I want to make one thing clear about the indoctrine of this thread:

This is not a thread about discussing why or why not you may feel Smash is/isn't a legitimate fighting game. This is a gameplay discussion thread.

If you have any thoughts on the afformentioned issue, post them here: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73551&page=1&pp=15

....and we'll deal with it in that thread.


With that said, the last thread showed that there is indeed some interest to be found in this game at SRK, so I'd like to see how a thread like this would fare around these parts.

I'll try my best to answer any and all gameplay related questions, and if I can't answer them, I'll attempt to point you in the proper direction to find them.

Viva' La' Smash.

-CynicaL
"Grandad, this food is destructive!"
"Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
"Then the culture's destructive."

-The Boondocks
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Comments

  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    God bless you for making this thread.

    -The Demon
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Here's hoping it sticks around for a while

    :cheers:

    -Syn
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • JaldaboathJaldaboath SHOULDERCANNONSON Joined: Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ok, Noob here to Ask Qs; I'm tired of getting pummeled by my 10yo cousin:

    1. What's the control Layout supposed to acomplish?
    (As in how's it designed) I've a hard time getting used to it...

    2. Which are the non-so-basic movs?
    (Like parry, RC, triangle jump, Guard Impact in other games)

    3. Are there any established tiers?
    (I've heard pikachu is really high, is it true?)

    Hope this isn't too basic.
    "One day, in a far off place, a small tribe witnessed a big animal, doing something different: walking on its hind legs. The scared tribe swore it was the devil, walking on land. That devil became the creature called Jaldaboath" - b1gazn
    2006 Most Fucked Up Battle Poll Champion: Vile

    If you're looking for a USFIV updated mod, check out the "Mega Pack vol.2." And my dA page.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Jaldaboath wrote:
    Ok, Noob here to Ask Qs; I'm tired of getting pummeled by my 10yo cousin:

    1. What's the control Layout supposed to acomplish?
    (As in how's it designed) I've a hard time getting used to it...

    The control layout is designed so that moves can come out eassily since the game isnt about how complicated the moves are, but how you use them. Also you should try and master jumping with the X and Y buttons rather then by pressing up on the stick, it allows you to get the most out of your jumps.
    [2. Which are the non-so-basic movs?
    (Like parry, RC, triangle jump, Guard Impact in other games)

    Some of the advanced moves include Small Jumping, Wave dancing, Wave Dashing, Reflecting, R cancelling, Wall Clinging, Air Item Grabbing, turtle grapling ect. as well as some character specific tricks such as Fox's infinite and the Bowser Train.
    3. Are there any established tiers?
    (I've heard pikachu is really high, is it true?)

    Hope this isn't too basic.


    Top Tier:

    Zelda/Shiek
    Ganondorf
    Falco
    Marth

    Mid Tier:

    Captain Falcon
    Mario
    Dr. Mario
    Fox
    Link
    Samus
    Young Link
    Peach
    Bowser
    Mewtwo

    And then there is everybody else.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I've played this game for almost a year now, still a scrub since I haven't got anyone seriously interested to train against.

    Jaldaboath's questions:

    1. In my opinion, it's perfectly designed for the GC controller, which is designed to make learning games simple. You have two jumps buttons depending on your preference, you can jump with the stick if that's your thing, you have two parry buttons also identical, you have the Z-button for the lightest shield or for grabbing, the sizes of the attack button reflect their importance (IMO), the C-stick can be used for instant smashes. I think the main point of the design is accessability for everyone though.

    2. I'll let someone else explain these for you, since I'm not very good at it. The names: shield canceling (usually called L-canceling), short hopping, fast falling, directional influence, shieldgrabbing, wavedashing (making a short hop and air-dodgning diagonally into the ground) and SHFFLing (also called shuffling, it's short hop fast fall shield canceling, basically you do air moves will barely moving from the ground) are the most important techniques. Here's a compendium: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42749

    3. This is the latest tier list I think: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34838

    Edit: beaten. :(
  • white shadowwhite shadow WHAT'S MY NAME NYUKAH?!!! Joined: Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The Demon the tiers have changed since you last time you checked:

    Top Tier:
    -Sheik
    -Marth

    2nd Tier:
    -Samus
    -Falco
    -Capt. Falcon
    -Fox
    -Princess Peach
    -Dr.Mario
    -Luigi
    -Roy
    -Jigglypuff

    3rd Tier:
    -Gannondorf
    -Ness
    -Mewtwo
    -Mario
    -Link
    -Zelda
    -Donkey Kong
    -Ice Climbers
    -Kirby:sad:
    -Pikachu

    Dirt:
    -Mr.Game&Watch
    -Pichu
    -Bowser
    It could be Esther Baxter vs. Pat Morita in drag and half of this board would be like "black chicks don't really turn me on sooo..." - Randomnigga

    " Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?!!!"- Wayne Brady from Chappelle's Show. LOL!!!
  • eddymastaeddymasta The Man Without Fear Joined: Posts: 702
    Only thing I can say is: Master the L recover first. This will evolve your game past scrub tactics on so many levels, its amazing. After that master short hop, then learn how to shffl (short hop fast fall l recover) all of your air moves.

    Look at Smashboards.com for character strats and techs
    GGPO: Angrylobster
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    actually, the "latest" tier list from samshboards is as follows. Note that this list is actually 6 months old, and the smash community has had several major tournaments (TG6, MELEE-FC, and more) that have at least somewhat changed many players' views about several characters (let's just say ice climbers are likely to rise next time we re-do things). Here's the "current" list.

    Top
    Shiek
    Fox
    Marth

    Upper
    Falco
    Peach
    Captain Falcon
    Samus
    Jigglypuff

    High
    Gannondorf
    Mario
    Dr. Mario
    Luigi

    Mid
    Link
    Pikachu
    Ice Climbers
    Roy
    Zelda
    Young Link
    Yoshi

    Lower
    Ness
    Donkey Kong
    Kirby
    Geedubya
    Mewtwo

    Bottom
    Bowser
    Pichu

    As for the other questions

    The layout is designed to be simple. A for basic attacks, B for specials, L/R for block and such. If you're having any trouble with the basics smash actually has a pretty good tutorial video that you can view on the game itself. However, one basic thing might help you more than anything else - don't think of it directly as a fighter, think of it (initially at least) as a platform game, like mario 3 or some such. It makes the controls easier to adjust to initially (which was why I picked up the first smash brothers so fast).

    For a lot of the more specialized names and such, I reccomend that you check the compendium of knowledge topic thing here - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42749
    Also, for a pretty good explanation of some of the details with this, you can look up the video opera article about smash brothers at http://www.video-opera.com/features/f0011.php If you have any questions about any particular tactic I can give you details, but to go into everything would be a waste of my time and your time with the two links avaiable.

    I'm definitely willing to help answer anyone's questions.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    how do you do fox's infinite, i've never been able to figure out what it was.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Eh, I'm no Fox expert, so I'm not gonna try and explain it to you. He has about 5-6 different types of infinites, all rediculously hard to do. Here's a thread at our forums discussing it:

    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37321

    My advice is to not get too caught up in trying to learn them now. They're rediculously hard to do and actually apply in pressure situations (i.e. when actually playing a human). Fox is already the most technically demanding character in the game without the infinites. They're worth practicing, but to be honest, not even the best Fox players can do them consistantly in a macth, so I'd suggest waiting a good while until you're comfortable with the more fundamental aspects of Fox (i.e. his more difficult than average shorthop).

    x1372:

    Can you, or anyone else explain to me how to make links to videos off my hard drive? I think it'd be cool have a few links to some videos in this thread; like a vid of Fox's infinite for Sid for example, and not to mention some cool match vids, that show off what Smash is actually like at high levels ("Ken Defeated" instantly comes to mind).



    _Syn
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ONE time, I will say this.

    Submit the best 3 Smash high-level match videos you have to CV.com, and I will endorse them. One time. If people genuinely like them, then after that it's up to Blaze.

    N - Ugg, I can taste the bile.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Thongboy, I'd be so there if I knew how to put up the vids. Could you point me in the direction, I could find an explaination on how to do it?

    I'll also make a thread at Smashboards to get the communitiy's ideas on what they feel the top three matches to represent high level play would be, Give me a little time.

    I think that it's awesome that you'd consider doing that. Thanks alot.


    -Syn
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    fox infinite:

    2B -> [3]X,R (repeat, X,R is almost as fast as roll cancelling)

    I believe if you get sicknasty enough at it you can go across a whole level and then 8+A launch them for the kill.

    fox and marth have one of the best up close moves in the whole game with 2B (shine, reflect, etc). it comes out really fast, hits in every direction, is jump cancellable. you can crazy shit like jump, 2B, jump, 2B, 8B and it combos.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    SynikaL wrote:
    Thongboy, I'd be so there if I knew how to put up the vids. Could you point me in the direction, I could find an explaination on how to do it?

    I'll also make a thread at Smashboards to get the communitiy's ideas on what they feel the top three matches to represent high level play would be, Give me a little time.

    I think that it's awesome that you'd consider doing that. Thanks alot.


    -Syn
    Haha, I hate SSBM, but then again, I'm biased etcetera. I don't have to like everything, the site's not just for me.

    If you AIM combovideos, you can send them directly to him and he will upload them himself. Otherwise, you can PM me and I'll do it.

    N
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    A word of warning for the Fox-player: Since you're a fast faller, you should learn how to DI (directional influence) properly. A Peach-player can chainthrow you upwards from 0-70% if you don't DI out of the way.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I don't know if it ranks anywhere near the top three videos, but Captain Jack's Ganondorf ditto match on Final Destination is pretty entertaining.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I do tend to disagree with part of that list, I would definately put Ganondorf higher just based on my experience playing lots of people, but then again what do I know? He is just beastly and Im not entirely sure how anyone could put him in the third tier, at least to me he's clearly tops.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The Demon wrote:
    I do tend to disagree with part of that list, I would definately put Ganondorf higher just based on my experience playing lots of people, but then again what do I know? He is just beastly and Im not entirely sure how anyone could put him in the third tier, at least to me he's clearly tops.

    Ganondorf is definitely an excellent character (and for the record, I put him a bit higher in my vote about the tier list last time) but he's just not QUITE good enough to be a tier above where he is. He's got a ton of good things about him, but it's just not GREAT like some of the characters above him.

    Sheik is the game's best at combos. Marth has his awesome range and tipper power. Fox has extremely good combos, and the best rush-in in the game if you can get the timing perfect. Falco has his short hop blaster and his killer spike. Peach is the priority queen. Captain Falcon's speed and short hop knee are an extremely lethal combination. Samus' recovery, projectiles, and misdirection make her extremely difficult to play against. Jigglypuff's wall of pain is almost impossible to get around when done properly.

    Ganondorf has a lot going for him, but it's just not QUITE enough to get him up into the next tier. He has power and quickness, but most characters can keep just out of his range when played well. Also, when he's off the cliff, he's dead. At least captain falcon's jumping is a bit quicker to sometimes help him recover before his opponent can set up an edge guard, but ganondorf gives his opponent all the time in the world to set up an edge guard. There's only one really notable ganondorf player who has done well at several tournaments, and that's Eddie from Chicago. However, even eddie hasn't done too well at some of the latest tournaments, at least in part because so many players can take advantage of dorf's weaknesses.

    oh, and as for the match videos thing, we're working on determining which ones to give ya TB.
  • Ho0v-ManHo0v-Man Something clever Joined: Posts: 500
    n00b question: What is chain throwing? Is it like when you juggle a character off a throw and then go from the juggle to another throw?

    Also, can anyone give me a wave-dash tutorial?

    Oh and since no one's mentioned it, I will. CC(crouch cancelling) is really important. And Samus's is GODLY.
    I don't have enough space for a really cool signature I found about vampire sex and whatnot. Screw you SRK...screw you.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Ho0v-Man wrote:
    n00b question: What is chain throwing? Is it like when you juggle a character off a throw and then go from the juggle to another throw?

    Also, can anyone give me a wave-dash tutorial?

    Oh and since no one's mentioned it, I will. CC(crouch cancelling) is really important. And Samus's is GODLY.

    chain throwing is simply using a certain throw in a certain character matchup to be able to grab your opponent before he can recover. Depending on the character matchup, how long you can chain throw (and if, and what throw you use) changes.

    For example, marth can chain throw peach (unless she wants to DI into a tipper fsmash) from 0 to 30% damage. Sheik can chain throw... a whole lot of characters (pikachu and yoshi especially) with her down throw... in fact, she can chain pika and yoshi from 0 to around 70 if done correctly. peach's upthrow can chain fastfallers (fox, falco, captain falcon) from somewhere in the 30% range to the 70% range (note that this will not work outside of this specific damage range) with her up throw.

    not that chain throwing is easy mind you, it requires extreme timing. even if you managed to master chain throwing, you don't do the EXACT same thing every time. See, while you hold them, your opponent is mashing the buttons and holding the control stick in directions to try to escape the grab itself. more importantly, the direction that they hold while you acually throw them will influence where they fly/bounce. In most cases, they can influence themselves to get behind you and make you turn around, or move different distances away from you to screw up the chain throw. also, you may have to quickly run and jump cancel grabs to continue the chain after the throw (start running in the direction they move, then hit the jump button and immediately after the grab button so you grab before you actually leave the ground - the net result is a slightly moving standing grab animation instead of the slower running grab animation). Also, chain throwing really requires you to be pretty much perfect in its execution to work - a slight mistake and they can either escape or hit you before you can grab them again. It also usually does only about 6-8 damage per throw, so you've gotta chain them quite a few times for this to do significant damage.


    ----


    wavedashing is pretty hard to actually explain well without an example, but here goes. you start by hitting the jump button. however, before you actually leave the ground, you hold diagonally toward the ground and a direction (preferably very close to the horizontal, but enough that the controller registers that you're partially holding down) and air dodge. Done correctly, you'll slide across the ground doing the air dodge's landing animation, which for most characters is faster than their actual dash. you can use this to move around quickly in either direction, without turning around, to set up attacks or get out of the way of things.
  • Ho0v-ManHo0v-Man Something clever Joined: Posts: 500
    ^^Thanks.
    I don't have enough space for a really cool signature I found about vampire sex and whatnot. Screw you SRK...screw you.
  • SkyeElementalSkyeElemental He knows dat spacing Joined: Posts: 253
    http://ssbm.captainjack.jp/maji.html

    Some good match videos here. Captain Jack's Doc is a beast.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Sky:

    Good find!

    I never knew about those.

    Are those from TG6?


    -Syn
    *edit*
    (yep, they are. Matt Deezie's gonna have a fit when he finds out those are up on the net[if he hasn't already])
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Deezie posted that the TG 6 DVD is going to be a while. He doesn't want to make people wait till the DVD is done before they can see the vids, so he's allowed people to put up any vids they might have made with a cam. There's quite a few floating about.
  • CyntalanCyntalan The Metamoderator™ = The Boogeyman Joined: Posts: 8,521 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    MrSilver wrote:
    Deezie posted that the TG 6 DVD is going to be a while. He doesn't want to make people wait till the DVD is done before they can see the vids, so he's allowed people to put up any vids they might have made with a cam. There's quite a few floating about.

    Deezie The Vid Nazi being lenient? wow... :razz:

    seriously, though, some of these need to go to CV.com. Especially one from CJ. ^_^

    Is there a thread up on smashboards yet? If not, we need to start up one for this discussion. Not sure if it should go in the back room or not, though.
    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ PRAISE HELIX ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
    "Man, I fucking love me some jizz." - chadouken!


  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    CM - we basically converted the first srk topic into a discussion about what videos to send. we've had very few people say anything, so your input would be welcomed there.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    x1372 wrote:
    Ganondorf is definitely an excellent character (and for the record, I put him a bit higher in my vote about the tier list last time) but he's just not QUITE good enough to be a tier above where he is. He's got a ton of good things about him, but it's just not GREAT like some of the characters above him.

    Sheik is the game's best at combos. Marth has his awesome range and tipper power. Fox has extremely good combos, and the best rush-in in the game if you can get the timing perfect. Falco has his short hop blaster and his killer spike. Peach is the priority queen. Captain Falcon's speed and short hop knee are an extremely lethal combination. Samus' recovery, projectiles, and misdirection make her extremely difficult to play against. Jigglypuff's wall of pain is almost impossible to get around when done properly.

    Ganondorf has a lot going for him, but it's just not QUITE enough to get him up into the next tier. He has power and quickness, but most characters can keep just out of his range when played well. Also, when he's off the cliff, he's dead. At least captain falcon's jumping is a bit quicker to sometimes help him recover before his opponent can set up an edge guard, but ganondorf gives his opponent all the time in the world to set up an edge guard. There's only one really notable ganondorf player who has done well at several tournaments, and that's Eddie from Chicago. However, even eddie hasn't done too well at some of the latest tournaments, at least in part because so many players can take advantage of dorf's weaknesses.

    oh, and as for the match videos thing, we're working on determining which ones to give ya TB.


    But its my opinion, so dont try to impose your opinion on me. I have seen good marth's, and good shiek's, and I have seen good ganondorf's compete with them quite evenly. I have also seen good players for just about each of those characters you mentioned, and I still think Ganondorf is better. Obviously Shiek is the best character in the game, but I would put Ganondorf in second, then again THAT'S ME.
  • Zigmover21Zigmover21 White Integrity Joined: Posts: 1,072
    But nobody gives a shit what you think.
    Po-Chop Ninja Kick!!!
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Obviously Shiek is the best character in the game, but I would put Ganondorf in second, then again THAT'S ME.

    Okay fine. But why?


    -Syn
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • specsspecs Excuse me, princess! Joined: Posts: 6,380 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Pichu blows.

    But is there ANYTHING redeeming about him in mid-level to high-level play? At all?
    Carlos and Dave Anime Rave is the BEST damn anime review show on the internet! AnimeRave.xyz
  • Ho0v-ManHo0v-Man Something clever Joined: Posts: 500
    specs wrote:
    Pichu blows.

    But is there ANYTHING redeeming about him in mid-level to high-level play? At all?
    The only thing I found redeeming about pichu is that his specials are more damaging than pikachu's.. If you learn to to hit your opponent w/ :d: B while dodging it and not use the smashes that don't hurt you could really....suck a little less. :lame:
    I don't have enough space for a really cool signature I found about vampire sex and whatnot. Screw you SRK...screw you.
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    But is there ANYTHING redeeming about him in mid-level to high-level play? At all?


    If you win with him you get props.


    Oh, and I guess his hit and run game is pretty good too.


    -CyniK
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • white shadowwhite shadow WHAT'S MY NAME NYUKAH?!!! Joined: Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I remember a debate stating that Samus was considered by many to be top tier on Final Destination due to awesome recovery and uninterrupted missiles, etc... Has been this accepted by the [majority] of the Smash community? :confused:
    It could be Esther Baxter vs. Pat Morita in drag and half of this board would be like "black chicks don't really turn me on sooo..." - Randomnigga

    " Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?!!!"- Wayne Brady from Chappelle's Show. LOL!!!
  • SynikaLSynikaL Melee Prophet Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Samus does well on flat stages such as FD because there are very few obstacles--if any--to stop her from using her vast array of projectiles the way she wants/needs to. Therefore, she decidely controls the tempo of the match, especially if her opponent has no projectile of his own (Falcon is a rare exception). Also, her ability to recover from anywhere on the stage is aided by the fact the FD has alot of space below the stage, making it even harder than normal to edge guard her when she decides to come in low (like 95% of the time).

    Really, any character with a good projectile game has an advantage on this stage (Falco is a scary example), so yes, it has been excepted by the majority.

    -SynikaL
    "Grandad, this food is destructive!"
    "Boy, what is wrong with you? This food is your culture."
    "Then the culture's destructive."

    -The Boondocks
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Let's see...

    Pichu...

    Hmm. Well, if you can SHFFLC his neutral air attack, you can give your opponent something to watch out for (SHFFLC = short hop fast fall l-cancel). It's not that he's even THAT bad, he just doesn't have any of the scary crazy offensive and defensive crap that the rest have. I'ts like a "man among gods" scenerio... but yeah, overall, pichu just doesn't compare to the rest.

    As for the ganondorf "opinion" that's all well and good. You can believe whatever you want, but if you want to have a decent conversation and have opinions mean anything, you really have to back up WHY you think the big gerudo is second best.

    For the samus top tier on FD, I disagree. FD is clearly one of Samus' best stages (if not the best - dreamland is quite nice samus territory for similar reasons to FD). Sure, it gives her many more advantages, but that doesn't mean everything. Most characters have means of stopping missiles. (For an excellent match of samus fighting on FD, look for "Wes (Samus) vs. Vidjogamer (Peach) 2" on DC++)

    If we were to declare samus "top tier" on FD, she would clearly have to be as good as or better than fox, marth, and sheik. This really isn't the case. Sheik's needles still stop missiles at the most convenient angle (and a full pack will stop a charge shot). Marth can advance through a wall of projectiles with his fairs and ftilts. Fox has a reflector and his speed to keep up with samus. It significantly help's samus' game, to be sure, but isn't IMO enough to make her top tier.
  • white shadowwhite shadow WHAT'S MY NAME NYUKAH?!!! Joined: Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    x1372 wrote:
    For the samus top tier on FD, I disagree. FD is clearly one of Samus' best stages (if not the best - dreamland is quite nice samus territory for similar reasons to FD). Sure, it gives her many more advantages, but that doesn't mean everything. Most characters have means of stopping missiles. (For an excellent match of samus fighting on FD, look for "Wes (Samus) vs. Vidjogamer (Peach) 2" on DC++)

    If we were to declare samus "top tier" on FD, she would clearly have to be as good as or better than fox, marth, and sheik. This really isn't the case. Sheik's needles still stop missiles at the most convenient angle (and a full pack will stop a charge shot). Marth can advance through a wall of projectiles with his fairs and ftilts. Fox has a reflector and his speed to keep up with samus. It significantly helps samus' game, to be sure, but isn't IMO enough to make her top tier.

    I've seen that Wes match many times and studied it thoroughly. I have to disagree with you though, Fox's Reflector is a very poor counter for Samus' missiles mainly because of missile cancelling. I easily counter Reflectors by constantly spamming missiles if they reflect it I either can attack them during it (wavedashing down smash does an excellent job of ducking on the reflected missle) or feed them another missile into the giant blast which usually breaks their guard = GGPO.:badboy:

    Marth's normals can eradicate missiles but it requires some timing which isn't easy in hectic matches even among the Smash elite (seen match vids), especially when I could just shoot a big blast or another missile while he's preoccupied with the 1st one.

    Any above Samus player also know to missile cancel you missile in such a way to avoid Sheik's needles, even if they do an aerial needle attack it won't be much of a problem, esp. if you alternate between power & homing. Fully charged needles are a different story but is still not a huge problem since fully charged needles are a luxury that Sheiks only get after a lengthy KO.

    When I use the missles I think of them as obstacles, not actually damage-dealing tools unless my opponent is truly vunerable. If you make them focus on your projectiles they can't give their full focus on you. Samus' sex kick and down smash has digustingly high priority that outprioritizes most of the moves the top tiers have or at least trades with them. Samus' floatiness yet heaviness also eliminates most of the top tiers' generic throw and juggle-fests except for extremely high damages.

    Lastly and most importantly Samus doesn't want to freakin' die. Bomb jumping on Final Destination is not only easy to do but makes her able to stay out and even stall if need be. Samus' heaviness makes it a challenge to be smashed away even on 120%, and AD Beam Grapple can help quite a bit with the occasional spike or bomb jump interruption by a needle.

    I'm not saying Samus can't be beaten or anything rediculous like that, but if top tiers have to *TRY* hard to beat Samus (which is usually the case when I watch match vids or play with her) then I consider her top tier on Final Destination. :smile:
    It could be Esther Baxter vs. Pat Morita in drag and half of this board would be like "black chicks don't really turn me on sooo..." - Randomnigga

    " Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?!!!"- Wayne Brady from Chappelle's Show. LOL!!!
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I've seen that Wes match many times and studied it thoroughly. I have to disagree with you though, Fox's Reflector is a very poor counter for Samus' missiles mainly because of missile cancelling. I easily counter Reflectors by constantly spamming missiles if they reflect it I either can attack them during it (wavedashing down smash does an excellent job of ducking on the reflected missle) or feed them another missile into the giant blast which usually breaks their guard = GGPO.:badboy:

    Marth's normals can eradicate missiles but it requires some timing which isn't easy in hectic matches even among the Smash elite (seen match vids), especially when I could just shoot a big blast or another missile while he's preoccupied with the 1st one.

    Any above Samus player also know to missile cancel you missile in such a way to avoid Sheik's needles, even if they do an aerial needle attack it won't be much of a problem, esp. if you alternate between power & homing. Fully charged needles are a different story but is still not a huge problem since fully charged needles are a luxury that Sheiks only get after a lengthy KO.

    When I use the missles I think of them as obstacles, not actually damage-dealing tools unless my opponent is truly vunerable. If you make them focus on your projectiles they can't give their full focus on you. Samus' sex kick and down smash has digustingly high priority that outprioritizes most of the moves the top tiers have or at least trades with them. Samus' floatiness yet heaviness also eliminates most of the top tiers' generic throw and juggle-fests except for extremely high damages.

    Lastly and most importantly Samus doesn't want to freakin' die. Bomb jumping on Final Destination is not only easy to do but makes her able to stay out and even stall if need be. Samus' heaviness makes it a challenge to be smashed away even on 120%, and AD Beam Grapple can help quite a bit with the occasional spike or bomb jump interruption by a needle.

    I'm not saying Samus can't be beaten or anything rediculous like that, but if top tiers have to *TRY* hard to beat Samus (which is usually the case when I watch match vids or play with her) then I consider her top tier on Final Destination. :smile:

    I never said samus wasn't good there.

    Fox's reflector is still useful for reflecting missiles, though most fox players rely on his speed to avoid that situation in the first place. After all, he can shine cancel right after reflecting it, which gives him an advantage. Given that you can wavedash out of a shine, a good fox should be able to get away with this by reflecting and backing off before you can hit him.

    Good marth players can pretty easily swat down most missiles and avoid the other ones. If you have a charge shot ready, that's really more the marth's fault than anything else... but marth still has plenty of options.

    depending on how you missile cancel you can prevent some needles, but in the end the best you can do is force sheik to either jump, duck, or dodge. Given the fear of the everpresent slap, this isn't necessarily a good thing. I guess most things in that matchup are situational though. Samus should rarely have a chance to charge a full blast, and sheik should rarely be able to get a full pack of needles.

    Believe me, I know quite well about using projectiles as obstacles first and damage dealers second. My primary characters are peach and young link, both of which rely heavily on projectiles (peach not quite as much, that's more dependant on her opponent).

    Bottom line, I agree with you about top tiers having to work to beat samus though. Then again, no characters in the top three tiers have any character matchup where someone else can beat them without having to work for it. On FD, samus is still a little worse off than the top three. Also, she's about dead even with the rest of the "upper" tier in this scenerio as well. Falco has SHB. Peach doesn't die either and has plenty of room for her setups (as shown easily in that vid I mentioned). Jigglypuff's air supremacy and survival ability are aided by FD as well. Falcon... no platforms makes running shfflc knees absolutely deadly.

    Yes, the level significantly helps samus. There's no question there. However, I don't think it's quite enough to make her "top tier" on that level. If we were going to have that, we'd have to make falco "top tier" on FD as well for his short hop blaster, and plenty of other crap on other levels.

    Also, someone who is good at shield reflecting projectiles is going to cause some significant problems to samus' FD game as well. On my better days, I can send back half of them while blocking 95% of the remainder. Sure, a lot of the time the missle just hits the next incoming missile, but it gives me the opening I need to rush samus down.
  • white shadowwhite shadow WHAT'S MY NAME NYUKAH?!!! Joined: Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Falco has several problems, Samus has very few. Falco also has poor recovery when compared to Samus. Falco's priority is around average when compared to Samus who's sex kick and down smash alone outprioritizes 90% of all the normals in the game.:tup:
    It could be Esther Baxter vs. Pat Morita in drag and half of this board would be like "black chicks don't really turn me on sooo..." - Randomnigga

    " Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?!!!"- Wayne Brady from Chappelle's Show. LOL!!!
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Eh, just a quick note - Fox can't shine cancel right after reflecting stuff, including missiles. When he actually reflects something, he'll suffer a significant amount of lag before he can move again. IIRC, if you take another Fox player and just keep shooting, you can actually stun him indefinitely since he doesn't have time to put down the shield before the next shot hits...
  • MillionMillion King of Creeps Joined: Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Okay, I recently got into playing this game again...but of course, I still have no competition....so this is coming from the ultimate casual player here....

    Did I hear right that items are now completely banned from tourney play? It was some days ago so my memory isn't all the fresh on the topic...but I think it was mentioned in that thread here about "SSB:Melee -Fighting Game or Not?" If so, why? I thought they just turned off the truly "cheap" stuff like Hearts, the Homerun bat, starman, and possibly those mega-tomatoes. Everything else seems fair to me...I will never be a tournament player, but I'm just curious here. Eh, I guess there's also the annoying explosive crate/barrels/capsules situation....and the bobombs that spawn from nowhere.

    heh, I've had the game since it first came out...and I only have a total of 924 Vs. matches! ONE of those matches was against human players....yes, one match. This is after the past two days of playing too....before I started up again...it was at 901 matches or so. I think the KO total is only like15,000something.

    *it still hurts my very soul that Mewtwo sucks so much. :sad: It's almost as if some of the developers had a deep-seated hatred for the character, and decided to make him as stupid and sissified as possible.
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