*** Misconceptions of the SF4 Game System Mechanics - GREAT READ ***

Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !!Joined: Posts: 723
Okay, so there is a crap load of misconceptions about the game system mechanics of SF4 and I will try to finally clear them up. Here, I will cover such topics as some of the the special/super move shortcuts, true block strings, negative edge, move priority, chaining, linking, special/super cancelling, counter hits, trip guard, and charge times in several splitup sections. If you want me to explain anything else, I will happily test/answer things out for you. :china:

Dragon Punch Motion Shortcut

Okay, so the most famous shortcut misconception is the shoryuken.
The "real" motion: :dp:
The misconceived shortcut motion: :df::df: THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And just as an FYI for a technical reason why Code Shortcuts exist, it's REALLY EASY to state why. SF4 has one change in the game that did not exist in all previous games: switching between any of the 8 directions RE-REGISTERS ALL JOYSTICK INPUTS. Because a diagonal counts as both :r: and :d:, hitting the diagonal registers as both of those inputs. Now, in ALL OTHER Street Fighter games, shifting from :df: to :d: meant you let go of :r: and that's all. It never registered as :d: being pressed again.

But in SF4, the game processes joystick inputs differently. Moving from :df: to :d: counts as PRESSING DOWN, not as anything being released, even though you've never let go of :d: the whole time. This is why Code Shortcuts work. So if you go from :df: to :d: back to :df:, the DP code gets processed because it registers the second input as pressing down again.


A particularly good shortcut motion: :df::d::df:.

So, for all of you dragon punch mashers, all you have to do is move the stick from :df: to :d: constantly while pressing punch (or kick for Cammy and such) to get a dragon punch. :arazz: Seriously though, can you just do this rather than busting up the sticks at the arcades by mashing your 360's just to get that fire shoryuken?

But in all realness, this particular shortcut should be the way you do your shoryukens due to its effectiveness in three particular places: anti-airing, comboing, and interrupting block strings.

Anti-airing:
When you do the shortcut motion, you are always crouching and this means your hitbox is drastically smaller (in general, half the vertical hitbox compared to the standing hitbox) thus giving you an opportunity to hit your opponent lower. This means that your shoryuken maintains its invincibility during the active frames that hit your opponent as well as maximize damage. For example, Ryu can deal either 70 or 160 damage with his fierce shoryuken depending on the height you hit your opponent; 160 when the opponent is low to the floor and 70 if he's higher. Also Ryu has 6 frames of invincibility at the very start of his 3-frame startup shoryuken, which means if you hit your opponent anywhere within the first 4 active frames of the shoryuken, you will get an uppercut that beats your opponent clean while doing the full 200 damage. So, doing this shortcut greatly increases your chances of getting these rewards because of the lowered hitbox from crouching that allows you to duck under the opponent's jump in attack.

For example, Sagat's diagonally jumping :mp: (aka The People's Elbow) can stuff shoryukens if you do it too early due to its amazing hitbox and active frames. The way to beat it though is to do a late shoryuken. But if you just try to do the actual shoryuken motion, you might get hit on the head with the all mighty People's Elbow. But the shortcut allows you to duck way underneath it, and get that shoryuken that beats it clean because of your invincibility of the start of the shoryuken.

Oh, but sometimes you want that trade shoryuken so you can get an ultra. So, you can still do the shortcut motion, but just do it earlier so your invincibility runs out and the trade is much more likely to happen.

Comboing:
This shortcut allows combo's such as Sagat's crouching shorts cancelled into tiger uppercut and Zangief's crouching shorts into EX green hand much easier. Okay, first of all, these links of shorts are relatively hard for these characters (2-frame links), and if you need help on them, practice plinking the crouching shorts with the jab (click here for more details about plinking).
So, to do these two combos, start at :df: and just hold it there for the whole time you're doing the crouching shorts. Right when you hit the last short that you want, flick the stick to :d: and then back to :df: and hit that :hp: for your shoryuken or :2p: for your EX green hand.

Interrupting block strings:
Okay, while in a true block string, you are constantly blocking and the only things you can do is stand block or crouch block; you cannot do any attack, grab, focus attack, back dash, etc. So, if you're opponent is doing a true block string and they are constantly doing crouching shorts and you try to mash a shoryuken, you will get hit by the short because you are in a true block string and the original shoryuken motion requires you to press the :r: that makes you stand up. But, if you're doing the shortcut, you are never standing, so that means you will block their whole true block string, and your shoryuken will come out as soon as they end the block string. I'm not saying this is a good tactic, but it's a thing to remember.




Super/Ultra (double quarter circle forward) Motion Shortcut:
So, many players transitioning from other Street Fighter games complain about missing their Ultra with an EX Shoryuken and the likes. It is often blamed that the shortcuts are causing this EX Shoryuken to come out instead.

Well, if you guys know what move priority is, then it is pretty obvious that this is impossible. Okay, so move priority is when the game engine decides which move comes out in relation to what directional and button inputs you put in.

For example, if you do :d::df::r: + :lp: with Ryu (aka hadouken), you give the game engine two possibilities of moves: a standing jab punch or a hadouken. The hadouken has more move priority though and it comes out instead of the jab.

Another extremely common example is when a player tries to walk forward and immediately do a crouching forward cancelled into a hadouken. So, you're giving the game engine the input of :r::d::df::r: + :lp:. As many of you probably know by now, if you try to do this, all you will be getting is a crouching forward cancelled into a shoryuken, NOT a hadouken. That is because a shoryuken has more move priority then a hadouken. The way to avoid the shoryuken and get the hadouken instead is to walk forward, then WAIT (have your stick anywhere except :r: or :df:), and then do the qcf+p. The reason you wait is to have the game engine "forget" that you pressed the first :r: and will not confuse your motion to become a dp.

So, with these two examples we have determined that the hadouken has more move priority than a standing jab, but the shoryuken has more move priority than a hadouken. Furthermore, the list of move priority starting from greatest to least is generally as follows:

-Taunt (Note that the stick has to be in neutral for you to taunt)
-Focus Attack
-Grab
-Ultra
-Super
-Full circle
-Half circle
-Dragon punch
-Quarter circle
-Normal move with a directional input
-Normal moves (in the order of hk, hp, mk, mp, lk, lp)

However, this is just the general outline, and each character has their own list of move priorities. And if you're interested, here is the move priority list for ST.


Okay, but finally back to the double quarter circle motion shortcuts. Note that I only really played Third Strike, so I'm not too sure if the old shortcut was in ST, but I believe it had it also.
The "real" motion: :d::df::r::d::df::r:
The Third Strike shortcut motion: :d::df::r::d::df:
The SF4 shortcut motion: :d::df::d::df::r:

So, the Third Strike motion allowed players to press the punch/kick at the :df: and still get a super while the SF4 motion registers the motion as a EX shoryuken if pressed at :df:. Thus, older players entering the game of SF4 think that they SF4 game mechanics are messed up while it is actually the older SF games that were in fact also screwy. So, if you constantly keep getting EX shoryuken instead of your ultra, it means that you are pressing the punches/kicks too early! Practice pressing it just a little bit later, and you should be fine.

Another thing I want to note is when people do a shoryuken with Ryu and then an unwanted super comes out. The super comes out because of negative edge. This is the feature that allows the release (not pressing) of a button input, it counts towards special/super/ultra moves, but not normal moves, grabs, focus attacks, and taunts.
Basically, the reason your super is coming after your shoryuken is because you were doing too many inputs for your shoryuken (aka mashing) and then you pressed your punch at :df: but then you followed to :r: and released that button press there, which activates the super.

Solutions? The #1 way to stop your super to come out is to just hold down the punch button. This will mean that there is only one button input for the game to read, which will lead to just your shoryuken (no super!). The other way to stop doing it is to stop mashing your inputs...
ok so tl;dr but I do have a serious problem with how lazy the input for the game can be. a few days ago a friend and I were fooling around in training mode and I discovered that while facing right I can do a clock-wise 720 and make :qcf::qcf: super/ultras come out. Given that it isn't really a big deal because doing that would really be more work and completely impractical to actually do in a competitive match, but why on earth does is this possible
*edit* why can you also pull off demon's by mashing :lp::mp::hp::lk::l: a few times?

Okay, both of these follow the same concept and it is not solely based on the shortcuts of the game. Even without the shortcuts, this would still be possible. So, whenever you enter an input (button or direction) the game engine "remembers" it for a few frames. I'm not sure exactly how many, but it also is dependent on what move it is.

Example:
With Balrog, you can charge back then dash and do an ultra. But you cannot dash and do a regular dash punch.

So, with Super/Ultra motions the game will remember your inputs for quite a while. So, if you mash every directional input (aka 360's clockwise) fast enough, the game will finally register those 6 (or 5 with the shortcut) directional inputs you need for the super.
So it basically looks like this:
:d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf: :r: :df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df:
*..........................*.*..........................*........................*....

I put * to the inputs that actually count for your Super/Ultra motion. As you can see, you are indeed doing a Super/Ultra motion but in a very odd way. However, if you do it fast enough, it is indeed a Super/Ultra motion and it will come out eventually. Just remember that it is NOT because of the shortcuts that allows the super/ultra to come out. (Assuming you start at down), it will take three rotations to do an ultra with the SF4 shortcut as well as the 3s shortcut.

(Note that these are assuming you start your 360's at :d: and then going clockwise)
SF4:
1st rotation gives you: :d:, :df:
2nd rotation gives you: :d:, :df:
3rd rotation gives you: :r:

3s:
1st rotation gives you: :d:, :df:
2nd rotation gives you: :r:
3rd rotation gives you: :d:, :df:

Same concept for your raging demon. Try entering those inputs slow, and then faster, and then as fast as you can. You will find out that the faster you do them, the higher your chance that the game will "remember" your inputs and finally do that raging demon.




The Differences Between Chaining and Linking
Right off the bat, I will give you my definitions of cancelling, linking, and chaining.
Special/super cancel - to cancel out some/all of the recovery frames of a normal move and go directly into a special/super move
Link - to do a move that gives you enough frame hit advantage to allow you to do another move after all of the first move's recovery frames
Chain - to cancel out some/all of the recovery frames of a normal move and go directly into another normal move


If you ever looked at frame data before, you will notice that some characters have the ability to "chain" their jabs and shorts. Chaining is basically like special cancelling into a fireball from a crouching forward except that you are just cancelling from a normal to another normal. This allows to create true block strings (not the only way though). BUT, there is a downfall to chaining; you cannot focus/special/super cancel after a chain.

For example, let's look at the frame data for Rufus:
His crouching jab comes out in 4 frames and has a hit advantage of +4 frames.
His crouching short comes out in 4 frames and has a hit advantage of +3 frames.
These both have the ability to chain.

If you know about frame data, you can see that it is impossible to link crouching short into crouching jab together as a combo. But chaining cuts out some or all of the recovery frames of the first move. So, if you chain these crouching short into crouching jab, it is not only a combo but it is actually a true block string. Note that you chain any chainable move into any other chainable move, with some slight exceptions. One exception is that Zangief's far standing short can be chained from his other chainable moves, but you can't chain into other chainable moves after it (you can link it to other moves though).

Okay, back to Rufus's crouching short into crouching jab combo. Remember that the flaw to chaining is that you cannot focus/special/super cancel immediately after a chain. And since you can't link the cr. lk into cr. lp, you cannot focus cancel, special cancel into galactic tornado, or super cancel into his super. Try it yourself:

(If you don't know, "xx" means to chain, special cancel, or super cancel)
Try cr. :lp: xx EX tornado (crouching jab cancelled into EX galactic tornado)
Then try. cr. :lk: xx EX tornado (crouching short cancelled into EX galactic tornado)
Now, try cr. :lk: xx cr. :lp: xx EX tornado (crouching short chained into crouching jab, and then cancelled into EX tornado)

You will find out that the first two combo's will succeed in getting out the EX tornado, but the third fails to do so. This is not because of your failed execution; it is because of chaining.

But you cannot focus/special/super cancel only directly after a chain.
Example:

(Note that "xx" means chain/special/super cancel while "," means to link)
(Also, note that the cr. lp to cr. lp is a 1-frame link!! So, this is NOT a practical combo due to the hard link, unable to plink [but you can still double tap], lack of hit confirm, and use of an EX meter)
cr. :lp: xx cr. :lp: xx cr. :lp: xx cr. :lp: xx EX tornado (doesn't work)
cr. :lp: xx cr. :lp: xx cr. :lp: , cr. :lp: xx EX tornado (does work)
cr. :lp: , cr. :lp: , cr. :lp: , cr. :lp: xx EX tornado (does work)
cr. :lp: , cr. :lp: , cr. :lp: xx cr. :lp: xx EX tornado (doesn't work)
and so on and so on.

If you noticed, the ones where the last two cr. jab are linked are the only one that works. It does not matter at all what happened before hand; it is just whether or not you linked or chained the last two normal moves that leads you to be able to cancel into that EX tornado.

However, there is also a very significant exception that I found for Chun-Li. Her low shorts are impossible to link together, but they are chainable. Thus, you can combo them together but you are suppose to not be able to special cancel. However, you can special cancel into regular/EX lightning legs. It's weird, maybe there are exceptions to some specific moves. I will also further test when I get my setup back.




Counter Hits
Counter hits happen when your move hits your opponent's move while it's still in the startup frames. Counter hits give a possible of four (but usually just three) unique properties: a damage increase, stun increase, hit stun increase, and possibly special properties.

1. The damage increase is 25% but only for the first HIT. So, for example, a non counterhit EX snake strike by Rufus deals 280 damage if you get all 7 hits. If it's a counterhit instead, it does not deal 25% damage total of 280 giving a total of 350 damage (pretty ridonkulous if it did). It just gives a 25% boost for the very first hit of the snake strike. Each hit deals 40 points of damage, so a counter hit EX snake strike that lands all hits will deal 290 damage. Just note that counter hit fully charged TAP of Balrog does 700 points of damage and an extra 345 damage if you cancel to the super for a total of 1045 damage (unscaled).

2. The stun increase is exactly how the increase in damage works. 25% more for the first hit (not move) only. Making Zangief's hp headbutt do 750 stun instead of the regular 600. (Pokey86)

3. Then there is the extra hit stun. If you got a counter hit jab, short, or any directional move that used these two (i.e. Sagat's :r:+:lk:), you will get 1 extra frame of hit stun. If the counterhit was anything else (including special moves or the other normal moves other than jab and short), you will get an extra 3 frames of hit stun. So, with counterhits, Sagat can have links such as counterhit crouching fierce linked (not cancelled) into tiger uppercut for ridiculous damage.

4. There are also some moves that give special properties when it's a counterhit. Like Chun-Li's stupid backflip kick (:df:+:lk:) which actually becomes a launcher for a juggle if it's a counterhit. Not many moves give special properties though. Does anyone know more? This one was the only one I could recall.

Sagat's tiger uppercut on counterhit sends the opponent in a "twirling" juggling state. They can still be juggled with any move with "pursuit property" (this basically are moves that can juggle, i.e. :r:+:hk:, diagonally jump :mp:, any tiger knee, super, or ultra) however, it will be much harder/impossible to add the :r:+:hk: if you dashed forward for your FADC (focus attack dash cancel). (Pokey86)

Normally, the first hit of Ken's fierce shoryuken keeps the opponent grounded. On counterhit, that first hit sends the opponent in a juggling airborne state. Combined with the weird properties of his ultra, if you FADC then ultra, the counterhit allows him to do his full ultra whereas a regular hit would just give the short, crappy ultra. (Pokey86)

Counterhit lvl 1 Focus Attack (before you flash white) gives a crumple just like how a lvl 2 Focus Attack does. (Pokey86)




Trip Guard
Okay, so I have not really tested out too much for trip guard in SF4, but it indeed exists. Trip guard basically says that when you do an empty jump (jump but don't do any move), you can block (or whatever else you want) as soon as you land back on the ground. However, if you instead do a jump and do an attack in the air, when you land you cannot block for the first few frames when you're on the floor. I'm not too sure how many frames exactly, so a clarification would be nice here. Also, in my testings in SF3:3s, you can still choose whether or not to stand up or crouch on the first frame you land; it's just that you can't block. Not sure if it's like that in SF4, but be assured I will test it later. :razz:
yeb, post: wrote:
Anyway, some info on landing frames/trip guard:

-After a jump, there are 4 landing frames where you cannot walk/dash/jump again.
-If you empty jump, you can block immediately upon landing (standing or crouching, no difference), or do an attack the instant you land.
-If you attack in the air, then you cannot block for the first 2 frames when you land, and can't attack for all 4 landing frames.
-You can always tech throws that grab you during your landing frames.
-If you attack in air and then attempt to attack during your landing frames, the attack will be buffered and performed as soon as the landing frames are over.

Important:
The landing frame buffer is particularly weird, and I think most people don't know what effect it can have. If you try a link combo on the ground, your muscle memory is going to be based on a move taking X number of frames to hit. If you try the same link combo off a jump in though, and you press the first button during the landing frames, the attack won't come out right away. The game still registers the attack, but it won't be performed until AFTER the landing frames, so the attack can effectively take a couple extra frames to hit. This changes the timing for links, and can easily cause you to drop combos that you do by muscle memory. The way to avoid that problem is to manually delay your attack slightly when you land, so you don't time it during the landing frames.

Anyway, how landing frames affect safe jumps:

-Invincible attacks that hit on the 3rd frame or faster cannot be safe jumped (your attack would whiff during their 1st startup frame and they'd hit you during your 2nd landing frame).
-Wakeups that are 4-5 frames can be safe jumped, but can't be hit by option selects.
-Wakeups that are 6 frames or slower can be safe jumped, and then hit by your own invincible move as an option select.
-Invincible command throws cannot be safe jumped. Even though you can block, they grab you before you can do something that would actually avoid them, like jumping or DPing.







Charge Time
This is not a that big of a misconception, but many people/sites say that charge moves take 2 seconds to fully charge up. However, almost all charge moves (with the exception of Vega who has 42-frames and 60-frames for his move set) require 55 frames of charge. And since the game engine runs at 60 frames per second, it actually requires less than a second for gaining the charge.




So, that's all I can think of right now, but there are definitely much more important topics out there like damage scaling, meaties, juggling, armor cancelling, and such. I will probably cover these topics later, but I currently have finals for college right now. But you can probably find these in many other threads or sites, but you can still ask me if you want some clarification. I will also be happy to add any contributions if any of you have some whether it is further details on the topics, information on new topics, videos to help explain, corrections in grammar, a stupid-funny video, or anything to help improve this thread. Well, thanks for reading my thread and I hope you guys leave a comment. :shy:

Oh, and just to share with you fellow SRK members:




Enjoy! :bgrin:
«13

Comments

  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Possible reserved post.
  • gaosergaoser MY DAWTERS R SO PRTY Joined: Posts: 814
    i hate you and your sagat
    -- "having aduken is advantageous, using aduken is chicken, and abusing aduken is winning." - brucelee-kid
  • VictormaruVictormaru Legendary Sannin Joined: Posts: 734
    Good shit, man. I learned a lot. Other people need to read this.
    "Please don't disappoint me." - Orochimaru
  • KrackatoaKrackatoa Ensaikyopedia Trolldanica. Joined: Posts: 2,141
    A great resource post. Should be stored in a freezer to be thawed for later consumption.
    Algonquin Competitive Gaming - Bringing Hyperbolic Time Chambers to the Masses
  • andyocrandyocr J.Mp --->teleport Joined: Posts: 610
    ur soul is mine
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Good read, i new a fair bit of that but the exact frame bonuses on counter hit i wasn't to aware of.

    Heres a few Random links you can pull with counter hits

    Akuma can Far HK -> Far HK/Sweep (First one has to hit once)
    Akuma can Cr.MP -> Far HK
    Bison can HK -> HK
    Chun Li can F.HK to Ultra so i hear (Haven't seen or tested it)

    & Counter hits also increase stun by 25% to. Making Giefs Headbutt do 750 Stun, 600 normally.

    Small list of Counter hit alterations i know of

    Sagat Tiger Upper -> Spinning knockdown, messed up many a sagats HK combo :P
    Ken SRK, a big mess of alterations i don't care to go in to.
    Focus attack Lvl1 - gives crumple, adds a kind of fast spin knockdown for air hits
  • vietxmikeyvietxmikey Joined: Posts: 210
    I like this thread! Thanks Richard! Really interesting. I'm learning quite a few things about the engine.
  • BmanBman Heart of Space Joined: Posts: 725
    Yeah, a lot of effort went into this post. Someone rep this guy for me, I can only neutral rep.
    AE Main: Ken
    3rd Strike Main: Ken
    Guilty Gear Main: Ken
    Soul Caliber Main: Ken
    Barbie Doll Main: Ken
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Good read, i new a fair bit of that but the exact frame bonuses on counter hit i wasn't to aware of.

    Heres a few Random links you can pull with counter hits

    Akuma can Far HK -> Far HK/Sweep (First one has to hit once)
    Akuma can Cr.MP -> Far HK
    Bison can HK -> HK
    Chun Li can F.HK to Ultra so i hear (Haven't seen or tested it)

    & Counter hits also increase stun by 25% to. Making Giefs Headbutt do 750 Stun, 600 normally.

    Small list of Counter hit alterations i know of

    Sagat Tiger Upper -> Spinning knockdown, messed up many a sagats HK combo :P
    Ken SRK, a big mess of alterations i don't care to go in to.
    Focus attack Lvl1 - gives crumple, adds a kind of fast spin knockdown for air hits

    Oh, thank you, I totally forgot about the extra stun and those three special properties. Appreciate it!! :chat:

    Glad to those who enjoyed the post. :D


    And screw you Charles and Andy. :arazz:
  • BrettBrett Dibi-dibi-dis Joined: Posts: 409
    ok so tl;dr but I do have a serious problem with how lazy the input for the game can be. a few days ago a friend and I were fooling around in training mode and I discovered that while facing right I can do a clock-wise 720 and make :qcf::qcf: super/ultras come out. Given that it isn't really a big deal because doing that would really be more work and completely impractical to actually do in a competitive match, but why on earth does is this possible
    *edit* why can you also pull off demon's by mashing :lp::mp::hp::lk::l: a few times?
  • redrapperredrapper I don't even use this name no more... Joined: Posts: 622
    ok so tl;dr but I do have a serious problem with how lazy the input for the game can be. a few days ago a friend and I were fooling around in training mode and I discovered that while facing right I can do a clock-wise 720 and make :qcf::qcf: super/ultras come out. Given that it isn't really a big deal because doing that would really be more work and completely impractical to actually do in a competitive match, but why on earth does is this possible
    *edit* why can you also pull off demon's by mashing :lp::mp::hp::lk::l: a few times?

    because the developers wanted the game to be new people friendly... and a lot of times, some new people will screw up the 720 motion and get that one.

    As well, when you type tl;dr in a topic, and attempt to segway it into your own rant, isn't that kind of douchey? especially since Richard has a lot of good points here, that are a benefit to almost anybody's game.

    Also Richard, I think the trip guard is three frames or so. All I know is that if I see anybody in the cast do a normal while jumping, I can low forward into fireball on reaction. Or low forward Shoryu. Whichever one I feel like.
    I don't know what to put here.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    ok so tl;dr but I do have a serious problem with how lazy the input for the game can be. a few days ago a friend and I were fooling around in training mode and I discovered that while facing right I can do a clock-wise 720 and make :qcf::qcf: super/ultras come out. Given that it isn't really a big deal because doing that would really be more work and completely impractical to actually do in a competitive match, but why on earth does is this possible
    *edit* why can you also pull off demon's by mashing :lp::mp::hp::lk::l: a few times?

    Okay, both of these follow the same concept and it is not solely based on the shortcuts of the game. Even without the shortcuts, this would still be possible. So, whenever you enter an input (button or direction) the game engine "remembers" it for a few frames. I'm not sure exactly how many, but it also determines what move it is.

    Example:
    With Balrog, you can charge back then dash and do an ultra. But you cannot dash and do a regular dash punch.

    So, with Super/Ultra motions the game will remember your inputs for quite a while. So, if you mash every directional input (aka 360's clockwise) fast enough, the game will finally register those 6 directional inputs you need for the super.
    So it basically looks like this:
    :d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf: :r: :df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df:
    *..........................*.*..........................*........................*....

    I put * to the inputs that actually count for your Super/Ultra motion. As you can see, you are indeed doing a Super/Ultra motion but in a very odd way. However, if you do it fast enough, it is indeed a Super/Ultra motion and it will come out.

    Same concept for your raging demon. Try entering those inputs slow, and then faster, and then as fast as you can. You will find out that the faster you do them, the higher your chance that the game will "remember" your inputs and finally do that raging demon.


    And RedRapper, yeah it seems to be like 3 or so frames but it is hard to determine unless I have some programmable pad or something.
  • npartovinpartovi "Nima" not "Nemo" Joined: Posts: 738
    WTF richard. your gonna break sf4.
    Notice that the stiffest tree is
    most easily cracked, while the bamboo
    or willow survives by bending with the wind.
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    ok so tl;dr but I do have a serious problem with how lazy the input for the game can be. a few days ago a friend and I were fooling around in training mode and I discovered that while facing right I can do a clock-wise 720 and make :qcf::qcf: super/ultras come out. Given that it isn't really a big deal because doing that would really be more work and completely impractical to actually do in a competitive match, but why on earth does is this possible
    *edit* why can you also pull off demon's by mashing :lp::mp::hp::lk::l: a few times?

    tl;dr, sorry.

    Thanks for the post, Richard. Nice to have all this in one place.
  • gaosergaoser MY DAWTERS R SO PRTY Joined: Posts: 814
    richard,

    do you think trip guard might vary between characters? I feel sometimes that Honda's recovery from his air normals feel horrendous compared to other characters, while characters such as blanka recover almost immediately... maybe it's just me, regardless, you're sagat is fucking gay.
    -- "having aduken is advantageous, using aduken is chicken, and abusing aduken is winning." - brucelee-kid
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    richard,

    do you think trip guard might vary between characters? I feel sometimes that Honda's recovery from his air normals feel horrendous compared to other characters, while characters such as blanka recover almost immediately... maybe it's just me, regardless, you're sagat is fucking gay.

    Grammar please. "your sagat"** :rofl:

    But I have like no clue on the specifics of trip guard. The only practical way to find out more about it is to have a programmable pad. So, if anyone has one, please test stuff out.


    And another big :rofl: to Nima. And again, thanks for enjoying the posts guys.
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Thank you, having this debate in another thread, linked them here... It's amazing, you can literally show a video to someone of :df::df::p: not resulting in a shoryuken, and they'll straight face tell you that you're a liar.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Thank you, having this debate in another thread, linked them here... It's amazing, you can literally show a video to someone of :df::df::p: not resulting in a shoryuken, and they'll straight face tell you that you're a liar.

    Yeah, totally agree. I do not have recording material, but if anyone does have the material, can you record this topic showing the incorrect and correct shortcut of the shoryuken? I will also be grateful if you can record videos regarding the other topics as well.

    In general, I would like the videos to have input display on and could you clear the inputs every time you do an example (just pause and unpause)? That would make it much more clear. So, like do the actual shortcut motion for shoryuken, pause, unpause, incorrect shoryuken shortcut.
  • BrettBrett Dibi-dibi-dis Joined: Posts: 409
    Okay, both of these follow the same concept and it is not solely based on the shortcuts of the game. Even without the shortcuts, this would still be possible. So, whenever you enter an input (button or direction) the game engine "remembers" it for a few frames. I'm not sure exactly how many, but it also determines what move it is.

    Example:
    With Balrog, you can charge back then dash and do an ultra. But you cannot dash and do a regular dash punch.

    So, with Super/Ultra motions the game will remember your inputs for quite a while. So, if you mash every directional input (aka 360's clockwise) fast enough, the game will finally register those 6 directional inputs you need for the super.
    So it basically looks like this:
    :d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf: :r: :df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df:
    *..........................*.*..........................*........................*....

    I put * to the inputs that actually count for your Super/Ultra motion. As you can see, you are indeed doing a Super/Ultra motion but in a very odd way. However, if you do it fast enough, it is indeed a Super/Ultra motion and it will come out.

    Same concept for your raging demon. Try entering those inputs slow, and then faster, and then as fast as you can. You will find out that the faster you do them, the higher your chance that the game will "remember" your inputs and finally do that raging demon.

    That's kind of what I figured. That with super/ultra there is a wider timing window in which inputs are recorded and excess ones are simply not counted. I did not realize though that it was because of the shortcut motions that the super/ultra could come out with an "incorrect" 720.
  • crushingyencrushingyen Joined: Posts: 118
    Interesting fact about the 3S/SF4 shortcuts. Never knew that existed.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    For anyone questioning the integrity of input shortcuts.

    1: IF yiou are indeed complaining about input shortcuts because you Do X move & Y move comes out (say Bison Ultra <-> Teleport) then you must be aware of the obvious fallacy in the argument. You are not performing the Monouvre correctly.

    2: The debate of whether shortcuts are intended to allow newer players to pull off moves through mashing, well i partly agree. I used to fully agree, but i'm starting to think that Shortcuts are intended for more than the above reason. For one shortcuts make fast links easier/realistice. Anyone knows that doing a Cr. LP withKen to EX SRK is pretty difficult when you're doing normal motion. meanwhile Doing cl.HPis tip top... but harder to actually hit in a real fight. I'd never expect new players to even be doing these links intentionally.

    3: Manipulating hitboxes.


    As for input delay, & the ability to add a crapload of other motions in between, that also has a use. Such as using normals within specials & pretty much anything regarding Vipers High Jump to Ultra.

    There are faults with it, any failure to input something correctly, even slightly wrong, can lead to another move being performed. But that's a drawback i'm willing to sacrifice, so that my SRK can truly be a useful anti air.

    sorry about the typos, my comps broke & my laptop keyboard sucks (Or, i suck on laptop keyboards)
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    That's kind of what I figured. That with super/ultra there is a wider timing window in which inputs are recorded and excess ones are simply not counted. I did not realize though that it was because of the shortcut motions that the super/ultra could come out with an "incorrect" 720.

    Just remember that it is NOT because of the shortcuts that allows the super/ultra to come out. (Assuming you start at down), it will take three rotations to do an ultra with the SF4 shortcut as well as the 3s shortcut.

    (Note that these are assuming you start your 360's at :d: and then going clockwise)
    SF4:
    1st rotation gives you: :d:, :df:
    2nd rotation gives you: :d:, :df:
    3rd rotation gives you: :r:

    3s:
    1st rotation gives you: :d:, :df:
    2nd rotation gives you: :r:, :d:
    3rd rotation gives you: :df:
  • BrettBrett Dibi-dibi-dis Joined: Posts: 409
    I always started them on up from a jump.
  • JaggerJagger Joined: Posts: 384
    There are faults with it, any failure to input something correctly, even slightly wrong, can lead to another move being performed. But that's a drawback i'm willing to sacrifice, so that my SRK can truly be a useful anti air.

    Thread over. Stupidity breaker tripped.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    Just some clarification of the issue of "shortcuts":

    A move is said to have "shortcut" motions if one or more of it's component directional inputs has it's permissiveness property set to "lenient", or if a direction can be omitted completely. If for example the direction :r: is to lenient, then any forward direction will be accepted as a valid input. If it's set to strict, then only :r: will be accepted. DP's have leniency set on all the directional inputs, so the motion for a DP is any forward, any down, any forward. Horizontal charge motions usually only have leniency set on :l:, will the :r: is usually set to strict, or it's replaced with a lenient :uf: (I'm not 100% sure, but leniency on diagonals prevent mirror motions, so :db: :df: won't work for charge motions, but :db: :uf: or :db: :r: will. But again I'm not 100% sure). Vertical motions usually have leniency set on :d: and :u:. Most diagonals have leniency set, but in most cases they're just omitted (:d::r::d::r: is a valid ultra motion; :l: :d: :r: is a valid motion for Hazanshu). There are cases however where the diagonals have their permissiveness set to strict, so they have to be hit (eg. Guile's Ultra).
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    My only argument towards that is...you've seen what the required inputs are. 3 inputs are required for a shoryuken.

    People that try to say that :df::df::p: will work is a blatant lie. And while it's petty, I feel like it's something that needs to be extinguished from the mindset of players.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    snip

    I understand what you are saying about "lenient" and "strict" directional inputs, and I will add that later to the first post. But I think the shoryuken has a lenient forward, strict down, strict down-forward. But I'm not too sure, I'll test it later when i get my 360 back.
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    I understand what you are saying about "lenient" and "strict" directional inputs, and I will add that later to the first post. But I think the shoryuken has a lenient forward, strict down, strict down-forward. But I'm not too sure, I'll test it later when i get my 360 back.

    Nah he's correct, :df::df::df::p: / :df::df::r::p: works. However :df::df::d::p: doesn't.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Oh okay, my bad. I'll add it soon. Gotta do something right now.
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    Ilitirit, I understand we disagree on what is or is not a short-cut (personally, input leniency is just that. If a move requires 3 inputs, and you do 3 acceptable inputs, you haven't cut any corners. No short cut has been taken if a shoryuken requires 3 inputs and you perform 3 acceptable inputs. You've done something that, in previous incarnations of Street Fighter, used to not be possible, but the way they designed this game allows for it)...

    So according to my definition of what a short cut is, IE: a maneuver that reduces how many inputs are required for a move to occur, is Tenshin's input of: :r::db::l::k: a short cut or not?

    My opinion is that no, it's not a short cut if Tenshin requires 3 inputs (which it does according to the game code, which is all that I'm arguing) and you do 3 acceptable inputs. You've satisfied waht the game requires of you.

    The person that disagrees with me essentially says that because the game manual says otherwise, it's a shortcut.

    My opinion in a nutshell:
    :df::df::p: <-- Short cut if it actually worked
    :df::df::df::p: <-- Not a short cut since it satisfies the game's requirements for performing a shoryuken.
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • Pokey86Pokey86 Persistent Git Joined: Posts: 551
    Thread over. Stupidity breaker tripped.


    Mind telling me what i said that was stupid & setting me straight rather than posting something an invalid might jot down
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    Thanks for posting this, Richard.

    I'm tired of people complaining about 3P being the reason they miss their Ultras. I've said time and time again that that is a HUGE misconception, and that it's because they hit their buttons TOO EARLY. Super motions, as you said, require two full :qcf: motions unlike almost EVERY previous Street Fighter, where :qcf::d::df: was all that was needed. Thus, if you hit the buttons one frame too early, that old Super motion never had a full Super code inputted, so it registered as a DP instead since the DP code is in there. There was a reason Ryu's Super in ST was harder to pull off than the other characters: it was the only Super in that game that required the full :qcf::qcf: motion.

    To fix this, I ALWAYS advocate the "Tiger Knee" method of performing Ultras, which is:

    :qcf::qcf::uf: + 3P/3K

    This makes it so that if you tend to press buttons too early, you'll be pressing it at the final :r: instead of the :df:. That makes sure you come out with the Ultras more consistently.

    And just as an FYI for a technical reason why Code Shortcuts exist, it's REALLY EASY to state why. SF4 has one change in the game that did not exist in all previous games: switching between any of the 8 directions RE-REGISTERS ALL JOYSTICK INPUTS. Because a diagonal counts as both :r: and :d:, hitting the diagonal registers as both of those inputs. Now, in ALL OTHER Street Fighter games, shifting from :df: to :d: meant you let go of :r: and that's all. It never registered as :d: being pressed again.

    But in SF4, the game processes joystick inputs differently. Moving from :df: to :d: counts as PRESSING DOWN, not as anything being released, even though you've never let go of :d: the whole time. This is why Code Shortcuts work. So if you go from :df: to :d: back to :df:, the DP code gets processed because it registers the second input as pressing down again.

    The proof of this is that SF4 is the only game where you can input the Raging Demon by sliding the joystick from one position to another. It's really easy to do an anti-air Ultra Raging Demon with Akuma that is SUPER SAFE because you can actually hold :db: and tap :lp: twice (while Crouching) and then SLIDE the joystick to :l: and have it register as :l: being tapped. Then you can hit :lk: and then :hp: to activate Demon. Since the last part is you blocking, it's safe to do (if you did it too late, you'll Block their Jump Attack) and starting at :db: keeps you low when you :lp: so you can do the anti-air Demon really late.

    Conversely, you can also do the Kara-Raging Demon Super off of his Overhead REALLY EASILY because the opposite also holds true. Hold forward and hit :lp: + :mp: at the same time (the overhead will come out) and tap :lp: again. Instead of letting go of the joystick and tapping :r: again to register the joystick motion for the Demon, you actually only need to SLIDE THE JOYSTICK to :df:. In old games, this would NEVER have registered as a tap of :r: on the joystick, but because in SF4 all changes of the joystick re-register all inputs, it does in SF4. So after you slide the joystick, tap :lk: + :hp: and voila! Instant Kara-Raging Demon.

    Just some more info to add to this I think. I'm still debating whether or not I want to write a FAQ for this game like I did for CvS2 and Alpha 3 in the past, but if I do decide to write one, at least I know of someone I can get to help me out now. ^_^ Good shit, Richard!!

    - James
    http://jchensor.blogspot.com

    "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." -- Doyle Brunson

    "Every time you win, it diminishes the fear a little bit. You never really cancel the fear of losing; you keep challenging it." -- Arthur Ashe

    (AV art obtained from here: http://meatbun.us/blog/?p=162)
  • AyoChapAyoChap Reppin SoCal Joined: Posts: 230
    droolzorz. richard you are too sexy. have my children.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Hmm, thank you a lot James for the info. :tup: It looks like I might have overlooked the shortcuts a bit as well. I will test more as soon as possible.


    And I can't tell if that's Eric or Alex. Make an SRK account already, Alex!

    And thanks to all that repped me as well as those who just read the post. Much appreciation to you all.

    Thanks to the mod who stickied this! I hope all the SRK members can now get some useful info from the highly knowledgeable posters in this thread.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    Ilitirit, I understand we disagree on what is or is not a short-cut (personally, input leniency is just that.

    I tend not to get too hung up on the terms. To me, saying "shortcut" is just an easier way of talking about leniency on directional inputs or the ability to omit certains directions. eg down, forward x 2 is a "true" shortcut motion because the diagonals can be skipped (not that anyone would do that), and any forward, any down, any forward is a shortcut that refers to leniency on DP's. Applying the term to the latter description is obviously wrong, but that's exactly why I wanted to clarify the mechanism behind it. I'm not too fussy about the name of things as long as people understand how they work.


    Related to OP's comments on walking c.mk xx hadouken:
    Besides having a strict/lenient flag, directional inputs also have a delay flag which basically defines how long you have to enter the next input before the previous input is forgotten. One of the reasons it's much harder to do walking c.mk xx hadou is because the delay on a DP's input in this game is exceptionally high. The individual delays (I think) are 8, 8 and 11. So you can input :r: on frame 0, :d: on frame 8, :df: on frame 16, and press :p: on frame 27 and still get a DP. Contrast this with HDR with which allows for 16 frames in total for a DP, and ST which only allows for 8 frames for a guaranteed DP (the probability of the DP being executed decreases after that). So basically in SFIV you need to delay the between walking and crouching for at least 9 frames if you want to do walking hadou.

    You might also want to add the reversal window to the list of misconceptions. It's 4 frames, not 10 (as many people believe).
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    I tend not to get too hung up on the terms. To me, saying "shortcut" is just an easier way of talking about leniency on directional inputs or the ability to omit certains directions. eg down, forward x 2 is a "true" shortcut motion because the diagonals can be skipped (not that anyone would do that), and any forward, any down, any forward is a shortcut that refers to leniency on DP's. Applying the term to the latter description is obviously wrong, but that's exactly why I wanted to clarify the mechanism behind it. I'm not too fussy about the name of things as long as people understand how they work.


    Related to OP's comments on walking c.mk xx hadouken:
    Besides having a strict/lenient flag, directional inputs also have a delay flag which basically defines how long you have to enter the next input before the previous input is forgotten. One of the reasons it's much harder to do walking c.mk xx hadou is because the delay on a DP's input in this game is exceptionally high. The individual delays (I think) are 8, 8 and 11. So you can input :r: on frame 0, :d: on frame 8, :df: on frame 16, and press :p: on frame 27 and still get a DP. Contrast this with HDR with which allows for 16 frames in total for a DP, and ST which only allows for 8 frames for a guaranteed DP (the probability of the DP being executed decreases after that). So basically in SFIV you need to delay the between walking and crouching for at least 9 frames if you want to do walking hadou.

    You might also want to add the reversal window to the list of misconceptions. It's 4 frames, not 10 (as many people believe).

    Okay, first of all, my definition of a shortcut is a way to do a move that is not the same as it is shows in the command list.

    And are you sure about the leniency of the :d: of the shoryuken? I think it's strict, because wouldn't spamming :r: and :df: give out a shoryuken then? Last time I checked, this did not give a srk, but I can't test it right now. But if it doesn't, that means the :d: is a strict input. Also meaning :df: x 3 is not a shortcut for a srk

    Wow, but the rest of your post is perfect. I always wanted to know exactly how many frames the game "remembers" the inputs. Do you happen to know a site where it lists all of these input windows for every move?

    Oh, and thank you for pointing out the reversal windows. And do you have your source for this also? It's not that I don't believe you; I just want to read up more on what that site/thread has to say. Much props to you.


    So, keep up the good work, guys, and I'll review all upcoming comments and add them to the first post probably on Friday. Stupid finals... :tdown:


    Edit: Oh and Mr. James Chen, that thing where you were talking about the Kara Super Raging Demon works in 3s also. I'm not sure about the :lp:+:mp: part (but I don't see why it wouldn't work) but I'm positive that the part of sliding from :r: to :df: works in 3s.
  • TheKingSethTheKingSeth Joined: Posts: 213
    this helped me alot.
    Also, I love when i do counterhit c.hp -> tiger uppercut in combo with sagat. its great damage!
    Bring back j.long arms to Seth!
  • TheKingSethTheKingSeth Joined: Posts: 213
    HOLD ON FOR A MINUTE

    This statement is not true:
    Trip Guard
    Okay, so I have not really tested out too much for trip guard in SF4, but it indeed exists. Trip guard basically says that when you do an empty jump (jump but don't do any move), you can block (or whatever else you want) as soon as you land back on the ground. However, if you instead do a jump and do an attack in the air, when you land you cannot block for the first few frames when you're on the floor. I'm not too sure how many frames exactly, so a clarification would be nice here. Also, in my testings in SF3:3s, you can still choose whether or not to stand up or crouch on the first frame you land; it's just that you can't block. Not sure if it's like that in SF4, but be assured I will test it later.
    Is that really true? How come seths super can take emty jumps if you do correct timing?
    Bring back j.long arms to Seth!
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    HOLD ON FOR A MINUTE

    This statement is not true:


    Is that really true? How come seths super can take emty jumps if you do correct timing?

    That is because Seth's super and ultra can hit you when you're still airborne.
  • yebyeb AE元是我最喜欢的。 Joined: Posts: 442
    SRK motions are definitely lenient on each input, and :r::df::r: works. It's the only annoying "shortcut" to me, because it triggers when I hesitate between a crouching or standing poke and I don't think it would have happened in other games. Even :uf::db::uf: counts though, since it covers all the lenient forward-down-forward inputs.

    Anyway, some info on landing frames/trip guard:

    -After a jump, there are 4 landing frames where you cannot walk/dash/jump again.
    -If you empty jump, you can block immediately upon landing (standing or crouching, no difference), or do an attack the instant you land.
    -If you attack in the air, then you cannot block for the first 2 frames when you land, and can't attack for all 4 landing frames.
    -You can always tech throws that grab you during your landing frames.
    -If you attack in air and then attempt to attack during your landing frames, the attack will be buffered and performed as soon as the landing frames are over.

    Important:
    The landing frame buffer is particularly weird, and I think most people don't know what effect it can have. If you try a link combo on the ground, your muscle memory is going to be based on a move taking X number of frames to hit. If you try the same link combo off a jump in though, and you press the first button during the landing frames, the attack won't come out right away. The game still registers the attack, but it won't be performed until AFTER the landing frames, so the attack can effectively take a couple extra frames to hit. This changes the timing for links, and can easily cause you to drop combos that you do by muscle memory. The way to avoid that problem is to manually delay your attack slightly when you land, so you don't time it during the landing frames.

    Anyway, how landing frames affect safe jumps:

    -Invincible attacks that hit on the 3rd frame or faster cannot be safe jumped (your attack would whiff during their 1st startup frame and they'd hit you during your 2nd landing frame).
    -Wakeups that are 4-5 frames can be safe jumped, but can't be hit by option selects.
    -Wakeups that are 6 frames or slower can be safe jumped, and then hit by your own invincible move as an option select.
    -Invincible command throws cannot be safe jumped. Even though you can block, they grab you before you can do something that would actually avoid them, like jumping or DPing.
    Super Street Fighter 4: Chinese Edition.
    yeb likes this game.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,373
    And are you sure about the leniency of the :d: of the shoryuken? I think it's strict, because wouldn't spamming :r: and :df: give out a shoryuken then? Last time I checked, this did not give a srk, but I can't test it right now. But if it doesn't, that means the :d: is a strict input. Also meaning :df: x 3 is not a shortcut for a srk
    There's a bit of ambiguity with diagonals as they pertain to shortcuts and I'm not quite sure what the rules are regarding them. But the :d: on DP's is definitely lenient. It's why you get teleport when you try to do Bison's Ultra from a crouch block position and end on :df:
    Wow, but the rest of your post is perfect. I always wanted to know exactly how many frames the game "remembers" the inputs. Do you happen to know a site where it lists all of these input windows for every move?
    The values I got were actually recorded by noodalls using frame-accurate hardware macros, but you can examine the inputs (in hexadecimal) if you hack apart the files from the PC version. The value for the delay is coded on every input, but I'm not sure if it's a 1:1 relationship between the actual hex value and the with the number of in-game frames. (EDIT: I checked the file and the delay values for SRK appear to be 0x08, 0x08, 0x0C, which translates into 8, 8, and 12 delay frames respectively)
    Oh, and thank you for pointing out the reversal windows. And do you have your source for this also? It's not that I don't believe you; I just want to read up more on what that site/thread has to say. Much props to you.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7442205&postcount=47
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7621688&postcount=367
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    Ughhhhhhhhh, why is Yeb so godlike?! And it was fun playing against you. I hope you like Tiger Uppercuts even more now. :razzy: But you are even gdlk in your knowledge. Thank you.

    And thanks ilitirit as well!
  • a falling mangoa falling mango NO-YOU-CAN-NOT Joined: Posts: 709
    Another extremely common example is when a player tries to walk forward and immediately do a crouching forward cancelled into a hadouken. So, you're giving the game engine the input of :r::d::df::r: + :lp:. As many of you probably know by now, if you try to do this, all you will be getting is a crouching forward cancelled into a shoryuken, NOT a hadouken. That is because a shoryuken has more move priority then a hadouken. The way to avoid the shoryuken and get the hadouken instead is to walk forward, then WAIT (have your stick anywhere except :r: or :df:), and then do the qcf+p. The reason you wait is to have the game engine "forget" that you pressed the first :r: and will not confuse your motion to become a dp.

    You do not have to pause before executing :r:, :d::mk:, :qcf::lp:

    :r:, :d::mk:, :d::mk:, :qcf::lp: will always give you hadou

    EDIT: To clarify, double tap :mk:
    "At least [Vega] was a FUNCTIONAL fagg in ST" - wrrza AV by csphere
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I have one nitpick about your first post: light attacks cannot be plinked into one another effectively.

    Consider the input display of a typical plink:

    B A
    A

    If you timed your link properly, you will get button A and you would think that your plink was effective. However, if you timed the a frame early, A+B will come out. In effective plinks, button A is a stronger attack than button B so that A always wins out when both buttons are pressed at the same time in any other situation.

    Long story short: Zangief will eventually get a whiffed throw if he attempts to plink his low Shorts.
  • LollaffLollaff Joined: Posts: 217
    Great stuff. Could you add something about stuns aswell? I mean how to most efficiently get out of them, if there's a difference between stuns(birds, stars, skulls) etc.
  • Richard NguyenRichard Nguyen !! Joined: Posts: 723
    I have one nitpick about your first post: light attacks cannot be plinked into one another effectively.

    Consider the input display of a typical plink:

    B A
    A

    If you timed your link properly, you will get button A and you would think that your plink was effective. However, if you timed the a frame early, A+B will come out. In effective plinks, button A is a stronger attack than button B so that A always wins out when both buttons are pressed at the same time in any other situation.

    Long story short: Zangief will eventually get a whiffed throw if he attempts to plink his low Shorts.

    But if you're crouching, :lp:+:lk: is like a crouch tech, which gives out a short (because you cannot grab while crouching). So, standing/crouching jab and standing short cannot be plinked. Only crouching short can be plinked.

    But thanks, Jinrai for the post. You're the one I learned much about the 3s game mechanics! :china:
    Oro ftw btw. :rock:


    Great stuff. Could you add something about stuns aswell? I mean how to most efficiently get out of them, if there's a difference between stuns(birds, stars, skulls) etc.

    Oh yeah, I remember finding some info about this. I believe the stun animation of bird, stars, etc. is determined by the last hit that hits them and character-specific. But I'm not too sure; I'm pretty sure Jinrai would know this though. What's the answer? :wonder:
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm an idiot. Yeah, there's that whole crouching thing to think about. However, CHAINED moves still cannot be plinked.

    As far as dizzies go, I would imagine they act similarly to 3S in that the game randomly assigns a set number of frames for you to recover without mashing, while each button/joystick input reduces that amount by an additional frame. I doubt that there is any difference between birds, stars, and skulls like there is in ST because IIRC the arcade version only had stars.

    In 3S, the move that stuns you affects the relative severity of the stun. I don't know if that's the case in SF4, but if it is you should be able to notice a difference if you try dizzying with a Jab, Fierce, special move, throw, or special throw several times each.
  • scaryxitedscaryxited Joined: Posts: 16
    So, with Super/Ultra motions the game will remember your inputs for quite a while. So, if you mash every directional input (aka 360's clockwise) fast enough, the game will finally register those 6 (or 5 with the shortcut) directional inputs you need for the super.
    So it basically looks like this:
    :d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf: :r: :df::d::db::l::ub::u::uf::r::df:
    *..........................*.*..........................*........................*....

    About this. If the quick string of stick inputs contain the motions for both Goukens counter and ultra does that mean you could simply press p then 3p to get the counter to cancel into ultra? Or does the game forget the prevous inputs once a special comes out? It shouldn't thou since you can do Roes spiral to super with only 2 qcf.
  • KichKich Joined: Posts: 1,126
    About this. If the quick string of stick inputs contain the motions for both Goukens counter and ultra does that mean you could simply press p then 3p to get the counter to cancel into ultra? Or does the game forget the prevous inputs once a special comes out? It shouldn't thou since you can do Roes spiral to super with only 2 qcf.

    Well given that Akuma is the only character that can cancel into their ultra...
    I hit confirm with standing fierce punch.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    About this. If the quick string of stick inputs contain the motions for both Goukens counter and ultra does that mean you could simply press p then 3p to get the counter to cancel into ultra? Or does the game forget the prevous inputs once a special comes out? It shouldn't thou since you can do Roes spiral to super with only 2 qcf.

    Well it doesn't forget the inputs, and I think goukens counter works like this as well: Akuma can somehow cancel his shaku into another special move where the flame from the shaku comes out, and then the other special move executes over top of it. I'd like some one to explain how that one works in the SF4 engine.

    All of akumas special moves can do it, including a flaming dragon punch, super/ultra. The easiest one is flaming ex tatsu = :df: :qcb: :lp:, :lp: :lk: :mk:, where the punch is plinked with the kicks.
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